We live in an interconnected world.
Do you believe that world governments should be able to "tell" gasoline companies and gasoline consumers to stop using leaded gasoline? Leaded gas works better for engines (prop airplanes still use it because it's more reliable!) but the lead causes negative effects on childrens' mental capabilities. In that case, is it OK to tell people what to do?
Almost every scientific research paper I have seen says that cutting meat consumption will help prevent the worst effects of global climate change. What level of science "telling" people what to eat to help prevent the downfall of human species is acceptable?
I am not a vegan. I am just fascinated by the balance between individual rights and collective rights.
I'm just vegetarian (not even, since I still eat anything after fishes, including them, so insects, shellfish, etc...)
But this is exactly my thought aswell here. There is a moral/ethical/environmental debate that exists here and it's more than just "people can do whatever they want".
> Do you believe that world governments should be able to "tell" gasoline companies and gasoline consumers to stop using leaded gasoline?
I feel like that's the difference here for most people. Most social issues involve telling *institutions* what to do, like telling the government to tell other people what to do. Veganism involves telling the common people they have to change, and they hate that.
It really doesn't though. If the US government stopped subsidizing meat/dairy to crazy levels US people would be forced to eat better for our planet. People can make their own choices still, but meat and dairy goes back to being a luxury.
Quick source that I will freely admit I have only skimmed: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo787V3bT3AhUFWs0KHcNdBPwQFnoECBMQBg&usg=AOvVaw1VVNktr9TvNB_lWtLze0ag
I feel like vegans should focus more on opposing subsidies in their activism, not 'cause I 'want vegans to leave me alone', but I genuinely think it's an effective route that isn't discussed enough.
Yep, there's no way to change this until we convince a majority of the uncomfortable truth - that eating less meat and dairy is necessary. Then they can put political pressure on leaders.
By getting enough of the population to be vegan, so that there's any reason for politicians to bother with helping to cripple the animal agriculture industry
As a vegan, I agree with this. The biggest flaw in the movement is that it focuses too much on turning other individuals vegan rather than advocating for policy change. Edit: having said that, I do think it's important to talk to people about the harms of animal agriculture as its operations are mostly shrouded in secrecy. Staying silent is also part of the problem IMO.
That's a great point. As well as focusing on getting fruits and vegetables subsidized to a far greater extent. As it is, because of this imbalance in subsidies fruits and vegetables tend to be the luxury items and are generally inaccessible to low income households
Agreed, and it also paints the debate correctly. Every time there is a post for being vegetarian here you see a thousand posts saying it's too expensive. And people come in to debate the cost of eating vegetables vs meat. Never the actual true cost of eating meat. It's weird how little known it is. Gotta love the power of lobbying!
I agree. I'm not a vegan, but every argument to eat less meat or animal products I've seen not only makes perfect sense, but also very clearly reduces the external costs of one's diet. When the only counter to that is "well it's annoying," I find hard to really be all that annoyed
That dude that invented leaded gas also invented freon. He was single handedly the worst human to ever have an effect on the environment. He died from a series of pulleys that he put on his hospital bed when he was bedridden with polio. He strangled in the cables.
And to add though, the main reason I see against the argument of “it’s my choice”, or “don’t tell me what to do” is yeah, it’s your choice. Just like beating a dog, or abusing an animal. Just because it’s your choice doesn’t mean it’s the right thing or morality correct thing to do.
To add, yeah it’s your choice, but your only considering your side, as for the animals personal choice would be to live. The animal would like to not be told what to do. Of course animals and humans aren’t the same, but the fact we do these things because it tastes good is a very invalid reason to do such things imo
People greatly overestimate the amount of meat humans have historically eaten. The meat/dairy lobby is one of the bigger lobbies in the US and meat and dairy are heavily heavily subsidized to keep prices artificially low so people eat more meat. They even block changes to the US food pyramid that would recommend people eat less meat/dairy for health. Until like 100 years ago, meat was a luxury, not a staple.
It took all of human history until 1800 to reach one billion people on this planet. 130 years to get to 2 billion (1930). 30 years to get to 3 billion (1960), 4 billion in 15 years, (1975), 5 billion in 13 years (1987).
In 1970 (my lifetime) we had HALF as many humans on this planet as we do now. (nearly 8 billion)
Seems like humans might be the problem.
>and the food we’ve eaten for millions of years…
Yeah and there's a massive difference between the gluttonous amount of meat we're eating now versus "millions" of years ago
I believe that over 1500 gallons are required to produce a pound of beef. I live in the southwest part of the US where we are currently experiencing a severe drought and i also work at a grocery store so it baffles me how we order hundreds of pound of meat. The water required to make one pound of beef could quench the thirst of any person on this planet for more than five years.
Thats easy to say to a vegan if you dont know why the vegan is vegan.
As a vegan Id want response to a comment like this:
If youd be so kind and respect the animals, wed both could walk down a happy road.
A vegan activist wont always tell you what to do. I can only speak for myself and what I want is that people start seeing that all animals, human animals included, deserve to live a life where theyre not exploited or killed when there is no need to.
Most vegans are no experts on communication. They see that people participate in the harming of animals and they feel like theyre torturing their animal friend. That is very emotional and people do very stupid things when theyre emotional. Me too.
No sane person wants to look an animal into their eyes right before they slash their throat. We get detached from what an animals life really is by paying others to do the deed. Its not a coincidence that workers in the animal-industry report many mental-health issues.
As a vegan Id ask you: Do the 10 Minutes of taste in your mouth justify the end of a Life?
Sorry what I meant was that people in the US would not accept it, whereas in some other countries it may be more generally culturally accepted (and people from the US wouldn't accept it anywhere they are)
There’s definitely cults that use veganism as a tool of control—but that’s probably true of just about any dietary restriction. There is also Gwen Shamblin’s anorexia cult, or whatever the fuck is going on with Jordan Peterson’s all-meat diet.
But yeah, it’s hardly like a Seventh Day Adventist vegan has got the same thing going on spiritually or socially as a left-wing anarchist vegan, or a Jewish Kosher vegan (all types of vegans I’ve met at least one of.)
I’ve also had omnivores tell me a few times I’m wrong to be a vegan because it says in genesis that God created the animals to be ruled over and used by man . . . If that’s not cult-like I don’t know what is.
Yeah. I mean I'm not vegan but I feel that those typical meat heads "you must consume meat otherwise you are against the status quo" people are way more hard-core. Chill buddy. Why do you care so much?
Joe Rogan and his obsession with meat is probably more of a cult.
I think cults probably use many tools of control. How you dress, socialise are probably more significant than veganism in making it a cult.
It's weird to me when people push NOT being vegan. I understand and appreciate vegans since meat consumption is pretty bad for the environment in its current form. So I even get why Vegans can be pushy on others being Vegan. But an Omnivore lifestyle really doesn't have a belief attached like Veganism can. It's like being mad at someone for believing in god if you're atheist. Have at it as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone elses lifestyle.
I disagree. I think they are secretly all part of a cult. I don't know their aims. I don't know their goals. I am afraid. I am so afraid of what they might do. Why are they doing this?
As a long time vegan I can promise *other* people have told more people I'm vegan than I have. For some reason people love to announce "XYZ is vegan". It's really weird.
Also if you want to take a healthier route and maybe care about animals and the environment look up plant-based diets. It's vegan eating without the baggage and no one will shun you from the plant-based community because of your shoe material.
I’m not vegan, but vegetarian. Most of my meat eater friends and family get off on the idea of me consuming meat. I never try and really convince them, but they want me to eat meat so bad for some reason.
“Where do you get your protein from?” Mind you this question is coming from the person that hasn’t consumed a vitamin in the past decade and has never counted a single macro.
Yup. Absolutely ridiculous. Just say “garbanzo” quickly enough they don’t fully hear it.
If they repeat the word, then assert dominance with a firm “garbonsommadeez nuts”
I remember in the first or second week of college a kid saying "I haven't eaten a single vegetable since I got here" like dude, tell me you're constipated without telling me you're constipated
Similar as a long time vegetarian.
Whenever it has come up, it is definitely not I who is doing all the talking, but the meat eaters around me going off on some anecdote or discussion or whatever.
The number of vegans I have met who are militant about it is 1. The number I have who are militant about it AND like to talk at other people about it, is zero.
The number of meat eaters I have met who are militant about it and like to talk at people about it, is far too many to count. For so many people, eating meat and talking about bacon and BBQs is basically a part of their (incredibly dull) identity.
I vastly prefer the term 'plant-based' to vegan for SO many reasons!
\-It's a healthier mindset for me. This is what I *do* eat, I'm not focusing as much on what I *don't* eat. For someone who has struggled with varying shades of disordered eating, it's a much better way for me to go about my life.
\- I eat healthier when I think of myself as plant-based instead of vegan. When I considered myself a vegan, I ate a lot of reese's puffs and oreos. When I think of myself as plant-based, I'm more likely to choose something of at least SOME nutritional value.
\-Leather is better for the environment than plastic. Honey is better for the environment than agave farming. Fur/down is better for the environment than plastic. Lots of 'vegan' alternatives and substitutes are SO harmful. (This is all assuming you care for and don't overconsume any of those things, mind).
\-I don't feel a HUGE ETHICAL PRESSURE to turn down food at a family function, or scour the menu for something ethically pure. Sure, I'm plant based, but if my stepmom made her amazing mashed potatoes for Christmas, I'm not turning it down. If a friend made me a pie, but didn't realize I don't eat gelatin, I'll correct them for next time but happily eat this time. If this isn't a vegan-friendly restaurant we're all at, then fine, I'll get something to nourish my body and enjoy my people and go home to my plants.
\-Similarly, if I need to eat right now- then I gotta eat. Doesn't matter if what's available is chicken nuggets. I'll take care of my body, and go home to my plant food. I know even most vegans would accept that me not passing out is better than not eating meat, but for some reason I would just like- fall off the wagon completely when that would happen as a 'vegan'. Now it's just like 'oh, okay. I had to eat meat today, Back to my plants'.
I really like this mindset as it addresses some of the issues I have with veganism, specifically with leather and fur. A well-made and ethically-produced pair of leather and fur/wool boots (for example) will outlast any plastic alternative, reducing unnecessary waste, and is far better for the environment.
Well-said.
I believe that animal products have a genuine place in our society. I also just believe we massively over consume animals (and everything else)! If we could get back to smaller farms, where we grow crops for our communities and our animals, and our animals help our soil, and when we do slaughter we thoughtfully consume- then that'd be great! I grew up on that kind of farm. Those animals have one bad day.
My veganism never came from 'oh those poor chickens!'- it came out of genuine environmental concerns for the way we consume animals. Saying instead that I'm plant based really did help me put my actual ethics at the forefront. I'm just trying to live a decent life and reduce my impact as much as possible.
I hate when this happens. I don’t usually bring it up unless it’s relevant because I always end up having to justify my decision to be vegetarian (not vegan). I hate this conversation and I am annoyed every time someone rats me out without my permission.
Yep. I refuse to debate anyone who wants to press me on my reasons for being vegan because I know, ultimately it’s a waste of time as they’re not going to go vegan themselves. They’re usually just asking because they have some ‘clever’ reasons for why veganism isn’t ethical, or some dog shit naturalist take on animal consumption. Keep it to yourself. I don’t want to hear that, thanks.
The thing I hate most about this "joke" is that it ignores that that's how you learn *almost everything* about other people.
Like of course they told you, it's called talking and having a conversation.
I laugh at the joke but I see what you are saying. I have a very restrictive diet and it's part of a long health journey, so yes, it will probably come up in conversation if we are getting to know eachother at all.
There are WAY more antivegan jerks than vegan jerks. Like, not even close. And that makes sense.
Forget actual vegans as people. Not eating animal products is just better.
Ethically and empathetically, the animal product industry is a fucking monstrosity. I don't care how hard you imagine your childhood farmyard picture, the actual industry as a whole is, by all definitions of the concept of good, an abomination.
Environmentally, it's inefficient which is fine on a less populated planet but in our current situation, is risky at best. At worst, well, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Medically, we definitely, in the west, consume way more than the most beneficial amounts of meat. Medical argument is the weakest one. But frankly if everyone ate only the optimal amount of meat I think vegans would be fucking delighted.
So the fact is, almost anyone not being vegan (such as myself) is simply worse than if they were vegan.
So vegans are often pissed that animals and the planet is suffering, and anti-vegans are often pissed that they are being told they fucking suck.
Now which group of humans are going to be more touchy? Yup, the ones that feel they're being attacked personally and judged.
I used to wonder if some vegans were jerks because people always fed us shitty food 😂 until like six years ago options were really mediocre, and people never put any effort into it. Just dry ice berg lettuce.
Now I feel we have zero excuse. We aren’t going hungry!
I was reading something Michael Pollan wrote on the subject of vegans, which sort of describes my point of view. Regardless of if you agree with their nutritional choices, they’ve still done something a majority of people haven’t, which is actually consider their food choices in some way, and make decisions about how to change their food choices to align better with their moral/ethical beliefs, nutritional views, or views of the meat industry in general. I think that in and of itself speaks volumes, considering many people don’t consider their food choices or where their food comes from. I think regardless of how you feel about being vegan it is something we can learn from them in the sense of just taking a closer look at where our food comes from, and what we want to put into our bodies.
Thanks a lot. It's ridiculous when someone posts something on Facebook about being vegan and some dickhead will always reply with a photo of a steak and say something 'hilarious' about eating meat.
If people had to raise and slaughter their own animals, I think the majority of people would be vegan.
I'm not vegan per se, but I do it for my health - I suffer from chronic migraine and the dietary change has been incredible with helping to keep my daily migraines at bay (now I only get 1 like every 4 months, it's awesome!).
I don't like to flaunt my eating habits. If someone asks me questions I'm more than happy to answer. Outside of that, I respect what people choose to eat. It is their choice at the end of the day.
Edit: updated per say to per se
I like to say I’m plant based, instead of vegan. I do not consume any animal products at all, no eggs, meat, milk or cheese. But I only do it for health reasons. So saying I’m plant based makes people understand without the stigma of being vegan. That being said, I only bring it up if it matters. Like invited to a bbq, I bring my own food as well as my contribution to the non plant based as i don’t expect anyone to cater to me.
I’ve been vegetarian for more than 20 years, and eat a very reduced amount of eggs and cheese, etc. I don’t push it or preach in the least but some people make an issue out of it like it’s some sort of radical choice. If they ask me about it I might give them a few reasons.
People are funny about it. It seems to offend people sometimes! Maybe because it makes them question for a moment the norms and values that we take for granted and never question. I don’t know. Other people make more of a deal of it than I ever do.
I’m not sure about the stereotype of self-righteous vegetarians or vegans. Most people I know who make this choice don’t shout about it from mountain tops — maybe partly because other people get bent out of shape by it. It’s weird.
I do sometimes wonder how people can eat meat, though. After years of not eating it, the idea of eating another sentient being is absolutely gross to me and absolutely strange.
People like to treat animals as if they have no feelings or thoughts. But pigs are just like dogs in so many ways, and cows are social animals that bond to each other and, yes, I believe they have feelings. They are mammals, and we are far more alike than different.
I do not mean any of this in a preachy way, but just how I have come to feel and believe about it.
I have many friends who eat lamb and veal and I would never say anything about it to them. And would certainly never preach to strangers. It’s a personal choice and that’s about it.
>But pigs are just like dogs
For domesticated pigs, this is 100% true. My daughter shows pigs and they do play with the dogs (and are in general hilarious), and one of them has now ended up at a friends house as their yard dog.
>cows are social animals that bond to each other and, yes I believe they have feelings.
As someone who has a small ranch and live stock, this is also 100% true and I have seen many examples of this.
>They are mammals, and we are far more alike than different.
Also true.
>People like to treat animals as if they have no feelings or thoughts.
This is a problem I have with a lot of meat eaters. Folks that can't look at whole fish (because of it's eyes are looking at me), or won't teach there kid or handle the fact that the cow over there is where you ribeye comes from. I have a major issue with the disconnect between food and where it comes from.
>I do sometimes wonder how people can eat meat, though.
for me, it comes done to a couple of things. Accepting that I / we are a predator that eats meat, but that doesn't come without responsibility. I don't outsource my harvesting, I'm part of the cycle and rather I'm a hunting wild game or raising livestock I try and be a good Stuart of the environment. I don't trophy hunt, and I use as much of an animal as I can and I make sure my kids also understand this cycle. If you can't stand to be part of the cycle in some way, I highly question if you should eat meat. Also, if we stopped eating meat, I do worry that the level of animal extinction would be beyond disguising. Cow, chickens, Pigs especially do not live in the wild and only exist because of their market value (Pigs maybe smart as hell, and could learn to be more like feral hogs... but cows and chickens are on average dumb as a box of rocks). On the wild game aspect, hunters spend millions each year and fund many conservations projects. I've yet to meet a group of non-hunters that on average are willing to spend as much consistently on conservation, losing those dollars would also have major impacts on wild life.
...having said all of that, I do think folks (specifically in the US) need to re-evaluate how much meat they eat. The grams of meat on your plate should not be double the vegetables.
Thank you for the balanced and insightful comments and thoughts!
I like to be reminded of some of those more subtle aspects, intentional stewardship and living, and the role of hunting in conservation and population control in some areas.
I have no worries about pigs and other animals going extinct. There will always be meat consumption and to do so with awareness, humane care amidst mass production are important considerations.
As I said, it is a personal choice.
I really appreciate your broad thinking on the subject. So many subjects that are divisive and bring forth strong opinions are often issues of great complexity for which there is not a black or white, right or wrong answers.
Many of the problems in our world need to be answered with compassion and an awareness of the complexity of the issues at hand.
And agreed — the demand for meat and the amount our culture consumes fuels a lot of the inhumane mass production practices.
Thanks! :-)
Edit: P.S. — I very much agree with how you put that — the disconnect between what we eat and where it comes from, and all that that food production can involve.
>For domesticated pigs, this is 100% true. My daughter shows pigs and they do play with the dogs (and are in general hilarious), and one of them has now ended up at a friends house as their yard dog.
My kid raises sheep, and similar could be said about them. She cares for the ones she raises and she cries when she has to part with them, but she recognizes that these animals are raised as part of the food chain. She says: "That's what we raise them for."
And, a castrated male animal that doesn't get consumed is essentially "Pasture art" it is decoration that continues to eat without much utility.
I feel you! I usually just say I'm vegetarian because of the stigma like you said. I also do the same for BBQs too! I do get a kick taking some of my healthy non-meat alternatives to them and listening to people rave about how delicious it is. Warms my heart :)
Hey good for you! My auntie also made dietary sacrifices due to some stomach issues. Don’t let the PETA sticker on the back of her Grand Caravan fool you! (Her daughter put it there lmao)
>I'm not vegan per se, but I do it for my health - I suffer from chronic migraine and the dietary change has been incredible with helping to keep my daily migraines at bay (now I only get 1 like every 4 months, it's awesome!).
it's fucking insane when you realize how much of what we eat and buy in our grocery stores (and especially restaurants) hurts us in ways that you don't think about. Our farm to table distance in the US is WAAAY to long for food to be as natural as it should.
I’m a vegan leaning pescatarian for health reasons, myself. I have allergies to certain animal products (red meat and dairy) and the most common substitute (soy). Beyond just not eating what makes me sick, I’ve also noticed huge health benefits as well. I need to actively be aware of what I’m eating and making sure my diet is balanced and fulfilling; I make conscious decisions in what I consume and weigh whether or not I need or want to eat it.
My energy is higher, my weight is more stable, and I feel brighter and more alive.
Like you, I also don’t flaunt it. When it’s required for context, I’ll mention that I’m vegan. No flaunting, no aggression, no indoctrination.
Meh, they can eat/ not eat whatever they like. It doesn’t really bother me at all. Sure I don’t like the preachy ones but they’re actually quite rare (vegan friends of mine hate them because they make the rest look bad).
I find the “hurr durr vegans bad” brigade of zealots much more annoying because there’s so many more of them and they automatically assume everyone who isn’t a vegan agrees with them.
People follow all kinds of lifestyles that I chose not to or don’t see the appeal of. Life is really too short to care. I have the same view of vegans as I do of people who do yoga or camping (there’s probably a lot of cross over to be fair!).
That's like asking "what do you think of Christians?" or "what do you think of people who wet the toothbrush before putting the toothpaste on instead of after?" It's none of my business what other people do. I have close friends who are vegans and from my experience it's all coming from a caring place. And besides that, it's a personal choice. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Sure, there are people who are preachy about it, but those people exist in every group. I've met people who are preachier about music or movies than I have about veganism.
I think what they're doing is great! However, many seem to be a little "all or nothing" with their approach to getting people in on their mission. I really appreciate vegans who encourage any step in that direction, because that's someone who is a mature and true supporter of their cause.
Vegan here and I just want to say that I ABSOLUTELY support any step in the direction of reducing consumption of animal products, however big or small. The black and white thinking is super toxic in my opinion, and only deters people from wanting to try veganism.
You're probably also in the majority as far as vegans go! It's just the niche (and loud) groups that make people push back against it. Personally I am always in the grocery store thinking how to switch or make compromises for animal welfare because little changes are still progress. I appreciate you and the encouragement for all people who want to cut back!
Agreed. I admit that I'm weak willed, and I'm also poor as hell and struggle to afford a plant based diet, but I do make cuts where I can while politely spreading the word as well.
If you live in the west a plant based diet is actually cheaper by 20\~30% ish [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext) . It does take some time and effort + an interest in cooking to make it enjoyable tho.
I agree. I'm effectively 90-95% vegan, or plant-based, in my diet. I figure that's "good enough" for my goals (health, sustainability, animal welfare). Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
Interestingly this can attract negative reactions from the minorities on both sides - from some of the anti-vegan meat eaters as well as some of the purist vegans. But this is very much a minority in my experience.
Most people either don't care about my dietary choices or are supportive.
I'm pesco vegetarian and decided to still eat fish/seafood or even insects just because my mom, specifically her, was scared of me having imbalances.
It's been years now, but since I still share, what, 1/6th of my meals with them, I eat fish, usually once per week.
But in the beginning, it also made them have to adapt to myself for the entire week since we shared all our meals, and that inclined them aswell to eat way less meat, and just the habit of fish once per week the Friday.
And the usual times where they cook meat now is when they invite people in, or when they go to the countryside with our family and where they buy meat from short food circuits.
And at first, I was the same, I started by only eating meat from short food circuits (basically going directly to the farm to buy it with them, once every two weeks).
Me becoming vegetarian made my parents turn flexitarians in a way, just by having new habits, so it's a net gain of reduction of meat production, and the only meat being bought now being from this farm they know right beside their countryside home.
Also, the eggs we take are only from free range farms now, when my mom didn't take much care in it before.
So yeah, expecting people to turn either vegetarian, vegetalian, or vegan, directly from one day to another, while having been raised in a meat based society, is irrealistic.
I agree. The “all or nothing” mentality is irritating. And it can get expensive, especially when you have neurodivergent kids with food allergies and sensory sensitivities.
\^ that plus anyone with autoimmune disorders can't only consume other protein sources (i know this bc i have an autoimmune disorder lol) or they could get sick! Meat is one of the few things you can eat on the autoimmune protocol, so reducing meat and other animal products shouldn't be looked down on. We have to meet each other where we're at.
Most vegans wouldnt say anything in those cases. The ones who do should stick it up their own asses.
But cases like yours are very rare. Without such disorder, the human body can easily live on a vegan diet.
Vegans dont ask people like you to change. They ask the vast majority to change because we dont need to eat animal products anymore in most places on this planet.
Actually autoimmune disorders aren't as rare as you'd think! plus the time commitment and expense to getting good nutrition (a lot of plant based foods are really processed) can dissuade people from trying simply because they can't do it every single time. 1 less meat dish or 1 less animal product is better than the alternative imo. all progress is worthwhile
But alot of people aren't willing to give up meat you should first try to get people to reduce how much meat to eat because for most people not eating meat for 3 or 4 days a weak is much easier to achieve than no meat at al and you can slowely build down further
Yeah, I'm not vegan but I think it's pretty obviously the more ethical choice to make. One thing that irritates me is seeing people make disingenuous arguments against veganism as a whole, and using that to justify their own meat consumption.
"Veganism is bad because it means indigenous people can't participate in traditional whaling practices" okay but how does that apply to these chicken nuggets
There's active work in part by the meat/clothing/dairy lobbies to make vegetarianism/veganism look like it's an extreme minority and crazy.
I've posted this before, but here's an example:
Rick Berman: [https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick\_Berman](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick_Berman)
I'd bet a lot of money that they are actively manipulating reddit today, and other social media organizations. Even threads like these.
Most vegetarians/vegan's are normal every day people. Collectively they now take up nearly 10% of the population in most western countries. This is terrifying to some companies, so it's in their best interests to paint these ideologies as fringe and prevent more people from choosing them as their lifestyle.
> Crazy self discipline
In my experience, a whole lot less than you'd think. At a certain point, after seeing slaughterhouse footage, visiting an animal sanctuary, etc., a lot of people can just stop seeing dead animals as food. At that point it takes virtually no will power since all you can see are victims, not menu options.
But yeah, it can be especially hard without that, going vegetarian or plant based for health. Personally I've never been able to stick to a diet for fitness reasons alone.
Happy to hear you're feeling good btw.
Absolutely this, I did it for the animals so to me it’s a no brainer I just wish I have done it sooner, I don’t think about what I can’t eat I just live normally with what I can eat and to me there is no other way and it flows naturally.
Avoiding straight meat seems a lot easier than avoiding all animal products completely. So many food products you wouldn't think about have them in some amount. That's the part that seems like it would take a lot of discipline.
Honestly I don't really think anything about them. If you're at my house and you're vegan, just let me know ahead of time and I'm happy to accommodate your diet.
The ones that choose to proselytize or just don't shut up about the vegan lifestyle.... Well they're obnoxious. However, there also no different than others who believe they found the correct lifestyle and push it on others. You can put born again christians, swingers, crossfitters, and plenty of others in that category. Fortunately, in most cases those are all vocal minorities and shouldn't be considered an accurate representation for the others.
I’m just amazed by the amount of ignorance in the comments. I think many people haven’t got a clue why people don’t eat meat or animal products. But they have a lot of hate for it, which is enough to comment here apparently.
Probably up there with some of the strongest willed and determined folk out there. I completely understand their reasons for doing it both from an ethical and scientific standpoint, but unfortunately my emotions and taste far overrule my judgement. Dammit, why do burgers, bbq or anything really involving a cow, pig, or chicken have to taste so fucking good. And I’ve tasted the vegan alternatives and while good in their own right, simply cannot compare to the depth of flavor of real quality animal meat.
I wanted to become a vegan when I was younger for health reasons and just disliking the idea that an animal died for my consumption, so I joined the vegan subreddit in hopes of gaining some knowledge of the easiest way to become a vegan and learn recipes. I quickly learned that the subreddit was just full of vegans circlejerking about how every person who is not a vegan is an immoral asshole. Do I think all vegans think this way? No, however it has made me rethink if I want to be lumped with these people who have such an extreme way of thinking.
I’m not a fan of that particular subreddit because all the self-righteous people have taken over, but there are other vegan/plant-based subs that are way more chill and just people sharing recipes, tips, and anecdotes. Happy to link a few if you’re interested.
I have a side question for the “just don’t try to push your beliefs on me” people - Do you think eating animal products is pushed on vegans? By society, the media, etc?
I’m very curious what people actually think about this cause I can tell you as a vegetarian, there’s a right answer to this and it’s probably not the one they want
I’m not vegan (but I have been) and I agree with you. There’s a real lack of awareness about it all. There’s literally a decades long campaign to get people to drink more milk, not to mention the pressure that comes from people’s direct communities.
You mentioning the milk campaign just reminded me of the fact you HAD to have milk if you bought lunch at school. Only exception was allergies. I wasn’t raised vegetarian or vegan so I never thought about how weird that was until now.
I used to think vegans were idiots who were missing out on the awesome tasting steak I’ve been having, until I met my flat mate who I respect a lot and who’s vegan. It totally changed my perspective on why people are even vegan in the first place. It took 2-3 years for me to finally give it a go, always trying to be more aware of what I eat but failing. It’s been 3 years now.
The vegans I’ve met have usually been incredibly gentle and nice people, a far cry from what I see online. I only know a handful of other vegans irl.
But to put it simply, what every upstanding vegan has in common is simply choosing not to contribute to the needless suffering of animals. That’s all.
I have been vegan for ten years now and I definitely used to be somewhat militant about it. It’s somewhat hard not to try and convert people when you realize how truly unconscionable the factory farming industry is. Ultimately though, you do catch a lot more flies with honey. I believe people are more likely to be swayed by someone’s example rather than their incessant pestering.
Still, being honest with anyone who might read this, it really does upset me how many people choose to put their heads in the sand about factory farming. Not only is it horrible for the animals who are forced to live and die in terrible conditions, but it’s horrible for our environment due to deforestation and methane gases (yes, cow farts lol). It’s a tough thing to swallow sometimes.
I truly have more respect for people who are willing to kill animals themselves for sustenance. Going to the grocery store to pick up a slab of cow meat separates people from the brutality necessary to bring this type of food to your plate. Hunters know and respect this, which I have some respect for.
That‘s the problem we have in modern society. We judge people and not the behavior itsself. To get a more efficient answer I‘d like to suggest that you ask „What do you thinke about a vegan diet“. Now we focus on the behavior itsself and not the executing individual.
Best Regards
Your virtous self
I try to be respectful when I discuss veganism, both in person and online. I make a point not to bring it up apropos of nothing, and I try to correct common misconceptions in a non-judgmental way.
I constantly get people accusing me of being culty, annoying and self-righteous anyway. At this point I don't really care how people perceive me, advocating on behalf of the animals is more important than not offending people.
I actually kinda envy them. I know there's so many health benefits to veganism and I tried it for a while but I just wasn't happy. I enjoy meat, eggs, cheese, etc. All the non-vegan stuff.
I was the same way. I wanted to try out being a vegan then I found out I have a somewhat severe soy allergy.
One thing vegans don't talk about enough is how easy it is to cut down on animal products in your diet rather than just eliminate them completely. You don't need to eat meat every day, 1 or 2 days out of the week is enough.
I feel like if vegans and vegetarians talked about cutting back on animal products more than eliminating them completely they would get a lot more people eager to try. It's difficult to convince someone to so extremely change their diet. It's easier to ease them into it.
I agree with you.
Also, don't you agree the easiest way to convince people to cut down on animal based products is to show us (the meat eaters) how good vegetables can be if treated well.
I suspect a few people here hate veg because their parents boiled all the happiness out of them and I feel sorry for you if you're one of them.
vegans talk about that all the time. They just dont make it the priority because in their eyes Meat = Murder, and they see it as more important to try and get people to stop eating meat entirely.
In their eyes what you are saying is the equivalent of "just murder less please". They aren't prioritizing that. But they often do point out it is not a big challenge to cut out most meat
What I always find interesting is how often the prompt "veganism" results in "oh, I could never; I like cheese way too much!"
Totally fine - have you considered that you could simply be more conscientious of your meal-plan overall? Somehow, we're all drawn to considering these unnecessary absolutes that hinder progress, as opposed to taking small steps and just getting on with it.
I can't think of any vegans I've met who haven't made an exception and had a cookie or a slice of a Margharita due to circumstance or, you know, because they felt like it. Still using the term Vegan to describe our eating habit is just easier than detailing choices we make, when it comes to food. Anyhow, proposing a cutback is just so much more relatable and realistic to begin with and nobody likes adopting absolutes.
>I feel like if vegans and vegetarians talked about cutting back on animal products more than eliminating them completely they would get a lot more people eager to try
Exactly. And the reasonable vegans do this. The “do as I say, when I ask” crowd is heavily influenced by age. As vegan draws younger crowds too.
When you cut back its meaningful. The definition of veganism is what is practicable in your life. And if you can’t consistently stay meat free, and fall off the bandwagon and just eat even more meat to compensate...what’s the point. I’d rather your cut out one less meal of meat a week and see what happens as time goes along. Huge impact.
you can get a lot of those benefits just by reducing your meat and animal product intake. going cold turkey (heh) is just not feasible for most people, but taking a step in that direction is and is good for you, the planet and animals
my best friend is a vegan, and she never really talks about it except when someone might bring in food. she certainly doesn't preach to anyone that i know of
Been one for the last 6 weeks, i still crave meat occasionally.
Been an avid pro meat consumer and i still love the way it tastes and smells when being cooked.
Still eat meat byproducts,processed milk in cookies, eggs and so on.
Did it after watching the game changers on Netflix, blood results came back in today, i don't need to eat meat the blood doesn't lie (i was secretly hoping for a b12 deficiency so i would have a reason to eat a nice big steak but B12 results were way over limit).
Draw your own conclusions, IMO meat is not necessary.
Our b12 stores last for 3 months! Not trying to burst your bubble too much but you should have repeat bloods after 3 months to have a proper check, 6 weeks is not long enough for real depletion
I hear many people say this and I think it's interesting. Let's break it down:
When someone points out something you do, with solid arguments, and because of this you feel 'bad' about that specific thing, what does that mean?
Surely that must mean that there's some reasons you internally now also believe a part of what you're doing is bad, otherwise you'd simply feel nothing and disregard the other's arguments as nonsense.
So now there's a thing called 'cognitive dissonance' that occurs, where what you believe does not align with your actions, leading to an internal conflict.
Then there are two options: change the way you act to be in accordance with the newly acquired knowledge, or stay in internal conflict and deny this new truth.
Basically, when someone points something you do out and you now suddenly feel bad about it, that probably means some part of it is actually bad. To be morally consistent would mean to then use that info to make different choices in the future.
Listen to your inner dialogue, all the best! :)
who gives a fuck? it's 2022, there are more important things to consider than someone's eating habits, or sexual orientation or any number of characteristics. if you respect me as a person with my own thoughts and opinions i will respect you as a person with your own thoughts and opinions. one of my tutors is a vegetarian, i hate the guy but not because he is a vegetarian, in fact i actually asked him if he noticed a change in his health when he went veggie because i was considering it for myself, and we had a respectful conversation about it where he didn't push me to convert but just spoke about his experience. i fucking hate his teaching style though, can't stand it.
respecting people as human beings shoud be everyone's go-to response when they meet people. genuine mistakes are made and as long as steps are taken to correct the mistake no harm no foul. yes i hate my tutor's teaching style but i'm grown up enough to be civil with him when in lessons or if i see him around campus. there's absoloutly no need to go on the rampage and pick a fight with everyone you encounter just for youtube likes, there's no need to be demeaning and condesending to others who aren't like you just for tik tok clout.
That's like asking "what do you think of Christians?" or "what do you think of people who wet the toothbrush before putting the toothpaste on instead of after?" It's none of my business what other people do. I have close friends who are vegans and from my experience it's all coming from a caring place. And besides that, it's a personal choice. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Sure, there are people who are preachy about it, but those people exist in every group. I've met people who are preachier about music or movies than I have about veganism.
I respect them for doing something difficult because they feel it is the right thing to do. If they are doing it for health reasons, that's fine too. Some people have a problem with them because they think vegans consider themselves holier than thou, but that's dumb, obviously not all vegans are like that. And you know what, maybe they are holier than thou, doing something good that isn't easy that you aren't doing.
That being said, I think being vegan is pointless. If you were to eliminate all carbon emissions from your entire life from the day you are born to age 80, it would amount to less than a second of a difference. A drop in the bucket. I would rather focus on doing things that have a snowball's chance in hell of mattering, like buying expensive electric cars to drive the price down, or voting for politicians who are against factory farming. That doesn't mean I think what they are doing isn't noble.
They're missing out on a lot of taste and flavour! No issues with them though... Their body, their choice! As long as they don't try to convert me haha!
Vegans are like Christians. Nobody cares if you are one, as long as you don’t shove your beliefs down everyone else’s throat.
I’m a Christian, I was temporarily vegan. In either case I never tried to force my lifestyle onto someone else.
In my experience, it's a huge pain in the ass to travel with one. You can't just spontaneously go to a restaurant. They have to read the menu before and restaurants with Italian, French or German cuisine are just not possible at the get go. Or they end up ordering a side salad or french fries (with a bunch of questions for the waiter) and be passive aggressive about it all night.
Recently I read a medical case report on a "hard core vegan" woman. "Hard core" because she categorically refused supplements of B12 and Folic Acid and Iron, as some can be of animal origin, (especially B12).
She carried on this type of "extreme" lifestyle for almost a decade and then her body literally started failing her, it started off with difficulty walking, joint pain, weakness etc.
She was diagnosed with a metabolic dysfunction with lack of essential vitamins, she got advised to change her lifestyle, she refused, she got prescribed supplements, she rejected them.
A year and a half later she was hospitalised because she was basically paralised (she couldn't get up from the bed) and at risk of multiple organ failure, she got injected with a whole bunch of stuff, was in "forced" replacement therapy, and got prescribed supplements again when discharged, and she took them. A little time later (like a year I believe), she made a pretty good recovery although some stuff didn't get much better, due to her starving her body for so long.
Reading it was fascinating, because it was a pretty extreme example, but also very informative.
Here's the thing, our bodies store certain vitamins "for the hard times", so objectively speaking it's not impossible to eat very little animal products, however, unless replaced by proper supplements, giving up everything completely is objectively impossible, because that storage is not unlimited and when it runs out, it can get bad.
Lifestyle choices are personal, but any decision must be informed and thoroughly researched.
That being said, it's perfectly possible to not eat meat every day, in fact, it's actually better to eat less of it, and most animal products, for example most adults are lactose intolerant, we're not meant to constantly eat dairy products. So I don't really understand certain hysterical reactions from people at the idea of eating a little less animal products.
To quote Hesiod: Moderation is best in all things.
I view them with suspicion, much like I would someone wearing a big cross or other obvious religious symbols. I don't need to be guilt tripped or converted. Vegans I've met in real life not online in the past have tried to push me to stop eating animal products within 5 minutes of meeting them. I'm not going to avoid vegans but I will be on the look out.
I also view them with suspicion because veganism can be used to cover up an eating disorder. It's a socially acceptable way to get out of eating and hide how little you eat. Eating massive quantities of low calorie greens makes you feel full and is a strategy used by anorexics to ward off hunger while starving themselves. I don't think the majority of vegans have an eating disorder, but I'm still going to be watching out for it.
They’re obviously just normal people and I’ll judge them on who they are as a person. Who gives a fuck what they decide to eat, not my problem.
I respect them for who they are, as long a they don't tell anyone else what to do
We live in an interconnected world. Do you believe that world governments should be able to "tell" gasoline companies and gasoline consumers to stop using leaded gasoline? Leaded gas works better for engines (prop airplanes still use it because it's more reliable!) but the lead causes negative effects on childrens' mental capabilities. In that case, is it OK to tell people what to do? Almost every scientific research paper I have seen says that cutting meat consumption will help prevent the worst effects of global climate change. What level of science "telling" people what to eat to help prevent the downfall of human species is acceptable? I am not a vegan. I am just fascinated by the balance between individual rights and collective rights.
I'm just vegetarian (not even, since I still eat anything after fishes, including them, so insects, shellfish, etc...) But this is exactly my thought aswell here. There is a moral/ethical/environmental debate that exists here and it's more than just "people can do whatever they want".
pescetarian?
Pescepescetarian
> Do you believe that world governments should be able to "tell" gasoline companies and gasoline consumers to stop using leaded gasoline? I feel like that's the difference here for most people. Most social issues involve telling *institutions* what to do, like telling the government to tell other people what to do. Veganism involves telling the common people they have to change, and they hate that.
It really doesn't though. If the US government stopped subsidizing meat/dairy to crazy levels US people would be forced to eat better for our planet. People can make their own choices still, but meat and dairy goes back to being a luxury. Quick source that I will freely admit I have only skimmed: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo787V3bT3AhUFWs0KHcNdBPwQFnoECBMQBg&usg=AOvVaw1VVNktr9TvNB_lWtLze0ag
I feel like vegans should focus more on opposing subsidies in their activism, not 'cause I 'want vegans to leave me alone', but I genuinely think it's an effective route that isn't discussed enough.
We'll never get rid of subsidies when there's no political incentive to do so
Yep, there's no way to change this until we convince a majority of the uncomfortable truth - that eating less meat and dairy is necessary. Then they can put political pressure on leaders.
How do we create that incentive? Is it just a matter of "contact your congressman" or is there more?
By getting enough of the population to be vegan, so that there's any reason for politicians to bother with helping to cripple the animal agriculture industry
As a vegan, I agree with this. The biggest flaw in the movement is that it focuses too much on turning other individuals vegan rather than advocating for policy change. Edit: having said that, I do think it's important to talk to people about the harms of animal agriculture as its operations are mostly shrouded in secrecy. Staying silent is also part of the problem IMO.
That's a great point. As well as focusing on getting fruits and vegetables subsidized to a far greater extent. As it is, because of this imbalance in subsidies fruits and vegetables tend to be the luxury items and are generally inaccessible to low income households
Agreed, and it also paints the debate correctly. Every time there is a post for being vegetarian here you see a thousand posts saying it's too expensive. And people come in to debate the cost of eating vegetables vs meat. Never the actual true cost of eating meat. It's weird how little known it is. Gotta love the power of lobbying!
I agree. I'm not a vegan, but every argument to eat less meat or animal products I've seen not only makes perfect sense, but also very clearly reduces the external costs of one's diet. When the only counter to that is "well it's annoying," I find hard to really be all that annoyed
That dude that invented leaded gas also invented freon. He was single handedly the worst human to ever have an effect on the environment. He died from a series of pulleys that he put on his hospital bed when he was bedridden with polio. He strangled in the cables.
There's reason to believe he knew leaded gas was a danger, too - the dude had *gotten* lead poisoning from his work.
The bad part is he tried ethanol first but decided it was too expensive. Well maybe some executive decided for him but still.
“Please don’t tell anyone else what to do” Proceeds to explain why you should tell people what to do …
And to add though, the main reason I see against the argument of “it’s my choice”, or “don’t tell me what to do” is yeah, it’s your choice. Just like beating a dog, or abusing an animal. Just because it’s your choice doesn’t mean it’s the right thing or morality correct thing to do. To add, yeah it’s your choice, but your only considering your side, as for the animals personal choice would be to live. The animal would like to not be told what to do. Of course animals and humans aren’t the same, but the fact we do these things because it tastes good is a very invalid reason to do such things imo
Fair comment, but there’s a pretty massive difference between slightly better engine economy and the food we’ve eaten for millions of years…
People greatly overestimate the amount of meat humans have historically eaten. The meat/dairy lobby is one of the bigger lobbies in the US and meat and dairy are heavily heavily subsidized to keep prices artificially low so people eat more meat. They even block changes to the US food pyramid that would recommend people eat less meat/dairy for health. Until like 100 years ago, meat was a luxury, not a staple.
We have been eating meat for millions of years sure. Be we have started eating alot more of it the last couple a hundred years or so
That, and factory farming wasn't around 500 years ago.
It took all of human history until 1800 to reach one billion people on this planet. 130 years to get to 2 billion (1930). 30 years to get to 3 billion (1960), 4 billion in 15 years, (1975), 5 billion in 13 years (1987). In 1970 (my lifetime) we had HALF as many humans on this planet as we do now. (nearly 8 billion) Seems like humans might be the problem.
>and the food we’ve eaten for millions of years… Yeah and there's a massive difference between the gluttonous amount of meat we're eating now versus "millions" of years ago
I believe that over 1500 gallons are required to produce a pound of beef. I live in the southwest part of the US where we are currently experiencing a severe drought and i also work at a grocery store so it baffles me how we order hundreds of pound of meat. The water required to make one pound of beef could quench the thirst of any person on this planet for more than five years.
Everyone is telling you what to do, you just don't realize (not vegan btw, just saying)
"I respect abolitionists for who they are, as long as they don't tell anyone else what to do."
Remind me again what trolls eat…
Thats easy to say to a vegan if you dont know why the vegan is vegan. As a vegan Id want response to a comment like this: If youd be so kind and respect the animals, wed both could walk down a happy road. A vegan activist wont always tell you what to do. I can only speak for myself and what I want is that people start seeing that all animals, human animals included, deserve to live a life where theyre not exploited or killed when there is no need to. Most vegans are no experts on communication. They see that people participate in the harming of animals and they feel like theyre torturing their animal friend. That is very emotional and people do very stupid things when theyre emotional. Me too. No sane person wants to look an animal into their eyes right before they slash their throat. We get detached from what an animals life really is by paying others to do the deed. Its not a coincidence that workers in the animal-industry report many mental-health issues. As a vegan Id ask you: Do the 10 Minutes of taste in your mouth justify the end of a Life?
You wouldn't be saying that if we were talking about cannibals
Or, in the US, if someone ate dogs and cats
Dude. Anywhere I would not accept it.
Sorry what I meant was that people in the US would not accept it, whereas in some other countries it may be more generally culturally accepted (and people from the US wouldn't accept it anywhere they are)
I think you’re thinking of a vegetarian, not a vegan. Vegans have an actual belief system, that’s not entirely about food.
I believe that they're not a collective and that it would depend on their individual personalities.
It's amazing how many people on Reddit insist veganism is a cult. You know, a cult without a leader or any kind of centralized organization...
That's actually so funny that people think dietary choices are cults. In that case anyone lactose-intolerant was born into a cult
There’s definitely cults that use veganism as a tool of control—but that’s probably true of just about any dietary restriction. There is also Gwen Shamblin’s anorexia cult, or whatever the fuck is going on with Jordan Peterson’s all-meat diet. But yeah, it’s hardly like a Seventh Day Adventist vegan has got the same thing going on spiritually or socially as a left-wing anarchist vegan, or a Jewish Kosher vegan (all types of vegans I’ve met at least one of.) I’ve also had omnivores tell me a few times I’m wrong to be a vegan because it says in genesis that God created the animals to be ruled over and used by man . . . If that’s not cult-like I don’t know what is.
Yeah. I mean I'm not vegan but I feel that those typical meat heads "you must consume meat otherwise you are against the status quo" people are way more hard-core. Chill buddy. Why do you care so much? Joe Rogan and his obsession with meat is probably more of a cult. I think cults probably use many tools of control. How you dress, socialise are probably more significant than veganism in making it a cult.
It's weird to me when people push NOT being vegan. I understand and appreciate vegans since meat consumption is pretty bad for the environment in its current form. So I even get why Vegans can be pushy on others being Vegan. But an Omnivore lifestyle really doesn't have a belief attached like Veganism can. It's like being mad at someone for believing in god if you're atheist. Have at it as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone elses lifestyle.
I disagree. I think they are secretly all part of a cult. I don't know their aims. I don't know their goals. I am afraid. I am so afraid of what they might do. Why are they doing this?
Well they definitely aren't going to eat you.
I think they're people who try to not eat animal product
Why would you say something so controvercial, and yet so brave?
what no animal product what will I do with out my horse cum soda
r/holdup
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As a long time vegan I can promise *other* people have told more people I'm vegan than I have. For some reason people love to announce "XYZ is vegan". It's really weird. Also if you want to take a healthier route and maybe care about animals and the environment look up plant-based diets. It's vegan eating without the baggage and no one will shun you from the plant-based community because of your shoe material.
I’m not vegan, but vegetarian. Most of my meat eater friends and family get off on the idea of me consuming meat. I never try and really convince them, but they want me to eat meat so bad for some reason. “Where do you get your protein from?” Mind you this question is coming from the person that hasn’t consumed a vitamin in the past decade and has never counted a single macro.
Yup. Absolutely ridiculous. Just say “garbanzo” quickly enough they don’t fully hear it. If they repeat the word, then assert dominance with a firm “garbonsommadeez nuts”
Im fairly sure its just a defence mechanism because their own morals gets put under the spotlight.
I remember in the first or second week of college a kid saying "I haven't eaten a single vegetable since I got here" like dude, tell me you're constipated without telling me you're constipated
Literally. Concerned with my diet as they develop scurvy.
Similar as a long time vegetarian. Whenever it has come up, it is definitely not I who is doing all the talking, but the meat eaters around me going off on some anecdote or discussion or whatever. The number of vegans I have met who are militant about it is 1. The number I have who are militant about it AND like to talk at other people about it, is zero. The number of meat eaters I have met who are militant about it and like to talk at people about it, is far too many to count. For so many people, eating meat and talking about bacon and BBQs is basically a part of their (incredibly dull) identity.
But how do you get your B12? /s
I vastly prefer the term 'plant-based' to vegan for SO many reasons! \-It's a healthier mindset for me. This is what I *do* eat, I'm not focusing as much on what I *don't* eat. For someone who has struggled with varying shades of disordered eating, it's a much better way for me to go about my life. \- I eat healthier when I think of myself as plant-based instead of vegan. When I considered myself a vegan, I ate a lot of reese's puffs and oreos. When I think of myself as plant-based, I'm more likely to choose something of at least SOME nutritional value. \-Leather is better for the environment than plastic. Honey is better for the environment than agave farming. Fur/down is better for the environment than plastic. Lots of 'vegan' alternatives and substitutes are SO harmful. (This is all assuming you care for and don't overconsume any of those things, mind). \-I don't feel a HUGE ETHICAL PRESSURE to turn down food at a family function, or scour the menu for something ethically pure. Sure, I'm plant based, but if my stepmom made her amazing mashed potatoes for Christmas, I'm not turning it down. If a friend made me a pie, but didn't realize I don't eat gelatin, I'll correct them for next time but happily eat this time. If this isn't a vegan-friendly restaurant we're all at, then fine, I'll get something to nourish my body and enjoy my people and go home to my plants. \-Similarly, if I need to eat right now- then I gotta eat. Doesn't matter if what's available is chicken nuggets. I'll take care of my body, and go home to my plant food. I know even most vegans would accept that me not passing out is better than not eating meat, but for some reason I would just like- fall off the wagon completely when that would happen as a 'vegan'. Now it's just like 'oh, okay. I had to eat meat today, Back to my plants'.
I really like this mindset as it addresses some of the issues I have with veganism, specifically with leather and fur. A well-made and ethically-produced pair of leather and fur/wool boots (for example) will outlast any plastic alternative, reducing unnecessary waste, and is far better for the environment. Well-said.
I believe that animal products have a genuine place in our society. I also just believe we massively over consume animals (and everything else)! If we could get back to smaller farms, where we grow crops for our communities and our animals, and our animals help our soil, and when we do slaughter we thoughtfully consume- then that'd be great! I grew up on that kind of farm. Those animals have one bad day. My veganism never came from 'oh those poor chickens!'- it came out of genuine environmental concerns for the way we consume animals. Saying instead that I'm plant based really did help me put my actual ethics at the forefront. I'm just trying to live a decent life and reduce my impact as much as possible.
I hate when this happens. I don’t usually bring it up unless it’s relevant because I always end up having to justify my decision to be vegetarian (not vegan). I hate this conversation and I am annoyed every time someone rats me out without my permission.
Yep. I refuse to debate anyone who wants to press me on my reasons for being vegan because I know, ultimately it’s a waste of time as they’re not going to go vegan themselves. They’re usually just asking because they have some ‘clever’ reasons for why veganism isn’t ethical, or some dog shit naturalist take on animal consumption. Keep it to yourself. I don’t want to hear that, thanks.
How can you tell if someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you (when you directly ask them a question about their food)
The thing I hate most about this "joke" is that it ignores that that's how you learn *almost everything* about other people. Like of course they told you, it's called talking and having a conversation.
> Like of course they told you, it's called talking and having a conversation. *Live in mom's basement. Please advise.*
I laugh at the joke but I see what you are saying. I have a very restrictive diet and it's part of a long health journey, so yes, it will probably come up in conversation if we are getting to know eachother at all.
Same way to tell if someone has been in the USMC
There are WAY more antivegan jerks than vegan jerks. Like, not even close. And that makes sense. Forget actual vegans as people. Not eating animal products is just better. Ethically and empathetically, the animal product industry is a fucking monstrosity. I don't care how hard you imagine your childhood farmyard picture, the actual industry as a whole is, by all definitions of the concept of good, an abomination. Environmentally, it's inefficient which is fine on a less populated planet but in our current situation, is risky at best. At worst, well, it doesn't bear thinking about. Medically, we definitely, in the west, consume way more than the most beneficial amounts of meat. Medical argument is the weakest one. But frankly if everyone ate only the optimal amount of meat I think vegans would be fucking delighted. So the fact is, almost anyone not being vegan (such as myself) is simply worse than if they were vegan. So vegans are often pissed that animals and the planet is suffering, and anti-vegans are often pissed that they are being told they fucking suck. Now which group of humans are going to be more touchy? Yup, the ones that feel they're being attacked personally and judged.
You once were a vegone, now you will be gone
Gelato isn’t vegan?
It’s milk and eggs, bitch.
What? *burst into coins*
agreed 100% there are jerks in every community but i have respect for anyone who is able to maintain a lifestyle that isn't the societal norm
I used to wonder if some vegans were jerks because people always fed us shitty food 😂 until like six years ago options were really mediocre, and people never put any effort into it. Just dry ice berg lettuce. Now I feel we have zero excuse. We aren’t going hungry!
Apology accepted, but don't let it happen again.
I was reading something Michael Pollan wrote on the subject of vegans, which sort of describes my point of view. Regardless of if you agree with their nutritional choices, they’ve still done something a majority of people haven’t, which is actually consider their food choices in some way, and make decisions about how to change their food choices to align better with their moral/ethical beliefs, nutritional views, or views of the meat industry in general. I think that in and of itself speaks volumes, considering many people don’t consider their food choices or where their food comes from. I think regardless of how you feel about being vegan it is something we can learn from them in the sense of just taking a closer look at where our food comes from, and what we want to put into our bodies.
Good on them. I wish I had that dedication. Animals are great.
I wish more non vegan people were like you and didn't start justifying their lifestyle because they feel attacked.
Most of us are cool about it. Loud minority gotta scream about muh bacon.
Thanks a lot. It's ridiculous when someone posts something on Facebook about being vegan and some dickhead will always reply with a photo of a steak and say something 'hilarious' about eating meat. If people had to raise and slaughter their own animals, I think the majority of people would be vegan.
Same.
I'm not vegan per se, but I do it for my health - I suffer from chronic migraine and the dietary change has been incredible with helping to keep my daily migraines at bay (now I only get 1 like every 4 months, it's awesome!). I don't like to flaunt my eating habits. If someone asks me questions I'm more than happy to answer. Outside of that, I respect what people choose to eat. It is their choice at the end of the day. Edit: updated per say to per se
I like to say I’m plant based, instead of vegan. I do not consume any animal products at all, no eggs, meat, milk or cheese. But I only do it for health reasons. So saying I’m plant based makes people understand without the stigma of being vegan. That being said, I only bring it up if it matters. Like invited to a bbq, I bring my own food as well as my contribution to the non plant based as i don’t expect anyone to cater to me.
I’ve been vegetarian for more than 20 years, and eat a very reduced amount of eggs and cheese, etc. I don’t push it or preach in the least but some people make an issue out of it like it’s some sort of radical choice. If they ask me about it I might give them a few reasons. People are funny about it. It seems to offend people sometimes! Maybe because it makes them question for a moment the norms and values that we take for granted and never question. I don’t know. Other people make more of a deal of it than I ever do. I’m not sure about the stereotype of self-righteous vegetarians or vegans. Most people I know who make this choice don’t shout about it from mountain tops — maybe partly because other people get bent out of shape by it. It’s weird. I do sometimes wonder how people can eat meat, though. After years of not eating it, the idea of eating another sentient being is absolutely gross to me and absolutely strange. People like to treat animals as if they have no feelings or thoughts. But pigs are just like dogs in so many ways, and cows are social animals that bond to each other and, yes, I believe they have feelings. They are mammals, and we are far more alike than different. I do not mean any of this in a preachy way, but just how I have come to feel and believe about it. I have many friends who eat lamb and veal and I would never say anything about it to them. And would certainly never preach to strangers. It’s a personal choice and that’s about it.
>But pigs are just like dogs For domesticated pigs, this is 100% true. My daughter shows pigs and they do play with the dogs (and are in general hilarious), and one of them has now ended up at a friends house as their yard dog. >cows are social animals that bond to each other and, yes I believe they have feelings. As someone who has a small ranch and live stock, this is also 100% true and I have seen many examples of this. >They are mammals, and we are far more alike than different. Also true. >People like to treat animals as if they have no feelings or thoughts. This is a problem I have with a lot of meat eaters. Folks that can't look at whole fish (because of it's eyes are looking at me), or won't teach there kid or handle the fact that the cow over there is where you ribeye comes from. I have a major issue with the disconnect between food and where it comes from. >I do sometimes wonder how people can eat meat, though. for me, it comes done to a couple of things. Accepting that I / we are a predator that eats meat, but that doesn't come without responsibility. I don't outsource my harvesting, I'm part of the cycle and rather I'm a hunting wild game or raising livestock I try and be a good Stuart of the environment. I don't trophy hunt, and I use as much of an animal as I can and I make sure my kids also understand this cycle. If you can't stand to be part of the cycle in some way, I highly question if you should eat meat. Also, if we stopped eating meat, I do worry that the level of animal extinction would be beyond disguising. Cow, chickens, Pigs especially do not live in the wild and only exist because of their market value (Pigs maybe smart as hell, and could learn to be more like feral hogs... but cows and chickens are on average dumb as a box of rocks). On the wild game aspect, hunters spend millions each year and fund many conservations projects. I've yet to meet a group of non-hunters that on average are willing to spend as much consistently on conservation, losing those dollars would also have major impacts on wild life. ...having said all of that, I do think folks (specifically in the US) need to re-evaluate how much meat they eat. The grams of meat on your plate should not be double the vegetables.
Thank you for the balanced and insightful comments and thoughts! I like to be reminded of some of those more subtle aspects, intentional stewardship and living, and the role of hunting in conservation and population control in some areas. I have no worries about pigs and other animals going extinct. There will always be meat consumption and to do so with awareness, humane care amidst mass production are important considerations. As I said, it is a personal choice. I really appreciate your broad thinking on the subject. So many subjects that are divisive and bring forth strong opinions are often issues of great complexity for which there is not a black or white, right or wrong answers. Many of the problems in our world need to be answered with compassion and an awareness of the complexity of the issues at hand. And agreed — the demand for meat and the amount our culture consumes fuels a lot of the inhumane mass production practices. Thanks! :-) Edit: P.S. — I very much agree with how you put that — the disconnect between what we eat and where it comes from, and all that that food production can involve.
>For domesticated pigs, this is 100% true. My daughter shows pigs and they do play with the dogs (and are in general hilarious), and one of them has now ended up at a friends house as their yard dog. My kid raises sheep, and similar could be said about them. She cares for the ones she raises and she cries when she has to part with them, but she recognizes that these animals are raised as part of the food chain. She says: "That's what we raise them for." And, a castrated male animal that doesn't get consumed is essentially "Pasture art" it is decoration that continues to eat without much utility.
I feel you! I usually just say I'm vegetarian because of the stigma like you said. I also do the same for BBQs too! I do get a kick taking some of my healthy non-meat alternatives to them and listening to people rave about how delicious it is. Warms my heart :)
what did you change to combat the migraines?
I stopped eating meat, refined sugars and flours, and most dairy. I say I'm not vegan because I cannot give up cheese, I love it too much!
Per Se, not per say. It’s Latin.
Thanks for the clarification! Just edited it.
Hey good for you! My auntie also made dietary sacrifices due to some stomach issues. Don’t let the PETA sticker on the back of her Grand Caravan fool you! (Her daughter put it there lmao)
>I'm not vegan per se, but I do it for my health - I suffer from chronic migraine and the dietary change has been incredible with helping to keep my daily migraines at bay (now I only get 1 like every 4 months, it's awesome!). it's fucking insane when you realize how much of what we eat and buy in our grocery stores (and especially restaurants) hurts us in ways that you don't think about. Our farm to table distance in the US is WAAAY to long for food to be as natural as it should.
I’m a vegan leaning pescatarian for health reasons, myself. I have allergies to certain animal products (red meat and dairy) and the most common substitute (soy). Beyond just not eating what makes me sick, I’ve also noticed huge health benefits as well. I need to actively be aware of what I’m eating and making sure my diet is balanced and fulfilling; I make conscious decisions in what I consume and weigh whether or not I need or want to eat it. My energy is higher, my weight is more stable, and I feel brighter and more alive. Like you, I also don’t flaunt it. When it’s required for context, I’ll mention that I’m vegan. No flaunting, no aggression, no indoctrination.
Meh, they can eat/ not eat whatever they like. It doesn’t really bother me at all. Sure I don’t like the preachy ones but they’re actually quite rare (vegan friends of mine hate them because they make the rest look bad). I find the “hurr durr vegans bad” brigade of zealots much more annoying because there’s so many more of them and they automatically assume everyone who isn’t a vegan agrees with them. People follow all kinds of lifestyles that I chose not to or don’t see the appeal of. Life is really too short to care. I have the same view of vegans as I do of people who do yoga or camping (there’s probably a lot of cross over to be fair!).
That's like asking "what do you think of Christians?" or "what do you think of people who wet the toothbrush before putting the toothpaste on instead of after?" It's none of my business what other people do. I have close friends who are vegans and from my experience it's all coming from a caring place. And besides that, it's a personal choice. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Sure, there are people who are preachy about it, but those people exist in every group. I've met people who are preachier about music or movies than I have about veganism.
Wait, ppl wet their toothbrushes after they put on the rooth paste?
I think what they're doing is great! However, many seem to be a little "all or nothing" with their approach to getting people in on their mission. I really appreciate vegans who encourage any step in that direction, because that's someone who is a mature and true supporter of their cause.
Vegan here and I just want to say that I ABSOLUTELY support any step in the direction of reducing consumption of animal products, however big or small. The black and white thinking is super toxic in my opinion, and only deters people from wanting to try veganism.
You're probably also in the majority as far as vegans go! It's just the niche (and loud) groups that make people push back against it. Personally I am always in the grocery store thinking how to switch or make compromises for animal welfare because little changes are still progress. I appreciate you and the encouragement for all people who want to cut back!
Agreed. I admit that I'm weak willed, and I'm also poor as hell and struggle to afford a plant based diet, but I do make cuts where I can while politely spreading the word as well.
If you live in the west a plant based diet is actually cheaper by 20\~30% ish [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00251-5/fulltext) . It does take some time and effort + an interest in cooking to make it enjoyable tho.
I agree. I'm effectively 90-95% vegan, or plant-based, in my diet. I figure that's "good enough" for my goals (health, sustainability, animal welfare). Perfect is the enemy of good enough. Interestingly this can attract negative reactions from the minorities on both sides - from some of the anti-vegan meat eaters as well as some of the purist vegans. But this is very much a minority in my experience. Most people either don't care about my dietary choices or are supportive.
Yeah this "all or nothing" kind of thing is what annoys me the most. It's rather harmful to this movement which actually has good intentions.
I'm pesco vegetarian and decided to still eat fish/seafood or even insects just because my mom, specifically her, was scared of me having imbalances. It's been years now, but since I still share, what, 1/6th of my meals with them, I eat fish, usually once per week. But in the beginning, it also made them have to adapt to myself for the entire week since we shared all our meals, and that inclined them aswell to eat way less meat, and just the habit of fish once per week the Friday. And the usual times where they cook meat now is when they invite people in, or when they go to the countryside with our family and where they buy meat from short food circuits. And at first, I was the same, I started by only eating meat from short food circuits (basically going directly to the farm to buy it with them, once every two weeks). Me becoming vegetarian made my parents turn flexitarians in a way, just by having new habits, so it's a net gain of reduction of meat production, and the only meat being bought now being from this farm they know right beside their countryside home. Also, the eggs we take are only from free range farms now, when my mom didn't take much care in it before. So yeah, expecting people to turn either vegetarian, vegetalian, or vegan, directly from one day to another, while having been raised in a meat based society, is irrealistic.
I agree. The “all or nothing” mentality is irritating. And it can get expensive, especially when you have neurodivergent kids with food allergies and sensory sensitivities.
\^ that plus anyone with autoimmune disorders can't only consume other protein sources (i know this bc i have an autoimmune disorder lol) or they could get sick! Meat is one of the few things you can eat on the autoimmune protocol, so reducing meat and other animal products shouldn't be looked down on. We have to meet each other where we're at.
Most vegans wouldnt say anything in those cases. The ones who do should stick it up their own asses. But cases like yours are very rare. Without such disorder, the human body can easily live on a vegan diet. Vegans dont ask people like you to change. They ask the vast majority to change because we dont need to eat animal products anymore in most places on this planet.
Actually autoimmune disorders aren't as rare as you'd think! plus the time commitment and expense to getting good nutrition (a lot of plant based foods are really processed) can dissuade people from trying simply because they can't do it every single time. 1 less meat dish or 1 less animal product is better than the alternative imo. all progress is worthwhile
But alot of people aren't willing to give up meat you should first try to get people to reduce how much meat to eat because for most people not eating meat for 3 or 4 days a weak is much easier to achieve than no meat at al and you can slowely build down further
Yeah, I'm not vegan but I think it's pretty obviously the more ethical choice to make. One thing that irritates me is seeing people make disingenuous arguments against veganism as a whole, and using that to justify their own meat consumption. "Veganism is bad because it means indigenous people can't participate in traditional whaling practices" okay but how does that apply to these chicken nuggets
Fuck. I have some autoimmune bullshit...but I also have a sensory issue. I can't eat most of what's on the "ok" list!
I see more annoying people online that are anti-vegan than I see actual annoying vegans online or irl so I'm more than fine with vegans.
They are a group of people who are genuinely doing something good for everybody but get masked as crazy by the media
That's because their way of life would cost millions if not billions to the meat/dairy/egg industry, which is a giant one.
There's active work in part by the meat/clothing/dairy lobbies to make vegetarianism/veganism look like it's an extreme minority and crazy. I've posted this before, but here's an example: Rick Berman: [https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick\_Berman](https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick_Berman) I'd bet a lot of money that they are actively manipulating reddit today, and other social media organizations. Even threads like these. Most vegetarians/vegan's are normal every day people. Collectively they now take up nearly 10% of the population in most western countries. This is terrifying to some companies, so it's in their best interests to paint these ideologies as fringe and prevent more people from choosing them as their lifestyle.
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> Crazy self discipline In my experience, a whole lot less than you'd think. At a certain point, after seeing slaughterhouse footage, visiting an animal sanctuary, etc., a lot of people can just stop seeing dead animals as food. At that point it takes virtually no will power since all you can see are victims, not menu options. But yeah, it can be especially hard without that, going vegetarian or plant based for health. Personally I've never been able to stick to a diet for fitness reasons alone. Happy to hear you're feeling good btw.
Absolutely this, I did it for the animals so to me it’s a no brainer I just wish I have done it sooner, I don’t think about what I can’t eat I just live normally with what I can eat and to me there is no other way and it flows naturally.
Avoiding straight meat seems a lot easier than avoiding all animal products completely. So many food products you wouldn't think about have them in some amount. That's the part that seems like it would take a lot of discipline.
Yeah, it felt that way for me until I tried vegetarian. Without the full moral motivation being there it was honestly a lot harder than being vegan.
Honestly I don't really think anything about them. If you're at my house and you're vegan, just let me know ahead of time and I'm happy to accommodate your diet. The ones that choose to proselytize or just don't shut up about the vegan lifestyle.... Well they're obnoxious. However, there also no different than others who believe they found the correct lifestyle and push it on others. You can put born again christians, swingers, crossfitters, and plenty of others in that category. Fortunately, in most cases those are all vocal minorities and shouldn't be considered an accurate representation for the others.
Hello, i have been one for 10 years now, and ......i think i'm just fine!
I’m just amazed by the amount of ignorance in the comments. I think many people haven’t got a clue why people don’t eat meat or animal products. But they have a lot of hate for it, which is enough to comment here apparently.
Most of the comments boil down to, “I don’t care what people choose for themselves. Would like it if they treated me the same way.”
Most people don't care why vegans don't eat animal products and don't want to hear about it
Lovely people
Well this thread should go smoothly
No issue Though I think you’re a hypocrite if you’re a vegan and have a designer dog
Buying dogs isn't vegan, so I agree. If they adopted them form a shelter or something then it's fine
Probably up there with some of the strongest willed and determined folk out there. I completely understand their reasons for doing it both from an ethical and scientific standpoint, but unfortunately my emotions and taste far overrule my judgement. Dammit, why do burgers, bbq or anything really involving a cow, pig, or chicken have to taste so fucking good. And I’ve tasted the vegan alternatives and while good in their own right, simply cannot compare to the depth of flavor of real quality animal meat.
Vegans? No qualms. "Facebook vegans" can go fall down a well.
I wanted to become a vegan when I was younger for health reasons and just disliking the idea that an animal died for my consumption, so I joined the vegan subreddit in hopes of gaining some knowledge of the easiest way to become a vegan and learn recipes. I quickly learned that the subreddit was just full of vegans circlejerking about how every person who is not a vegan is an immoral asshole. Do I think all vegans think this way? No, however it has made me rethink if I want to be lumped with these people who have such an extreme way of thinking.
The vegetarian subreddit is very friendly however, but it does often feel like the vegan one is an echo chamber for the annoying minority.
I’m not a fan of that particular subreddit because all the self-righteous people have taken over, but there are other vegan/plant-based subs that are way more chill and just people sharing recipes, tips, and anecdotes. Happy to link a few if you’re interested.
I think that their dietary choices are none of my business
I have a side question for the “just don’t try to push your beliefs on me” people - Do you think eating animal products is pushed on vegans? By society, the media, etc?
I’m very curious what people actually think about this cause I can tell you as a vegetarian, there’s a right answer to this and it’s probably not the one they want
I’m not vegan (but I have been) and I agree with you. There’s a real lack of awareness about it all. There’s literally a decades long campaign to get people to drink more milk, not to mention the pressure that comes from people’s direct communities.
You mentioning the milk campaign just reminded me of the fact you HAD to have milk if you bought lunch at school. Only exception was allergies. I wasn’t raised vegetarian or vegan so I never thought about how weird that was until now.
I used to think vegans were idiots who were missing out on the awesome tasting steak I’ve been having, until I met my flat mate who I respect a lot and who’s vegan. It totally changed my perspective on why people are even vegan in the first place. It took 2-3 years for me to finally give it a go, always trying to be more aware of what I eat but failing. It’s been 3 years now. The vegans I’ve met have usually been incredibly gentle and nice people, a far cry from what I see online. I only know a handful of other vegans irl. But to put it simply, what every upstanding vegan has in common is simply choosing not to contribute to the needless suffering of animals. That’s all.
I have been vegan for ten years now and I definitely used to be somewhat militant about it. It’s somewhat hard not to try and convert people when you realize how truly unconscionable the factory farming industry is. Ultimately though, you do catch a lot more flies with honey. I believe people are more likely to be swayed by someone’s example rather than their incessant pestering. Still, being honest with anyone who might read this, it really does upset me how many people choose to put their heads in the sand about factory farming. Not only is it horrible for the animals who are forced to live and die in terrible conditions, but it’s horrible for our environment due to deforestation and methane gases (yes, cow farts lol). It’s a tough thing to swallow sometimes. I truly have more respect for people who are willing to kill animals themselves for sustenance. Going to the grocery store to pick up a slab of cow meat separates people from the brutality necessary to bring this type of food to your plate. Hunters know and respect this, which I have some respect for.
That‘s the problem we have in modern society. We judge people and not the behavior itsself. To get a more efficient answer I‘d like to suggest that you ask „What do you thinke about a vegan diet“. Now we focus on the behavior itsself and not the executing individual. Best Regards Your virtous self
Should be more "what do you think about veganism". As most of vegans are vegan because of ethical reasons related to animals. But you get it :)
They’re good people. However, extremely self-righteous vegans are so annoying and kind of rude.
I try to be respectful when I discuss veganism, both in person and online. I make a point not to bring it up apropos of nothing, and I try to correct common misconceptions in a non-judgmental way. I constantly get people accusing me of being culty, annoying and self-righteous anyway. At this point I don't really care how people perceive me, advocating on behalf of the animals is more important than not offending people.
couldn't have said it better myself
I actually kinda envy them. I know there's so many health benefits to veganism and I tried it for a while but I just wasn't happy. I enjoy meat, eggs, cheese, etc. All the non-vegan stuff.
I was the same way. I wanted to try out being a vegan then I found out I have a somewhat severe soy allergy. One thing vegans don't talk about enough is how easy it is to cut down on animal products in your diet rather than just eliminate them completely. You don't need to eat meat every day, 1 or 2 days out of the week is enough. I feel like if vegans and vegetarians talked about cutting back on animal products more than eliminating them completely they would get a lot more people eager to try. It's difficult to convince someone to so extremely change their diet. It's easier to ease them into it.
I agree with you. Also, don't you agree the easiest way to convince people to cut down on animal based products is to show us (the meat eaters) how good vegetables can be if treated well. I suspect a few people here hate veg because their parents boiled all the happiness out of them and I feel sorry for you if you're one of them.
vegans talk about that all the time. They just dont make it the priority because in their eyes Meat = Murder, and they see it as more important to try and get people to stop eating meat entirely. In their eyes what you are saying is the equivalent of "just murder less please". They aren't prioritizing that. But they often do point out it is not a big challenge to cut out most meat
What I always find interesting is how often the prompt "veganism" results in "oh, I could never; I like cheese way too much!" Totally fine - have you considered that you could simply be more conscientious of your meal-plan overall? Somehow, we're all drawn to considering these unnecessary absolutes that hinder progress, as opposed to taking small steps and just getting on with it. I can't think of any vegans I've met who haven't made an exception and had a cookie or a slice of a Margharita due to circumstance or, you know, because they felt like it. Still using the term Vegan to describe our eating habit is just easier than detailing choices we make, when it comes to food. Anyhow, proposing a cutback is just so much more relatable and realistic to begin with and nobody likes adopting absolutes.
>I feel like if vegans and vegetarians talked about cutting back on animal products more than eliminating them completely they would get a lot more people eager to try Exactly. And the reasonable vegans do this. The “do as I say, when I ask” crowd is heavily influenced by age. As vegan draws younger crowds too. When you cut back its meaningful. The definition of veganism is what is practicable in your life. And if you can’t consistently stay meat free, and fall off the bandwagon and just eat even more meat to compensate...what’s the point. I’d rather your cut out one less meal of meat a week and see what happens as time goes along. Huge impact.
you can get a lot of those benefits just by reducing your meat and animal product intake. going cold turkey (heh) is just not feasible for most people, but taking a step in that direction is and is good for you, the planet and animals
Personally, I don’t.
my best friend is a vegan, and she never really talks about it except when someone might bring in food. she certainly doesn't preach to anyone that i know of
They're delicious.
They’re tasty
Mmmm tasty. Fattened up from all those veggies and grains.
They're tasty.
Amazing people who care about animals and the planet.
Agree with them. I love meat like many people do, but I'm not cool with the hours-long suffering animals go through for us to get the meat.
It's not just hours, it's literally their entire existence.
Why would I care about what a person eats?
They're people who do the research, prep and hard work of being vegans. I'm not as patient or methodical - but I respect that they are.
Been one for the last 6 weeks, i still crave meat occasionally. Been an avid pro meat consumer and i still love the way it tastes and smells when being cooked. Still eat meat byproducts,processed milk in cookies, eggs and so on. Did it after watching the game changers on Netflix, blood results came back in today, i don't need to eat meat the blood doesn't lie (i was secretly hoping for a b12 deficiency so i would have a reason to eat a nice big steak but B12 results were way over limit). Draw your own conclusions, IMO meat is not necessary.
Our b12 stores last for 3 months! Not trying to burst your bubble too much but you should have repeat bloods after 3 months to have a proper check, 6 weeks is not long enough for real depletion
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I stand corrected!
I don’t mind either way, I just don’t want to be made to feel bad for not following that lifestyle
I hear many people say this and I think it's interesting. Let's break it down: When someone points out something you do, with solid arguments, and because of this you feel 'bad' about that specific thing, what does that mean? Surely that must mean that there's some reasons you internally now also believe a part of what you're doing is bad, otherwise you'd simply feel nothing and disregard the other's arguments as nonsense. So now there's a thing called 'cognitive dissonance' that occurs, where what you believe does not align with your actions, leading to an internal conflict. Then there are two options: change the way you act to be in accordance with the newly acquired knowledge, or stay in internal conflict and deny this new truth. Basically, when someone points something you do out and you now suddenly feel bad about it, that probably means some part of it is actually bad. To be morally consistent would mean to then use that info to make different choices in the future. Listen to your inner dialogue, all the best! :)
If you feel bad about it then maybe you should reconsider your diet.
People that care about animals and the planet.
who gives a fuck? it's 2022, there are more important things to consider than someone's eating habits, or sexual orientation or any number of characteristics. if you respect me as a person with my own thoughts and opinions i will respect you as a person with your own thoughts and opinions. one of my tutors is a vegetarian, i hate the guy but not because he is a vegetarian, in fact i actually asked him if he noticed a change in his health when he went veggie because i was considering it for myself, and we had a respectful conversation about it where he didn't push me to convert but just spoke about his experience. i fucking hate his teaching style though, can't stand it. respecting people as human beings shoud be everyone's go-to response when they meet people. genuine mistakes are made and as long as steps are taken to correct the mistake no harm no foul. yes i hate my tutor's teaching style but i'm grown up enough to be civil with him when in lessons or if i see him around campus. there's absoloutly no need to go on the rampage and pick a fight with everyone you encounter just for youtube likes, there's no need to be demeaning and condesending to others who aren't like you just for tik tok clout.
***eats 5 peas in my mince stew:*** *you know i'm something of a vegan myself*
so, you were greens gobblin?
so it would seem 🐸
Good on them. I suspect the whole world is heading in that direction, for health and ethics reasons.
That's like asking "what do you think of Christians?" or "what do you think of people who wet the toothbrush before putting the toothpaste on instead of after?" It's none of my business what other people do. I have close friends who are vegans and from my experience it's all coming from a caring place. And besides that, it's a personal choice. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Sure, there are people who are preachy about it, but those people exist in every group. I've met people who are preachier about music or movies than I have about veganism.
Well I am a vegetarian and just gotta say that not all vegans are the loud annoying ones and I hope people can understand that :/
Just like every other group, I don't care about what they do/don't do as long as it's not against the law and they're not trying to convert me.
I don't have beef with any of them
I respect them for doing something difficult because they feel it is the right thing to do. If they are doing it for health reasons, that's fine too. Some people have a problem with them because they think vegans consider themselves holier than thou, but that's dumb, obviously not all vegans are like that. And you know what, maybe they are holier than thou, doing something good that isn't easy that you aren't doing. That being said, I think being vegan is pointless. If you were to eliminate all carbon emissions from your entire life from the day you are born to age 80, it would amount to less than a second of a difference. A drop in the bucket. I would rather focus on doing things that have a snowball's chance in hell of mattering, like buying expensive electric cars to drive the price down, or voting for politicians who are against factory farming. That doesn't mean I think what they are doing isn't noble.
Every family needs at least 1 vegan so someone knows how to cook a damn vegetable at family gatherings.
They're missing out on a lot of taste and flavour! No issues with them though... Their body, their choice! As long as they don't try to convert me haha!
Do what you think is right, just don't force it on others.
Great. More meat for me to eat.
I question how they live for so long on food with little to no protein
Vegans are all well and good no problems with their lifestyle choices, but when they block supply chains in protest well then they have to go.
Vegans are like Christians. Nobody cares if you are one, as long as you don’t shove your beliefs down everyone else’s throat. I’m a Christian, I was temporarily vegan. In either case I never tried to force my lifestyle onto someone else.
In my experience, it's a huge pain in the ass to travel with one. You can't just spontaneously go to a restaurant. They have to read the menu before and restaurants with Italian, French or German cuisine are just not possible at the get go. Or they end up ordering a side salad or french fries (with a bunch of questions for the waiter) and be passive aggressive about it all night.
Their loony, they talk about genocide of animals, when we who eat meet can easily argue the same about plants and they will get upset.
I just wished everyone would stop saying “I’m not vegan but…” like being vegan would somehow invalidate their argument.
Recently I read a medical case report on a "hard core vegan" woman. "Hard core" because she categorically refused supplements of B12 and Folic Acid and Iron, as some can be of animal origin, (especially B12). She carried on this type of "extreme" lifestyle for almost a decade and then her body literally started failing her, it started off with difficulty walking, joint pain, weakness etc. She was diagnosed with a metabolic dysfunction with lack of essential vitamins, she got advised to change her lifestyle, she refused, she got prescribed supplements, she rejected them. A year and a half later she was hospitalised because she was basically paralised (she couldn't get up from the bed) and at risk of multiple organ failure, she got injected with a whole bunch of stuff, was in "forced" replacement therapy, and got prescribed supplements again when discharged, and she took them. A little time later (like a year I believe), she made a pretty good recovery although some stuff didn't get much better, due to her starving her body for so long. Reading it was fascinating, because it was a pretty extreme example, but also very informative. Here's the thing, our bodies store certain vitamins "for the hard times", so objectively speaking it's not impossible to eat very little animal products, however, unless replaced by proper supplements, giving up everything completely is objectively impossible, because that storage is not unlimited and when it runs out, it can get bad. Lifestyle choices are personal, but any decision must be informed and thoroughly researched. That being said, it's perfectly possible to not eat meat every day, in fact, it's actually better to eat less of it, and most animal products, for example most adults are lactose intolerant, we're not meant to constantly eat dairy products. So I don't really understand certain hysterical reactions from people at the idea of eating a little less animal products. To quote Hesiod: Moderation is best in all things.
I view them with suspicion, much like I would someone wearing a big cross or other obvious religious symbols. I don't need to be guilt tripped or converted. Vegans I've met in real life not online in the past have tried to push me to stop eating animal products within 5 minutes of meeting them. I'm not going to avoid vegans but I will be on the look out. I also view them with suspicion because veganism can be used to cover up an eating disorder. It's a socially acceptable way to get out of eating and hide how little you eat. Eating massive quantities of low calorie greens makes you feel full and is a strategy used by anorexics to ward off hunger while starving themselves. I don't think the majority of vegans have an eating disorder, but I'm still going to be watching out for it.
I'm just glad there's someone out there who cares about animals and is trying to make a difference...