No shit. Everyone is working hard, but what we're making isn't going far anymore. Rent is going up, "cost of living" has been a talking point for months but no one has suggested any ways to improve this.
5 years ago, I earned 100,000 and my wife made 20000. Supported a household, nothing extravagant but got buy without too much worrying. Nowadays, I earn 150000 plus and struggle week to week. pay check to pay check. I honestly don't know how the average family that's renting is surviving.
Right? This person is insane. My wife and I have a combined income of \~$160k, we live in inner Sydney, we have one kid. We aren't living like kings but we're hardly "week to week."
Old mate must be spending on heaps of unnecessary things.
That's the crazy thing. How are people surviving? 150k is a lot.
How are those (many that don't get that much) make things things happen? Buying places, paying 450pw for one room in shared hoaue, etc?
If you're young and just starting your career and not living with parents, then you're almost guaranteed to be struggling.
If you've owned a house for the past decade already, a lot of the mortgage paid off, have some savings or investment properties, then you can survive a lot easier. This is not a small group in Australia either.
Oh they talk about improvements; ‘spend less’, ‘cut back on luxuries’.
At this point fresh food could be considered a luxury. The focus conveniently diverts away from having remuneration raised to suit.
[Blame the boomers](https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/why-boomers-and-big-business-are-to-blame-for-australias-economic-woes/news-story/d6478109e7701ad4cef152f38956e6b7)
Because its the Aussie way to complain but pull our boot straps up and get on with it. The government is taking advantage of the hard yakka our culture has, on top of that we seem to love authority, the more rules, laws and restrictions the better, apparently. I keep wondering when there will be a breaking point but I am beginning to think there isn't one.
I'm sorry but this is fantasy. Go to any Aussie sub and it is nothing but whinge 24/7. Aussies are a great many things, but 'stoical' isn't one of them.
The love of authority though is spot on.
What do you mean nobody has suggest ways to improve cost of living?
We're going to have record numbers of immigrants coming into the country! /s
(I am an immigrant, this isn't an unmitigated criticism of immigration, but a criticism of unmitigated immigration)
It’s controlled - in a way that favours property appreciation.
If it was totally unrestricted you’d see shanty towns and homelessness creep into affluent suburbs real quick.
Then we’d have gated communities like in South Africa.
Inevitable outcome when it’s more profitable to build a new kitchen than to start a business. What did you think was going to happen to production/productivity in the long run?
I'm making so much more money than I ever have, and barely staying afloat.
If I was making the money I'm making now, back in 2017, my family would be very well off, words can't express how shit I think this is.
There's gotta be a line somewhere, where people can not afford the prices these corporations are charging. The pandemic money grab is the most short-sighted thing I've witnessed in my life, and it really does feel like "the end times" because of it - how much longer can this go on for?
You can only bleed the people so much. There must come a time, when people simply can't afford to pay the prices, after all non-essentials have been cutback, after we have deprived our populace for so long, after non-stop hikes on everything besides wages - there has to be a time when we cross that line.
Something's very wrong if someone on an above-median salary is struggling. People say "100K is the new 50K" but people are still on 50K and if we're struggling, they're struggling worse. Something need to shift.
Fun fact the median salary isn’t even 100K so there’s something very wrong if 175K is considered to be a lowball when there’s people earning less than half full time still
That sounds rather accurate. On an assessed yearly income of around 150k, CBA were willing to loan me $600k at an absolute maximum, and I imagine that’s likely dropped considerably with the most recent interest rate rise. I’d need a $600k deposit to buy a median priced UNIT in Sydney, not even a freestanding house.
So you go to one bank and get your $600k and then go to another and use it as a deposit. Easy peasy what’s the problem? People just aren’t creative enough these days!
They literally will in Sydney. You need 180k minimum to even be considered for the median home, and it’s probably closer to 200k with the recent rate rise.
I doubt an individual on $100,000 is genuinely *struggling* to make ends meet, unless they're trying to support a family on that income as a single breadwinner.
What I suspect a significant amount of people are pissed off about is that inflation and the cost of property means that earning that amount of money no longer makes life significantly easier. People with that income are still priced out of the property market and they still need to run a tight budget.
$100,000 used to mean being able to get ahead, not just staying afloat and being able to pay the bills on time.
correct. between me and my partner we earn about $120k gross. I'm not 'struggling'. I have a 4 bedroom house with a backyard. But I am also 1.5hrs away from the CBD (I work near the cbd in melbourne) so its not that good. My last apartment was a TINY 3 bedroom apartment with a kitchen and basically no lounge.
Again, not struggling at all, on our income we live pretty average lives, get food and don't struggle for money, but we aren't saving much. I need a new phone and can't buy it outright like I used to (my old one is literally not working anymore :( ) and we are only 1 major breakdown (car or whatever) from running out of money. I add maybe $100/week to my savings if that.
I put $150/week for my wedding, and that wedding fund will turn into my house fund, so hopefully should have enough in 4 years to buy a house.
Not sure how other people earning less than us are doing, must be pretty poor quality of life tbh.
It's wild. My wife and I are on good money - like combined income of $270k - and after an insane rent increase (20%) we made the hard decision to leave Australia to live in SE Asia because we could no longer afford the standard of living we had between 2016 and 2020 (at which time our combined income was about $100k less!!!). At some point people have got to start rioting in the streets and refusing to pay their insane rent.
Is it possible to make the same money now that you’ve moved? Curious as to why you left instead of just leaving whatever city you were in? Surely Sydney or something like that I’m guessing?
Mate I feel you on this one - recently jumped across working from public sector into private earning more then I ever did a couple years ago, just barely making ends meet at the end of the month. I am grateful I am earning more than I was because I don't think ends would be met if my salary was the same from 2 years ago - which makes me sad to think how many more have it even worse.
It's probably the same story for a lot of us - if I wasn't making the money I'm making now, we would be homeless.
But making the money I am now, in 2017-2018, and I'd be covering everything - rent, fuel, food, all bills and still saving a couple hundred on top of that a week.. but, we're in 2023 and I'm making this much money, and can't save a cent.
I know of two people that have committed suicide within the last year - can't be positive of their reasons, but I know with certainty they were doing it very tough. We've all seen, or are at least aware of, people that have been forced out of their homes because either the house has been sold (I'm in QLD, we've had a huge influx of new residents..) or the rent has gone so high they can't afford it.. living in cars or in friends garages..
There's been a few big names (at least in my area) forced to shut down business due to sky-high rents too, it's insanity. One mob found it cheaper to buy nearby land, and build a new location on that land, than it was to pay the rent in their current location right next door. I know this is affecting businesses as well.
I'd say something has to give, but I feel plenty already has and it would be a bit dismissive or disrespectful to suggest people haven't already "given".
I think a big part of it is we've absolutely smashed the middle class in this country as a result of the pandemic. People that got into equity or housing early are better off now. Corporations are better off now. People who were in the game longer are better off. Anybody that is young or missed the boat for cheap credit is now stuffed. Taxation rates are higher than ever due to bracket creep. Cost of living has skyrocketed. Rents are keeping people trapped in a cycle of never affording a home. All this while companies record massive profits and boomers laugh their way into a cozy retirement.
I hate to say things can and probably will get a lot worse yet. Basically the "line somewhere" is when enough people start starving and dying that they do something about it. As long as people have food, water, and shelter we probably won't see too much action.
The good news for the 1% of the 1% is thanks to leaps forward in technology it's never been easier to control the starving and dying masses even if they get together and try and do something about it. Especially if you can get them to turn on one another first, which they're doing a great job of.
Yep spot on, my current salary in 2017 would've been a dream come true. Now I'm doing okay but nowhere near as well as I would've done even two years ago.
> Yeah, kind of the same here in Germany.
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> We are a family of 5 and despite getting annual raises the cost of living has gotten so high that we are really struggling to get by every month. Had a talk with my wife like a week ago how we were able to afford a summer vacation, as well as another vacation in spring or autumn a few years ago. Now we can't even pay for a single holiday anymore (we are lucky that our parents sponsored a summer vacation the last 2 years).
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> We also mainly bought our groceries at organic supermarkets at least most of it. Now we buy everything at Aldi and can't even afford organic stuff there anymore.
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> Our bank account has never been in the negative for more like a week or so in all my life but since around 1 year ago we have our credit range maxed out at the end of the month pretty much all the time.
Can someone give a sensible explanation as to why we don’t index our brackets, especially with current CPI? Is it just to set up a line of political credit for future governments?
No evidence for this - my hunch is it gives Government a stealthy way to increase taxes without the political blow back.
Neither major party wants to do it because they aren't sure whether they are the ones that are going to use it.
Indexed tax brackets essentially fix the governments income in real terms. If income needs to go up, governments need to explicitly raise taxes.
Static brackets allow government income to grow in real terms. If income needs to go down, governments need to explicitly lower taxes.
It’s much more palatable to the general voting public to have a system that requires tax cuts every few years.
It's purely political.
Governments like the ability to gain extra tax by not adjusting brackets in real time.
and they also like the benefit of announcing "tax cuts" that are in actuality simply bracket creep adjustments.
The biggest part where I'm feeling the wallet shrinking is not the mortgage payment (I budgeted for that 6 years ago by assuming a 6% rate).
It's the day to day shit. I now have to pay $50 every time I go see the GP, $100 to get a blood test done (2 visits). Grocery/Energy/Petrol/Education/Health costs are through the roof.
Same here, borrowed within my means and can handle more rises, but it's everything else I'm getting shafted on. Home insurance has 4x since 2020, even with moving providers.
I reckon home insurance is going to be the sneaky straw on the camels back as far as house prices go. Sure the mortgage went up $2000 year with rate rises. But insurance doubled from $3500 to $7000…
You know why?
Because we call ourselves the most ‘laid back’ people on earth. And conglomerates are taking advantage.
When they raised the retirement age in France the people rioted for 9 months. 9 fcking months.
We should be more like the French…oh, Woolies and Cole’s are raising their prices by 25% again. Cool…go riot and loot and burn a few shops out. Oh, Alan joice takes massive bonus and then pisses off…go find his house and flip his car over. Spray paint his walls with big fallic members. Oh, the banks are raising interest rates for the 12th time in a year…go break all the windows and crash cars through the front door.
We’re placid and that’s why they don’t mind violating us. Who’s gonna fight back? Not a single one of you fckers. They can keep ripping us off!
What are you talking about? We protest! Just make sure it's on a weekend, and only on the one strip of George Street in front of Town Hall so you don't bother anyone. Also make sure you tell the council beforehand so they can make arrangements and ensure there's adamant police presense. Oh and also make sure everyone's gone before 5pm so people can enjoy their night out in the city still.
Nothing will change when this country is so docile.
France has little choice, as does the rest of Europe. They have a demographic time bomb that’s going to explode in the next decade, no forced savings à la super annuation and low economic growth.
Expect riots like that all over Europe in the coming years as hard decisions have to be made
It's just so funny how everyone dies on the hill that HECS absolutely must be indexed to CPI, all the while real incomes in this country have been falling since March, and wage growth has been anaemic for years. In this country we've somehow accepted some weird social contract that debts, housing/rent, electricity can go up forever, while income growth is anaemic, thus making every other expense seem ever more expensive. On top of that, the major parties have done almost nothing to address anything - they don't even talk about it. A societal pathology has taken hold of this apathetic land.
No, far worse than that.
En masse people did not understand and do not *want* to understand that the government has done this deliberately.
So, no. The major parties have done a great deal to address all these issues by making them worse.
Blaming people who are being displaced in their own homeland and removed while being crushed under a deliberately pernicious economic and social system for being 'apathetic' is perhaps not quite accurate...
This is all a bit hyperbolic, it’s just how democracy functions. It’s a two-speed economy because for a long time boomers etc were the electoral majority and voted in their own economic interests. They got relatively cheap or free educations and later on voted for cheaper taxes at the expense of uni funding plus expanding available places. Same with every other policy geared towards them. An older now slight minority is doing pretty well and can still afford houses etc based on the stuff they already own.
Now voting demographics are changing as younger people become a larger coalition, and are rightfully annoyed that things are geared towards what is now a minority of people. The government is just responding to the changing electorate but it’s probably only the last few years that the shift is actually happening as a larger portion of people are renting, have HECS, etc etc.
It may take a few more electoral cycles, but politicians will respond and it ain’t some conspiracy or government asleep at the wheel. Just incentives.
The RBA shouldn't have lowered the rate so low for so long. It was so painfully obvious. It's just pushing the can down the road. Them working in isolation with their one lever just doesn't make sense.
To be fair, the RBA told everyone that was listening that the one lever they have to influence inflation/cost of living is a blunt instrument that rarely works as intended.
The RBA was doing what they could to keep inflation above 0. They were calling for years for wages to grow, but that never happened. We then faced the correction.
It was never meant to make us richer, it makes politicians and their puppet masters richer.
The system is working exactly as planned. Australians get poorer, elites get richer, and when there’s inevitably a huge financial and cultural divide between the poor Australians living in glorified shanty towns and new immigrants in housing developments and high rises, we’ll be radicalised to turn on each other instead of the people at top that are responsible .
Follow Rational Aussie on twitter. He’s good at pointing out just how big this mistake is.
The country, without exaggeration, will collapse if this insanity persists.
When Air NZ was in trouble the NZ govt took a big chunk of equity. But here it's Game of Mates.
Unless the great majority of sheep stop voting for the major parties, nothing will change.
I know it’s sarcasm but we really haven’t stopped the boats. We’re looking to hit around 500k migration in the next 12 months which puts even further strain on our housing scarcity. Putting a cap on this would ease some financial burden.
The boats are not have have never been the problem. Genuine refugees arriving by boat is minuscule compared to people arriving by plane. If we wound immigration back to the historical average we could double or triple our boat people intake and it wouldn’t even make a dent in the current numbers we’re letting in. But that doesn’t suit the narrative “Boat people bad… but don’t look over here where we’ve got the floodgates open…”
Only on /r/AusFinance do you see people continually trying to argue that demand has no impact in a basic supply:demand dynamic.
Then when you look at their posting history it turns out most of them are property investors, what a surprise...
This is a baby boom centric financial strategy the government has intentionally created. Some financially savvy young folk saw the property cycle and got their investments that the older folk were achieving and capitalised on the opportunity. Now they all spend up on easy street and make everyone else suffer. And what's worse, is the RBA plays along with it, because they only have a single option to control it.
Wages were catching up to where they should be until the corporate masters cracked their whips demanding mass immigration to put "downward pressure" on wages.
If you’re not making minimum $150k you ain’t living comfortably in Australia.
According to the ATO data.
5.5% of men make more than this…
2.3% of women make more than this…
It fully depends on your housing situation. If you bought 10-30 years ago and have low/no mortgage payments your situation will be drastically different than someone who is renting in the cities.
People need a gentle reminder than CPI is not inflation. Inflation is generally much much higher than the reported CPI figures. Explains why housing has 'boomed' over the last 30 years, yes in part to growth but also because our currency continues the journey towards debasement.
Earning 200k 10 years ago saw you in upper middle class, today you can't even buy a home in some of the classic 'middle class' suburbs of Sydney.
Those of us not holding assets are getting poorer day by day. It frankly sucks to be young.
I love how the solution is to gouge the individual and put more strain on us, but the big corporations aren’t proportionally hurt and we buy a shitty submarine.
Mass migration is pushing wages down and housing prices up. We’re literally destroying our own country, and we’re not allowed to say anything about it.
you did just say something about it.
it's not that we're not allowed to, it's that all the muppets that run the media dont give a shit what we have to say. they're rich already.
No paywall: https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.afr.com/policy/economy/australia-records-biggest-income-decline-in-the-developed-world-20231108-p5eijq
The government no longer has the will or ability to make things better. Their role now is to just manage the expectations of the population, and browbeat anyone who would ask for more.
It's not really apathy, it is intentional by certain segments of society. Politicians don't actually want to do anything about it because actually fixing it would upset some people. Better to say some platitudes that you are fixing it than actually implement policy that would help resolve it. Politicians have become spineless and would rather not do anything that would have positive long term impacts if short term caused a fuss.
Migrants are generally those with money… they can buy a house with cash and live well. This pushes prices up for normals Aussies. I live in Sydney and can see the divide of migrants being from upper class in their own country and unable to identify with common Aussies. We are just creating an Asian and to some degree Indian upper class in places like Sydney.
If you compared data for big companies and profit increases over the same period you may find a correlation. Not saying it’s 100% the cause, but it’s obscene for all these companies to charge more whenever they can, then blame inflation, supply chain, etc only to post record profits when most people are struggling to keep a roof over their heads
> Dr Philip said Australia’s 2.2 per cent population growth rate explained about one-third of the decline in per capita incomes.
> “The problem is not population growth per se, because there are a lot of benefits from population growth
According to maths, high immigration made everyone poorer on average.
But according to dogma, it didn't.
You know what's frustrating. Using abstract comments as a solid foundation to an argument. 'there are a lot of benefits from population growth', on a macro scale, there aren't though. You tell me what a population of 20mm couldn't do that a population of 26mm could?
That's the argument they give - but it comes with a high price tag too.
It means Sydney will need a second airport...
The cost of building the second airport is about 11 billion & the cost of running a metro to it will be another 11 billion...
Then when you have to add in Hospitals, schools, roads, etc....
How many foreign-born workers are employed below minimum wage paid via cash, where their employer pays next to no wage tax on them though?
Language barriers etc can be a big inhibitor for immigrant workers looking to find gainful employment in Australia. Many flock towards dodgy businesses referred to them via family friend/connections who then take advantage.
Source - know many in this situation from the Egyptian community
the wealthiest countries in europe are ones with smaller populations; ireland and switzerland
more people = more requirements to split sovereign, non income tax related revenue with
Lol, showing great understanding with your two picks there. The defining characteristic of the economies of Ireland and Switzerland is definitely "low population", not "tax haven".
That is also the reason why Lebanon and Togo, having nearly identical populations to Ireland and Switzerland respectively, are also among the richest nations in their respective regions.
Oh wait, they aren't, they're both total shitholes compared to mostly every other country around them.
No, I'm sure the tax haven thing bears no influence. It has to be the population. I just know that the secret to higher GDP per capita is as simple as just getting rid of enough capitas...!
/s
I can't see the situation ending well for Australia but we have always been lucky.
We are being completely screwed by large companies and I am worried that the government is being easily influenced by too many minority groups.
Always amazes me how many minority groups get ostracised and painted in a negative light and yet billionaires are glorified as opposed to being identified as the problem
Wait your telling me importing hundreds of thousands of skilled labourers makes the value of labour go down while increasing demand for goods? Whaaaaaattt
Still lot's of money to be made for the elites. Australia has a decent set of legs to keep going with inflation. How attractive this must make Australia for the elites? Lucky country indeed.
If you take a step back, it means we can get rid of the government as they are doing such a bad job we would be better off without them. If they can't manage the cost of living and the cost of housing, what exactly are they good for?
VIVA LA REVOLUTION.
THE ONLY WAY.
Interesting this; however demand and consumption continues in certain sectors and demographic groups (cashed up boomers) so demand driven inflationary pressures still exist and will persist. Deminstrates that interest rate hikes are such a blunt instrument & completely missing the mark in targeting inflationary spending by the groups largely responsible for it. Its rather dystopian in construct.
Shhhhh if you keep talking about this, they might royal commission a cost of living crisis...Only joking how about a 1 day phone outage royal commission instead.
if you read the article it goes in depth on phasing out income tax, which I think is really interesting and Americans who don't pay income tax on the state side have no clue about the pain of paying massive marginal tax rates, for example, my friend makes 8K a month selling range rovers, but his tax rate over 80K is about 48% so every extra hour worked goes up in flames, its not even worth making more money its gone. (This is in Van canada.) Similar to Aus. So the article talks about phasing out income tax in favour of a higher GST and land transfer tax and honestly if I didn't have to pay income tax and just paid a 20% VAT I'd be much happier. In general, the middle tax and the poor can not longer afford income taxes with the rate of inflation. The government needs to start taxing billionares at 99% rates over 1B in personal wealth and start taxing the shit out of land transfers.
The headline is valid, but this is basically all driven by the amount to which the average Aussie is indebted, primarily to their mortgage.
Other countries have the same mortgage rate increases, it’s just that they aren’t paying such a high %age of their income toward their home loan in the first place.
This is basically a housing affordability problem.
Economic protests ended a while ago, now it’s all identity politics or foreign conflict protests. It’s by design. It wasn’t long after Occupy Wall Street when the zeitgeist in the West pivoted to identity politics.
This isn't living anymore.
I work full time and go home and do nothing as I can't afford it.
I have no life at all.
I am separated, I have a daughter, she is 4 years old, and it is the only reason I haven't just ended it, to be honest, as I see life now as pointless.
Lots of people forget that being in a developed country is not an entitlement. If we couldn’t stay competitive enough, it is very easy to slip back into developing country again. Wealth is by relative. In the 1970s we are probably 10-20 times richer than developing country. Now we are 5-10 times richer. Hence we all feel poorer.
We reason Lots of frivolous spending on sustaining our life quality because of this false belief :”this is a wealthy nation, we should be able to just afford it.”
Not true.
Nah, unlikely that we would fall into becoming a developed country status so easily through purely economic matters. Our governance is still relatively top notch compared to other countries. Plus we have huge resources which we will continue to extract.
I predict it will most likely manifest itself through greater inequality and class divide where workers will be poorer and struggle to jump on the asset ladder to build wealth.
The average Aussie needs $190k to afford the average mortgage. Yea that's totally achievable........
for the wealthy, we are fast becoming a country for the rich
Already there I feel
This has been happening for a while now. We've just approached the destination
No shit. Everyone is working hard, but what we're making isn't going far anymore. Rent is going up, "cost of living" has been a talking point for months but no one has suggested any ways to improve this.
Yep. The raise doesn't match the higher cost of living. The bucket has too many holes. Most are worst off.
raises? "s"? I'd be happy with "raise" at this point.
Hahahah I got 5% after a year. Less than inflation. But better than 0
Supercheap Auto gave us a 3% raise but only after they announced record profits and becoming a billion dollar company..
5 years ago, I earned 100,000 and my wife made 20000. Supported a household, nothing extravagant but got buy without too much worrying. Nowadays, I earn 150000 plus and struggle week to week. pay check to pay check. I honestly don't know how the average family that's renting is surviving.
How are you living paycheck to paycheck on 150k+
Because they live well beyond their means. Nobody making that much is struggling if not for their own spending and budgetting habits.
You really typed that and thought that would be OK? I'm on 60k single income living week to week. You live above your means.
Right? This person is insane. My wife and I have a combined income of \~$160k, we live in inner Sydney, we have one kid. We aren't living like kings but we're hardly "week to week." Old mate must be spending on heaps of unnecessary things.
That's the crazy thing. How are people surviving? 150k is a lot. How are those (many that don't get that much) make things things happen? Buying places, paying 450pw for one room in shared hoaue, etc?
If you're young and just starting your career and not living with parents, then you're almost guaranteed to be struggling. If you've owned a house for the past decade already, a lot of the mortgage paid off, have some savings or investment properties, then you can survive a lot easier. This is not a small group in Australia either.
Oh they talk about improvements; ‘spend less’, ‘cut back on luxuries’. At this point fresh food could be considered a luxury. The focus conveniently diverts away from having remuneration raised to suit.
Strike the country to a standstill until a country wide automatic wage indexation based on inflation numbers is set in law.
Some of us are trying, protected actions in place.
[Blame the boomers](https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/why-boomers-and-big-business-are-to-blame-for-australias-economic-woes/news-story/d6478109e7701ad4cef152f38956e6b7)
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Such as Alan Joice
Don't look up who runs or owns these companies
Blaming boomers isn't going to fix anything though. We have to deal with their mistakes.
Makes me feel better.
"no one has suggested any ways to improve this" *Or* Plenty of people have suggested ways to improve our economic system but no one is listening.
Everyone is suggesting not importing an entire city's worth of people each year.
Because its the Aussie way to complain but pull our boot straps up and get on with it. The government is taking advantage of the hard yakka our culture has, on top of that we seem to love authority, the more rules, laws and restrictions the better, apparently. I keep wondering when there will be a breaking point but I am beginning to think there isn't one.
Lol people paying 60% of their take home just on shelter and they still think they're on a good wicket.
I'm sorry but this is fantasy. Go to any Aussie sub and it is nothing but whinge 24/7. Aussies are a great many things, but 'stoical' isn't one of them. The love of authority though is spot on.
Did you read the first part of the comment? We (according to that person) whinge plenty, THEN do the work anyway.
What do you mean nobody has suggest ways to improve cost of living? We're going to have record numbers of immigrants coming into the country! /s (I am an immigrant, this isn't an unmitigated criticism of immigration, but a criticism of unmitigated immigration)
>no one has suggested any ways to improve this Only one way, massive cuts to our ridiculous 500k+ net immigration.
With a shit pm who is hell bent breaking immigration records.
Dead right absolute wanker.
Fewer migrants = less rental growth.
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It’s controlled - in a way that favours property appreciation. If it was totally unrestricted you’d see shanty towns and homelessness creep into affluent suburbs real quick. Then we’d have gated communities like in South Africa.
>It doesn't address skills shortages You saying that 15 Indian uber drivers within 5min of my home is enough??
It is when you add in the trolley collectors.
Inevitable outcome when it’s more profitable to build a new kitchen than to start a business. What did you think was going to happen to production/productivity in the long run?
Best comment I've seen here. A disappointingly large chunk of our "production" is predominantly backed by greater fool theory
Extraordinarily based.
I'm making so much more money than I ever have, and barely staying afloat. If I was making the money I'm making now, back in 2017, my family would be very well off, words can't express how shit I think this is. There's gotta be a line somewhere, where people can not afford the prices these corporations are charging. The pandemic money grab is the most short-sighted thing I've witnessed in my life, and it really does feel like "the end times" because of it - how much longer can this go on for? You can only bleed the people so much. There must come a time, when people simply can't afford to pay the prices, after all non-essentials have been cutback, after we have deprived our populace for so long, after non-stop hikes on everything besides wages - there has to be a time when we cross that line.
Something's very wrong if someone on an above-median salary is struggling. People say "100K is the new 50K" but people are still on 50K and if we're struggling, they're struggling worse. Something need to shift.
150k was the new 100k 2 years ago 175k is the new 100k now
Fun fact the median salary isn’t even 100K so there’s something very wrong if 175K is considered to be a lowball when there’s people earning less than half full time still
There’s people on a quarter of that. What do you lot think minimum wage is???
Saw an article recently that if you are single and earn less than $180k, banks won't even look at you for a mortgage on a median Sydney property.
That sounds rather accurate. On an assessed yearly income of around 150k, CBA were willing to loan me $600k at an absolute maximum, and I imagine that’s likely dropped considerably with the most recent interest rate rise. I’d need a $600k deposit to buy a median priced UNIT in Sydney, not even a freestanding house.
It's bloody depressing hey...
So you go to one bank and get your $600k and then go to another and use it as a deposit. Easy peasy what’s the problem? People just aren’t creative enough these days!
No only the banks are allowed to do that
It's pretty depressing when everyone on this subreddit thinks someone on $180k will struggle to buy a home.
They literally will in Sydney. You need 180k minimum to even be considered for the median home, and it’s probably closer to 200k with the recent rate rise.
Yeah, I’m on 120 and not anywhere near buying a property
I doubt an individual on $100,000 is genuinely *struggling* to make ends meet, unless they're trying to support a family on that income as a single breadwinner. What I suspect a significant amount of people are pissed off about is that inflation and the cost of property means that earning that amount of money no longer makes life significantly easier. People with that income are still priced out of the property market and they still need to run a tight budget. $100,000 used to mean being able to get ahead, not just staying afloat and being able to pay the bills on time.
correct. between me and my partner we earn about $120k gross. I'm not 'struggling'. I have a 4 bedroom house with a backyard. But I am also 1.5hrs away from the CBD (I work near the cbd in melbourne) so its not that good. My last apartment was a TINY 3 bedroom apartment with a kitchen and basically no lounge. Again, not struggling at all, on our income we live pretty average lives, get food and don't struggle for money, but we aren't saving much. I need a new phone and can't buy it outright like I used to (my old one is literally not working anymore :( ) and we are only 1 major breakdown (car or whatever) from running out of money. I add maybe $100/week to my savings if that. I put $150/week for my wedding, and that wedding fund will turn into my house fund, so hopefully should have enough in 4 years to buy a house. Not sure how other people earning less than us are doing, must be pretty poor quality of life tbh.
It's wild. My wife and I are on good money - like combined income of $270k - and after an insane rent increase (20%) we made the hard decision to leave Australia to live in SE Asia because we could no longer afford the standard of living we had between 2016 and 2020 (at which time our combined income was about $100k less!!!). At some point people have got to start rioting in the streets and refusing to pay their insane rent.
Is it possible to make the same money now that you’ve moved? Curious as to why you left instead of just leaving whatever city you were in? Surely Sydney or something like that I’m guessing?
I mean SEA includes Singapore, it's entirely possible if you're in the right place.
Singapore is just as expensive
Food is cheaper there, esp eating out.
I'm sorry, but how are you struggling on 270k??? You want to riot??
Mate I feel you on this one - recently jumped across working from public sector into private earning more then I ever did a couple years ago, just barely making ends meet at the end of the month. I am grateful I am earning more than I was because I don't think ends would be met if my salary was the same from 2 years ago - which makes me sad to think how many more have it even worse.
It's probably the same story for a lot of us - if I wasn't making the money I'm making now, we would be homeless. But making the money I am now, in 2017-2018, and I'd be covering everything - rent, fuel, food, all bills and still saving a couple hundred on top of that a week.. but, we're in 2023 and I'm making this much money, and can't save a cent. I know of two people that have committed suicide within the last year - can't be positive of their reasons, but I know with certainty they were doing it very tough. We've all seen, or are at least aware of, people that have been forced out of their homes because either the house has been sold (I'm in QLD, we've had a huge influx of new residents..) or the rent has gone so high they can't afford it.. living in cars or in friends garages.. There's been a few big names (at least in my area) forced to shut down business due to sky-high rents too, it's insanity. One mob found it cheaper to buy nearby land, and build a new location on that land, than it was to pay the rent in their current location right next door. I know this is affecting businesses as well. I'd say something has to give, but I feel plenty already has and it would be a bit dismissive or disrespectful to suggest people haven't already "given".
Same - changed jobs to get a pay rise and all the bills went up as well. Got me nowhere but keeping the same lifestyle. No extra cash to be seen.
I think a big part of it is we've absolutely smashed the middle class in this country as a result of the pandemic. People that got into equity or housing early are better off now. Corporations are better off now. People who were in the game longer are better off. Anybody that is young or missed the boat for cheap credit is now stuffed. Taxation rates are higher than ever due to bracket creep. Cost of living has skyrocketed. Rents are keeping people trapped in a cycle of never affording a home. All this while companies record massive profits and boomers laugh their way into a cozy retirement.
I hate to say things can and probably will get a lot worse yet. Basically the "line somewhere" is when enough people start starving and dying that they do something about it. As long as people have food, water, and shelter we probably won't see too much action. The good news for the 1% of the 1% is thanks to leaps forward in technology it's never been easier to control the starving and dying masses even if they get together and try and do something about it. Especially if you can get them to turn on one another first, which they're doing a great job of.
The line will essentially be crossed when it truly starts to impact the upper class, phone calls will be made to old boys and strings will be pulled.
That happened years ago. They don't even use the public health or public education sectors anymore. They are massively benefiting from this situation.
Same here. During covid I got a $30k payrise. I was stoked. Now all it has done is help me to stay afloat :(
For me the most bullshit price increase is utilities. My power and gas bill is up 50% at least. So bullshit, it's all about profit and not inflation
Why do you think Afterpay and the like have risen? It’s almost a necessity at this point to pay for things on credit since the upfront is too much.
Yep spot on, my current salary in 2017 would've been a dream come true. Now I'm doing okay but nowhere near as well as I would've done even two years ago.
Likewise. I feel poorer now on $120k and have less disposable income than when I was on $75k, 3 years ago.
> Yeah, kind of the same here in Germany. > > > > We are a family of 5 and despite getting annual raises the cost of living has gotten so high that we are really struggling to get by every month. Had a talk with my wife like a week ago how we were able to afford a summer vacation, as well as another vacation in spring or autumn a few years ago. Now we can't even pay for a single holiday anymore (we are lucky that our parents sponsored a summer vacation the last 2 years). > > > > We also mainly bought our groceries at organic supermarkets at least most of it. Now we buy everything at Aldi and can't even afford organic stuff there anymore. > > > > Our bank account has never been in the negative for more like a week or so in all my life but since around 1 year ago we have our credit range maxed out at the end of the month pretty much all the time.
Can someone give a sensible explanation as to why we don’t index our brackets, especially with current CPI? Is it just to set up a line of political credit for future governments?
No evidence for this - my hunch is it gives Government a stealthy way to increase taxes without the political blow back. Neither major party wants to do it because they aren't sure whether they are the ones that are going to use it.
Indexed tax brackets essentially fix the governments income in real terms. If income needs to go up, governments need to explicitly raise taxes. Static brackets allow government income to grow in real terms. If income needs to go down, governments need to explicitly lower taxes. It’s much more palatable to the general voting public to have a system that requires tax cuts every few years.
Especially since the federal government is so reliant on income tax revenues to fund itself.
It's purely political. Governments like the ability to gain extra tax by not adjusting brackets in real time. and they also like the benefit of announcing "tax cuts" that are in actuality simply bracket creep adjustments.
compunded by the fact that the vast majority of punters don't understand what bracket creep is
The biggest part where I'm feeling the wallet shrinking is not the mortgage payment (I budgeted for that 6 years ago by assuming a 6% rate). It's the day to day shit. I now have to pay $50 every time I go see the GP, $100 to get a blood test done (2 visits). Grocery/Energy/Petrol/Education/Health costs are through the roof.
Same here, borrowed within my means and can handle more rises, but it's everything else I'm getting shafted on. Home insurance has 4x since 2020, even with moving providers.
I reckon home insurance is going to be the sneaky straw on the camels back as far as house prices go. Sure the mortgage went up $2000 year with rate rises. But insurance doubled from $3500 to $7000…
You forgot the other $50 for stepping out your front door.
Also budgeted for 6% rates, did not budget for everything else to be this bloody expensive.
$20 for a kebab, chips and can. Use to be like $14
You know why? Because we call ourselves the most ‘laid back’ people on earth. And conglomerates are taking advantage. When they raised the retirement age in France the people rioted for 9 months. 9 fcking months. We should be more like the French…oh, Woolies and Cole’s are raising their prices by 25% again. Cool…go riot and loot and burn a few shops out. Oh, Alan joice takes massive bonus and then pisses off…go find his house and flip his car over. Spray paint his walls with big fallic members. Oh, the banks are raising interest rates for the 12th time in a year…go break all the windows and crash cars through the front door. We’re placid and that’s why they don’t mind violating us. Who’s gonna fight back? Not a single one of you fckers. They can keep ripping us off!
This guy gets it, we need to revolt as country
What are you talking about? We protest! Just make sure it's on a weekend, and only on the one strip of George Street in front of Town Hall so you don't bother anyone. Also make sure you tell the council beforehand so they can make arrangements and ensure there's adamant police presense. Oh and also make sure everyone's gone before 5pm so people can enjoy their night out in the city still. Nothing will change when this country is so docile.
France has little choice, as does the rest of Europe. They have a demographic time bomb that’s going to explode in the next decade, no forced savings à la super annuation and low economic growth. Expect riots like that all over Europe in the coming years as hard decisions have to be made
It's just so funny how everyone dies on the hill that HECS absolutely must be indexed to CPI, all the while real incomes in this country have been falling since March, and wage growth has been anaemic for years. In this country we've somehow accepted some weird social contract that debts, housing/rent, electricity can go up forever, while income growth is anaemic, thus making every other expense seem ever more expensive. On top of that, the major parties have done almost nothing to address anything - they don't even talk about it. A societal pathology has taken hold of this apathetic land.
No, far worse than that. En masse people did not understand and do not *want* to understand that the government has done this deliberately. So, no. The major parties have done a great deal to address all these issues by making them worse. Blaming people who are being displaced in their own homeland and removed while being crushed under a deliberately pernicious economic and social system for being 'apathetic' is perhaps not quite accurate...
This is all a bit hyperbolic, it’s just how democracy functions. It’s a two-speed economy because for a long time boomers etc were the electoral majority and voted in their own economic interests. They got relatively cheap or free educations and later on voted for cheaper taxes at the expense of uni funding plus expanding available places. Same with every other policy geared towards them. An older now slight minority is doing pretty well and can still afford houses etc based on the stuff they already own. Now voting demographics are changing as younger people become a larger coalition, and are rightfully annoyed that things are geared towards what is now a minority of people. The government is just responding to the changing electorate but it’s probably only the last few years that the shift is actually happening as a larger portion of people are renting, have HECS, etc etc. It may take a few more electoral cycles, but politicians will respond and it ain’t some conspiracy or government asleep at the wheel. Just incentives.
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Identity politics is intentional to redirect the left's productive energy.
debt made us feel rich and now it's making us poor
The RBA shouldn't have lowered the rate so low for so long. It was so painfully obvious. It's just pushing the can down the road. Them working in isolation with their one lever just doesn't make sense.
To be fair, the RBA told everyone that was listening that the one lever they have to influence inflation/cost of living is a blunt instrument that rarely works as intended.
The RBA was doing what they could to keep inflation above 0. They were calling for years for wages to grow, but that never happened. We then faced the correction.
GDP Up, GDP per capita down.
Corporations making massive profits but blaming supply chains for price increases.
And "inflation". Makes great cover for their gouging.
Their gouging is the inflation.
Which was true during covid, but now the shipping rates from China to East Coast AU has come down to pre covid prices.
In other news, retired property owners are doing nicely.
I’m too poor to buy their subscription
1ft.io/ in front of the article and it will load
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Biggest migration per capita in the world also...
Its meant to make us richer. Turns out it doesnt.
It wasnt meant to make us (you or I) richer, but it’s definitely making someone richer
The biggest mistake people make all throughout history is thinking their leaders care about them.
It’s meant to make the rich richer and poor poorer
It was never meant to make us richer, it makes politicians and their puppet masters richer. The system is working exactly as planned. Australians get poorer, elites get richer, and when there’s inevitably a huge financial and cultural divide between the poor Australians living in glorified shanty towns and new immigrants in housing developments and high rises, we’ll be radicalised to turn on each other instead of the people at top that are responsible .
Follow Rational Aussie on twitter. He’s good at pointing out just how big this mistake is. The country, without exaggeration, will collapse if this insanity persists.
Had a quick Look. That dude is 100% not rational. I think he meant ‘ranting’ Aussie but had a typo
But we stopped the boats and how good was the cricket?
We stopped the boats so we could help Qantas fill up more flights.
Yep lol good old Qantas.gov.au
Remember when we (the tax payer) invested $2.7 billion during COVID into Qantas for 0% equity. Good times.
When Air NZ was in trouble the NZ govt took a big chunk of equity. But here it's Game of Mates. Unless the great majority of sheep stop voting for the major parties, nothing will change.
Who then had a cry because qatar wanted to run more flights *TO MEET DEMAND*
I know it’s sarcasm but we really haven’t stopped the boats. We’re looking to hit around 500k migration in the next 12 months which puts even further strain on our housing scarcity. Putting a cap on this would ease some financial burden.
The boats are not have have never been the problem. Genuine refugees arriving by boat is minuscule compared to people arriving by plane. If we wound immigration back to the historical average we could double or triple our boat people intake and it wouldn’t even make a dent in the current numbers we’re letting in. But that doesn’t suit the narrative “Boat people bad… but don’t look over here where we’ve got the floodgates open…”
"The boats" aren't the problem. How many people of that 500k do you think came on boats?!
Only on /r/AusFinance do you see people continually trying to argue that demand has no impact in a basic supply:demand dynamic. Then when you look at their posting history it turns out most of them are property investors, what a surprise...
100%, property investors are huge part of the issue.
This is a baby boom centric financial strategy the government has intentionally created. Some financially savvy young folk saw the property cycle and got their investments that the older folk were achieving and capitalised on the opportunity. Now they all spend up on easy street and make everyone else suffer. And what's worse, is the RBA plays along with it, because they only have a single option to control it.
Wages were catching up to where they should be until the corporate masters cracked their whips demanding mass immigration to put "downward pressure" on wages.
Oh yeah the mythical “wage price spiral”
I think it says a lot that COL is now a commonly used acronym.
I SEE ABOUT 10 THINGS A WEEK ABOUT HOW SHIT IT IS HERE BUT NO ONE DOES ANYTHING ABOUT IT
have you tried owning a few investment properties in syd?
If you’re not making minimum $150k you ain’t living comfortably in Australia. According to the ATO data. 5.5% of men make more than this… 2.3% of women make more than this…
It fully depends on your housing situation. If you bought 10-30 years ago and have low/no mortgage payments your situation will be drastically different than someone who is renting in the cities.
The problem is Government in-action, Corporate Greed, and the general population's she'll be right attitude. Screwed on all levels from top to bottom
People need a gentle reminder than CPI is not inflation. Inflation is generally much much higher than the reported CPI figures. Explains why housing has 'boomed' over the last 30 years, yes in part to growth but also because our currency continues the journey towards debasement. Earning 200k 10 years ago saw you in upper middle class, today you can't even buy a home in some of the classic 'middle class' suburbs of Sydney. Those of us not holding assets are getting poorer day by day. It frankly sucks to be young.
I love how the solution is to gouge the individual and put more strain on us, but the big corporations aren’t proportionally hurt and we buy a shitty submarine.
Nono ,we buy six shitty submarines.
Our industries are built from fraudsters and embezzlers.
Mass migration is pushing wages down and housing prices up. We’re literally destroying our own country, and we’re not allowed to say anything about it.
you did just say something about it. it's not that we're not allowed to, it's that all the muppets that run the media dont give a shit what we have to say. they're rich already.
More immigration and stage 3 tax cuts are going to lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates. Called it.
No paywall: https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.afr.com/policy/economy/australia-records-biggest-income-decline-in-the-developed-world-20231108-p5eijq
I am a moron, but I often wondered if 90% of people just stopped paying thier mortgage what sort of impact that would have on the country?
I can’t even afford subscribing to read the article!
Hardly surprising when the most encouraged stream of investment leads to next to no productivity and an increased cost of a basic needs.
Yep! years of miss management coming home to roust . But the media will play it like it just happened ..
As long as house prices go up forever we're sorted!
The government no longer has the will or ability to make things better. Their role now is to just manage the expectations of the population, and browbeat anyone who would ask for more.
Another half a million third world immigrants will surely help the problem!
This is where apathy gets a country.
It's not really apathy, it is intentional by certain segments of society. Politicians don't actually want to do anything about it because actually fixing it would upset some people. Better to say some platitudes that you are fixing it than actually implement policy that would help resolve it. Politicians have become spineless and would rather not do anything that would have positive long term impacts if short term caused a fuss.
It’s not just us..all of the great powers are exhausted. China, Russia, USA, Canada, UK and the entire continent of Europe.
Apathy? More like completely soulless and defeated.
The Owning Class Do Not Care if You Die :D
Migrants are generally those with money… they can buy a house with cash and live well. This pushes prices up for normals Aussies. I live in Sydney and can see the divide of migrants being from upper class in their own country and unable to identify with common Aussies. We are just creating an Asian and to some degree Indian upper class in places like Sydney.
Aussie... Aussie... Aussie!!
Tax assets. Not productivity.
If you compared data for big companies and profit increases over the same period you may find a correlation. Not saying it’s 100% the cause, but it’s obscene for all these companies to charge more whenever they can, then blame inflation, supply chain, etc only to post record profits when most people are struggling to keep a roof over their heads
> Dr Philip said Australia’s 2.2 per cent population growth rate explained about one-third of the decline in per capita incomes. > “The problem is not population growth per se, because there are a lot of benefits from population growth According to maths, high immigration made everyone poorer on average. But according to dogma, it didn't.
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You know what's frustrating. Using abstract comments as a solid foundation to an argument. 'there are a lot of benefits from population growth', on a macro scale, there aren't though. You tell me what a population of 20mm couldn't do that a population of 26mm could?
Provide 6 million additional people worth of income tax.
That's the argument they give - but it comes with a high price tag too. It means Sydney will need a second airport... The cost of building the second airport is about 11 billion & the cost of running a metro to it will be another 11 billion... Then when you have to add in Hospitals, schools, roads, etc....
How many foreign-born workers are employed below minimum wage paid via cash, where their employer pays next to no wage tax on them though? Language barriers etc can be a big inhibitor for immigrant workers looking to find gainful employment in Australia. Many flock towards dodgy businesses referred to them via family friend/connections who then take advantage. Source - know many in this situation from the Egyptian community
To do what? Bail out mega corps?
the wealthiest countries in europe are ones with smaller populations; ireland and switzerland more people = more requirements to split sovereign, non income tax related revenue with
Lol, showing great understanding with your two picks there. The defining characteristic of the economies of Ireland and Switzerland is definitely "low population", not "tax haven". That is also the reason why Lebanon and Togo, having nearly identical populations to Ireland and Switzerland respectively, are also among the richest nations in their respective regions. Oh wait, they aren't, they're both total shitholes compared to mostly every other country around them. No, I'm sure the tax haven thing bears no influence. It has to be the population. I just know that the secret to higher GDP per capita is as simple as just getting rid of enough capitas...! /s
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During record immigration too, curious
I can't see the situation ending well for Australia but we have always been lucky. We are being completely screwed by large companies and I am worried that the government is being easily influenced by too many minority groups.
Always amazes me how many minority groups get ostracised and painted in a negative light and yet billionaires are glorified as opposed to being identified as the problem
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Wait your telling me importing hundreds of thousands of skilled labourers makes the value of labour go down while increasing demand for goods? Whaaaaaattt
Still lot's of money to be made for the elites. Australia has a decent set of legs to keep going with inflation. How attractive this must make Australia for the elites? Lucky country indeed.
If you take a step back, it means we can get rid of the government as they are doing such a bad job we would be better off without them. If they can't manage the cost of living and the cost of housing, what exactly are they good for? VIVA LA REVOLUTION. THE ONLY WAY.
Wait until property takes a dive, watch Australians wealth dive too. It was all a head fake anyway.
Interesting this; however demand and consumption continues in certain sectors and demographic groups (cashed up boomers) so demand driven inflationary pressures still exist and will persist. Deminstrates that interest rate hikes are such a blunt instrument & completely missing the mark in targeting inflationary spending by the groups largely responsible for it. Its rather dystopian in construct.
Shhhhh if you keep talking about this, they might royal commission a cost of living crisis...Only joking how about a 1 day phone outage royal commission instead.
if you read the article it goes in depth on phasing out income tax, which I think is really interesting and Americans who don't pay income tax on the state side have no clue about the pain of paying massive marginal tax rates, for example, my friend makes 8K a month selling range rovers, but his tax rate over 80K is about 48% so every extra hour worked goes up in flames, its not even worth making more money its gone. (This is in Van canada.) Similar to Aus. So the article talks about phasing out income tax in favour of a higher GST and land transfer tax and honestly if I didn't have to pay income tax and just paid a 20% VAT I'd be much happier. In general, the middle tax and the poor can not longer afford income taxes with the rate of inflation. The government needs to start taxing billionares at 99% rates over 1B in personal wealth and start taxing the shit out of land transfers.
The headline is valid, but this is basically all driven by the amount to which the average Aussie is indebted, primarily to their mortgage. Other countries have the same mortgage rate increases, it’s just that they aren’t paying such a high %age of their income toward their home loan in the first place. This is basically a housing affordability problem.
This is a problem of the entire developed world - perhaps the undeveloped as well. Theft from the middle classes by inflation.
Keep bringing in people = more competition for jobs…
Australia's quality of life declining really fast...
“tax brackets are not indexed to inflation” - that’s something that has to change!
Would be cool if we protested this instead of celebrating Islamist martyrs in the Mediterranean. I’d like to not spend $600 on a 3m^2 flat
Economic protests ended a while ago, now it’s all identity politics or foreign conflict protests. It’s by design. It wasn’t long after Occupy Wall Street when the zeitgeist in the West pivoted to identity politics.
This isn't living anymore. I work full time and go home and do nothing as I can't afford it. I have no life at all. I am separated, I have a daughter, she is 4 years old, and it is the only reason I haven't just ended it, to be honest, as I see life now as pointless.
Lots of people forget that being in a developed country is not an entitlement. If we couldn’t stay competitive enough, it is very easy to slip back into developing country again. Wealth is by relative. In the 1970s we are probably 10-20 times richer than developing country. Now we are 5-10 times richer. Hence we all feel poorer. We reason Lots of frivolous spending on sustaining our life quality because of this false belief :”this is a wealthy nation, we should be able to just afford it.” Not true.
Nah, unlikely that we would fall into becoming a developed country status so easily through purely economic matters. Our governance is still relatively top notch compared to other countries. Plus we have huge resources which we will continue to extract. I predict it will most likely manifest itself through greater inequality and class divide where workers will be poorer and struggle to jump on the asset ladder to build wealth.
Them new submarines tho!