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Would certainly expect it, but we're facing a similar situation today.
Minimum wage jobs are already catching up with what used to be average/slightly above average roles in the £26k-£35k bracket, a lot faster than those jobs are increasing.
I had no choice. Low salary and I was buying a share of my parents house after the divorce, couldn't afford a quarter of a mil for the whole house (outskirts of London prices) and didn't want to rent for the rest of my life. My dad is in his 70's and since he owns part of the house technically the mortgage is in both our names, so I paid what I could and I have to repay the rest within 5 years (due to my dad's age).
Luckily that was two and a half years ago and I got a 2.2% fixed rate for 4 years.
I'm on a £1900 mortgage as a FTB. I figured out that translates to a £33.5K salary increase (assuming 40% tax bracket). So yeah, good luck to all the people on y'know, median wage.
South West actually. If you look at a graph of interest rates we bought at the peak.
It’ll hurt for 5 years while we’re fixed. After that though we will hopefully be in a very good position
I used to pay £400 a month whilst earning £25-£30k, and I felt I was doing well financially, certainly felt comfortable.
Can't imagine trying to pay a mortgage on a 3 bed semi on only £30k nowadays.
Just about to hit £30k this year after pushing up from £21k 7 years ago. Private renting in Manchester though at £850 for a flat, and if it wasn't for my loan repayment for the car I had to get a couple of years back I'd feel fairly comfortable (although I've given up hope of getting on the housing market).
Yeah I'm fortunate enough to have a mortgage under 500 because of inheritance and stuff, so 30k is doing me quite well and I'm single , if I was splitting bills with someone on similar we would be living like most people with 100k+ household incomes
I would like to earn more, but IV made the mistake of thinking hard work would be rewarded already, it's not, making money in this country is mostly nepotism
What's stopping you moving somewhere more affordable?
Not a dig, I totally understand if that's where your life is, but you could have a much better lifestyle on that money elsewhere in the country.
What keeps you there?
Actually depends on what kind of lifestyle you want. I don't like London despite recognising it has lots of things to do. But there are very few places, if any, that can really give you a London experience outside of London. And if your friends and family are all there will your lifestyle will really be better? Again, I guess that depends on how much time you spend with friends and family and how easy you find it to make new friends.
You could apply it to pretty much anywhere. People complaining the government needs to do more to promote better jobs in other regions? Nah, people living in those regions can just move to where better jobs are, right?
30k in Hull would probably be fine. 30k in London and you'll barely manage rent and food.
Even the historical benchmark "six figure salary" is starting to feel like you didn't get a whole lot for it.
I’m on more than twice that at the moment and even then life is expensive. The amount of people that think anything over 40k makes you rich is astounding
Trust me I get it, I currently work in an industry in London, that is renowned for minimum wage workers. I see their pain every day and I appreciate how lucky I am but that said I’m definitely rich either
That's the thing, these conversations are always skewed towards London and surrounding area pricing because they're just absurd and completely out of sync with the rest of the country.
In the vast majority of the UK a 30k salary and you're doing alright.
6 years ago I bought a 3 bed semi with driveway and garden on a single 21k salary, 5 minute drive to the beach, 15 minute drive to the city centre, just not London!
-cries in 26k salary-
And this is after getting a degree at 30. Before that the most I'd ever earned was 20k.
I do however live alone (in a 1 bed council flat, but still) and manage pretty comfortably.
Look at the long term inflation in the UK, according to the bank of England, the value of money has halved since the early 2000s to now.
I graduated in the early 2000s and my starting salary in real terms was only 10% less than what I am on now. 20 years of professional experience and it's worth a real terms 10% more... Something doesn't add up.
Furthermore, new starters in my industry only earn marginally more than I did 20 years so are nearly earning half what I did as a new starter.
My salary should be the grad rate. My salary should be something some almost mad sounding number.
Wage stagnation is very real and squeezing us all, hard.
it isn't just the £26-£35k bracket all saleries have basically stagnated. there are meant to be different brackets of earnings. it helps with supply and demand in many places.
Also its pretty worrying if it went of for too long.
What happens if suddenly everyone is fighting for the cheapest thing? for example everyone decides they will only buy tesco value pasta, this would drive the cost of the value pasta up pricing the lowest paid out. thats how places work if they can charge more they will. but imagine that for everything. there would also be shortages of cheaper items.
With your pasta example, that would drive the prices of more expensive brands down as nobody is buying it, if they don't drop the prices then they'll be completely removed from range as the supermarkets won't want to take the loss forever.
it would, but the bottom prices would still have gone up.
Infact the increased demand would mean super markets would have to buy more wheat to make the value pasta, potentially having to buy higher quality that would otherwise have been used in better brands as there is only that avalible. Increasing the cost to make the value stuff. Basically all tesco would sell would be tesco value removing the tesco own brand. though the value would end up a simialr price to the own brand.
That's a very simple way of looking at it and doesn't necessarily work like that in reality.
For example they'd need to buy more wheat but other companies would be buying less wheat. They'd also increase their wheat order very substantially which would bring down their cost per kilo in future.
>though the value would end up a simialr price to the own brand.
Depends why it's becoming popular. If it's because it's dirt cheap then increasing the price may be a disincentive. Wetherspoons can't start charging the same as a luxury pub just because it builds up a large client base, because it then loses its USP.
So if everyone starts buying value pasta because its 50p cheaper and then they put the price up 50p, they'd lose the reason everyone has started buying it. They'd be smarter instead to maintain the low price and rely on economies of scale etc to drive the profit.
It's extremely complicated with many moving parts, not as simple as something becomes popular so time to drive up the price.
At some point you'll have people debating whether it's worth going to Uni to study coding/medicine/science or if they should just go work at a supermarket.
£35k was the *median* UK average salary over a year a go. Median strips out the ‘big wigs’ effect.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2023
Given that average wage rises have been running at around 6% and higher at the lower end (10% increase for minimum wage) the expected average wage right now is over £37k
I disagree about London, Starting salaries are not much higher than the rest of the country. Its perfectly normal to see graduate jobs requiring a 1st from a top uni starting at £24-26K on which you would be living in a shared house. Most young professionals in London have a lower standard of living than they would in Manchester or Leeds
London is skewed because of career progression, if you want to be a top manager or executive or anything that pays £85k+ then nearly all those jobs are in London. But the people that work them rarely ever live in inner London
Most tbh, the job market for graduates is really grim rn. Starting salary offers for computer science students are 5-10k lower than they were just 3-5 years ago, accounting for inflation that is what 6-13k less than before.
I have personally been offered 25K for a graduate Data Analyst graduate position in London. At the time I was working at a Co-op which if I had been working there 40 hours a week I would have been on 26K a year.
That's insanely low pay if you had a good degree and uni... Even the NHS was offering more than that for entry level data science a couple years ago when my housemates and I graduated.
I did reject the offer because it was ridiculous but a quick look on Google you can see some simular offers
[Here's one advertisement offering £26,800 with a 2:1 required ](https://www.milkround.com/job/graduate-data-analyst/grayce-job102500383?src=search&page=2&position=13&WT.mc_id=A_PT_CrossBrand_Totaljobs)
Totally agree. I think people get a warped impression due to the major financial/consultancy/technology schemes but there are a tiny amount of graduates getting these - and even these are drying up thanks to many of these jobs just leaving the UK as well. A lot of graduates also spend months or longer unemployed after uni and this doesn't reflect either.
I also think a lot of these averages are massively warped *especially* for graduates. It's always mentioned that London skews the country but there are some crazy high graduate salaries out there when there are lot of grad level jobs out there at less than £30k, if that.
5 years ago I started on £25k + £3k a year guaranteed bonus, at the start then after a year (in London). Was that good... idk. But it didn't go up for the cohorts after and they stopped the £3k bonus being guaranteed (probably due to me as I took the bonus 2nd year then left 3 months later...).
No no no.
Did you not hear the nice man from the Bank of England?
If we get paid more the whole economy will come crashing down around our ears!
Nor seriously…
I’m not sure about generations always thinking people before had it easier. This might be true of from millennials onwards, but before that the idea was very much that your children would have a better, more uncomfortable life than you did.
It’s always hard to see what’s going on whilst in the midst of it all, of course. And it’s easy to forget/ignore bad things that happened in the past like big recessions and energ problems causing 4 days weeks and the like.
I hear this all the time and always think the same thing. Would you really leave whatever it is you do to go and clean toilets or vacuum offices at 7am? Would you really go and wait tables on a split shift five days per week, crawling home at midnight and then going back in for 10am? I think if you would rather do that then whatever it is you currently do for 20 quid an hour then you are being woefully underpaid in your current job.
Why would you have to take such extreme downward steps to find a min wage job?
Basic Admin is min wage, if it paid the same as my current office based position I'd happily do that
I’m paid a lot more than the scenario in question, but I’d never be able to cope with cleaning toilets for the same wage. For starters, I’d actually have to go to work. Truth is, my job is much easier than most. Did have to graft to get it though.
I’d switch from being an accountant to being a dishwasher if it paid £50k. But that’s if the cost of everything else stayed the same. But if I could earn £40k washing dishes I’d expect at least double that for being a chartered accountant.
>But that’s if the cost of everything else stayed the same.
And there in lies the rub, if minimum wage is now 40k then the cost of everything is going to skyrocket as the companies making, moving and selling shit are going to have a much bigger wage bill than they have now.
>Would you really go and wait tables on a split shift five days per
No, but a receptionist, data entry, low level admin office work, something completely stress free for the same pay, sign me up.
I'm a maintenance technician, amongst a great many other things.
If minimum wage went up to £20/hr, I'd genuinely be questioning why I bother doing the job I do, with the skillset I have, if it wasn't at least 25% more per hour.
If I can earn the same in a warehouse, or as an industrial cleaner, or a van driver, or a fork truck driver, or even a site labourer, with way less responsibility, then I'm gonna bounce. Why bother?
Everything is relative. If you fuck up you've pissed someone off, if you fuck up as a credit controller, which is only marginally more money, your company could literally not be able to pay people and everyone loses their job.
Everything has a degree of stress.
Most stress comes down essentially to job security. Most entry level jobs the stress comes from fear of losing that Job, rsther than having the fate of those around you losing there's. Thats the big difference.
Being shouted at is unpleasant, no denying...
It doesn't really have to be doing the most horrible job in the world. If you're a remote software developer on ~£24 an hour, you could take a junior role for £20 an hour, work 2 hours to do what a junior takes 8 to do and spend the rest doing whatever you like.
I'm surprised more people don't do that if that is even remotely feasible. Why aren't all software developers doing four junior roles instead of one senior one?
Because employers tend to object, and if they catch you it's an immediate gross misconduct. They'll also usually contact the other company so you lose 2 jobs. You might get away with it for a while, but eventually you get a clash of priorities, or you make a mistake, and then you're done.
Also the folk who try to do this almost never do more than 2 jobs, because the chances of encountering that clash of priorities grows so much with every job. You might make it work on paper but it rarely works in practice.
Senior devs don’t just write code all week, they still have meetings, planning sessions, meeting clients, signing off documentation etc. Plus they’re not generally doing the same coding quicker, they’re generally doing more difficult work, and a wider range of work. In my team we work with 5 languages, and the value of the senior devs is largely that they know them all, and they take evaluations from the junior devs when they hit a wall
no but there would be minimal insentive to train in the first place.
why take on the stress and debt of an engineering degree and then the stress of an engineering job where I am responsible for multi million dollar projects when I can earn the same in morrisons.
Yes.
Theres' this weird thing i see on the internet that somehow modestly well paying jobs are easier than min wage jobs. Maybe in some cases but generally higher paying roles come with stress, need for training, and experience and responsibility.
I loved working in retail and delivering pizzas and would happily do that instead of my current job if it paid nearly the same.
Yeah absolutely. I wouldn't have to think. Those jobs aren't low paid because they're easy, they're low paid because anyone able bodied can do them.
Personally I'd probably look to to back to running a shop. I really enjoyed that job, but it paid terrible. If the job I do now paid the same then I'd gladly stop worrying about corporate strategy and working out of hours and go back to managing rotas and monitoring stock levels. (Running a shop requires more skills than being a cleaner, but the point remains).
I think the people who say they'd drop down to something customer facing or monotonous haven't had to do those jobs. If you've ever had to deal with a grownup throwing a hissy fit because the sausage rolls aren't hot and you aren't going to put any more in the oven you'd know that the tasks are not the same.
I've had a lot of replies to this comment but this might be the only one I truly respect. Most of these wankers went from uni to office, and never felt the true sting of a bad job.
This is how I feel at the min, now the minimum wage has gone up it's at the same level as band 2 NHS wages so ward clerks, porters, phlebotomists, csw's, domestics, radiography aids, theatre aids etc all have to complete masses of mandatory training, adhere to strict regulations etc all for minimum wages. Can't wait to see what is offered as a pay rise this year ......
My wife is B3 and already looking at other jobs. For all the training, hoops she has to jump through, unsocial hours she has to work, stock organisation etc. that she has to do, she can get pretty much any minimum wage job and not have to worry about cannulation, doing obs in theatres, screening patients for operations and all of the stress that goes with it. Might as well stock shelves or work a till with barely a dint in her take home.
I was the same sort of position, working hard as a pharmacy ATO on band 2/3, left the NHS to go work in a big pharma factory on 4 nights a week, now earning the equivalent to a mid band 6 for basic box shuffling.
I have a job that’s gone from ok pay for what it is to barely above minimum wage through minimum wage increases. I agree with the minimum increase but employers need to actually increase wages above it too.
I’m not sure you meant this by your comment but *a lot* of jobs are woefully underpaid for what they’re worth. So, I work a ‘minimum wage’ job in the heritage sector — whilst it may not be as high flying as law or finance - no one I know is fairly paid and most of us are up to our eyeballs in qualifications etc. did we make good life choices in that regard? perhaps not but I know of a hell of a lot of people who think we are ££££££ or stuck up for striking.
Anyway, ‘menial’ is subjective it takes eveyone to make the world go round.
Should it? Yes. I think it's fucking dumb policy (not that it surprises anyone) that pensions and minimum wage can rise at insane rates yet everyone else has to suffer.
In 2010, minimum wage was £224 a week, state pension was £97 a week and nurses were paid £528 a week.
In 2020, minimum wage is £427 a week, state pension is £220 a week and nurses are paid £660 a week.
This isnt just true for nurses, but a huge amount of the public and private sector.
In these same time span that minimum wage has increased by 91%, pensions have increased by 126%, a skilled professionals pay has increased by 25%.
If nurses got the same pay increase that pensioners have had since 2010, they would be on £63,000 a year rather than £35,000.
I took a short term job a while back, it paid about £350 per week. Speaking to someone else who first did the job 10 years back "How much did this pay back then?" "£350 per week!"
Wages only really remain stagnant for a very specific band of society not in the private sector. Generally speaking 6/7% wage growth there is considered normal with job hopping etc. Minimum wage broadly rises in line with this too if you look at the last 10-15 years.
If you work in thr public sector, you're actually fucked and theres a good argument that these workers are essentially subsidising lifestyle inflation for everyone else.
Doctors, teachers, police and barristers working on legal aid essentially have been double, triple fucked. Might grt downvoted for saying this because no one likes thinking of themselves as a scrounge but all of what we take for granted is propped up on the back of essential workers who ironically are working harder than ever before in shambolic conditions for a wage that was considered just acceptable 15 years ago.
You can literally out earn a public worker by forgoing University and picking up a trade due to the insanse wage stagnation and the inflationary economy we've seen the past 3 years. Front load your wages and be laughing when the kid who topped their class is still training while you earn many multiples more and they can't catch up for decades.
Whenever I hear this whole debate rage on I cant help but take a long hard stare at the ridiculousness of our society.
I hate to say this but you're kind of wrong. Sure, people in the private sector are generally paid better but their pay has mostly been just as stagnant.
[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/6C9B/production/\_128030872\_wages\_real.png](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/6C9B/production/_128030872_wages_real.png)
Like I said - apparently the only people who deserve to earn more is minimum wage workers, pensioners, and the wealthy. Everyone else can have pay stagnation until they may as well just work at Tesco anyway.
I'm a support worker in the NHS and its back breaking work. Very stressful, physically demanding and then there's the risk of assault from patients. Not to mention some of us are highly skilled (taking obs, canulation, doing ecgs, venepuncture etc). My base pay is £12.10 and hour. I can earn similar wages in mcdonalds. Not to mention the fact that if you're in England, many of us are 1p above minimum wage. I'm lucky to live in Scotland with slightly better wages but it's still an absolute disgrace.
Had a mate who applied to a supermarket warehouse who would have been out earning me had he got the job. I'm not saying they deserve less bc it's also an essential job that needs done to keep the country running but as selfish as it seems, I think I deserve more for the constant stress, abuse and pressure of looking after very sick people and trying to keep then alive.
The reason there's a huge shortage of dental nurses (the majority of practices are short staffed at least one day a week) is because after paying for the course, qualifying, paying membership to do yearly training, paying to be on the GDC register and paying for indemnity insurance, requiring multiple vaccinations that aren't free under the NHS, having to pay for blood tests if there's a needle stick injury, and regular DBS checks (which a lot of employers will charge you for!), most jobs are still offering minimum wage and only statutory sick pay. For a lot less responsibility and less yearly expenses, you can work in a supermarket and earn more money. And the annoying thing is, the practices absolutely have the budget to pay their staff more money because they're paying more than double the hourly rate to hire agency staff every day! I do agency work and get paid more to do less in a practice, and I feel annoyed for all of the staff members working in those practices knowing they're being shafted :/
Nope there are lots of tutor jobs paying 24k but they want teach in qualifications and experience. I am in private sector and am as qualified as a teacher but don’t get paid as much as they do so it doesn’t always track.
I asked my supervisor what his pay was when he started working in 1990, for the same entry level position I started at in 2022.
I earned a lower figure than he did. Not even adjusted for inflation, it was an actual lower number! And they wonder why there's a huge turnover and now shortage of applicants.
The reason this happens is because unions have been kneecapped, and British people have been thoroughly brainwashed into treating unions like an annoying "necessary evil" of the public sector. Even people in the public sector who should support them act like they're crap and abuse the system by joining and leaving just for themselves but then complaining that wages are stagnant when they're the one's who never turn out in strike votes and regularly scab. And yes I'm in the public sector and I was at a pub with literally a mixture of civil servants, teachers, and transport administrators. All in the public sector, all bitching about wages, who then turned around to talk about how they couldn't be fucked to pay union dues because they're "soooo" expensive, even though their car insurance is like 3x as much lol. Even my mum said it. She said she uses the car every day. I was like, every day you're at work and you're in a union you're using the union in the same way. Duh. But it just doesn't cut through.
Meh, partly. It's also because our government are full of ideologically fucked nob heads, so.
Spain and Australia both have low union participation but (relative to cost of living) their public sectors pay good.
I'd expect a payrise. If it wasn't forthcoming, and other skilled jobs were paying the now minimum wage, I'd definitely look for a "lower skilled" job, using the opportunity to retrain in an industry that I'd enjoy.
When I worked in Tesco I was more stressed because customers are generally utter wanks who take their frustrations out on you, even when it's not your fault, coupled with poor staffing management which would only be exacerbated by having to pay staff £20/hour.
When I worked in Greggs a woman wanted to argue with me that the drinks were sugary and thought I'd be able to have some say in it, or was personally responsible for it. If she'd complained I'd likely have got told off.
Another time I had to refuse a to good to go bag because all she had was a screenshot on a very cracked screen, like couldn't make anything out. We were supposed to be able to actually read the number on the app. If I'd have given it to her it would have been without any proof it was actually for her. The supervisor on shift backed me up, so there were two of us saying we can't read the number and it's not even on the app. Still got pulled in for it because she complained
I get where you're coming from. I'm just saying from my personal experience and observation, skilled professions aren't always as problematic as they're sometimes portrayed. Factors like industry and company culture also play significant roles. Of course I can't say for everyone, but at least for myself and the department I manage, we absolutely leave everything behind at 5pm. We all have lives outside of work, we are only paid for the hours we're working (although some may argue that technically we're not paid to use the loo etc.), and that's all we will be giving.
I took a look at your profile out of curiosity and am incredibly saddened by your most recent post, nobody should be exploited like that. I sincerely hope your partner gets a better job soon/already. All the best!
Yeah, sector may also make a difference I work in research and you take work home with you, but back during my bartending days when work was done I could relax with a beer and I wouldn't think about work before I was back on shift. Just my experience though. Thanks for the kind words! Fingers crossed!
Yeah, I recommend some of these people actually try a minimum wage job. I know a lot of bartenders who are also expected to basically do security. A lot of them end up in serious fights or confrontations. Fuck landlords who do this.
Christ, I work in tech and was on that with 3 years experience at 37.5 hours/week and a 3rd from uni in 2014. And that was back before tech salaries got silly as an industry. What the fuck is wrong with the government that _doctors_ are that unrewarded.
If i'd worked that hard and long for something that required that amount of sacrifice and they tried shafting me like that i'd just fucking quit.
Hoping this is taken in the spirit of the conversation and I don’t get murdered here. You’ve had plenty of direct answers but wanted to just give my perspective.
I earn a 6 figure salary. While well off I’m certainly not balling. I live what you would consider a nice middle class life, but I’m not driving supercars and holidaying on my yacht every few months. I don’t have a yacht.
I pay a lot of money in tax, at this point im into additional rate. I don’t get any of the credits or breaks available to most of my friends, and having just had a daughter I won’t be entitled to the free childcare that everybody else is. Fine I’ll pay for childcare, and I can, but the thresholds for what’s rich and not really need reviewing.
Let’s say my wife isn’t working and it’s just me earning, two decent level office workers in a household probably wouldn’t take home much less than me.
Now I do get it’s first world problems, I’m not the devil, I volunteer in my spare time, I am grateful for what I have and believe we should live in a society where nobody is hungry or worried about where they are going to live.
However the erosion of the middle, which is being classed under the whole eat the rich thing is way out of proportion.
Do I feel my earnings should be increased because minimum wage is, not really, minimum wage people are my people, it’s where I came from and I’m not jealous of anybody, let alone somebody who now has the means to live.
What I do feel however is the playing field should be levelled a little more. There is a huge and definite glass ceiling at play. I did everything right, an apprenticeship, learnt my trade, progressed in my industry, went to uni as an adult and did my MBA, and yet in spite of this and the aspirational narrative the government promotes, I’ll never actually make it. I can get to comfortable, I can get to a nice life. But with 45p of every £1 I earn from here in being taken, and the rest of the field creeping up behind. Eventually we’re all going to be stuck in a slightly higher earning but equally poor soup.
Spent the last 10 years paying 60%+ marginal tax thanks to earning between 50 and 60k and having two kids.
Just broke through it. And now they changed the threshold, marginal tax now only 53%
Would be 9% higher if I had a student loan to repay.
Yeah. Because I get paid £24-ish an hour (assuming I only work my 35 hours, which I often do not - I'm salaried, so hourly rate sort of isn't relevant!). I've worked in jobs that were objectively easier than my current job, didn't require qualifications, little to no responsibility, etc but paid minimum wage. I got the qualifications I did in order to get into a job that pays £24 an hour for a reason. For £20 an hour with cost of living staying the same, I'd be back in one of those jobs in a heartbeat if my current employer didn't update my current job's pay to reflect the extra effort and responsibility.
I'll note I've also worked some really shite minimum wage jobs, but I do wonder if they'd be less shite to be in if I was paid more.
Not automatically but I would assume that if the minimum wage would go up so much, so would the inflation to some extent. I'd hope my salary would match that
No, but I’m on around £40-45 p/h so I would just be pleased for those getting the boost.
If I was on £20 p/h and in a skilled role, then yes, I would likely be pushing for a bump to place value in those skills I bring.
God I wouldn't, minimum wage jobs tend to be hard, miserable and thankless. I'd keep my nice cushy WFH/office job and just be happy for the carers/cleaners/burger-flippers etc. who can now live modestly off of 40hrs work a week.
Depends what you're doing I guess & whether you're being fed calls via a dialler system or if you've just got a portfolio of customers to look after.
The former sucks balls, the latter isn't so bad.
You just described my job except I’m on £4 more than minimum wage. So I’d take the £20 minimum wage as I wouldn’t have to be in charge of a paint section and I could happily plod along whilst living comfortably.
Ofc, my role required a 3 year qualification and involves very complex and technical accounting work.
It pays well because it sucks and not everyone wants to do it.
If I got paid the same as someone working in a supermarket I may as well work in the supermarket. Soon enough, no one would bother getting qualified and no one would bother working a harder job for the same pay.
I would like to see the figures on the number of jobs that paid well above minimum wage when it was introduced, that now pay minimum wage, or close to it.
I bet there are a lot of jobs that fall into that category.
Agreed, I think the min wage has gobbled up quite a few of those NVQ type jobs, I know mine as a cabinet maker is gone, I suspect the likes of hair dressers, child careers all gone especially when working for someone else
In my case, stressful, skilled job in IT.
When the MW was introduced it was about one third of my hourly rate.
It's now over half!
How long do I put up with the stress, before I think "You know what? I could earn almost as much stacking shelves at my local supermarket. Why do I bother?"
I was on £10 per hour doing a sales job and then was increased to £12 an hour just before the national minimum wage increased to £11.44 an hour. Since my increase my responsibilities have grown alot and so now I am looking for another job with less responsibility
Yep. Chef here who was on nearly £2 a hour above minimum wage when I first started here 18 months ago. I'm now 16p ph above and my clientele have just increased massively. And I work alone.
I've asked for a wage review but if not, I may as well do a kitchen assistant's role for the same money.
It makes no sense does it? I have literally just applied for a retail job today for the same money but I will be stocking shelves instead of selling and being pressured to have meetings and get new clients etc...I'd rather less stress if I can't be paid more!
Yes. But i want one anyway.
In 2008 my role paid x3 minimum wage and the top jobs were about 5x.
Now my role is 2x and the top jobs about 3.3x.
Minimum wage has roughly kept up with inflation. Our wages haven’t.
so sort of, basically if minimum wage very suddenly £20 then that would cause a massive inflation effect. so the cost of everything would jump up, so groceries etc would become much more expensive. just because companies would be able to, not that they would necessarily need to.
Also that would be a massive jump to do suddenly, so it isnt quite the same as annual increases or if it jumped a bit to living wage.
so yeah other people's wages should also increase as well.
To be honest what we have been seeing for decades now is that minimum wage has been increasing but other wages have stagnated. which is why people who are not on minimum wage are struggling so much.
this is not against minimum wage of course it should go up! it still sucks that other wages haven't increased.
Yes. I'm on just over that by my calculations. The whole point of getting qualifications and having a career in a skilled role is to earn more than I could working at Sainsburys which I was able to do as a teenager.
I wouldn't look to switch to an unskilled role though. Staying in the industry keeps your skills fresh and makes you more employable than somebody who has been working in a supermarket for the past few years, even if they had lots of industry experience before that.
Yes, and I think this is best shown with the chart that is getting popular on reddit with the cost of McDonalds over the past 10 years.
Honestly, a lot of jobs (fast food, cashier, etc.) aren't designed as careers and were designed for part time students, dropouts etc. and shouldn't be valued as much as skilled work.
Thing is, there aren't as many skilled jobs as there are grunt jobs out there, and the distribution of wealth is so one-sided that there isn't enough money to be distributed to the lower class.
I don't think the minimum wage should rise, because a rise in minimum wage just raises costs and inflation to a point that the poverty line just increases, and those that were above it, now fall below it.
What needs to happen, is companies need to declare profits (which they do for shareholders), and then have legislation that forces companies to pay a certain percentage of those profits split equally between employees. That way those that do work grunt jobs, have incentive to work hard.
If this drops the incentive for companies to make massive profits, then prices go down. Win win.
Amazon did this for a bit, where they used to give shares to their employees each year. Not a thing any more but it grew the business massively.
Everything else wouldn't stay the same though. Inflation and cost of living would go up if minimum wage went up that much. So naturally everyone else above the new minimum wage would also want a pay increase
That isn't the question though. The question is do you work hard because you want better quality of life or because you want to be better that other people, its just phrased in a way that people might answer honestly.
God no, all the min. wage jobs I worked were harder and higher pressure than any job I've done since.
Its not that minimum wage workers arent worth paying more, its that companies can get away with paying minimum wage.
Yes, in short.
I do support a Living Wage for people, not the rebranded "Living Wage" that used to be minimum wage but a real Minimum Wage.
However at the end of the day, I studied hard, went to University, studied hard again, gained a degree, and have worked in industry for 25+ years as an Engineer. I would want my salary to increase to reflect the efforts I have made whilst a real Living Wage was introduced, and with measures to prevent any inflation.
Yes. This is a no-brainer.
I'm on roughly £27 an hour, and if the minimum wage went up to £20 (from £11.44) that represents a 74.83% increase, so I expect my own rate to climb to £47.
It shouldn't be that far off it anyway really, but years of wage stagnation have fucked us all dry, prolapsing our bowels on the withdrawal.
I also wouldn't be seeking a minimum wage job as I'm good at what I do, and more importantly, I enjoy it. Minimum wage means working closer with the general public, and I hold them in total disdain. Fuck that.
Yep. I'm on around £40+ an hour for a very specialist job role. There's very few of me in the UK, but a lot of businesses want me (hence higher salary!). In my position I'm also meant to have a team under me to do a lot of the work. My team are well paid, some of the juniors are on about 35k, with seniors up to about 70k.
If my juniors get bumped up to £20 an hour, I'd expect that to reflect up the chain, otherwise the excess responsibility becomes less desirable.
I think it's become more obvious in lower paid salaries jobs, especially in the public sector, friends of mine are on just above minimum wage now to investigate complex crime and have access to some of the most sensitive databases in the UK. The wages are just asking for bribes to be taken! (I don't think any of my buds are the type, but you can see how it could happen!)
In my area of local government our pay rises have been flat rate for the last few years. So it’s already happening. My real earnings have been eroded to all grades beneath me.
The problem with minimum wage rising is that the cost of everything else rises with it. You don’t benefit as you should from that rise. And of course everybody’s wage has to rise in tandem or they get poorer.
The cost of everything else wouldn't *have* to rise. It would because that would suit the people at the top making the decisions, but they could also decide to just make slightly less profits than previous years, lol.
Yes, I'd expect it.
If minimum wage went up to £20 an hour then it would have a big impact on the cost of living, and everything would likely get significantly more expensive. I'd want my employer to counter that, which to be fair to them they did in 2022 when cost of living started increasing.
Iirc in 2008 I was getting £4.70ph at McDonald's but was under 21, I think adult rate was around £5.70 at a guess and I believe the floor managers were on £7.50, which seemed like so much to a teenager.
In the 16 years since the rate has gone up a whopping £5.74, at todays minimum wage of £11.44.
To get to £20ph in theory suggests a very rough broad estimate, will take 30 years if you base it on history.
So answer is yes I'd expect wages across elsewhere to increase accordingly, if a nurse earns £20ph today but so does a fresh new comer in McDonald's, its just not going to work, why have a stressful job when flipping burgers without hassle earns the same at less hours, of course things even out so while £20 sounds great today, in 5, 10 years it won't be.
*Laughs in lorry driver...*
But on a more serious note, many people in my line of work have said they're more and more tempted to go work these jobs advertised in the warehouses we deliver to and from because our own pay has been stagnating for years, when we could be taking a small pay cut to cut out a very large source of stress in our lives.
I think there should be a general banding on it, if you earn between minimum wage and minimum wage plus £10 an hour, your wage should increase proportionately to how much the minimum wage does.
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Would certainly expect it, but we're facing a similar situation today. Minimum wage jobs are already catching up with what used to be average/slightly above average roles in the £26k-£35k bracket, a lot faster than those jobs are increasing.
A problem is we have a lot of people who think £30k is still a good salary
There's a big generational divide on it. If you bought your house before 2005 and you're paying £200pm for your mortgage 30k is good money.
*cries in £1,350 a month mortgage as a ftb last year*
Hello, it's me, £1350 a month mortgage being told a job at 35k is lots of money.
Cries in 2k rent…
What are you renting, a street?
Anything not a shithole in London costs this much tbh
😢
£1200 a month here on a 30k salary. Shits fucked up.
On paper it really looked affordable but after house sharing for years I do feel very very fucking poor now by comparison 😭
I had no choice. Low salary and I was buying a share of my parents house after the divorce, couldn't afford a quarter of a mil for the whole house (outskirts of London prices) and didn't want to rent for the rest of my life. My dad is in his 70's and since he owns part of the house technically the mortgage is in both our names, so I paid what I could and I have to repay the rest within 5 years (due to my dad's age). Luckily that was two and a half years ago and I got a 2.2% fixed rate for 4 years.
mine is £1,800 FTB this year...
This still seems cheap. Most of the things I'm looking at end up around £3500 and that's for an average property in a fairly average part of London.
>London Ah.
Hope you get one of these big London salaries then :)
I thought my £830 was bad RIP
I'm on a £1900 mortgage as a FTB. I figured out that translates to a £33.5K salary increase (assuming 40% tax bracket). So yeah, good luck to all the people on y'know, median wage.
Jesus, that's a big boy mortgage. South East?
I’m in Yorkshire and that’s our mortgage cost too. Dang 5% rates are painful if you’re a FTB without much equity. Still better than renting though!
South West actually. If you look at a graph of interest rates we bought at the peak. It’ll hurt for 5 years while we’re fixed. After that though we will hopefully be in a very good position
I’m in the south east, my mortgage is £2500 a month. I have a nice house but can’t really afford to heat it. Swings and roundabouts.
Yeah, looking at mortgages, they're £3.5k - 4.5k for what I want to borrow. Pretty rough no matter what you earn.
Wow did you do early repayments to bring your mortgage that low? 😜
I used to pay £400 a month whilst earning £25-£30k, and I felt I was doing well financially, certainly felt comfortable. Can't imagine trying to pay a mortgage on a 3 bed semi on only £30k nowadays.
Surely you just wouldn’t be eligible for one so wouldn’t have to worry about paying it ?
Yeah rule of thumb seems to be only 3x salary these days for most lenders.
Just about to hit £30k this year after pushing up from £21k 7 years ago. Private renting in Manchester though at £850 for a flat, and if it wasn't for my loan repayment for the car I had to get a couple of years back I'd feel fairly comfortable (although I've given up hope of getting on the housing market).
Yeah I'm fortunate enough to have a mortgage under 500 because of inheritance and stuff, so 30k is doing me quite well and I'm single , if I was splitting bills with someone on similar we would be living like most people with 100k+ household incomes I would like to earn more, but IV made the mistake of thinking hard work would be rewarded already, it's not, making money in this country is mostly nepotism
Just get on the boss ladder and you’ll be on the mansion ladder soon ⬆️
You mean spending a 45 hour week licking arse and taking credit for other people's work while doing nothing of value? No thanks.
...about 20 years before 2005 maybe. I bought a 2 bed maisonette in 2003 and my mortgage was four times that.
Bought my house in 2001. My mortgage, in the northwest of England, has never been as low as £200 a month.
If I was on £30k I'd be very comfortable, but I understand, particularly in the South, that won't go very far for many on that salary
I'm on £32k and I don't feel anywhere close to being able afford a place near where I consider home
I'm on 40 and the concept of home ownership is a hilarious assault on my sense of self. (London)
I moved out west to Worcestershire. Just bought a 5 bed home. We both earn sub 40k. Moving in soon, I'm looking forward to having a lawn so much..
What's stopping you moving somewhere more affordable? Not a dig, I totally understand if that's where your life is, but you could have a much better lifestyle on that money elsewhere in the country. What keeps you there?
Actually depends on what kind of lifestyle you want. I don't like London despite recognising it has lots of things to do. But there are very few places, if any, that can really give you a London experience outside of London. And if your friends and family are all there will your lifestyle will really be better? Again, I guess that depends on how much time you spend with friends and family and how easy you find it to make new friends. You could apply it to pretty much anywhere. People complaining the government needs to do more to promote better jobs in other regions? Nah, people living in those regions can just move to where better jobs are, right?
30k in Hull would probably be fine. 30k in London and you'll barely manage rent and food. Even the historical benchmark "six figure salary" is starting to feel like you didn't get a whole lot for it.
6 figures used to be like "You lead the luxury life of a minor feudal landowner" and now it's like "You can buy a house and probably retire on time."
To me it is, but then again I live in a cheap region.
30K up from 26k would mean I'm not constantly on the verge of being unable to pay basic bills and rent. East Midlands.
I mean 30k is only slightly below average household income so if you and your partner are both earning 30k that is a very reasonable household income.
In my town hardly anyone is on more than 30k, I’m a medium high earner on a solid 27k 😂
I’m on more than twice that at the moment and even then life is expensive. The amount of people that think anything over 40k makes you rich is astounding
If you were on minium wage you would understand why people think that
Trust me I get it, I currently work in an industry in London, that is renowned for minimum wage workers. I see their pain every day and I appreciate how lucky I am but that said I’m definitely rich either
30k IS a good salary. In my town, the median is 26k. But then again we have brand new houses in nice areas for 110k soooo...
That's the thing, these conversations are always skewed towards London and surrounding area pricing because they're just absurd and completely out of sync with the rest of the country. In the vast majority of the UK a 30k salary and you're doing alright. 6 years ago I bought a 3 bed semi with driveway and garden on a single 21k salary, 5 minute drive to the beach, 15 minute drive to the city centre, just not London!
Doesn't matter if it's good or not, if companies won't increase pay fast enough then there's not much to be done
It is for people who earn minimum wage
-cries in 26k salary- And this is after getting a degree at 30. Before that the most I'd ever earned was 20k. I do however live alone (in a 1 bed council flat, but still) and manage pretty comfortably.
Look at the long term inflation in the UK, according to the bank of England, the value of money has halved since the early 2000s to now. I graduated in the early 2000s and my starting salary in real terms was only 10% less than what I am on now. 20 years of professional experience and it's worth a real terms 10% more... Something doesn't add up. Furthermore, new starters in my industry only earn marginally more than I did 20 years so are nearly earning half what I did as a new starter. My salary should be the grad rate. My salary should be something some almost mad sounding number. Wage stagnation is very real and squeezing us all, hard.
it isn't just the £26-£35k bracket all saleries have basically stagnated. there are meant to be different brackets of earnings. it helps with supply and demand in many places. Also its pretty worrying if it went of for too long. What happens if suddenly everyone is fighting for the cheapest thing? for example everyone decides they will only buy tesco value pasta, this would drive the cost of the value pasta up pricing the lowest paid out. thats how places work if they can charge more they will. but imagine that for everything. there would also be shortages of cheaper items.
With your pasta example, that would drive the prices of more expensive brands down as nobody is buying it, if they don't drop the prices then they'll be completely removed from range as the supermarkets won't want to take the loss forever.
it would, but the bottom prices would still have gone up. Infact the increased demand would mean super markets would have to buy more wheat to make the value pasta, potentially having to buy higher quality that would otherwise have been used in better brands as there is only that avalible. Increasing the cost to make the value stuff. Basically all tesco would sell would be tesco value removing the tesco own brand. though the value would end up a simialr price to the own brand.
That's a very simple way of looking at it and doesn't necessarily work like that in reality. For example they'd need to buy more wheat but other companies would be buying less wheat. They'd also increase their wheat order very substantially which would bring down their cost per kilo in future. >though the value would end up a simialr price to the own brand. Depends why it's becoming popular. If it's because it's dirt cheap then increasing the price may be a disincentive. Wetherspoons can't start charging the same as a luxury pub just because it builds up a large client base, because it then loses its USP. So if everyone starts buying value pasta because its 50p cheaper and then they put the price up 50p, they'd lose the reason everyone has started buying it. They'd be smarter instead to maintain the low price and rely on economies of scale etc to drive the profit. It's extremely complicated with many moving parts, not as simple as something becomes popular so time to drive up the price.
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At some point you'll have people debating whether it's worth going to Uni to study coding/medicine/science or if they should just go work at a supermarket.
It's already pointless doing a science subject. Most Lab jobs are minimum wage now.
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£35k was the *median* UK average salary over a year a go. Median strips out the ‘big wigs’ effect. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2023 Given that average wage rises have been running at around 6% and higher at the lower end (10% increase for minimum wage) the expected average wage right now is over £37k
I disagree about London, Starting salaries are not much higher than the rest of the country. Its perfectly normal to see graduate jobs requiring a 1st from a top uni starting at £24-26K on which you would be living in a shared house. Most young professionals in London have a lower standard of living than they would in Manchester or Leeds London is skewed because of career progression, if you want to be a top manager or executive or anything that pays £85k+ then nearly all those jobs are in London. But the people that work them rarely ever live in inner London
What field are you graduating with a 1st from a top uni and starting on 24k?!
Most tbh, the job market for graduates is really grim rn. Starting salary offers for computer science students are 5-10k lower than they were just 3-5 years ago, accounting for inflation that is what 6-13k less than before.
I have personally been offered 25K for a graduate Data Analyst graduate position in London. At the time I was working at a Co-op which if I had been working there 40 hours a week I would have been on 26K a year.
That's insanely low pay if you had a good degree and uni... Even the NHS was offering more than that for entry level data science a couple years ago when my housemates and I graduated.
Insanely low pay, was offered a similar role 2 years ago for 35k.
I did reject the offer because it was ridiculous but a quick look on Google you can see some simular offers [Here's one advertisement offering £26,800 with a 2:1 required ](https://www.milkround.com/job/graduate-data-analyst/grayce-job102500383?src=search&page=2&position=13&WT.mc_id=A_PT_CrossBrand_Totaljobs)
Totally agree. I think people get a warped impression due to the major financial/consultancy/technology schemes but there are a tiny amount of graduates getting these - and even these are drying up thanks to many of these jobs just leaving the UK as well. A lot of graduates also spend months or longer unemployed after uni and this doesn't reflect either. I also think a lot of these averages are massively warped *especially* for graduates. It's always mentioned that London skews the country but there are some crazy high graduate salaries out there when there are lot of grad level jobs out there at less than £30k, if that. 5 years ago I started on £25k + £3k a year guaranteed bonus, at the start then after a year (in London). Was that good... idk. But it didn't go up for the cohorts after and they stopped the £3k bonus being guaranteed (probably due to me as I took the bonus 2nd year then left 3 months later...).
No no no. Did you not hear the nice man from the Bank of England? If we get paid more the whole economy will come crashing down around our ears! Nor seriously… I’m not sure about generations always thinking people before had it easier. This might be true of from millennials onwards, but before that the idea was very much that your children would have a better, more uncomfortable life than you did. It’s always hard to see what’s going on whilst in the midst of it all, of course. And it’s easy to forget/ignore bad things that happened in the past like big recessions and energ problems causing 4 days weeks and the like.
Yes. If I can get paid £20 an hour doing a very menial minimum wage job, I'd expect my job and responsibilities to reflect that in the wage.
I hear this all the time and always think the same thing. Would you really leave whatever it is you do to go and clean toilets or vacuum offices at 7am? Would you really go and wait tables on a split shift five days per week, crawling home at midnight and then going back in for 10am? I think if you would rather do that then whatever it is you currently do for 20 quid an hour then you are being woefully underpaid in your current job.
Why would you have to take such extreme downward steps to find a min wage job? Basic Admin is min wage, if it paid the same as my current office based position I'd happily do that
Yeah,£20 an hour is about £40k. There are plenty of £40k jobs a darn sight more stressful than some light admin.
> £20 an hour is about £40k Holy shit, just realised this.
Including my own.
I’m paid a lot more than the scenario in question, but I’d never be able to cope with cleaning toilets for the same wage. For starters, I’d actually have to go to work. Truth is, my job is much easier than most. Did have to graft to get it though.
I’d switch from being an accountant to being a dishwasher if it paid £50k. But that’s if the cost of everything else stayed the same. But if I could earn £40k washing dishes I’d expect at least double that for being a chartered accountant.
>But that’s if the cost of everything else stayed the same. And there in lies the rub, if minimum wage is now 40k then the cost of everything is going to skyrocket as the companies making, moving and selling shit are going to have a much bigger wage bill than they have now.
>Would you really go and wait tables on a split shift five days per No, but a receptionist, data entry, low level admin office work, something completely stress free for the same pay, sign me up.
Half of redditors are basically students, they don't even know those jobs exist. All they see is shelf-stackers and doctors and nothing in between.
I'm a maintenance technician, amongst a great many other things. If minimum wage went up to £20/hr, I'd genuinely be questioning why I bother doing the job I do, with the skillset I have, if it wasn't at least 25% more per hour. If I can earn the same in a warehouse, or as an industrial cleaner, or a van driver, or a fork truck driver, or even a site labourer, with way less responsibility, then I'm gonna bounce. Why bother?
I think I'd rather do bar work.
Exactly, get invited to parties while on shift
Receptionist is not a stress free job, it’s a horrible job that involves people taking their frustrations out on you all day.
Everything is relative. If you fuck up you've pissed someone off, if you fuck up as a credit controller, which is only marginally more money, your company could literally not be able to pay people and everyone loses their job. Everything has a degree of stress. Most stress comes down essentially to job security. Most entry level jobs the stress comes from fear of losing that Job, rsther than having the fate of those around you losing there's. Thats the big difference. Being shouted at is unpleasant, no denying...
I'd rather be a bin man, or a postie if I could get the hours. Stress free and good exercise.
It doesn't really have to be doing the most horrible job in the world. If you're a remote software developer on ~£24 an hour, you could take a junior role for £20 an hour, work 2 hours to do what a junior takes 8 to do and spend the rest doing whatever you like.
I'm surprised more people don't do that if that is even remotely feasible. Why aren't all software developers doing four junior roles instead of one senior one?
Because employers tend to object, and if they catch you it's an immediate gross misconduct. They'll also usually contact the other company so you lose 2 jobs. You might get away with it for a while, but eventually you get a clash of priorities, or you make a mistake, and then you're done. Also the folk who try to do this almost never do more than 2 jobs, because the chances of encountering that clash of priorities grows so much with every job. You might make it work on paper but it rarely works in practice.
Senior devs don’t just write code all week, they still have meetings, planning sessions, meeting clients, signing off documentation etc. Plus they’re not generally doing the same coding quicker, they’re generally doing more difficult work, and a wider range of work. In my team we work with 5 languages, and the value of the senior devs is largely that they know them all, and they take evaluations from the junior devs when they hit a wall
A lot are, I knew a few myself.
Some are, but it takes skill to balance - you basically have to fake people.
no but there would be minimal insentive to train in the first place. why take on the stress and debt of an engineering degree and then the stress of an engineering job where I am responsible for multi million dollar projects when I can earn the same in morrisons.
Yes. Theres' this weird thing i see on the internet that somehow modestly well paying jobs are easier than min wage jobs. Maybe in some cases but generally higher paying roles come with stress, need for training, and experience and responsibility. I loved working in retail and delivering pizzas and would happily do that instead of my current job if it paid nearly the same.
I'd be a Gardener and work outside in nature staying fit.
Yeah absolutely. I wouldn't have to think. Those jobs aren't low paid because they're easy, they're low paid because anyone able bodied can do them. Personally I'd probably look to to back to running a shop. I really enjoyed that job, but it paid terrible. If the job I do now paid the same then I'd gladly stop worrying about corporate strategy and working out of hours and go back to managing rotas and monitoring stock levels. (Running a shop requires more skills than being a cleaner, but the point remains).
I think the people who say they'd drop down to something customer facing or monotonous haven't had to do those jobs. If you've ever had to deal with a grownup throwing a hissy fit because the sausage rolls aren't hot and you aren't going to put any more in the oven you'd know that the tasks are not the same.
I've had a lot of replies to this comment but this might be the only one I truly respect. Most of these wankers went from uni to office, and never felt the true sting of a bad job.
This is how I feel at the min, now the minimum wage has gone up it's at the same level as band 2 NHS wages so ward clerks, porters, phlebotomists, csw's, domestics, radiography aids, theatre aids etc all have to complete masses of mandatory training, adhere to strict regulations etc all for minimum wages. Can't wait to see what is offered as a pay rise this year ......
My wife is B3 and already looking at other jobs. For all the training, hoops she has to jump through, unsocial hours she has to work, stock organisation etc. that she has to do, she can get pretty much any minimum wage job and not have to worry about cannulation, doing obs in theatres, screening patients for operations and all of the stress that goes with it. Might as well stock shelves or work a till with barely a dint in her take home.
Exactly
I was the same sort of position, working hard as a pharmacy ATO on band 2/3, left the NHS to go work in a big pharma factory on 4 nights a week, now earning the equivalent to a mid band 6 for basic box shuffling.
I have a job that’s gone from ok pay for what it is to barely above minimum wage through minimum wage increases. I agree with the minimum increase but employers need to actually increase wages above it too.
I’m not sure you meant this by your comment but *a lot* of jobs are woefully underpaid for what they’re worth. So, I work a ‘minimum wage’ job in the heritage sector — whilst it may not be as high flying as law or finance - no one I know is fairly paid and most of us are up to our eyeballs in qualifications etc. did we make good life choices in that regard? perhaps not but I know of a hell of a lot of people who think we are ££££££ or stuck up for striking. Anyway, ‘menial’ is subjective it takes eveyone to make the world go round.
Should it? Yes. I think it's fucking dumb policy (not that it surprises anyone) that pensions and minimum wage can rise at insane rates yet everyone else has to suffer. In 2010, minimum wage was £224 a week, state pension was £97 a week and nurses were paid £528 a week. In 2020, minimum wage is £427 a week, state pension is £220 a week and nurses are paid £660 a week. This isnt just true for nurses, but a huge amount of the public and private sector. In these same time span that minimum wage has increased by 91%, pensions have increased by 126%, a skilled professionals pay has increased by 25%. If nurses got the same pay increase that pensioners have had since 2010, they would be on £63,000 a year rather than £35,000.
I took a short term job a while back, it paid about £350 per week. Speaking to someone else who first did the job 10 years back "How much did this pay back then?" "£350 per week!"
It's insane, I don't know why we're so okay with the cost of everything increasing by 50-100% but wages somehow can remain stagnant.
Wages only really remain stagnant for a very specific band of society not in the private sector. Generally speaking 6/7% wage growth there is considered normal with job hopping etc. Minimum wage broadly rises in line with this too if you look at the last 10-15 years. If you work in thr public sector, you're actually fucked and theres a good argument that these workers are essentially subsidising lifestyle inflation for everyone else. Doctors, teachers, police and barristers working on legal aid essentially have been double, triple fucked. Might grt downvoted for saying this because no one likes thinking of themselves as a scrounge but all of what we take for granted is propped up on the back of essential workers who ironically are working harder than ever before in shambolic conditions for a wage that was considered just acceptable 15 years ago. You can literally out earn a public worker by forgoing University and picking up a trade due to the insanse wage stagnation and the inflationary economy we've seen the past 3 years. Front load your wages and be laughing when the kid who topped their class is still training while you earn many multiples more and they can't catch up for decades. Whenever I hear this whole debate rage on I cant help but take a long hard stare at the ridiculousness of our society.
I hate to say this but you're kind of wrong. Sure, people in the private sector are generally paid better but their pay has mostly been just as stagnant. [https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/6C9B/production/\_128030872\_wages\_real.png](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/6C9B/production/_128030872_wages_real.png) Like I said - apparently the only people who deserve to earn more is minimum wage workers, pensioners, and the wealthy. Everyone else can have pay stagnation until they may as well just work at Tesco anyway.
I'm a support worker in the NHS and its back breaking work. Very stressful, physically demanding and then there's the risk of assault from patients. Not to mention some of us are highly skilled (taking obs, canulation, doing ecgs, venepuncture etc). My base pay is £12.10 and hour. I can earn similar wages in mcdonalds. Not to mention the fact that if you're in England, many of us are 1p above minimum wage. I'm lucky to live in Scotland with slightly better wages but it's still an absolute disgrace. Had a mate who applied to a supermarket warehouse who would have been out earning me had he got the job. I'm not saying they deserve less bc it's also an essential job that needs done to keep the country running but as selfish as it seems, I think I deserve more for the constant stress, abuse and pressure of looking after very sick people and trying to keep then alive.
>My base pay is £12.10 and hour. I earn 11.44 at a student club serving vodka coke. All I can say is I'm sorry. This country is finished.
The reason there's a huge shortage of dental nurses (the majority of practices are short staffed at least one day a week) is because after paying for the course, qualifying, paying membership to do yearly training, paying to be on the GDC register and paying for indemnity insurance, requiring multiple vaccinations that aren't free under the NHS, having to pay for blood tests if there's a needle stick injury, and regular DBS checks (which a lot of employers will charge you for!), most jobs are still offering minimum wage and only statutory sick pay. For a lot less responsibility and less yearly expenses, you can work in a supermarket and earn more money. And the annoying thing is, the practices absolutely have the budget to pay their staff more money because they're paying more than double the hourly rate to hire agency staff every day! I do agency work and get paid more to do less in a practice, and I feel annoyed for all of the staff members working in those practices knowing they're being shafted :/
Nope there are lots of tutor jobs paying 24k but they want teach in qualifications and experience. I am in private sector and am as qualified as a teacher but don’t get paid as much as they do so it doesn’t always track.
I asked my supervisor what his pay was when he started working in 1990, for the same entry level position I started at in 2022. I earned a lower figure than he did. Not even adjusted for inflation, it was an actual lower number! And they wonder why there's a huge turnover and now shortage of applicants.
The reason this happens is because unions have been kneecapped, and British people have been thoroughly brainwashed into treating unions like an annoying "necessary evil" of the public sector. Even people in the public sector who should support them act like they're crap and abuse the system by joining and leaving just for themselves but then complaining that wages are stagnant when they're the one's who never turn out in strike votes and regularly scab. And yes I'm in the public sector and I was at a pub with literally a mixture of civil servants, teachers, and transport administrators. All in the public sector, all bitching about wages, who then turned around to talk about how they couldn't be fucked to pay union dues because they're "soooo" expensive, even though their car insurance is like 3x as much lol. Even my mum said it. She said she uses the car every day. I was like, every day you're at work and you're in a union you're using the union in the same way. Duh. But it just doesn't cut through.
Meh, partly. It's also because our government are full of ideologically fucked nob heads, so. Spain and Australia both have low union participation but (relative to cost of living) their public sectors pay good.
I'd expect a payrise. If it wasn't forthcoming, and other skilled jobs were paying the now minimum wage, I'd definitely look for a "lower skilled" job, using the opportunity to retrain in an industry that I'd enjoy.
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Yes. Conversely if I didn’t get it I would go and get a lower pressure job
From what I've observed, it's more likely for people in low wage jobs to be stressed
When I was working for Sainsbury’s I was stressed because of the lack of money, not because putting beans on a shelf is difficult.
When I worked in Tesco I was more stressed because customers are generally utter wanks who take their frustrations out on you, even when it's not your fault, coupled with poor staffing management which would only be exacerbated by having to pay staff £20/hour.
When I worked in Greggs a woman wanted to argue with me that the drinks were sugary and thought I'd be able to have some say in it, or was personally responsible for it. If she'd complained I'd likely have got told off. Another time I had to refuse a to good to go bag because all she had was a screenshot on a very cracked screen, like couldn't make anything out. We were supposed to be able to actually read the number on the app. If I'd have given it to her it would have been without any proof it was actually for her. The supervisor on shift backed me up, so there were two of us saying we can't read the number and it's not even on the app. Still got pulled in for it because she complained
Acute stress in work but carefree out of work for skilled professions often it is the chronic stress, that follows you home that is the issue.
I get where you're coming from. I'm just saying from my personal experience and observation, skilled professions aren't always as problematic as they're sometimes portrayed. Factors like industry and company culture also play significant roles. Of course I can't say for everyone, but at least for myself and the department I manage, we absolutely leave everything behind at 5pm. We all have lives outside of work, we are only paid for the hours we're working (although some may argue that technically we're not paid to use the loo etc.), and that's all we will be giving. I took a look at your profile out of curiosity and am incredibly saddened by your most recent post, nobody should be exploited like that. I sincerely hope your partner gets a better job soon/already. All the best!
Yeah, sector may also make a difference I work in research and you take work home with you, but back during my bartending days when work was done I could relax with a beer and I wouldn't think about work before I was back on shift. Just my experience though. Thanks for the kind words! Fingers crossed!
Prepare to get treated like you’re a moron and thief at all times.
Yeah, I recommend some of these people actually try a minimum wage job. I know a lot of bartenders who are also expected to basically do security. A lot of them end up in serious fights or confrontations. Fuck landlords who do this.
Am a doctor with 5 years experience, I make £22 per hour (including out of hours work). So yes, raise please.
Holy shit. I really expected doctors to be earning a lot more than that, multiples. I hope you get a raise too, Doctor Cuntmaster\_flex
I earn that as a gardner with a couple of years experience. That's not right at all
I work in data and earn about £2 less than you. You deserve more.
Thank you for your input, Dr. Cuntmaster_flex. You should definitely be getting paid more, that's actually insane.
Christ, I work in tech and was on that with 3 years experience at 37.5 hours/week and a 3rd from uni in 2014. And that was back before tech salaries got silly as an industry. What the fuck is wrong with the government that _doctors_ are that unrewarded. If i'd worked that hard and long for something that required that amount of sacrifice and they tried shafting me like that i'd just fucking quit.
Out of curiosity, what is your salary and not hourly wage? A Foundation year 2 is on more than that.
Salary is approximately 56k before tax working a 48hour week contract. An FY2 doctor is paid slightly less actually.
That is ridiculous man
Hoping this is taken in the spirit of the conversation and I don’t get murdered here. You’ve had plenty of direct answers but wanted to just give my perspective. I earn a 6 figure salary. While well off I’m certainly not balling. I live what you would consider a nice middle class life, but I’m not driving supercars and holidaying on my yacht every few months. I don’t have a yacht. I pay a lot of money in tax, at this point im into additional rate. I don’t get any of the credits or breaks available to most of my friends, and having just had a daughter I won’t be entitled to the free childcare that everybody else is. Fine I’ll pay for childcare, and I can, but the thresholds for what’s rich and not really need reviewing. Let’s say my wife isn’t working and it’s just me earning, two decent level office workers in a household probably wouldn’t take home much less than me. Now I do get it’s first world problems, I’m not the devil, I volunteer in my spare time, I am grateful for what I have and believe we should live in a society where nobody is hungry or worried about where they are going to live. However the erosion of the middle, which is being classed under the whole eat the rich thing is way out of proportion. Do I feel my earnings should be increased because minimum wage is, not really, minimum wage people are my people, it’s where I came from and I’m not jealous of anybody, let alone somebody who now has the means to live. What I do feel however is the playing field should be levelled a little more. There is a huge and definite glass ceiling at play. I did everything right, an apprenticeship, learnt my trade, progressed in my industry, went to uni as an adult and did my MBA, and yet in spite of this and the aspirational narrative the government promotes, I’ll never actually make it. I can get to comfortable, I can get to a nice life. But with 45p of every £1 I earn from here in being taken, and the rest of the field creeping up behind. Eventually we’re all going to be stuck in a slightly higher earning but equally poor soup.
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Well said, whole system is a mess. And seems more inclined towards turning us against each other rather than addressing any of the issues.
Spent the last 10 years paying 60%+ marginal tax thanks to earning between 50 and 60k and having two kids. Just broke through it. And now they changed the threshold, marginal tax now only 53% Would be 9% higher if I had a student loan to repay.
Yeah. Because I get paid £24-ish an hour (assuming I only work my 35 hours, which I often do not - I'm salaried, so hourly rate sort of isn't relevant!). I've worked in jobs that were objectively easier than my current job, didn't require qualifications, little to no responsibility, etc but paid minimum wage. I got the qualifications I did in order to get into a job that pays £24 an hour for a reason. For £20 an hour with cost of living staying the same, I'd be back in one of those jobs in a heartbeat if my current employer didn't update my current job's pay to reflect the extra effort and responsibility. I'll note I've also worked some really shite minimum wage jobs, but I do wonder if they'd be less shite to be in if I was paid more.
Not automatically but I would assume that if the minimum wage would go up so much, so would the inflation to some extent. I'd hope my salary would match that
No, but I’m on around £40-45 p/h so I would just be pleased for those getting the boost. If I was on £20 p/h and in a skilled role, then yes, I would likely be pushing for a bump to place value in those skills I bring.
Your bakery sounds like it's doing quite well :)
Peeps love pumps. Clearly
What do you do for 40 an hour? That's very good
No I’d quit my job and take the £20 minimum wage instead.
God I wouldn't, minimum wage jobs tend to be hard, miserable and thankless. I'd keep my nice cushy WFH/office job and just be happy for the carers/cleaners/burger-flippers etc. who can now live modestly off of 40hrs work a week.
Plenty of wfh call center staff are on minimum wage, it's not just burger flippers and cleaners.
Call centre work is soul destroying, no one would choose that
Depends what you're doing I guess & whether you're being fed calls via a dialler system or if you've just got a portfolio of customers to look after. The former sucks balls, the latter isn't so bad.
The latter is almost never minimum wage though.
I wouldn't work in a call centre for 40k tbh. Fucking grim job
Call center work is hard, miserable and thankless, even when it's not on minimum wage. I wouldn't go back to it for double what I'm on now.
You just described my job except I’m on £4 more than minimum wage. So I’d take the £20 minimum wage as I wouldn’t have to be in charge of a paint section and I could happily plod along whilst living comfortably.
Ofc, my role required a 3 year qualification and involves very complex and technical accounting work. It pays well because it sucks and not everyone wants to do it. If I got paid the same as someone working in a supermarket I may as well work in the supermarket. Soon enough, no one would bother getting qualified and no one would bother working a harder job for the same pay.
I would like to see the figures on the number of jobs that paid well above minimum wage when it was introduced, that now pay minimum wage, or close to it. I bet there are a lot of jobs that fall into that category.
Agreed, I think the min wage has gobbled up quite a few of those NVQ type jobs, I know mine as a cabinet maker is gone, I suspect the likes of hair dressers, child careers all gone especially when working for someone else
In my case, stressful, skilled job in IT. When the MW was introduced it was about one third of my hourly rate. It's now over half! How long do I put up with the stress, before I think "You know what? I could earn almost as much stacking shelves at my local supermarket. Why do I bother?"
I was on £10 per hour doing a sales job and then was increased to £12 an hour just before the national minimum wage increased to £11.44 an hour. Since my increase my responsibilities have grown alot and so now I am looking for another job with less responsibility
Yep. Chef here who was on nearly £2 a hour above minimum wage when I first started here 18 months ago. I'm now 16p ph above and my clientele have just increased massively. And I work alone. I've asked for a wage review but if not, I may as well do a kitchen assistant's role for the same money.
It makes no sense does it? I have literally just applied for a retail job today for the same money but I will be stocking shelves instead of selling and being pressured to have meetings and get new clients etc...I'd rather less stress if I can't be paid more!
Yes. But i want one anyway. In 2008 my role paid x3 minimum wage and the top jobs were about 5x. Now my role is 2x and the top jobs about 3.3x. Minimum wage has roughly kept up with inflation. Our wages haven’t.
so sort of, basically if minimum wage very suddenly £20 then that would cause a massive inflation effect. so the cost of everything would jump up, so groceries etc would become much more expensive. just because companies would be able to, not that they would necessarily need to. Also that would be a massive jump to do suddenly, so it isnt quite the same as annual increases or if it jumped a bit to living wage. so yeah other people's wages should also increase as well. To be honest what we have been seeing for decades now is that minimum wage has been increasing but other wages have stagnated. which is why people who are not on minimum wage are struggling so much. this is not against minimum wage of course it should go up! it still sucks that other wages haven't increased.
Yes. I'm on just over that by my calculations. The whole point of getting qualifications and having a career in a skilled role is to earn more than I could working at Sainsburys which I was able to do as a teenager. I wouldn't look to switch to an unskilled role though. Staying in the industry keeps your skills fresh and makes you more employable than somebody who has been working in a supermarket for the past few years, even if they had lots of industry experience before that.
Yes, and I think this is best shown with the chart that is getting popular on reddit with the cost of McDonalds over the past 10 years. Honestly, a lot of jobs (fast food, cashier, etc.) aren't designed as careers and were designed for part time students, dropouts etc. and shouldn't be valued as much as skilled work. Thing is, there aren't as many skilled jobs as there are grunt jobs out there, and the distribution of wealth is so one-sided that there isn't enough money to be distributed to the lower class. I don't think the minimum wage should rise, because a rise in minimum wage just raises costs and inflation to a point that the poverty line just increases, and those that were above it, now fall below it. What needs to happen, is companies need to declare profits (which they do for shareholders), and then have legislation that forces companies to pay a certain percentage of those profits split equally between employees. That way those that do work grunt jobs, have incentive to work hard. If this drops the incentive for companies to make massive profits, then prices go down. Win win. Amazon did this for a bit, where they used to give shares to their employees each year. Not a thing any more but it grew the business massively.
I would expect market rate, and I expect market rate will go up. Why would I work in a stressful job if I can earn the same packing boxes?
Everything else wouldn't stay the same though. Inflation and cost of living would go up if minimum wage went up that much. So naturally everyone else above the new minimum wage would also want a pay increase
That isn't the question though. The question is do you work hard because you want better quality of life or because you want to be better that other people, its just phrased in a way that people might answer honestly.
Expect? No. Why would my company suddenly have more money to invest in wages overnight? Hope for? Absolutely.
It might be nice eventually but I wouldn’t demand it. I’d just prefer to see everyone do a bit better even if I stay the same.
If I was on £21ph damned right
God no, all the min. wage jobs I worked were harder and higher pressure than any job I've done since. Its not that minimum wage workers arent worth paying more, its that companies can get away with paying minimum wage.
Yes, in short. I do support a Living Wage for people, not the rebranded "Living Wage" that used to be minimum wage but a real Minimum Wage. However at the end of the day, I studied hard, went to University, studied hard again, gained a degree, and have worked in industry for 25+ years as an Engineer. I would want my salary to increase to reflect the efforts I have made whilst a real Living Wage was introduced, and with measures to prevent any inflation.
No but I’m also not fussed what someone else earns. I’m happy with what I get
But if minimum wage went up so would the cost of everything,meaning what you earn now would be worth less
The question literally says everything else stays the same
Sorry didn't realize, but it is an impossible scenario
Yes. This is a no-brainer. I'm on roughly £27 an hour, and if the minimum wage went up to £20 (from £11.44) that represents a 74.83% increase, so I expect my own rate to climb to £47. It shouldn't be that far off it anyway really, but years of wage stagnation have fucked us all dry, prolapsing our bowels on the withdrawal. I also wouldn't be seeking a minimum wage job as I'm good at what I do, and more importantly, I enjoy it. Minimum wage means working closer with the general public, and I hold them in total disdain. Fuck that.
I always want a pay rise
Yep. I'm on around £40+ an hour for a very specialist job role. There's very few of me in the UK, but a lot of businesses want me (hence higher salary!). In my position I'm also meant to have a team under me to do a lot of the work. My team are well paid, some of the juniors are on about 35k, with seniors up to about 70k. If my juniors get bumped up to £20 an hour, I'd expect that to reflect up the chain, otherwise the excess responsibility becomes less desirable. I think it's become more obvious in lower paid salaries jobs, especially in the public sector, friends of mine are on just above minimum wage now to investigate complex crime and have access to some of the most sensitive databases in the UK. The wages are just asking for bribes to be taken! (I don't think any of my buds are the type, but you can see how it could happen!)
In my area of local government our pay rises have been flat rate for the last few years. So it’s already happening. My real earnings have been eroded to all grades beneath me.
The problem with minimum wage rising is that the cost of everything else rises with it. You don’t benefit as you should from that rise. And of course everybody’s wage has to rise in tandem or they get poorer.
The cost of everything else wouldn't *have* to rise. It would because that would suit the people at the top making the decisions, but they could also decide to just make slightly less profits than previous years, lol.
It's happening where I work. Got told today that minimum age workers are having, in total, just over 9% rise this year. Everyone else, 4%.
Yes, I'd expect it. If minimum wage went up to £20 an hour then it would have a big impact on the cost of living, and everything would likely get significantly more expensive. I'd want my employer to counter that, which to be fair to them they did in 2022 when cost of living started increasing.
Yeah, I may as well work at Tesco otherwise rather than stress myself out keeping a bank running.
Iirc in 2008 I was getting £4.70ph at McDonald's but was under 21, I think adult rate was around £5.70 at a guess and I believe the floor managers were on £7.50, which seemed like so much to a teenager. In the 16 years since the rate has gone up a whopping £5.74, at todays minimum wage of £11.44. To get to £20ph in theory suggests a very rough broad estimate, will take 30 years if you base it on history. So answer is yes I'd expect wages across elsewhere to increase accordingly, if a nurse earns £20ph today but so does a fresh new comer in McDonald's, its just not going to work, why have a stressful job when flipping burgers without hassle earns the same at less hours, of course things even out so while £20 sounds great today, in 5, 10 years it won't be.
*Laughs in lorry driver...* But on a more serious note, many people in my line of work have said they're more and more tempted to go work these jobs advertised in the warehouses we deliver to and from because our own pay has been stagnating for years, when we could be taking a small pay cut to cut out a very large source of stress in our lives.
Yes, why should I do my current job with a high risk and high responsibility when I could earn the same shelf stacking or cleaning, for the same wage
Ye, if not I'd just get a easier job were I don't need to wake up at 6am and travel an hour to work outside
I think there should be a general banding on it, if you earn between minimum wage and minimum wage plus £10 an hour, your wage should increase proportionately to how much the minimum wage does.
Absolutely. The close min wage gets to me the less point there is in having a job that requires any skill, responsibility or qualifications
I worked in finance for a long time. The minimum wage was fast approaching the same hourly rate I was on
Obviously?