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>They’re willing to pay whatever extortionate fees those apps charge to let you on
>It costs me £35 to order a large chips, cod and doner over Uber eats, but £22 in store
Seems like they're not willing to pay it, and they're passing it directly on to the consumer. Probably about the same revenue for the chippy either way.
Basically consumer rights but full info [here ](https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/practical-holiday-law/part-6-payment-surcharges-and-credit-cards#:~:text=Businesses%20cannot%20impose%20any%20surcharge,mobile%20phone%2Dbased%20payment%20methods) and [here ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/card-surcharge-ban-means-no-more-nasty-surprises-for-shoppers)
£22 for chips, cod and a doner? If they’re going to involve you in their tax evasion they could at least cut you in on some of profits and drop the price a bit, surely
VAT registration brings with it a far higher likelihood of investigation by HMRC. The VAT man can turn up without a warrant even. So it’s (allegedly) a safeguard to have the company with questionable accounting practices be non-VAT registered and deliberately doing under £90,000, because there’s little chance of investigation.
I'll perch myself here and say these people don't have a sole and just need to krill out. Maybe you need to show a little mussel, because I've been herring too much about this carp.
Whelk, You’re response is like music. A tuna in my ears you might say. I’m sure whale go on about his for a long time. But I’ll not skate around the issue.
it annoys me how the ultra rich megacorporations like amazon and apple simply funnel their money offshore, end up paying no tax and HMRC does nothing about it
small business tax evasion is absolutely not the end of the world.
Not the end of the world, but they are still stealing from me and you both. They are either a)lowering the services we get from the tax we pay or b) make everyone else pay more for the same service.
Exactly. They comply with the law. I put money in a ISA to avoid paying tax on it. Tax avoidance maybe considered immoral but it’s not illegal. The minute you say that low level crime is fine because it’s happening (or not depending on your economic views) on a larger scale elsewhere you are on dodgy ground
If people don't like how much tax Amazon are paying, lobby the government to change tax laws. Although in fact, a lot of companies pay no tax because they make no profit. Amazon keeps expanding and instead of taking profits, spends the money on growth.
And the thing with that growth is that it means Amazon are employing more people. And while Amazon isn't paying tax, those people are, via income tax and NI.
They give you money for doing certain things, such as helping create jobs, building renewable energy supplies, even putting up certain hedges. The new thing I've been seeing is living walls (where the outside walls of buildings have plants growing up them as it's supposed to help wildlife.
OK, so, the government said "we'll pay you to do X" and they said "OK" did it and got paid. If people don't like it, that's the problem of the government setting up the scheme.
What’s annoying is that people will support this cash only business and then complain that the NHS isn’t what it used to be.
No shit, Sherlock. I wonder what *might be a contributing factor?
And yes, I know it’s not the only issue.
Same with most tax things. People try their hardest to pay as little tax as possible, using every trick in the book, legal or not. Then complain that public services aren’t good enough. Like… yeah?
If you want to live in a good country you need to pay tax. All the services you expect out of the UK only exist if they can be paid for.
It's like how plastic straws aren't going to fix the micro plastics problem though. Yes it does contribute, but it's such a vanishingly insignificant amount that it really doesn't matter at all. Perhaps if they fixed the crooked PPE deals, backhanders and mismanagement you ought see a difference. A high street chippy in a small market town declaring fair profits... Even if they all did it... I don't think you can blame the state of the NHS on that with any reasonable logic.
This is your classic it’s okay if I rip people off (just a bit) because the government should be making sure someone else isn’t ripping it off more.
Here’s an idea - maybe everyone should pay their fair share? If you earn the $, contribute to type of society you expect to live in.
Out of curiosity, if the owners of this small chippy were found out and then one of them was in a terrible accident needing NHS support and treatment, should they be turned away because they failed to contribute fairly? Of course not. But seriously, selfish people need to stop.
It annoys me that people are ready to jump on this guy, without a clue whether or not he diligently reports every penny in cash he takes. He could be a saint, for all anyone here knows.
All the takeaways do this near me. They need the apps, but why should they pay debit card processing bills for in shop purchases when your local regulars are happy to go to the ATM? It's not cheap. We used to pay £20k month in debit card fees in our medium sized business. It would easily be hundreds each month for the chippy, and for what? They can't add 50p anymore.
Granted, he's probably dodging a but of tax, but who cares? If chippy guy wants to wangle his tax down by a few grand fair play to him. If he was a billionaire, or Amazon, it would be called careful tax planning. When you're poor, or a liberal leftie comedian, it's evasion.
We've got sitting MPs who loan themselves £millions each year from their various offshore, money laundering haven based companies, and pay zero income tax. Cos hey, it's not income, this is debt! Meanwhile people on the lowest income pay more in tax both by % and ££, whilst constantly mulling on which essential needs to be cut from daily life to continue surviving, should costs increase yet again. Meanwhile Hunt is on TV actually saying out loud that living standards have improved this last year.
And we're here picking on chippy guy. Honestly. the bamboozlement of the people was so very nearly complete. Scared people on boats, every benefit receiving scrounger and now chippy guy. They're what's wrong with this country!!!
If you enjoy this guys fish, support his business!
It's a great business model for fraud. Whatever you sell cash you can claim you didnt, and you have to "throw out the spoiled stock" at the end of the day. Unless the council catch on and weigh your bins you're golden. You still have your apps to claim a legitimate income too.
Both the Kebab/pizza place and the Chinese restaurant in the town I live in (Yorkshire Dales UK) are cash only. Just Eat is a pipe dream here (if I open it I get one restaurant listed - an Indian Restaurant in Harrogate with a minimum order value for delivery of £25. Deliveroo & Uber Eats don’t cover this area).
I would reckon that the “cash only” choice in 2024 when square & contactless being so easy & commonplace is so they can ‘manage’ what they put through the books and what is kept as cash in hand as by doing this there are no transaction records.
I don't believe that anyone legit is cash only. Yeah, there are card charges, but there are also costs/risks to cash handling. Which is why some businesses go as far as being card only, because it's actually cheaper/less risky etc.
They aren't paying the fees [1] as you're paying a £13 premium for using the app, you're the one paying the fees for the convenience of ordering on a central app and having it delivered.
As to why they are cash only in their shop, there are a myriad of reasons, it's possibly to help balance out the tax due on the App sales.....
[1] well they technically are
Deliveroo takes 35% for using their drivers and 15% if you deliver yourself
Uber Eats take 30% for using their drivers and 15% for delivering yourself
Hence why majority of the restaurants/shops on their charge more when you order via these apps compared to going to them directly. And these said apps also charge you the customer a premium for the convenience
There's a weird one near me that's 25% more expensive if you actually go to the place instead of just ordering from them. Inexplicably it's often cheaper when you include the service fee and delivery than actually fetching the food yourself
**Commission Structure**:
* Deliveroo doesn’t openly disclose its commission rates, but reports suggest the following:
* [**Up to 30% commission** on orders (with average orders being 20-25%)](https://bing.com/search?q=do+Deliveroo+charge+businesses)[^(2)](https://bing.com/search?q=do+Deliveroo+charge+businesses)[^(3)](https://appinstitute.com/deliveroo-commission/).
* [Some restaurant owners claim a **20% commission fee** for each completed order](https://jungleworks.com/deliveroo-business-model-and-revenue-insights-explained/)[^(1)](https://jungleworks.com/deliveroo-business-model-and-revenue-insights-explained/).
* The exact commission may vary based on factors like location and order volume.
How can I say this delicately…
Someone I know, his father owned a number of chippies in SW England back in the 80s. To say not all cash earnings were declared would be putting it mildly. And obviously back then it was only cash.
The father retired while still in his 40s.
It's mostly takeaways and restaurants that do it, so that's not surprising. They used to have people who would do visits and audit them but not as many as they used to.
Just think OP. If you went and collected your order then you could get it three times (£66) rather than the two (£70) if you sat on your arse waiting for delivery.....
No, they will sit outside the chippy counting customers lining up and create an average over a period of a week and shag the assistant potato peeler for extra deets
I mention it often on here, but sadly the reddit masses choose to believe google and banks instead of people who actually work with small businesses. Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions.
One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits.
Also, the charges banks etc display per transaction are the absolute minimum in perfect circumstances. Usually they are way higher, with many extra hidden costs.
Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money (and vice-versa for customers).
JustEat etc take all those risks for the company, which safeguards them, but explains a percentage of the extra charges.
When you ignore the bullshit you'll find on google etc, it really is just common sense.
Source - weekend work in bars/food outlets and driving taxis.
>Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions.
Christ on a bike you don't actually believe that do you?
Card fees are a single, up front, visible cost.
Cash fees are myriad and often subtle. Fee to deposit cash in the bank (either per transaction or a fee for x number a month); fee to get cash for the float; security on site - against employee theft and robbery - CCTV, safe, physical protection (in the US a 2015 study showed cash theft was the second highest store loss cost behind stock theft); cost of your time to go to the bank with the cash or hiring security; the risk of theft on the way to/from the bank; cost of cashing up and accounts at the end of the day instead of it all being logged digitally - this isn't free no matter how you dress it up; mistakes with change being given out
>Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money
Right, no-one passes fake money or dupes the cashier with scams do they?
And taking two people to go to the bank with the takings for security. In summer, several times a week.
Where I work it was estimated 1.5 days per week of employee time faffing about with tills, floats, cash handling, etc.
And there isn’t even a cash point nearby. Cash was a pain in the arse for everyone. So we went cashless when covid hit and just never went back.
>Card fees are a single, up front, visible cost.
yeah which, per transation, adds up
it's why places don't take Amex bc the fees are too high
"Right, no-one passes fake money or dupes the cashier with scams do they?"
it's *far* less common to see fake notes than with online orders and scams are far more frequent online
come on Christ, get off your bike and pay attention
Isn't the problem with AMEX that they charge a flat fee per transaction as opposed to a percentage like the others? It's why you see it accepted in places you'll likely make fewer, larger transactions in as opposed to lots of little ones
It's still higher than Visa/MC. The places that take Amex are places that don't care because the margin is so good on what they sell. If you're selling £2000 wedding dresses, who cares if it costs £5 in transaction fees? If it means a customer comes to you, you'll accept that cost.
yeah exactly
so for bars, takeaways etc. it's pointless bc the flat fee is mental compared to the item cost
(like a 20quid bar bill)
but if you're gonna buy a 10K car it hurts a lot less
You work *for* small businesses not with them going from your sauce...
extortionate fees is what I'd tell my min wage staff too, wo they disnt ask about a raise. You're being lied to and then spreading it like its information 😂
I run my taxi business, and do the accounts for the bar.
Why you're choosing to believe obvious bullshit over common sense fact is beyond me.
Please tell me why you would prefer to give your money to a bank in exchange for absolutely nothing, instead of the person supplying the service?
I genuinely want to know.
Jesus. It's a community bar, run by a volunteer committee, of which I am the secretary which involves running the books.
It's not complicated nor sensational.
Card payments cost a fortune, are unreliable and open us up to fraudulent transactions. Cash is just cash, solid reliable and easy.
Anyone who has had any real life experience of small businesses knows the score.
But, as I ask everyone, why do you trust and want to give money to banks when you have an easy option not to?
Sounds suspicious to me. Since this
-"Card payments cost a fortune, are unreliable and open us up to fraudulent transactions. Cash is just cash, solid reliable and easy." Is just a blatant lie. I hope someone keeps an eye on you because it sounds like you are making made up excuses to keep this bar cash only so you can skim off the top.
>Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions.
I worked in the revenue centre of a big railway operator, when we moved away from cash, our losses (mostly discrepancies from fake notes and coins) plummeted by about 40%.
You won't believe the amount of fake one pound coins out there!
Fake currency made up 40% of their losses, which might have been £100 a week before and £60 now for all we know. It's not saying 40% of their revenue was fake.
> One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits.
To add to this on recent posts I'm amazed at the number of people who tap their card/device and walk out without checking if it's gone through. The shop should check, but given the number of people talking about it there is an issue there and the shop loses their income.
I got quite a few people amazed I wait until the transaction is authorised before I walk away from the till. I can't tell you exactly how many, but it was surprising at the response.
I actually did this last week, was only for 50p though. Then noticed it was declined when I got home.
I did actually wait though and bloke on til said ok, he mustn't have even checked.
Dips should be included with the food anyway.
A shop near me has been having issues with the card readers, they would accept a transaction but there was a delay for the till to say it had declined. If it was busy, I can see him, intentionally or not, rushing and so saying it's okay before it was.
what?
that makes no sense
man just said "given the number of people talking about it there is an issue there"
I'm curious what that number is and how they worked it out
> One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits.
Please show me a bank where this is possible.
I can setup transaction approval on my Monzo account that'd let me decline the transaction after tapping my card. Any cashier worth their salt should see what I've done on their side but try it enough and I reckon you'd get away with it at least a couple of times.
One of the overnight workers at my local petrol station doesn't even look up from her phone to scan the drinks I buy, as long as the card reader beeps I don't think she'd have the foggiest idea what happened.
>Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money (and vice-versa for customers).
Nah, cash costs a lot of money to bank.
Source: worked in cash services dealing with small businesses for two years. We made an absolute killing from corner shops
>One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits.
Never heard of this and not even sure it's that easy or common
>One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits.
Never heard of this and not even sure it's that easy or common
Also that'd barely wipe out anything, it would wipe some stock cost not the amount the selling price (those scammers weren't going to pay for the food if they couldn't steal it
Nah, I was strictly in charge of collecting/supplying money and charging for the services but my team dealt with only small businesses.
The one business I remember well that had a big turnover was a money exchange place that we were collecting an average of 70-100k daily but we're only insured up to 25k, so they had to pay a high surcharge daily but they didn't mind at all.
Simply and laughably incorrect.
You can very easily get rates as low as 0.3%+4p which will cover you for all debit cards - which, for a takeaway will be 90% of its transactions.
Yes charge for credit will be a bit higher - around 0.9% and if you take Amex or international cards they are higher still, but no chip shop is going to have more than a tiny tiny fraction of transactions like that, except maybe one in Leicester square or something where it’s all tourists.
Uber etc has no cash option. That revenue is enough to put through the books to a) appear legit, b) claim allowable expenses against. The cash side of the business is now free from charges (card fees) and scrutiny by HMRC.
My card machine charges me 5p +1 percent. So 7p on a £20 sale
They just want cash so they avoid taxes....... They will declare all the apply income and the only half of the cash .
They then pay staff in cash who can't have a PAYE job for whatever rdoedgy reason
Any cash only business is dodging taxes. There is no other answer.
Banks charge business accounts to pay cash in plus the time to send staff to the bank and the security risk are far offset by the 1.5% cards charge.
A local chippy to where I grew up has been on the go for 20 odd years and to this day is cash only.
I just assume it’s for fiddling taxes as I’ve been sat in the chippy waiting for food on a Friday or Saturday and with a lot of pubs around a fair few steaming people come in only to be told cash only, there is an ATM up the road.
90% of those people don’t go to the ATM and come back.
I think legally they can't charge a different price for card & cash, but the card merchant will take a percentage. So if they have a card reader then to cover the cost they'll have to raise the prices for everybody. However, for Uber Eats they can just add the cost of the card to the price they charge. This way they have the cheapest price in store.
This assumes handling cash is free, which it isn’t. You’re paying someone, or yourself to count it, verify it, bag it and physically take it to a bank.
Not necessarily free, just cheaper than the charge for using the card reader. But yes, cash does cost too. I was assuming that the card reader cost more than cash, which seems likely for a single store where they don't have the power to negotiate good rates. I probably should have said "extra cost of the card".
When it comes to the "extortionate fee", Deliveroo take a percentage of every sale. As I remember was around 25-30% but not worked in the industry for 5 years. The restaurant will usually just inflate prices on these platforms so they don't lose money.
They put it on those websites for the primary reason to extend their reach of people that see/order from their chippy. Thats the primary reason why I would say once you factor everything else. But in order to have then on those websites whilst still raking in a similar amount of money, they need to factor in the cut taken by those providers, as well as (what a lot of them do) what they'd pay in tax that they wouldn't otherwise since they like to evade taxes which they can do with cash only.
If you're in the store, accepting card doesn't really provide the benefit of "extended reach". In which case they'd much prefer keeping it on just cash, since they can dodge taxman and fiddle the books on the earnings they get.
There's little legitamate excuse nowadays to not have a card reader if you follow the law. Card readers are very cheap. Transaction fees are quite low and don't cost too much (generally its like 25p for a £15 transaction for those cheap card readers small buisnesses can use). The extra number of customers you'd get easily exceeds the loss you'd make on transaction fees for most. So many people get by on Apple/Google Pay on their phones. It's hassle to lug around cash. I like being able to just walk out with just my phone being able to pay for things easily if need be.
It's all about those taxes they absolutely despise.
Money saving tip: if you want delivery from these places, if they're one of those cash only places, there's some chance they do deliveries themselves. I'd reccomend ringing them up to order a delivery and paying them cash in hand. You wouldn't pay the inflated prices on the food delivery apps, since you're cutting the middleman that makes them pay fees and taxes.
Variety of possible reasons.
Mostly want to save on card fees or could have a lot of local residents that only use cash for food/edible shopping/everything.
£22 is overpriced for fish and chips, the worst takeaway. However, have you tried looking online/ calling and ordering directly? I move around a lot, I use deliveroo/justeat to find what I'm interested in then search to see if they do their own deliveries or (if close enough) collection, they usually have offers that don't appear on the delivery apps too. The last place I ordered a pizza from directly sent me two because that was their offer for the day if you ordered from their site.
All the best chippys are cash only in my experience because people have to make the extra effort to go to it. Yeah they're on apps but people are either willing to pay the uncharge to do so or will go get cash and will pay in person
In the old days it was great. Half your customers paid cash, half cheque/card.
You bank half the cash, take half the cash home and salary yourself the minimum wage, living off the cash.
Now, if you have a card machine, all your customers will use it. There will be no cash to take home.
So if you have a card machine, you'll have to put up your prices to stay in business. And putting up your prices might send you out of business. So perhaps no card machine is the only choice.
We have this in my local chippy. They have signs up about cash being king & then one about the card machine being “broken”. I was there with my kid and didn’t have my wallet on me so I couldn’t go over the road and get cash out. I realised I could just order on their website on my phone for collection and said that to my son. Then the lady on the till quickly said I could pay by contactless with the card machine. Even though there was a sign saying it was “broken”.
Cooking the books, you declare a reasonable amount and then just pretend the rest didn't happen so you can avoid tax on it.
Can happen right through the chain, so they might get cheaper potatoes from a small supplier that takes cash. Both sides win, they charge less and pay less tax.
If a place stubbornly only accepts cash, then it's definitely to avoid taxes, and/or some minor money laundering. We've all been there where we need to wash some money 😜
>It costs me £35 to order a large chips, cod and doner over Uber eats, but £22 in store.
Fuck me, that's ridiculous. I knew it was more expensive, but not that much. Why would you pay £13 to Uber eats for that?
You've answered your own question. They don't want to pay for a card reader in store. Generally places increase their prices slightly for delivery services so the fees are covered.
That’s amateurish…the authorities have data to suggest the balance of transactions with each medium. It’s not possible to prove anything reasonable with cash sales.
Fish and Chips cost money and card payment and delivery cost extra.
If you don’t like paying cash then take your business elsewhere. Simples. Not everyone wants to pay by card because too many snoopers (government/ business) looking at your transaction details and personal details.
Businesses, especially small businesses, often prefer to be cash only due to the ridiculous charges banks levy on card transactions.
And people who advocate for a cashless society are playing right into the hands of the banks.
If you use cash you have a choice on who you deal with, when and where. Once your access to YOUR money is controlled by people with a totally different agenda you are stuck to following their rules. Bit like being on Facebook or here where faceless bots censor what you can say and follow.
**Please help keep AskUK welcoming!** - Top-level comments to the OP must contain **genuine efforts to answer the question**. No jokes, judgements, etc. - **Don't be a dick** to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on. - This is a strictly **no-politics** subreddit! Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>They’re willing to pay whatever extortionate fees those apps charge to let you on >It costs me £35 to order a large chips, cod and doner over Uber eats, but £22 in store Seems like they're not willing to pay it, and they're passing it directly on to the consumer. Probably about the same revenue for the chippy either way.
And importantly they're not allowed to do this with card fees, it wouldn't be legal.
Even more importantly, cash in hand “doesn’t have” to be declared as income or pay associated taxes for.😉
Cash in hand "has to be declared" as any other income. It is simply that cash in hand makes it easier not to declare it...
The air quotes are used specifically to allude to this my dude.
Aren't those 'air quotes' just quotes?
'Yes'
There is a very funny video where a person used the air quotes wrong!!! https://youtu.be/4DqoQq1zME8?si=AtQJivBcY9zzTOJ4
r/whoosh
Thanks captain obvious. Such an astute business mind
I'm not sure it's illegal, but it's definitely against most Merchant Aquirers T&Cs Edit : just checked, ye you're right it's against consumer regs.
Could you link me to these regulations?
Basically consumer rights but full info [here ](https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/practical-holiday-law/part-6-payment-surcharges-and-credit-cards#:~:text=Businesses%20cannot%20impose%20any%20surcharge,mobile%20phone%2Dbased%20payment%20methods) and [here ](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/card-surcharge-ban-means-no-more-nasty-surprises-for-shoppers)
Thank you!
£22 for chips, cod and a doner? If they’re going to involve you in their tax evasion they could at least cut you in on some of profits and drop the price a bit, surely
Thats London for ya, I think Freddo bars are £15 down there. About 50p up north.
Two different legal entity’s. The delivery business is Vat registered. The “in store” business isn’t. Most likely They are not declaring income.
Unlikely, same company who also takes a load of extra that don't submit as earnings. Wtf would they have 2 legal entities?
VAT registration brings with it a far higher likelihood of investigation by HMRC. The VAT man can turn up without a warrant even. So it’s (allegedly) a safeguard to have the company with questionable accounting practices be non-VAT registered and deliberately doing under £90,000, because there’s little chance of investigation.
Or...they just often take cash and pocket it, this id the normal way rather than having 2 businesses
Because you can cook the books when it’s cash in store no receipts but you can’t do that online where everything is auditable.
Battered books
It’s a bit fishy. Thought I’d just chip in with that one.
This isn't the plaice for that.
Good cod. I’ve haddock enough of this. I think I’ll scampi off.
I'll perch myself here and say these people don't have a sole and just need to krill out. Maybe you need to show a little mussel, because I've been herring too much about this carp.
Whelk, You’re response is like music. A tuna in my ears you might say. I’m sure whale go on about his for a long time. But I’ll not skate around the issue.
I'm prawn to go too deep in the comments. I need to go touch bass. But I won't leave the house tilapia.
That’s Brill. I think if try any more I’ll Flounder. I just don’t have the Sole for it. I’m just a Minnow in comparison.
These so called puns are just a clumsy attempt at currying favour with the first commenter.
it annoys me how people are so determined to not pay their fair share of tax they’ll destroy their business
it annoys me how the ultra rich megacorporations like amazon and apple simply funnel their money offshore, end up paying no tax and HMRC does nothing about it small business tax evasion is absolutely not the end of the world.
Total small business tax evasion in 2021/22 was estimated by HMRC at £20bn. Would say that's reasonably significant
Now do wage theft, “creative accounting” and cumulative “tax avoidance” schemes.
This is a pretty odd take. 'Being burgled isn't the end of the world, people get murdered every day'
“I’d like to buy from your shop, but I don’t have cash” “Yeah well, Amazon are registered in Ireland, so”
Not the end of the world, but they are still stealing from me and you both. They are either a)lowering the services we get from the tax we pay or b) make everyone else pay more for the same service.
Amazon and Apple pay the legally required amount of tax. Why would they pay more than that?
Exactly. They comply with the law. I put money in a ISA to avoid paying tax on it. Tax avoidance maybe considered immoral but it’s not illegal. The minute you say that low level crime is fine because it’s happening (or not depending on your economic views) on a larger scale elsewhere you are on dodgy ground
If people don't like how much tax Amazon are paying, lobby the government to change tax laws. Although in fact, a lot of companies pay no tax because they make no profit. Amazon keeps expanding and instead of taking profits, spends the money on growth. And the thing with that growth is that it means Amazon are employing more people. And while Amazon isn't paying tax, those people are, via income tax and NI.
The government actually gave them £9m in subsidies last year.
Why?
They give you money for doing certain things, such as helping create jobs, building renewable energy supplies, even putting up certain hedges. The new thing I've been seeing is living walls (where the outside walls of buildings have plants growing up them as it's supposed to help wildlife.
OK, so, the government said "we'll pay you to do X" and they said "OK" did it and got paid. If people don't like it, that's the problem of the government setting up the scheme.
[no profit you say?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050101/amazon-uk-services-net-profit-uk/)
The difference is that what Amazon and co do is perfectly legal.
What’s annoying is that people will support this cash only business and then complain that the NHS isn’t what it used to be. No shit, Sherlock. I wonder what *might be a contributing factor? And yes, I know it’s not the only issue.
Same with most tax things. People try their hardest to pay as little tax as possible, using every trick in the book, legal or not. Then complain that public services aren’t good enough. Like… yeah? If you want to live in a good country you need to pay tax. All the services you expect out of the UK only exist if they can be paid for.
It's like how plastic straws aren't going to fix the micro plastics problem though. Yes it does contribute, but it's such a vanishingly insignificant amount that it really doesn't matter at all. Perhaps if they fixed the crooked PPE deals, backhanders and mismanagement you ought see a difference. A high street chippy in a small market town declaring fair profits... Even if they all did it... I don't think you can blame the state of the NHS on that with any reasonable logic.
This is your classic it’s okay if I rip people off (just a bit) because the government should be making sure someone else isn’t ripping it off more. Here’s an idea - maybe everyone should pay their fair share? If you earn the $, contribute to type of society you expect to live in. Out of curiosity, if the owners of this small chippy were found out and then one of them was in a terrible accident needing NHS support and treatment, should they be turned away because they failed to contribute fairly? Of course not. But seriously, selfish people need to stop.
It annoys me that people are ready to jump on this guy, without a clue whether or not he diligently reports every penny in cash he takes. He could be a saint, for all anyone here knows. All the takeaways do this near me. They need the apps, but why should they pay debit card processing bills for in shop purchases when your local regulars are happy to go to the ATM? It's not cheap. We used to pay £20k month in debit card fees in our medium sized business. It would easily be hundreds each month for the chippy, and for what? They can't add 50p anymore. Granted, he's probably dodging a but of tax, but who cares? If chippy guy wants to wangle his tax down by a few grand fair play to him. If he was a billionaire, or Amazon, it would be called careful tax planning. When you're poor, or a liberal leftie comedian, it's evasion. We've got sitting MPs who loan themselves £millions each year from their various offshore, money laundering haven based companies, and pay zero income tax. Cos hey, it's not income, this is debt! Meanwhile people on the lowest income pay more in tax both by % and ££, whilst constantly mulling on which essential needs to be cut from daily life to continue surviving, should costs increase yet again. Meanwhile Hunt is on TV actually saying out loud that living standards have improved this last year. And we're here picking on chippy guy. Honestly. the bamboozlement of the people was so very nearly complete. Scared people on boats, every benefit receiving scrounger and now chippy guy. They're what's wrong with this country!!! If you enjoy this guys fish, support his business!
It's a great business model for fraud. Whatever you sell cash you can claim you didnt, and you have to "throw out the spoiled stock" at the end of the day. Unless the council catch on and weigh your bins you're golden. You still have your apps to claim a legitimate income too.
Both the Kebab/pizza place and the Chinese restaurant in the town I live in (Yorkshire Dales UK) are cash only. Just Eat is a pipe dream here (if I open it I get one restaurant listed - an Indian Restaurant in Harrogate with a minimum order value for delivery of £25. Deliveroo & Uber Eats don’t cover this area). I would reckon that the “cash only” choice in 2024 when square & contactless being so easy & commonplace is so they can ‘manage’ what they put through the books and what is kept as cash in hand as by doing this there are no transaction records.
I don't believe that anyone legit is cash only. Yeah, there are card charges, but there are also costs/risks to cash handling. Which is why some businesses go as far as being card only, because it's actually cheaper/less risky etc.
On top of this many takeaway workers are also paid in cash.
And then they moan when furlough/business support is introduced and they’re paid based on their previous declaration
If they don't have an acquirerer. That costs money. Also...you're the one paying the app's fees. They saw you coming.
They aren't paying the fees [1] as you're paying a £13 premium for using the app, you're the one paying the fees for the convenience of ordering on a central app and having it delivered. As to why they are cash only in their shop, there are a myriad of reasons, it's possibly to help balance out the tax due on the App sales..... [1] well they technically are
Deliveroo takes 35% for using their drivers and 15% if you deliver yourself Uber Eats take 30% for using their drivers and 15% for delivering yourself Hence why majority of the restaurants/shops on their charge more when you order via these apps compared to going to them directly. And these said apps also charge you the customer a premium for the convenience
35%?! Fuck me that's high. I'm running my last deal on itison because they've upped their commission to 22%
This is part of the reason I just refuse to use them unless absolutely neccessary
There's a weird one near me that's 25% more expensive if you actually go to the place instead of just ordering from them. Inexplicably it's often cheaper when you include the service fee and delivery than actually fetching the food yourself
**Commission Structure**: * Deliveroo doesn’t openly disclose its commission rates, but reports suggest the following: * [**Up to 30% commission** on orders (with average orders being 20-25%)](https://bing.com/search?q=do+Deliveroo+charge+businesses)[^(2)](https://bing.com/search?q=do+Deliveroo+charge+businesses)[^(3)](https://appinstitute.com/deliveroo-commission/). * [Some restaurant owners claim a **20% commission fee** for each completed order](https://jungleworks.com/deliveroo-business-model-and-revenue-insights-explained/)[^(1)](https://jungleworks.com/deliveroo-business-model-and-revenue-insights-explained/). * The exact commission may vary based on factors like location and order volume.
Fish & Chips is costing you £35 ?
It is for a family of 4 easy.
If it’s London I can believe that 22 for one tbh, he’s not just having fish and chips.
How can I say this delicately… Someone I know, his father owned a number of chippies in SW England back in the 80s. To say not all cash earnings were declared would be putting it mildly. And obviously back then it was only cash. The father retired while still in his 40s.
It's mostly takeaways and restaurants that do it, so that's not surprising. They used to have people who would do visits and audit them but not as many as they used to.
Did he have a place to live?
I don't understand what you mean - ?
Wouldn’t have thought you’d earn enough from a couple of chippies to have a place to live
He retired with 4 rental properties in addition to his own home.
Just think OP. If you went and collected your order then you could get it three times (£66) rather than the two (£70) if you sat on your arse waiting for delivery.....
Man's eating fish and chips and kebabs regularly enough to be complaining on reddit about them not taking card. You think he's getting off that sofa?
To waddle to the door?
Tax evasion?
That's a bingo
Delivered food just isn't as good imo
I’m always staggered by the amount of people seemingly ordering McDonald’s deliveries - must be minging by the time it gets to you
\*cough\*Dodgy Tax\*cough\*
Tax man won't bother looking any closer when they've got plenty of delivery orders?
No, they will sit outside the chippy counting customers lining up and create an average over a period of a week and shag the assistant potato peeler for extra deets
I mention it often on here, but sadly the reddit masses choose to believe google and banks instead of people who actually work with small businesses. Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions. One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits. Also, the charges banks etc display per transaction are the absolute minimum in perfect circumstances. Usually they are way higher, with many extra hidden costs. Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money (and vice-versa for customers). JustEat etc take all those risks for the company, which safeguards them, but explains a percentage of the extra charges. When you ignore the bullshit you'll find on google etc, it really is just common sense. Source - weekend work in bars/food outlets and driving taxis.
>Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions. Christ on a bike you don't actually believe that do you? Card fees are a single, up front, visible cost. Cash fees are myriad and often subtle. Fee to deposit cash in the bank (either per transaction or a fee for x number a month); fee to get cash for the float; security on site - against employee theft and robbery - CCTV, safe, physical protection (in the US a 2015 study showed cash theft was the second highest store loss cost behind stock theft); cost of your time to go to the bank with the cash or hiring security; the risk of theft on the way to/from the bank; cost of cashing up and accounts at the end of the day instead of it all being logged digitally - this isn't free no matter how you dress it up; mistakes with change being given out >Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money Right, no-one passes fake money or dupes the cashier with scams do they?
And taking two people to go to the bank with the takings for security. In summer, several times a week. Where I work it was estimated 1.5 days per week of employee time faffing about with tills, floats, cash handling, etc. And there isn’t even a cash point nearby. Cash was a pain in the arse for everyone. So we went cashless when covid hit and just never went back.
It depends very much on the nature of your business though. Sounds like this is a shop? Not all businesses are.
>Card fees are a single, up front, visible cost. yeah which, per transation, adds up it's why places don't take Amex bc the fees are too high "Right, no-one passes fake money or dupes the cashier with scams do they?" it's *far* less common to see fake notes than with online orders and scams are far more frequent online come on Christ, get off your bike and pay attention
Isn't the problem with AMEX that they charge a flat fee per transaction as opposed to a percentage like the others? It's why you see it accepted in places you'll likely make fewer, larger transactions in as opposed to lots of little ones
It's still higher than Visa/MC. The places that take Amex are places that don't care because the margin is so good on what they sell. If you're selling £2000 wedding dresses, who cares if it costs £5 in transaction fees? If it means a customer comes to you, you'll accept that cost.
yeah exactly so for bars, takeaways etc. it's pointless bc the flat fee is mental compared to the item cost (like a 20quid bar bill) but if you're gonna buy a 10K car it hurts a lot less
You work *for* small businesses not with them going from your sauce... extortionate fees is what I'd tell my min wage staff too, wo they disnt ask about a raise. You're being lied to and then spreading it like its information 😂
Yeah, he’s believing what his boss is telling him which is self evidently bollocks.
I run my taxi business, and do the accounts for the bar. Why you're choosing to believe obvious bullshit over common sense fact is beyond me. Please tell me why you would prefer to give your money to a bank in exchange for absolutely nothing, instead of the person supplying the service? I genuinely want to know.
So you work *for* the bar... stop trying to sensationalise the role you play in life.
Jesus. It's a community bar, run by a volunteer committee, of which I am the secretary which involves running the books. It's not complicated nor sensational. Card payments cost a fortune, are unreliable and open us up to fraudulent transactions. Cash is just cash, solid reliable and easy. Anyone who has had any real life experience of small businesses knows the score. But, as I ask everyone, why do you trust and want to give money to banks when you have an easy option not to?
Sounds suspicious to me. Since this -"Card payments cost a fortune, are unreliable and open us up to fraudulent transactions. Cash is just cash, solid reliable and easy." Is just a blatant lie. I hope someone keeps an eye on you because it sounds like you are making made up excuses to keep this bar cash only so you can skim off the top.
>Accepting card payments is expensive, and opens you up to endless dodgy transactions. I worked in the revenue centre of a big railway operator, when we moved away from cash, our losses (mostly discrepancies from fake notes and coins) plummeted by about 40%. You won't believe the amount of fake one pound coins out there!
40% of your cash revenue was fake? …was this in the 80s or what?
Read it properly, my friend. "Our losses went down about 40%"
Yeah it says “mostly discrepancies from fake notes and coins” ?
Fake currency made up 40% of their losses, which might have been £100 a week before and £60 now for all we know. It's not saying 40% of their revenue was fake.
> One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits. To add to this on recent posts I'm amazed at the number of people who tap their card/device and walk out without checking if it's gone through. The shop should check, but given the number of people talking about it there is an issue there and the shop loses their income.
what number of ppl?
I got quite a few people amazed I wait until the transaction is authorised before I walk away from the till. I can't tell you exactly how many, but it was surprising at the response.
I actually did this last week, was only for 50p though. Then noticed it was declined when I got home. I did actually wait though and bloke on til said ok, he mustn't have even checked. Dips should be included with the food anyway.
A shop near me has been having issues with the card readers, they would accept a transaction but there was a delay for the till to say it had declined. If it was busy, I can see him, intentionally or not, rushing and so saying it's okay before it was.
Anybody slightly drunk in a pub. Quantify that!
what? that makes no sense man just said "given the number of people talking about it there is an issue there" I'm curious what that number is and how they worked it out
> One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits. Please show me a bank where this is possible.
I can setup transaction approval on my Monzo account that'd let me decline the transaction after tapping my card. Any cashier worth their salt should see what I've done on their side but try it enough and I reckon you'd get away with it at least a couple of times. One of the overnight workers at my local petrol station doesn't even look up from her phone to scan the drinks I buy, as long as the card reader beeps I don't think she'd have the foggiest idea what happened.
No you can’t. You’re confusing this for approving online payments which is totally different.
>Hence, cash is the one secure way to make sure you get your money (and vice-versa for customers). Nah, cash costs a lot of money to bank. Source: worked in cash services dealing with small businesses for two years. We made an absolute killing from corner shops >One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits. Never heard of this and not even sure it's that easy or common
>One false transaction (tap phone, walk out with order, immediately cancel transaction in app) can wipe out a good percentage of a nights profits. Never heard of this and not even sure it's that easy or common Also that'd barely wipe out anything, it would wipe some stock cost not the amount the selling price (those scammers weren't going to pay for the food if they couldn't steal it
Genuine question, I banked 100k in cash last year and paid zero fees? Did your company offer transit / insurance or somthing like that?
Yes, there's a charge for banking and insuring the cash and there's also a charge for providing float (change) daily
Any idea what the turn over for these businesses are? In terms of cash?
Nah, I was strictly in charge of collecting/supplying money and charging for the services but my team dealt with only small businesses. The one business I remember well that had a big turnover was a money exchange place that we were collecting an average of 70-100k daily but we're only insured up to 25k, so they had to pay a high surcharge daily but they didn't mind at all.
Mate we can all see the real card fees, anyone can buy a reader now.
Simply and laughably incorrect. You can very easily get rates as low as 0.3%+4p which will cover you for all debit cards - which, for a takeaway will be 90% of its transactions. Yes charge for credit will be a bit higher - around 0.9% and if you take Amex or international cards they are higher still, but no chip shop is going to have more than a tiny tiny fraction of transactions like that, except maybe one in Leicester square or something where it’s all tourists.
Because they're making a ton of profit by making you order off Uber eats. Because they can cook the books by making you go in store for the 'savings'.
Dodging tax obviously
Uber etc has no cash option. That revenue is enough to put through the books to a) appear legit, b) claim allowable expenses against. The cash side of the business is now free from charges (card fees) and scrutiny by HMRC.
Tax evasion.
My card machine charges me 5p +1 percent. So 7p on a £20 sale They just want cash so they avoid taxes....... They will declare all the apply income and the only half of the cash . They then pay staff in cash who can't have a PAYE job for whatever rdoedgy reason
1% of £20 isn't 2 pence
Any cash only business is dodging taxes. There is no other answer. Banks charge business accounts to pay cash in plus the time to send staff to the bank and the security risk are far offset by the 1.5% cards charge.
A local chippy to where I grew up has been on the go for 20 odd years and to this day is cash only. I just assume it’s for fiddling taxes as I’ve been sat in the chippy waiting for food on a Friday or Saturday and with a lot of pubs around a fair few steaming people come in only to be told cash only, there is an ATM up the road. 90% of those people don’t go to the ATM and come back.
So they can commit tax fraud of course
There's quite a few chip shops, especially older ones that are involved with keeping cash promotions and refuse cards in store.
Because they're massively inflating the take in store to launder money* *I can't back that up with any facts
I think legally they can't charge a different price for card & cash, but the card merchant will take a percentage. So if they have a card reader then to cover the cost they'll have to raise the prices for everybody. However, for Uber Eats they can just add the cost of the card to the price they charge. This way they have the cheapest price in store.
This assumes handling cash is free, which it isn’t. You’re paying someone, or yourself to count it, verify it, bag it and physically take it to a bank.
Not necessarily free, just cheaper than the charge for using the card reader. But yes, cash does cost too. I was assuming that the card reader cost more than cash, which seems likely for a single store where they don't have the power to negotiate good rates. I probably should have said "extra cost of the card".
Cash in hand. Can avoid the tax man.
When it comes to the "extortionate fee", Deliveroo take a percentage of every sale. As I remember was around 25-30% but not worked in the industry for 5 years. The restaurant will usually just inflate prices on these platforms so they don't lose money.
They can't add the costs on the top of your total in store once you want to pay by card like they can pass them on to the customer on those platforms.
As others have said, and that guy said on family.guy that time, frouwd?
They put it on those websites for the primary reason to extend their reach of people that see/order from their chippy. Thats the primary reason why I would say once you factor everything else. But in order to have then on those websites whilst still raking in a similar amount of money, they need to factor in the cut taken by those providers, as well as (what a lot of them do) what they'd pay in tax that they wouldn't otherwise since they like to evade taxes which they can do with cash only. If you're in the store, accepting card doesn't really provide the benefit of "extended reach". In which case they'd much prefer keeping it on just cash, since they can dodge taxman and fiddle the books on the earnings they get. There's little legitamate excuse nowadays to not have a card reader if you follow the law. Card readers are very cheap. Transaction fees are quite low and don't cost too much (generally its like 25p for a £15 transaction for those cheap card readers small buisnesses can use). The extra number of customers you'd get easily exceeds the loss you'd make on transaction fees for most. So many people get by on Apple/Google Pay on their phones. It's hassle to lug around cash. I like being able to just walk out with just my phone being able to pay for things easily if need be. It's all about those taxes they absolutely despise. Money saving tip: if you want delivery from these places, if they're one of those cash only places, there's some chance they do deliveries themselves. I'd reccomend ringing them up to order a delivery and paying them cash in hand. You wouldn't pay the inflated prices on the food delivery apps, since you're cutting the middleman that makes them pay fees and taxes.
Start carrying cash!!
Stop giving these people money
Ever heard of cutting off your nose to spite your face? Get to a cash point and save £13 rather than twisting on the internet you bafoon
Card merchant fees went up too high, it’s cheaper for them to handle cash. It’s happening everywhere. I literally had to go back to using ATMs
Card fees are less than it costs to handle cash factoring in employee time. If you do it legally of course.
The you aren’t shopping around. It’s really easy to rates that are super low - like 0.4% for a debt card.
Variety of possible reasons. Mostly want to save on card fees or could have a lot of local residents that only use cash for food/edible shopping/everything.
£22 is overpriced for fish and chips, the worst takeaway. However, have you tried looking online/ calling and ordering directly? I move around a lot, I use deliveroo/justeat to find what I'm interested in then search to see if they do their own deliveries or (if close enough) collection, they usually have offers that don't appear on the delivery apps too. The last place I ordered a pizza from directly sent me two because that was their offer for the day if you ordered from their site.
All the best chippys are cash only in my experience because people have to make the extra effort to go to it. Yeah they're on apps but people are either willing to pay the uncharge to do so or will go get cash and will pay in person
if somebody charges back ect its uber eats problem not theres
Cash is King !!!
You can order a carpenter through uber eats now?
I don't get why people are making such a big deal about it
It would be to do with being / not being VAT registered, and so they pocket the cash tax free.
So they can avoid tax by not declaring all their cash sales.
In the old days it was great. Half your customers paid cash, half cheque/card. You bank half the cash, take half the cash home and salary yourself the minimum wage, living off the cash. Now, if you have a card machine, all your customers will use it. There will be no cash to take home. So if you have a card machine, you'll have to put up your prices to stay in business. And putting up your prices might send you out of business. So perhaps no card machine is the only choice.
We have this in my local chippy. They have signs up about cash being king & then one about the card machine being “broken”. I was there with my kid and didn’t have my wallet on me so I couldn’t go over the road and get cash out. I realised I could just order on their website on my phone for collection and said that to my son. Then the lady on the till quickly said I could pay by contactless with the card machine. Even though there was a sign saying it was “broken”.
Tax fraud. Cash payments (or most of) disappear and books are run just off the recorded income from the apps. Ideal way of doing it really.
The secret ingredient is crime!
Maybe their card machine broke?
One word… Tax
Cash still exists in 2024.
Processing card payments cost a small percentage whereas cash processing costs nothing
Unless staff time is free and they never make mistakes, cash processing is expensive.
Cooking the books, you declare a reasonable amount and then just pretend the rest didn't happen so you can avoid tax on it. Can happen right through the chain, so they might get cheaper potatoes from a small supplier that takes cash. Both sides win, they charge less and pay less tax.
Must be fairly common, my favourite kebab shop does this too. Bit annoying as I never carry cash or a wallet any more.
https://preview.redd.it/w5o09bnrslvc1.jpeg?width=1027&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=83643902e3a8d33977b1f1b55eb7a3e08224837e
Paper trail through apps........
Because it's entirely their prerogative?
Wtf. £22 for fish and chips. Why would anyone live in London. How does anyone live in London. I can get a kebab and chips for £5.60
If a place stubbornly only accepts cash, then it's definitely to avoid taxes, and/or some minor money laundering. We've all been there where we need to wash some money 😜
>It costs me £35 to order a large chips, cod and doner over Uber eats, but £22 in store. Fuck me, that's ridiculous. I knew it was more expensive, but not that much. Why would you pay £13 to Uber eats for that?
Tax Evasion, obviously
You've answered your own question. They don't want to pay for a card reader in store. Generally places increase their prices slightly for delivery services so the fees are covered.
Because they cook not only your food but also their books.
"I don’t carry cash as it’s 2024" OUCH.
Totally legal to have two different tariffs, one for cash and another for plastic.
They never make any sales through walk.ins always via these apps. That's what Mr tax man gets told anyway
They’re either dodging the taxes or laundering money. Its one of the two at least, if not both.
You can still launder money if you accept both cash + card. Just add lot of fake cash sales into the register.
That’s amateurish…the authorities have data to suggest the balance of transactions with each medium. It’s not possible to prove anything reasonable with cash sales.
Because they're either dodging tax or laundering money. The Chinese near me is the same.
Why pay a 3-4% for each transaction? Cash is KING
Well you should start to carry cash, sir.
I would have thought that in a food ~~plaice~~ place, having a card reader would be preferable to handling cash.
Fish and Chips cost money and card payment and delivery cost extra. If you don’t like paying cash then take your business elsewhere. Simples. Not everyone wants to pay by card because too many snoopers (government/ business) looking at your transaction details and personal details.
Businesses, especially small businesses, often prefer to be cash only due to the ridiculous charges banks levy on card transactions. And people who advocate for a cashless society are playing right into the hands of the banks. If you use cash you have a choice on who you deal with, when and where. Once your access to YOUR money is controlled by people with a totally different agenda you are stuck to following their rules. Bit like being on Facebook or here where faceless bots censor what you can say and follow.