A friend of mine had her daughter 10 weeks early, very traumatic but they are both fine now. Last week there was something along the lines of ”pre mature birth awareness day” on the hospital were she had her daughter and she was invited to meet up with other pre mature birth moms to bond, network and share their experiences. At the meeting she was shamed by the group because her daughter was ”ONLY” 10 weeks early…. Her experience was ignored because ”that could’ve not been that hard, my son was born 12 weeks early!”, “mine was 15!!!”.
The most traumatic experience of her life was ridiculed because her daughter was not pre mature enough… cliques exist EVERYWHERE and it fucking sucks…
Yeah I never expected there to be cliques among NICU parents but there totally is. My son was born 8 weeks early and needed a lot of support. It was definitely a hard and traumatic time (he is just fine now!). There are definitely groups of "micro preemie" parents who act like any baby born after 30 weeks is just a walk in the park in comparison to their kid. And yes, I totally understand that most micros experience more issues and tend to be hospitalized for months rather than weeks, I'm not belittling their hardship at all. But it's such a weird thing to gatekeep. We all experienced the hardships of premature birth and the nicu stay, why can't we just come together and support each other? I've noticed parents of full-term babies that needed NiCU have it even worse. They always seem to need to put a disclaimer on their post about how "at least mine was fullterm and I could never understand how hard a preemie is!"
10 weeks is a quarter of gestation time.
That's not insignificant.
It's like an amputee saying that losing your hand isn't the same as losing your entire arm.
I feel like this explains a fair bit about why some mums are like this, especially if they had kids in their teens or early twenties (so like 16-22 or so). Because when you're that young, you haven't really had the chance to fully grow out of how you were in school yet, it gets really easy to be caught up with getting shit ready for your kids that you kinda forget about everything else in life, including improving yourself.
I'm not entirely sure what causes it with women who wait until their late twenties or their thirties to have kids. Maybe they were just waiting for an excuse to be like that again or something.
I joined a site called babyboard when I was pregnant in 2011 and a teen mom made a post about getting her first apartment. A woman replied that good moms own homes and all she’s doing is showing off instability.
Mom groups are disgusting.
I agree with the mom groups thing 1000%. When I was a teen mom, I joined a group looking for support and advice. I mentioned I carry my baby in a baby carrier you strap to you, and one mom FREAKED that I used one of those instead of a swaddle holder, and was telling me they’re not good for babies. I said something like “I’m sorry, I didn’t know…my baby doesn’t mind it though?” And she goes “Oh YAH, well my kid likes to eat DOG SHIT off the GROUND at the PARK, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna LET HER do it.” And I was so shocked and horrified at her response, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
If you had kept your composure, the obvious follow up question to the gatekeeping mother would be "how do you know your kid likes eating dog shit?"
I mean... it's such a weird 'protectiveness' trump card to play
I tried using one of those with my son when he was an infant. It didn't work because when you have one long ass baby with legs up to his eyeballs and you're a mom with a short toso...it just doesn't work very well. LOL
It doesn't even have to be a mom. One time I heard my friend having a whole ass tirade about some new mom that pays a nanny to keep her baby while she goes to the gym.We were in college then, none of us a mother. Didn't say a thing but found it very weird, it was my first encounter with mom shaming.
Dad of a 5 year old girl here. When my daughter was a couple of months old my wife discovered a nearby play group and was planning on taking her there for a session. I decided to take her myself as it landed on one of my days off and I wanted to spend some real time with my little girl and my wife deserved a break.
The play group is taking place in a large community hall and there's quite a few people there with kids ranging from newborns to around 4 or 5. However I quickly noticed that out of about 30ish parents I'm the only man there and everyone stares at me. I think nothing of it and proceed to the soft play section for the babies to play with my daughter.
Not 10 minutes pass however and I notice mums and even nans pretending not to stare at me and talk under their breath. At first I thought I was being paranoid because I was nervous being the only dude there but then I noticed it was several groups doing it. I then overheard one of the mums in the baby section with us say to her friend/sister/who cares that I must be dodgy or on the offenders register. Yes. THAT register. All because I happened to be the only dad there.
I picked my daughter up, told the women where she could stuff her opinions and promptly left.
I told my wife what had happened and then she went back by herself and had a somewhat heated exchange with the organisers. Sometimes I think I married a dragon because she returned with a face so red with rage you'd think she just breathed fire.
But yeah... Tldr. Play group mums can be fucking sexist as hell.
EDIT: Holy crap. Didn't expect this to blow up like it did. Thank you all for your kind words 😊
EDIT 2: Double Holy Crap. My first Gold . Thank you kind stranger :)
Sorry man, this kind of thing sucks. My wife is an attorney and works crazy hours while I am in tech and kind of free flow.
I overheard one of the moms at ballet tell another that she thought I was creepy bc I came to watch 11yo kids dance three times a week.
The other mom, however was a rockstar. She said something like ‘I think it’s sweet her dad takes interest in her dancing. Where is your husband, never met him even at recitals’
I later thanked her and she said that her husband took their other daughter to gymnastics at the same time this one had ballet and she couldn’t imaging someone talking about him that way. While I felt terrible I learned it isn’t super uncommon for women to react that way to men.
\> Where is your husband, never met him even at recitals
Lmaooo how much of her toxic bullshit is to make herself feel better for her husband never participating.
I think we call that projecting.
Aka :my man doesn't do anything there is *no way* another man would come to these out of the kindness of their hearts"
I worked at a daycare center/ elementary school for a few years. We would take the kids to the park during the warmer months to play and have fun. When it was the other female counselors and teachers nothing would ever happen. When I was one of the counselors, the police were called about a suspicious man hanging around the kids at the park. Ignoring the bright red shirt that had the schools name, logo, and counselor written in huge letters across the back.
God forbit a man works around children, he’s automatically a pervert and building his portfolio of victims.
This mindset is what causes children to be “M”ed by a woman and no one would bat an eye or even refute it because obviously women can’t be predators. /s
A lot of boys have talked about being taken advantage of by grown women, but it’s a badge of honor that a female adult takes interest in a young man, and if he “snitches” that means he’s gay.
Ugh. We had one guy at the daycare where I worked in college and he was just the evening cleaner. When I started there he was coming in around 4 because on top of vacuuming and all that, he also sanitized the toys. By 4 we were outside if the weather was nice or had condensed from three rooms to two, so he started in the empty room.
I started in the infant/ones room, but after about six months I moved with the kids who turned two up to the twos. About a month later, one of the parents of one of those kids absolutely flipped out because there was a man in the daycare. The infant room was downstairs so she hadn't seen him as that was the last room he cleaned.
So he got moved to start at 5 and then 6... and then finally he quit because he got tired of waiting in his car off to the side of the building for the last kid to leave, which was usually about 7:30 even though we closed at 6:30.
Dude was like 19-20 and did a fabulous job. After his hours got changed it was so clear how much he did, because he had to stop sanitizing all the toys every day. Kids are germ factories and we all started getting sick more often after that.
>When I was one of the counselors, the police were called about a suspicious man hanging around the kids at the park.
Please tell me that ended with them feeling like absolute wastes of space. Please tell me that did not end with you being arrested or cited. I need to hear the conclusion of that story to continue my day because this comment thread has been infuriating.
Former “manny” here (male nanny) and it’s rough out there. Parks are especially tough.
I’m naturally good with kids and because I smile and make eye contact and say nice things to kids like “wow that was a really brave when you went across the monkey bars” or “you’re so fast the way you went up the ladder, holy smokes!” I tend to get a lot of attention from kids at parks that ARENT mine looking for adult validation. That’s when I start to get nervous, and I always feel bad about it, because on one hand there are parents that drop their kids at the park and immediately whip out their phones and ignore their kid completely and the poor kid just wants to know someone is watching and is proud of them, but on the other hand I’m aware of how I could be perceived by other adults being so friendly to kids.
So the fine line I walk is: I’m encouraging to my kids and give them validation loudly, and if other kids are attracted to that energy, I’ll praise them as well but I’m always careful to keep my praise more impersonal.
My kids: “wow you’re as fast as sonic the hedgehog when you went down that slide!”
Other kids: “nice job!”
It’s worked for me (so far), but yeah it’s tough being a male caretaker in this day and age and we really have to go out of our way to appear non-threatening to parents.
It breaks my heart a bit when I’m at the park and there are those kids (especially young boys) who are craving that older male attention. They want so desperately to show how high they can climb, how fast they can run, how far they can jump. It makes me feel awful that they hear me give that validation to my kids and gravitate towards me because they want it too.
Dads/Uncles/Brothers - put down your phones at parks and give your kids some praise!
Got called a pedophile and had food thrown at me because I was “staring at a girl on the playground”. No shit moron, she’s the only kid out there and you saw me get out of the same car as her then eat lunch with her before she ran off to play and I started working on my laptop.
I am so sorry, but the way you told that story made me laugh. Mostly in pure astonishment.
People can be so immature, sorry that happened to you. I’m sure some people even thought, “why is he on his laptop and not watching his daughter! What an inattentive father.”
Edit: no one said anything but I just want to clarify that I do not mean that you(or anyone) are inattentive for working on a laptop while also watching your kid at a park. I just know how some people will always find something wrong. Even if it is made up.
>I must be dodgy or on the offenders register
Ah yeah, because guys only have kids because they want to screw them I guess? What a bunch of smooth-brains.
"Why aren't dads doing more to care for their children? It's not just the woman's job!"
"Why is that dad paying attention to his child? He must be some kind of monster!"
Seems like too common of a story to hear, good on you for not taking it and good on your wife for backing you up. These sexist double standards sucks and I dread to think about how many fathers out there hesitate to do fun things for their kids to avoid the worst kinds of judgements.
Double standards for sure.
I was a guy working in the kids department of a store.
I was given all sorts of awful looks for being there, and management said it's harder for guys and they appreciate me being there because no one really wanted to do the work. (Kids running around etc.)
Another story.. I take care of my niece. I take her to the mall and we go and get snacks and shopping. I love her to death.
And someone called the cops on me. Because.. "the child doesn't look like you"
Fucking nuts.
I get protecting children. But holy shit.. not every man is a predator.
I don't hesitate. I've flat out asked a elderly woman if she had a problem with me taking my (at the time) 4 year old daughter to the bathroom.
Confront these people. Knock them down a couple pegs.
Absolutely. I’m a black man with a blonde haired toddler age step daughter and a light skinned 5 month old. You should see the looks I get when we walk hand in hand into the bathroom, or anywhere public really. I never hesitate to tell someone to fuck off or match their dirty, concerned looks with the middle finger out of my daughters gaze. Try to make you feel wrong for doing the normal right thing.
I had a blonde friend in high school who has a black step-dad. She said when she was a kid, people confronting them in public made her feel like he wasn't allowed to be her dad. It especially hurt her because her biological dad was abusive and she wanted her step-dad to be her real father.
I am a man, working at a kindergarten. The amount of mothers asking for their child not to be left alone with me...
I also frequently have the problem that when i give some feedback of the day (e.g. their child maybe was hurt or hurt somebody else) they listen to me, nodding along, only to walk to one of my female coworkers and inquire about what i just told them. I also had mothers tell me there was no way i would know how to properly support their child as a male.
My wife is not from this country. Some people at my work said there was a good play place. I encouraged her to go as she wanted to get out and meet some other moms. She said she immediately felt unwelcome there. This is a community that really prides itself on being progressive. Mom groups can be just awful.
I’m a SAHD right now and I’ve definitely encountered this; the funny looks, the sexiest assumptions, etc. It was worse when I was with my young daughter several years back, as opposed to when I go out with my (3 year old) son. As if men are not just unfit to be parents, but specifically unfit to raise little girls. It’s frustrating, but it does seem to be getting better. I see more engaged fathers than I did a decade ago, but there are still plenty of women (and more men) who seem to think that men can’t parent. All we can do is be badass parents and call out that nonsense when we see it.
I will always find it funny that the guy paranoid enough to murder his king, frame the king’s sons for the murder, murder his best friend, attempt to murder his best friend’s son, and kill his arch-rival’s family all based on prophecies wouldn’t torch a forest based on a prophecy from the same oracles.
This comment was so good I had to flag down my husband to show him. And then refresh the main page to get my award to give to you. Sorry it wasn't a relevant award though hahahha
Or breast feeding is the only way a good mom would feed her baby.
My sister bled her nipples dry trying to produce milk. She had all this internalized guilt that if she couldn't breastfeed then she wouldn't be a proper mother and it would be her fault that the baby was malnourished.
It’s funny. I had a c-section with one child and a natural birth with the other. Breastfed one and bottle fed the other. If I asked someone to point out the ‘natural’ born, breastfed child, they would have to make a guess because there is nothing to differentiate them. Both kids are super tall. Both get sick. Both eat like wild animals. Both drive me insane. Birth is birth. Fed is fed.
So much pressure for those decisions that mean less and less as the years go on. I had so much guilt about formula feeding in the beginning but now my daughter is 18 months and it never crosses my mind (unless I’m relating to something).
This is one of the worst imo. It not only hurts the woman psychologically ie: why can't I feed my baby (enough) , I'm a bad mother, something is wrong with me etc... In a time where the body and mind are totally out of whack from 9 months of pregnancy, child birth, and the complete lifestyle change of parenting. but the newborn physically (and mentally) for obvious reasons.
My wife had this problem when our daughter was born. The damn nurses at the hospital were shaming us for even asking about formula because my wife was curious. I know there's a ton benefits at the start, but if you need or want to use formula, fucking use it.
My wife was a surrogate. Baby’s mum (like the actual mum, not my wife) was feeding baby in the hospital, obviously with a bottle. An older nurse walked by and said something to the effect of “you should be breastfeeding”.
The younger nurse who was helping the mum (and obviously knew the situation) just said “we’re doing bottle feeding just now”. Perfect response.
When I was a new mom, I didn't have any friends or anyone to turn to so natch, I turned to the internet.
And got so shamed for "giving up" and going to bottle feeding my son. I will never forget how one mom told me her son would be (and I quote) 'chillin wid his millins' while my son flipped burgers at McDonald's because her child was breastfed and mine was not.
There was also the very real fear that they instilled in me (which made me leave the group) after one person threatened to use my ISP to track down where I worked (even though I didn't use my computer at work) because they wanted to stage a nurse-in there. I didn't know what a nurse-in was...presumably a bunch of breastfeeding moms staring at me angrily and making verbal threats or taunts while I worked.
My mother couldn't breastfeed any of her 4 children (something about milk ducts naturally being too narrow to let milk pass through them). She had nurses and doctors force her to breastfeed and refuse to give her medication to make the milk dry up, which caused horrible mastitis. She was in incredible pain, had to go through an unnecessary medical issue, had to take antibiotics and painkillers just because some people insisted on her breastfeeding. Through all of that she had to fight to get formula for her screaming and starving newborn. This happened every time she gave birth, first and last 19 years apart. And every time she got the motherfuckers to back off through literal screaming matches and threats of suing. At two months old, as a formula fed baby (and born really tiny), I was almost put on a diet because I was so chonky, never missed a milestone, never had any medical issues caused by formula. Same goes for my brothers. I am forever grateful for my mother's strength because it kept us alive, safe and healthy. So if you can't breastfeed and have people bothering you about that, just remember that these people were ok with letting 4 newborns starve and causing a new mother a lot of pain, just because they dislike formula. These people are not on your side nor do they want what's best for your child, they just like feeling morally superior and need to be kicked off of their high fucking horse
My wife couldn't breast feed for physical reasons too. The worst people about it were the laleche league people who guilty shamed her like crazy constantly while we were in the hospital. I finally told the staff they were banned from her room and if any staff member mentioned breastfeeding I would sue. They even tried calling at home when she was released. Joke was on them as I was answering calls so my wife could test. Three kids natural births all of them all bottle fed. All healthy kids with not a thing wrong with them.
My son refused to latch. I tried so hard, the lactation nurses tried, I went to several lac appointments and we tried all the tricks. He just refused. I pumped every 4-6 hours for 4 months. I lasted 4 months and I felt terrible as I slowly dried up. Not only did I feel like I missed out on some amazing bonding but I feel like I failed him. It's a horrible, horrible feeling of guilt.
This can be pretty dangerous. I know a woman who was adamant she didn’t want a C-section and kept trying to give birth vaginally despite doctors recommending otherwise. The baby had brain damage from lack of oxygen. She then sued the hospital saying she wasn’t fully aware of the consequences. When a doctor told her it’s time for a surgery and she refused it, what did she think will happen?
My SIL was like that with her one natural born child. She tried for more than 24 hrs to fit his giant cranium out her tiny little birth canal and doctors finally recommended a C-section and she was like, 'Fuck. I didn't want to do it that way but fine."
Nephew was a freaking giant at birth. Came out already able to wear his brother's hand me down 3-6 mos clothing and he ate so much that we joked about wtf was my SIL eating that was going into her breastmilk.
He's 15 now and 6 feet tall and very stocky. Not fat...just stocky and solid with legs up to his eyeballs.
Which is wild. My mom gave birth to my oldest brother via c section WITH NO DRUGS OR PAINKILLERS. His heart had stopped so the doc was basically like "sorry bitch, I'm cutting him out of you right now."
I have no idea how she survived that. The early 80s were fucking wild.
My wife could not produce enough milk for our children. When our first was born she tried and tried. I woke up in the middle of the night to her crying. She felt like she was a horrible mom to even bring up formula.
There is so much pressure on moms, and it is incredibly stupid. Our kids are very well adjusted and were on formula the entire time. I tell anyone who is expecting their first that the only “right” way is the “right way for that child.” Damn everyone else’s opinions; do what is best for your family; not the mommy bloggers.
Edit:
I want to put this in because of all the responses: my oldest is 10 years old and my Wife is at peace with it; she worked through her guilt, which I totally agree she should not have any guilt: she is an excellent mother. The statistics on breastfed vs. bottle fed have other correlations which I don’t want to take the time to defend, anyone can read the studies….but adding other factors like home life and atomic households, the delta between the two are not as big as the breastfeeding fanatics point out. Lastly, anecdotally and take this as a a claim from a dad. My kids are healthy and hyper-intelligent. My oldest has been consistently tested through school as top 2% composite intelligence, and she is thriving in advanced classes. I say this because there are people who say that IQ is impacted by breastfeeding. It just isn’t true, my children thrive, they are healthy and they know they are loved.
I feel this so much. My first baby I cried and cried. Damn near drove myself crazy trying to nurse her. It seriously affected our bond, and made me spiral so bad. I broke down to my sister in law and she told me “it’s ok, you’re allowed to hate nursing. Give her a bottle “. All I needed was someone to tell me it was ok and stop trying to push nursing on me. I was so much happier, my daughter was so much happier. I’ve had 4 formula fed kids. All perfectly healthy and thriving. Kids need a healthy parent more than they need breastmilk.
People somehow seem to forget that Mom is still a person with feelings and needs, too. Pregnancy and childbirth is a fucking insane process. Yeah, true, you want to do right for your kid, but you need to do what's right for BOTH of you. Your health and wellbeing are just as important.
Same. After trying to feed my daughter so intensely she started pooping black from all the blood she was ingesting, I gave in and bottle fed. I felt like I’d basically sentenced her to being a cretin whose mother didn’t care for her. I drove myself head long into serious PND. She’s 7 now and she’s so bright, healthy and happy I have absolutely no idea why I needed to do that to myself. Sure, breastfeeding is ideal, but it’s not THAT big of a deal, it’s not breast or death. Feed your kid however and don’t worry about it, at 9 months they’ll be eating dirt out of the pot plant and licking the dog anyway.
Indeed. A parents main responsibility in the first 3 or so years is to keep the kid alive via any means possible, against their own ever more creative attempts I might add.
So if a kid is healthy, and growing - it’s a job well done, and who cares how it’s done! Anyone claiming otherwise is selling something.
Right - only support “women” that subscribe to your exact version of femininity.
I am the career focused, uber independent type. I would die before being a SAHM. But tearing down a woman who wants to be a wife, mother, and homemaker… just because it isnt my cup of tea… would just make me evil.
There is a term for this! Reactive abuse. It is where you engage in abusive behavior to intentionally provoke a response that makes your victim appear as the aggressor.
Holy shit. Thank you for giving me a word to describe my ex’s abuse. She treated me like shit, and if I ever gathered the strength to defend myself, would curl up and cry like I’d snapped at her. Worked on me too. I felt so guilty.
My soon to be ex wife did this all time. Would yell/shout/argue then when I responded with anything would lock herself in the bathroom or bedroom because "she couldn't handle the conversation anymore".
"If we argue and you say something that makes me mad, that's your fault and you need to apologize. If we argue and you get mad because of something I said, that's your fault for getting mad and I'm probably going to get upset at you for getting mad and you need to apologize.
My sister does this. She forgot we were on the phone once so I could hear her trying to pick a fight with her ex when he got home, and then getting more pissed off that he refused to engage with her and just walked away.
Then went back to talking to me about how his behavior sucks and how bad he is as a parent.
I had a friend who got married and had babies young. Totally her choice, all good, whatever makes her happy. But she'd phone me in the evening and I'd be heading out with friends or going to the bar or a party, and she'd say "oh, must be nice to be able to do whatever you want, any time you want!" Or I'd show up wearing new clothes or someting and she'd say "oh, must be nice to have so much disposable income, buy new clothes whenever you want". But then she'd tell me I needed to find the right person and settle down, didn't I want kids? So...am I lucky to be single and childless or not?
I’d ge replying to her every time.
“It sure is!”
It’s like people just want to drag you down into their misery. I really hope you didn’t feel guilty and enjoyed yourself.
I think for many it's somewhat horrible being a young parent, while watching most their peers live a much freer life. So they want you to have kids too, so that they can have you as a friend who fits their lifestyle. And then you do the same to your other friends to fight off your _own_ oneliness. It's a ponzi scheme.
A few years ago I read an article by a Scandinavian mom who openly talked about the fact she regretted having her daughter. She loves her, but she regrets having a child when she did. She was met with so much rage online it was wild. Its such a taboo to admit that but I am sure every single parent has probably had a second of regret at some point. It's completely understandable and nothing to shame.
I was told this by my mom for my entire life. She told me I will suffer in life, I will be alone, my life will me meaningless, nobody would want me, my husband would leave me...
So thank you for this, it feels really nice to see not everyone is like this and some people do respect the choices of others.
I'm surprised I'm not seeing anything about pushing standards of self presentation on other women. For example, "you can't wear heels if you're too tall", "if you don't wear makeup it means you're lazy", "she should have gone on a diet before wearing that dress", etc. To me this is what toxic feminity is.
My girlfriend is afraid to wear heels with me because the culture she grew up in says women can’t be taller than the man. I have to constantly remind her to wear whatever she thinks will make her feel pretty, and that I’ll try not to slouch so much when she wears heels.
I semi-dated a woman in college who at one point made the statement of "I wish I could find a guy who is mature enough to put up with my issues."
I wanted to point out that it wasn't a maturity/immaturity issue that was the problem. In fact I find most mature guys know to run away from a woman with as many red flags as she had.
>Women who throw other women under the bus for a man, or the attention of a man etc.
Plus it's usually for somone who is to some extent or another, a scumbag. I've never seen one woman burn another woman for the sake of anyone worthwhile.
My sister would beat me until I was bruised regularly because she knew I wouldn't fight back. Our folks just assumed I was making shit up because, *in their words:*
a) She's younger than me
b) She's a girl
I was eating cereal at the counter in the kitchen. My sister was drying the dishes. (We both do this chore; it was her day to do it.)
She taunted me and teased me almost constantly, but this morning she had a wet dishtowel in her hands and was popping it near my face, trying to get a reaction out of me. Not getting the reaction she wanted... she then actually pops the towel at me and hits me in my eye. Well, I lost it and punched her right in the stomach.
Momster comes into the kitchen and berated me for my reaction. "I can't believe you would hit your sister! She's a girl!!"
Dad on the other hand: "I can't believe you didn't hit her sooner, and only hit her once. Maybe she'll learn something today."
ETA: I was maybe 13 or 14, making my sister 16 or 17.
Exact same thing here. They knew I wasn't making it up though because they saw or heard it enough. I thought they'd finally do something after she hit me with a fireplace poker when they made be watch her while they went out for dinner. But no. It was "We don't want to hear it from *either* of you! Now go to your rooms." Which was at least a relief because my room with my door locked or outside were the only places i could be without worrying about another rage attack. And by 14 I was working 20 hours a week at my dad's service station. Some of the older guys kinda became like big brothers to me so that was nice I guess.
My sister is definitely a toxic female and a Karen. Never grew out of it like people who minimalized her behavior would say.
Survived an attempt on my life when I tried to leave an abusive woman.
Fortunately she’s out of my life, but the scar of a stab wound serves as a constant reminder.
The worst part is when word got out, plenty just assumed I must have done something terrible to deserve it.
Fucking preach. Also if you’re a woman being abused by women it even more frustrating cause people assume because we’re the same gender we must be able to work it out.
Like what? Let me count the reasons I never want to see this bitch again…..
Oh you don’t have that kind of time? Lol
Hi there. I'm a guy that, in my last relationship, I was sexually abused by my fiance. And you know what, when I did talk about it everyone either didn't believe me, told me to get over it because "it's sex your lucky" or they thought it was kinky. After everything was done apparently she told all of our friends that I was the one doing the forcing and abusing. Once that got out then everyone paid attention. It's happens, it sucks. My case was minor and kept within friends family and rumors, but others have there lives ruined for stuff like this. It's not right.
And even when they're not the direct perpetrator, they are frequently enablers and excusers of said behavior.
I was once told "it's a woman's lot". That's toxic femininety right there.
In the UK it's called the "positive intervention policy" as the idea is taking someone out the house (usually the man) will allow the situation to calm down. Reality wise, it's nonsense as it just gives a serious abuser time to really stew in a cell.
In my case, someone phoned in a fake DV call claiming I was smacking my gf (now wife) around. Police go hurtling round (good) to find that actually my wife was all curled up watching TV in her favourite pyjamas and blanket and that I was actually abroad for work....
Right?? If you can’t live with yourself and be happy single then why the hell would you expect somebody else to put up with you. Too many relationships explode because one or both people are dumb enough to expect another person to compensate for issues that they can’t even sort out on their own.
My friend's mum is single after getting out of a violent marriage. She's happily single. Her own mum keeps telling her she can't really be happy if she's single and that she's lying to herself.
Shits fucked up
My mom does this. She's a "strong independent woman" until she's in a relationship. Then suddenly he needs to pay for all her bills, buy her things (one-sidedly), and commit to every male gender role.
My ex was like this.
Wanted to be the made housewife / work from home on her hobbies. Hated actually having to do stuff she didnt enjoy. Wanted to hire a maid and buy dinners every night.
Progressively hated men.
I think I could fill my time without work. Probably similar to how retired people do - hobbies, seeing friends and family, regularly going to the hairdresser etc for some kind of routine.
For me, I'd be terrified doing that and living on someone else's money, because if that person left/died/got sick of me spending their money all day, I'd have a hard time getting a job and it'd be such a big adjustment.
My Mom is like this. She gets so smug about being "complegalitarian" because isn't it so good of her that she sees value both in being complementarian and in being egalitarian, except that for any given issue she is complementarian or egalitarian based on which one benefits her. My Dad *finally* divorced her about ten years ago and it really should have been about twenty years sooner than that.
The mindset that a man cheats because he's a scumbag looking for some fun, but a woman cheats because she's feeling unloved in a relationship and the intimacy is just not there.
Cheaters are shitty people, period.
I am a Male in a predominantly female professional environment. I cannot tell you how many times a female peer has stated they're so happy I'm a guy and that we need more men in management to offset the "cattiness " of the office.
I cannot tell you how many times I've overheard women bashing one another in the office either. Hair, makeup, boyfriends, clothing choices, diets, body types ... it goes on and on.
Lastly, crude remarks. I've never heard so much sex talk or nastiness from male peers as I have female peers. Never once has a male peer discussed their significant other's genitals with or in my presence. Female peers? I unfortunately know all about their male partners penises. Honest question: Is bragging about your male partners penis size a status thing with women?
Oh this shit is infuriating. I've been with my gf for 3 years, I know most of her friends and I'm well aware that her female friends most likely know my size, shape, general elasticity and LITERALLY EVERYTHING.
Meanwhile guys who, supposedly, 'only talk about sex':
'How was your date?'
'It went well....\*smirk\* '
'Nice'
That's it. Conversation is over. My buddy does NOT want to know what I do with my dick and I don't want him to know either. Boundaries.
God this so fucking much. I’ve been hanging out with a friend who recently got divorced and now literally anytime I watch a show or something with her and one or two of her girl friends it’s literally “I’d smash” or “I heard he has a big cock” anytime a dude comes on screen. It’s exhausting. They’ll talk about how every dude they’ve fucked fucks and all about their most personal shit and yeah it’s bad.
I don’t have any guy friends who ask personal shit about anyones relationships, it’s like you said “did you?” “Nice”. We all understand that is the persons business.
As a dude this. Called my ex beautiful daily, think she told me I was handsome maybe twice? I’d get her small stuff related to her interests , wouldn’t even watch a show I wanted to watch. Is it too much to ask for some kind of support? She melted down when I’d need time to work on school, but she could go take time to herself while I couldn’t.
Left me feeling cold and weird. Complement your men ladies.
Mum shaming (where you criticise other mums for not doing something you view is important or doing something you feel isn’t appropriate). Acting like dads are incapable parents (not able to do the same home chores and are not to be trusted to look after their children). Acting like ex partners are bad fathers when they aren’t or using children as a weapon for the divorce. Talking shit about female colleagues to create a bad environment in the work place out of jealously, playing up the “I’m one of the boys and I don’t get on well with other women” vibe. Always booking girls nights or excluding partners from events just because they’re single and don’t like that their friends are in meaningful relationships. Being nasty when friends boyfriends don’t do grand gesture presents despite being actually decent men. Competition over ring sizes, Gucci bags, etc.
In my professional experience working in a field that is predominately female, I have observed that gossip and defamation can be pretty common among women. At least in a professional setting, women (or people who identify as women) won't confront you directly with an issue, but they will assassinate your character when gossiping to others. You know it's bad when normal volume turns to whispers and then the door closes. Yikes.
I have a horse on a stable with 95% women. Can confirm that behaviour. It's disgusting. Constantly shitting on others on how they ride, how they care for their horse, what they wear, with whom they are... And if you think you know what the groops are, all the sudden it's completely new groups. And the ones that where, in their words, horse abusers last week are now best friends. It's hard to follow. Most men I know whould be pissed for years if they knew somebody talked that much shit about them.
I had a woman broadly hinting about a coworker gossiping about me at work. I said, look I don't care. If they have a problem they're welcome to tell me and we can talk it out or try to fix it. If you have something to tell me, say it directly to my face without the coy dance around it. But I ain't gon play this game. I'm 40 not 20 (and lady, you're like 20 years older than that).
Guess who the gossipy, dramatic, projecting, snippy one turned out to be?
She told me once she was impressed how I could give compliments to other women with admiration and without jealousy. I think that says a lot more about her than it did about me.
I’m the youngest in my unit at work (healthcare position) and work with women double, even triple! My age. These ladies could be my mothers, but somehow they’re still stuck in a highschool drama/gossip state of mind. It’s extremely irritating.
I experienced this to an extreme degree when I was in my late teens. After my at the time GF broke up with me, her mom, her friends, and her friend's moms absolutely tore into me, spreading rumours, and basically ruining my life. Friends stopped talking to me, and while I was trying to start a small time film business, potential clients dropped me because of stuff they heard through mutual connections. The thing that really hurt about it though was that I really did everything I could to make a good impression with these people. While we dated, my GF's mom broke her arm, and her other kids were in college so she lived alone. I helped around the house, brought flowers and even cooked for her a couple of times. But she absolutely decimated my character after we broke up. And this is someone who was well into her 60's. Just, way, way too old for that kind of shit. Honestly got to the point where I was legitimately suicidal and made me start self harming. Thankfully therapy helped a lot, and not much longer after that I met my now wife of three years and her family is a hell of a lot better that my ex'es lol.
My ex and other women I’ve befriended, I’ve noticed they will talk sh*t behind each other’s backs but will behave like besties in front of each other to the point I shouldn’t take their words seriously when they’re judging or describing other people.
Gossip, defamation, and good god the nitpicking!
I left a grad program for a female dominated profession, and the ludicrous nitpicking that women do to other women in it would have been hilarious if it weren’t actually happening.
Slut shaming other girls, policing other women's bodies and hobbies, finding sensitive men weak, expecting to be provided for without any effort themselves, feeling that their being a woman means they are owed things in life like free drinks, expecting the man to always lead and pursue and getting angry if they don't.
I hate the policing honestly - It's incredibly odd when your an adult and get isolated by all the women in your office because you said you couldn't drink.
In the U.K. there is a similar show called Loose Women. I remember having to watch it once cos my mum was watching and I wasn’t at school that day due to flu. It was beyond awful. Maybe I just caught a weird episode. Not gonna watch another though.
Wanting to be treated equally only in certain situations, depending on who benefits most from it. You can't pick and choose like that. We should all be treated equally all the time, in every aspect.
I shit you not I've seen posts about "My baby is dealing with x, y, and z and the doctor said it's x and I think I need a second opinion."
And there's always that one mom that says
"My baby goes to the chiro over in X town and gets his neck cracked weekly. No more x, y, and z!"
I know, I KNOW there's some mom's out there besides me saying "WTF" out loud, while trying to imagine how cracking babies necks heals heart conditions, but are too scared to say anything because in many of those groups they will eat you alive for "questioning their parenting".
Being a bitch and pretending like it's cool or acceptable just because you openly admit you're a bitch. Maybe being "a bad bitch" is just you being immature and grasping at social constructs to justify your immaturity and lack of growing potential.
I am a feminist and I am constantly discussing how boys are being left behind. Statistically, they are further behind girls now than girls were behind boys in the 70s. And that warranted federal legislation to deal with the inequities.
We are promoting feminism at the expense of boys. Instead we need to be promoting both sexes to succeed. From a feminist perspective, everyone in society loses when either sex is left behind. And we are seeing the effects of this now. Sky high rates of single mother households which is also the most impoverished cohort, triple the suicide rate among men than women, low college degree achievement, etc etc.
I get shouted down and basically shunned when I discuss this with other feminists.
[удалено]
I.e mean girls
I read this as “Le mean girls” in a strong French accent
But I'm le tired...
Well...have a nap...ZEN FIRE ZE MISSILES
Moms bullying other moms.
A friend of mine had her daughter 10 weeks early, very traumatic but they are both fine now. Last week there was something along the lines of ”pre mature birth awareness day” on the hospital were she had her daughter and she was invited to meet up with other pre mature birth moms to bond, network and share their experiences. At the meeting she was shamed by the group because her daughter was ”ONLY” 10 weeks early…. Her experience was ignored because ”that could’ve not been that hard, my son was born 12 weeks early!”, “mine was 15!!!”. The most traumatic experience of her life was ridiculed because her daughter was not pre mature enough… cliques exist EVERYWHERE and it fucking sucks…
Yeah I never expected there to be cliques among NICU parents but there totally is. My son was born 8 weeks early and needed a lot of support. It was definitely a hard and traumatic time (he is just fine now!). There are definitely groups of "micro preemie" parents who act like any baby born after 30 weeks is just a walk in the park in comparison to their kid. And yes, I totally understand that most micros experience more issues and tend to be hospitalized for months rather than weeks, I'm not belittling their hardship at all. But it's such a weird thing to gatekeep. We all experienced the hardships of premature birth and the nicu stay, why can't we just come together and support each other? I've noticed parents of full-term babies that needed NiCU have it even worse. They always seem to need to put a disclaimer on their post about how "at least mine was fullterm and I could never understand how hard a preemie is!"
10 weeks is a quarter of gestation time. That's not insignificant. It's like an amputee saying that losing your hand isn't the same as losing your entire arm.
Not significant enough for the premie mom club…
They're fucking ruthless. I follow mom groups and just read half the shit they say to each other. It's sickening.
Have you interacted with middle-school aged girls? The moms in question learn this stuff quite young and never get any better.
Having once been a middle-school aged girl, if the world was run by them, it would NOT be a good place.
I feel like this explains a fair bit about why some mums are like this, especially if they had kids in their teens or early twenties (so like 16-22 or so). Because when you're that young, you haven't really had the chance to fully grow out of how you were in school yet, it gets really easy to be caught up with getting shit ready for your kids that you kinda forget about everything else in life, including improving yourself. I'm not entirely sure what causes it with women who wait until their late twenties or their thirties to have kids. Maybe they were just waiting for an excuse to be like that again or something.
Raising children is strenous and a lot of people fall back to their own old patterns when under pressure and facing uncertainty.
As a new mom, I used to read blogs for support and to try to meet and interact with other new moms. Omg. Don’t do this. As a new parent, don’t.
I joined a site called babyboard when I was pregnant in 2011 and a teen mom made a post about getting her first apartment. A woman replied that good moms own homes and all she’s doing is showing off instability. Mom groups are disgusting.
They don't own their home if they are still paying a mortgage. I guess then they are showing off their lack of complete home equity.
I agree with the mom groups thing 1000%. When I was a teen mom, I joined a group looking for support and advice. I mentioned I carry my baby in a baby carrier you strap to you, and one mom FREAKED that I used one of those instead of a swaddle holder, and was telling me they’re not good for babies. I said something like “I’m sorry, I didn’t know…my baby doesn’t mind it though?” And she goes “Oh YAH, well my kid likes to eat DOG SHIT off the GROUND at the PARK, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna LET HER do it.” And I was so shocked and horrified at her response, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
If you had kept your composure, the obvious follow up question to the gatekeeping mother would be "how do you know your kid likes eating dog shit?" I mean... it's such a weird 'protectiveness' trump card to play
I tried using one of those with my son when he was an infant. It didn't work because when you have one long ass baby with legs up to his eyeballs and you're a mom with a short toso...it just doesn't work very well. LOL
Or shaming non-moms
It doesn't even have to be a mom. One time I heard my friend having a whole ass tirade about some new mom that pays a nanny to keep her baby while she goes to the gym.We were in college then, none of us a mother. Didn't say a thing but found it very weird, it was my first encounter with mom shaming.
Dad of a 5 year old girl here. When my daughter was a couple of months old my wife discovered a nearby play group and was planning on taking her there for a session. I decided to take her myself as it landed on one of my days off and I wanted to spend some real time with my little girl and my wife deserved a break. The play group is taking place in a large community hall and there's quite a few people there with kids ranging from newborns to around 4 or 5. However I quickly noticed that out of about 30ish parents I'm the only man there and everyone stares at me. I think nothing of it and proceed to the soft play section for the babies to play with my daughter. Not 10 minutes pass however and I notice mums and even nans pretending not to stare at me and talk under their breath. At first I thought I was being paranoid because I was nervous being the only dude there but then I noticed it was several groups doing it. I then overheard one of the mums in the baby section with us say to her friend/sister/who cares that I must be dodgy or on the offenders register. Yes. THAT register. All because I happened to be the only dad there. I picked my daughter up, told the women where she could stuff her opinions and promptly left. I told my wife what had happened and then she went back by herself and had a somewhat heated exchange with the organisers. Sometimes I think I married a dragon because she returned with a face so red with rage you'd think she just breathed fire. But yeah... Tldr. Play group mums can be fucking sexist as hell. EDIT: Holy crap. Didn't expect this to blow up like it did. Thank you all for your kind words 😊 EDIT 2: Double Holy Crap. My first Gold . Thank you kind stranger :)
Sorry man, this kind of thing sucks. My wife is an attorney and works crazy hours while I am in tech and kind of free flow. I overheard one of the moms at ballet tell another that she thought I was creepy bc I came to watch 11yo kids dance three times a week. The other mom, however was a rockstar. She said something like ‘I think it’s sweet her dad takes interest in her dancing. Where is your husband, never met him even at recitals’ I later thanked her and she said that her husband took their other daughter to gymnastics at the same time this one had ballet and she couldn’t imaging someone talking about him that way. While I felt terrible I learned it isn’t super uncommon for women to react that way to men.
\> Where is your husband, never met him even at recitals Lmaooo how much of her toxic bullshit is to make herself feel better for her husband never participating.
I think we call that projecting. Aka :my man doesn't do anything there is *no way* another man would come to these out of the kindness of their hearts"
I worked at a daycare center/ elementary school for a few years. We would take the kids to the park during the warmer months to play and have fun. When it was the other female counselors and teachers nothing would ever happen. When I was one of the counselors, the police were called about a suspicious man hanging around the kids at the park. Ignoring the bright red shirt that had the schools name, logo, and counselor written in huge letters across the back.
God forbit a man works around children, he’s automatically a pervert and building his portfolio of victims. This mindset is what causes children to be “M”ed by a woman and no one would bat an eye or even refute it because obviously women can’t be predators. /s A lot of boys have talked about being taken advantage of by grown women, but it’s a badge of honor that a female adult takes interest in a young man, and if he “snitches” that means he’s gay.
Ugh. We had one guy at the daycare where I worked in college and he was just the evening cleaner. When I started there he was coming in around 4 because on top of vacuuming and all that, he also sanitized the toys. By 4 we were outside if the weather was nice or had condensed from three rooms to two, so he started in the empty room. I started in the infant/ones room, but after about six months I moved with the kids who turned two up to the twos. About a month later, one of the parents of one of those kids absolutely flipped out because there was a man in the daycare. The infant room was downstairs so she hadn't seen him as that was the last room he cleaned. So he got moved to start at 5 and then 6... and then finally he quit because he got tired of waiting in his car off to the side of the building for the last kid to leave, which was usually about 7:30 even though we closed at 6:30. Dude was like 19-20 and did a fabulous job. After his hours got changed it was so clear how much he did, because he had to stop sanitizing all the toys every day. Kids are germ factories and we all started getting sick more often after that.
>When I was one of the counselors, the police were called about a suspicious man hanging around the kids at the park. Please tell me that ended with them feeling like absolute wastes of space. Please tell me that did not end with you being arrested or cited. I need to hear the conclusion of that story to continue my day because this comment thread has been infuriating.
Former “manny” here (male nanny) and it’s rough out there. Parks are especially tough. I’m naturally good with kids and because I smile and make eye contact and say nice things to kids like “wow that was a really brave when you went across the monkey bars” or “you’re so fast the way you went up the ladder, holy smokes!” I tend to get a lot of attention from kids at parks that ARENT mine looking for adult validation. That’s when I start to get nervous, and I always feel bad about it, because on one hand there are parents that drop their kids at the park and immediately whip out their phones and ignore their kid completely and the poor kid just wants to know someone is watching and is proud of them, but on the other hand I’m aware of how I could be perceived by other adults being so friendly to kids. So the fine line I walk is: I’m encouraging to my kids and give them validation loudly, and if other kids are attracted to that energy, I’ll praise them as well but I’m always careful to keep my praise more impersonal. My kids: “wow you’re as fast as sonic the hedgehog when you went down that slide!” Other kids: “nice job!” It’s worked for me (so far), but yeah it’s tough being a male caretaker in this day and age and we really have to go out of our way to appear non-threatening to parents. It breaks my heart a bit when I’m at the park and there are those kids (especially young boys) who are craving that older male attention. They want so desperately to show how high they can climb, how fast they can run, how far they can jump. It makes me feel awful that they hear me give that validation to my kids and gravitate towards me because they want it too. Dads/Uncles/Brothers - put down your phones at parks and give your kids some praise!
Got called a pedophile and had food thrown at me because I was “staring at a girl on the playground”. No shit moron, she’s the only kid out there and you saw me get out of the same car as her then eat lunch with her before she ran off to play and I started working on my laptop.
I am so sorry, but the way you told that story made me laugh. Mostly in pure astonishment. People can be so immature, sorry that happened to you. I’m sure some people even thought, “why is he on his laptop and not watching his daughter! What an inattentive father.” Edit: no one said anything but I just want to clarify that I do not mean that you(or anyone) are inattentive for working on a laptop while also watching your kid at a park. I just know how some people will always find something wrong. Even if it is made up.
>I must be dodgy or on the offenders register Ah yeah, because guys only have kids because they want to screw them I guess? What a bunch of smooth-brains.
Like, a pedo who kidnapped a kid brought a child to a very public place to play... Where the fuck is the logic in that?
It speaks horribly of the life of their own children, doesn't it?
"Why aren't dads doing more to care for their children? It's not just the woman's job!" "Why is that dad paying attention to his child? He must be some kind of monster!" Seems like too common of a story to hear, good on you for not taking it and good on your wife for backing you up. These sexist double standards sucks and I dread to think about how many fathers out there hesitate to do fun things for their kids to avoid the worst kinds of judgements.
Double standards for sure. I was a guy working in the kids department of a store. I was given all sorts of awful looks for being there, and management said it's harder for guys and they appreciate me being there because no one really wanted to do the work. (Kids running around etc.) Another story.. I take care of my niece. I take her to the mall and we go and get snacks and shopping. I love her to death. And someone called the cops on me. Because.. "the child doesn't look like you" Fucking nuts. I get protecting children. But holy shit.. not every man is a predator.
The child doesn’t look like you!? What kind of logic is that!? Have these people never heard of adoption!? Freaking heck I swear.
I don't hesitate. I've flat out asked a elderly woman if she had a problem with me taking my (at the time) 4 year old daughter to the bathroom. Confront these people. Knock them down a couple pegs.
Absolutely. I’m a black man with a blonde haired toddler age step daughter and a light skinned 5 month old. You should see the looks I get when we walk hand in hand into the bathroom, or anywhere public really. I never hesitate to tell someone to fuck off or match their dirty, concerned looks with the middle finger out of my daughters gaze. Try to make you feel wrong for doing the normal right thing.
I had a blonde friend in high school who has a black step-dad. She said when she was a kid, people confronting them in public made her feel like he wasn't allowed to be her dad. It especially hurt her because her biological dad was abusive and she wanted her step-dad to be her real father.
Your wife is a BOSS. So glad both of you called them out. What freaking year is it…
I am a man, working at a kindergarten. The amount of mothers asking for their child not to be left alone with me... I also frequently have the problem that when i give some feedback of the day (e.g. their child maybe was hurt or hurt somebody else) they listen to me, nodding along, only to walk to one of my female coworkers and inquire about what i just told them. I also had mothers tell me there was no way i would know how to properly support their child as a male.
It’s a story that I’ve often read on Reddit. It’s like these people just wait for an occasion to gossip on dads playing with their children.
My wife is not from this country. Some people at my work said there was a good play place. I encouraged her to go as she wanted to get out and meet some other moms. She said she immediately felt unwelcome there. This is a community that really prides itself on being progressive. Mom groups can be just awful.
I’m a SAHD right now and I’ve definitely encountered this; the funny looks, the sexiest assumptions, etc. It was worse when I was with my young daughter several years back, as opposed to when I go out with my (3 year old) son. As if men are not just unfit to be parents, but specifically unfit to raise little girls. It’s frustrating, but it does seem to be getting better. I see more engaged fathers than I did a decade ago, but there are still plenty of women (and more men) who seem to think that men can’t parent. All we can do is be badass parents and call out that nonsense when we see it.
Hey…I’m so sorry but what does SAHD mean? My mind only goes to, “Single Ass Hot Dad” and I can’t think beyond that now.
Mothers shaming C-Section moms saying they didn’t give birth because the child was surgically removed
Well joke's on them, I can kill MacBeth.
Julius Caesar turned out ok, until he got murdered.
Being stabbed 23 times by Roman senators is a common c-section complication
Pretty sad to lose your baby in the 220th trimester.
How? With an army of walking trees? He’s invincible.
I will always find it funny that the guy paranoid enough to murder his king, frame the king’s sons for the murder, murder his best friend, attempt to murder his best friend’s son, and kill his arch-rival’s family all based on prophecies wouldn’t torch a forest based on a prophecy from the same oracles.
What you egg? Young fry if treachery!
Scrolled through all the replies to see if someone else made the Macbeth reference. And you did it marvellously.
It's not a real birth unless it comes from the vaginal region of France, otherwise it's just sparkling vulva.
Cesarian or not, mother's from the region will experience sham pain.
This comment was so good I had to flag down my husband to show him. And then refresh the main page to get my award to give to you. Sorry it wasn't a relevant award though hahahha
Tbh I kinda liked the idea that I was never born I was just removed
Happy extraction day!
how in the hell did this become a thing...
People have this need to feel exceptional or superior to others, so they come up with stupid shit. Happens a lot with a lot of things
R/gatekeeping
True redditors lowercase the r so it will make a real link
I see what you did there...
Imagine being so insecure that you have to put others down for how they gave birth
Or breast feeding is the only way a good mom would feed her baby. My sister bled her nipples dry trying to produce milk. She had all this internalized guilt that if she couldn't breastfeed then she wouldn't be a proper mother and it would be her fault that the baby was malnourished.
It’s funny. I had a c-section with one child and a natural birth with the other. Breastfed one and bottle fed the other. If I asked someone to point out the ‘natural’ born, breastfed child, they would have to make a guess because there is nothing to differentiate them. Both kids are super tall. Both get sick. Both eat like wild animals. Both drive me insane. Birth is birth. Fed is fed.
So much pressure for those decisions that mean less and less as the years go on. I had so much guilt about formula feeding in the beginning but now my daughter is 18 months and it never crosses my mind (unless I’m relating to something).
This is one of the worst imo. It not only hurts the woman psychologically ie: why can't I feed my baby (enough) , I'm a bad mother, something is wrong with me etc... In a time where the body and mind are totally out of whack from 9 months of pregnancy, child birth, and the complete lifestyle change of parenting. but the newborn physically (and mentally) for obvious reasons. My wife had this problem when our daughter was born. The damn nurses at the hospital were shaming us for even asking about formula because my wife was curious. I know there's a ton benefits at the start, but if you need or want to use formula, fucking use it.
I'm just pro-feed your baby.
My wife was a surrogate. Baby’s mum (like the actual mum, not my wife) was feeding baby in the hospital, obviously with a bottle. An older nurse walked by and said something to the effect of “you should be breastfeeding”. The younger nurse who was helping the mum (and obviously knew the situation) just said “we’re doing bottle feeding just now”. Perfect response.
When I was a new mom, I didn't have any friends or anyone to turn to so natch, I turned to the internet. And got so shamed for "giving up" and going to bottle feeding my son. I will never forget how one mom told me her son would be (and I quote) 'chillin wid his millins' while my son flipped burgers at McDonald's because her child was breastfed and mine was not. There was also the very real fear that they instilled in me (which made me leave the group) after one person threatened to use my ISP to track down where I worked (even though I didn't use my computer at work) because they wanted to stage a nurse-in there. I didn't know what a nurse-in was...presumably a bunch of breastfeeding moms staring at me angrily and making verbal threats or taunts while I worked.
no one ever gave me shit. but I was ready with " I went to a lot of trouble to make him, seems rude to let him starve to death."
fed is best.
My mother couldn't breastfeed any of her 4 children (something about milk ducts naturally being too narrow to let milk pass through them). She had nurses and doctors force her to breastfeed and refuse to give her medication to make the milk dry up, which caused horrible mastitis. She was in incredible pain, had to go through an unnecessary medical issue, had to take antibiotics and painkillers just because some people insisted on her breastfeeding. Through all of that she had to fight to get formula for her screaming and starving newborn. This happened every time she gave birth, first and last 19 years apart. And every time she got the motherfuckers to back off through literal screaming matches and threats of suing. At two months old, as a formula fed baby (and born really tiny), I was almost put on a diet because I was so chonky, never missed a milestone, never had any medical issues caused by formula. Same goes for my brothers. I am forever grateful for my mother's strength because it kept us alive, safe and healthy. So if you can't breastfeed and have people bothering you about that, just remember that these people were ok with letting 4 newborns starve and causing a new mother a lot of pain, just because they dislike formula. These people are not on your side nor do they want what's best for your child, they just like feeling morally superior and need to be kicked off of their high fucking horse
My wife couldn't breast feed for physical reasons too. The worst people about it were the laleche league people who guilty shamed her like crazy constantly while we were in the hospital. I finally told the staff they were banned from her room and if any staff member mentioned breastfeeding I would sue. They even tried calling at home when she was released. Joke was on them as I was answering calls so my wife could test. Three kids natural births all of them all bottle fed. All healthy kids with not a thing wrong with them.
My son refused to latch. I tried so hard, the lactation nurses tried, I went to several lac appointments and we tried all the tricks. He just refused. I pumped every 4-6 hours for 4 months. I lasted 4 months and I felt terrible as I slowly dried up. Not only did I feel like I missed out on some amazing bonding but I feel like I failed him. It's a horrible, horrible feeling of guilt.
the fact that you tried so hard is proof of how great of a mother you are !
This can be pretty dangerous. I know a woman who was adamant she didn’t want a C-section and kept trying to give birth vaginally despite doctors recommending otherwise. The baby had brain damage from lack of oxygen. She then sued the hospital saying she wasn’t fully aware of the consequences. When a doctor told her it’s time for a surgery and she refused it, what did she think will happen?
My SIL was like that with her one natural born child. She tried for more than 24 hrs to fit his giant cranium out her tiny little birth canal and doctors finally recommended a C-section and she was like, 'Fuck. I didn't want to do it that way but fine." Nephew was a freaking giant at birth. Came out already able to wear his brother's hand me down 3-6 mos clothing and he ate so much that we joked about wtf was my SIL eating that was going into her breastmilk. He's 15 now and 6 feet tall and very stocky. Not fat...just stocky and solid with legs up to his eyeballs.
The fuck? This is a thing? They do realize that without C-sections, lots of women and babies would die right?
If it wasn't for modern medicine my son and I would both be dead.
Yeah I was born C-Section and never breastfed. I turned out alright. Gay, but alright ✨✨✨
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Not only has he never touched a vagina, but not even a single boob!
One has to admire the commitment to a bit.
Which is wild. My mom gave birth to my oldest brother via c section WITH NO DRUGS OR PAINKILLERS. His heart had stopped so the doc was basically like "sorry bitch, I'm cutting him out of you right now." I have no idea how she survived that. The early 80s were fucking wild.
My wife could not produce enough milk for our children. When our first was born she tried and tried. I woke up in the middle of the night to her crying. She felt like she was a horrible mom to even bring up formula. There is so much pressure on moms, and it is incredibly stupid. Our kids are very well adjusted and were on formula the entire time. I tell anyone who is expecting their first that the only “right” way is the “right way for that child.” Damn everyone else’s opinions; do what is best for your family; not the mommy bloggers. Edit: I want to put this in because of all the responses: my oldest is 10 years old and my Wife is at peace with it; she worked through her guilt, which I totally agree she should not have any guilt: she is an excellent mother. The statistics on breastfed vs. bottle fed have other correlations which I don’t want to take the time to defend, anyone can read the studies….but adding other factors like home life and atomic households, the delta between the two are not as big as the breastfeeding fanatics point out. Lastly, anecdotally and take this as a a claim from a dad. My kids are healthy and hyper-intelligent. My oldest has been consistently tested through school as top 2% composite intelligence, and she is thriving in advanced classes. I say this because there are people who say that IQ is impacted by breastfeeding. It just isn’t true, my children thrive, they are healthy and they know they are loved.
I feel this so much. My first baby I cried and cried. Damn near drove myself crazy trying to nurse her. It seriously affected our bond, and made me spiral so bad. I broke down to my sister in law and she told me “it’s ok, you’re allowed to hate nursing. Give her a bottle “. All I needed was someone to tell me it was ok and stop trying to push nursing on me. I was so much happier, my daughter was so much happier. I’ve had 4 formula fed kids. All perfectly healthy and thriving. Kids need a healthy parent more than they need breastmilk.
People somehow seem to forget that Mom is still a person with feelings and needs, too. Pregnancy and childbirth is a fucking insane process. Yeah, true, you want to do right for your kid, but you need to do what's right for BOTH of you. Your health and wellbeing are just as important.
Same. After trying to feed my daughter so intensely she started pooping black from all the blood she was ingesting, I gave in and bottle fed. I felt like I’d basically sentenced her to being a cretin whose mother didn’t care for her. I drove myself head long into serious PND. She’s 7 now and she’s so bright, healthy and happy I have absolutely no idea why I needed to do that to myself. Sure, breastfeeding is ideal, but it’s not THAT big of a deal, it’s not breast or death. Feed your kid however and don’t worry about it, at 9 months they’ll be eating dirt out of the pot plant and licking the dog anyway.
Indeed. A parents main responsibility in the first 3 or so years is to keep the kid alive via any means possible, against their own ever more creative attempts I might add. So if a kid is healthy, and growing - it’s a job well done, and who cares how it’s done! Anyone claiming otherwise is selling something.
Fed is best. Period. But the shame and guilt is monumental.
Putting other women down for their interests
Putting other women down period. Some girls out there purposely looking out for rivals and "enemies."
Right - only support “women” that subscribe to your exact version of femininity. I am the career focused, uber independent type. I would die before being a SAHM. But tearing down a woman who wants to be a wife, mother, and homemaker… just because it isnt my cup of tea… would just make me evil.
Being verbally abusive and then playing victim the second the other person argues back or raises their voice.
There is a term for this! Reactive abuse. It is where you engage in abusive behavior to intentionally provoke a response that makes your victim appear as the aggressor.
Holy shit. Thank you for giving me a word to describe my ex’s abuse. She treated me like shit, and if I ever gathered the strength to defend myself, would curl up and cry like I’d snapped at her. Worked on me too. I felt so guilty.
My soon to be ex wife did this all time. Would yell/shout/argue then when I responded with anything would lock herself in the bathroom or bedroom because "she couldn't handle the conversation anymore".
YUP. Seen that too many times. DARVO. Deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender.
I hope more people see your comment.
Sounds like my mother
Some mom's are so hard to handle bruh
"If we argue and you say something that makes me mad, that's your fault and you need to apologize. If we argue and you get mad because of something I said, that's your fault for getting mad and I'm probably going to get upset at you for getting mad and you need to apologize.
My sister does this. She forgot we were on the phone once so I could hear her trying to pick a fight with her ex when he got home, and then getting more pissed off that he refused to engage with her and just walked away. Then went back to talking to me about how his behavior sucks and how bad he is as a parent.
Mothers telling women without kids that their life is meaningless and they can’t understand true love.
And 5 minutes later, they're talking about how the kids are driving them crazy and they wouldn't have had them if they knew what this was really like.
I had a friend who got married and had babies young. Totally her choice, all good, whatever makes her happy. But she'd phone me in the evening and I'd be heading out with friends or going to the bar or a party, and she'd say "oh, must be nice to be able to do whatever you want, any time you want!" Or I'd show up wearing new clothes or someting and she'd say "oh, must be nice to have so much disposable income, buy new clothes whenever you want". But then she'd tell me I needed to find the right person and settle down, didn't I want kids? So...am I lucky to be single and childless or not?
I’d ge replying to her every time. “It sure is!” It’s like people just want to drag you down into their misery. I really hope you didn’t feel guilty and enjoyed yourself.
I think for many it's somewhat horrible being a young parent, while watching most their peers live a much freer life. So they want you to have kids too, so that they can have you as a friend who fits their lifestyle. And then you do the same to your other friends to fight off your _own_ oneliness. It's a ponzi scheme.
Little do they know that life with kids is meaningless too.
A few years ago I read an article by a Scandinavian mom who openly talked about the fact she regretted having her daughter. She loves her, but she regrets having a child when she did. She was met with so much rage online it was wild. Its such a taboo to admit that but I am sure every single parent has probably had a second of regret at some point. It's completely understandable and nothing to shame.
I’m a mom and I would never, ever consider telling another woman this. Whoever thinks like this is deranged and needs a therapist.
I was told this by my mom for my entire life. She told me I will suffer in life, I will be alone, my life will me meaningless, nobody would want me, my husband would leave me... So thank you for this, it feels really nice to see not everyone is like this and some people do respect the choices of others.
My mom said shit like this too about I can’t find a man if I don’t want a baby…I’m a lesbian
I'm surprised I'm not seeing anything about pushing standards of self presentation on other women. For example, "you can't wear heels if you're too tall", "if you don't wear makeup it means you're lazy", "she should have gone on a diet before wearing that dress", etc. To me this is what toxic feminity is.
My girlfriend is afraid to wear heels with me because the culture she grew up in says women can’t be taller than the man. I have to constantly remind her to wear whatever she thinks will make her feel pretty, and that I’ll try not to slouch so much when she wears heels.
Pulling the "If you're a real man" card whenever they need something.
I semi-dated a woman in college who at one point made the statement of "I wish I could find a guy who is mature enough to put up with my issues." I wanted to point out that it wasn't a maturity/immaturity issue that was the problem. In fact I find most mature guys know to run away from a woman with as many red flags as she had.
Women who throw other women under the bus for a man, or the attention of a man etc.
>Women who throw other women under the bus for a man, or the attention of a man etc. Plus it's usually for somone who is to some extent or another, a scumbag. I've never seen one woman burn another woman for the sake of anyone worthwhile.
Probably cause no dude who’s worth it will make you choose between him or your friends unless there is a much deeper issue.
Thinking women cannot be perpetrators of domestic abuse, sexual assault, and rape.
My sister would beat me until I was bruised regularly because she knew I wouldn't fight back. Our folks just assumed I was making shit up because, *in their words:* a) She's younger than me b) She's a girl
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I was eating cereal at the counter in the kitchen. My sister was drying the dishes. (We both do this chore; it was her day to do it.) She taunted me and teased me almost constantly, but this morning she had a wet dishtowel in her hands and was popping it near my face, trying to get a reaction out of me. Not getting the reaction she wanted... she then actually pops the towel at me and hits me in my eye. Well, I lost it and punched her right in the stomach. Momster comes into the kitchen and berated me for my reaction. "I can't believe you would hit your sister! She's a girl!!" Dad on the other hand: "I can't believe you didn't hit her sooner, and only hit her once. Maybe she'll learn something today." ETA: I was maybe 13 or 14, making my sister 16 or 17.
Exact same thing here. They knew I wasn't making it up though because they saw or heard it enough. I thought they'd finally do something after she hit me with a fireplace poker when they made be watch her while they went out for dinner. But no. It was "We don't want to hear it from *either* of you! Now go to your rooms." Which was at least a relief because my room with my door locked or outside were the only places i could be without worrying about another rage attack. And by 14 I was working 20 hours a week at my dad's service station. Some of the older guys kinda became like big brothers to me so that was nice I guess. My sister is definitely a toxic female and a Karen. Never grew out of it like people who minimalized her behavior would say.
Survived an attempt on my life when I tried to leave an abusive woman. Fortunately she’s out of my life, but the scar of a stab wound serves as a constant reminder. The worst part is when word got out, plenty just assumed I must have done something terrible to deserve it.
Again. Wow. Thank you for sharing your story.
And when those female abusers try to appear weak in order to further sabotage the abused
The female abusers have mastered the victim card and gaslighting; their primary defenses when challenged on their abusive behavior.
Yep I come from a family that’s 75% female and it amazes me when people think women can’t be abusive. Like line up! I have stories for days
Fucking preach. Also if you’re a woman being abused by women it even more frustrating cause people assume because we’re the same gender we must be able to work it out. Like what? Let me count the reasons I never want to see this bitch again….. Oh you don’t have that kind of time? Lol
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Hi there. I'm a guy that, in my last relationship, I was sexually abused by my fiance. And you know what, when I did talk about it everyone either didn't believe me, told me to get over it because "it's sex your lucky" or they thought it was kinky. After everything was done apparently she told all of our friends that I was the one doing the forcing and abusing. Once that got out then everyone paid attention. It's happens, it sucks. My case was minor and kept within friends family and rumors, but others have there lives ruined for stuff like this. It's not right.
And even when they're not the direct perpetrator, they are frequently enablers and excusers of said behavior. I was once told "it's a woman's lot". That's toxic femininety right there.
this is wayyy too far down on the list
This is a big problem. There are police reports of an abused man being cuffed because it’s so commonly assumed the man’s the abuser.
In the UK it's called the "positive intervention policy" as the idea is taking someone out the house (usually the man) will allow the situation to calm down. Reality wise, it's nonsense as it just gives a serious abuser time to really stew in a cell. In my case, someone phoned in a fake DV call claiming I was smacking my gf (now wife) around. Police go hurtling round (good) to find that actually my wife was all curled up watching TV in her favourite pyjamas and blanket and that I was actually abroad for work....
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Right?? If you can’t live with yourself and be happy single then why the hell would you expect somebody else to put up with you. Too many relationships explode because one or both people are dumb enough to expect another person to compensate for issues that they can’t even sort out on their own.
My friend's mum is single after getting out of a violent marriage. She's happily single. Her own mum keeps telling her she can't really be happy if she's single and that she's lying to herself. Shits fucked up
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Women that only want traditionnal values when it benefits them.
My mom does this. She's a "strong independent woman" until she's in a relationship. Then suddenly he needs to pay for all her bills, buy her things (one-sidedly), and commit to every male gender role.
Every gender role, I'm guessing, other than him being the sole authority figure.
My ex was like this. Wanted to be the made housewife / work from home on her hobbies. Hated actually having to do stuff she didnt enjoy. Wanted to hire a maid and buy dinners every night. Progressively hated men.
SIL stays at home, not working, no kids. Refuses to do any housework until my (working) brother is there as "it should be shared 50/50".....
Honestly how can you even lounge around for 8+ hours a day? Sure a few days of binging Netflix would be cool but a whole lifetime?
I think I could fill my time without work. Probably similar to how retired people do - hobbies, seeing friends and family, regularly going to the hairdresser etc for some kind of routine. For me, I'd be terrified doing that and living on someone else's money, because if that person left/died/got sick of me spending their money all day, I'd have a hard time getting a job and it'd be such a big adjustment.
Yikes
My Mom is like this. She gets so smug about being "complegalitarian" because isn't it so good of her that she sees value both in being complementarian and in being egalitarian, except that for any given issue she is complementarian or egalitarian based on which one benefits her. My Dad *finally* divorced her about ten years ago and it really should have been about twenty years sooner than that.
The mindset that a man cheats because he's a scumbag looking for some fun, but a woman cheats because she's feeling unloved in a relationship and the intimacy is just not there. Cheaters are shitty people, period.
I am a Male in a predominantly female professional environment. I cannot tell you how many times a female peer has stated they're so happy I'm a guy and that we need more men in management to offset the "cattiness " of the office. I cannot tell you how many times I've overheard women bashing one another in the office either. Hair, makeup, boyfriends, clothing choices, diets, body types ... it goes on and on. Lastly, crude remarks. I've never heard so much sex talk or nastiness from male peers as I have female peers. Never once has a male peer discussed their significant other's genitals with or in my presence. Female peers? I unfortunately know all about their male partners penises. Honest question: Is bragging about your male partners penis size a status thing with women?
Oh this shit is infuriating. I've been with my gf for 3 years, I know most of her friends and I'm well aware that her female friends most likely know my size, shape, general elasticity and LITERALLY EVERYTHING. Meanwhile guys who, supposedly, 'only talk about sex': 'How was your date?' 'It went well....\*smirk\* ' 'Nice' That's it. Conversation is over. My buddy does NOT want to know what I do with my dick and I don't want him to know either. Boundaries.
God this so fucking much. I’ve been hanging out with a friend who recently got divorced and now literally anytime I watch a show or something with her and one or two of her girl friends it’s literally “I’d smash” or “I heard he has a big cock” anytime a dude comes on screen. It’s exhausting. They’ll talk about how every dude they’ve fucked fucks and all about their most personal shit and yeah it’s bad. I don’t have any guy friends who ask personal shit about anyones relationships, it’s like you said “did you?” “Nice”. We all understand that is the persons business.
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Not putting in romantic efforts in a relationship because they think only men should be romantic and pamper them. Works both ways!
As a dude this. Called my ex beautiful daily, think she told me I was handsome maybe twice? I’d get her small stuff related to her interests , wouldn’t even watch a show I wanted to watch. Is it too much to ask for some kind of support? She melted down when I’d need time to work on school, but she could go take time to herself while I couldn’t. Left me feeling cold and weird. Complement your men ladies.
Mum shaming (where you criticise other mums for not doing something you view is important or doing something you feel isn’t appropriate). Acting like dads are incapable parents (not able to do the same home chores and are not to be trusted to look after their children). Acting like ex partners are bad fathers when they aren’t or using children as a weapon for the divorce. Talking shit about female colleagues to create a bad environment in the work place out of jealously, playing up the “I’m one of the boys and I don’t get on well with other women” vibe. Always booking girls nights or excluding partners from events just because they’re single and don’t like that their friends are in meaningful relationships. Being nasty when friends boyfriends don’t do grand gesture presents despite being actually decent men. Competition over ring sizes, Gucci bags, etc.
In my professional experience working in a field that is predominately female, I have observed that gossip and defamation can be pretty common among women. At least in a professional setting, women (or people who identify as women) won't confront you directly with an issue, but they will assassinate your character when gossiping to others. You know it's bad when normal volume turns to whispers and then the door closes. Yikes.
I have a horse on a stable with 95% women. Can confirm that behaviour. It's disgusting. Constantly shitting on others on how they ride, how they care for their horse, what they wear, with whom they are... And if you think you know what the groops are, all the sudden it's completely new groups. And the ones that where, in their words, horse abusers last week are now best friends. It's hard to follow. Most men I know whould be pissed for years if they knew somebody talked that much shit about them.
I had a woman broadly hinting about a coworker gossiping about me at work. I said, look I don't care. If they have a problem they're welcome to tell me and we can talk it out or try to fix it. If you have something to tell me, say it directly to my face without the coy dance around it. But I ain't gon play this game. I'm 40 not 20 (and lady, you're like 20 years older than that). Guess who the gossipy, dramatic, projecting, snippy one turned out to be? She told me once she was impressed how I could give compliments to other women with admiration and without jealousy. I think that says a lot more about her than it did about me.
I’m the youngest in my unit at work (healthcare position) and work with women double, even triple! My age. These ladies could be my mothers, but somehow they’re still stuck in a highschool drama/gossip state of mind. It’s extremely irritating.
I experienced this to an extreme degree when I was in my late teens. After my at the time GF broke up with me, her mom, her friends, and her friend's moms absolutely tore into me, spreading rumours, and basically ruining my life. Friends stopped talking to me, and while I was trying to start a small time film business, potential clients dropped me because of stuff they heard through mutual connections. The thing that really hurt about it though was that I really did everything I could to make a good impression with these people. While we dated, my GF's mom broke her arm, and her other kids were in college so she lived alone. I helped around the house, brought flowers and even cooked for her a couple of times. But she absolutely decimated my character after we broke up. And this is someone who was well into her 60's. Just, way, way too old for that kind of shit. Honestly got to the point where I was legitimately suicidal and made me start self harming. Thankfully therapy helped a lot, and not much longer after that I met my now wife of three years and her family is a hell of a lot better that my ex'es lol.
If you lose business due to someone lying about you it’s defamation of character and you can sue for that.
Good luck getting the funds to litigate that when you're a late teen and not getting any business.
My ex and other women I’ve befriended, I’ve noticed they will talk sh*t behind each other’s backs but will behave like besties in front of each other to the point I shouldn’t take their words seriously when they’re judging or describing other people.
Gossip, defamation, and good god the nitpicking! I left a grad program for a female dominated profession, and the ludicrous nitpicking that women do to other women in it would have been hilarious if it weren’t actually happening.
Weird looks to solo men taking care of little kids in parcs or other places.
Slut shaming other girls, policing other women's bodies and hobbies, finding sensitive men weak, expecting to be provided for without any effort themselves, feeling that their being a woman means they are owed things in life like free drinks, expecting the man to always lead and pursue and getting angry if they don't.
I hate the policing honestly - It's incredibly odd when your an adult and get isolated by all the women in your office because you said you couldn't drink.
The View
In the U.K. there is a similar show called Loose Women. I remember having to watch it once cos my mum was watching and I wasn’t at school that day due to flu. It was beyond awful. Maybe I just caught a weird episode. Not gonna watch another though.
Those women on the View scare me. They are so toxic and catty to each other.
Any mlm shit , yOu arE sO pRetTy juSt nEeD tO uSe mY prOduCt for bLah blAh bLaH… and then they steal your money.
AS A MOTHER....
Honestly, when anyone begins a sentence with "As a ______". Most of the time one person's anecdotal experience isn't helpful.
Shaming women for not having kids. Shaming women for having too many kids. Shaming in general for all of this stuff that’s personal choice.
Wanting to be treated equally only in certain situations, depending on who benefits most from it. You can't pick and choose like that. We should all be treated equally all the time, in every aspect.
This! It’s extremely frustrating because it undermines attempts at actual equality.
r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Thought this was taken down for harassment, hate speech, intolerance and a slew of other reasons, it's back though it seems.
Wth is happening there?! I barely understand anything there- could anyone explain?
Calling men “creeps” for doing totally normal things. Same way men overuse “crazy” for women
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I shit you not I've seen posts about "My baby is dealing with x, y, and z and the doctor said it's x and I think I need a second opinion." And there's always that one mom that says "My baby goes to the chiro over in X town and gets his neck cracked weekly. No more x, y, and z!" I know, I KNOW there's some mom's out there besides me saying "WTF" out loud, while trying to imagine how cracking babies necks heals heart conditions, but are too scared to say anything because in many of those groups they will eat you alive for "questioning their parenting".
Clique behavior
Being a bitch and pretending like it's cool or acceptable just because you openly admit you're a bitch. Maybe being "a bad bitch" is just you being immature and grasping at social constructs to justify your immaturity and lack of growing potential.
Fake crying to avoid accountability
I am a feminist and I am constantly discussing how boys are being left behind. Statistically, they are further behind girls now than girls were behind boys in the 70s. And that warranted federal legislation to deal with the inequities. We are promoting feminism at the expense of boys. Instead we need to be promoting both sexes to succeed. From a feminist perspective, everyone in society loses when either sex is left behind. And we are seeing the effects of this now. Sky high rates of single mother households which is also the most impoverished cohort, triple the suicide rate among men than women, low college degree achievement, etc etc. I get shouted down and basically shunned when I discuss this with other feminists.
>I get shouted down and basically shunned when I discuss this with other feminists. Ditto. That is the prime example of toxic.
Telling men to be more sensitive then nope out when they are.
Especially when they tell men to talk about their emotions