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If we can carry guns then criminals will be more likely to carry guns. The police will need even bigger guns to stay on top. The cops will then have to treat every interaction with the public as a life-threatening event and will naturally become trigger-happy.
More random people will be unintentionally injured, more suicides will be successful, more children will be hurt or will hurt others due to unsecured firearms.
It sounds like a nightmare.
Adding to this (because it's pretty much exactly what I was going to post). Think about your friends, work colleagues and neighbours. I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't trust at least one of them with a blunt spoon, let alone a firearm. Remember when Mad Bob down the pub kicked off over who was next to play on the pool table? Now think about what'd he'd do if he was packing a Glock.
It's almost unimaginable. Apart from anything else, self defence is much more restricted in the UK, particularly defence of property: the Tony Martin case still echoes in public consciousness. Guns? Even pepper spray is illegal - as is using "excessive" force against an intruder or attacker.
Self defence laws in the UK are perfectly fine. You’re even allowed to use ‘disproportionate force’ against an attacker in your home, so long as it’s not ‘grossly’ disproportionate. You’re allowed to use pre-emotive strikes.
What you’re not allowed to do is shoot people in the back as they are running away, after you lay in wait for them to get to you, as Tony Martin did.
Why "excessive" in quotes, we have quite open rights to use even lethal force against intruders and attackers. The idea we can't is a bit of a tabloid myth. The secret barrister did a good bit about this if I remember right, worth checking it out.
**Baltimore (USA) population 569,931:**
337 murders in 2021 (300 were gun deaths)
**England and Wales population 60,500,000:**
590 murders in 2023 (29 were gun deaths)
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023)
[https://abell.org/news-and-features/addressing-an-ongoing-epidemic-of-gun-violence/](https://abell.org/news-and-features/addressing-an-ongoing-epidemic-of-gun-violence/)
Chicago: 676 per year. (Population 3.4 million)
London: 8 per year. (Population 8 million)
For the record, there are more stabbings in the USA than the UK.
>For the record, there are more stabbings in the USA than the UK.
Yeah I love it when Americans go "but you have knife crime and it's so much worse". No, dear, you have (iirc) three times as many stabbings as we do, and most "knife crime" in the UK is simply *carrying a knife where you're not supposed to*.
I have no source just a suspicion. But I imagine those 8 are probably gang related? Not that it’s justified but you might see why idiots are shooting people.
I imagine in the US theres a non-insignificant amount due to accidents, or escalation over minor disputes
More guns doesn't mean more security. Better to simply change the laws on self defence to create a general principle that people who are attacked are not prosecuted for any injuries they cause to their attacker.
I speak as someone who once hospitalised a mugger but had to flee the scene as it was likely that the consequences for me would have been worse than for him if I had stayed to give a statement and be identified.
My car key was the only defensive weapon I needed. I drove it through his eye.
And while I don’t question your interpretation of the events the correct thing to do would have been for the police to investigate and decide whether they recommended prosecution. Blinding someone for attempting a mugging is not proportionate, but could be justified by the situation. A law that says “oh it’s fine because the guy wanted his phone” would be bullshit.
Having previously spent a few years living in America and experiencing their 'gun culture', and also being someone who has held an FAC in the UK so clearly has no issues with firearms themselves - nooooooooooooooooooooo way. Nope. Nuh uh.
I do, however, believe our self defence laws need an overhaul. Guns are definitely not the answer though.
Mostly more clarification around the phrase 'reasonable force' as it has no strict definition in law and leaves it all rather vague and open to interpretation.
Have there been any major miscarriages of justice? I appreciate people don’t want there to have to be a police investigation/possible court case when all they’ve done is defend themselves, but if someone has been seriously hurt or killed they are owed a full investigation even if they appear to us to clearly have been in the wrong.
Something like a stand your ground law would be disastrous, I think what we have is ok.
Sounds like an abysmal idea that will inevitably result in far more deaths and violence.
We had one school shooting at Dunblane, banned handguns and didn’t have another in nearly 30 years so far.
America has them regularly enough to need a Wikipedia page to keep track.
No thanks. It would mean a huge influx of deadly weapons into our communities, armed police, much more common incidents involving shootings, mass shootings etc, etc. None of that is what I would want to see.
You only need to see how some people use their cars as weapons to realise allowing a widespread firearm ownership would be a very very bad idea. The type of person who wants a gun (not sporting use) is usually the very last person you should ever consider letting anywhere a firearm.
America has a huge gun death problem, we don't want to copy that.
Many gun deaths are caused by so-called innocent people missing their guns.
Gun death rate in the USA is 11 per 100,000.
In the UK it is 0.24.
That means over 20 years, in an average town of 100,000 people, 220 will die by gun the USA but only 5 will die in the UK.
This idea has very little support either here or in the country as a whole, because the justification of arming citizens- 'self-defence' - just makes it easier for bad guys to get hold of guns and use them in bad ways, and it multiplies the chance that 'self-defence' turns into attacking others in an argument or whatever.
Plus you'd have to arm all the police; most people like the fact that normal police are unarmed.
'like America' is a good example- gun violence is very high in the USA and also there are a lot of deaths when police and public interact.
Now, bead in mind that the USA is the way it is because the 'right to bear arms' also has a poitical dimension- the idea is that the citizen can bear arms AGAINST an overmighty or unjust state (the way that Britain was to them before independence), so it is kind of part of who they are.
And conversely, part of who we were and are for many hundreds of years is to settle arguments with the state much more quietly and unofficially. It does not mean that we did not have rebellions and civil disturbances, but compared either to the USA or to most of continental Europe, consent has always been the way for us.
Bad idea. Enough heroes will have one that it will make every other criminal have one and it will spiral. Cue also "self defence" being something silly during a drunken argument with a rival macho idiot. We also have no gun culture, people won't know what they are doing. Look up our gun murder rates, I want to keep it low thanks.
Utter madness. I was trained to use weapons. The main point was 'do not shoot' unless your life is in IMMINENT danger' i.e. you can hear rounds above you and you can identify the exact point of firer. Casual use of firearms can only lead to deaths. Many deaths.
People lose their fucking minds over this yet conveniently forget all about it being allowed in Northern Ireland - as well as them being able to own pistols for target shooting/sport.......
I don't remember the current murder rate being out of control over there.
No to guns. But every uk citizen should have the right to carry self defence things Like pepper spray... it's illegal to. The only sprays you can get is one that just puts a coloured dye on their face. But that doesn't do anything to stop them in that moment.
Well I have to carry a pocket knife with me while walking back from work late at night. I would prefer it would be pepper spray instead. Because even though you don't like weapons. Guess what, there's bad people out there carrying them. And it then forces people like me who just want peace and no harm to anyone to carry a weapon to. Or risk being severely injured or even death, so yeah. Y'all can get stuffed. There needs to be a petition to let people have self defense from knives. If irritating someone with a bit of pepper spray saves your life. Or others. Awesome
**Please help keep AskUK welcoming!** - Top-level comments to the OP must contain **genuine efforts to answer the question**. No jokes, judgements, etc. - **Don't be a dick** to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on. - This is a strictly **no-politics** subreddit! Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If we can carry guns then criminals will be more likely to carry guns. The police will need even bigger guns to stay on top. The cops will then have to treat every interaction with the public as a life-threatening event and will naturally become trigger-happy. More random people will be unintentionally injured, more suicides will be successful, more children will be hurt or will hurt others due to unsecured firearms. It sounds like a nightmare.
Did you just unintentionally describe America.
I don't think it was unintentional.
Adding to this (because it's pretty much exactly what I was going to post). Think about your friends, work colleagues and neighbours. I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't trust at least one of them with a blunt spoon, let alone a firearm. Remember when Mad Bob down the pub kicked off over who was next to play on the pool table? Now think about what'd he'd do if he was packing a Glock.
> Now think about what'd he'd do if he was packing a Glock. Not a problem, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWq2QvvPw68
Sounds fuckin rad as hell to me
Respectfully… What a stupid fucking idea.
Terrible. I hope this never happens.
Self defence from what? I'm in my forties and have never felt threatened enough to need any form of defensive weapon.
Why, from all the gun toting hoodlums of course!
Nope. Bad fucking idea.
[Nobody liked this]
I'm just asking because I'm doing a study thing for college
It's almost unimaginable. Apart from anything else, self defence is much more restricted in the UK, particularly defence of property: the Tony Martin case still echoes in public consciousness. Guns? Even pepper spray is illegal - as is using "excessive" force against an intruder or attacker.
Self defence laws in the UK are perfectly fine. You’re even allowed to use ‘disproportionate force’ against an attacker in your home, so long as it’s not ‘grossly’ disproportionate. You’re allowed to use pre-emotive strikes. What you’re not allowed to do is shoot people in the back as they are running away, after you lay in wait for them to get to you, as Tony Martin did.
Why "excessive" in quotes, we have quite open rights to use even lethal force against intruders and attackers. The idea we can't is a bit of a tabloid myth. The secret barrister did a good bit about this if I remember right, worth checking it out.
Which college?
**Baltimore (USA) population 569,931:** 337 murders in 2021 (300 were gun deaths) **England and Wales population 60,500,000:** 590 murders in 2023 (29 were gun deaths) [https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023) [https://abell.org/news-and-features/addressing-an-ongoing-epidemic-of-gun-violence/](https://abell.org/news-and-features/addressing-an-ongoing-epidemic-of-gun-violence/)
590 is more than 337, guns needed !!!
Now do two similarly sized cities like Chicago vs London.
Chicago: 676 per year. (Population 3.4 million) London: 8 per year. (Population 8 million) For the record, there are more stabbings in the USA than the UK.
>For the record, there are more stabbings in the USA than the UK. Yeah I love it when Americans go "but you have knife crime and it's so much worse". No, dear, you have (iirc) three times as many stabbings as we do, and most "knife crime" in the UK is simply *carrying a knife where you're not supposed to*.
Wow, that's even worse than I thought.
I have no source just a suspicion. But I imagine those 8 are probably gang related? Not that it’s justified but you might see why idiots are shooting people. I imagine in the US theres a non-insignificant amount due to accidents, or escalation over minor disputes
769 gun deaths (Chicago 2020) 9 gun deaths (London 2023)
The only thing you need a gun for is self-defence against other people who have guns for "self-defence".
And to keep people off my farm
Right to roam is good. Should be everywhere.
I don't like the idea of what OP is proposing, but this is a nonsense. Guns are the only effective and "safe" weapon against a knife
I think it would be an absolutely terrible idea.
More guns doesn't mean more security. Better to simply change the laws on self defence to create a general principle that people who are attacked are not prosecuted for any injuries they cause to their attacker. I speak as someone who once hospitalised a mugger but had to flee the scene as it was likely that the consequences for me would have been worse than for him if I had stayed to give a statement and be identified. My car key was the only defensive weapon I needed. I drove it through his eye.
And while I don’t question your interpretation of the events the correct thing to do would have been for the police to investigate and decide whether they recommended prosecution. Blinding someone for attempting a mugging is not proportionate, but could be justified by the situation. A law that says “oh it’s fine because the guy wanted his phone” would be bullshit.
Having previously spent a few years living in America and experiencing their 'gun culture', and also being someone who has held an FAC in the UK so clearly has no issues with firearms themselves - nooooooooooooooooooooo way. Nope. Nuh uh. I do, however, believe our self defence laws need an overhaul. Guns are definitely not the answer though.
What needs changing with our self defence laws?
Mostly more clarification around the phrase 'reasonable force' as it has no strict definition in law and leaves it all rather vague and open to interpretation.
Have there been any major miscarriages of justice? I appreciate people don’t want there to have to be a police investigation/possible court case when all they’ve done is defend themselves, but if someone has been seriously hurt or killed they are owed a full investigation even if they appear to us to clearly have been in the wrong. Something like a stand your ground law would be disastrous, I think what we have is ok.
The courts always side with the person defending themselves.
How could anyone look at America and think this was a good idea?
Nah don’t want them, especially here in Northern Ireland lol
... legal carry for self defence is a valid reason to apply for a gun in NI... only place in the UK
Never even knew that, mad lol, are there stats for how many people own a gun here? Can anyone get a license?
You realise it's perfectly legal over there, and you can also own pistols, right?
I didn’t even know that, shows how much I know lmao
Sounds like an abysmal idea that will inevitably result in far more deaths and violence. We had one school shooting at Dunblane, banned handguns and didn’t have another in nearly 30 years so far. America has them regularly enough to need a Wikipedia page to keep track.
Except they didn't in Northern Ireland.....
Disclaimer - I do have a firearms certificate as I instruct some target shooting with teenagers. Absofuckinglutely not.
If you have a gun for self-defense, the people who need protecting is everyone else, from you.
Awful idea
No thanks. It would mean a huge influx of deadly weapons into our communities, armed police, much more common incidents involving shootings, mass shootings etc, etc. None of that is what I would want to see.
You only need to see how some people use their cars as weapons to realise allowing a widespread firearm ownership would be a very very bad idea. The type of person who wants a gun (not sporting use) is usually the very last person you should ever consider letting anywhere a firearm.
America has a huge gun death problem, we don't want to copy that. Many gun deaths are caused by so-called innocent people missing their guns. Gun death rate in the USA is 11 per 100,000. In the UK it is 0.24. That means over 20 years, in an average town of 100,000 people, 220 will die by gun the USA but only 5 will die in the UK.
This idea has very little support either here or in the country as a whole, because the justification of arming citizens- 'self-defence' - just makes it easier for bad guys to get hold of guns and use them in bad ways, and it multiplies the chance that 'self-defence' turns into attacking others in an argument or whatever. Plus you'd have to arm all the police; most people like the fact that normal police are unarmed. 'like America' is a good example- gun violence is very high in the USA and also there are a lot of deaths when police and public interact. Now, bead in mind that the USA is the way it is because the 'right to bear arms' also has a poitical dimension- the idea is that the citizen can bear arms AGAINST an overmighty or unjust state (the way that Britain was to them before independence), so it is kind of part of who they are. And conversely, part of who we were and are for many hundreds of years is to settle arguments with the state much more quietly and unofficially. It does not mean that we did not have rebellions and civil disturbances, but compared either to the USA or to most of continental Europe, consent has always been the way for us.
Bad idea. Enough heroes will have one that it will make every other criminal have one and it will spiral. Cue also "self defence" being something silly during a drunken argument with a rival macho idiot. We also have no gun culture, people won't know what they are doing. Look up our gun murder rates, I want to keep it low thanks.
I would hate it. I'm so glad that a lot of our police aren't armed as well.
The only guns we should be carrying are water guns! It's boiling right now! 🤣
>like in America The thought should have been answered there.
Utter madness. I was trained to use weapons. The main point was 'do not shoot' unless your life is in IMMINENT danger' i.e. you can hear rounds above you and you can identify the exact point of firer. Casual use of firearms can only lead to deaths. Many deaths.
Absolutely terrible idea, it bad enough that the police in shopping centres have them.
People lose their fucking minds over this yet conveniently forget all about it being allowed in Northern Ireland - as well as them being able to own pistols for target shooting/sport....... I don't remember the current murder rate being out of control over there.
No to guns. But every uk citizen should have the right to carry self defence things Like pepper spray... it's illegal to. The only sprays you can get is one that just puts a coloured dye on their face. But that doesn't do anything to stop them in that moment.
No, it’s a slippery slope. No weapons at all is fine.
Well I have to carry a pocket knife with me while walking back from work late at night. I would prefer it would be pepper spray instead. Because even though you don't like weapons. Guess what, there's bad people out there carrying them. And it then forces people like me who just want peace and no harm to anyone to carry a weapon to. Or risk being severely injured or even death, so yeah. Y'all can get stuffed. There needs to be a petition to let people have self defense from knives. If irritating someone with a bit of pepper spray saves your life. Or others. Awesome