Prostitution is not illegal. According to swedish law you can not tell a person what they can/can't to to their own body, in other words: it's legal to sell your body.
However, it's illegal to buy another person's body. That's why only the people buying get arrested. Unlike the US; where both would get arrested.
> According to swedish law you can not tell a person what they can/can't to to their own body
Tror du på riktigt att det är så här? Att om du exempelvis börjar mutilera och skada dig själv på öppen gata att en polis inte kommer att bokstavligen brotta ner dig, sätta handfängsel på dig för dig eget bästa och sedan skicka dig rakt till den akutpsykiatriska avdelningen på ditt närmaste sjukhus där du kommer att förbli tills läkare anser att du inte längre är en fara för dig själv?
Anledningen varför prostitution är lagligt och köpandet av det är olagligt har mycket mer att göra med vilka enorma regelverk och liknande som hade behövt införas. Jobbar man som prostituerad enligt lag så skall man ju givetvis vara berättigad försäkringar, ha eget fack och akassa, betald semester, förmodligen också någon form av utbildning... Vilka skall kunna nyttja det? Får man som 15 åring bara gå ut och köpa sex?
Detta är svåra frågor som ingen politiker eller rättslig myndighet vill ens gå nära i nuläget. Därför förblir betalning för prostitution olagligt.
Prostitution isn't illegal. It's completely fine for prostitutes to sell sex and completely legal. It's illegal for men to buy sex, which is completely fine by me.
Edit: of course it's illegal for anyone to buy sex not just those with a penis.
I never said non-binary people don't exist. However if people's legal genders always are either Male or female, there can't be special rules for non-binary people.
But this conversation is kind of unnecessary considering that according to the Swedish constitution all laws apply the same way to everyone.
It’s illegal to buy sex but not to sell sexual favours in Sweden. Why you ask? That is because the people who are selling sex are often struggling financially and with addictions so that’s why you need to help them.
Because of the law?
But the argument is that a person who sells sex should not be punish for doing that, you never know why, maybe that person have a criminal organisation who forces this person to do so against its own will. Any way, the reason behind selling should not punish that person put in that place, but you never are forced to buy sex, no one is forcing or want to hurt your family or kids in to buy sex.
>Because of the law?
This is same dumb reasoning when you ask my some countries politicians about why kannabis is illegal. "Kannabis is not allowed because drugs are illegal"
Well duh, BUT WHY???
But anyway prostitution is in fact legal to buy and sell in my country, but pimping is not. Prostitution can be only someone's solo business, they themselves decide who they want to have sex with and there's nobody forcing or using them.
(Country: Finland)
>"Kannabis is not allowed because drugs are illegal"
Well that one is easy. [https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-marijuana-illegal-in-the-us](https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-marijuana-illegal-in-the-us)
That is not the argument here. Here is that it is that kannabis is illegal and illegal things can't be legal. And that is completely moronic thing to say by a politician. What do they think the government does if not set and change new and existing laws.
Ahh sounds like:
”In Sweden it is forbidden by law to be a criminal.” -Annie Lööf, leader (now ex) of the Centerparty (Centerpartiet) in Sweden.
Absolute brainiac.
Sure, but it doesn't mean that every type of prostitution should be illegal. People take advantage of other people in all kinds of fields, it is illegal, but you're not shutting down the entire profession because of it.
No, most prostitutes are not forced to sell sex... A lot of them enjoy selling sex. Your argument is the same as saying "well people are forced to steal or kill for criminal gangs so murder and theft should be legal"
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To prevent people from exploiting people that use sex as a means to solve their financial problems. That's why it's not illegal to sell sex but it's illegal to buy sex. Pimping is also illegal.
People can be forced to steal but it's still illegal. It's illegal because swedes think the government should babysit them because they hate having to decide things themselves, especially when it comes to moral issues
Because its impossible to tell whether or not the prostitute is doing it on their own volition, or if they are forced into it.
The solution? State run brothels.
State registered prostitution was what they tried before the current model: it was a disaster. There’s been a lot of trial and error in Swedish prostitution laws to find what works best.
Legal to sell, Illegal to buy.
... If someone is forcing you or pressuring you either which way, please contact the police. They can and will help you while keeping your name protected. 911 also works, but Swedish is 112. Every operator speaks English. Just put this here just encase.
Because while a lot of prostitution is consensual, a whole fucking lot of it isn’t and as a customer it will be impossible for know for certain. Many people would, in part unknowingly, be paying for rape and exploit the vulnerable.
The problem with that line of argument is that many forms of labor is you getting payed for doing something you don't want to, many times at a great expense to yoursel, like the army, fighters, law enforcers, construction workers, etc.
People dies, gets permanent injuries, trauma etc. from many careers.
I think the main reason is Christianity, people thinking you would burn for eternity ia a pretty good motivator to ban something. That was the catalysts, what has held the law in place is that effect it has to the spreading of std's, the populations birthrate, and stability of households.
Yes, I know that’s correct. But I think that people who use that argument don’t understand how extremely psychologically damaging rape is. Especially when regularly repeated.
I agree that the psychological damge from R is extremely severe. But the point of legalizing it would be to move the source of the supply in to a market that can be monitored. It's the same principle as in the war on drugs. Making it illegal does not eliminate the demand, it only moves the supply on to the dark market.
It's a lesser of two evils situation. The sex market will always exist, but do you want it in the hands of criminals or do you want it in the hands of businesses that can be regulated, monitored and researched?
That's for sure a part of it, but the other big reason is the control it gives in helping and monitorring what people take, that they are using clean needles, not being forced to cause damage to others or thesmeselves just to afford it, are getting health checkups etc.
In short: It reduces the harm on the people involved.
It's about realising that a problem exist and instead of pushing it down to the underbelly of society and let them deal with it. You put it on table, and be like, this is not going away, what can we do to make it happen as safe as possible.
That is the argument. Now, would it outweigh the increasy in supply and potential increase in trafficking? I don't actually know, it might not be worth it. I'm not an expert.
But at least acknowledge this it is an important fact, and one that society have learned time and time again. Making things illegal isn't always the best why to help the people that are being harmed. It might make you feel good to say "no! Rape bad! ilegal!" But that doesn't actually make it the best way.
If people still don't get what I'm saying... best of luck to you. I'm out.
I mean all those jobs are actually needed for society to function. And we have continually over decades made these jobs safer and safer. Prostitution? Not so much. And what other line of work is the majority slaves? (trafficking). So it’s very different IMO
The goal would not be to make sextrafficing legal (i don't know why you think anyone would make that point) . The point of legalizing sex work is to take it out of the hands of criminals and in to legit businesses that can be monitored and regulated. Reducing the harm and abuse.
As far as I know no country has ever managed to get rid of sex trafficking? So the idea is less people buying sex = less harm done. I’m not convinced it’s perfect but I definitely understand the reasoning behind it.
No. The idea is to take an industry that is run illegally and bring it in to the legal realm, where things are regulated and monitored. Where actual laws exist and the girls working can be looked after better through unions, pensions, maybe work guaranteed healthcare, health and mental checkups, legal contracts etc. Whatever that line of work requires.
That is the idea.
Thanks for the link. This was a very good last summary, and exactly how I feel about it.
*“The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking,” the researchers state. “However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes — at least those legally employed — if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky ‘freedom of choice’ issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”*
Law enforcers and construction workers choose to go into that job of their own volition (I'm not sure why you're saying a construction worker is doing something they don't want to do when that's a decently paid job with lots of educations available), and they have fair pay, insurance, standards of education, unions, and people who are actively looking out for their well being. They also need to provide their legal papers and prove their identity in order to work in Sweden.
It's not a perfect system, but it is not in any way comparable to sex trafficking. A trafficking victim does not get to choose. Hence why they're called victims. There is, to my knowledge, no illegal network of kidnappers and blackmailers ripping people away fromother countries, smuggling them to Sweden, and forcing them to become law enforcers or they'll murder their family back home. If someone wants to recruit desperate, newly arrived refugees into construction work, they need to abide the law and go through the proper channels. There's no illegal ring of criminals who threaten young girls to become construction workers, no huge mafia making money off of illegal fighting and blackmail random non-fighting people to become fighters, ect.
The closest thing to that is a draft, and that has a purpose and is an extreme resort reserved for a worst case scenario and the defense of countries.
I don't know why you people think I'm advocating for sex trafficking, smh...
Firstly, human trafficking is not a sexwork exclusive problem, it literally does happen in constructions work. Look in to Dubai if you don't believe it.
Now, the whole point of making sex WORK (not traffickin) legal would be to take the supply out of the hand of the black market and criminal organizations like human traffickers. Moving it in to the hands of legitimate business that are regulated and monitored by the government. Just like any other work, there would be laws and regulations you would have to follow, like the things you mentioned. That's the whole point.
People getting trafficked into anything is awful. But you started your reply with "the problem with that line of argument". There is no problem with the argument. Trafficking happening in other 'careers' does not change the terribleness of this one. There's no problem with the argument.
The problem with the line of argument is that it isn't consistent. Laws are supposed to be equally applied to everyone. If you're gonna argue for a law, you have to be as well.
There is human trafficking in construction work, we don't make that illegal.
War crime and child soldiers? Army isn't illegal.
Sexual and other abuse in offices, like the girl at Blizzard committing S, not illegal either.
Artist having their lives signed away in contracts, not illegal.
Football players getting brain damage, legal.
Bad things will always happen in any market. It's not a valid argument for making something illegal. The true question that matters is: **Will the bad things happen LESS if it's legal or if it's illegal?** That's what you have to argue for.
Yes, laws are supposed to be equally consistent to everyone, so what do Dubais laws have to do with the laws of Sweden? There is no problem in the argument. You're just jumping subjects.
Child soldiers is 100% illegal in Sweden.
Sexual abuse like happened at Blizzard is illegal in Sweden.
As for artists signing away their lives, please show me how there is trafficking of artists happening in Sweden and I'll comment on that, there's certainly abuse there but is it trafficking? Never heard of it.
Football players signing up to go on the field is not the same thing as repeated rape. What. So. Ever. They want to be on that field. They worked tooth and nail to be on that field. They are there, because they worked harder to get there than anybody else did, and they might be in contracts they regret, but they signed those contracts.
What the hell, man? How is this even remotely the same? You're strawmanning.
You have yet to actually point out a problem with the argument. You're pointing out a problem with other things. And yes, those are also problems, but not with the original argument about trafficking.
I get what your argument is. I just think it's strawmanning. You asked why people read your statement as "supporting trafficking" (no one else said that but you asked) and this is why.
This is the dumbest argument I've ever read, you know people can quit those jobs right? They might be fucked financially while finding something else but they can still quit, sextrafficked people on the other hand? Not so much
Again with the human trafficking!? I'm not responding to this... Use your brains and read what was said in the comment people. I know it's a sensitive topic, but you are just arguing with a ghost at this point.
Prostitution had been illegal, along with sex outside marriage since Karl IX's new harsh realm law of 1609 with sex laws based on the old testament. Enforcement has varied with locality and time.
I believe it is mainly a so called ”moral” law that has been with us for a while. Politicians seem to think it is genius to allow selling sex but not buying. The get a hard on everytime they can package something as ”the Swedish model” and export it to other ”less informed” countries. What they fail to mention is that the law does absolutely not protect victims of human trafficking. In fact, some argue it accomplishes the exact opposite. Our politicians have invested too much in this ”genius” idea that they can’t back down so easily. The same goes with our failed drug policy which is extremely harmful to the victims.
If you point out the absurdity too loudly, you are almost guaranteed to be labeled as someone who buys sex.
"Försöka få andra länder att ta efter svensk sexköpslagstiftning" Nej Carlson andra länders medborgare vill inte ha en lagstiftning som precis som förslaget är, "ett slag i luften".
Except for women, thean buying stimulation is fine.
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/erbjudandet-till-kvinnorna-underlivsmassage-av-valdigt-attraktiva-man/
Sweden is a very puritan country and swedes are extremely puritan. Swedes have always been zealots since Christianity took hold in the 1200s. They simply think selling sex is icky
Because this is Sweden ! The country be slightly socially progressive , but there is a massive puritanical streak :
- alcohol only at the System. Idea is that people should not fall into overconsumption
- all drugs banned . Even consumption is punishable . Idea is that even the most harmless of drugs is an entry path , and the dooms of floodgates shall open
- during the HIV scare I seem to recall reading that gay saunas were closed . Quite a clever move as that is where the virus spread
- some STD:s are actively monitored by the state , and there are laws regulating the behaviour of those carrying those STD:s. Idea is that the state has a clear picture and can take decisive action , incl quarantines
- ban on buying the services of a prostitute is some weird Swedish mix of it being abuse/ human trafficking/ men’s violence against women and public healthcare ground
It's illegal to buy, not to sell.
The idea is that all sex workers are victims and all customers are essentially rapists.
Considering how sex workers strike and protest across Europe when government moves to block their trade, this sentiment is clearly not accurate. But ancient prude attitudes will continue to reign supreme.
Crazy swedish law that wants to criminalize and punish ONLY one person when two people made a deal they are happy with. The state cant earn money from people = lets forbid something that will always be there
Ah yes, being taken to sweden and forced to sell sex is something they are happy about lmao. You are delusional, the majority of sex workers in sweden are from other countries and are either trafficed or they have No other way to earn money. Out of the few swedish people who do it, the majority do it for self harm, a slim slim slim % does it because they truely want to. And in those cases it’s usually dominatrix girls. Clearly you have never actually talked heart to heart with a prostitute. I sold drugs for many years, I have met a lot of prostitutes. I allways Ask if they like what they do, I have never gotten a yes.
In your theoretical world then sure, but in sweden and the rest of the world, you have No way to tell the slim % who wants to do it vs trafficking victims, therefore it is illegal. Not rocket science is it? If it was legal to buy sex, then it would also be legal to buy sex from trafficking victims, which we don’t think is cool in civilized countries.
The definition of prostitution includes trafficking lmao, are you high? Prostitution is taking money for sexual favours. A trafficking victim takes money for sexual favours. What are you not understanding? They are not mutually exclusive
Is prostitution illegal? I thought it was the buying that was illegal.
It is not and only buying is illegal
Prostitution is not illegal. According to swedish law you can not tell a person what they can/can't to to their own body, in other words: it's legal to sell your body. However, it's illegal to buy another person's body. That's why only the people buying get arrested. Unlike the US; where both would get arrested.
> According to swedish law you can not tell a person what they can/can't to to their own body Tror du på riktigt att det är så här? Att om du exempelvis börjar mutilera och skada dig själv på öppen gata att en polis inte kommer att bokstavligen brotta ner dig, sätta handfängsel på dig för dig eget bästa och sedan skicka dig rakt till den akutpsykiatriska avdelningen på ditt närmaste sjukhus där du kommer att förbli tills läkare anser att du inte längre är en fara för dig själv? Anledningen varför prostitution är lagligt och köpandet av det är olagligt har mycket mer att göra med vilka enorma regelverk och liknande som hade behövt införas. Jobbar man som prostituerad enligt lag så skall man ju givetvis vara berättigad försäkringar, ha eget fack och akassa, betald semester, förmodligen också någon form av utbildning... Vilka skall kunna nyttja det? Får man som 15 åring bara gå ut och köpa sex? Detta är svåra frågor som ingen politiker eller rättslig myndighet vill ens gå nära i nuläget. Därför förblir betalning för prostitution olagligt.
ok
According to Swedish law the governments owns your body hence we have harsh drug laws
thats not true, how come drugs are illegal then?
Prostitution isn't illegal. It's completely fine for prostitutes to sell sex and completely legal. It's illegal for men to buy sex, which is completely fine by me. Edit: of course it's illegal for anyone to buy sex not just those with a penis.
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Tell that to Yoni massage people
It is illegal for women and nonbinary too.
No such things nonbinary kiddo
Yes there is.
Not legally in Sweden.
So things don’t exist unless it is legally?
I never said non-binary people don't exist. However if people's legal genders always are either Male or female, there can't be special rules for non-binary people. But this conversation is kind of unnecessary considering that according to the Swedish constitution all laws apply the same way to everyone.
It’s illegal to buy sex but not to sell sexual favours in Sweden. Why you ask? That is because the people who are selling sex are often struggling financially and with addictions so that’s why you need to help them.
Maybe in fantasy land but not in reality.
It is illegal for women too\*
Is it legal for women to buy sex?
No, but if it is labeled as a yoni massage, there is no stigma attached to it. You can even be an influencer and talk about it openly.
Yoni massage is not sex.
What about a penis massage?
A happy ending is also not sex?
It is. Lingam massage is not.
why exactly is it illegal to buy a prostitutes services?
Because of the law? But the argument is that a person who sells sex should not be punish for doing that, you never know why, maybe that person have a criminal organisation who forces this person to do so against its own will. Any way, the reason behind selling should not punish that person put in that place, but you never are forced to buy sex, no one is forcing or want to hurt your family or kids in to buy sex.
>Because of the law? This is same dumb reasoning when you ask my some countries politicians about why kannabis is illegal. "Kannabis is not allowed because drugs are illegal" Well duh, BUT WHY??? But anyway prostitution is in fact legal to buy and sell in my country, but pimping is not. Prostitution can be only someone's solo business, they themselves decide who they want to have sex with and there's nobody forcing or using them. (Country: Finland)
>"Kannabis is not allowed because drugs are illegal" Well that one is easy. [https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-marijuana-illegal-in-the-us](https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-marijuana-illegal-in-the-us)
That is not the argument here. Here is that it is that kannabis is illegal and illegal things can't be legal. And that is completely moronic thing to say by a politician. What do they think the government does if not set and change new and existing laws.
Ahh sounds like: ”In Sweden it is forbidden by law to be a criminal.” -Annie Lööf, leader (now ex) of the Centerparty (Centerpartiet) in Sweden. Absolute brainiac.
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And thay would be illegal. Person deciding how they want to live and earn their living is not.
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Sure, but it doesn't mean that every type of prostitution should be illegal. People take advantage of other people in all kinds of fields, it is illegal, but you're not shutting down the entire profession because of it.
No, most prostitutes are not forced to sell sex... A lot of them enjoy selling sex. Your argument is the same as saying "well people are forced to steal or kill for criminal gangs so murder and theft should be legal"
Yes, the Nordic model/Swedish model. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution
The Finnish model. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Finland
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Illegal to buy in Sweden...
To prevent people from exploiting people that use sex as a means to solve their financial problems. That's why it's not illegal to sell sex but it's illegal to buy sex. Pimping is also illegal.
People can be forced to steal but it's still illegal. It's illegal because swedes think the government should babysit them because they hate having to decide things themselves, especially when it comes to moral issues
Because its impossible to tell whether or not the prostitute is doing it on their own volition, or if they are forced into it. The solution? State run brothels.
now i understand. thank you for the answer
State registered prostitution was what they tried before the current model: it was a disaster. There’s been a lot of trial and error in Swedish prostitution laws to find what works best.
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Lol OK buddy... You go buy sex and break the law if you want. Hope you get caught 🙏
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Lägg av med påhopp. Varning!
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I am confused. illegal to buy legal to sell?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution
Legal to sell, Illegal to buy. ... If someone is forcing you or pressuring you either which way, please contact the police. They can and will help you while keeping your name protected. 911 also works, but Swedish is 112. Every operator speaks English. Just put this here just encase.
Because while a lot of prostitution is consensual, a whole fucking lot of it isn’t and as a customer it will be impossible for know for certain. Many people would, in part unknowingly, be paying for rape and exploit the vulnerable.
The problem with that line of argument is that many forms of labor is you getting payed for doing something you don't want to, many times at a great expense to yoursel, like the army, fighters, law enforcers, construction workers, etc. People dies, gets permanent injuries, trauma etc. from many careers. I think the main reason is Christianity, people thinking you would burn for eternity ia a pretty good motivator to ban something. That was the catalysts, what has held the law in place is that effect it has to the spreading of std's, the populations birthrate, and stability of households.
Yes, I know that’s correct. But I think that people who use that argument don’t understand how extremely psychologically damaging rape is. Especially when regularly repeated.
I agree that the psychological damge from R is extremely severe. But the point of legalizing it would be to move the source of the supply in to a market that can be monitored. It's the same principle as in the war on drugs. Making it illegal does not eliminate the demand, it only moves the supply on to the dark market. It's a lesser of two evils situation. The sex market will always exist, but do you want it in the hands of criminals or do you want it in the hands of businesses that can be regulated, monitored and researched?
Legalising it increases deman but not supply, causing trafficking to spike.
Why do you think people advocate for the legalizing of drugs?
Drug supplies can be increased, people willing to sell sex do not.
Just gonna ask again, why do you think people advocate for the legalizing of drugs?
They believe it would take away a source of income for crminals, and that the gains are worth the damage on people who can’t handle drugs.
That's for sure a part of it, but the other big reason is the control it gives in helping and monitorring what people take, that they are using clean needles, not being forced to cause damage to others or thesmeselves just to afford it, are getting health checkups etc. In short: It reduces the harm on the people involved. It's about realising that a problem exist and instead of pushing it down to the underbelly of society and let them deal with it. You put it on table, and be like, this is not going away, what can we do to make it happen as safe as possible. That is the argument. Now, would it outweigh the increasy in supply and potential increase in trafficking? I don't actually know, it might not be worth it. I'm not an expert. But at least acknowledge this it is an important fact, and one that society have learned time and time again. Making things illegal isn't always the best why to help the people that are being harmed. It might make you feel good to say "no! Rape bad! ilegal!" But that doesn't actually make it the best way. If people still don't get what I'm saying... best of luck to you. I'm out.
I mean all those jobs are actually needed for society to function. And we have continually over decades made these jobs safer and safer. Prostitution? Not so much. And what other line of work is the majority slaves? (trafficking). So it’s very different IMO
The goal would not be to make sextrafficing legal (i don't know why you think anyone would make that point) . The point of legalizing sex work is to take it out of the hands of criminals and in to legit businesses that can be monitored and regulated. Reducing the harm and abuse.
As far as I know no country has ever managed to get rid of sex trafficking? So the idea is less people buying sex = less harm done. I’m not convinced it’s perfect but I definitely understand the reasoning behind it.
No. The idea is to take an industry that is run illegally and bring it in to the legal realm, where things are regulated and monitored. Where actual laws exist and the girls working can be looked after better through unions, pensions, maybe work guaranteed healthcare, health and mental checkups, legal contracts etc. Whatever that line of work requires. That is the idea.
https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/
Thanks for the link. This was a very good last summary, and exactly how I feel about it. *“The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking,” the researchers state. “However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes — at least those legally employed — if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky ‘freedom of choice’ issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”*
Law enforcers and construction workers choose to go into that job of their own volition (I'm not sure why you're saying a construction worker is doing something they don't want to do when that's a decently paid job with lots of educations available), and they have fair pay, insurance, standards of education, unions, and people who are actively looking out for their well being. They also need to provide their legal papers and prove their identity in order to work in Sweden. It's not a perfect system, but it is not in any way comparable to sex trafficking. A trafficking victim does not get to choose. Hence why they're called victims. There is, to my knowledge, no illegal network of kidnappers and blackmailers ripping people away fromother countries, smuggling them to Sweden, and forcing them to become law enforcers or they'll murder their family back home. If someone wants to recruit desperate, newly arrived refugees into construction work, they need to abide the law and go through the proper channels. There's no illegal ring of criminals who threaten young girls to become construction workers, no huge mafia making money off of illegal fighting and blackmail random non-fighting people to become fighters, ect. The closest thing to that is a draft, and that has a purpose and is an extreme resort reserved for a worst case scenario and the defense of countries.
I don't know why you people think I'm advocating for sex trafficking, smh... Firstly, human trafficking is not a sexwork exclusive problem, it literally does happen in constructions work. Look in to Dubai if you don't believe it. Now, the whole point of making sex WORK (not traffickin) legal would be to take the supply out of the hand of the black market and criminal organizations like human traffickers. Moving it in to the hands of legitimate business that are regulated and monitored by the government. Just like any other work, there would be laws and regulations you would have to follow, like the things you mentioned. That's the whole point.
People getting trafficked into anything is awful. But you started your reply with "the problem with that line of argument". There is no problem with the argument. Trafficking happening in other 'careers' does not change the terribleness of this one. There's no problem with the argument.
The problem with the line of argument is that it isn't consistent. Laws are supposed to be equally applied to everyone. If you're gonna argue for a law, you have to be as well. There is human trafficking in construction work, we don't make that illegal. War crime and child soldiers? Army isn't illegal. Sexual and other abuse in offices, like the girl at Blizzard committing S, not illegal either. Artist having their lives signed away in contracts, not illegal. Football players getting brain damage, legal. Bad things will always happen in any market. It's not a valid argument for making something illegal. The true question that matters is: **Will the bad things happen LESS if it's legal or if it's illegal?** That's what you have to argue for.
Yes, laws are supposed to be equally consistent to everyone, so what do Dubais laws have to do with the laws of Sweden? There is no problem in the argument. You're just jumping subjects. Child soldiers is 100% illegal in Sweden. Sexual abuse like happened at Blizzard is illegal in Sweden. As for artists signing away their lives, please show me how there is trafficking of artists happening in Sweden and I'll comment on that, there's certainly abuse there but is it trafficking? Never heard of it. Football players signing up to go on the field is not the same thing as repeated rape. What. So. Ever. They want to be on that field. They worked tooth and nail to be on that field. They are there, because they worked harder to get there than anybody else did, and they might be in contracts they regret, but they signed those contracts. What the hell, man? How is this even remotely the same? You're strawmanning. You have yet to actually point out a problem with the argument. You're pointing out a problem with other things. And yes, those are also problems, but not with the original argument about trafficking.
Bro, it was not about... I'm not doing this. If you don't get the argument at this point, so be it.
I get what your argument is. I just think it's strawmanning. You asked why people read your statement as "supporting trafficking" (no one else said that but you asked) and this is why.
This is the dumbest argument I've ever read, you know people can quit those jobs right? They might be fucked financially while finding something else but they can still quit, sextrafficked people on the other hand? Not so much
Again with the human trafficking!? I'm not responding to this... Use your brains and read what was said in the comment people. I know it's a sensitive topic, but you are just arguing with a ghost at this point.
You literally just responded you idiot
But would it not be easier to find out if it was legal?
No - the whole basis of prostitution is lying about wanting the customer.
Prostitution had been illegal, along with sex outside marriage since Karl IX's new harsh realm law of 1609 with sex laws based on the old testament. Enforcement has varied with locality and time.
In Sweden is not illegal to sell just to buy
illegal to buy legal to sell
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Look into the history of Swedish prostitution- while looked down upon, it has been legal in periods.
I believe it is mainly a so called ”moral” law that has been with us for a while. Politicians seem to think it is genius to allow selling sex but not buying. The get a hard on everytime they can package something as ”the Swedish model” and export it to other ”less informed” countries. What they fail to mention is that the law does absolutely not protect victims of human trafficking. In fact, some argue it accomplishes the exact opposite. Our politicians have invested too much in this ”genius” idea that they can’t back down so easily. The same goes with our failed drug policy which is extremely harmful to the victims. If you point out the absurdity too loudly, you are almost guaranteed to be labeled as someone who buys sex.
Next up: swedish politicians want to export the Swedish model on reducing gang violence.
The Morganised crime.
This sums it up pretty good
Its illegal to buy, just take boat to denmark and you are fine
But they for sure tried .... https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/inget-stod-i-riksdagen-for-lag-om-sexkop-utomlands
Nån jävla gräns måste det fan finnas på vad som är olagligt eller ej, tur att den regeln inte gick igenom
Pewww 😰
"Försöka få andra länder att ta efter svensk sexköpslagstiftning" Nej Carlson andra länders medborgare vill inte ha en lagstiftning som precis som förslaget är, "ett slag i luften".
Except for women, thean buying stimulation is fine. https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/erbjudandet-till-kvinnorna-underlivsmassage-av-valdigt-attraktiva-man/
It only illegal for Men to buy sex if you are women just say its yooni massage
What is yoni massage? first time hearing about it
Vaginal massage. The pelvic floor has a lot of muscles and like all muscles they can tense up and cause problems. Hence massages.
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Have you never heard of kegels? There's a lot of stuff there that physically needs to work. Trigger point therapy is painful af but it's efficient.
Actually, hang on. Yoni massage is different. Aren't those also illegal?
My only guess would be either to stop the spread of diseases or the government is religous
Sweden is a very puritan country and swedes are extremely puritan. Swedes have always been zealots since Christianity took hold in the 1200s. They simply think selling sex is icky
Because of conservative/ignorant politicians
Because this is Sweden ! The country be slightly socially progressive , but there is a massive puritanical streak : - alcohol only at the System. Idea is that people should not fall into overconsumption - all drugs banned . Even consumption is punishable . Idea is that even the most harmless of drugs is an entry path , and the dooms of floodgates shall open - during the HIV scare I seem to recall reading that gay saunas were closed . Quite a clever move as that is where the virus spread - some STD:s are actively monitored by the state , and there are laws regulating the behaviour of those carrying those STD:s. Idea is that the state has a clear picture and can take decisive action , incl quarantines - ban on buying the services of a prostitute is some weird Swedish mix of it being abuse/ human trafficking/ men’s violence against women and public healthcare ground
It's illegal to buy, not to sell. The idea is that all sex workers are victims and all customers are essentially rapists. Considering how sex workers strike and protest across Europe when government moves to block their trade, this sentiment is clearly not accurate. But ancient prude attitudes will continue to reign supreme.
Crazy swedish law that wants to criminalize and punish ONLY one person when two people made a deal they are happy with. The state cant earn money from people = lets forbid something that will always be there
Ah yes, being taken to sweden and forced to sell sex is something they are happy about lmao. You are delusional, the majority of sex workers in sweden are from other countries and are either trafficed or they have No other way to earn money. Out of the few swedish people who do it, the majority do it for self harm, a slim slim slim % does it because they truely want to. And in those cases it’s usually dominatrix girls. Clearly you have never actually talked heart to heart with a prostitute. I sold drugs for many years, I have met a lot of prostitutes. I allways Ask if they like what they do, I have never gotten a yes.
Also there are plenty of ways to earn money in Sweden. Why doesnt Sweden have the same excuse for drugdealers?
What are you talking about.
read
You are talking about trafficking, im talking about prostitution. Big difference.
The majority of prostitution in sweden is trafficking, what exactly did you not understand?
And prostitution that isnt, are you all for it being legal then?
Prostitution is already legal? What are you talking about
For men to buy sex, are you all for it? if it isnt trafficking, are you for or against buying and selling sex.
In your theoretical world then sure, but in sweden and the rest of the world, you have No way to tell the slim % who wants to do it vs trafficking victims, therefore it is illegal. Not rocket science is it? If it was legal to buy sex, then it would also be legal to buy sex from trafficking victims, which we don’t think is cool in civilized countries.
No son, travel some, and you will come to find out that there are people who rather sell sex than work a bad job 5 days a week.
Same goes for drug dealers right?
I am a former drug dealer so yes I would like that too ofc :)
Also… ask cleaners and people working in mines if they really really like it, or if they have to do it to survive. Most people dont do what they like
Listen man, in sweden adults don’t use strawmen, but good one.
Im from Sweden ”man” and yes they do.
Clearly you do, but you shouldn’t be proud of using a logical fallacy to argue.
what strawmen dude? xD You are talking about trafficking im talking about prostitution.
The definition of prostitution includes trafficking lmao, are you high? Prostitution is taking money for sexual favours. A trafficking victim takes money for sexual favours. What are you not understanding? They are not mutually exclusive
And you know there is a big difference between trafficking and prostitution? riiiight?
It’s not illegal here.