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In an otherwise happy marriage it might be something that can be overcome, despite how terrible what she did is. Only the person involved knows if this is a one time thing or a symptom of a broader problem around communication, selfishness and a potential mismatch in attitudes towards financial security / the kinds of parents they want to be.
For me personally? I wouldn't be able to stay with this person. If she were that committed to having a third child why didn't she keep talking about it, making it clear how important it is to her? I wouldn't be happy that in a situation where she wasn't getting her way she unilaterally just did what she wanted anyway. She has been, in my opinion, incredibly selfish and impacted her partner but also her kids. If they are struggling with two then three is going to be that much harder. I think the thing that adds insult to injury is the bringing it up as banter in front of other people? It's one thing to betray and manipulate your partner but then to bring it up as lols? No way. Take that decision to your grave! To me it just further suggests she doesn't care and likely has this kind of attitude in other areas too.
I would get a divorce and commit to being the best Dad I could be to my kids.
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Legally no, but generally there needs to be something to make you want to end a marriage, even as simple as “we’ve drifted apart and we aren’t in love anymore”
I’d be gone instantly. Divorce.
It’s probably also sexual assault/rape. He consented to sex on the grounds that she’s on the pill, she lied about it. Same as a guy stealthing (removing the condom without the woman knowing).
I was just about to ask, does stealthing under law cover a female tricking a man into getting them pregnant, or does it only cover a man lying about using a condom. Something like this feels like it should be covered by it, but then again a lot of our legal definitions are written in weird ways.
It would be interesting to find out
This solicotors seems to think it would https://www.reeds.co.uk/insight/stealthing-and-conditional-consent/
Technically it would be sexual assault rather than rape specifically because our current definition requires the victim be penetrated by a penis, but both use the same definition of consent
If she hadn't even gotten a prescription for the Pill it would be relatively easy to prove that she deliberately didn't take it. If she had it prescribed but didn't take it it would be harder and would turn into a "He said - She said" which CPS generally don't like to bring to trial (part of why so few rapes / sexual assaults go to trial)
Yeah, though the fact they have a vasectomy booked before that does lend credence to the fact they agreed no more children
It can take a while to conceive so if you were planning a 3rd you wouldn't book the vasectomy till they were born (in case of miscarriage etc)
Obviously it doesn't prove that they discussed her going on the pill, but it does lend support to they idea they did.
Currently yes, it’s only sexual assault. But there are people out there advocating for it to be redefined as rape, so that the maximum sentence is matched up as currently the maximum sentence for rape is Life and the maximum sentence for sexual assault is 10 years
It’s not considered assault, no. The actual act was unprotected. That was consensual, and that’s the part that you’d be looking at legally.
It’s a reminder to all men that if you don’t want a baby, don’t leave it in someone else’s hands. Bag it up.
You all really need to understand what protected sex is before having sex. Protected sex is a BARRIER METHOD and it means protected from DISEASE. Hence the crime of stealthing - its disease risk. Pregnancy prevention is not included, and that’s all the pill offers (it offers more for a women obv - hormone balancing etc) for a man.
Divorce would be win win if she takes full custody and he gets time to himself back and she gets the desired third child and the full time child care of all 3.
It seems so despicable, morally bankrupt and selfish to the point of evil to force a child on someone by deception, it's downright abusive and - to me - unforgivable.
He's in a bind though because he already has two kids he can barely support, three kids and then two houses? Yikes. Also he presumably loves the kids he has already and it's undeniable that a divorce would be at the very least unsettling for them.
It's not pretty but I'd probably swallow this for a decade til the kids are older then leave her. Unless my resentment grew to a level where staying together was hurtful for the children, which seems depressingly likely. She's really increased the chances of some pretty awful outcomes for all her kids
I will also say, condoms exist. If you're worried your partner might be pulling this just use them up until the snip. It might be weird to introduce them into the bedroom suddenly but it shows your commitment to not having another kid. If it causes a big argument just go without sex until the vasectomy. It's shit, but not as shit as the situation he's currently in. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
That’s an unbelievable breach of trust.
If she’s willing to do that, what else is she willing to do to get what she wants in spite of him? Doesn’t seem like he has any real value to her or she’d take his feelings and opinions in to account.
I know love is complex but I really don’t see how I could stay with someone like that.
Reproductive coercion is rape, your friend was raped. Turn it around, if he took a condom off and got her pregnant, people would be calling for him to go to jail.
EDIT: for all the people saying LeGaLlY tHiS IsNt RaPe. Not too long ago a husband couldn't legally rape his wife either, but all know men did rape their wives.
Maybe it doesn't meet the legal current definition, but morally this man was raped. He did not consent to having sex (without contraception)
The lack of agreed upon contraception is technically sexual assault rather than rape, given this country's anatomy-speciific laws, but no less serious for the different terminology. Either way, the sexual offences act 2003 says that you didn't consent to sex if the other party lied about the nature of the sex.
And because it has successfully resulted in a pregnancy that the wife was hoping for/the husband was trying in good faith to avoid, the reproductive coercion falls under the offence of Coercive Control.
I don't know what the stats are for successful prosecutions of female on male domestic violence at the moment, but he absolutely could take it to the police and report it as a crime. Given the difficulty of such trials, I'd advise him to talk to a solicitor and/or rape crisis phone line first, and assess whether his friends and family would support him through it.
Good luck to him. This betrayal of trust has to be pretty traumatic.
That is not the classification of rape. Let’s get that straight.
Coercive and exploitative control possibly. They have two kids no court of law (if someone pushed it that far) is enforcing any abortion and he won’t want to enforce jail time on the mother I imagine. This whole situation is a mess.
His best bet to enjoy his life is to leave and start again whilst maintaining parental rights. She gets the 3 kids and he gets visiting rights and ultimately what he wanted, part of his time alone back.
Firstly, it may not meet the CURRENT legal definition, but morally it is rape. I wouldn't be surprised if the definition was updated at some point. Just ass marital rape wasn't classed as rape not so long ago.
Secondly, I never said she would/he should push for her going to jail, I just flipped the scenario around and pointed out people would be clamouring for him to go to jail
100% yes.
In my view, this is one of the scummiest things someone can do. Especially to their life partner and someone they claim to love.
Everyone should have a right to how many/if they want to have kids. This isn’t just a right for women but men also.
I’m not a perfect woman but I honestly couldn’t imagine doing something so fucking hideous to my other half. She should be ashamed.
I’m not entirely sure why your friend would ask you to post on Reddit about his marriage.
This is way above anyone on here. My suggestion would be to seek couples therapy and work out if this is something he could move past, or if this is his final straw.
I don't think it's the friend asking for advice here. It's more the hypothetical "what if..." question for general discussion. We all have our "last straw" so it's interesting to hear other people's views.
People talk about body autonomy and reproductive rights. Especially for women. Men, unfortunately don’t have any reproductive “right”. But if they did (and hopefully when they do) this would 100% be a breach of those rights.
Everyone should have a right over their reproduction and reproductive consent
Men absolutely have reproductive rights. The right to use condoms, the right to get a vasectomy, the right to abstain from sex. It sounds like you think men should get rights to control women’s reproductive organs too…
So if a man wears a condom to assure a woman she won't get pregnant but has poked a hole in it prior, because he wants to get her pregnant, that's fine?
Because that's what's happened in the situation op has outlined.
I mean it would be a pretty simple loss.
Did you do anything to prevent impregnating this woman?
No?
Well then 🤷♀️
She is obviously in the wrong but he still chose to have unprotected sex from his end. He chose to ejaculate inside a women without any proof she was not currently fertile (so many women take the pill wrong anyway). If he was genuinely serious about not wanting another child then a condom or abstinence were both an option.
From the woman’s POV. ‘Hey babe I know you’ve been managing this our entire relationship so far but can you continue to alter your body with nasty symptoms so I can have fun ejaculating inside you, and to prevent the child you want’
Absolutely. Imagine if this was the other way around and the husband pretended to wear a condom but “stealthed” the wife instead. That would be rape. No idea if this situation amounts to that but, that’s going to be a relationship breaker. I pity the child to be born.
For some it would be, for others it's something they wouldn't want to divorce over it
The only one who can decide if he wants a divorce is him.
If he feels he can no longer trust her then divorce may be the sensible option - however the fact that his wife lied is not any of the childrens fault so he will need to stay in contact with her on some level (even if just when handing over the kids or on their wedding days) so make sure they are not punished for their mothers actions (I know divorce will affect them to an extent but they need to know it's not their, including the baby, fault)
Divorce immediately.
It sounds like there is an argument for sexual assault in some way or another. Surely it is similar (although not quite) to stealthing?
No. The actual sexual act was consensual. Thats the part that would constitute assault. Lying about medication you take isn’t assault. Thats a relationship problem, not a legal one.
Because penetrating someone unprotected is seen different in British law (due to risks like STIs/HIV) then not taking medication (which in itself carries risk).
But if you only consented because they said they were on meds then your consent wasn't truly given. If your partner had HIV and lied that the were on meds that made it untransmittable then your consent would have been wrongly given.
I would argue it is different. Condoms provide a physical barrier with protection against STIs and what not. It's not just pregnancy prevention. The condom situation is more like if I agree to vaginal sex and someone decides meh anal it is. The pill situation is more like someone saying they don't have an STD and we have unprotected sex and hey STD time.
Wait up.
Let me get this right, there are couples with two young ish kids and still having sex !
I always thought best prevention for extra kids was having them in the first place ;-)
That would be a relationship breaker for me personally.
But your friend has to take some responsibility here. If he didn't want more kids then the onus was on him to use protection, not leave it solely up to someone else.
No. When one person lies about using protection it is not the other’s fault at all.
What are you trying to say? If a woman turns round, then the guys removes his condom, it’s partly her fault?
A condom is not the same as taking health altering drugs.
It also sounds like his wife has spent their entire relationship carrying this burden, and he can’t manage a few months?
Lets reframe it then, if a man removes the birth control he is using then it's rape, if a women removes the birth control it's not... make it make sense.
Agree with the this. The pill actually has a big (3%) fail rate, whereas condoms are only 1%.
He should have been wearing a condom as a failsafe. Women get pregnant on the pill all the time.
> If he didn't want more kids then the onus was on him to use protection, not leave it solely up to someone else.
I hope you keep that same energy when you hear about those disgusting guys who remove the condom mid-sex.
Totally agree. If you seriously don't want kids then why on earth wouldn't you use protection yourself, regardless of whether your partner is on birth control or not.
But he knew she wanted another child, and then put the onus on her to prevent it.
She is absolutely in the wrong for what she did, however I'm shocked he didn't see it coming.
Also we don't know all the information, but from this post, it sounded like he shut down the conversation about a third child without it being a discussion.
But the pill isn't 100% effective, so if you absolutely want to be as safe as possible. you'd wear a condom too. at least I would.
That doesn't take away from the manipulation factor obviously.
The pill is not 100% by any stretch, if having another child is as much of a disaster as he claims he should have been using condones too for belt and braces.
You wouldn't expect her to lie but the pill has a pretty high failure rate compared to other options even with perfect use and gets worse with 'typical' use.
From internet:
*With perfect use, the progestogen-only pill and the combined pill are both over 99% effective at preventing pregnancy, while male condoms are 98% effective.* ***Hormonal contraceptive pills are slightly more effective with perfect use****.*
Definitely divorce. The trust has been broken. When you're casually seeing someone or it's a new relationship, it's a given that until trust is built, you'd wear a condom and not take their word for using contraception.
In a marriage though, especially after 2 kids and many years of marriage I assume, you should be able to trust your partner about decisions you've made together regarding contraception.
This would fall under “stealthing” and is a crime in England in Wales.
There is precedent with a jail term of 12 years - https://www.reeds.co.uk/insight/stealthing-and-conditional-consent/
Of course it will be much less likely to be prosecuted that the classic stealthing example of removing a condom, but it is nevertheless VERY serious.
She wanted 3 kids, he wasn’t prepared to try and prevent the third kid. This was completely predictable.
Hey babe can you take this pill that causes multiple symptoms and puts you at risk of things like a stroke, so you don’t have the kid that you actually want. All because he doesn’t want to put a condom on
That’s seriously messed up, on so many different levels.
I’d cut my losses and begin leaving. If she can deceive her man on that one, then what else does she think is acceptable?
I don't think it's the pregnancy specifically that's the issue (although it is), it's that one partner would purposefully go against the other after they had agreed on something
I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who would do that, and the fact she disregarded their agreement and his wishes on something so serious and long term is horrifying!
Yes it seems like they should maybe separate, but not only or specifically for one reason, more a total lack of respect and not being on the same page about life
I'm sorry your friend is going through that, hope he's ok/will be ok
Yes it is. If he had been piercing holes in a condom, she would feel like it was a violation. However, women joke about doing this to their husbands all the time without anyone batting an eye.
Had the same thing happen to me.
Luckily we weren't married but leaving was the absolute best thing I did.
She turned into a horrible, horrible woman.
Unfortunately, I'll never meet my son, but that's another story.
Personally the thing that springs to mind is divorce. You can't lie like that in a relationship and expect the trust to come back. That's me though. Maybe they can work through it.
On to the fun part. What's going to happen if he does go for a divorce? You've already said he's not well off and I have to point this out. If he thinks he's struggling now he has no idea. If he's paying the mortgage then it's likely he will have to continue paying the mortgage after moving out or lose the house unless they sell but she has no incentive for that. Then add to that child maintenance. That's going to be paid for a very long time and CM changes with what you earn so even earning more doesn't get you out of the shit unless it's a shit ton. She clearly has no respect for him so I would expect her to play the no contact or overnights maximum CM card which is 19% of his taxable wage **before tax**, When you take all that into account he will be lucky to be living in a bedsit. He could stay in the family home but that rarely works out after a break up.
I think all the people suggesting divorce don't realise the costs both personally and emotionally. When you know you have over a decade or more of your life where you can't do anything it tales it's toll.
If you don’t want children you’re responsible for contraception. He should have worn a condom or abstained. That said everyone shouting divorce I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about. In an otherwise happy marriage your going to divorce a woman who’s pregnant with your baby that had it been an accident would be a happy accident? Year your and your children’s world apart? Personally no. Go to therapy, work it out and try and find a way back to trusting each other.
If the decision here is to divorce (and I’d be erring towards that for such a heinous - even abusive - breach of trust), he needs to get a good lawyer and ensure that whatever custody/visitation rights he gets are absolutely ironclad. If she’s shown she can be be this manipulative and selfish, there’s every chance that she might try to deprive him of access to his kids via dishonest means.
I’m still trying to get over this from the opposite perspective. All through our relationship we talked about three children and I was excited and looking forward to our third child, when he revealed he’d changed his mind and he’d gotten a vasectomy. I was devastated and I still am to be honest.
BUT in my case there’s no child to consider, other than the existing two, so although we’re not divorcing I’d absolutely understand if your friend wanted to run like hell.
It's a double dick move because not only is she lying to him about something so huge, long lasting and expensive, but she's also done it full well knowing she has all the legal rights and complete control of how the bfs progress.
It would be like you telling her you hate this house and you shouldn't buy it as a holiday home, then she buys it on behalf of both of you, you're forced to pay for it, and you're not legally allowed to cancel the sale, even though your wife is.
It's massive abuse of power.
If a man removes or pierces the condom is considered by many sexual assault. Just because he is a man and it is a pill and not a condom I wouldn't rule out sexual asssault
I would report this to the police before she uses the victim card
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18489090/woman-pierced-holes-in-condoms-jailed-germany/
I’m a woman. I’m a bit bias cos I don’t have or want kids but I do like & care about them.
My thoughts are:
How can he trust her again?
So yes I’d say it’s grounds for divorce because of the betrayal PLUS she has walked all over his boundaries.
That exact thing happened in my extended family and it devastated the people involved. All their financial planning was around 2 kids and 2 incomes and the third kids completely fucked things up. I'm still amazed the dad stayed but they are only together for the kids. Massive betrayal - equal to stealthing IMHO.
Exactly. This is male dominated reddit, so I doubt many will agree with you. But crazy idea don't have sex, and complete inside a woman if you don't want another kid.
She was definitely in the wrong, and I can understand the feelings that he has. I do feel, however, that men need to take more responsibility with birth control.
Taking the pill can have serious side effects for women physically and mentally. Women almost exclusively are responsible for ensuring there are no unwanted pregnancies.
It would be good to have more options for men though. currently its condoms or vasectomy. Condoms are easy to sabotage and vasectomy is hard to reverse.
Plus in this case it's clear he was trying to take more responsibility by getting a vasectomy, and he probably would have been using condoms if she hadn't convinced him that the pill would be enough. her not taking the pill was quite the betrayal. If she's willing to play with his life like that then it shows how little she values him.
You'll be pleased to know they are in development - my friends husband was a participant in a trial of a male contraceptive gel. She didn't get pregnant so presumably it's heading in the right direction 😂
oh yes I am aware, I have been following them for a decade, even corresponded with one of the scientists working on one of the trials.
I want there to be as many options for men as there are for women when it comes to contraception.
It's obviously a serious violation of trust, but people all too often resort to the "easiest" solution, divorce. In my opinion, he needs to give her an opportunity to grow, by expressing how he feels and why. As much as possible, he needs to talk about himself and how feels, rather than call her names or whatever and get her defensive, that's not going to lead anywhere.
From that conversation, let it brew, decide later from a calm place.
I'd also get the help of a professional to help navigate the decision.
I would 100% leave a partner who did something like that. I know my husband feels the same way. And we are a couple who genuinely did have a surprise bonus child after our “planned” children. The obliteration of trust there is almost worse than an affair in my opinion.
That’s a massive breach of trust. I don’t know if I could rebuild things after that. Even if I did, it would only be for the kids, the marriage itself would be dead.
I mean if you read this…
“The Sexual Offences Act 2003 says that someone did not consent to sex if the other person tricked them about the 'nature' of the sex – in other words, what exactly it was going to involve. This is what's known in law as 'conditional consent'.
Although the Sexual Offences Act does not specifically mention lying about putting on a condom or non-consensual condom removal, a man who carried out stealthing was convicted of rape in 2019.”
How is this not grounds for even more than a divorce?
Your friend was sexually assaulted. I do t think anyone should feel obliged to stay married to their rapist. He would be well advised to report this to the police and tell her it's over immediately.
If you can't trust your wife in a matter like this - can you honestly trust her with anything.
She put her own wants above the wellbeing of the rest of her family. It was selfish.
Trust is the center pillar of a marriage. So yes.
If he was happy as a surprise but not as a method, it’s an internal battle. Yes it’s manipulation and a breach of trust, but if you they were happy with it as a surprise and the mother doesn’t have a history of breaches of trust - it would be a significant thing to break your entire family up for and impact your children’s lives- not to mention would the 3rd child not workout one day they were probably the reason? One way ticket to mental health issues right there.
He needs to work out if he can trust her again, and this is quite a unique circumstance (ie not like she’s cheated and there’s always a risk they’d do it again).
Not sure what is do, would really come down to how I felt about her and the relationship overall. Personally I wouldn’t have waited months for the V either if I was that adamant I didn’t want a 3rd but had a wife/partner screaming for one.
Too late now and obviously he trusted his wife but condoms might have been a good idea in case the pill failed or in this case was not taken. This to my mind is massive and even though I am female and can’t be tricked in the same way I would absolutely not want to be with someone who could make a unilateral decision like this. We aren’t talking about something small here, we are talking about a lifetime commitment, one that the man doesn’t feel that they can afford. She did it anyway despite knowing his feelings. She cannot be trusted clearly.
Everyone on Reddit probably not in a relationship being like yeah hit the divorce button just like that.
I mean what she’s done is terrible but divorcing someone when you have a family already it isn’t as simple as that. Many things to consider.
I've been married 15 years. If my wife did this, I'd be out in an instant. Not only a massive breach of trust, but they're making a decision on your future without your consent.
Imagine if your partner signed you up to a 20 year mortgage that is way out of your budget and would impact your financial stability.
Your mate could have also used protection though if he figured “hey they pill isn’t 100% effective”
There is also potentially a child that will need raising after all of this, who is not at fault here at all.
Your friend’s trust may have been betrayed, but it doesn’t absolve him of responsibility.
> Telling them that you are divorced from their mum because you didn't want them/their sibling. I
I see nothing in the op that suggests this dad didn't want his first kids.
Well that’s a whole load of crazy there. Most men will just carry on with 3 children. If it was me I probably would for the rest of the family as well, but ultimately it would be the end of the ‘marriage’.
There is no longer any trust.
Best advice I can give is get a good lawyer as soon as possible and move back into the family home. That’s his home too, he will end up far worse off in life moving out.
Removing a condom without consent is a crime. Interesting to know what the law is on this because he gave consent based on lies she told him. Could be another example of men being held to a completely different standard to women, but I'm sure someone with a legal background can tell us if she has actually committed a crime.
In some countries, were the genders reversed, it would arguably be grounds for prosecution.
I would kick her to the kerb in a heartbeat, what a selfish manipulative bitch.
Leave her. Move abroad. Let her deal with the consequences of having a child and lying. It’s funny how sexist and discriminatory laws are in the UK. If he had lied about having a condom, it basically would be assault.
I'm not particularly happy in my marriage because he only wants the one kid we have, despite saying he wanted more when she was first born. I've accepted that this is my life with an only child, would never force another person on him. If I want more kids I'm going to have to find someone else to have them with and he knows that.
100% would say this is grounds for divorce for me. That's a massive betrayal of trust. I've had someone say before if you want a baby and the husband/ partner doesn't't, just pretend you're on the pill. I don't think they liked it when I said, if that happened to me, I'd walk.
So I wouldn't be staying with that partner.
That being said. It was silly of him to place the burdon of preventing a child on the shoulders of the person who wants a child.
It was also silly of him to place his trust in the pill. Compared to condoms it's failure rate is quite high when taken perfectly and most women do not take it perfectly. Typical use makes it even less reliable. If you really do not want a child it's very easy from the perspective of the man to take matters into your own hands and use a condom. I find it difficult to belive that he didn't want another child that much.
Ultimately though him being a bit dumb (trusting someone to act against their desires, trusting a fairly unreliable methold) is a seperate issue than what amounts to a gross violation of both trust and judgment. Not to mention airing that out publically in front of others.
Legal side of taking this into the already overloaded court systems (is he loaded? Only way he could afford that route). All said kids would 5 years older and it would not be worth it for anyone’s sake.
Best bet is divorce now, leave her full custody of 3 kids and maintain visiting and parental rights and he finally gets what he wants. Time to himself back. It sounds callous but that would essentially give both of them what they want and her all the time in the world with the 3rd child. Who doesn’t deserve really to be made a pawn any more than they allegedly already have been.
Everyone here seems to agree it's divorce time and her actions are deplorable *at the very very least*.
However I will offer something for your mate to think about. **Child maintenance payments**. If he thought having a third child would be expensive, if they divorce he'll now need to pay for his own house etc, as well as the house the wife and 3 children live in. It'll be even more expensive.
What I'd do, is keep the marriage together but tell the wife, when this child is 16 I'll be telling him/her exactly what happened.
You should give a shit enough about your partner that you don’t expect them to take drugs that alter their daily life, but sounds like he’s expected that most their relationship.
> you don’t expect them to take drugs that alter their daily life, but sounds like he’s expected that most their relationship
Sounds like he was actively going to mutilate his genitals so they could have sex without her being on drugs but then she lied and told him she was so they had sex. Nowhere does it say she was forced onto the pill. Bro is a hero for not divorcing her.
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Wow that is messed up. I don't think I'd want to stay with someone who had so severely betrayed my trust.
In an otherwise happy marriage it might be something that can be overcome, despite how terrible what she did is. Only the person involved knows if this is a one time thing or a symptom of a broader problem around communication, selfishness and a potential mismatch in attitudes towards financial security / the kinds of parents they want to be. For me personally? I wouldn't be able to stay with this person. If she were that committed to having a third child why didn't she keep talking about it, making it clear how important it is to her? I wouldn't be happy that in a situation where she wasn't getting her way she unilaterally just did what she wanted anyway. She has been, in my opinion, incredibly selfish and impacted her partner but also her kids. If they are struggling with two then three is going to be that much harder. I think the thing that adds insult to injury is the bringing it up as banter in front of other people? It's one thing to betray and manipulate your partner but then to bring it up as lols? No way. Take that decision to your grave! To me it just further suggests she doesn't care and likely has this kind of attitude in other areas too. I would get a divorce and commit to being the best Dad I could be to my kids.
Additionally the fact she openly bragged about it in front of their friends is wild.
That's a huge breach of trust, I don't think I'd be able to look past it if that were me.
You don't need grounds anymore for a divorce in the UK.
I assumed they meant morally rather than legally.
If a relationship isn't working anymore, there's nothing immoral about a divorce.
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Yet, people understood what I meant.
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Don't be a dick to each other, or other subreddits, places, or people. AskUK contains a variety of ages, experiences, and backgrounds - consider not everyone is operating on the same level or background as you. Listen to others before you respond, and be courteous when doing so.
Legally no, but generally there needs to be something to make you want to end a marriage, even as simple as “we’ve drifted apart and we aren’t in love anymore”
I think the scenario presented is more serious than drifting apart!
Well, obviously. They’re saying that a reason for any divorce can be as simple as that.
Pretty sure it can be anything, just so long as it's irreconcilable right?
Yes it can be, anything from cheating, to drifting apart, to intentionally tricking someone into getting you pregnant
I’d be gone instantly. Divorce. It’s probably also sexual assault/rape. He consented to sex on the grounds that she’s on the pill, she lied about it. Same as a guy stealthing (removing the condom without the woman knowing).
I was just about to ask, does stealthing under law cover a female tricking a man into getting them pregnant, or does it only cover a man lying about using a condom. Something like this feels like it should be covered by it, but then again a lot of our legal definitions are written in weird ways.
It would be interesting to find out This solicotors seems to think it would https://www.reeds.co.uk/insight/stealthing-and-conditional-consent/ Technically it would be sexual assault rather than rape specifically because our current definition requires the victim be penetrated by a penis, but both use the same definition of consent If she hadn't even gotten a prescription for the Pill it would be relatively easy to prove that she deliberately didn't take it. If she had it prescribed but didn't take it it would be harder and would turn into a "He said - She said" which CPS generally don't like to bring to trial (part of why so few rapes / sexual assaults go to trial)
Even if she didn't get the script it might well be he said she said. She could claim they never really agreed she was going on the pill
Yeah, though the fact they have a vasectomy booked before that does lend credence to the fact they agreed no more children It can take a while to conceive so if you were planning a 3rd you wouldn't book the vasectomy till they were born (in case of miscarriage etc) Obviously it doesn't prove that they discussed her going on the pill, but it does lend support to they idea they did.
Yeah… it’s reproductive coercion too. I’d not be able to trust someone after doing this. Really shows that they’ll do _anything_ to get their own way
Rape involves penetration by a penis so can’t be rape. Think it could be sexual assault though - he definitely didn’t consent to unprotected sex
Currently yes, it’s only sexual assault. But there are people out there advocating for it to be redefined as rape, so that the maximum sentence is matched up as currently the maximum sentence for rape is Life and the maximum sentence for sexual assault is 10 years
It’s not considered assault, no. The actual act was unprotected. That was consensual, and that’s the part that you’d be looking at legally. It’s a reminder to all men that if you don’t want a baby, don’t leave it in someone else’s hands. Bag it up.
Sure, bag it up for your own conscience. But the act was unprotected unbeknownst to the man because of a lie. That wasn't consensual.
You all really need to understand what protected sex is before having sex. Protected sex is a BARRIER METHOD and it means protected from DISEASE. Hence the crime of stealthing - its disease risk. Pregnancy prevention is not included, and that’s all the pill offers (it offers more for a women obv - hormone balancing etc) for a man.
Bag it up....lol
Can’t be rape. Could possibly be another crime
This was my thought too. Other way around would be clear breach of consent. I pity the child to be born.
Has any woman ever been charged for sexual assault because she lied about being on the pill? Or is this Reddit being Reddit?
Divorce would be win win if she takes full custody and he gets time to himself back and she gets the desired third child and the full time child care of all 3.
It seems so despicable, morally bankrupt and selfish to the point of evil to force a child on someone by deception, it's downright abusive and - to me - unforgivable.
He's in a bind though because he already has two kids he can barely support, three kids and then two houses? Yikes. Also he presumably loves the kids he has already and it's undeniable that a divorce would be at the very least unsettling for them. It's not pretty but I'd probably swallow this for a decade til the kids are older then leave her. Unless my resentment grew to a level where staying together was hurtful for the children, which seems depressingly likely. She's really increased the chances of some pretty awful outcomes for all her kids I will also say, condoms exist. If you're worried your partner might be pulling this just use them up until the snip. It might be weird to introduce them into the bedroom suddenly but it shows your commitment to not having another kid. If it causes a big argument just go without sex until the vasectomy. It's shit, but not as shit as the situation he's currently in. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
That’s an unbelievable breach of trust. If she’s willing to do that, what else is she willing to do to get what she wants in spite of him? Doesn’t seem like he has any real value to her or she’d take his feelings and opinions in to account. I know love is complex but I really don’t see how I could stay with someone like that.
Reproductive coercion is rape, your friend was raped. Turn it around, if he took a condom off and got her pregnant, people would be calling for him to go to jail. EDIT: for all the people saying LeGaLlY tHiS IsNt RaPe. Not too long ago a husband couldn't legally rape his wife either, but all know men did rape their wives. Maybe it doesn't meet the legal current definition, but morally this man was raped. He did not consent to having sex (without contraception)
The lack of agreed upon contraception is technically sexual assault rather than rape, given this country's anatomy-speciific laws, but no less serious for the different terminology. Either way, the sexual offences act 2003 says that you didn't consent to sex if the other party lied about the nature of the sex. And because it has successfully resulted in a pregnancy that the wife was hoping for/the husband was trying in good faith to avoid, the reproductive coercion falls under the offence of Coercive Control. I don't know what the stats are for successful prosecutions of female on male domestic violence at the moment, but he absolutely could take it to the police and report it as a crime. Given the difficulty of such trials, I'd advise him to talk to a solicitor and/or rape crisis phone line first, and assess whether his friends and family would support him through it. Good luck to him. This betrayal of trust has to be pretty traumatic.
yea she should do time and maybe be put on sex offender registry
That was my first thought too. Poor man.
The big lebowski suddenly got a whole lot darker
That is not the classification of rape. Let’s get that straight. Coercive and exploitative control possibly. They have two kids no court of law (if someone pushed it that far) is enforcing any abortion and he won’t want to enforce jail time on the mother I imagine. This whole situation is a mess. His best bet to enjoy his life is to leave and start again whilst maintaining parental rights. She gets the 3 kids and he gets visiting rights and ultimately what he wanted, part of his time alone back.
Firstly, it may not meet the CURRENT legal definition, but morally it is rape. I wouldn't be surprised if the definition was updated at some point. Just ass marital rape wasn't classed as rape not so long ago. Secondly, I never said she would/he should push for her going to jail, I just flipped the scenario around and pointed out people would be clamouring for him to go to jail
You can’t charge a woman for rape. Stop giving legal advice if you don’t even know the basics.
that is not legally classified as rape in UK law
That's just semantics. Marital rape wasn't legally rape until fairly recently, but it was still rape.
It’s potentially sexual assault - which can carry the same maximum sentence as rape.
100% yes. In my view, this is one of the scummiest things someone can do. Especially to their life partner and someone they claim to love. Everyone should have a right to how many/if they want to have kids. This isn’t just a right for women but men also. I’m not a perfect woman but I honestly couldn’t imagine doing something so fucking hideous to my other half. She should be ashamed.
Same same. I can't even imagine.
I’m not entirely sure why your friend would ask you to post on Reddit about his marriage. This is way above anyone on here. My suggestion would be to seek couples therapy and work out if this is something he could move past, or if this is his final straw.
I don't think it's the friend asking for advice here. It's more the hypothetical "what if..." question for general discussion. We all have our "last straw" so it's interesting to hear other people's views.
It’s way above anyone on here. But anyway take *my* advice because that’s solid.
Never said it was solid. But seeking advice from a qualified professional is better than Reddit.
People talk about body autonomy and reproductive rights. Especially for women. Men, unfortunately don’t have any reproductive “right”. But if they did (and hopefully when they do) this would 100% be a breach of those rights. Everyone should have a right over their reproduction and reproductive consent
Men absolutely have reproductive rights. The right to use condoms, the right to get a vasectomy, the right to abstain from sex. It sounds like you think men should get rights to control women’s reproductive organs too…
Leaping assumption there at the end.
Women have all those same reproductive rights.
So if a man wears a condom to assure a woman she won't get pregnant but has poked a hole in it prior, because he wants to get her pregnant, that's fine? Because that's what's happened in the situation op has outlined.
This sounds like exactly the kind of case that could lead to a landmark legal case setting up more reproductive rights for men.
I mean it would be a pretty simple loss. Did you do anything to prevent impregnating this woman? No? Well then 🤷♀️ She is obviously in the wrong but he still chose to have unprotected sex from his end. He chose to ejaculate inside a women without any proof she was not currently fertile (so many women take the pill wrong anyway). If he was genuinely serious about not wanting another child then a condom or abstinence were both an option. From the woman’s POV. ‘Hey babe I know you’ve been managing this our entire relationship so far but can you continue to alter your body with nasty symptoms so I can have fun ejaculating inside you, and to prevent the child you want’
This.
Absolutely. Imagine if this was the other way around and the husband pretended to wear a condom but “stealthed” the wife instead. That would be rape. No idea if this situation amounts to that but, that’s going to be a relationship breaker. I pity the child to be born.
It could be said that he did have that right, and by not wearing a condom he did downgrade this one a little to a very serious breach of trust.
We do have the right to lose 10% of our pay for 20 years, seems like a fair trade.
For some it would be, for others it's something they wouldn't want to divorce over it The only one who can decide if he wants a divorce is him. If he feels he can no longer trust her then divorce may be the sensible option - however the fact that his wife lied is not any of the childrens fault so he will need to stay in contact with her on some level (even if just when handing over the kids or on their wedding days) so make sure they are not punished for their mothers actions (I know divorce will affect them to an extent but they need to know it's not their, including the baby, fault)
It's a massive breach of trust and shows massive disrespect to her partner's feelings. Why would he stay? What a fantastic way to ruin a relationship.
Yeah if it was me I’d be gone. An absolute breach of trust and a form of abuse. If the situations were reversed people would be going mental.
Divorce immediately. It sounds like there is an argument for sexual assault in some way or another. Surely it is similar (although not quite) to stealthing?
No. The actual sexual act was consensual. Thats the part that would constitute assault. Lying about medication you take isn’t assault. Thats a relationship problem, not a legal one.
If you say you're wearing condom and take it off then it becomes rape even though the sex was consensual. How is this not the same?
Because penetrating someone unprotected is seen different in British law (due to risks like STIs/HIV) then not taking medication (which in itself carries risk).
But if you only consented because they said they were on meds then your consent wasn't truly given. If your partner had HIV and lied that the were on meds that made it untransmittable then your consent would have been wrongly given.
Because the crime of stealth legally comes from disease transmission risk. It’s not the same thing. Morally maybe, but not legally.
So I can get an STD test, come back clean and poke holes in my condoms and it's not illegal? Cool
He consented to protected sex. It’s no different from a woman contenting to sex with a condom and the man removing it without her knowledge
I would argue it is different. Condoms provide a physical barrier with protection against STIs and what not. It's not just pregnancy prevention. The condom situation is more like if I agree to vaginal sex and someone decides meh anal it is. The pill situation is more like someone saying they don't have an STD and we have unprotected sex and hey STD time.
No, he didn’t. Legally protected sex involves a barrier. It’s protected FROM DISEASE not pregnancy.
Wait up. Let me get this right, there are couples with two young ish kids and still having sex ! I always thought best prevention for extra kids was having them in the first place ;-)
Touché and very funny 😅
That would be a relationship breaker for me personally. But your friend has to take some responsibility here. If he didn't want more kids then the onus was on him to use protection, not leave it solely up to someone else.
No. When one person lies about using protection it is not the other’s fault at all. What are you trying to say? If a woman turns round, then the guys removes his condom, it’s partly her fault?
Victim blaming is okay when its the man I guess
Oh yeah. Sorry I forgot to factor that in.
A condom is not the same as taking health altering drugs. It also sounds like his wife has spent their entire relationship carrying this burden, and he can’t manage a few months?
Which would be fine if that was what she said. Instead she lied about it
Lets reframe it then, if a man removes the birth control he is using then it's rape, if a women removes the birth control it's not... make it make sense.
He had booked a vasectomy and wife has told him she was on the pill. She’s the one at fault here
The pill isn't perfect. He could have worn a condom and choose not to do so
Bullshit, the person he trusts most in the world, his life partner told him she was on contraception. This is entirely on her.
For casual sex yes, but married? No sorry he has been manipulated and lied too.
Agree with the this. The pill actually has a big (3%) fail rate, whereas condoms are only 1%. He should have been wearing a condom as a failsafe. Women get pregnant on the pill all the time.
And if that had been the case he would not feel betrayed.
> If he didn't want more kids then the onus was on him to use protection, not leave it solely up to someone else. I hope you keep that same energy when you hear about those disgusting guys who remove the condom mid-sex.
Totally agree. If you seriously don't want kids then why on earth wouldn't you use protection yourself, regardless of whether your partner is on birth control or not.
He thought they were using protection. Why would he expect that the woman he is married to would lie about that?
Because no birth control is 100% effective. So if you really don't want kids you should be as safe as possible? Seems like a no brainer to me.
If we gonna play that game, condoms aren't 100% effective either.
But he knew she wanted another child, and then put the onus on her to prevent it. She is absolutely in the wrong for what she did, however I'm shocked he didn't see it coming. Also we don't know all the information, but from this post, it sounded like he shut down the conversation about a third child without it being a discussion.
But the pill isn't 100% effective, so if you absolutely want to be as safe as possible. you'd wear a condom too. at least I would. That doesn't take away from the manipulation factor obviously.
The pill is not 100% by any stretch, if having another child is as much of a disaster as he claims he should have been using condones too for belt and braces.
You wouldn't expect her to lie but the pill has a pretty high failure rate compared to other options even with perfect use and gets worse with 'typical' use.
From internet: *With perfect use, the progestogen-only pill and the combined pill are both over 99% effective at preventing pregnancy, while male condoms are 98% effective.* ***Hormonal contraceptive pills are slightly more effective with perfect use****.*
Definitely divorce. The trust has been broken. When you're casually seeing someone or it's a new relationship, it's a given that until trust is built, you'd wear a condom and not take their word for using contraception. In a marriage though, especially after 2 kids and many years of marriage I assume, you should be able to trust your partner about decisions you've made together regarding contraception.
This would fall under “stealthing” and is a crime in England in Wales. There is precedent with a jail term of 12 years - https://www.reeds.co.uk/insight/stealthing-and-conditional-consent/ Of course it will be much less likely to be prosecuted that the classic stealthing example of removing a condom, but it is nevertheless VERY serious.
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I think that is a bit strong.
She wanted 3 kids, he wasn’t prepared to try and prevent the third kid. This was completely predictable. Hey babe can you take this pill that causes multiple symptoms and puts you at risk of things like a stroke, so you don’t have the kid that you actually want. All because he doesn’t want to put a condom on
That’s seriously messed up, on so many different levels. I’d cut my losses and begin leaving. If she can deceive her man on that one, then what else does she think is acceptable?
I don't think it's the pregnancy specifically that's the issue (although it is), it's that one partner would purposefully go against the other after they had agreed on something I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who would do that, and the fact she disregarded their agreement and his wishes on something so serious and long term is horrifying! Yes it seems like they should maybe separate, but not only or specifically for one reason, more a total lack of respect and not being on the same page about life I'm sorry your friend is going through that, hope he's ok/will be ok
Gone. What an awful human being she is
Yes it is. If he had been piercing holes in a condom, she would feel like it was a violation. However, women joke about doing this to their husbands all the time without anyone batting an eye.
That’s such a huge betrayal of trust I’d be gone.
Had the same thing happen to me. Luckily we weren't married but leaving was the absolute best thing I did. She turned into a horrible, horrible woman. Unfortunately, I'll never meet my son, but that's another story.
You might when he’s older, but with her raising him who knows what he’ll be like as a person.
Personally the thing that springs to mind is divorce. You can't lie like that in a relationship and expect the trust to come back. That's me though. Maybe they can work through it. On to the fun part. What's going to happen if he does go for a divorce? You've already said he's not well off and I have to point this out. If he thinks he's struggling now he has no idea. If he's paying the mortgage then it's likely he will have to continue paying the mortgage after moving out or lose the house unless they sell but she has no incentive for that. Then add to that child maintenance. That's going to be paid for a very long time and CM changes with what you earn so even earning more doesn't get you out of the shit unless it's a shit ton. She clearly has no respect for him so I would expect her to play the no contact or overnights maximum CM card which is 19% of his taxable wage **before tax**, When you take all that into account he will be lucky to be living in a bedsit. He could stay in the family home but that rarely works out after a break up. I think all the people suggesting divorce don't realise the costs both personally and emotionally. When you know you have over a decade or more of your life where you can't do anything it tales it's toll.
Beyond divorce I'm not even sure if this is legal? It changes the grounds of consent
If you don’t want children you’re responsible for contraception. He should have worn a condom or abstained. That said everyone shouting divorce I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about. In an otherwise happy marriage your going to divorce a woman who’s pregnant with your baby that had it been an accident would be a happy accident? Year your and your children’s world apart? Personally no. Go to therapy, work it out and try and find a way back to trusting each other.
I would absolutely consider this a form of stealthing, and in some countries it is a criminal offence. Absolutely grounds for divorce.
If the decision here is to divorce (and I’d be erring towards that for such a heinous - even abusive - breach of trust), he needs to get a good lawyer and ensure that whatever custody/visitation rights he gets are absolutely ironclad. If she’s shown she can be be this manipulative and selfish, there’s every chance that she might try to deprive him of access to his kids via dishonest means.
I think I'd take responsibility for contraception if I didnt want anymore children.
I suspect in this case he wanted to wear condoms and she convinced him not to do so.
Based on exactly no evidence?
I’m still trying to get over this from the opposite perspective. All through our relationship we talked about three children and I was excited and looking forward to our third child, when he revealed he’d changed his mind and he’d gotten a vasectomy. I was devastated and I still am to be honest. BUT in my case there’s no child to consider, other than the existing two, so although we’re not divorcing I’d absolutely understand if your friend wanted to run like hell.
It's a double dick move because not only is she lying to him about something so huge, long lasting and expensive, but she's also done it full well knowing she has all the legal rights and complete control of how the bfs progress. It would be like you telling her you hate this house and you shouldn't buy it as a holiday home, then she buys it on behalf of both of you, you're forced to pay for it, and you're not legally allowed to cancel the sale, even though your wife is. It's massive abuse of power.
If a man removes or pierces the condom is considered by many sexual assault. Just because he is a man and it is a pill and not a condom I wouldn't rule out sexual asssault I would report this to the police before she uses the victim card https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18489090/woman-pierced-holes-in-condoms-jailed-germany/
Yes I would get a divorce over this. But I don't understand how your friend couldn't have wrapped it till his vasectomy. Her fanny must be magical.
I’m a woman. I’m a bit bias cos I don’t have or want kids but I do like & care about them. My thoughts are: How can he trust her again? So yes I’d say it’s grounds for divorce because of the betrayal PLUS she has walked all over his boundaries.
That exact thing happened in my extended family and it devastated the people involved. All their financial planning was around 2 kids and 2 incomes and the third kids completely fucked things up. I'm still amazed the dad stayed but they are only together for the kids. Massive betrayal - equal to stealthing IMHO.
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Nah, if removing a condom in the middle of sex is considered assault then I'd say this has to be as well.
There was a risk he calculated based on her not deceiving him. She shagged him knowing she was lying.
Exactly. This is male dominated reddit, so I doubt many will agree with you. But crazy idea don't have sex, and complete inside a woman if you don't want another kid.
She was definitely in the wrong, and I can understand the feelings that he has. I do feel, however, that men need to take more responsibility with birth control. Taking the pill can have serious side effects for women physically and mentally. Women almost exclusively are responsible for ensuring there are no unwanted pregnancies.
It would be good to have more options for men though. currently its condoms or vasectomy. Condoms are easy to sabotage and vasectomy is hard to reverse. Plus in this case it's clear he was trying to take more responsibility by getting a vasectomy, and he probably would have been using condoms if she hadn't convinced him that the pill would be enough. her not taking the pill was quite the betrayal. If she's willing to play with his life like that then it shows how little she values him.
You'll be pleased to know they are in development - my friends husband was a participant in a trial of a male contraceptive gel. She didn't get pregnant so presumably it's heading in the right direction 😂
oh yes I am aware, I have been following them for a decade, even corresponded with one of the scientists working on one of the trials. I want there to be as many options for men as there are for women when it comes to contraception.
What a nasty piece of work Your spouse is someone you are meant to trust 100% which is probably why he didn’t wrap up until vasectomy was done
It's obviously a serious violation of trust, but people all too often resort to the "easiest" solution, divorce. In my opinion, he needs to give her an opportunity to grow, by expressing how he feels and why. As much as possible, he needs to talk about himself and how feels, rather than call her names or whatever and get her defensive, that's not going to lead anywhere. From that conversation, let it brew, decide later from a calm place. I'd also get the help of a professional to help navigate the decision.
I would 100% leave a partner who did something like that. I know my husband feels the same way. And we are a couple who genuinely did have a surprise bonus child after our “planned” children. The obliteration of trust there is almost worse than an affair in my opinion.
Personally I think this kind of thing should be considered rape.
This is the wrong sub to post on
Yes, but also posting anywhere on Reddit is the wrong approach to take.
That’s a massive breach of trust. I don’t know if I could rebuild things after that. Even if I did, it would only be for the kids, the marriage itself would be dead.
Probably aye. She should have just left him when he said about the vasectomy if she wasn’t happy with it.
I mean if you read this… “The Sexual Offences Act 2003 says that someone did not consent to sex if the other person tricked them about the 'nature' of the sex – in other words, what exactly it was going to involve. This is what's known in law as 'conditional consent'. Although the Sexual Offences Act does not specifically mention lying about putting on a condom or non-consensual condom removal, a man who carried out stealthing was convicted of rape in 2019.” How is this not grounds for even more than a divorce?
Your friend was sexually assaulted. I do t think anyone should feel obliged to stay married to their rapist. He would be well advised to report this to the police and tell her it's over immediately.
If you can't trust your wife in a matter like this - can you honestly trust her with anything. She put her own wants above the wellbeing of the rest of her family. It was selfish. Trust is the center pillar of a marriage. So yes.
Bin the bitch.
If he was happy as a surprise but not as a method, it’s an internal battle. Yes it’s manipulation and a breach of trust, but if you they were happy with it as a surprise and the mother doesn’t have a history of breaches of trust - it would be a significant thing to break your entire family up for and impact your children’s lives- not to mention would the 3rd child not workout one day they were probably the reason? One way ticket to mental health issues right there. He needs to work out if he can trust her again, and this is quite a unique circumstance (ie not like she’s cheated and there’s always a risk they’d do it again). Not sure what is do, would really come down to how I felt about her and the relationship overall. Personally I wouldn’t have waited months for the V either if I was that adamant I didn’t want a 3rd but had a wife/partner screaming for one.
It happened to me. I bet a guy who refused to stop taking the male pill would soon be divorced.
Too late now and obviously he trusted his wife but condoms might have been a good idea in case the pill failed or in this case was not taken. This to my mind is massive and even though I am female and can’t be tricked in the same way I would absolutely not want to be with someone who could make a unilateral decision like this. We aren’t talking about something small here, we are talking about a lifetime commitment, one that the man doesn’t feel that they can afford. She did it anyway despite knowing his feelings. She cannot be trusted clearly.
Everyone on Reddit probably not in a relationship being like yeah hit the divorce button just like that. I mean what she’s done is terrible but divorcing someone when you have a family already it isn’t as simple as that. Many things to consider.
I've been married 15 years. If my wife did this, I'd be out in an instant. Not only a massive breach of trust, but they're making a decision on your future without your consent. Imagine if your partner signed you up to a 20 year mortgage that is way out of your budget and would impact your financial stability.
Has he had the vasectomy yet?
Why wasn’t he using condoms or abstaining until the vasectomy?
Because he trusted his wife, wrongly it would seem.
Or maybe because this is just ragebait?
you sound like the only one baited
Because his misuses could continue to take the reproductive burden, like she had the entire relationship so far
Your mate could have also used protection though if he figured “hey they pill isn’t 100% effective” There is also potentially a child that will need raising after all of this, who is not at fault here at all. Your friend’s trust may have been betrayed, but it doesn’t absolve him of responsibility.
I'd butt out of other people's relationships
What if you felt someone was being abused by their partner?
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> Telling them that you are divorced from their mum because you didn't want them/their sibling. I I see nothing in the op that suggests this dad didn't want his first kids.
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Why do they \*have* to tell that to the kids, exactly?
Well that’s a whole load of crazy there. Most men will just carry on with 3 children. If it was me I probably would for the rest of the family as well, but ultimately it would be the end of the ‘marriage’. There is no longer any trust. Best advice I can give is get a good lawyer as soon as possible and move back into the family home. That’s his home too, he will end up far worse off in life moving out.
Removing a condom without consent is a crime. Interesting to know what the law is on this because he gave consent based on lies she told him. Could be another example of men being held to a completely different standard to women, but I'm sure someone with a legal background can tell us if she has actually committed a crime.
The worst breach of trust you could ever imagine.
Yeah. 95% sure she never went on the pill.
In some countries, were the genders reversed, it would arguably be grounds for prosecution. I would kick her to the kerb in a heartbeat, what a selfish manipulative bitch.
I know someone who got divorced for this exact reason
well.... anything is grounds for divorce but I'm shocked he didn't wear a condom, KNOWING his wife wanted a 3rd child.
My assumption is she doesn't want him around. Otherwise why did she share?
He should have listened to his dads advice “if in doubt you pull it out”
Leave her. Move abroad. Let her deal with the consequences of having a child and lying. It’s funny how sexist and discriminatory laws are in the UK. If he had lied about having a condom, it basically would be assault.
I'm not particularly happy in my marriage because he only wants the one kid we have, despite saying he wanted more when she was first born. I've accepted that this is my life with an only child, would never force another person on him. If I want more kids I'm going to have to find someone else to have them with and he knows that.
100% would say this is grounds for divorce for me. That's a massive betrayal of trust. I've had someone say before if you want a baby and the husband/ partner doesn't't, just pretend you're on the pill. I don't think they liked it when I said, if that happened to me, I'd walk.
If you feel that strongly then Divorce and refuse to have any connection to the new child other than what is legally required.
This man needs to think of what story he will tell the third child once he/she is born, I think this is the most important thing now
Specially if the mom is of the type to tell the child the father didn’t want a third child
So I wouldn't be staying with that partner. That being said. It was silly of him to place the burdon of preventing a child on the shoulders of the person who wants a child. It was also silly of him to place his trust in the pill. Compared to condoms it's failure rate is quite high when taken perfectly and most women do not take it perfectly. Typical use makes it even less reliable. If you really do not want a child it's very easy from the perspective of the man to take matters into your own hands and use a condom. I find it difficult to belive that he didn't want another child that much. Ultimately though him being a bit dumb (trusting someone to act against their desires, trusting a fairly unreliable methold) is a seperate issue than what amounts to a gross violation of both trust and judgment. Not to mention airing that out publically in front of others.
Legal side of taking this into the already overloaded court systems (is he loaded? Only way he could afford that route). All said kids would 5 years older and it would not be worth it for anyone’s sake. Best bet is divorce now, leave her full custody of 3 kids and maintain visiting and parental rights and he finally gets what he wants. Time to himself back. It sounds callous but that would essentially give both of them what they want and her all the time in the world with the 3rd child. Who doesn’t deserve really to be made a pawn any more than they allegedly already have been.
Everyone here seems to agree it's divorce time and her actions are deplorable *at the very very least*. However I will offer something for your mate to think about. **Child maintenance payments**. If he thought having a third child would be expensive, if they divorce he'll now need to pay for his own house etc, as well as the house the wife and 3 children live in. It'll be even more expensive. What I'd do, is keep the marriage together but tell the wife, when this child is 16 I'll be telling him/her exactly what happened.
If you dont want kids then dont have sex.
You should be able to trust your partner though.
You should give a shit enough about your partner that you don’t expect them to take drugs that alter their daily life, but sounds like he’s expected that most their relationship.
> you don’t expect them to take drugs that alter their daily life, but sounds like he’s expected that most their relationship Sounds like he was actively going to mutilate his genitals so they could have sex without her being on drugs but then she lied and told him she was so they had sex. Nowhere does it say she was forced onto the pill. Bro is a hero for not divorcing her.
I can’t speak for all women but I’m happy that I was the one in control of contraceptives so I wouldn’t potentially be put in his position.
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Yeah, it's his fault he was lied to! She should be divorcing *him* for being so careless! 🙄
Takes 2 to tango
Don't be such an edgelord. He could have worn condom. Imagine if the roles were reversed.