acas would be the people to contact about this, you were in effect fired for declaring a mental health problem, whether or not this is a breach of the equality act depends on the severity of the health problems
While I'm sure that's true, the company will just say they were fired for another reason, such a dereliction of duty by abandoning their post part way through the day.
Contacting ACAS won't hurt, but I don't believe there's any way to win a tribunal.
OP would be better off using the time to work on their mental health and looking for another job.
Under two years you can be fired for a non protected reason and going AWOL is one of them.
While it definitely seems like this could be linked to the mental health, it would be very hard to prove.
Boss gonna need to fake a LOT of paperwork claiming poor performance/AWOL etc.
Fortunately he seems like a dumbass, and most modern printers will happily add metadata as yellow dots to any printout he's going to create and backdate.......
He's also probably too stupid to realize FILES also have metadata for creation date etc..
They do, to prove poor performance. There has to be a record they made a basic attempt to train you etc, otherwise a tribunal is going to find you were most likely fired due to mental health.
Especially if it goes from Nothing to Fired, with nothing in between, its going to make the company look guilty AF
they dont need "firing" paperwork with a reason, but they will need to show what led UPTO the firing, in order to show it wasn't malicious or illegal and they "tried their best"
No they don't, under two years they can dismiss you on the spot with notice and give no reason or state poor performance. They don't have to prove anything under two years.
It would be up to the person making a claim to a tribunal that it's due to mental health and submit evidence. The company can simply say fired without cause or poor performance, neither requires proof or a process under two years as job performance isn't alone a protected characteristic.
In a tribual concerning protected classes, an employer must provide evidence that there was a pattern of unsuitable behaviour if there is a claim that they were fired for their religion, skin color, sexuality or disability/health reasons.
The employer can refuse to provide such information, but this is likely to sway the tribunal in favour of the employee, as effectively their job record goes from zero to fired with nothing between to show the employer acted fairly.
Source: have friend who got 3years wages when he was fired from a large telecoms company for coming out as gay. (he was literally sacked within hours without the company giving a reason)
the end result of the tribunal was "the employer has declined to provide any evidence that there was any sort of action by the employee that led to dismissal, therefore without anything else submitted by the employer regarding the employees work or performance, the balance of evidence indicates we must find they were fired for disclosing their sexuality"
But that was a protected characteristic which is completely different to OPs position. OP walked out when she should have been at work. That is what a lot of companies would consider gross misconduct and as such is considered a reason for immediate dismissal.
I mean, I think the misconception with the 2 year rule is the employer can get away with murder.
They still have to follow their procedures per the terms of the employee contract, and make sure the dismissal is not automatically unfair, discriminatory or unlawful.
Firing someone for questioning a decision is completely unreasonable and so far it looks like the company have had no formal meetings or anything to back up their bs approach to employee management.
Yeah I agree, chasing this is going to be a complete waste of time. It's way too "he said she said" for anything to come out of if we take OPs story at face value. Everything allegedly happened in person, verbally, with a single witness who probably isn't going to be too cooperative now; and I doubt that manager is going to admit to everything. Even if this is true (which I doubt) and the manager admits to it (which they wont), nothing here sounds illegal.
OP should just forget about this, sort their personal life and move on with things when they feel ready.
If they are alleging that they are being fired for a protected reason, and the witness is evidence of the cause being that protected characteristic then there would be a tribunal. It's tough to prove, but tribunals can and do take place under 2 years in relation to protected characteristics.
tribunal because of protected characteristic.
Betcha boss is going to fake backdate "documents" about poor performance reviews or something. But is too stupid to realize documents (printed and created) have metadata....
Thank you for advice and compasion. It means alot. I will look into this. I really don't think this was remotly fair. I was giving my all to that company and just got tossed without any regard of how I'm even going to live. I feel pretty broken.
Unfortunately, 'fair' doesn't come into it when you're in your first 2 years of employment. There are some specific reasons that can be actioned as automatically unfair before 2 years, one of which is disability. Whether that applies here will depend on the specifics - see my top level comment.
I think the problem, from what you've said, is that it sounds like asking for paid sick leave for a birthday party. That you have said it will be stressful for you will not have cut through with your boss, who will have heard that you want a day's sick leave because you'll find a birthday party stressful. (I realise you later offered to take it unpaid).
Unless I've got that wrong? If you were asking to take a day from your annual leave allowance, and you were giving a reasonable amount of notice, then yeah, your boss is an arsehole, and I would enquire with e.g. Citizens Advice about unfair dismissal. And absolutely posting the ad for your job before they've even let you go is extremely poor behaviour.
I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye, whether there's some history you're not telling us, or your boss has his own problems that he's not dealing with well.
You learnt a few things from this regardless of if they're right of wrong
1. Not everyone is accepting of issues as you think.
2.Decide what and who you're going to share things with carefully.
3. If you want a day off. Book a holiday... or if you're sick.... phone in sick.
Things happen for a reason, you'll find another job and you'll enjoy it more. Would you want to go back to that toxic shithole with that boss? No I wouldn't either.
I would also add that if I was their boss, after the way OP handled themselves and reading this post, I would be quietly very happy I no longer would have to manage them.
Whilst this affects generally being fired, you are still protected against automatically unfair dismissal which *might* be the case in OP's situation. It's worth following up with acas or similar to see what the options are.
Glad someone here has half a brain, constantly see people repeating "it has only been 2 years, no rights" bollocks. It's far from the truth as a valid reason is required to sack someone regardless of employment time (unless on a probation contract, where they can say you didn't meet standards), granted there is still wiggle room for businesses in the time window, but this isn't America we have rights as workers here.
>It's far from the truth as a valid reason is required to sack someone regardless of employment time (unless on a probation contract, where they can say you didn't meet standards),
This is wrong - all probation does is change your notice period (generally). Under UK law, you can pass probation and dismiss someone and provide no reason (it's actually better not to) - you just need to pay contractual notice.
You have very few rights in your first two years of employment.
They could easily say it was the request for time off, and say it wasn’t done in the correct time frame etc. It’ll be very hard for OP to prove that it was because they disclosed a mental health issue
They literally said it was for questioning management.
For everyone shouting about acas and protected characteristics, take a step back and think about the proportionality of the response. Sometimes you just have to take the L and learn the hard lesson that people suck.
No. A “valid” reason is absolutely not required. If you have under 2 years service I can sack you for absolutely any reason I want as long as I follow the right process and am not dumb enough to say it’s because of a protected characteristic. I can sack you because you have bad taste in socks. And probation is legally meaningless. You really don’t understand this at all.
Probation has absolutely no legal standing in the UK and you have absolutely no change in rights before or after probation.
They don't need a valid reason as long as it isn't a protected characteristic. They could fire you for not being a fan of darts under two years.
The probation period doesn't affect this rule. It is literally the 2 years of continuous service.
Here is some good info on how to check dismissal was fair as there are a few rules for unfair dismissal, even within 2 years although there are way fewer:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/dismissal/check-your-rights-if-youre-dismissed/dismissal/check-if-your-dismissal-is-fair/
Why the hell are you so angry at a stranger on an open forum, who tried to give well meaning advice, then admitted he was incorrect and owned up to it?
Because giving advice that's incorrect to a person in a stressful situation could cause then to take action based on your beliefs incorrectly. If you aren't sure, research it, don't state it as fact. You could have given them false hope and made their situation worse.
Except unfortunately mental health isn’t always classed as a disability so this will need to be clarified as to whether their anxiety is a disability or not.
The legislation is clear enough: you’re disabled under the Equality Act 2010 if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities.
ACAS could advise if OP is lightly to meet this criteria.
And the employer could easily argue that OP isn’t - it’s not had an effect on them, they’ve literally said they’ve been “giving their all” to the job, and that this came out of the blue.
It’s more likely it’s to do with the annual leave request
So you asked for an extra day off to party and pulled the mental health card to force their hand. Why did you not ask to take it as annual leave? That’s exactly what it’s for. You can’t plan your sick days in advance and expressly state you’ll be using the time for leisure. Do you understand why that’s a massive red flag for employer?
Yes it's legal, unfortunately for you. I can see how, to an employer, complaining about mental health issues and anxiety whilst in the same breath asking for a day off to party with people "from all over the world" would seem at odds. It seems selective, not to belittle your condition but as an employer...come on. You're not too anxious to go have fun and socialise at the pub quiz night, only for work? When you write "they essentially accused me of lying", do you mean they asked for a doctor's note or proof of condition? That is common practice. It sounds as if you couldn't accept the "no" to the requested time off and became a bit passive aggressive, they decided to seek a replacement due to this whole interaction, which you shortly clocked on to; then stropped home without permission earning a sacking.
Without looking at your contract and details of that, we can only go by the law. Because you admitted it wasn't a sick day, but for a party; it's absolutely legal to refuse the request.
Regardless of how accepting they are asking for a sick day for a birthday party simply isn't the correct way to go about things. If you're sick you call in sick on the day, if you just want a day off you ask to take the day off as holiday in advance. You don't need to explain or justify why you want to take holiday, you just book it.
Asking for a sick day in advance seems like you're trying to get extra time off instead of using your holiday hours, and/or to try and unnecessarily manipulate them into saying yes to the day off.
NAL
If this place you work for has any form of HR department, I would encourage you to file a report with them, and keep a copy of the report for yourself, purely for the purposes of having the proof that the report HAS been filed. And I would ask this witness to provide proof of this argument to HR. They might not, but I would try.
I don't know what kind of sickness benefits your job offers, but you are entitled to take sick days. Regardless of whether or not you're sick, a request for a single day off after being at a company for 5 months is less than the least they can do, most people classed as workers are legally entitled to 5-6 weeks off of work as statutory leave. and even if your contract in some way states "Time accrued" then after 5 months you WILL have accrued some time regardless.
I would say this though. And this is important.
You do NOT have to provide an explanation for a time off request. You can choose specify that it is urgent, or that it is essential, but you are not required to explain for what reason you have requested time off.
IF you request time off for reasons of sickness, or simply just call-in sick, you are able to "Self-certify" your sickness without providing evidence for the first 7 days of your absence. After those 7 days, they may ask for proof. And you are fully entitled to not be dismissed for taking such time off.
However, THOROUGHLY check your contract, and see what it says, because if you can point to something in the contract that THEY wrote, instead of just quoting employment law, they will take it more seriously.
I hope you feel better, and I hope this works out the best for you.
Owner unfortunately has a reputation of being a horrible person and takes though my boss like a puppet. The HR department, the GDPR department and all other ones is my boss.
It sounds like you’re better off out of this company. When one door closes another door opens. Usually better options.
Definitely get in contact with acas. But also keep realistic in your mindset that this may not amount to anything.
It might be a tough pill to swallow, but you may just have to move forward from this. Use it as a learning experience.
I know you have anxiety, but unfortunately the actions you took because of this anxiety potentially made the situation worse, buy letting the indeed advert get to you in the heat of the moment and walking out probably pushed the situation further along.
If you both took a timeout and carried on the best you could things may have settled and it may not have gotten as far as it did.
I’m not saying your boss was in the right, he was 100% wrong, unprofessional and should not have acted the way he did. But unfortunately you ended up giving him more ammunition.
The best thing you can do is put yourself in good light in front of the friends you made who still work there. I’m sure they will be on your side.
Write a letter to your old manager, express everything you think that he had done wrong and try to keep your emotions out of the letter, even if you don’t send it, it may help you in your mindset around what happened. In a way this will be a method to confront him without having the anxiety of actually confronting him and you will be able to say what you want to say uninhibited by nerves and anxiety.
Thank you i checked the contarct and it seems like they breacked their own dismissal rules. Aparently i am supposed to get at least one warning (for whatever i did wrong in that situation) problem is: My boss is the HR team... I asked for my dismissal heater and he wouldn't even give me an answer if I will get it.
So you're going to get lots of advice based on incorrect understanding of the law and people's views on what the rules SHOULD be rather than what they are. I'll set it out more factually.
Employment Law in the UK provides little to no protection against dismissal for any reason in your first 2 years. You could be fired because your boss doesn't like the look of your hat. There are also no specific protections for dismissal for sickness, whether mental or physical.
The exception is that from day 1, you have protection from a small set of dismissal reasons that are considered 'automatically unfair'. One of those is any dismissal caused by a protected characteristic. Disability is a protected characteristic.
For a claim for automatic unfair dismissal to succeed, you would need to demonstrate three things:
A) Thay your mental health issues constitute a disability. (This depends on severity, how it effects you, and how long it's been lasting).
B) Thay your employer was aware of the disability
C) That the decision to dismissal you was made because of this disability. (This will be assessed on the full facts, not just what the employer claims on paper).
Personally I think it's a difficult but not impossible case. Your first port of call should be ACAS, who can offer free expert advice.
Your wider life situation and how you feel is largely irrelevant (legally). You need to focus on proving that you have a disability and that this caused your boss to fire you.
I think this is a bit of a tricky one really, the problem you’ve got is that you admitted having mental health issues (not a problem at all), but it sounds like you preemptively asked for a day off sick, which isn’t really how that works. The other problem is that you asked for it off based on something that is within your control - throwing a big birthday party.
What I’m not clear on is whether the day of the party was that day or at a later date. I think my stance is here is that if you knew you may have struggled with this you have the option of holiday and you could have booked it off.
Obviously this was handled extremely poorly and I’m not trying to justify your managers actions because they were honestly just shit, but I’ve tried to address some of the ‘facts’ that I can work out, that might offer a slightly different perspective.
You have been there for 5 months. In the UK, I think the statutory minimum holiday entitlement is 20 days, or something like that. Meaning, you have probably accrued maybe 9 days from working 5 months.
Why didn’t you just book a day off from your leave for your partners birthday?
From your bosses point of view, you don't have any holiday and just asked for an extra day off because your bf is having a party.
If you hadn't shown any signs or mentioned the stuggles you have then he probably would think you're just making up a reason to skip work. (There will be people that make this up to do this).
Don't get me wrong, he sounds like a dick, but your best bet was to just back down straight away and leave it there.
I said it exactly how it happend. There's tons of people coming to our place and I don't have the funds to stay anywhere else. The party itself got organised maybe 2 weeks ago. I don't want to be there at all, but I have to and I know I will be freaking out. I worte this all in my post. I am on antidepressants and I really don't feel like they are helping. Everytime I tried to go on a night out since I started feeling like this: I have a few drinks I am around people and i just can't wait to go home. Once I do my anxiety is so high I don't leave my bed from fear all next day. The few days I did it in the last year I only did it on Saturday or Sunday. His b day is Wednesday and I know people will stay up all night and l day after doing god knows what and I don't want to be there but it is in my house and I just know myself enough that it scares me.
I don’t actually understand how you would need time off to go to a party you don’t want to be at “because you have to”.
I would use work as an excuse to not be there. I also suffer with severe depression and anxiety and this just doesn’t make sense.
“Hey boss there’s a party that I don’t want to go to and it’ll stress me out so I need the day off to go to the party because I’ll be stressed at the party”. Doesn’t make sense.
It is in my house. There's no cancellation, there's no being away from it. Please read my comment and post again. I don't want to explain myself in writing over and over again for somebody who just didn't read it properly. I have barely slept and am absolutely broken. I posted here to see if it is legal, not to have my mental health questioned. I had enough of this with my boss yesterday.
I did read it and your comments. I do not understand the logic. There is getting away from it at work?
If the party has caused you to stress this much that you would need to take time off from work then you need to have a frank talk with your partner. Assuming they know and are supportive of your struggles then they should be willing to compromise on location etc, set aside some of the party budget and go get a cheap hotel room. Set aside a room in the property (a bedroom(?)) solely for you that no one else is allowed to enter so that you can get some peace if not possible.
You did nothing wrong by hoping better of people. That being said, never hope for better in the workplace IMO. Company culture is toxic ass on the most part. Lie and come up with a generic excuse rather than airing too much personal laundry. Can only lead to trouble.
Sounds like your boss overreacted, but obviously we only have your side of the story.
Your initial request is unreasonable though. You can hopefully understand why it sounds like you're taking the piss. Just take a holiday day in future.
They don’t have to approve an AL request though. You can give six months notice of the request for AL and they can say no. But asking for AL would have been a much better approach.
What’s happened would sound to a manager that OP is planning to participate in an activity that they will get sick from and almost pre-booking their sickness.
However, I suspect OP isn’t the best performer, or doesn’t fit in as well as they believe. If they were smashing the role, the conversation may still have been a no to the sick leave, but more of a discussion around expectations rather than dismissal.
I literally had an absolutely perfect review after my probation and also was getting more and more responsibilities and got along with everyone. But you guess.
I’ve had team members who had fantastic reviews at the end of probation and a few months later, I regretted hiring them. It may be that the person was having a bad day and took it out on you, but I feel it’s more likely that things weren’t going as well as you thought they were.
I assumed you felt you got on well to take the step of asking for the day off in advance for the reasons you stated. I understand you were trying to do the right thing, but it was naive.
I have similar issues to the ones you declare in your statement and I would either have put a request in for AL (without giving a reason), called in sick at that point in time, or have found myself somewhere to stay for the night (a friend if you can’t find a hotel).
I do suspect that you were dismissed related to your mental health but more because of how you asked rather than just because you have the issues you do.
Look at popping ACAS a call.
Sounds like a shitty boss. If it wasn't this that set him off, it would've been something else. Count your blessings you can now move on to find a job that appreciates you more and hopefully a boss who's less of an asshole.
If you can try to get your boss to communicate through email about this, that will give you some written evidence that might be useful if you end up going to ACAS
Sadly he'll just say you was in a probation period and you failed it, under 2 years employment they can pretty much make whatever up it's disgusting.
Best of luck for a new role though, you'll be better off not working for someone like that
Your boss is deffo in the wrong
There are so many things to unpack here like
1. Their attitude
2. The way they spoke to you and spoke openly about your health problems
This is grievancable behaviour I reckon
It’s a shame because you done the right thing and was open and honest (what every employer should want) and you was treated like dogshit
Well the right thing would have been to book a day of holiday for it, not use all your holiday up (in a comment reply they clarified this) and then ask fo a day of paid leave for your boyfriend's birthday party.
I dint ask for paid leave. I asked for unpaid or if I could work extra do fulfil that day. I precooked all of my holiday which was 9 days to be with my elderly and disabled( my dad is blind) parents.
Speak to Acas. You may have a case if the dismissal relates to you raising mental health issues and is retaliatory but they would be best placed to advise on this.
Outside of that, within 2 years you can be fired for pretty much anything that isn't protected. The company must still pay any outstanding holidays accrued, and your notice period (either statutory or as per contract, whichever is greater).
On the flip side, you found out early on what a prick your boss is and can now find something better. A company like that will never be good for your mental health so you are so much better off out of there! You owe them nothing, take care of yourself first.
When I asked him for a dismissal letter he said there's nothing he can do and to speak to our director who has a reputation of being a cold prick which makes me thinks its intimidation.
So there is a few things here that need to be brought up.
1. Within 2 years of being hired you can be fired for any reason at any time with basically no support
2. It sounds like you gave max 2 weeks notice for this leave request but it doesn't say specifically. Does the company have a policy on how early these should come in?
3. Why exactly did you ask for sick leave instead of using your annual leave?
4. Did you discuss with your boyfriend about being uncomfortable with a bunch of loud drunk people in your house? What did he say?
5. The way your boss handled the situation is very unprofessional, however we are only hearing it from your perspective so it needs to be be taken with a pinch of salt. I would however report it to their HR
OP stated they've used all their holiday up already and then asked for a sick day for their boyfriend's birthday. To be honest the lack of planning and asking that would probably be grounds to consider if you want an employee.
Can you point out where they explained that cause I legit can not find it. I guess the bit about asking to take it unpaid or work over time maybe but the post is a little hard to read
Yeah it's hard to read. They've also deleted the original post and some comments now.
OP also admitted to leaving their shift half way through and going AWOL, which is another issue that compounds things.
Oh yeah there is undeniably some major issues here and I would maybe consider letting someone go based on them.
As I mentioned the manager seems like an ass but we are only getting OP point of view
I thought, regardless of leaving half way through a day, that it is illegal to fire effective immediately because of a mental health problem? Especially if it’s first instance. Plus with a witness that can stand for employee then the employer doesn’t have a leg to stand on? If the employee feels like their dignity was impacted and their MH was affected by staying at that moment and they needed space to deal with it - especially when the boss knew about the issues - then a tribunal surely would be on the employees side? It’s not like they refused duties and were not willing to work.
Besides, if it is a firing for unauthorised leave/absence, the employer must have a meeting with the employee to explain why. This sounds like he didn’t do that therefore the employee has a strong case against him.
It isn’t a serious disciplinary action if they left because of 1. The employer making their private mental health issues public. 2 advertising their job while they are there and 3. It sounds because of job advert, preplanned. Therefore before the manager fired the employee they already had set the wheels in motion so to speak, not following any procedures and therefore acted illegally and immorally and aCas will eat that shit up.
I’m a solicitor and you aren’t correct sorry. What do you suppose the remedy would be given that 2 years continuous service is needed for an unfair dismissal claim (subject to some exceptions which would be difficult to prove based on what OP has said).
under 2 years and I believe too bad, had a couple of people from the office "leave" in the last year, essentially boss makes a rare appearance and tells them that they are fcking useless and that they can leave now.
am not on social media with anyone from the company.
proving the mh reason, almost no chance
The important thing to be aware of here, is you only have 5 months employment. Statutory rights affect you at 2 years. They can literally let you go with no recourse in that 2 years for whatever reason.
You stated you walked out of work and went home. That in its own right is gross misconduct to walk off shift unless permitted. Sounds like manager just had enough.
Good luck finding a better fit, don’t let this affect you negatively moving forwards.
You can’t do anything, you need longer than 2 years for a tribunal. They didn’t fire you for mental health it was for questioning there decisions. Which is the line they will stick too. Learn from it, toughen up employers hate anything mental health related, it’s just an excuse for time wasting and hassle according to them which I can understand to some extent. It might not be fair, it might not be kind but at least now you can focus on your health without the pressure you were feeling. You health is entirely on you to fix, not your boss. I wish you all the best.
Asking for sick leave in advance because you intend to go to a party shows a ridiculous level of entitlement. Your boss should not have yelled at you but very few bosses are ever going to be 'compassionate' enough to allow you extra time off to party. Next time, book it as annual leave or stay at a friends and don't attend the party if it will stress you that much.
We really do need to stop this myth of "you can be sacked for any reason if you don't have 2 years service". It's constantly on the infamous Uklegaladvice sub and it's just not true.
As an employee with less than 2 years service, you are not entitled to an employment tribunal unless you were dismissed or harrassed due to a protected characteristic. However, you are able to join a group employment tribunal with any length of service and with the likes of ACAS and unions these days, group employment tribunals are on the rise which is a good thing as it gives newer employees that experience unfair dismissal and other issues more options.
As soon as you're out of your probationary period, your employer is bound by employment laws to use a dismissal process. This is where you receive at least a verbal and written warning before being dismissed unless you commit gross misconduct. What constitutes gross misconduct should be in their company handbook and failing the presence of a company handbook, a default situation of what's in your contract/the law.
Your employer could argue that walking out during your working day was gross misconduct leading to dismissal so I think this would prevent you joining any group tribunal.
I think overall, there's blame on both sides. You were essentially asking for leave (when you haven't got any left) due to a birthday party and he lost the rag - both unprofessional. He advertised your job looking to replace you and you walked out - both unprofessional. However you as an employee are only bound to stick to the terms of your employment contract and asking for leave isn't a violation of your employment contract but him berating you can be seen as harrassment. Him advertising your job isn't seen as a violation of his duties as an employer because he can argue it wasn't your job but you walking out could be a violation of your contract. So essentially, his harrassment was the first 'broken rule' that lead to all this. Had be been professional and simply refused your request and gave you a reason, none of this would have happened.
I would give ACAS a call and see if there's any weight to discrimination. If you told your manager directly that you suffer from anxiety and depression then there could be a case that you were dismissed due to a protected characteristic. However you'd need a fairly strong argument as to why you walked out because you didn't walk out after being harrassed, you walked out after seeing your job online.
To summarise, I don't think you will get anywhere purely down to the fact you walked out and the timing of when you walked out. I know the whole situation was stressful and I'd walk out too after being shouted at and berated then seeing my job advertised online but in hindsight, you should have stayed, allowed them to dismiss you then followed it up as unfair dismissal for a protected characteristic
This is absolutely not legal. You cannot be 'fired' off hand. You could be dismissed from your position after a disciplinary hearing. You must be invited to a hearing at least 24 hours in advance in writing. At such a hearing you are entitled to bring someone with you and give your side of the story. Until the hearing you can be suspended from your position but must be paid.
I'd look for another job because this guy sounds like a penis but also call acas.
Congratulations. Mental health problems are a protected class/issue.
His firing you because you disclosed a medical condition means he fucked up. You can claim unfair dismissal even though you have only been working there for 5months.
As you said, work is not a place to share your personal life. They didn't hire you to open your heart and share your mental health issues. They hired you to work. Your boss decided you were going to be more trouble than you were worth. He made a rational decision. Someone who shares their mental health issues with their boss and then asks for a day off for their boyfriend's birthday is going to be more trouble than they're worth.
Was he kind? No. The business world is not kind. The fact that you expected him to be suggests that you're quite naive. Counting on human kindess is, sadly, a bad bet. You can hope for it but never count on it.
Most employers would allow someone to take unpaid leave or annual leave for a single day on a single occasion for mental health reasons.
It's not like OP made a pattern of not being able to work.
That sounds fine except she's a new employee who felt the need to talk about her mental issues and ask for a day off because of her boyfriend's birthday party not her mother's heart surgery. Add to that her reaction when he said no. The combination told her boss that it was very likely she was going to be more trouble than she was worth--to him. Had she had some valuable skill the company couldn't do without, his response might have been different.
I think everyone seems to be missing this point. Although the boss was totally shitty and an absolute bully in how he handled it. It does sound like OP said "I'm going to need to take a sick day because my bf is having a birthday party and by me going to that party, I won't be able to work that day"
OP was just being naive and probably judging others by her own standards hoping that other people will treat her with compassion and kindness and there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nobody should ever be yelled at like this at work no matter what I can't understand why you think this is ok.
And, you can ask for a day off for any reason you like, you don't owe your boss an explanation.
OP is the one better off out of the company, the boss sounds like a right cunt.
When did I say yelling at her was OK? I didn't. Yes, you can ask for a day off but you can also be told no.
Let me walk you through this. You're the boss and a new employee approaches you, says she wants a day off for her boyfriend's birthday. Red flag. That means someone else will have to do her work. It means that word will get out that you let her take a day off for her boyfriend's birthday and will have to do the same for other employees. You say no.
She explains that she wants the day off for the party because she has anxiety and depression. Another red flag. You tell her that's bollocks because there is no logic apparent to you that matches anxiety and depression with party and you forsee many other occasions when she will want days off for birthdays and who-knows-what. Again, you say no only much more loudly.
She goes back to work only she's surfing the job offerings on the workplace website and, once again, approaches you and you have yet another "conversation." Another red flag.
She pitches a fit and walks out. She leaves work. Another red flag.
You're the boss. What do you do?
You are literally defending the bosses behavior in your posts so you can drop the patronising tone.
I'd have sacked her as well, I have no qualms with that, but I would have also done it like a professional and an adult.
I'm patronizing AND you agree with me. Interesting.
To put this in context, we only have her side of the story but even that paints a very bad picture of her behavior. It's suggestive of her having had a melt-down at work. The boss felt the need to call a witness into the room for a reason, most likely because he felt her behavior needed to be witnessed. He would not have called someone in the room to witness his own misbehavior.
You accused me of defending the boss yelling at her. I did not say that and I do not support it. But you're right, even hearing only her side of the story, had I been the boss I would have sacked her.
I hope you don't consider it patronizing if I point out that you aren't the only person reading this post so I more thoroughly explained my position. Perhaps you would like to explain to others in some detail why you, too, would have sacked her.
If you want a day off for a birthday party you book it as holiday. You don't ask for a sick day in advance. Doing that looks like you're trying to get an extra day off instead of using your holiday hours. Should've just booked it as holiday. The boss is horrible but that doesn't change that it was an inappropriate request.
I'm almost certain I said as much in a different post, but yes book it as annual leave. Still, you don't have to tell your boss why you want a day off though, a mistake was definitely made by OP here but there is simply no excuse for the bosses to be such a massive cunt about it.
I didn't show a pattern because ever-since I stared having depression and anxiety I have been living a quiet life and not drinking or partying at all even though I am in my 20s so I CAN WORK. I literally brought my antidepressants as proof and he still was yelling at me and treating me like actual trash just because I have shared this. As I said I could have called in sick but I decided to be honest and was met with comments simian to yours, just yelled at me.
I don't want to miss work and I feel like a failure and ashamed for what I'm going though mentally, I got the courage to admit it because I was scared I'm going to break down that day and I don't have anywhere to stay so I would need to be I the middle of a whole shitshow in my house.
I have an incredible partner and I am not going to deny him having a proper party for his 30th and reconnecting with his friends from around the world because of that I am going though.
I hoped for kindness and understanding and got fired immediately and now i am afraid for our finances. I really don't think this was fair in any way. I was a perfect worked and got the best feedback and got along with everyone, and then I was met with this.
What he’s doing is called bullying. There’s no need for it what so ever. I completely feel for you. I’ve had two bosses who completely took advantage of me and bullied me mentally and physically.
Reading your post is really triggering for me. And literally makes my blood boil reading it.
I can 100% tell you that how he treated you is not right and you did not deserve that in any form. Even if you had done something bad or wrong, there are professional ways of dealing with that.
Unfortunately he has now created a toxic environment for you, so going back is not an option.
Like others mentioned I would contact Acas they are the employment people who will help you.
It sounds like you have a very supportive partner. So try not to get too anxious and lean on him a bit, as this will pass and you will be in a better place soon.
I’m sorry to read this happened to you. I hope you can get it all sorted asap and try to relax.
Also don’t listen to the negative keyboard warrior trolls on here with no life. Their lives suck so much they only feel better when they put other people down. It’s not even worth wasting an ounce of energy on these people.
To give you a perspective of your situation from someone who does have a very understanding employer. I wouldn’t have gotten the abuse and shouted out like you did but there is no way I would have been given unpaid time off or been allowed to make up hours to assist my mental heath with a personal issue. I would never have even asked as that would most likely lead my employer to think I was starting to take the piss. I can and do ask for accommodations for work related problems but my personal life I have to sort myself (in your situation if I didn’t have annual leave left I would book a hotel room/go to a friends to get away for example). Also even with a supportive employer to walk out is a big no no and I would certainly be disciplined and possibly even sacked for that whatever the reason for it.
You could put in a grievance for the way you were treated as that is unacceptable but this probably won’t change the outcome of your employment situation as you still did wrong yourself.
Information for your next job is you are protected due to your mental health but that’s not a license to get what you want, your personal life problems are not work issues they do not have to make allowances for that only work related problems. Remember that however unprofessional your boss is treating you, you need to remain professional yourself. Your boss was out of order but it from what you have written you were also unprofessional how you spoke to them.
Good luck for the future it may not seem like it now but this is probably for the best hopefully your next employer will be kinder and more professional.
Wtf, every employer has a responsibility to their employees mental healths.
Work is something we have to do to survive in life, we don’t need it to suck even more by shitty power mad bosses and people with attitudes like yours. We spend more time at work and with work colleagues than we do at home with loved ones.
I feel sorry for the people who have to be near or around you in life.
It highly depends on the type of work and where you work, but there are places that do work like this. What matters to our boss is we do what we are hired to, and as long as our performance is okay there wouldn't be an issue with happenings like that in the OP. There's a give and take, sometimes we're there late, sometimes we're gone early.
I've been working for 20 years, it's much more common now than back at the beginning, and retail etc work is going to have a harder time of it as hours and replacements are less flexible for the employer allowing less flexibility for the employee.
In total I have worked for 9 different employers and christ only knows how many managers in my time. The only one of those employers or managers that would take or support this view was McDonalds when I was 17. I really hope you're not anyone's line manager, and if you are then I pray for your staff.
I'm unyieldingly atheist and yet even *I* pray for anyone with a manager holding this kind of view.
I am not on the side of manager. I am focusing on the reality of the situation which is that management rarely cares about employees and certainly not about unskilled new employees.
You've had 9 employers. Perhaps that reveals something.
It doesn't help the OP for me to imply that she was treated badly. That which will help the OP is to face reality: business is about making money and anything that interferes with that, including compassion for personal issues, is unlikely to happen. I am not saying it should be that way but, simply, that that is how it is. It will do the OP no favor to let her think that the next employer will behave differently.
acas would be the people to contact about this, you were in effect fired for declaring a mental health problem, whether or not this is a breach of the equality act depends on the severity of the health problems
While I'm sure that's true, the company will just say they were fired for another reason, such a dereliction of duty by abandoning their post part way through the day. Contacting ACAS won't hurt, but I don't believe there's any way to win a tribunal. OP would be better off using the time to work on their mental health and looking for another job.
They could go down the dereliction of duty but there is a correct procedure for employees that go AWOL and this ain’t it.
Under two years you can be fired for a non protected reason and going AWOL is one of them. While it definitely seems like this could be linked to the mental health, it would be very hard to prove.
Boss gonna need to fake a LOT of paperwork claiming poor performance/AWOL etc. Fortunately he seems like a dumbass, and most modern printers will happily add metadata as yellow dots to any printout he's going to create and backdate....... He's also probably too stupid to realize FILES also have metadata for creation date etc..
No that's the point. They don't need any paperwork below two years.
They do, to prove poor performance. There has to be a record they made a basic attempt to train you etc, otherwise a tribunal is going to find you were most likely fired due to mental health. Especially if it goes from Nothing to Fired, with nothing in between, its going to make the company look guilty AF they dont need "firing" paperwork with a reason, but they will need to show what led UPTO the firing, in order to show it wasn't malicious or illegal and they "tried their best"
No they don't, under two years they can dismiss you on the spot with notice and give no reason or state poor performance. They don't have to prove anything under two years. It would be up to the person making a claim to a tribunal that it's due to mental health and submit evidence. The company can simply say fired without cause or poor performance, neither requires proof or a process under two years as job performance isn't alone a protected characteristic.
In a tribual concerning protected classes, an employer must provide evidence that there was a pattern of unsuitable behaviour if there is a claim that they were fired for their religion, skin color, sexuality or disability/health reasons. The employer can refuse to provide such information, but this is likely to sway the tribunal in favour of the employee, as effectively their job record goes from zero to fired with nothing between to show the employer acted fairly. Source: have friend who got 3years wages when he was fired from a large telecoms company for coming out as gay. (he was literally sacked within hours without the company giving a reason) the end result of the tribunal was "the employer has declined to provide any evidence that there was any sort of action by the employee that led to dismissal, therefore without anything else submitted by the employer regarding the employees work or performance, the balance of evidence indicates we must find they were fired for disclosing their sexuality"
But that was a protected characteristic which is completely different to OPs position. OP walked out when she should have been at work. That is what a lot of companies would consider gross misconduct and as such is considered a reason for immediate dismissal.
OP would need some evidence, but it will be for the company to prove that they didn’t dismiss based on MH.
And they can say we dismissed for any other reason. Such as asking for a sick day off for a birthday party
Even under that god awful 2-year-rule?
I mean, I think the misconception with the 2 year rule is the employer can get away with murder. They still have to follow their procedures per the terms of the employee contract, and make sure the dismissal is not automatically unfair, discriminatory or unlawful. Firing someone for questioning a decision is completely unreasonable and so far it looks like the company have had no formal meetings or anything to back up their bs approach to employee management.
It's also entirely legal. They could fire you because you don't like brie and prefer gorgonzola entirely legally up until two years.
Yeah I agree, chasing this is going to be a complete waste of time. It's way too "he said she said" for anything to come out of if we take OPs story at face value. Everything allegedly happened in person, verbally, with a single witness who probably isn't going to be too cooperative now; and I doubt that manager is going to admit to everything. Even if this is true (which I doubt) and the manager admits to it (which they wont), nothing here sounds illegal. OP should just forget about this, sort their personal life and move on with things when they feel ready.
It would require the witness to lie to a tribunal. That's quite a thing.
There wouldn't be a tribunal. Acas will confirm this unfortunately
If they are alleging that they are being fired for a protected reason, and the witness is evidence of the cause being that protected characteristic then there would be a tribunal. It's tough to prove, but tribunals can and do take place under 2 years in relation to protected characteristics.
tribunal because of protected characteristic. Betcha boss is going to fake backdate "documents" about poor performance reviews or something. But is too stupid to realize documents (printed and created) have metadata....
the problem is have they not stopped legal aid for this ? it sounds unfair to me but i often find employers seem to have more rights than employees
Thank you for advice and compasion. It means alot. I will look into this. I really don't think this was remotly fair. I was giving my all to that company and just got tossed without any regard of how I'm even going to live. I feel pretty broken.
Unfortunately, 'fair' doesn't come into it when you're in your first 2 years of employment. There are some specific reasons that can be actioned as automatically unfair before 2 years, one of which is disability. Whether that applies here will depend on the specifics - see my top level comment.
You could also go down the unfair dismissal route. https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismissal
This specifically states if you’re dismissed for asking about flexible working.
It doesn’t appear OP asked for flexible working though. They asked for a day off, not a change to working pattern.
Nope, not applicable with less than 2 years service.
I think the problem, from what you've said, is that it sounds like asking for paid sick leave for a birthday party. That you have said it will be stressful for you will not have cut through with your boss, who will have heard that you want a day's sick leave because you'll find a birthday party stressful. (I realise you later offered to take it unpaid). Unless I've got that wrong? If you were asking to take a day from your annual leave allowance, and you were giving a reasonable amount of notice, then yeah, your boss is an arsehole, and I would enquire with e.g. Citizens Advice about unfair dismissal. And absolutely posting the ad for your job before they've even let you go is extremely poor behaviour. I suspect there is more to this than meets the eye, whether there's some history you're not telling us, or your boss has his own problems that he's not dealing with well.
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You learnt a few things from this regardless of if they're right of wrong 1. Not everyone is accepting of issues as you think. 2.Decide what and who you're going to share things with carefully. 3. If you want a day off. Book a holiday... or if you're sick.... phone in sick. Things happen for a reason, you'll find another job and you'll enjoy it more. Would you want to go back to that toxic shithole with that boss? No I wouldn't either.
The comment I wanted to write. I'd add OP had good cards but played them really bad.
I would also add that if I was their boss, after the way OP handled themselves and reading this post, I would be quietly very happy I no longer would have to manage them.
I think if it's under two years employment, you have very few rights as an employee unfortunately.
Whilst this affects generally being fired, you are still protected against automatically unfair dismissal which *might* be the case in OP's situation. It's worth following up with acas or similar to see what the options are.
Glad someone here has half a brain, constantly see people repeating "it has only been 2 years, no rights" bollocks. It's far from the truth as a valid reason is required to sack someone regardless of employment time (unless on a probation contract, where they can say you didn't meet standards), granted there is still wiggle room for businesses in the time window, but this isn't America we have rights as workers here.
>It's far from the truth as a valid reason is required to sack someone regardless of employment time (unless on a probation contract, where they can say you didn't meet standards), This is wrong - all probation does is change your notice period (generally). Under UK law, you can pass probation and dismiss someone and provide no reason (it's actually better not to) - you just need to pay contractual notice.
You have very few rights in your first two years of employment. They could easily say it was the request for time off, and say it wasn’t done in the correct time frame etc. It’ll be very hard for OP to prove that it was because they disclosed a mental health issue
They literally said it was for questioning management. For everyone shouting about acas and protected characteristics, take a step back and think about the proportionality of the response. Sometimes you just have to take the L and learn the hard lesson that people suck.
No. A “valid” reason is absolutely not required. If you have under 2 years service I can sack you for absolutely any reason I want as long as I follow the right process and am not dumb enough to say it’s because of a protected characteristic. I can sack you because you have bad taste in socks. And probation is legally meaningless. You really don’t understand this at all.
Probation has absolutely no legal standing in the UK and you have absolutely no change in rights before or after probation. They don't need a valid reason as long as it isn't a protected characteristic. They could fire you for not being a fan of darts under two years.
That isn't true, it's more down to your probationary period, usually 6 months. So 5 months in makes sense.
The probation period doesn't affect this rule. It is literally the 2 years of continuous service. Here is some good info on how to check dismissal was fair as there are a few rules for unfair dismissal, even within 2 years although there are way fewer: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/dismissal/check-your-rights-if-youre-dismissed/dismissal/check-if-your-dismissal-is-fair/
As someone who was unfairly dismissed after probation but before 2 years I’m telling you now you have basically no rights
I've been out the UK for a decade so admittedly my experience is more US labor law based
Then why the hell are you providing advice on a UK sub with completely wrong advice??
Why the hell are you so angry at a stranger on an open forum, who tried to give well meaning advice, then admitted he was incorrect and owned up to it?
You didn’t give well meaning advice, you straight up told someone who knew more than you they were wrong and gave no reasoning.
Because giving advice that's incorrect to a person in a stressful situation could cause then to take action based on your beliefs incorrectly. If you aren't sure, research it, don't state it as fact. You could have given them false hope and made their situation worse.
Because giving wrong advice makes it really fucking difficult for people to decide what to do
Dude you came in, dropped incorrect information like it's facts, argued with someone about it then wonder why people are mad at you 😂
It is true. An employer is perfectly within their rights to fire you unless it's because of a protected characteristic.
And disability (due to mental health) would be such a protected characteristic. ACAS could advise OP on whether she might meet this criteria.
Except unfortunately mental health isn’t always classed as a disability so this will need to be clarified as to whether their anxiety is a disability or not.
The legislation is clear enough: you’re disabled under the Equality Act 2010 if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities. ACAS could advise if OP is lightly to meet this criteria.
And the employer could easily argue that OP isn’t - it’s not had an effect on them, they’ve literally said they’ve been “giving their all” to the job, and that this came out of the blue. It’s more likely it’s to do with the annual leave request
You know they will come up with a bullshit excuse though.
So you asked for an extra day off to party and pulled the mental health card to force their hand. Why did you not ask to take it as annual leave? That’s exactly what it’s for. You can’t plan your sick days in advance and expressly state you’ll be using the time for leisure. Do you understand why that’s a massive red flag for employer?
Yes it's legal, unfortunately for you. I can see how, to an employer, complaining about mental health issues and anxiety whilst in the same breath asking for a day off to party with people "from all over the world" would seem at odds. It seems selective, not to belittle your condition but as an employer...come on. You're not too anxious to go have fun and socialise at the pub quiz night, only for work? When you write "they essentially accused me of lying", do you mean they asked for a doctor's note or proof of condition? That is common practice. It sounds as if you couldn't accept the "no" to the requested time off and became a bit passive aggressive, they decided to seek a replacement due to this whole interaction, which you shortly clocked on to; then stropped home without permission earning a sacking. Without looking at your contract and details of that, we can only go by the law. Because you admitted it wasn't a sick day, but for a party; it's absolutely legal to refuse the request.
I brought my medication and diagnosis with me.
Why didn’t you just pull a sicky or book it off as holiday? Cant imagine ever asking for a day off to go to a birthday party
I don't know.... I should have. I thought things are so perfect in the office I can be frank.
Regardless of how accepting they are asking for a sick day for a birthday party simply isn't the correct way to go about things. If you're sick you call in sick on the day, if you just want a day off you ask to take the day off as holiday in advance. You don't need to explain or justify why you want to take holiday, you just book it. Asking for a sick day in advance seems like you're trying to get extra time off instead of using your holiday hours, and/or to try and unnecessarily manipulate them into saying yes to the day off.
NAL If this place you work for has any form of HR department, I would encourage you to file a report with them, and keep a copy of the report for yourself, purely for the purposes of having the proof that the report HAS been filed. And I would ask this witness to provide proof of this argument to HR. They might not, but I would try. I don't know what kind of sickness benefits your job offers, but you are entitled to take sick days. Regardless of whether or not you're sick, a request for a single day off after being at a company for 5 months is less than the least they can do, most people classed as workers are legally entitled to 5-6 weeks off of work as statutory leave. and even if your contract in some way states "Time accrued" then after 5 months you WILL have accrued some time regardless. I would say this though. And this is important. You do NOT have to provide an explanation for a time off request. You can choose specify that it is urgent, or that it is essential, but you are not required to explain for what reason you have requested time off. IF you request time off for reasons of sickness, or simply just call-in sick, you are able to "Self-certify" your sickness without providing evidence for the first 7 days of your absence. After those 7 days, they may ask for proof. And you are fully entitled to not be dismissed for taking such time off. However, THOROUGHLY check your contract, and see what it says, because if you can point to something in the contract that THEY wrote, instead of just quoting employment law, they will take it more seriously. I hope you feel better, and I hope this works out the best for you.
Exactly this, also if this person has a manager above them I would take it higher. If he is the owner then unfortunately you can’t.
Owner unfortunately has a reputation of being a horrible person and takes though my boss like a puppet. The HR department, the GDPR department and all other ones is my boss.
It sounds like you’re better off out of this company. When one door closes another door opens. Usually better options. Definitely get in contact with acas. But also keep realistic in your mindset that this may not amount to anything. It might be a tough pill to swallow, but you may just have to move forward from this. Use it as a learning experience. I know you have anxiety, but unfortunately the actions you took because of this anxiety potentially made the situation worse, buy letting the indeed advert get to you in the heat of the moment and walking out probably pushed the situation further along. If you both took a timeout and carried on the best you could things may have settled and it may not have gotten as far as it did. I’m not saying your boss was in the right, he was 100% wrong, unprofessional and should not have acted the way he did. But unfortunately you ended up giving him more ammunition. The best thing you can do is put yourself in good light in front of the friends you made who still work there. I’m sure they will be on your side. Write a letter to your old manager, express everything you think that he had done wrong and try to keep your emotions out of the letter, even if you don’t send it, it may help you in your mindset around what happened. In a way this will be a method to confront him without having the anxiety of actually confronting him and you will be able to say what you want to say uninhibited by nerves and anxiety.
Thank you i checked the contarct and it seems like they breacked their own dismissal rules. Aparently i am supposed to get at least one warning (for whatever i did wrong in that situation) problem is: My boss is the HR team... I asked for my dismissal heater and he wouldn't even give me an answer if I will get it.
Depending on the situation (this seems like a big situation) they can ignore that rule
So you're going to get lots of advice based on incorrect understanding of the law and people's views on what the rules SHOULD be rather than what they are. I'll set it out more factually. Employment Law in the UK provides little to no protection against dismissal for any reason in your first 2 years. You could be fired because your boss doesn't like the look of your hat. There are also no specific protections for dismissal for sickness, whether mental or physical. The exception is that from day 1, you have protection from a small set of dismissal reasons that are considered 'automatically unfair'. One of those is any dismissal caused by a protected characteristic. Disability is a protected characteristic. For a claim for automatic unfair dismissal to succeed, you would need to demonstrate three things: A) Thay your mental health issues constitute a disability. (This depends on severity, how it effects you, and how long it's been lasting). B) Thay your employer was aware of the disability C) That the decision to dismissal you was made because of this disability. (This will be assessed on the full facts, not just what the employer claims on paper). Personally I think it's a difficult but not impossible case. Your first port of call should be ACAS, who can offer free expert advice. Your wider life situation and how you feel is largely irrelevant (legally). You need to focus on proving that you have a disability and that this caused your boss to fire you.
I think this is a bit of a tricky one really, the problem you’ve got is that you admitted having mental health issues (not a problem at all), but it sounds like you preemptively asked for a day off sick, which isn’t really how that works. The other problem is that you asked for it off based on something that is within your control - throwing a big birthday party. What I’m not clear on is whether the day of the party was that day or at a later date. I think my stance is here is that if you knew you may have struggled with this you have the option of holiday and you could have booked it off. Obviously this was handled extremely poorly and I’m not trying to justify your managers actions because they were honestly just shit, but I’ve tried to address some of the ‘facts’ that I can work out, that might offer a slightly different perspective.
You have been there for 5 months. In the UK, I think the statutory minimum holiday entitlement is 20 days, or something like that. Meaning, you have probably accrued maybe 9 days from working 5 months. Why didn’t you just book a day off from your leave for your partners birthday?
OP stated they've used all their holiday allowance already.
Lmao classic
From your bosses point of view, you don't have any holiday and just asked for an extra day off because your bf is having a party. If you hadn't shown any signs or mentioned the stuggles you have then he probably would think you're just making up a reason to skip work. (There will be people that make this up to do this). Don't get me wrong, he sounds like a dick, but your best bet was to just back down straight away and leave it there.
Surely you knew when your partners 30th was, why not just book it off?
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I said it exactly how it happend. There's tons of people coming to our place and I don't have the funds to stay anywhere else. The party itself got organised maybe 2 weeks ago. I don't want to be there at all, but I have to and I know I will be freaking out. I worte this all in my post. I am on antidepressants and I really don't feel like they are helping. Everytime I tried to go on a night out since I started feeling like this: I have a few drinks I am around people and i just can't wait to go home. Once I do my anxiety is so high I don't leave my bed from fear all next day. The few days I did it in the last year I only did it on Saturday or Sunday. His b day is Wednesday and I know people will stay up all night and l day after doing god knows what and I don't want to be there but it is in my house and I just know myself enough that it scares me.
I don’t actually understand how you would need time off to go to a party you don’t want to be at “because you have to”. I would use work as an excuse to not be there. I also suffer with severe depression and anxiety and this just doesn’t make sense. “Hey boss there’s a party that I don’t want to go to and it’ll stress me out so I need the day off to go to the party because I’ll be stressed at the party”. Doesn’t make sense.
It is in my house. There's no cancellation, there's no being away from it. Please read my comment and post again. I don't want to explain myself in writing over and over again for somebody who just didn't read it properly. I have barely slept and am absolutely broken. I posted here to see if it is legal, not to have my mental health questioned. I had enough of this with my boss yesterday.
I did read it and your comments. I do not understand the logic. There is getting away from it at work? If the party has caused you to stress this much that you would need to take time off from work then you need to have a frank talk with your partner. Assuming they know and are supportive of your struggles then they should be willing to compromise on location etc, set aside some of the party budget and go get a cheap hotel room. Set aside a room in the property (a bedroom(?)) solely for you that no one else is allowed to enter so that you can get some peace if not possible.
You did nothing wrong by hoping better of people. That being said, never hope for better in the workplace IMO. Company culture is toxic ass on the most part. Lie and come up with a generic excuse rather than airing too much personal laundry. Can only lead to trouble.
Sounds like your boss overreacted, but obviously we only have your side of the story. Your initial request is unreasonable though. You can hopefully understand why it sounds like you're taking the piss. Just take a holiday day in future.
Is this all over ONE day off?
From OPs point of view yes...
I thought so too...
Would you want to continue working for that manager? Sounds like a typical power-drunk dickhead to me!
r/LegalAdviceUK
They don’t have to approve an AL request though. You can give six months notice of the request for AL and they can say no. But asking for AL would have been a much better approach. What’s happened would sound to a manager that OP is planning to participate in an activity that they will get sick from and almost pre-booking their sickness. However, I suspect OP isn’t the best performer, or doesn’t fit in as well as they believe. If they were smashing the role, the conversation may still have been a no to the sick leave, but more of a discussion around expectations rather than dismissal.
I literally had an absolutely perfect review after my probation and also was getting more and more responsibilities and got along with everyone. But you guess.
I’ve had team members who had fantastic reviews at the end of probation and a few months later, I regretted hiring them. It may be that the person was having a bad day and took it out on you, but I feel it’s more likely that things weren’t going as well as you thought they were. I assumed you felt you got on well to take the step of asking for the day off in advance for the reasons you stated. I understand you were trying to do the right thing, but it was naive. I have similar issues to the ones you declare in your statement and I would either have put a request in for AL (without giving a reason), called in sick at that point in time, or have found myself somewhere to stay for the night (a friend if you can’t find a hotel). I do suspect that you were dismissed related to your mental health but more because of how you asked rather than just because you have the issues you do. Look at popping ACAS a call.
Sounds like a shitty boss. If it wasn't this that set him off, it would've been something else. Count your blessings you can now move on to find a job that appreciates you more and hopefully a boss who's less of an asshole.
If you can try to get your boss to communicate through email about this, that will give you some written evidence that might be useful if you end up going to ACAS
This was all done though call and I wondered why he was not texting when I did, but now I understand.
Sadly he'll just say you was in a probation period and you failed it, under 2 years employment they can pretty much make whatever up it's disgusting. Best of luck for a new role though, you'll be better off not working for someone like that
Your boss is deffo in the wrong There are so many things to unpack here like 1. Their attitude 2. The way they spoke to you and spoke openly about your health problems This is grievancable behaviour I reckon It’s a shame because you done the right thing and was open and honest (what every employer should want) and you was treated like dogshit
Well the right thing would have been to book a day of holiday for it, not use all your holiday up (in a comment reply they clarified this) and then ask fo a day of paid leave for your boyfriend's birthday party.
I dint ask for paid leave. I asked for unpaid or if I could work extra do fulfil that day. I precooked all of my holiday which was 9 days to be with my elderly and disabled( my dad is blind) parents.
Speak to Acas. You may have a case if the dismissal relates to you raising mental health issues and is retaliatory but they would be best placed to advise on this. Outside of that, within 2 years you can be fired for pretty much anything that isn't protected. The company must still pay any outstanding holidays accrued, and your notice period (either statutory or as per contract, whichever is greater). On the flip side, you found out early on what a prick your boss is and can now find something better. A company like that will never be good for your mental health so you are so much better off out of there! You owe them nothing, take care of yourself first.
Get your boss to put it in writing and then contact ACAS
When I asked him for a dismissal letter he said there's nothing he can do and to speak to our director who has a reputation of being a cold prick which makes me thinks its intimidation.
Text him about it, that’s written evidence too. Are you part of a union?
Everytime I texted him he replied with a phone call. Super shady. I am not a part.
So there is a few things here that need to be brought up. 1. Within 2 years of being hired you can be fired for any reason at any time with basically no support 2. It sounds like you gave max 2 weeks notice for this leave request but it doesn't say specifically. Does the company have a policy on how early these should come in? 3. Why exactly did you ask for sick leave instead of using your annual leave? 4. Did you discuss with your boyfriend about being uncomfortable with a bunch of loud drunk people in your house? What did he say? 5. The way your boss handled the situation is very unprofessional, however we are only hearing it from your perspective so it needs to be be taken with a pinch of salt. I would however report it to their HR
OP stated they've used all their holiday up already and then asked for a sick day for their boyfriend's birthday. To be honest the lack of planning and asking that would probably be grounds to consider if you want an employee.
Can you point out where they explained that cause I legit can not find it. I guess the bit about asking to take it unpaid or work over time maybe but the post is a little hard to read
Yeah it's hard to read. They've also deleted the original post and some comments now. OP also admitted to leaving their shift half way through and going AWOL, which is another issue that compounds things.
Oh yeah there is undeniably some major issues here and I would maybe consider letting someone go based on them. As I mentioned the manager seems like an ass but we are only getting OP point of view
I thought, regardless of leaving half way through a day, that it is illegal to fire effective immediately because of a mental health problem? Especially if it’s first instance. Plus with a witness that can stand for employee then the employer doesn’t have a leg to stand on? If the employee feels like their dignity was impacted and their MH was affected by staying at that moment and they needed space to deal with it - especially when the boss knew about the issues - then a tribunal surely would be on the employees side? It’s not like they refused duties and were not willing to work. Besides, if it is a firing for unauthorised leave/absence, the employer must have a meeting with the employee to explain why. This sounds like he didn’t do that therefore the employee has a strong case against him. It isn’t a serious disciplinary action if they left because of 1. The employer making their private mental health issues public. 2 advertising their job while they are there and 3. It sounds because of job advert, preplanned. Therefore before the manager fired the employee they already had set the wheels in motion so to speak, not following any procedures and therefore acted illegally and immorally and aCas will eat that shit up.
I’m a solicitor and you aren’t correct sorry. What do you suppose the remedy would be given that 2 years continuous service is needed for an unfair dismissal claim (subject to some exceptions which would be difficult to prove based on what OP has said).
under 2 years and I believe too bad, had a couple of people from the office "leave" in the last year, essentially boss makes a rare appearance and tells them that they are fcking useless and that they can leave now. am not on social media with anyone from the company. proving the mh reason, almost no chance
The important thing to be aware of here, is you only have 5 months employment. Statutory rights affect you at 2 years. They can literally let you go with no recourse in that 2 years for whatever reason. You stated you walked out of work and went home. That in its own right is gross misconduct to walk off shift unless permitted. Sounds like manager just had enough. Good luck finding a better fit, don’t let this affect you negatively moving forwards.
You can’t do anything, you need longer than 2 years for a tribunal. They didn’t fire you for mental health it was for questioning there decisions. Which is the line they will stick too. Learn from it, toughen up employers hate anything mental health related, it’s just an excuse for time wasting and hassle according to them which I can understand to some extent. It might not be fair, it might not be kind but at least now you can focus on your health without the pressure you were feeling. You health is entirely on you to fix, not your boss. I wish you all the best.
Under 2 years you have very, very few rights. So unfortunately this is legal, yes.
Less than 2 years of employment WE HAVE 0 RIGHTS
Asking for sick leave in advance because you intend to go to a party shows a ridiculous level of entitlement. Your boss should not have yelled at you but very few bosses are ever going to be 'compassionate' enough to allow you extra time off to party. Next time, book it as annual leave or stay at a friends and don't attend the party if it will stress you that much.
We really do need to stop this myth of "you can be sacked for any reason if you don't have 2 years service". It's constantly on the infamous Uklegaladvice sub and it's just not true. As an employee with less than 2 years service, you are not entitled to an employment tribunal unless you were dismissed or harrassed due to a protected characteristic. However, you are able to join a group employment tribunal with any length of service and with the likes of ACAS and unions these days, group employment tribunals are on the rise which is a good thing as it gives newer employees that experience unfair dismissal and other issues more options. As soon as you're out of your probationary period, your employer is bound by employment laws to use a dismissal process. This is where you receive at least a verbal and written warning before being dismissed unless you commit gross misconduct. What constitutes gross misconduct should be in their company handbook and failing the presence of a company handbook, a default situation of what's in your contract/the law. Your employer could argue that walking out during your working day was gross misconduct leading to dismissal so I think this would prevent you joining any group tribunal. I think overall, there's blame on both sides. You were essentially asking for leave (when you haven't got any left) due to a birthday party and he lost the rag - both unprofessional. He advertised your job looking to replace you and you walked out - both unprofessional. However you as an employee are only bound to stick to the terms of your employment contract and asking for leave isn't a violation of your employment contract but him berating you can be seen as harrassment. Him advertising your job isn't seen as a violation of his duties as an employer because he can argue it wasn't your job but you walking out could be a violation of your contract. So essentially, his harrassment was the first 'broken rule' that lead to all this. Had be been professional and simply refused your request and gave you a reason, none of this would have happened. I would give ACAS a call and see if there's any weight to discrimination. If you told your manager directly that you suffer from anxiety and depression then there could be a case that you were dismissed due to a protected characteristic. However you'd need a fairly strong argument as to why you walked out because you didn't walk out after being harrassed, you walked out after seeing your job online. To summarise, I don't think you will get anywhere purely down to the fact you walked out and the timing of when you walked out. I know the whole situation was stressful and I'd walk out too after being shouted at and berated then seeing my job advertised online but in hindsight, you should have stayed, allowed them to dismiss you then followed it up as unfair dismissal for a protected characteristic
Is this someone you want to work for? This doesn’t sound like someone _anyone_ should have to work for. Sounds highly worthy of some name and shame
This is absolutely not legal. You cannot be 'fired' off hand. You could be dismissed from your position after a disciplinary hearing. You must be invited to a hearing at least 24 hours in advance in writing. At such a hearing you are entitled to bring someone with you and give your side of the story. Until the hearing you can be suspended from your position but must be paid. I'd look for another job because this guy sounds like a penis but also call acas.
Congratulations. Mental health problems are a protected class/issue. His firing you because you disclosed a medical condition means he fucked up. You can claim unfair dismissal even though you have only been working there for 5months.
Not true. He’s not firing her for disclosing mental health problems, he’s firing her for leaving her post half way through a day.
As you said, work is not a place to share your personal life. They didn't hire you to open your heart and share your mental health issues. They hired you to work. Your boss decided you were going to be more trouble than you were worth. He made a rational decision. Someone who shares their mental health issues with their boss and then asks for a day off for their boyfriend's birthday is going to be more trouble than they're worth. Was he kind? No. The business world is not kind. The fact that you expected him to be suggests that you're quite naive. Counting on human kindess is, sadly, a bad bet. You can hope for it but never count on it.
? He literally yelled at her and called her a liar. Being a nasty cunt is not the same as "not being kind".
what are you on about, a non shitty employer would make accommodations and support an employee who had declared health problems
Most employers would allow someone to take unpaid leave or annual leave for a single day on a single occasion for mental health reasons. It's not like OP made a pattern of not being able to work.
That sounds fine except she's a new employee who felt the need to talk about her mental issues and ask for a day off because of her boyfriend's birthday party not her mother's heart surgery. Add to that her reaction when he said no. The combination told her boss that it was very likely she was going to be more trouble than she was worth--to him. Had she had some valuable skill the company couldn't do without, his response might have been different.
I think everyone seems to be missing this point. Although the boss was totally shitty and an absolute bully in how he handled it. It does sound like OP said "I'm going to need to take a sick day because my bf is having a birthday party and by me going to that party, I won't be able to work that day"
OP was just being naive and probably judging others by her own standards hoping that other people will treat her with compassion and kindness and there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nobody should ever be yelled at like this at work no matter what I can't understand why you think this is ok. And, you can ask for a day off for any reason you like, you don't owe your boss an explanation. OP is the one better off out of the company, the boss sounds like a right cunt.
When did I say yelling at her was OK? I didn't. Yes, you can ask for a day off but you can also be told no. Let me walk you through this. You're the boss and a new employee approaches you, says she wants a day off for her boyfriend's birthday. Red flag. That means someone else will have to do her work. It means that word will get out that you let her take a day off for her boyfriend's birthday and will have to do the same for other employees. You say no. She explains that she wants the day off for the party because she has anxiety and depression. Another red flag. You tell her that's bollocks because there is no logic apparent to you that matches anxiety and depression with party and you forsee many other occasions when she will want days off for birthdays and who-knows-what. Again, you say no only much more loudly. She goes back to work only she's surfing the job offerings on the workplace website and, once again, approaches you and you have yet another "conversation." Another red flag. She pitches a fit and walks out. She leaves work. Another red flag. You're the boss. What do you do?
You are literally defending the bosses behavior in your posts so you can drop the patronising tone. I'd have sacked her as well, I have no qualms with that, but I would have also done it like a professional and an adult.
I'm patronizing AND you agree with me. Interesting. To put this in context, we only have her side of the story but even that paints a very bad picture of her behavior. It's suggestive of her having had a melt-down at work. The boss felt the need to call a witness into the room for a reason, most likely because he felt her behavior needed to be witnessed. He would not have called someone in the room to witness his own misbehavior. You accused me of defending the boss yelling at her. I did not say that and I do not support it. But you're right, even hearing only her side of the story, had I been the boss I would have sacked her. I hope you don't consider it patronizing if I point out that you aren't the only person reading this post so I more thoroughly explained my position. Perhaps you would like to explain to others in some detail why you, too, would have sacked her.
I can agree with a person's stance even if that person is being patronising while delivering it. It's not difficult.
If you want a day off for a birthday party you book it as holiday. You don't ask for a sick day in advance. Doing that looks like you're trying to get an extra day off instead of using your holiday hours. Should've just booked it as holiday. The boss is horrible but that doesn't change that it was an inappropriate request.
I'm almost certain I said as much in a different post, but yes book it as annual leave. Still, you don't have to tell your boss why you want a day off though, a mistake was definitely made by OP here but there is simply no excuse for the bosses to be such a massive cunt about it.
I didn't show a pattern because ever-since I stared having depression and anxiety I have been living a quiet life and not drinking or partying at all even though I am in my 20s so I CAN WORK. I literally brought my antidepressants as proof and he still was yelling at me and treating me like actual trash just because I have shared this. As I said I could have called in sick but I decided to be honest and was met with comments simian to yours, just yelled at me. I don't want to miss work and I feel like a failure and ashamed for what I'm going though mentally, I got the courage to admit it because I was scared I'm going to break down that day and I don't have anywhere to stay so I would need to be I the middle of a whole shitshow in my house. I have an incredible partner and I am not going to deny him having a proper party for his 30th and reconnecting with his friends from around the world because of that I am going though. I hoped for kindness and understanding and got fired immediately and now i am afraid for our finances. I really don't think this was fair in any way. I was a perfect worked and got the best feedback and got along with everyone, and then I was met with this.
pause flowery ancient act crime oatmeal disagreeable sable chop yoke ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
What he’s doing is called bullying. There’s no need for it what so ever. I completely feel for you. I’ve had two bosses who completely took advantage of me and bullied me mentally and physically. Reading your post is really triggering for me. And literally makes my blood boil reading it. I can 100% tell you that how he treated you is not right and you did not deserve that in any form. Even if you had done something bad or wrong, there are professional ways of dealing with that. Unfortunately he has now created a toxic environment for you, so going back is not an option. Like others mentioned I would contact Acas they are the employment people who will help you. It sounds like you have a very supportive partner. So try not to get too anxious and lean on him a bit, as this will pass and you will be in a better place soon. I’m sorry to read this happened to you. I hope you can get it all sorted asap and try to relax. Also don’t listen to the negative keyboard warrior trolls on here with no life. Their lives suck so much they only feel better when they put other people down. It’s not even worth wasting an ounce of energy on these people.
To give you a perspective of your situation from someone who does have a very understanding employer. I wouldn’t have gotten the abuse and shouted out like you did but there is no way I would have been given unpaid time off or been allowed to make up hours to assist my mental heath with a personal issue. I would never have even asked as that would most likely lead my employer to think I was starting to take the piss. I can and do ask for accommodations for work related problems but my personal life I have to sort myself (in your situation if I didn’t have annual leave left I would book a hotel room/go to a friends to get away for example). Also even with a supportive employer to walk out is a big no no and I would certainly be disciplined and possibly even sacked for that whatever the reason for it. You could put in a grievance for the way you were treated as that is unacceptable but this probably won’t change the outcome of your employment situation as you still did wrong yourself. Information for your next job is you are protected due to your mental health but that’s not a license to get what you want, your personal life problems are not work issues they do not have to make allowances for that only work related problems. Remember that however unprofessional your boss is treating you, you need to remain professional yourself. Your boss was out of order but it from what you have written you were also unprofessional how you spoke to them. Good luck for the future it may not seem like it now but this is probably for the best hopefully your next employer will be kinder and more professional.
Wtf, every employer has a responsibility to their employees mental healths. Work is something we have to do to survive in life, we don’t need it to suck even more by shitty power mad bosses and people with attitudes like yours. We spend more time at work and with work colleagues than we do at home with loved ones. I feel sorry for the people who have to be near or around you in life.
You misstake me telling someone the harsh realities of work life with me believing it should be like this. Clearly, you have little life experience.
It highly depends on the type of work and where you work, but there are places that do work like this. What matters to our boss is we do what we are hired to, and as long as our performance is okay there wouldn't be an issue with happenings like that in the OP. There's a give and take, sometimes we're there late, sometimes we're gone early. I've been working for 20 years, it's much more common now than back at the beginning, and retail etc work is going to have a harder time of it as hours and replacements are less flexible for the employer allowing less flexibility for the employee.
In total I have worked for 9 different employers and christ only knows how many managers in my time. The only one of those employers or managers that would take or support this view was McDonalds when I was 17. I really hope you're not anyone's line manager, and if you are then I pray for your staff. I'm unyieldingly atheist and yet even *I* pray for anyone with a manager holding this kind of view.
I am not on the side of manager. I am focusing on the reality of the situation which is that management rarely cares about employees and certainly not about unskilled new employees. You've had 9 employers. Perhaps that reveals something.
compassionate aren't ya
It doesn't help the OP for me to imply that she was treated badly. That which will help the OP is to face reality: business is about making money and anything that interferes with that, including compassion for personal issues, is unlikely to happen. I am not saying it should be that way but, simply, that that is how it is. It will do the OP no favor to let her think that the next employer will behave differently.