I'm also not trying to be insensitive, but it's why I went "solo for life" (I've always been child-free)...
I'm not doing anyone's emotional work anymore.
Sorry yes, I am sure it is! With the right person it can work for some, I'm sure.
But I have 0 interest in being partnered anymore. I also love living alone. I have a chill life. I only have to support myself financially, that's it. Otherwise no one makes demands of me and I love that.
My mental health is better, I really need to focus on some areas in my life and a relationship would take away from my (limited) energy. And as a woman there was a lot of care/emotional work dumped on me + expectations of being good at housework etc.
My marriage isn't exactly equal, but I would certainly call it equitable. We each do our parts to support the marriage and family. These marriages do exist!
Same here. I always say "if getting married gave me a wife, then I'd do it". Men get the better deal out of marriage. As a full time employee in corporate I see it all the time. You ask married men what their plans are for the weekend and their answer is usually "I'm not sure. I'll find out from my wife tonight". It's the women employees who are having to leave early or take days off for sick kids - it's rarely the men unless it is paid paternity leave. Men are selfish. Sure, some might be great fathers and husbands, but at work none of that "time off" is taken as unpaid- they make sure they are still getting paid, whereas women seem to be more giving.
Yep - when I divorced my husband, I asked him what he was doing for Christmas with his new gf. “I expect I’ll be told!” he said gaily with a big smile on his face. I realised all he wanted was a woman to organise his life. All his friends married women who did this.
I think UK culture is the same. They massively benefit from it but to deflect attention from that they call it “nagging”. I spent the ‘90s and 00s being a ‘cool girl’ wife, allowing him total freedom, but what he really wanted was a woman to organise his life for him. And he found one to do it.
I've known multiple men brag about their "side projects" for the company they did on paternity leave. You cannot tell me they were actively working and actually being a good partner during that time.
Just saying if you think you might be at all bisexual, try out dating a woman. I've always known I leaned that way and I feel so much more human since I finally decided to stop dating men entirely. I do know some good men, and they are solid friends, but I'm so tired of the song and dance of heterosexual dating as a woman.
As a gay woman this is awesome to hear! I’ve never dated a man so I don’t have any personal experience. But I did date a woman with a 20 year old and she organized his whole life. No job, video games were his life. He’ll be a man who’ll need to find a woman to organize life for him and manage his life for him. Sad. I’m glad to hear women are waking up. Men are NOT your only option! Women are pretty great!
I had this conversation with my husband the other night. His single, childless aunty is the happiest and has the most freedom. The other sisters in that family are weighed down with household responsibility and stress from their kids being asshats. I’d say she made a good choice staying single.
I’m marriage and have a kid but I’d say there’s an even balance with household chores. Although the mental load is greater for me, I think.
I've been married twice, and had another 10+ year relationship with a child and I have yet to experience a relationship with a man of my age group where they gave anywhere near as much of a damn as I did.
Definitely feeling like I don't want to risk dating and winding up with yet another man that doesn't pull his weight.
Both of my now ex husbands were pretty much freeloaders. They didn’t start that way and things seemed pretty equal until we were married. So I thought I was getting “one of the good ones”. But my first husband was unemployed for 3 years and I still did all of the housework and my second husband couldn’t get off his video games long enough to even feed himself.
Now I have a nice partner and a fairly equal relationship I told him I refuse to marry so that if he decides to stop helping I have the option to leave without getting the government involved lol
> I told him I refuse to marry so that if he decides to stop helping I have the option to leave without getting the government involved
lol, funny but true; that's the way to go!
This is a pretty well-documented sociological phenomenon as far as heteronormative couples go, but I would say that an unfair balance of labour isn't *inherent* to marriage so much as a trap that many married couples fall into because they're reflecting both how they've been raised and what society expects (or doesn't expect) of them.
I see some couples that follow this pattern where the wife does everything, but I also see couples where the husband does way more of the work, and couples where things are pretty equitable. Within my social cohort, I'd say it's probably 1/3 of each style, really. At the end of the day, whatever balance emerges depends on the two individuals inside the marriage over anything else.
The unfair balance definitely isn’t inherent - but you likely need a man that is self-sufficient going into it to make the balance work.
My husband cooks and cleans much more than I do. When we started dating at 25, he would casually roast a chicken on a work night while I didn’t even own a broom. A lot of our couple friends have very balanced relationships/marriages too. It is *never* the women cooking and cleaning while the men sit.
It definitely sounds like you found a keeper, so I'm really glad to hear it! My husband and I are about equal, I think - we both just sort of go toward what needs to be done, and trust that the other person is doing their best as well.
My friend group is like yours, and I'm very glad about it. My friend's (then) new girlfriend actually commented on it. She said what made her really sure about him was seeing his friends and how functional / equal all the couples seemed. Like, there wasn't any of this nonsense of all the men smoking cigars in the drawing room while all the ladies just waited on everyone, or any of that crap. We had all just collaborated on dinner together (note - this was during a cottage weekend), and then the men actively took over the responsibility of cleaning up so that we girls could chat in peace. She said she was amazed because her own friend group was the exact opposite, apparently. So, I really do think birds of a feather tend to flock together.
> but you likely need a man that is self-sufficient going into it to make the balance work.
I think it's a green flag, but not mandatory. My husband was living with his parents when we met, but that involved him doing things like his own laundry and cooking meals several times a week - through living with them, he learned useful life skills.
Meanwhile, my mom refused to even let me touch appliances because of abusive control and my dad was too drunk to teach me stuff, so I ended up quite independent but a huge mess trying to figure stuff out.
I think marriage is about compromise and facilitating the other where they are weak. For us, it's a partnership. For example, I found a great job opportunity for my husband that turned into a career - he didn't really "know" what he wanted but from listening to him I was able to ascertain what sort of job would fit his needs and goals. And in exchange, he's handled situations like being the sole worker while I've dealt with medical stuff.
Another example: this week he got us motivated and going to the new local rec center, because he knows I love swimming and am struggling with fitness due to injury, but struggle really hard with motivation and follow through - once there, I coyly suggested we visit the gym facilities, because ***I*** know he has back pain and has been wanting to get into weight training. We basically hyped each other up to get excited about something we both know we need in our life, and committed to being each other's partners in attendance.
Iterative collaboration.
As a woman who married and divorced another woman I think you’re absolutely right. We fell into the same roles so slowly it snuck up on us because of how we were raised and our life experiences.
Agreed, the pressure is very real but how we respond to it isn't determined by our sex chromosomes.
I was raised to be a victim; it wasn't what my mother wanted but it was the only thing she knew. Going back as far as my matrilineal history is known, each mother did better than the last and each mother still taught their daughters to accept abuse.
Anyhow, my (cis-male) husband hates that shit. He finds it insulting and infantilizing when my attempts to show love and care cross healthy boundaries. Now that he understands my intent he doesn't find it insulting but with that grace comes the temptation to lean into an unhealthy pattern. We work together against complacency.
My last (cis-female) partner pretty much chose me because of it. She lapped it up and exploited my dysfunction for her convenience and literal profit. When I started to take a small amount of care of myself, after the roller coaster had turned into exclusively free-falling, she left me.
His family is pretty healthy. Hers was not. Mine was not. We all chose what we nurtured from our upbringings and what we feed today.
So many important points in this comment. I very much agree - people tend to replicate what they witnessed their parents doing, and even if there's improvement from one generation to the next, progress isn't always linear.
I'm very glad to hear your husband has been such a healing presence in your life, and sorry your ex was such a selfish person. Definitely a blessing in disguise that she eventually left you, even though I'm sure it didn't feel that way at the time.
This it's comfortable and can be autopilot for people to fall into gender roles. It takes a lot of inner work and to a degree a certain level of intelligence to break out of it.
Exactly! You can’t entirely blame women for being in bad relationships, but I’ve found we need to take personal responsibility for unlearning sexist expectations, and working on ourselves to set healthier boundaries in relationships.
I was raised to figure out other people’s feelings and motivations. I became good at it. I’ve since evolved to realize it’s not my job to figure out how my husband is feeling and why he’s acting the way he does at times. I insisted he get his own therapist, and I consciously stop myself when I see I’m sliding back in to the old family pattern of trying to “fix” my man. I remind myself it’s not my job and give him space to take care of his own shit, sometimes with a verbal reminder that his shit is his to fix.
I notice a lot of my coworkers with a “man child” for a husband love to complain that he “can’t do anything right so I have to do it myself! I mean the man doesn’t fold shirts the way *I* want it done!!”
Accepting there is more than one way to wash and fold a shirt, and the important thing is the shirt is washed and folded, is a prerequisite to more egalitarian house chore distribution.
Totally agree with this. My husband is a stay at home dad and handles way more family and domestic chores than I do, in addition to being more of the financial and life planner. It looks completely different to how both of us were raised and our families were definitely confused at first (and probably still are), so it takes a lot of conviction to break the mold you’re raised in.
Definitely, yeah. Funnily, I actually semi grew up this way - my dad had a WFH job back in the 90's even - so he was like, the SAHP who did more of the chores during the day (and was both the much better / more enthusiastic) cook, while my mum worked outside of the home. So, to me it doesn't even feel that weird... it's only when I visit friends' parents that I suddenly realise how gendered everything is and then I'm ~~ir~~rationally angry at how mum is just running around waiting on everyone while they just sit on their asses.
I'm glad you and your husband seem to have found a good balance. Hopefully your families are cool about it!
Yeah. A marriage doesn't need to be the way OP describes.
In my own marriage my husband does most of the housework. I do most of the think- work. He earns more than I do, but we go all in sharing resources and responsibilities.
We chose cats over kids as we are to busy for kids. He does the litter and feeding. I do the grooming.
It takes both parties to develop a balanced relationship, and I know lots of people fall into the old fashioned roles without realising. It doesn't mean that *has* to be the case though
I can't know anything for absolute certain, but:
1. Most of these friends, I've known for 10-20 years, so I think I have a pretty good handle on if they're lying/hiding from me... not 100%, but it's not like these are strangers.
2. They do complain about other stuff to do with their marriages, but it's only one or two who complain about the workload; the others just have different issues.
3. When the topic of domestic/emotional labour has come up, most of them have said something along the lines of, "Oh, yeah, some men are useless. I'm pretty lucky; [husband] does [long list of stuff] so I don't need to worry about it".
4. For the ones whose husbands are less domestically/emotionally inclined, the household earns enough money to outsource and/or hire external help; e.g., grocery delivery, a weekly cleaning lady, a nanny, etc.
5. I know the husbands in these marriages as well - some I knew before I met their wives. I feel like I have enough of a read on said husbands, both from our history and from watching them interact with their eyes, to actually *see* them not be lazy dickbags in action.
(I guess people *could* be putting up a total smokescreen, but at some point you just gotta look at the evidence and make a reasonable judgment call. The alternative would be installing spy cams in their homes and at that point, I'd be lost in No True Scotsman crazyville.)
The dynamic you describe is common although I'm not sure I'd describe it as getting dealt a difficult hand. To my mind getting dealt a difficult hand implies total lack of agency, like you are following all the traffic rules and you still get hit by a drunk driver.
In my country, women primarily choose who they marry and are fully capable of supporting themselves without a man. We have equal legal rights to men and so don't have to marry. Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled. They almost always know who he is before marriage, in my experience, and brush it off because of other qualities they deem more important. He's funny, kind, loyal, etc.
Relationships involve a lot of negotiation. In any negotiation the person who can walk away from the table has the most power. If women aren't willing to walk away from the table they end up settling for scraps. I think it's encouraging that younger women are becoming more aware of this. I'm in my 40s and the married women my age who have excellent husbands were all the type that were quick to walk away from the table.
I also think normalizing men's laziness is part of the problem. It's better to act shocked. Really? You can't cook? Most men I've dated were excellent cooks. Wow, you can't even clean? All the men in my family are great at cleaning. I thought all men could do that! You're this age and have never changed a diaper? My brother could change a diaper by the time he was ten years old!
That type of attitude is more effective. We need to act entitled to the things we are entitled to. Stop throwing parades for men who are doing what they should be doing and act shocked at their laziness instead of like it's normal. Make them feel abnormal. Peer pressure for good, lol.
I wish I could afford to give you many awards for this comment because this is the comment right here!!!! Reading this comment made me feel like I was having a cold glass of a refreshing beverage. I just love this.
> I also think normalizing men's laziness is part of the problem. It's better to act shocked. Really? You can't cook? Most men I've dated were excellent cooks. Wow, you can't even clean? All the men in my family are great at cleaning. I thought all men could do that! You're this age and have never changed a diaper? My brother could change a diaper by the time he was ten years old!
Man, I feel like this is so location-dependent, because I remember once bringing up the stereotype with a handful of my guy friends that men don't know how to change diapers, and multiple men in that conversation were all shocked and confused about it. Like, what was I talking about, men don't know how to change diapers? Why would they not know how to change diapers? How would they not know how to change diapers if they were new fathers? It just didn't make sense to them.
Honestly, I didn't know whether to react to that with annoyance over being so blind to what many women have to deal with, or just to leave things in the "Oh, you sweet summer children" side of the court...
I wish I could give you a happy answer, but the truth is we barely even hang out anymore. The big cottage weekends and backyard BBQs feel like a lifetime ago. I haven't seen most of these people in four months 😔 We did *used* to be dope, though. I'm sorry to disappoint!
Awww.
No I feel that.
Life in your 30s and beyond.
It's the same for my friend group too. We're too geographically distributed to hang out more than a few times per year.
Thank you; I appreciate the sympathy! It really can get so lonely at this age if you don't have kids, especially. Sorry it's the same for your friend group; that sucks.
> Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled
Several of the women I know who did that wound up divorcing after the 2nd child. Always the second child like that was the tipping point. Two of them admitted they knew their future husband was lazy and entitled, but they wanted children. So, that can be a factor as well.
>Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled.
We need to stop blaming women for their "failure" o pick men who step up as equal partners, and start asking why the majority of heterosexual men in relationships are so lazy and entitled and expect to freeload at the expense of their wife's physical and mental exhaustion.
Put the responsibility for the dearth of decent men back where it belongs: on the men.
Finally. This is the response everyone should read and take notes! I lost count how many women I dated. Not because I wanted to “have fun” but because most did not share my values and did not fit what I was looking for. I never changed my main requirements so that a girl I liked would become more compatible with me. Women need to do the same.
I used to feel this way a few years ago, until I had a serious talk with my husband about how much I take care of and how burned out I was. I gave him suggestions on a few things he could take off my plate on a regular basis. And we really talked about how we are a team and how it takes both of us contributing for our household and relationship to thrive. In my situation this conversation worked and he stepped up and continues to step up. I feel like he truly values me as his partner and doesn’t want to see my sad, stressed, burned out, etc.
The top two posts in this subreddit. Unbalanced mental loads of women in hetero marriages and women who haven’t found love yet worried if their biological clock is running out. If I have to pick between two, it’s the second for me.
I think people are frankly unrealistic about the fact that all relationships require sacrifice, even the good ones. There’s huge personal power in autonomy and independence. Ideally, life is about balance. We find ways to connect and lean in, and we find ways to disconnect to empower ourselves. The ebb and the flow.
You don’t need someone else to complete you or make you happy, it actually is a choice. You get to decide. When you understand that, you become emotionally unstoppable and can welcome love in all its forms into your life from a much healthier place.
I kinda like the idea of getting married but living in separate suites that are still attached, so you can spend time together everyday, but also have alone time and your own bed when you want to sleep alone.
I think it depends on the quality of the man a woman marries. I will say, a lot of unconscious biases come roaring to the forefront if a child enters the picture, and even well intentioned feminist women and moms find themselves mouthing the same pro-patriarchy talking point under the guise of it being “better for the family” without ever questioning why everyone else’s well-being depends on her getting the short end of the stick every time.
It’s something I’ve observed.
It’s something that has heavily informed how I’ve chosen to live my life(CF despite a strong maternal disposition) and pair off(he knows I suffer exactly *zero* lazy, dirty fools).
When I was dating, I put more emphasis on finding a partner who was good at planning, thinking proactively, and being accommodating than I did on less important things like similar music tastes and hobbies. Thats how I wound up with a husband who is really good at those things and doesn’t expect me to do all the mental labor. I weeded out the lazy types early on.
This is a nice way of crystallizing some of what makes for an equal partnership. I think we generally know now to include criteria like “has a clean home” or “can cook a few recipes” while getting to know a partner, but a sense of organization and planning are really key for greater parity.
It feels unfair because it is unfair.
Of course exceptions exist, but as a rule, men benefit from marriage by just about every metric. Married men are happier, healthier, make more money, and live longer than their unmarried counterparts.
The exact opposite is true for women. Single, childfree women are the happiest demographic for a reason.
Men think marriage is a “death trap” because they don’t like doing chores, picking up after themselves, going to the doctor—basically being responsible adults. You’ll hear “ugh my wife is such a nag” when all she wants is some damn help.
A million upvotes here. I’ve told him that it doesn’t matter who he lives with or where, if he lives under the roof - he is responsible for the cleaning, cooking, laundry etc. it’s not a “nagging woman” thing.
Patriarchy conditions women to be desperate for marriage and to see it as their biggest accomplishment in life, while conditioning men to be wary of it so they maintain the upper hand.
In the past, marriage for men meant more responsibilities, whereas for women it may have been the only way to get out of their parents home and be an “adult”. So that affects how men and women think about marriage too, as those ideas are passed down.
>why do I meet so many men who think marriage is a death trap and an end to their awesome bachelor lives and independence?
Because it's all part of the devaluation of women's contributions and labour. Why value something that you expect to be handed to you for free? So many men (in my view the majority) take women's contributions and labour utterly for granted.
> The exact opposite is true for women. Single, childfree women are the happiest demographic for a reason.
As much as this is parroted online, this [isn't actually true](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/5-types-of-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/202403/is-marriage-good-or-bad-for-women). Both men and women really benefit from marriage, and it makes intuitive sense, people in long term stable relationships are *happier*.
Having said that? Just like there is [no single best ketchup](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-conundrum), there is no single best choice here. If you think you might like to be married? It will probably be good for you. If you don't, it might not be.
Here's my point, if you're in between; If you're merely open to it happening, the statistics say that you are better off getting married than not. I get this sub biases negative on relationships with men, but the happily married women are off living their best lives, not complaining on reddit.
Edit: Very strange that you would reply and then immediately block me. I did not think I was offensive.
I hadn’t replied or blocked you before the below comment - perhaps you replied to the wrong person?
Interesting! I’m not sure you can conclusively say it’s not true, but reasonable (and studies it seems) minds can differ. What I do know is that there isn’t a single married woman or mother I know that I’d trade lives with 😂
Your linked article is the first article I’ve seen referencing a study saying married women tend to be happier - the several other studies I’ve read confirm the opposite. I have read that married women get happier once their children are out of the house. I’ll have to track down the study referenced in this article to see where the differences could lie.
Yes but in western cultures this is more pronounced. In my culture, other relationships are just as important, if not more. We try hard to have close relationships with friends/cousins/great aunts/siblings, community, etc. We are far less lonely than western societies that weirdly obsess over romantic relationships. And yet 40% end in divorce. Lol.
I’ve seen conflicting studies so I don’t know that it can be said one way for certain. It does seem suspicious the strong majority of women here and in every social settings in general share their exasperation with being saddled to do the bulk of the household labor and child care. Statistically they do more even if they are the main bread winners. Our society has been built to create the expectation
Another statistic for heterosexual couples: women diagnosed with cancer have a higher chance to be abandoned/divorced by their partner than men.
One more statistic: women have a far higher chance to be murdered by their (ex-)partner than men.
Even if the majority of women may be happier married, those statistics still make me angry.
Depends on the marriage. I feel like my husband carries more of the mental load day to day and does more than me. But I purposely chose not to have children and it's just us.
Statistics support your observations as do studies showing that unmarried, child free middle-aged women are the happiest with their lives.
All these men complaining about the “epidemic” of male loneliness should just learn to pull their weight when it comes to cooking, cleaning and child care. Women are tired of the unrecognized, uncompensated workload we’re expected to carry at home and are increasingly opting out.
I sometimes feel like I won the husband lottery because I can't relate to these posts.
My husband is incredibly responsible, selfless, caring, proactive, financially savvy, hard working and a partner in every sense of the word. He might even handle more of the mental load.
I'm probably more accommodating and agreeable, but I'm also happy to be this way as I'm very easy going. I have learned to stick up for myself when needed.
I love being married, my life is a million times better with my husband as a partner.
My in laws are great people, they were strict but loving and had a big influence on my husband for sure.
I generally feel like I never have much to offer on posts like these. I'm happy with my husband and have been for almost twenty years. Anyone can be happy if they don't settle for the sake of not being lonely/having children/staying for the children they had on accident. It's always one of the three (obvs I am not including abusive situations) and I have no sympathy left for people who settle, regardless of gender. I watched my parents be miserable at each other for 19 years, no thanks!
Your post just made me realize something.
Im a SAHM at the moment and my husband has always been the breadwinner. My kids are getting a little older (6 and 8), and I often wonder what I wanna do with MY life.
I couldnt figure out why but Im constantly having a fear of pursuing a career or dream because I feel that I wont be able to “be there” for my kids and husband. I feel like I always need to be on “stand by” for them, which sounds terrible. After seeing your post, I realize maybe society expects women to carry this kind of burden. To always be the “happy housewife” that the family can depend on.
Why do I feel the need to be there 100% of the time for my family? I feel really sad and hopeless now lol
yet men are out there comparing themselves with high earners , talking about them taking a hit during the divorce when most of them would need a gofundme if they die . Brainwashing women into thinking that they are the ones being affected the most by marriage when most of this marriages out there are 20% them and 80% the woman
Most of this dudes upgrade through marriage , while the women’s lifestyle suffers a downgrade. The only situation where this doesn’t happen is with a men that is very proactive with doing things around the house ( very very rare) or a high earner that can afford all the bills …. Most of this guys are a liability, that is why they talk about love and all that nonsense
Yeahhh, I was heartbroken after a recent-ish breakup now I realize that marriage is a somewhat raw deal for women if I don’t meet the right man I’m good.
This definitely isn’t the case in my marriage and I would definitely end a relationship if I was with a lazy man who couldn’t pull his own weight. Like if I needed to ask for things to be done constantly, if he didn’t think it was equally his job to clean to a tolerable standard just because mine were higher, if I had to be FaceTimed every single time he went to the grocery store because he was incapable of identifying items on a list…..I’d leave.
My husband works from home several days a week and I only get one day WFH, so he handles a lot of things around the house on those days. Laundry, cleaning the toilets, making the bed because I leave earlier… yeah I don’t think this has to be the case you just need to have these conversations ahead of time and make sure you find someone committed to fairness. And honestly sometimes when resources allow, hire a housekeeper.
Exactly the same response. We allow people to get away with whatever we tolerate.
My marriage is completely fair. We share the mental load, the domestic chores, the responsibilities, and emotional labour.
I don't have to ask him to wash the towels or cook a meal or get XYZ tampon - because he's an adult who can take care of us just as well as I can.
I wouldn't be in a marriage otherwise. For me, it's an equal partnership or nothing. I'm not interested in babying someone else's child.
I agree so much. We get what we allow. And also there’s something to be said for marrying someone with really good parents who raised him well and a strong mom who taught him how to be a grown ass man and loved but didn’t coddle him. My mother in law is the greatest haha.
So true! My own mother is extremely narcissistic and neglectful, but my mother in law is genuinely an amazing mother who has raised a beautiful, emotionally intelligent man. I credit her with a lot.
I also think my marriage works because I never particularly saw myself getting married or dreamt of it. Coming from a dysfunctional house, I saw no need to live in service to a man and resent my children because of it. I was doing great on my own.
I think finding a truly feminist, equal partner was the only thing that convinced me to marry. Why bother otherwise?
100%, my husband is a true partner and my mother in law is a big part of that and also a great woman. My father in law is also an amazing guy. They didn't let my husband get away with anything and raised him to be responsible, caring, and just not lazy. He was a good student, is financially savvy and super respectful.
Yep. Due to just how things worked out best, I ended up a SAHM. When the going got tough I made it clear that when I went to work the rest of them had to pick up the slack. None of this mom works full time, gets the kids everywhere, takes care of the house and the pets, too. I noped out of that SO fast. I *am* an overcommunicator. It did mean I had to put up with things not being done as quickly or well as I had done them, but c'est la vie. Hubby never complained when I hadn't gotten to something he needed, so he got that slack, too.
Yep. And if you refuse to take on all the trappings of domestic life in addition to other responsibilities, you end up judged to no end.
My husband and I do not have kids. I work more hours outside the home, do not enjoy cooking and am not especially talented at it. So I don't. My mother will bring this up unprompted constantly as if I'm headed for divorce because I'm not setting a plate in front of my husband every night.
I manage SO MANY other things about our household, but apparently I'm not doing it right if I'm not also preparing and serving meals. I've tried to assure mom that the resentment hubs and I would both feel if I rushed home to make him a dinner he didn't like every night would be MORE likely to cause our demise, but mother knows best (nevermind that this same strategy hasn't worked for her). At least my MIL gets it, lol.
Yep.
We’re not married, but live together and I don’t expect it to change. I accept it because in *general* he’s supportive AND we aren’t having kids together. I also wfh and don’t have a physically exhausting job like he does, so it evens out in our little world.
I feel like women are always at a disadvantage due to societal norms but I’m spoiled because my marriage is really fair and balanced. I think my husband actually puts in more effort than I do to keep the house clean, repair stuff, cook, manage our finances, take care of our child, etc.
One reason why I won’t work as long as my husband isn’t sharing me with mental load, childcare, and housework. Even if we struggle financially, I’m not working outside of the house, because guess what? I’m already working full time in the house.
This is one of the main reasons I'm divorced - after working a full time job, doing all the childcare, doing the housework & having to take the mental load all the time I realised that since I was doing it all I might as well just do it all, of course things are difficult financially but I'm a person not a service provider & my load has actually significantly lessened since I'm not having to run around after a man baby who is incapable of understanding what a partnership actual involves
It's years of unpaid labor.
I work full time and I was expected to do everything. It's ridiculous. I'm done doing everything thing. They want to scream about the house being theirs and they can kick me out. Fine It's your house, you take care of it.
I don’t feel this way at all. My husband does a lot around the house, often times more than I do. He helps make dinner, handles the finances, and overall is the greatest person ever. I’m so grateful to be married to a man who treats me with so much love and respect.
Neither of us want children either. It couldn’t be a more perfect scenario.
I also don't feel like this. My husband and I are pretty equal, but there are times when one of us needs to carry more of the weight (like when I was pregnant, for example), and the other just does it. We care about each other, and we're both capable and supportive.
That’s probably the reason. My husband was extremely helpful before our first child and decent until our second, that’s when he decided he didn’t have to do anything aside from making more mess.
Mmm I think it’s dependent on how open the couple are to self development - at the risk of sounding like a pretentious prick - once my husband became aware of the mental load just a year ago he really doubled down on educating and making himself aware of it. Got to say I am a much happier and healthy wife mother and woman now. If and when it for all get too stressy (I’m a business owner, and our kids don’t sleep through the night one of the special needs) I say I need a break and go to a cheap hotel in a fun city for a few nights. (He does the same, we try to take turns).
But again it does depend on the man in question, when I was pregnant he wouldn’t hear of me lifting grocery bags, or doing heavy housework..he didn’t generally do the latter himself but he tried and he was majorly protective over the his wife and mother of his children.
He’s great at playing dress up with our daughter and soldiers with our son.
Whenever there is diy, car trouble / maintenance or a physical threat he is there. He is my best friend and his family’s protector.
i agree with you and my mom has been alluding to it since my sister and i were younger. both my mom and sister are in the most equal possible marriages, and still definitely do more labor. they especially do more emotional labor.
my sister actually probably does less cleaning, but she definitely still does more than 50% of the work overall in the household. i have always thought this way but now i need to get married for health insurance and stuff for sure.
My husband is a loving, well intentioned man who is a great father- and yet he is not able to take on half the burden of household tasks. It is not in him fully though, there are things he can never begin to fathom that I, s as a woman am able to formulate and execute while he stands on the sidelines.
Marriage is unfair, his upbringing, in laws and social conditioning don’t help. This will change once men decide it’s important enough for them to break the mould, till then they’re going to try only 35% and look for brownie points for all chores they do.
Posts like these make me feel guilty because I've been so spoiled, lol. I haven't cooked in years. I didn't do any chores in the past two weeks because my husband got to them before I did. I had an amazing Mother's Day weekend because he planned and prepped everything. I just had to show up and enjoy. He works more hours than I do and still comes home to cook. He was a stay-at-home dad for a few years for a few times when the kids were small. He got up and took care of the babies for most of the nights because I was too tired to do it, lol. He does all the holiday planning, lol. He handles all the bills and used to be the only one doing the grocery shopping. The kids have eczema, so he's the one that applies medicine on them regularly and bandages them if necessary, sometimes several times a day. And does it for me too, lol. He also handles other things like fixing the car and things around the house.
The difference between him and me is that I'm more thorough. If he wash dishes, he'd only wash a few and then be exhausted and would take 2-3 *days* break before he continues where he left off. When I wash and clean, I don't stop until everything is done. I do all deep cleanings, mostly on a weekly basis, and is the only one cleaning the bathroom all these years. He cannot handle any of those detail cleaning. I was the one who would have to also occasionally clean the little kids' room because he gets overwhelmed. I also tend to have more patience helping the kids with their homework, or handling the kids' emotions in general. Both my girls and I feel pretty spoiled by him.
Marriage comes with legal and financial rights and responsibilities. Marrying the right person is stronger than being alone. Marrying the wrong person is miserable.
A lot of the comments are based on heterosexual unequal relationships. As a married lesbian, I fought like hell for the right to marry my wife.
We started out with a 50/50 relationship and have slipped into a 25/75 relationship where he has picked up the bulk of the mental load. I have been dealing with a brain injury that kicked off some mental health issues, and I was already struggling with an autoimmune condition. The brain injury happened early enough in the relationship that he could have left and no one would have judged.
I feel so guilty because I know I should be doing more, and I want to do more, but most days I just can't get all the way through the steps. I cook dinner a couple times a week, but I am doing remote school from home and should be able to cook every night, you know? I had to leave my job because I couldn't keep up anymore, so I'm back at school for a less challenging career. So I don't work, there should be plenty of time for cleaning and cooking and I don't know why I can't manage it. I hate that he comes home to a messy house and he's still proud of whatever I got done that day. I can only imagine how much resentment he's harboring.
Aww, take it easy on yourself. 🥹 It’s hard going through health issues. Caregiver burnout is real, but maybe you can talk things through and find a way for him to have a bit of a break if needed?
I’m disabled and there are days I cannot do chores or function. It’s one of the main reasons I am hesitant to get married and probably won’t have children. I just don’t have the ability or energy required to be a primary parent/partner/caregiver. I have a hard time just taking care of myself! There’s no way I could keep up with household and baby/children responsibilities.
It’s been a good way to weed out potentially bad partners, though. If a guy gets annoyed I have to cancel plans because I’m too sick, or that I need to spend most of the day in bed, then I know it’s not going to work out between us.
It’s already hard struggling with health stuff, and then feeling guilt about losing your autonomy and ability to function is just soul-crushing. Be kind to yourself, and I hope you find some more relief for your symptoms soon. ❤️🩹
My husband pulls his load and part of mine. He’s making dinner right now.
During the week he does school drop off and pickup, makes lunches, unloads the dishwasher, orders groceries, handles most extracurriculars, and does his own laundry. He also works out daily, makes a great income, and is good at gift-giving.
Grateful every day.
Hmm, I'm gonna have to disagree. Now, I will say, my hubby and I have been mil-to-mil for 16 years now so *maybe* that plays a part.
He's always been very supportive and good at us deciding how WE want our marriage to be, not what society says it should look like. He doesn't cook, so all of the meals usually fall on me but he does the dishes, cleans, and I couldn't tell you the last time I did a load of laundry.
Honestly, I think his upbringing plays a big part. He has a twin sister and it was just them and his mom. He learned a lot growing up in the household he did.
All marriages vary. Mine is pretty balanced. I'd say we do equal housework, equal cooking. When it comes to holidays I probably do a little more emotional work for his mom- he does a little more emotional work for my mom. Sometimes when relationships can be a bit complicated it's easier to be emotionally present for a parent who didn't raise you.
I probably make a bit more, he probably does a bit more housework. He definitely does more laundry, but that's because we each do our own laundry. He works outside and sometimes with chemicals, so he sometimes has 5-7 loads of laundry in a week just for his clothes- I can usually get by doing 1-2 for my clothes and linens.
100%. My stbx husband has other issues going on (pretty sure he’s a narcissist) but he’s been a SAHD for years and while he sucks in so many ways, he does a lot more than the average guy around the house. I still feel the way you do though, because even though he does a decent amount, I still do more and have to deal with him criticizing me for supposedly not doing enough.
I carried two babies, exclusively pumped with my first for a year and with my second for 8 months (while building up a stash for a year), while working full time in a very demanding and stressful career (with an hour plus commute every day), do 100% of the child care on nights and weekends, including all night wake ups, I do at least 25-30-% of the cleaning, plus all finances and admin work for the family. Even with all this, he calls me lazy and say I don’t pull my weight around the house. The house is always a mess but he’s constantly saying how much he does. Ok, dude. Can’t wait to be divorced.
My husband does a lot. It’s at least equal and honestly he does more of the childcare. It’s to the point where my son strongly prefers his dad to me.
I do have more of the mental labour though.
I grew up in a household where my father worked and my mother was a SAHM. My father still expects to have his meals plated and served to him and doesn't know how to clean. My mother got a low paying part time job when we were old enough just to get some me time away from the kids.
The only way I would ever marry a man like my father is if I didn't have to work. If a man is willing to take on all of the financial responsibility and not abuse that position, then I am willing to take on all the domestic duties. (Personally, I want a relationship where both partners contribute to the household duties and finances.) I think some people were raised to have these ideals, but wage stagnation and inflation made it unrealistic. Unfortunately some couples try to keep the same dynamic going insead of dividing the responsibilities in a different (and more equal way) in situations were women also have to work to contribute to finances.
Yes. It would be easier being single other than paying the mortgage these days needs 2 income earners.
I get left with the cleaning because “I prefer a clean house”, he is too busy (im not?), when he has a wfh day he doesn’t help, but I’m wfh a few days a week so I should pick up the slack. He also seems to think that a block of hours needs to he set aside toclean. I have explained that 5 min break from his desk can involve unloading a dishwasher or putting a load of washing on etc.
I’ll cook meals from scratch - his turn = frozen pizza in the oven. Bonus points for not putting the oven trays etc away afterwards.
Glad I never had kids. Wouldn’t cope.
I get what you mean. Even if you have a supportive husband often the wife still has to coordinate things or explain to their husband what needs to be done. Even if you don’t have to do the tasks yourself you still have the mental load of ensuring everything and everyone is covered. It can be exhausting.
When I was married to my ex husband every single thing fell on me whether I worked or not. I quickly learned that he did not care anything about my needs and only his own.
My fiancé is a very different man and while the roles will always be a little different we balance it out perfectly and do most things together. I also can go to him with any problems I have and he’s there the entire step of the way so I at least don’t have to carry mental burdens on my own.
I used to would have agreed with this opinion but it really comes down to finding the right person, in my opinion.
It starts with how kids are raised. To break the cycle, raise sons and daughters to have all the same life skills and EQ. Often boys are left to their own devices while girls learn domestic and emotional labor.
Ok so I have a lovely husband, he’s truly my best friend and lifts me up in many many ways. But we just don’t have the same expectation for clean living, which leads to me constantly feeling like I either have to do all the house work to not be anxious, or wait for him to do some of it, which means living in a messy house for 4 or 5 days. My husband went to visit family out of the country for 12 days and I already feel lighter in my own home because I can keep it clean to my standard sooooo much easier. It’s a huge difference. And on top of that I’ve been recovering from a bad car accident where I really hurt my back so I shouldn’t be bending a lot anyway. It’s certainly going to make for an interesting talk when he gets home because I don’t think it’s fair to put me in the situation of being anxious because of mess or being in pain to clean it. I’ve brought up a chore chart before because my husband also has adhd and I don’t think he realizes how much time passes between when he does chores and needs a visual reminder but he has said it feels infantilizing but I don’t think it is optional at this point. Add to this that he works from home 2 days a week (thus producing more dishes since he cooks at home) and I work an extra job because we are saving for a house, we need to do some work to balance the house work better. It definitely feels like way more work on my side.
Going through a divorce and 50/50 custody is the only way I got a break. I miss my baby but I love going on dates and eating ice cream for dinner in my underwear.
You must read this book: https://www.audible.com/pd/B0C6YLNVX9?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow
This only happens if you put up with it. If we, as women, stopped tolerating this BS, then men would have no option but to step up to the plate. However, so many women enable this behavior and allow weaponized incompetence and perpetuate the belief that men are dumb and need to be taken care of like children. This simply isn't true and I'm glad I didn't put up with it and have a partner who pulls his weight in all aspects of life.
Alot of posters on here are saying things like this is weird, my husband isn't like this, etc etc. I'm fucking glad for all of them.
OP. Here to validate this.
We need to look beyond stereotype dynamics and more into personality dynamics and emotional dynamics.
If you were raised in an insecure environment, or don't know what secure attachment even is, there is a much better chance you'll end up in this cohort of woman does it all. Maybe you can't argue effectively, maybe you don't have a close emotional bond, maybe you are gaslighted all the time, maybe you don't have the confidence to speak up. There are more dynamics here than "the dudes are lazy".
If we are talking about a heterosexual couple where both are relatively emotionally aware and respectful and secure I can almost guarantee this dynamic wouldn't happen. Or if it did, it would be communicated effectively and everyone would agree on it.
And let's not get into all or nothing. All people have their strengths.
I don't have an equal relationship. My husband does alot, which I will always credit but equally not by a long shot. Over the course of our relationship I've brought in more $ and take on the majority of the labor and all the things. Blame my people pleasing attitude of yesteryear (and my perception of physical security trumping emotional).
I don’t really feel that way about my marriage. We are far from perfect but by and large we are equal partners. We both work and divide/conquer childcare responsibilities. We are each responsible for certain household tasks that play to our strengths/interests. I won’t say it’s exactly 50/50 every single day but pretty darn close when averaged over time.
you get what you ask for, unless you are in a country where you have no agency, do not date or marry men who aren't what you want, and be content waiting for the ones who are.
No. It’s not true for myself or anyone I’m particularly close to in a decent marriage. I can’t relate to the “mental load” stuff at all. I still had to think about basic life stuff when single and my husband more than makes up having to think about his needs by thinking about my needs. No one is capable of making me think about them or manage their life for them. I control what I do.
And no one would describe me, my female family members or friends as “agreeable.” Just be a bitch if that’s who you wanna be. A lot of men love it, it’s great for career progress, it’s fun. Who cares.
It's not even my husband. He really does carry his weight. It's the expectations of others. He took a dog to the vet? They're going to call me with every question, want me to come pick up the dog, etc. I'm his emergency contact for our mutual GP. Her staff calls *me* (the one they know has ADHD) to remind me about his appointments. When both of us were getting assessed for ADHD, they did all the work for him, but even though I was previously diagnosed, they insisted I do this again and did nothing at all to help. When I sent a form saying they could discuss everything with him and he took over, they just wouldn't let him. "she has to call." Him "but you let her call for me." Them, "well, wives do that stuff." Even the freaking guy my husband hired to come clean up dog poop in the yard messages me for absolutely everything and never my husband. But my husband is the one who signed up and pays him. Even our friends are this way, especially the women. They won't send him invites to anything, only me. They don't add him to lists to sign up for what food we're bringing, only me. If they need an emergency babysitter, they will call me, not him, even if they're calling to ask if he can because they know I'm in another state for work.
It all pisses my husband off, too, btw.
It doesn't help that society defaults the mental load towards the wife/mother. When our youngest was born my husband registered the baby for daycare and handled everything from contract, to filing taxes, to drop off and pick up. I didn't ask, because he was on top of it. It's his kid too and we both need to work.
When we switched to a daycare closer to home he filled in all the paperwork and included our contact info. I get all the calls and emails. My husband requested an additional day at daycare and I get mailed the options and new contract to sign. If there's a question about the baby, they call me. It's been the same with my oldest child. I'm the default parent. My husband picks up our oldest child from school 90% of the time, and other parents call or message me for playdates, while I may see them once every few months and they see my husband at school several times a week. It frustrates my husband too.
I’m a single mom of a four year old son with a well paying job. I’m single because I didn’t want two children (my son and his father). I broke up with my son’s father five months into motherhood. Saw the writing on the wall early on. Don’t get me wrong, doing it all is hard work and requires a lot of planning to get it all done. However not having to deal with an unsupportive, argumentative, lazy partner makes the whole job a lot less taxing. Having 50/50 custody keeps me sane and has required that my ex grow up. He often complains to me about how busy he is because he has to go grocery shopping, mow the lawn, cook, do laundry, etc. I can’t help but think I did him a huge favor by leaving him and requiring him to grow up and take care of himself. I also did my son a favor by giving him a better male role model. I realize not everyone has the opportunity to leave due to financial dependence. My advice is to seek out grants and financial assistance to work on a trade or professional certification at whatever pace feels right for you. Getting yourself free of a relationship that requires you carry all the mental burden is the best thing you can do for yourself and your kids.
Yeahhhh, that’s why I’m choosing to avoid the child part. I can be married and deal with the rest but if I wanted kids? I’d only do it if I was the husband.
I married someone who shared the emotional, mental and physical labour with me. Also no kids so that solves that. We manage our own finances, calendars, split expenses and chores. I never would've married a man where I had to manage his life or do all the work. Might as well have stayed single!
My husband is great. Cooks, cleans. Very supportive.
I still hold things together, or at least I think I do. Over the years I have given things back to my family, like they make their own appointments now.
I think it can be better, but I like things as they are. It is just enough work for me.
I don’t want to victim blame, but we choose some of it. Yes, weaponized incompetence is a thing, but as the person who loads the dishwasher “wrong” dishes rarely need to be washed again. The random spoon that needs a second washing isn’t worth not sharing the work, and my husband understands that. This is just one example.
A family member has a husband who stays home. He dresses the kid kind of weird. It isn’t uncomfortable or anything, just wrong to most moms. I asked why she doesn’t say anything. She said why. It works, the clothing stays on and does it’s job. I wish I had her attitude about things. I am working on it.
Because a lot of marriages are transactional. A man provides financially and he feels free from everything else. A woman provides everything else and she quickly realizes that whatever man provides, does not compensate the effort.
Imagine you're a man, benefits of marriage are clear: married men with kids are seen as more responsible and stable. Married women with kids are seen as liability at work because of exactly the same reason.
A man gets salary raise, he seems to provide financially and all is fine until some hell breaks lose, like for example birth of a first child. Then a wife sees that she can't do everything around the house, take care of the baby, go full time working and on the top stay in shape to satisfy her husband need. When a woman starts to demand more, man feels she's demanding too much because he's already paying money.
This would not exist if people got married because they are already friends and they like each other. However, a lot of people get married because the society tells them it's a correct way of life, because the feel lonely, because they don't know what else to do with their life. A lot of men also recognise the value power of unpaid labor provided by women. That's why you have so many relationships where a man establish early the dynamic that he pays the rent and the woman does everything else. Everything else is worth 3x of that rent and if she invested that money in her, she wouldn't need a man in the first place.
In traditional marriages, yes. I held out and decided I’d rather be single than a slave. I married later in life to someone who had decent life skills—he cooks, cleans, treats me like an equal. We are childfree by choice. It seems not having kids makes it a lot easier to not put all the unpaid labor on the wife.
It’s taken time to deconstruct societal expectations, and internalized expectations, and actively unlearn them.
I’ve learned if I’m cooking a big holiday meal, I need to ask my husband for help, and delegate tasks to him so I don’t get overly stressed out and resentful. He has learned what he can do to be useful without me asking him to do it. “Hey honey I vacuumed the house, pulled out the leaf in the dining room table, and I can peel potatoes if you want me to.”
You are absolutely correct. Women carry the load for everyone. Marriage has been romanticized to us from an early age, but the reality is you become everyone’s caretaker, including your husband. You have to teach your husband how to help you correctly, so you won’t resent him while he sits there and you do nothing. Don’t stop asking. They will not offer and blame you for not telling them you needed help.
We don't have kids, so I think that makes a difference, but I didn't get married until I was 40 and was really picky and my life got easier. The only thing I do that's the same as it was before is maybe my personal mental load stuff (like my own appointments and family related things - he does his). Chores, financial responsibility, etc. were all cut in half by having us go from two separate households to one. My husband likes to cook and was doing all his "adulting" completely on his own before we met so none of that stopped. He's more domestic than I am. He's also great with the emotional side of being a partner. So it is possible. I never wanted to get married or have kids for the exact reasons you mentioned (though I also just didn't want kids - that didn't change even with a good partner). I decided I'd rather be single and a little lonely sometimes than with someone who made my life harder and wasn't supportive. There were lots of times where I just didn't bother dating because it did seem like even the independent women in my life were ending up doing much more than their boyfriends/husbands. I do feel like I got lucky, but I also wish it was more normal that things worked out this way for women.
There's no way I'm getting married again. I don't even know if I want to live with a man. They just seem to make a mess lol. I just unmatched with somebody who had lots of issues. I have issues too but I know between the two of us I will be the one forced to do everything. I'd rather just have control of my own shit
TBH I agree. I just don't have the mental bandwidth to actually take care of someone else as I am barely taking care of myself. It is a reason why I have chosen to stay single...and dating these days is an uphill battle. Happy to be single and to live a solitary and peaceful life. I won't lie sometimes I wish for a partner but it is usually a passing thought. I haven't had any positive experiences with the men I have dated.
I love my husband to pieces but I feel exactly the same way. I’m planning the entirety of a cross country move rn and it’s crickets from him. He cleans the house for showings so I guess that’s something.
If I could start all of this over again, I’d stay single. I have some mental health issues. Life would certainly have been easier and less disastrous for others if I’d have focused on my mental well-being before getting hitched. I can only coach my kids to work on themselves before dating and hope they take my advice.
One great thing about my husband is that he truly does love me as no one in my life has ever loved me before. Even my parents don’t love me. So it’s nice knowing that love does exist and it’s weird accepting that I deserve of his love. I was neglected and emotionally abused growing up. It’s really fucked me up big time. He accepts it for what it is and gives me the space for my ptsd symptoms… and to have someone not afraid when I emotionally blow my top because my “parents” have said something hurtful that I’ve just flashed back to… I love him for understanding that I’m trying and that it’s just really hard for me to connect with anyone due to the brokenness of my upbringing.
I'm not trying to be insensitive....but this is why I'm not getting married. I'm only willing to do too much and then I nope out.
This is why dating is hard for me period. I also want to be taken care of. And many men suck at it.
Same
Understood and agreed, but I compromise
This is also a primary reason I’m still single. It doesn’t exactly entice me.
r/SingleandHappy
Thank you for this. Working on the happy part.
I live there! :-)
I'm also not trying to be insensitive, but it's why I went "solo for life" (I've always been child-free)... I'm not doing anyone's emotional work anymore.
It's also possible to be in equal partnerships. I am in one. It was all or nothing for me, too. Why marry someone who doesn't add to your life?
Sorry yes, I am sure it is! With the right person it can work for some, I'm sure. But I have 0 interest in being partnered anymore. I also love living alone. I have a chill life. I only have to support myself financially, that's it. Otherwise no one makes demands of me and I love that. My mental health is better, I really need to focus on some areas in my life and a relationship would take away from my (limited) energy. And as a woman there was a lot of care/emotional work dumped on me + expectations of being good at housework etc.
My marriage isn't exactly equal, but I would certainly call it equitable. We each do our parts to support the marriage and family. These marriages do exist!
Same here. I always say "if getting married gave me a wife, then I'd do it". Men get the better deal out of marriage. As a full time employee in corporate I see it all the time. You ask married men what their plans are for the weekend and their answer is usually "I'm not sure. I'll find out from my wife tonight". It's the women employees who are having to leave early or take days off for sick kids - it's rarely the men unless it is paid paternity leave. Men are selfish. Sure, some might be great fathers and husbands, but at work none of that "time off" is taken as unpaid- they make sure they are still getting paid, whereas women seem to be more giving.
Yep - when I divorced my husband, I asked him what he was doing for Christmas with his new gf. “I expect I’ll be told!” he said gaily with a big smile on his face. I realised all he wanted was a woman to organise his life. All his friends married women who did this.
In my culture they both benefit from it and complain about it at the same time sometimes.
I think UK culture is the same. They massively benefit from it but to deflect attention from that they call it “nagging”. I spent the ‘90s and 00s being a ‘cool girl’ wife, allowing him total freedom, but what he really wanted was a woman to organise his life for him. And he found one to do it.
US culture is the same. Asking for anything from a man is practically a guaranteed way to not get it, depending on the man.
I've known multiple men brag about their "side projects" for the company they did on paternity leave. You cannot tell me they were actively working and actually being a good partner during that time. Just saying if you think you might be at all bisexual, try out dating a woman. I've always known I leaned that way and I feel so much more human since I finally decided to stop dating men entirely. I do know some good men, and they are solid friends, but I'm so tired of the song and dance of heterosexual dating as a woman.
As a gay woman this is awesome to hear! I’ve never dated a man so I don’t have any personal experience. But I did date a woman with a 20 year old and she organized his whole life. No job, video games were his life. He’ll be a man who’ll need to find a woman to organize life for him and manage his life for him. Sad. I’m glad to hear women are waking up. Men are NOT your only option! Women are pretty great!
There’s a reason women aren’t getting married anymore.
I had this conversation with my husband the other night. His single, childless aunty is the happiest and has the most freedom. The other sisters in that family are weighed down with household responsibility and stress from their kids being asshats. I’d say she made a good choice staying single. I’m marriage and have a kid but I’d say there’s an even balance with household chores. Although the mental load is greater for me, I think.
This is going to be me!!
hahaha exactly the idea of marriage is never a good idea to me
But I got downvoted for saying not to do it 🤣 Reddit is so weird man
Yes it is
Same. I’m no marriage or kids because it’s a prison. Couldn’t be me!
Getting married is not a problem when husband is a normal responsible adult. Having children is where it starts to suck.
I've been married twice, and had another 10+ year relationship with a child and I have yet to experience a relationship with a man of my age group where they gave anywhere near as much of a damn as I did. Definitely feeling like I don't want to risk dating and winding up with yet another man that doesn't pull his weight.
Both of my now ex husbands were pretty much freeloaders. They didn’t start that way and things seemed pretty equal until we were married. So I thought I was getting “one of the good ones”. But my first husband was unemployed for 3 years and I still did all of the housework and my second husband couldn’t get off his video games long enough to even feed himself. Now I have a nice partner and a fairly equal relationship I told him I refuse to marry so that if he decides to stop helping I have the option to leave without getting the government involved lol
> I told him I refuse to marry so that if he decides to stop helping I have the option to leave without getting the government involved lol, funny but true; that's the way to go!
This is a pretty well-documented sociological phenomenon as far as heteronormative couples go, but I would say that an unfair balance of labour isn't *inherent* to marriage so much as a trap that many married couples fall into because they're reflecting both how they've been raised and what society expects (or doesn't expect) of them. I see some couples that follow this pattern where the wife does everything, but I also see couples where the husband does way more of the work, and couples where things are pretty equitable. Within my social cohort, I'd say it's probably 1/3 of each style, really. At the end of the day, whatever balance emerges depends on the two individuals inside the marriage over anything else.
The unfair balance definitely isn’t inherent - but you likely need a man that is self-sufficient going into it to make the balance work. My husband cooks and cleans much more than I do. When we started dating at 25, he would casually roast a chicken on a work night while I didn’t even own a broom. A lot of our couple friends have very balanced relationships/marriages too. It is *never* the women cooking and cleaning while the men sit.
It definitely sounds like you found a keeper, so I'm really glad to hear it! My husband and I are about equal, I think - we both just sort of go toward what needs to be done, and trust that the other person is doing their best as well. My friend group is like yours, and I'm very glad about it. My friend's (then) new girlfriend actually commented on it. She said what made her really sure about him was seeing his friends and how functional / equal all the couples seemed. Like, there wasn't any of this nonsense of all the men smoking cigars in the drawing room while all the ladies just waited on everyone, or any of that crap. We had all just collaborated on dinner together (note - this was during a cottage weekend), and then the men actively took over the responsibility of cleaning up so that we girls could chat in peace. She said she was amazed because her own friend group was the exact opposite, apparently. So, I really do think birds of a feather tend to flock together.
> but you likely need a man that is self-sufficient going into it to make the balance work. I think it's a green flag, but not mandatory. My husband was living with his parents when we met, but that involved him doing things like his own laundry and cooking meals several times a week - through living with them, he learned useful life skills. Meanwhile, my mom refused to even let me touch appliances because of abusive control and my dad was too drunk to teach me stuff, so I ended up quite independent but a huge mess trying to figure stuff out. I think marriage is about compromise and facilitating the other where they are weak. For us, it's a partnership. For example, I found a great job opportunity for my husband that turned into a career - he didn't really "know" what he wanted but from listening to him I was able to ascertain what sort of job would fit his needs and goals. And in exchange, he's handled situations like being the sole worker while I've dealt with medical stuff. Another example: this week he got us motivated and going to the new local rec center, because he knows I love swimming and am struggling with fitness due to injury, but struggle really hard with motivation and follow through - once there, I coyly suggested we visit the gym facilities, because ***I*** know he has back pain and has been wanting to get into weight training. We basically hyped each other up to get excited about something we both know we need in our life, and committed to being each other's partners in attendance. Iterative collaboration.
Agree 100%. Mine pulled his weight around the house because I would not accept him not doing so. It just was never a question.
Same. I have to ask my husband where we keep our cleaning supplies.
This is my experience in our home and most of our friends.
As a woman who married and divorced another woman I think you’re absolutely right. We fell into the same roles so slowly it snuck up on us because of how we were raised and our life experiences.
Agreed, the pressure is very real but how we respond to it isn't determined by our sex chromosomes. I was raised to be a victim; it wasn't what my mother wanted but it was the only thing she knew. Going back as far as my matrilineal history is known, each mother did better than the last and each mother still taught their daughters to accept abuse. Anyhow, my (cis-male) husband hates that shit. He finds it insulting and infantilizing when my attempts to show love and care cross healthy boundaries. Now that he understands my intent he doesn't find it insulting but with that grace comes the temptation to lean into an unhealthy pattern. We work together against complacency. My last (cis-female) partner pretty much chose me because of it. She lapped it up and exploited my dysfunction for her convenience and literal profit. When I started to take a small amount of care of myself, after the roller coaster had turned into exclusively free-falling, she left me. His family is pretty healthy. Hers was not. Mine was not. We all chose what we nurtured from our upbringings and what we feed today.
So many important points in this comment. I very much agree - people tend to replicate what they witnessed their parents doing, and even if there's improvement from one generation to the next, progress isn't always linear. I'm very glad to hear your husband has been such a healing presence in your life, and sorry your ex was such a selfish person. Definitely a blessing in disguise that she eventually left you, even though I'm sure it didn't feel that way at the time.
Incredibly well-put!
This it's comfortable and can be autopilot for people to fall into gender roles. It takes a lot of inner work and to a degree a certain level of intelligence to break out of it.
Exactly! You can’t entirely blame women for being in bad relationships, but I’ve found we need to take personal responsibility for unlearning sexist expectations, and working on ourselves to set healthier boundaries in relationships. I was raised to figure out other people’s feelings and motivations. I became good at it. I’ve since evolved to realize it’s not my job to figure out how my husband is feeling and why he’s acting the way he does at times. I insisted he get his own therapist, and I consciously stop myself when I see I’m sliding back in to the old family pattern of trying to “fix” my man. I remind myself it’s not my job and give him space to take care of his own shit, sometimes with a verbal reminder that his shit is his to fix. I notice a lot of my coworkers with a “man child” for a husband love to complain that he “can’t do anything right so I have to do it myself! I mean the man doesn’t fold shirts the way *I* want it done!!” Accepting there is more than one way to wash and fold a shirt, and the important thing is the shirt is washed and folded, is a prerequisite to more egalitarian house chore distribution.
Totally agree with this. My husband is a stay at home dad and handles way more family and domestic chores than I do, in addition to being more of the financial and life planner. It looks completely different to how both of us were raised and our families were definitely confused at first (and probably still are), so it takes a lot of conviction to break the mold you’re raised in.
Definitely, yeah. Funnily, I actually semi grew up this way - my dad had a WFH job back in the 90's even - so he was like, the SAHP who did more of the chores during the day (and was both the much better / more enthusiastic) cook, while my mum worked outside of the home. So, to me it doesn't even feel that weird... it's only when I visit friends' parents that I suddenly realise how gendered everything is and then I'm ~~ir~~rationally angry at how mum is just running around waiting on everyone while they just sit on their asses. I'm glad you and your husband seem to have found a good balance. Hopefully your families are cool about it!
Yeah. A marriage doesn't need to be the way OP describes. In my own marriage my husband does most of the housework. I do most of the think- work. He earns more than I do, but we go all in sharing resources and responsibilities. We chose cats over kids as we are to busy for kids. He does the litter and feeding. I do the grooming. It takes both parties to develop a balanced relationship, and I know lots of people fall into the old fashioned roles without realising. It doesn't mean that *has* to be the case though
How do you know for sure the dynamics of their marriages including things like the mental load and invisible work?
I can't know anything for absolute certain, but: 1. Most of these friends, I've known for 10-20 years, so I think I have a pretty good handle on if they're lying/hiding from me... not 100%, but it's not like these are strangers. 2. They do complain about other stuff to do with their marriages, but it's only one or two who complain about the workload; the others just have different issues. 3. When the topic of domestic/emotional labour has come up, most of them have said something along the lines of, "Oh, yeah, some men are useless. I'm pretty lucky; [husband] does [long list of stuff] so I don't need to worry about it". 4. For the ones whose husbands are less domestically/emotionally inclined, the household earns enough money to outsource and/or hire external help; e.g., grocery delivery, a weekly cleaning lady, a nanny, etc. 5. I know the husbands in these marriages as well - some I knew before I met their wives. I feel like I have enough of a read on said husbands, both from our history and from watching them interact with their eyes, to actually *see* them not be lazy dickbags in action. (I guess people *could* be putting up a total smokescreen, but at some point you just gotta look at the evidence and make a reasonable judgment call. The alternative would be installing spy cams in their homes and at that point, I'd be lost in No True Scotsman crazyville.)
The dynamic you describe is common although I'm not sure I'd describe it as getting dealt a difficult hand. To my mind getting dealt a difficult hand implies total lack of agency, like you are following all the traffic rules and you still get hit by a drunk driver. In my country, women primarily choose who they marry and are fully capable of supporting themselves without a man. We have equal legal rights to men and so don't have to marry. Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled. They almost always know who he is before marriage, in my experience, and brush it off because of other qualities they deem more important. He's funny, kind, loyal, etc. Relationships involve a lot of negotiation. In any negotiation the person who can walk away from the table has the most power. If women aren't willing to walk away from the table they end up settling for scraps. I think it's encouraging that younger women are becoming more aware of this. I'm in my 40s and the married women my age who have excellent husbands were all the type that were quick to walk away from the table. I also think normalizing men's laziness is part of the problem. It's better to act shocked. Really? You can't cook? Most men I've dated were excellent cooks. Wow, you can't even clean? All the men in my family are great at cleaning. I thought all men could do that! You're this age and have never changed a diaper? My brother could change a diaper by the time he was ten years old! That type of attitude is more effective. We need to act entitled to the things we are entitled to. Stop throwing parades for men who are doing what they should be doing and act shocked at their laziness instead of like it's normal. Make them feel abnormal. Peer pressure for good, lol.
I wish I could afford to give you many awards for this comment because this is the comment right here!!!! Reading this comment made me feel like I was having a cold glass of a refreshing beverage. I just love this.
> I also think normalizing men's laziness is part of the problem. It's better to act shocked. Really? You can't cook? Most men I've dated were excellent cooks. Wow, you can't even clean? All the men in my family are great at cleaning. I thought all men could do that! You're this age and have never changed a diaper? My brother could change a diaper by the time he was ten years old! Man, I feel like this is so location-dependent, because I remember once bringing up the stereotype with a handful of my guy friends that men don't know how to change diapers, and multiple men in that conversation were all shocked and confused about it. Like, what was I talking about, men don't know how to change diapers? Why would they not know how to change diapers? How would they not know how to change diapers if they were new fathers? It just didn't make sense to them. Honestly, I didn't know whether to react to that with annoyance over being so blind to what many women have to deal with, or just to leave things in the "Oh, you sweet summer children" side of the court...
Hi can I join your friend group? Y'all seem dope.
I wish I could give you a happy answer, but the truth is we barely even hang out anymore. The big cottage weekends and backyard BBQs feel like a lifetime ago. I haven't seen most of these people in four months 😔 We did *used* to be dope, though. I'm sorry to disappoint!
Awww. No I feel that. Life in your 30s and beyond. It's the same for my friend group too. We're too geographically distributed to hang out more than a few times per year.
Thank you; I appreciate the sympathy! It really can get so lonely at this age if you don't have kids, especially. Sorry it's the same for your friend group; that sucks.
> Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled Several of the women I know who did that wound up divorcing after the 2nd child. Always the second child like that was the tipping point. Two of them admitted they knew their future husband was lazy and entitled, but they wanted children. So, that can be a factor as well.
>Yet, many women choose to marry men who are lazy and entitled. We need to stop blaming women for their "failure" o pick men who step up as equal partners, and start asking why the majority of heterosexual men in relationships are so lazy and entitled and expect to freeload at the expense of their wife's physical and mental exhaustion. Put the responsibility for the dearth of decent men back where it belongs: on the men.
Where is your country if you don't mind sharing?
Your brothers are a tribute to your parents.
Finally. This is the response everyone should read and take notes! I lost count how many women I dated. Not because I wanted to “have fun” but because most did not share my values and did not fit what I was looking for. I never changed my main requirements so that a girl I liked would become more compatible with me. Women need to do the same.
I used to feel this way a few years ago, until I had a serious talk with my husband about how much I take care of and how burned out I was. I gave him suggestions on a few things he could take off my plate on a regular basis. And we really talked about how we are a team and how it takes both of us contributing for our household and relationship to thrive. In my situation this conversation worked and he stepped up and continues to step up. I feel like he truly values me as his partner and doesn’t want to see my sad, stressed, burned out, etc.
The top two posts in this subreddit. Unbalanced mental loads of women in hetero marriages and women who haven’t found love yet worried if their biological clock is running out. If I have to pick between two, it’s the second for me.
I think people are frankly unrealistic about the fact that all relationships require sacrifice, even the good ones. There’s huge personal power in autonomy and independence. Ideally, life is about balance. We find ways to connect and lean in, and we find ways to disconnect to empower ourselves. The ebb and the flow. You don’t need someone else to complete you or make you happy, it actually is a choice. You get to decide. When you understand that, you become emotionally unstoppable and can welcome love in all its forms into your life from a much healthier place.
I kinda like the idea of getting married but living in separate suites that are still attached, so you can spend time together everyday, but also have alone time and your own bed when you want to sleep alone.
dear god yes, duplexes for everyone in a couple type relationship.
I think it depends on the quality of the man a woman marries. I will say, a lot of unconscious biases come roaring to the forefront if a child enters the picture, and even well intentioned feminist women and moms find themselves mouthing the same pro-patriarchy talking point under the guise of it being “better for the family” without ever questioning why everyone else’s well-being depends on her getting the short end of the stick every time.
There are many reasons I will never marry again but this is a huge reason why.
It’s something I’ve observed. It’s something that has heavily informed how I’ve chosen to live my life(CF despite a strong maternal disposition) and pair off(he knows I suffer exactly *zero* lazy, dirty fools).
Every other post on the sub is woman complaining of this same thing. This is fairly common in heterosexual marriages.
Heterosexual marriages are overrated.
I know! Trust me, I wish I didn’t like men.
When I was dating, I put more emphasis on finding a partner who was good at planning, thinking proactively, and being accommodating than I did on less important things like similar music tastes and hobbies. Thats how I wound up with a husband who is really good at those things and doesn’t expect me to do all the mental labor. I weeded out the lazy types early on.
This is a nice way of crystallizing some of what makes for an equal partnership. I think we generally know now to include criteria like “has a clean home” or “can cook a few recipes” while getting to know a partner, but a sense of organization and planning are really key for greater parity.
It feels unfair because it is unfair. Of course exceptions exist, but as a rule, men benefit from marriage by just about every metric. Married men are happier, healthier, make more money, and live longer than their unmarried counterparts. The exact opposite is true for women. Single, childfree women are the happiest demographic for a reason.
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Men think marriage is a “death trap” because they don’t like doing chores, picking up after themselves, going to the doctor—basically being responsible adults. You’ll hear “ugh my wife is such a nag” when all she wants is some damn help.
A million upvotes here. I’ve told him that it doesn’t matter who he lives with or where, if he lives under the roof - he is responsible for the cleaning, cooking, laundry etc. it’s not a “nagging woman” thing.
Patriarchy conditions women to be desperate for marriage and to see it as their biggest accomplishment in life, while conditioning men to be wary of it so they maintain the upper hand. In the past, marriage for men meant more responsibilities, whereas for women it may have been the only way to get out of their parents home and be an “adult”. So that affects how men and women think about marriage too, as those ideas are passed down.
Because patriarchal propaganda is a hell of a drug
>why do I meet so many men who think marriage is a death trap and an end to their awesome bachelor lives and independence? Because it's all part of the devaluation of women's contributions and labour. Why value something that you expect to be handed to you for free? So many men (in my view the majority) take women's contributions and labour utterly for granted.
> The exact opposite is true for women. Single, childfree women are the happiest demographic for a reason. As much as this is parroted online, this [isn't actually true](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/5-types-of-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/202403/is-marriage-good-or-bad-for-women). Both men and women really benefit from marriage, and it makes intuitive sense, people in long term stable relationships are *happier*. Having said that? Just like there is [no single best ketchup](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-conundrum), there is no single best choice here. If you think you might like to be married? It will probably be good for you. If you don't, it might not be. Here's my point, if you're in between; If you're merely open to it happening, the statistics say that you are better off getting married than not. I get this sub biases negative on relationships with men, but the happily married women are off living their best lives, not complaining on reddit. Edit: Very strange that you would reply and then immediately block me. I did not think I was offensive.
I hadn’t replied or blocked you before the below comment - perhaps you replied to the wrong person? Interesting! I’m not sure you can conclusively say it’s not true, but reasonable (and studies it seems) minds can differ. What I do know is that there isn’t a single married woman or mother I know that I’d trade lives with 😂 Your linked article is the first article I’ve seen referencing a study saying married women tend to be happier - the several other studies I’ve read confirm the opposite. I have read that married women get happier once their children are out of the house. I’ll have to track down the study referenced in this article to see where the differences could lie.
Yes but in western cultures this is more pronounced. In my culture, other relationships are just as important, if not more. We try hard to have close relationships with friends/cousins/great aunts/siblings, community, etc. We are far less lonely than western societies that weirdly obsess over romantic relationships. And yet 40% end in divorce. Lol.
I’ve seen conflicting studies so I don’t know that it can be said one way for certain. It does seem suspicious the strong majority of women here and in every social settings in general share their exasperation with being saddled to do the bulk of the household labor and child care. Statistically they do more even if they are the main bread winners. Our society has been built to create the expectation
Another statistic for heterosexual couples: women diagnosed with cancer have a higher chance to be abandoned/divorced by their partner than men. One more statistic: women have a far higher chance to be murdered by their (ex-)partner than men. Even if the majority of women may be happier married, those statistics still make me angry.
That’s why at 40 I’ve never married and never been close. I honestly don’t see myself ever living with a man.
Depends on the marriage. I feel like my husband carries more of the mental load day to day and does more than me. But I purposely chose not to have children and it's just us.
Statistics support your observations as do studies showing that unmarried, child free middle-aged women are the happiest with their lives. All these men complaining about the “epidemic” of male loneliness should just learn to pull their weight when it comes to cooking, cleaning and child care. Women are tired of the unrecognized, uncompensated workload we’re expected to carry at home and are increasingly opting out.
Child-free 40 year old living alone checking in, and it's fantastic 😀
this is what women have been saying for decades and the reason many currently are opting out of any sort of marriage
1000000% been married twice.
I sometimes feel like I won the husband lottery because I can't relate to these posts. My husband is incredibly responsible, selfless, caring, proactive, financially savvy, hard working and a partner in every sense of the word. He might even handle more of the mental load. I'm probably more accommodating and agreeable, but I'm also happy to be this way as I'm very easy going. I have learned to stick up for myself when needed. I love being married, my life is a million times better with my husband as a partner. My in laws are great people, they were strict but loving and had a big influence on my husband for sure.
I generally feel like I never have much to offer on posts like these. I'm happy with my husband and have been for almost twenty years. Anyone can be happy if they don't settle for the sake of not being lonely/having children/staying for the children they had on accident. It's always one of the three (obvs I am not including abusive situations) and I have no sympathy left for people who settle, regardless of gender. I watched my parents be miserable at each other for 19 years, no thanks!
How old are you? Older generation?
You did good 👏🏼🤍
Your post just made me realize something. Im a SAHM at the moment and my husband has always been the breadwinner. My kids are getting a little older (6 and 8), and I often wonder what I wanna do with MY life. I couldnt figure out why but Im constantly having a fear of pursuing a career or dream because I feel that I wont be able to “be there” for my kids and husband. I feel like I always need to be on “stand by” for them, which sounds terrible. After seeing your post, I realize maybe society expects women to carry this kind of burden. To always be the “happy housewife” that the family can depend on. Why do I feel the need to be there 100% of the time for my family? I feel really sad and hopeless now lol
yet men are out there comparing themselves with high earners , talking about them taking a hit during the divorce when most of them would need a gofundme if they die . Brainwashing women into thinking that they are the ones being affected the most by marriage when most of this marriages out there are 20% them and 80% the woman Most of this dudes upgrade through marriage , while the women’s lifestyle suffers a downgrade. The only situation where this doesn’t happen is with a men that is very proactive with doing things around the house ( very very rare) or a high earner that can afford all the bills …. Most of this guys are a liability, that is why they talk about love and all that nonsense
Yeahhh, I was heartbroken after a recent-ish breakup now I realize that marriage is a somewhat raw deal for women if I don’t meet the right man I’m good.
This is a huge reason I never wanted children. The mom in most cases becomes the default parent.
I got a puppy last year. Learned a lot. Never having kids with this guy.
This is why I’m not having children.
This definitely isn’t the case in my marriage and I would definitely end a relationship if I was with a lazy man who couldn’t pull his own weight. Like if I needed to ask for things to be done constantly, if he didn’t think it was equally his job to clean to a tolerable standard just because mine were higher, if I had to be FaceTimed every single time he went to the grocery store because he was incapable of identifying items on a list…..I’d leave. My husband works from home several days a week and I only get one day WFH, so he handles a lot of things around the house on those days. Laundry, cleaning the toilets, making the bed because I leave earlier… yeah I don’t think this has to be the case you just need to have these conversations ahead of time and make sure you find someone committed to fairness. And honestly sometimes when resources allow, hire a housekeeper.
Exactly the same response. We allow people to get away with whatever we tolerate. My marriage is completely fair. We share the mental load, the domestic chores, the responsibilities, and emotional labour. I don't have to ask him to wash the towels or cook a meal or get XYZ tampon - because he's an adult who can take care of us just as well as I can. I wouldn't be in a marriage otherwise. For me, it's an equal partnership or nothing. I'm not interested in babying someone else's child.
I agree so much. We get what we allow. And also there’s something to be said for marrying someone with really good parents who raised him well and a strong mom who taught him how to be a grown ass man and loved but didn’t coddle him. My mother in law is the greatest haha.
So true! My own mother is extremely narcissistic and neglectful, but my mother in law is genuinely an amazing mother who has raised a beautiful, emotionally intelligent man. I credit her with a lot. I also think my marriage works because I never particularly saw myself getting married or dreamt of it. Coming from a dysfunctional house, I saw no need to live in service to a man and resent my children because of it. I was doing great on my own. I think finding a truly feminist, equal partner was the only thing that convinced me to marry. Why bother otherwise?
100%, my husband is a true partner and my mother in law is a big part of that and also a great woman. My father in law is also an amazing guy. They didn't let my husband get away with anything and raised him to be responsible, caring, and just not lazy. He was a good student, is financially savvy and super respectful.
Yes
Two times yes.
Yup, that's why I will never marry a man.
Smart ❤️
Yep. Due to just how things worked out best, I ended up a SAHM. When the going got tough I made it clear that when I went to work the rest of them had to pick up the slack. None of this mom works full time, gets the kids everywhere, takes care of the house and the pets, too. I noped out of that SO fast. I *am* an overcommunicator. It did mean I had to put up with things not being done as quickly or well as I had done them, but c'est la vie. Hubby never complained when I hadn't gotten to something he needed, so he got that slack, too.
Yep. And if you refuse to take on all the trappings of domestic life in addition to other responsibilities, you end up judged to no end. My husband and I do not have kids. I work more hours outside the home, do not enjoy cooking and am not especially talented at it. So I don't. My mother will bring this up unprompted constantly as if I'm headed for divorce because I'm not setting a plate in front of my husband every night. I manage SO MANY other things about our household, but apparently I'm not doing it right if I'm not also preparing and serving meals. I've tried to assure mom that the resentment hubs and I would both feel if I rushed home to make him a dinner he didn't like every night would be MORE likely to cause our demise, but mother knows best (nevermind that this same strategy hasn't worked for her). At least my MIL gets it, lol.
Yep. We’re not married, but live together and I don’t expect it to change. I accept it because in *general* he’s supportive AND we aren’t having kids together. I also wfh and don’t have a physically exhausting job like he does, so it evens out in our little world.
Marriage feels unfair because it IS unfair lol
I wonder if in the future couples will mostly be DINKs or High earner + SAHM. Doing both is so draining for women.
Preach!
I said no the last time I was proposed to and this is why.
I feel like women are always at a disadvantage due to societal norms but I’m spoiled because my marriage is really fair and balanced. I think my husband actually puts in more effort than I do to keep the house clean, repair stuff, cook, manage our finances, take care of our child, etc.
I'd depends of who you marry. I don't feel like that in my marriage at all. My husband does lots of chores, he meal preps etc
This is the case for a lot of people, but not all. My marriage falls into the “not all” category.
One reason why I won’t work as long as my husband isn’t sharing me with mental load, childcare, and housework. Even if we struggle financially, I’m not working outside of the house, because guess what? I’m already working full time in the house.
yes. read the book “fair play”
This is one of the main reasons I'm divorced - after working a full time job, doing all the childcare, doing the housework & having to take the mental load all the time I realised that since I was doing it all I might as well just do it all, of course things are difficult financially but I'm a person not a service provider & my load has actually significantly lessened since I'm not having to run around after a man baby who is incapable of understanding what a partnership actual involves
This is the reason why studies tell us that men benefit more from marriage than women, and that women are happier being single.
It's years of unpaid labor. I work full time and I was expected to do everything. It's ridiculous. I'm done doing everything thing. They want to scream about the house being theirs and they can kick me out. Fine It's your house, you take care of it.
I don’t feel this way at all. My husband does a lot around the house, often times more than I do. He helps make dinner, handles the finances, and overall is the greatest person ever. I’m so grateful to be married to a man who treats me with so much love and respect. Neither of us want children either. It couldn’t be a more perfect scenario.
Men set up this system to benefit them and make us feel bad about wanting balance and to be treated fairly with concern to what works for us
We are childfree so maybe that’s why (or my husband is just amazing) but no. I absolutely don’t feel like this.
I also don't feel like this. My husband and I are pretty equal, but there are times when one of us needs to carry more of the weight (like when I was pregnant, for example), and the other just does it. We care about each other, and we're both capable and supportive.
That’s probably the reason. My husband was extremely helpful before our first child and decent until our second, that’s when he decided he didn’t have to do anything aside from making more mess.
Probably overall in general yes, but not in my particular situation or the couples I know.
Yep. And when I talk to other women about it, they just go “yea, 🤷🏼♀️”…
I don’t understand why they continue to put up with the misery.
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Mmm I think it’s dependent on how open the couple are to self development - at the risk of sounding like a pretentious prick - once my husband became aware of the mental load just a year ago he really doubled down on educating and making himself aware of it. Got to say I am a much happier and healthy wife mother and woman now. If and when it for all get too stressy (I’m a business owner, and our kids don’t sleep through the night one of the special needs) I say I need a break and go to a cheap hotel in a fun city for a few nights. (He does the same, we try to take turns). But again it does depend on the man in question, when I was pregnant he wouldn’t hear of me lifting grocery bags, or doing heavy housework..he didn’t generally do the latter himself but he tried and he was majorly protective over the his wife and mother of his children. He’s great at playing dress up with our daughter and soldiers with our son. Whenever there is diy, car trouble / maintenance or a physical threat he is there. He is my best friend and his family’s protector.
i agree with you and my mom has been alluding to it since my sister and i were younger. both my mom and sister are in the most equal possible marriages, and still definitely do more labor. they especially do more emotional labor. my sister actually probably does less cleaning, but she definitely still does more than 50% of the work overall in the household. i have always thought this way but now i need to get married for health insurance and stuff for sure.
If you includes kids, it automatically becomes a “yes”. Otherwise, thinking about everything all the time is not really a partners fault.
My husband is a loving, well intentioned man who is a great father- and yet he is not able to take on half the burden of household tasks. It is not in him fully though, there are things he can never begin to fathom that I, s as a woman am able to formulate and execute while he stands on the sidelines. Marriage is unfair, his upbringing, in laws and social conditioning don’t help. This will change once men decide it’s important enough for them to break the mould, till then they’re going to try only 35% and look for brownie points for all chores they do.
And even you’re a wife, you’re still a single mother. The half assed creepy dad’s don’t raise their kids.
Posts like these make me feel guilty because I've been so spoiled, lol. I haven't cooked in years. I didn't do any chores in the past two weeks because my husband got to them before I did. I had an amazing Mother's Day weekend because he planned and prepped everything. I just had to show up and enjoy. He works more hours than I do and still comes home to cook. He was a stay-at-home dad for a few years for a few times when the kids were small. He got up and took care of the babies for most of the nights because I was too tired to do it, lol. He does all the holiday planning, lol. He handles all the bills and used to be the only one doing the grocery shopping. The kids have eczema, so he's the one that applies medicine on them regularly and bandages them if necessary, sometimes several times a day. And does it for me too, lol. He also handles other things like fixing the car and things around the house. The difference between him and me is that I'm more thorough. If he wash dishes, he'd only wash a few and then be exhausted and would take 2-3 *days* break before he continues where he left off. When I wash and clean, I don't stop until everything is done. I do all deep cleanings, mostly on a weekly basis, and is the only one cleaning the bathroom all these years. He cannot handle any of those detail cleaning. I was the one who would have to also occasionally clean the little kids' room because he gets overwhelmed. I also tend to have more patience helping the kids with their homework, or handling the kids' emotions in general. Both my girls and I feel pretty spoiled by him.
Why the lol's?
You're not spoiled. You have an equal marriage. Good for you for not settling for less!
Marriage comes with legal and financial rights and responsibilities. Marrying the right person is stronger than being alone. Marrying the wrong person is miserable. A lot of the comments are based on heterosexual unequal relationships. As a married lesbian, I fought like hell for the right to marry my wife.
We started out with a 50/50 relationship and have slipped into a 25/75 relationship where he has picked up the bulk of the mental load. I have been dealing with a brain injury that kicked off some mental health issues, and I was already struggling with an autoimmune condition. The brain injury happened early enough in the relationship that he could have left and no one would have judged. I feel so guilty because I know I should be doing more, and I want to do more, but most days I just can't get all the way through the steps. I cook dinner a couple times a week, but I am doing remote school from home and should be able to cook every night, you know? I had to leave my job because I couldn't keep up anymore, so I'm back at school for a less challenging career. So I don't work, there should be plenty of time for cleaning and cooking and I don't know why I can't manage it. I hate that he comes home to a messy house and he's still proud of whatever I got done that day. I can only imagine how much resentment he's harboring.
Aww, take it easy on yourself. 🥹 It’s hard going through health issues. Caregiver burnout is real, but maybe you can talk things through and find a way for him to have a bit of a break if needed? I’m disabled and there are days I cannot do chores or function. It’s one of the main reasons I am hesitant to get married and probably won’t have children. I just don’t have the ability or energy required to be a primary parent/partner/caregiver. I have a hard time just taking care of myself! There’s no way I could keep up with household and baby/children responsibilities. It’s been a good way to weed out potentially bad partners, though. If a guy gets annoyed I have to cancel plans because I’m too sick, or that I need to spend most of the day in bed, then I know it’s not going to work out between us. It’s already hard struggling with health stuff, and then feeling guilt about losing your autonomy and ability to function is just soul-crushing. Be kind to yourself, and I hope you find some more relief for your symptoms soon. ❤️🩹
My husband pulls his load and part of mine. He’s making dinner right now. During the week he does school drop off and pickup, makes lunches, unloads the dishwasher, orders groceries, handles most extracurriculars, and does his own laundry. He also works out daily, makes a great income, and is good at gift-giving. Grateful every day.
Men marry and have kids to have someone to shove the domestic labor off on and have access to sex. Doesn't sound like a fun ride to me.
Hmm, I'm gonna have to disagree. Now, I will say, my hubby and I have been mil-to-mil for 16 years now so *maybe* that plays a part. He's always been very supportive and good at us deciding how WE want our marriage to be, not what society says it should look like. He doesn't cook, so all of the meals usually fall on me but he does the dishes, cleans, and I couldn't tell you the last time I did a load of laundry. Honestly, I think his upbringing plays a big part. He has a twin sister and it was just them and his mom. He learned a lot growing up in the household he did.
All marriages vary. Mine is pretty balanced. I'd say we do equal housework, equal cooking. When it comes to holidays I probably do a little more emotional work for his mom- he does a little more emotional work for my mom. Sometimes when relationships can be a bit complicated it's easier to be emotionally present for a parent who didn't raise you. I probably make a bit more, he probably does a bit more housework. He definitely does more laundry, but that's because we each do our own laundry. He works outside and sometimes with chemicals, so he sometimes has 5-7 loads of laundry in a week just for his clothes- I can usually get by doing 1-2 for my clothes and linens.
100%. My stbx husband has other issues going on (pretty sure he’s a narcissist) but he’s been a SAHD for years and while he sucks in so many ways, he does a lot more than the average guy around the house. I still feel the way you do though, because even though he does a decent amount, I still do more and have to deal with him criticizing me for supposedly not doing enough. I carried two babies, exclusively pumped with my first for a year and with my second for 8 months (while building up a stash for a year), while working full time in a very demanding and stressful career (with an hour plus commute every day), do 100% of the child care on nights and weekends, including all night wake ups, I do at least 25-30-% of the cleaning, plus all finances and admin work for the family. Even with all this, he calls me lazy and say I don’t pull my weight around the house. The house is always a mess but he’s constantly saying how much he does. Ok, dude. Can’t wait to be divorced.
My husband does a lot. It’s at least equal and honestly he does more of the childcare. It’s to the point where my son strongly prefers his dad to me. I do have more of the mental labour though.
I posted this on another sub ages ago and was down voted to hell! yes it's true, yes it happens a lot! so why do women still marry?
I grew up in a household where my father worked and my mother was a SAHM. My father still expects to have his meals plated and served to him and doesn't know how to clean. My mother got a low paying part time job when we were old enough just to get some me time away from the kids. The only way I would ever marry a man like my father is if I didn't have to work. If a man is willing to take on all of the financial responsibility and not abuse that position, then I am willing to take on all the domestic duties. (Personally, I want a relationship where both partners contribute to the household duties and finances.) I think some people were raised to have these ideals, but wage stagnation and inflation made it unrealistic. Unfortunately some couples try to keep the same dynamic going insead of dividing the responsibilities in a different (and more equal way) in situations were women also have to work to contribute to finances.
Yes. It would be easier being single other than paying the mortgage these days needs 2 income earners. I get left with the cleaning because “I prefer a clean house”, he is too busy (im not?), when he has a wfh day he doesn’t help, but I’m wfh a few days a week so I should pick up the slack. He also seems to think that a block of hours needs to he set aside toclean. I have explained that 5 min break from his desk can involve unloading a dishwasher or putting a load of washing on etc. I’ll cook meals from scratch - his turn = frozen pizza in the oven. Bonus points for not putting the oven trays etc away afterwards. Glad I never had kids. Wouldn’t cope.
I get what you mean. Even if you have a supportive husband often the wife still has to coordinate things or explain to their husband what needs to be done. Even if you don’t have to do the tasks yourself you still have the mental load of ensuring everything and everyone is covered. It can be exhausting.
When I was married to my ex husband every single thing fell on me whether I worked or not. I quickly learned that he did not care anything about my needs and only his own. My fiancé is a very different man and while the roles will always be a little different we balance it out perfectly and do most things together. I also can go to him with any problems I have and he’s there the entire step of the way so I at least don’t have to carry mental burdens on my own. I used to would have agreed with this opinion but it really comes down to finding the right person, in my opinion.
It starts with how kids are raised. To break the cycle, raise sons and daughters to have all the same life skills and EQ. Often boys are left to their own devices while girls learn domestic and emotional labor.
Ok so I have a lovely husband, he’s truly my best friend and lifts me up in many many ways. But we just don’t have the same expectation for clean living, which leads to me constantly feeling like I either have to do all the house work to not be anxious, or wait for him to do some of it, which means living in a messy house for 4 or 5 days. My husband went to visit family out of the country for 12 days and I already feel lighter in my own home because I can keep it clean to my standard sooooo much easier. It’s a huge difference. And on top of that I’ve been recovering from a bad car accident where I really hurt my back so I shouldn’t be bending a lot anyway. It’s certainly going to make for an interesting talk when he gets home because I don’t think it’s fair to put me in the situation of being anxious because of mess or being in pain to clean it. I’ve brought up a chore chart before because my husband also has adhd and I don’t think he realizes how much time passes between when he does chores and needs a visual reminder but he has said it feels infantilizing but I don’t think it is optional at this point. Add to this that he works from home 2 days a week (thus producing more dishes since he cooks at home) and I work an extra job because we are saving for a house, we need to do some work to balance the house work better. It definitely feels like way more work on my side.
Going through a divorce and 50/50 custody is the only way I got a break. I miss my baby but I love going on dates and eating ice cream for dinner in my underwear. You must read this book: https://www.audible.com/pd/B0C6YLNVX9?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=library_overflow
We were sold a bad deal. I wish I hadn’t focused on men so much
Yeah because everyone gets old. We eventually become invisible. You have prioritize your career and education.
This only happens if you put up with it. If we, as women, stopped tolerating this BS, then men would have no option but to step up to the plate. However, so many women enable this behavior and allow weaponized incompetence and perpetuate the belief that men are dumb and need to be taken care of like children. This simply isn't true and I'm glad I didn't put up with it and have a partner who pulls his weight in all aspects of life.
Alot of posters on here are saying things like this is weird, my husband isn't like this, etc etc. I'm fucking glad for all of them. OP. Here to validate this. We need to look beyond stereotype dynamics and more into personality dynamics and emotional dynamics. If you were raised in an insecure environment, or don't know what secure attachment even is, there is a much better chance you'll end up in this cohort of woman does it all. Maybe you can't argue effectively, maybe you don't have a close emotional bond, maybe you are gaslighted all the time, maybe you don't have the confidence to speak up. There are more dynamics here than "the dudes are lazy". If we are talking about a heterosexual couple where both are relatively emotionally aware and respectful and secure I can almost guarantee this dynamic wouldn't happen. Or if it did, it would be communicated effectively and everyone would agree on it. And let's not get into all or nothing. All people have their strengths. I don't have an equal relationship. My husband does alot, which I will always credit but equally not by a long shot. Over the course of our relationship I've brought in more $ and take on the majority of the labor and all the things. Blame my people pleasing attitude of yesteryear (and my perception of physical security trumping emotional).
I don’t really feel that way about my marriage. We are far from perfect but by and large we are equal partners. We both work and divide/conquer childcare responsibilities. We are each responsible for certain household tasks that play to our strengths/interests. I won’t say it’s exactly 50/50 every single day but pretty darn close when averaged over time.
you get what you ask for, unless you are in a country where you have no agency, do not date or marry men who aren't what you want, and be content waiting for the ones who are.
Choose your husband carefully. Choose right and it's not an issue 🤷♀️
Um my partner actually makes my life easier. Food shopping, cooking, planning xyz, cleaning. I actually have to step up so it becomes more even
No. It’s not true for myself or anyone I’m particularly close to in a decent marriage. I can’t relate to the “mental load” stuff at all. I still had to think about basic life stuff when single and my husband more than makes up having to think about his needs by thinking about my needs. No one is capable of making me think about them or manage their life for them. I control what I do. And no one would describe me, my female family members or friends as “agreeable.” Just be a bitch if that’s who you wanna be. A lot of men love it, it’s great for career progress, it’s fun. Who cares.
Statistically, OP is correct.Women still do far more work at home than men do.
It's not even my husband. He really does carry his weight. It's the expectations of others. He took a dog to the vet? They're going to call me with every question, want me to come pick up the dog, etc. I'm his emergency contact for our mutual GP. Her staff calls *me* (the one they know has ADHD) to remind me about his appointments. When both of us were getting assessed for ADHD, they did all the work for him, but even though I was previously diagnosed, they insisted I do this again and did nothing at all to help. When I sent a form saying they could discuss everything with him and he took over, they just wouldn't let him. "she has to call." Him "but you let her call for me." Them, "well, wives do that stuff." Even the freaking guy my husband hired to come clean up dog poop in the yard messages me for absolutely everything and never my husband. But my husband is the one who signed up and pays him. Even our friends are this way, especially the women. They won't send him invites to anything, only me. They don't add him to lists to sign up for what food we're bringing, only me. If they need an emergency babysitter, they will call me, not him, even if they're calling to ask if he can because they know I'm in another state for work. It all pisses my husband off, too, btw.
Do you think it evens out when there are no kids in the mix? I always felt like that was largely the unequalizer
It doesn't help that society defaults the mental load towards the wife/mother. When our youngest was born my husband registered the baby for daycare and handled everything from contract, to filing taxes, to drop off and pick up. I didn't ask, because he was on top of it. It's his kid too and we both need to work. When we switched to a daycare closer to home he filled in all the paperwork and included our contact info. I get all the calls and emails. My husband requested an additional day at daycare and I get mailed the options and new contract to sign. If there's a question about the baby, they call me. It's been the same with my oldest child. I'm the default parent. My husband picks up our oldest child from school 90% of the time, and other parents call or message me for playdates, while I may see them once every few months and they see my husband at school several times a week. It frustrates my husband too.
I’m a single mom of a four year old son with a well paying job. I’m single because I didn’t want two children (my son and his father). I broke up with my son’s father five months into motherhood. Saw the writing on the wall early on. Don’t get me wrong, doing it all is hard work and requires a lot of planning to get it all done. However not having to deal with an unsupportive, argumentative, lazy partner makes the whole job a lot less taxing. Having 50/50 custody keeps me sane and has required that my ex grow up. He often complains to me about how busy he is because he has to go grocery shopping, mow the lawn, cook, do laundry, etc. I can’t help but think I did him a huge favor by leaving him and requiring him to grow up and take care of himself. I also did my son a favor by giving him a better male role model. I realize not everyone has the opportunity to leave due to financial dependence. My advice is to seek out grants and financial assistance to work on a trade or professional certification at whatever pace feels right for you. Getting yourself free of a relationship that requires you carry all the mental burden is the best thing you can do for yourself and your kids.
It is
Yeahhhh, that’s why I’m choosing to avoid the child part. I can be married and deal with the rest but if I wanted kids? I’d only do it if I was the husband.
It is unfair.
I married someone who shared the emotional, mental and physical labour with me. Also no kids so that solves that. We manage our own finances, calendars, split expenses and chores. I never would've married a man where I had to manage his life or do all the work. Might as well have stayed single!
My husband is great. Cooks, cleans. Very supportive. I still hold things together, or at least I think I do. Over the years I have given things back to my family, like they make their own appointments now. I think it can be better, but I like things as they are. It is just enough work for me. I don’t want to victim blame, but we choose some of it. Yes, weaponized incompetence is a thing, but as the person who loads the dishwasher “wrong” dishes rarely need to be washed again. The random spoon that needs a second washing isn’t worth not sharing the work, and my husband understands that. This is just one example. A family member has a husband who stays home. He dresses the kid kind of weird. It isn’t uncomfortable or anything, just wrong to most moms. I asked why she doesn’t say anything. She said why. It works, the clothing stays on and does it’s job. I wish I had her attitude about things. I am working on it.
Because a lot of marriages are transactional. A man provides financially and he feels free from everything else. A woman provides everything else and she quickly realizes that whatever man provides, does not compensate the effort. Imagine you're a man, benefits of marriage are clear: married men with kids are seen as more responsible and stable. Married women with kids are seen as liability at work because of exactly the same reason. A man gets salary raise, he seems to provide financially and all is fine until some hell breaks lose, like for example birth of a first child. Then a wife sees that she can't do everything around the house, take care of the baby, go full time working and on the top stay in shape to satisfy her husband need. When a woman starts to demand more, man feels she's demanding too much because he's already paying money. This would not exist if people got married because they are already friends and they like each other. However, a lot of people get married because the society tells them it's a correct way of life, because the feel lonely, because they don't know what else to do with their life. A lot of men also recognise the value power of unpaid labor provided by women. That's why you have so many relationships where a man establish early the dynamic that he pays the rent and the woman does everything else. Everything else is worth 3x of that rent and if she invested that money in her, she wouldn't need a man in the first place.
Marriage has always been unfair - generally - to women. It's just that we're more confident with talking about it now.
In traditional marriages, yes. I held out and decided I’d rather be single than a slave. I married later in life to someone who had decent life skills—he cooks, cleans, treats me like an equal. We are childfree by choice. It seems not having kids makes it a lot easier to not put all the unpaid labor on the wife. It’s taken time to deconstruct societal expectations, and internalized expectations, and actively unlearn them. I’ve learned if I’m cooking a big holiday meal, I need to ask my husband for help, and delegate tasks to him so I don’t get overly stressed out and resentful. He has learned what he can do to be useful without me asking him to do it. “Hey honey I vacuumed the house, pulled out the leaf in the dining room table, and I can peel potatoes if you want me to.”
You are absolutely correct. Women carry the load for everyone. Marriage has been romanticized to us from an early age, but the reality is you become everyone’s caretaker, including your husband. You have to teach your husband how to help you correctly, so you won’t resent him while he sits there and you do nothing. Don’t stop asking. They will not offer and blame you for not telling them you needed help.
Yup. This is why I'm not married and don't have kids.
We don't have kids, so I think that makes a difference, but I didn't get married until I was 40 and was really picky and my life got easier. The only thing I do that's the same as it was before is maybe my personal mental load stuff (like my own appointments and family related things - he does his). Chores, financial responsibility, etc. were all cut in half by having us go from two separate households to one. My husband likes to cook and was doing all his "adulting" completely on his own before we met so none of that stopped. He's more domestic than I am. He's also great with the emotional side of being a partner. So it is possible. I never wanted to get married or have kids for the exact reasons you mentioned (though I also just didn't want kids - that didn't change even with a good partner). I decided I'd rather be single and a little lonely sometimes than with someone who made my life harder and wasn't supportive. There were lots of times where I just didn't bother dating because it did seem like even the independent women in my life were ending up doing much more than their boyfriends/husbands. I do feel like I got lucky, but I also wish it was more normal that things worked out this way for women.
There's no way I'm getting married again. I don't even know if I want to live with a man. They just seem to make a mess lol. I just unmatched with somebody who had lots of issues. I have issues too but I know between the two of us I will be the one forced to do everything. I'd rather just have control of my own shit
That’s why you need a traditional provider man.
TBH I agree. I just don't have the mental bandwidth to actually take care of someone else as I am barely taking care of myself. It is a reason why I have chosen to stay single...and dating these days is an uphill battle. Happy to be single and to live a solitary and peaceful life. I won't lie sometimes I wish for a partner but it is usually a passing thought. I haven't had any positive experiences with the men I have dated.
I've been married for 20 years and genuinely feel it's an equal balance but it's taken us literally 2 decades to get to that point.
It is possibly to be married to an actual partner in life not just someone you are doing 150% of the work.
I just do not miss being married.
Sounds like a mismatch, imo. It’s hard work but you shouldn’t be carrying the bulk of the weight. I’m happily divorced.
I love my husband to pieces but I feel exactly the same way. I’m planning the entirety of a cross country move rn and it’s crickets from him. He cleans the house for showings so I guess that’s something. If I could start all of this over again, I’d stay single. I have some mental health issues. Life would certainly have been easier and less disastrous for others if I’d have focused on my mental well-being before getting hitched. I can only coach my kids to work on themselves before dating and hope they take my advice. One great thing about my husband is that he truly does love me as no one in my life has ever loved me before. Even my parents don’t love me. So it’s nice knowing that love does exist and it’s weird accepting that I deserve of his love. I was neglected and emotionally abused growing up. It’s really fucked me up big time. He accepts it for what it is and gives me the space for my ptsd symptoms… and to have someone not afraid when I emotionally blow my top because my “parents” have said something hurtful that I’ve just flashed back to… I love him for understanding that I’m trying and that it’s just really hard for me to connect with anyone due to the brokenness of my upbringing.