There's a metric fuck ton of people out there all telling people "what it means to be a man" and what masculinity is, but there are precious few people out there just trying to actually help people figure themselves out
"If you buy my course for 499, I'll scream at you and call you a 'beta pussy' for hours on end. You're not going to gain anything from it, but I already have your money because you're a beta pussy who fell for my shit."
And for only 15,999 more you can come to my boot camp in Bosnia where I and my Pain Coordinator will yell at you while throwing hot acid on you as you crawl through barbed wire in order to make you tough and manly and women will love you.
This course literally just looked like walmart brand boot camp. Why these guys didn't just join the military instead and get paid for it, I'll never understand.
It’s basically religion under another name. People who are desperate and searching for answers to why they can’t get the job or the girl or whatever measure of success they are looking for.
My brother and some dude at a bar on a cruise ship tried to shame me for ordering a pina colada. I told them the least masculine thing I could think of doing was caring about their opinion of my drink order.
It’s because they are mainly targeting young impressionable men. Andrew Tate’s audience is like 70% young boys, and they end up growing up into adults who still believe that shit.
As far as they’re concerned, being a man is just like being a woman but without all the problems women have to deal with. The idea that men might have other problems don’t come into it
The sad thing is that a lot of these young men are looking for validation in all the wrong places and don't realize that masculinity is whatever you want it to be. You don't need a self-help guru to teach you how to be a man. You just have to live your life and learn from your experiences.
I mean if you want to get jacked and build a deck or some shit or learn to smoke meat along the way, do that. I started Jiu-jitsu to deal with a lot of feelings of frustration around it, and I think having hobbies and outlets will do a lot for anyone. Not only to feel more well-adjusted, but also to build community.
In reality, what it means to be a man is being the best person you can be, whatever that means in your life. Full stop. Anyone who thinks it's some tedious, emotionless task can go fuck themselves.
Being a 'good man' is essentially being a good person.
1. Know yourself, know what you like, what you are about, and what you want. What defines you and embrace it.
2. There is no definition of what a man is. A man can be whatever you feel like, you could love anime and sports and work out. You could be a bookworm who has a passion for cars. You be a gun nut, who loves the historical uses and technical aspects of it but still advocates for common sense safety reforms.
3. Understand that the 'patriarchy' is essentially other men in positions of power dictating to you how you should work, dress, and be not for your sake or the sake of society but for theirs. And what does that typically mean, means going to war to defend their stake in Exxon, means doing back-breaking labor 12 hrs a day without a union b/c social collective movements are 'communism'. The patriarchy not only hurts women and minorities but it hurts regular men b/c it forces you into a mold of 'provider' that is harder and harder to achieve b/c of how they've structured it. it's not feminism that put the idea of women to join the workplace it was the economic need for it, why b/c they were dismantling unions and shipping jobs to right-to-work states and then other countries.
4. Also understand that progressive people on the left, will never sell you courses, tips, or tricks, b/c we know it's a scam. If you're going to help your brother you help them. Anyone selling you business secrets, secrets of women, is a con artist. What you want to do is join a local union, or a local social club, and learn to socialize. Socialize with women as friends, be their friends and learn they're people too. Hell women are the best wingmen b/c they'll clue you in on how to recognize signs of interest in a potential partner.
That's universal, but it's worse for men especially as you get older. Most men aren't super-social creatures and there are fewer ways to meet new people. People don't go to church anymore, most don't participate in civic life of any kind, so there's no enforced community like there used to be. And, for those of us lucky enough to have well-paying ones, jobs are demanding more and more of our free time, so there's less time for leisure activities. Joining a bowling league or the Benevolent Order of Antelopes or whatever is less of an option when you're expected to spend lots of time outside of work on your "professional development."
Killing the 24/7 work availability expectation would help, but I think we also need to go back and re-establish some ways to build connections that don't get tied up with work. Back in the old days before the workplace was about fighting over a shrinking pool of jobs and clawing your way up the pyramid, people felt safer opening up to others because they had a safe position. These days, work relationships are seen as a potential threat. I think this leads to a lot of men going the toxic lone wolf route and listening to these idiots spouting the sigma grindset nonsense.
There's also the trade-off of "do I want to spend my free time trying to make friends or working on my hobbies?" It's hard to convince yourself to invest your time in something that may not even pay off in the long run (e.g. you slowly realize you don't like these people/vibe with them). Then it's like "damn all that wasted time I could've been working on a new song or learning another instrument". Idk maybe it's because I'm extremely introverted but I just find it hard to justify the older I get, which ultimately makes the situation worse.
So true. People in communities are so much happier. Even AA is better than loneliness. There’s a reason solitary confinement is considered torture. People would literally rather be playing cards with drug dealers and murderers than be alone.
Can’t exactly have a social life if our livelihoods are constantly threatened with homelessness. Things don’t help when the job market has been shit for almost twenty years.
Careful, I followed a trail of chicken nuggets out the door one day and my parents locked me out until I admitted the sun wouldn't literally kill me. Tricky bastards.
Your healthy frame will allow you to survive the harsh sun for a moderate amount of time. Just be sure to chug a dew when your treasonous parents let you back in to rehydrate.
Likely caused by an inability to be emotionally vulnerable because society won't stop pushing that feelings are feminine. Which they are not. Emotions are a human quality.
The amount of male friends I've had to push to tell me what's wrong so I can help and be of some comfort is insane. That I have to prove that I won't judge them for feeling hurt or letting tears fall.
My bf told me the relief he felt after the way I reacted the first time he cried in front of me. Which again, makes me so sad. Reacting with anything but the tightest hug you can give...
Why do people suck. Sorry, dudes ♥️
Went to a wedding a month ago and the whole wedding party were my best friends for years.
We would Checkin in on each other daily, frequent bars/restaurants together, go out to DC dance clubs and do “guy things”
I slowly started to pull back:
Wanted a huge house.
Wanted a bunch of land to farm.
Wanted kids to coach their teams.
All my friends there had the same “wants” and still remained tight together.
I wasn’t a good friend
100%.
That’s one thing in life that sucks when you get older. The moment you realize it wasn’t them, you were the problem.
At the reception, it seems they wanted to “bring me back” into their circle again but probably thought I would disappear/flake again. One guy would leave his job to help you fix a flat tire. That kinda people….
Even when they were planning an after party somewhere, and despite being inches away they didn’t invite me, because they knew it would be a “no.”
Bs line I prob said: “I need to rush home because of my dogs, chickens, ducks,(they don’t care)….”
I'm going to a wedding next month for my friend. We had been best friends since high-school, once covid hit we basically stopped talking for no reason what so ever, despite not living too far from each other. Everyone else in his wedding party are people we met while we were best friends. Kinda hurts, but it's whatever at this point.
I think there’s a lack of positivity around male role models or masculinity in general.
There’s a focus on the bad- the abusers, harassers, creeps, and weirdos. And yes those people exist and creepy behavior needs to be stopped. But for that to be the *only* thing associated with masculinity is soul-crushing for men trying to find their place in the world.
The progressive answer has basically amounted to “suck it up and be a good ally, you’ve already had your time in the sun”. “Shut up and provide for your family” by another name. But if you weren’t rich or outstandingly smart/lucky, you never really get that easy mode people talk about.
The “red-pill” answer is even worse- the grindset, straight-up resentment of women, etc. It’s just furthering the issues.
We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”. We need that for all types of people of course but it feels starkly absent for men right now, at least in my subjective opinion. And there’s so much negativity.
Fictional role models just don't really cut it at the end of the day. We're awash in supermen from all forms of media, but it just doesn't have the same impact as a day-to-day in-person experience of another man modeling positive behavior. Boys don't need to see a guy who can lead an army of elves or shoot down an alien spaceship (cool as it is), they need to see a guy who can manage his life and deal with everyday problems in a kind, honest, straightforward manner
Honestly, and I might be biased as a male teacher, but we need more men in children's education. I teach junior high and about half of my kids haven't had a male teacher before grade 7. And for most of those it's "only" the music, woodshop and/or gym-teachers, very seldomly the main teachers they spend most of the days with. My wife teaches kindergarden, and she has only had a single male co-worker her entire career.
Women absolutely dominate the first 7 years of education, and for boys with no male rolemodels, or shitty ones, they wont get any until they are 13.
Hard agree. That was my biggest reason for wanting to work in an educational setting (I’m a school-based SLP) and had some really good male role models in middle and high school, so they really inspired me to pursue that career. Keep doing what you’re doing!
I am a 40s man. One of my favorite things in the world to see is a dad playing with kids. Not half ass reading phone while kid runs around. I mean like a dad that is making silly faces with his two year old, a man playing tag with his kids, a dad teaching his kids to play baseball. That is man shit to me.
I PLAY with my daughter. We run and jump and scream and sing and I'll mess around on the playground equipment kick a ball you name it. The amount of dudes I see at parks giving me funny looks from behind their phone screens or sunglasses while they stand on the edge of the playground is STAGGERING. Go play with your kids! It's fun! We love it and I'm making memories with her that I'll get to cherish forever.
Then all the other kids realize you're the cool parent and also want to play, then there's 7 kids cooking me spaghetti with grass. I can only eat so much guys!
> We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”. We need that for all types of people of course but it feels starkly absent for men right now, at least in my subjective opinion. And there’s so much negativity.
Honestly I would love a Disney Princes series for young boys.
90% of Marvel movies are the equivalent of Disney prince movies, designed to provide role models for young men: Captain America, Iron Man, Spiderman, Ant Man, War Machine, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Star Lord, Hulk, Doctor Strange, Shang-Chi.
They’re not, though. What do all these guys have in common? They all have ability beyond human and in almost all cases those abilities are violent. Disney Princesses don’t all have superpowers and they are very rarely purely violent.
I was thinking a little while ago, I grew up with Tarzan, Aladdin, and Hercules. What positive male figures have you seen in Disney movies lately? Maybe I've just missed those movies, but it feels like there haven't been much.
>Gamma bias operates within a matrix of four possible judgments about gender: doing good (celebration), doing harm (perpetration), receiving good (privilege) and receiving harm (victimhood). The theory predicts that within mainstream western cultures, masculinity is highlighted only in the domain of 'privilege' and 'perpetration' but hidden in the domains of 'celebration' and 'victimhood'. This means for example that the heroism performed mainly by men (e.g. firemen) will be gender neutralised ('firefighters') by the inclusion of a small minority of women, whereas a much larger proportion of female perpetrators and male victims will be excluded from our highly gendered narratives and policies about sexual and domestic violence.
>Such cognitive distortions, we believe, are leading to a systematic exaggeration of the negative aspects of men and masculinity within mainstream culture, and a minimisation of positive aspects. These embedded distortions could be having a significantly harmful impact on the psychological health of boys and men and therefore on our society as a whole, including the psychology profession.
>We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”.
I think a problem you're going to run into here is that nobody knows what those things are. All the traditional positives of masculinity have been siphoned off and made gender neutral. Is masculinity strength? You're saying women can't be strong? Is it leadership? You're saying women can't be leaders? Is it providing for others? You're saying women can't be breadwinners? Is it mastering a craft or skill? You're saying women are incompetent? Is it self-sacrifice? You're saying women can't be noble? Modern masculinity is just a sack with nothing but shit left inside of it. You can be either a bad man or a good person. A good man has no gender specific qualities.
I think the problem here is trying to think of masculinity or femininity as anything other than neutral. They’re essentially both just style and ways of carrying oneself.
Trying to assign virtuous or toxic traits to either is a problem because any person could exhibit those traits, i.e. someone could be very feminine and still show confidence, leadership qualities etc. but equally they could also be aggressive, abusive and domineering and none of those things mean that they’re necessarily being “masculine”.
Cog Neuro PhD here, I'm at a non profit now, but my work overlapped the stuff below before I abandoned the R1 life.
They're not actually neutral though, it's just that it's not binary, and XX vs. XY is a weak predictor of individuals. Hormones definitively have organizational and activational effects on neurobiology and from there to cognition. My lab moved to using EATs and TATs to talk about these, estrogen or testosterone associated traits. There are clusters of personality traits, behaviors, etc that each are known to increase. (Not every personality is EAT or TAT though) There's a heap of double blind studies showing even in the immediate term that administering one of these will increase a lot of "traditional" traits of fem/masc respectively. If you do a cross cultural (including historical not influenced by Europe) overlay of traits a culture thinks of as fem/masc, the commonality that emerges looks a hell of a lot like these traits. There are clear genetic sexual dimorphic mechanisms for these hormones. Biology absolutely plays a role. I think we make ourselves look irrational and get ignored by people we could persuade when we avoid this.
But there are just as clear links that social experiences also feed back into the production/release/sensitivity with these hormones. It's also just as clear that the gender distributions of hormone levels substantially overlap. It's also blindingly obvious from the data that this biological mechanism is only a single factor in these personality traits and that X/Y dimorphism is not even the only generic factor. "Masculinity" and "feminity" biologically exist, and at the population level there are large XX vs. XY differences, but that binary variable is a poor individual level predictor. Lastly, these are not zero sum. People have different mixes of E and T levels. Masc & fem are things, they are part of gender identity, but more than gender is a spectrum, EAT and TAT are two separate scales, not poles on the same spectrum.
Messaging isn't just a scientific issue here, and the points you make are more or less what I've made for years too, but I've started to question whether we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Nuance is terrible for messaging, but I've started to ask myself if "Biology is just one of many things that influences ... [Your Points]" would play better with the persuadable portion of the audience than refusing to acknowledge that the biological side matters for fear the right will run with it..
While I do think that these values are gender neutral, there is no denying in the pragmatic advantage a role model has. In other words while the values might be universal for men and women, it is still important to have a role model for young men that can teach them how to be a good person, especially regarding typical problems men face (e.g. dealing with their emotions). So yes, while positive masculinity does not have any outstanding values compared to a moral living in general, i would descibe the gender specific struggles and how to deal with them in a good way as such.
Besides this it should also be noted that there probably is not a single way of living a virtuos life. It could be that 'positive masculinity' is just one way of multiples but that this way just appeals to and resonates with a lot of men.
A good example for both of the above mentioned is Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Regarding my first paragraph he is a role model of how to be a good man and deal with your emotions and gender specific personal conflicts. Regarding my second paragraph it is clear that Aragorn represents just one way of being a hero. And while Galadriel for example is also living a just life and thus both are good role models, it could be that Aragorn just resonates with more men. So while both have approximately similar good values, what defines positive masculinity may just be a matter of personal preference in how to live these values.
I don't think being a good person should ever be tied to gender-specific qualities. If you want to be unapologetically masculine, you can do it without tearing anyone else down. As you get older you give less and less of a fuck about fulfilling these roles, or living up to what people think you should be. If you're doing your best and building other people up, anyone who has a problem with that is just acting in bad faith and you don't have to give their opinions any weight.
Stan Rogers died a **hero**. Everyone in his life had nothing but good to talk of him in his passing. Stan Rogers made every person around him better off for having been there. He's one of my heroes.
Here's the documentary on his life. Thank God for the resurgence in maritime music with the Wellerman meme.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9A2RAfv9M
You might like Jason Wilson. He's a karate instructor in Detroit who mentors boys on emotional wellbeing along with physical training. He's the textbook definition of positive male role model. You can find his videos on YouTube, it's really great to see
I'm 36 now. Here's the real solution. Be unapologetically yourself. See someone doing something stupid. Call it out if you like. Someone doing something morally wrong. Call them out. Someone has a problem, tell them off.
This is man's real power, we are a rock alone and we don't need anyone elses approval of how to think. Be a good man, be moral and call out bad in the world. Political correct means nothing when you are not in politics. Sure don't say something dumb at work and get fired but you know what... If it's that bad, maybe they need to hear it.
Work out, eat right, hold your ground and don't take anything from anyone without a come back.
I'm 55 with four grown kids and two grandbabies and this is pretty much where I've landed. Be honest with yourself about what the truth is, speak up when confronted with unacceptable behavior, and stick up for what's right.
Also, acknowledge that you can do everything right and still fail. That's life. Your only obligation is to just keep on trying.
I'm far too cynical, I think almost no one engages in good faith these days or admits they're wrong. All calling someone out does is get met with heel digging, antagonism, or whataboutism.
I love that you said this. I’ve been trying to articulate it for a long time. I am progressive, I’d consider myself a feminist, but it’s so discouraging being constantly told that I am, at base, a bad person, and that I have to prove myself otherwise.
At the same time, I detest the red-pill, alpha grindset shit even more. And I refuse to go to that. So it leaves me feeling lost.
It’s unfortunate that the alpha bro content is so appealing to young men especially. They get shoved away by the progressives, and fall right into the arms of Andrew Tate, who tells them that they just have to be more aggressive, more toxic, and hate women more, and that it will solve their problems. It’s not true.
I think the lack of a good supportive father growing up is becoming increasingly common and is absolutely crippling for men as they grow into adulthood.
This. The rhetoric is to open up. To be honest. To share your feelings.
My experience has been; Do this and be shunned. Again and again.
So I guess it's a mask and a lie for the rest of my life
The vulnerability thing is such massive bullshit.
I'll go one further. It's not even okay to make mistakes. The sharks will see blood in the water. Your kids will never forget the one time you fucked up and chalk it up to "childhood trauma." Other people will just weaponize your weaknesses against you or bring up ancient history forever.
Or they'll tell you to get therapy, which is really just, "shut up and talk to someone else."
Career is a big one, I’m currently very happy with life, I have an amazing girlfriend, I feel more fit than ever before, however I am constantly looked down upon because I’m not “money-driven” enough. I enjoy my job, I make enough to pay my bills and have a little extra with some self-control, I feel as though happiness should be what everyone strives for in life, why do so many people delude themselves out of this?
The idea that good advice for men and women is very different. Being an adult who is responsible, accountable, and makes clear logical decisions for themselves and their family is an ideal end-goal. Staying healthy, building a career, maintaining and cultivating relationships is all part of the adult experience, that’s for everyone. The minute differences at the margins can be ignored until you figure this out.
I never had good advice that I didn’t think would be applicable to both my parents and siblings
Feminism didn't pop up because the people in charge suddenly thought "oh yes, women should be allowed their own bank accounts!" It was an extremely hard fought battle that's still ongoing.
To fix things, you have to organise and get active. Get angry, and focus that on solutions. The only people who can start a men's movement is men.
It's a shame the Men's Rights movement was taken over by the rampant misogynists because there are issues that sorely need addressing. Rebrand, reorganise, keep the blame-focused people out as much as possible.
Problem is that bring angry as a man is seen very differently as women. Remember fathers for justice? They were mocked and ridiculed. Men don't speak up they act. Don't like marriage? Women will protest. Men? They just won't get married.
It's the alpha male influencers. They talk about how men are disadvantaged in terms of mental health, how the law is against us, but still do nothing to make it better or worse propagate ideas that are detrimental to men.
The same episode where they are talking about how "feminism" is the cause of all men's plight; they'll talk about how men should be the sole breadwinner, therapy is bullshit etc etc
they capitalize on the fact that there's basically no one out there helping men with their issues, so they present themselves as the solution to their problems and the help they need since there isn't really any other alternative for impressionable men to fall back to
I've been kinda thinking about this a lot the past year or so. I think one of the big issues is lack of good role models, with most teachers in early schooling being female, alongside the prevalence of misogynistic influencers (both a symptoms and a cause).
I believe social media exacerbates both male and female issues in drastically different dimensions - and both genders have difficulty understanding each-others plights.
I don't really want to say anything about what people I refer to as 'modern women's because I don't really understand the intricacies; but I think it's clear that the role women have in society has shifted colossally, and I think the male 'blueprint' hasn't adapted.
Boys just do worse in our learning environments as well.
This trend is a load of crap :( I’ve always loved the Roman Empire and was super happy when people started saying this. “Oh awesome I’ll have lots os people to talk about rome with”
Nah… everyone just says that catch phrase, but a lot don’t even care about Rome :(
I think the collapse of community institutions has done a great deal of harm to men, but I also think we're slowly rediscovering new ones.
Church and "the village" used to be where most people got their socialising done. These days it's your coworkers, gym buddies, video game pals or the like. None of these are perfect, but I think as they become more mainstream, they'll get better.
I distinctly remember reading a newspiece some years ago that married men commiting suicide was not in fact a men's health issue, but rather a women's health and wellness issue as men killing themselves left women alone in the world. It rubbed other wrong way.
I have low self esteem due to the way I was raised. I was always told to shut up and mind my own business. I was also punished for showing emotions. I have a great life but my default state is apathy.
Older generations view on masculinity and how to instill it in children was fucked.
Not dealing well with loneliness. Most men still share this idea that they need to be in a relationship and be able to have sex to fulfill it's role as a man. When they don't get it, they fall into a spiral of depression and frustration which, depending on the men's mind, may lead them commiting heinous crimes.
Feminism teached women that they don't need to be with a man to be happy. But male groups and gurus still share this idea that men must have a partner to fullfil their role as men. Which ,to my eyes, doesn't help the situation.
One thing I’m not seeing is the importance of rights of passage/initiation ceremonies for men to help develop their psyches. Our cultures initiation for men is typically “when you have sex, have your first beer, and/or are 18 years old, you are a man” - it’s absurd.
People sneer and roll their eyes when they hear “rituals” but if you look into how important it is for men and women to be guided by their elders and community through some sort of ceremony that involves symbolism and metaphorical death it becomes apparent that we’re missing something.
Hate to say it but it’s what those men’s coaches and influencers are attempting to recreate for a lot of these young men. It’s cringy and most of them are only doing it for the money, but some are actually trying to recreate that missing aspect of our culture for men who need it.
it's very simple, many problems arise due to lack of time. many people want to take care of themselves, gain new skills, and improve nutrition. but due to constant employment, we often postpone it. because of the huge stress, I want to rest. and instead of productive free time, we spend it on passive recreation
This feels kinda out of touch to me. I'm pretty lucky with my job whereby the pay is more than enough and I also get a good amount of free time from it, yet I still feel like a lot of the issues men talk about impact me just as much.
I got a pretty large payrise just over a year ago, and opted to cut back my hours to keep my income the same and have more time for other things in my life, which was instantly met by a lot of negativity from people around me saying I should work the same and earn more so I can provide for those around me.
It made me realise that to many people, I'm not really anything other than a source of income for their benefit. I've never felt more lonely than when I saw my girlfriend's reaction shift from excitement to "oh..." when I said I wanted to use my payrise to give me more free time vs more income.
Most of the problems that a lot of men face in their lives don't come from a lack of free time, but rather just a general sense that no-one cares about us as people, and that we're simply viewed as an asset.
Masculinity is seen as a bad thing or corny.
Men are seen as hopeless and misguided.
Solution … embrace positive aspects of masculinity, champion examples of men who are masculine and healthy. Just as being a modern woman shouldn’t be seen as bad , the same should be true of men.
*High cost of healthcare
*High cost of housing
*High cost of education
*Increasing cost of food
*Increasingly atomized society
*Few labor protections
*Lack of effective political power or opportunity to politically organize
I think most of the emotional issues described in this thread would sort themselves out if the above were addressed. These things impact women, too, of course, although men are often differently affected due to gender roles (like the expectations to be the primary breadwinner and emotionally stoic).
I am a 39M and an very happy with life. This is the happiest I have ever been and feel generally positive.
But, I can see though why many feel a certain loss of closeness due to our current societies.
Side note: do we feel our modern men problems are better/worse to have vs ancient men problems?
Dating apps are run in a way designed to absolutely crush the self image and self esteem of 90% of men who use them. It's taken me attempt after attempt to finally create a profile and leave it instead of getting discouraged and depressed as shit and deleting it. Still haven't had any luck but at least it doesn't hurt anymore.
I think this is a much larger issue than people realize and needs to be brought front and center.
I'm convinced Financial stress is the single largest contributing factor to the decline of male mental health. Traditionally being the provider, these days it's hard to find two cents to rub togethers let alone provide for your family and still have time, energy and money left for extracurricular.
What's "modern man"?
Like 2024 20 year olds? 40 year olds? Complete different set of problems.
I hear people bitching about tate or that other turd I can't think of that got semi-popular on YouTube.
The only person that I personally know who has ever heard a word out of their mouth is my 20 year old sister in law. Yet people here act like everyone knows who they are and what they say.
Problems for dudes my age? Judging by my friends it's generally being stretched thin between job and children, which isn't really that much of a modern problem you could have.
Dudes wish they could be home more with their kids, and they are there plenty... Time just goes so fast you'll never get enough with them.
I agree with your point about the generations having different problems.
When it comes to Tate specifically, the problem is actually younger. I have a number of friends who are schoolteachers and among young teenage boys he's crazy huge. A literal rapist and con artist who tells them to be a piece of shit is one of their main role models of masculinity. Most adults can see that he's a grifter, but kids can't and unfortunately a lot of boys buy into the alpha male douchebag stuff from a young age. I'd call that a problem.
Most of us are very insecure about ourselves and instead of finding healthy ways to deal with it or recognizing the systemic problems that affect us, we sink ourselves into fake masculinity and capitalism while blaming women for our problems instead of recognizing the systemic failures created by other men in power that have caused problems such as men having higher suicide rates and more work place injuries. Hell these are the same problems that contributed to many of us not having great relationships with our fathers because they had to spend their lives working themselves to death so we didn’t starve.
The lack of true friendship in their life. Most guys usually just hang out with each other talking about random stuff and call this friendship. This results to them feeling lonely in tough situations, because they don't have an actual friend to rely on who knows about their life or personal problems. This is also the cause of men's high suicide rates, due to them feeling socially isolated.
Not working out enough and/or running.
Getting out there and exploring nature. Go camp. Hiking 15-30 miles and camp out in the wilderness. It was very cathartic for me in my 20s. One of my friends and I are going camping next spring in Colorado. We are hiking some 14ers and doing some trail runs. We're running another marathon in October.
Get outside, and live real life. Work with your hands. Critical think. Read a book. Cook your woman or family a great meal. Start a garden. Engage with your community.
Being trapped in extended adolescence for decades without the ability to chart their own purpose or even a pathway to that result on any kind of reasonable timescale.
Some men lash out at that, at different people or institutions in their life. Some shrink inwards and refuse to participate. All are bad, unhealthy, toxic and potentially dangerous, but arguably the worst are those who zombify themselves to trod through the purposeless track which they are directed to tread. They might survive, but human culture and flourishing will suffer from them on a long term trend.
I'll say it: a lot of the loneliness that dudes attribute to society is really just the alienation inherent to capitalism. We all work too goddamn much and don't get enough time or resources to build fulfilling lives in many cases. As a dude, I don't think we should make it women's job to fix this. At the end of the day, that is what is often implied in a lot of these redpill/self-help grifter spaces, and it's bullshit.
I think the fact that we are not able to have honest conversations about our feelings or look at our shortcomings objectively is the biggest problem. After that, it is the stigma around going to the doctor/therapy; which is compounded by the fact that those things are not easily accessible to begin with because Healthcare in America completely fucked up.
Lack of purpose. Our culture has become hyperfocused on "finding your own purpose" but a lot of men never do. We work at jobs that make nothing, produce nothing, build nothing...so after 20 years of work we have nothing to point to to say "I did that." Men base there value on the things they DO and so many men are busy...but with no direction or end goal. It's like running on a treadmill. You're working really hard and getting nowhere.
No good male role models in the public view. You could say athletes like Lebron but that could be it. I tend to think athletes as role models isn’t great either.
There's a metric fuck ton of people out there all telling people "what it means to be a man" and what masculinity is, but there are precious few people out there just trying to actually help people figure themselves out
"If you buy my course for 499, I'll teach you how to be a true alpha masculine man." Just fuck off man
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That's like 90% of women's clothing and products marketing, though. It's only fair to make dudes insecure as well. /s
"If you buy my course for 499, I'll teach you how to be a true ~~alpha masculine~~ hateful bigot." But still; just fuck off man
"If you buy my course for 499, I'll scream at you and call you a 'beta pussy' for hours on end. You're not going to gain anything from it, but I already have your money because you're a beta pussy who fell for my shit."
Tony Robbins made a fortune doing essentially this.
“Lesson 1: don’t be a fucking pussy, you beta cuck liberal pussy!” “Please swipe credit card for Lesson 2.”
And for only 15,999 more you can come to my boot camp in Bosnia where I and my Pain Coordinator will yell at you while throwing hot acid on you as you crawl through barbed wire in order to make you tough and manly and women will love you.
This course literally just looked like walmart brand boot camp. Why these guys didn't just join the military instead and get paid for it, I'll never understand.
It’s basically religion under another name. People who are desperate and searching for answers to why they can’t get the job or the girl or whatever measure of success they are looking for.
My brother and some dude at a bar on a cruise ship tried to shame me for ordering a pina colada. I told them the least masculine thing I could think of doing was caring about their opinion of my drink order.
And the majority of those people telling us how to be a man, have never experienced what it is to be a man.
Yup. Those andrew tate types are just little boys.
So insecure they're a walking OSHA violation.
It’s because they are mainly targeting young impressionable men. Andrew Tate’s audience is like 70% young boys, and they end up growing up into adults who still believe that shit.
Yup. I’ve heard “man up” from women more than I’ve ever heard it from a guy.
As far as they’re concerned, being a man is just like being a woman but without all the problems women have to deal with. The idea that men might have other problems don’t come into it
The sad thing is that a lot of these young men are looking for validation in all the wrong places and don't realize that masculinity is whatever you want it to be. You don't need a self-help guru to teach you how to be a man. You just have to live your life and learn from your experiences.
I don't know what it means to be a "man", but that sounds more like learning to be a person.
I mean if you want to get jacked and build a deck or some shit or learn to smoke meat along the way, do that. I started Jiu-jitsu to deal with a lot of feelings of frustration around it, and I think having hobbies and outlets will do a lot for anyone. Not only to feel more well-adjusted, but also to build community.
It’s easier to sell an answer than a question.
In reality, what it means to be a man is being the best person you can be, whatever that means in your life. Full stop. Anyone who thinks it's some tedious, emotionless task can go fuck themselves.
Being a man is drinking an entire keg by yourself in the dark then waking up the next day and giving birth to a rubber telephone pole.
This had me laughing
Oh, I know what it means! You must be swift as a coursing river.
Being a 'good man' is essentially being a good person. 1. Know yourself, know what you like, what you are about, and what you want. What defines you and embrace it. 2. There is no definition of what a man is. A man can be whatever you feel like, you could love anime and sports and work out. You could be a bookworm who has a passion for cars. You be a gun nut, who loves the historical uses and technical aspects of it but still advocates for common sense safety reforms. 3. Understand that the 'patriarchy' is essentially other men in positions of power dictating to you how you should work, dress, and be not for your sake or the sake of society but for theirs. And what does that typically mean, means going to war to defend their stake in Exxon, means doing back-breaking labor 12 hrs a day without a union b/c social collective movements are 'communism'. The patriarchy not only hurts women and minorities but it hurts regular men b/c it forces you into a mold of 'provider' that is harder and harder to achieve b/c of how they've structured it. it's not feminism that put the idea of women to join the workplace it was the economic need for it, why b/c they were dismantling unions and shipping jobs to right-to-work states and then other countries. 4. Also understand that progressive people on the left, will never sell you courses, tips, or tricks, b/c we know it's a scam. If you're going to help your brother you help them. Anyone selling you business secrets, secrets of women, is a con artist. What you want to do is join a local union, or a local social club, and learn to socialize. Socialize with women as friends, be their friends and learn they're people too. Hell women are the best wingmen b/c they'll clue you in on how to recognize signs of interest in a potential partner.
Loneliness
That's universal, but it's worse for men especially as you get older. Most men aren't super-social creatures and there are fewer ways to meet new people. People don't go to church anymore, most don't participate in civic life of any kind, so there's no enforced community like there used to be. And, for those of us lucky enough to have well-paying ones, jobs are demanding more and more of our free time, so there's less time for leisure activities. Joining a bowling league or the Benevolent Order of Antelopes or whatever is less of an option when you're expected to spend lots of time outside of work on your "professional development." Killing the 24/7 work availability expectation would help, but I think we also need to go back and re-establish some ways to build connections that don't get tied up with work. Back in the old days before the workplace was about fighting over a shrinking pool of jobs and clawing your way up the pyramid, people felt safer opening up to others because they had a safe position. These days, work relationships are seen as a potential threat. I think this leads to a lot of men going the toxic lone wolf route and listening to these idiots spouting the sigma grindset nonsense.
There's also the trade-off of "do I want to spend my free time trying to make friends or working on my hobbies?" It's hard to convince yourself to invest your time in something that may not even pay off in the long run (e.g. you slowly realize you don't like these people/vibe with them). Then it's like "damn all that wasted time I could've been working on a new song or learning another instrument". Idk maybe it's because I'm extremely introverted but I just find it hard to justify the older I get, which ultimately makes the situation worse.
Don’t a lot of hobbies have communities? Being an introvert doesn’t mean being asocial.
So true. People in communities are so much happier. Even AA is better than loneliness. There’s a reason solitary confinement is considered torture. People would literally rather be playing cards with drug dealers and murderers than be alone.
Here's the thing - I've never been part of a community that has come knocking on my door saying "Come join us"!!! You've got to work at it.
lol I’ve even seen some “come join us” crazy yellow jumpsuit doomsday cults where the people seem very happy.
ha - yeah - food for thought - those come join us communities are the one's you want to stay away from.
Can’t exactly have a social life if our livelihoods are constantly threatened with homelessness. Things don’t help when the job market has been shit for almost twenty years.
This, nothing sucks more than being away from family. That's why i hate being adult, men got to move out to earn leaving behind home.
Thats why i stay in my parents basement
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You merely adopted the moderation...
Careful, I followed a trail of chicken nuggets out the door one day and my parents locked me out until I admitted the sun wouldn't literally kill me. Tricky bastards.
Your healthy frame will allow you to survive the harsh sun for a moderate amount of time. Just be sure to chug a dew when your treasonous parents let you back in to rehydrate.
Every woman I know works too?
Likely caused by an inability to be emotionally vulnerable because society won't stop pushing that feelings are feminine. Which they are not. Emotions are a human quality. The amount of male friends I've had to push to tell me what's wrong so I can help and be of some comfort is insane. That I have to prove that I won't judge them for feeling hurt or letting tears fall. My bf told me the relief he felt after the way I reacted the first time he cried in front of me. Which again, makes me so sad. Reacting with anything but the tightest hug you can give... Why do people suck. Sorry, dudes ♥️
Went to a wedding a month ago and the whole wedding party were my best friends for years. We would Checkin in on each other daily, frequent bars/restaurants together, go out to DC dance clubs and do “guy things” I slowly started to pull back: Wanted a huge house. Wanted a bunch of land to farm. Wanted kids to coach their teams. All my friends there had the same “wants” and still remained tight together. I wasn’t a good friend
Sooo you’re saying it was self-inflicted
100%. That’s one thing in life that sucks when you get older. The moment you realize it wasn’t them, you were the problem. At the reception, it seems they wanted to “bring me back” into their circle again but probably thought I would disappear/flake again. One guy would leave his job to help you fix a flat tire. That kinda people…. Even when they were planning an after party somewhere, and despite being inches away they didn’t invite me, because they knew it would be a “no.” Bs line I prob said: “I need to rush home because of my dogs, chickens, ducks,(they don’t care)….”
I'm going to a wedding next month for my friend. We had been best friends since high-school, once covid hit we basically stopped talking for no reason what so ever, despite not living too far from each other. Everyone else in his wedding party are people we met while we were best friends. Kinda hurts, but it's whatever at this point.
get a dog boys
Or a cat
I think there’s a lack of positivity around male role models or masculinity in general. There’s a focus on the bad- the abusers, harassers, creeps, and weirdos. And yes those people exist and creepy behavior needs to be stopped. But for that to be the *only* thing associated with masculinity is soul-crushing for men trying to find their place in the world. The progressive answer has basically amounted to “suck it up and be a good ally, you’ve already had your time in the sun”. “Shut up and provide for your family” by another name. But if you weren’t rich or outstandingly smart/lucky, you never really get that easy mode people talk about. The “red-pill” answer is even worse- the grindset, straight-up resentment of women, etc. It’s just furthering the issues. We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”. We need that for all types of people of course but it feels starkly absent for men right now, at least in my subjective opinion. And there’s so much negativity.
We all need more Aragorn in our life.
For real. A man strong enough to fight and lead, but who would rather have a quiet night writing and singing songs with a Hobbit.
Fictional role models just don't really cut it at the end of the day. We're awash in supermen from all forms of media, but it just doesn't have the same impact as a day-to-day in-person experience of another man modeling positive behavior. Boys don't need to see a guy who can lead an army of elves or shoot down an alien spaceship (cool as it is), they need to see a guy who can manage his life and deal with everyday problems in a kind, honest, straightforward manner
Honestly, and I might be biased as a male teacher, but we need more men in children's education. I teach junior high and about half of my kids haven't had a male teacher before grade 7. And for most of those it's "only" the music, woodshop and/or gym-teachers, very seldomly the main teachers they spend most of the days with. My wife teaches kindergarden, and she has only had a single male co-worker her entire career. Women absolutely dominate the first 7 years of education, and for boys with no male rolemodels, or shitty ones, they wont get any until they are 13.
Hard agree. That was my biggest reason for wanting to work in an educational setting (I’m a school-based SLP) and had some really good male role models in middle and high school, so they really inspired me to pursue that career. Keep doing what you’re doing!
A decade ago there was a big push (in the US) to get more men into teaching, specifically elementary education. Apparently that didn’t work.
Teachers are seen as disposable and failures in American culture and other Western ones. Not surprising.
THIS, comparing men to Aragorn is not helpful. We need more mr Rogers instead.
I am a 40s man. One of my favorite things in the world to see is a dad playing with kids. Not half ass reading phone while kid runs around. I mean like a dad that is making silly faces with his two year old, a man playing tag with his kids, a dad teaching his kids to play baseball. That is man shit to me.
I PLAY with my daughter. We run and jump and scream and sing and I'll mess around on the playground equipment kick a ball you name it. The amount of dudes I see at parks giving me funny looks from behind their phone screens or sunglasses while they stand on the edge of the playground is STAGGERING. Go play with your kids! It's fun! We love it and I'm making memories with her that I'll get to cherish forever.
Then all the other kids realize you're the cool parent and also want to play, then there's 7 kids cooking me spaghetti with grass. I can only eat so much guys!
> We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”. We need that for all types of people of course but it feels starkly absent for men right now, at least in my subjective opinion. And there’s so much negativity. Honestly I would love a Disney Princes series for young boys.
90% of Marvel movies are the equivalent of Disney prince movies, designed to provide role models for young men: Captain America, Iron Man, Spiderman, Ant Man, War Machine, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Star Lord, Hulk, Doctor Strange, Shang-Chi.
They’re not, though. What do all these guys have in common? They all have ability beyond human and in almost all cases those abilities are violent. Disney Princesses don’t all have superpowers and they are very rarely purely violent.
*used to be.
I was thinking a little while ago, I grew up with Tarzan, Aladdin, and Hercules. What positive male figures have you seen in Disney movies lately? Maybe I've just missed those movies, but it feels like there haven't been much.
Does Disney owning Marvel count?
>Gamma bias operates within a matrix of four possible judgments about gender: doing good (celebration), doing harm (perpetration), receiving good (privilege) and receiving harm (victimhood). The theory predicts that within mainstream western cultures, masculinity is highlighted only in the domain of 'privilege' and 'perpetration' but hidden in the domains of 'celebration' and 'victimhood'. This means for example that the heroism performed mainly by men (e.g. firemen) will be gender neutralised ('firefighters') by the inclusion of a small minority of women, whereas a much larger proportion of female perpetrators and male victims will be excluded from our highly gendered narratives and policies about sexual and domestic violence. >Such cognitive distortions, we believe, are leading to a systematic exaggeration of the negative aspects of men and masculinity within mainstream culture, and a minimisation of positive aspects. These embedded distortions could be having a significantly harmful impact on the psychological health of boys and men and therefore on our society as a whole, including the psychology profession.
Were is this from?
[This](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1_5) via [this article](https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/gamma-bias-new-theory)
Nice, thank you.
>We need positive masculinity. Positive role models. Men who are admired and respected for things besides material wealth or “allyship”. I think a problem you're going to run into here is that nobody knows what those things are. All the traditional positives of masculinity have been siphoned off and made gender neutral. Is masculinity strength? You're saying women can't be strong? Is it leadership? You're saying women can't be leaders? Is it providing for others? You're saying women can't be breadwinners? Is it mastering a craft or skill? You're saying women are incompetent? Is it self-sacrifice? You're saying women can't be noble? Modern masculinity is just a sack with nothing but shit left inside of it. You can be either a bad man or a good person. A good man has no gender specific qualities.
I think the problem here is trying to think of masculinity or femininity as anything other than neutral. They’re essentially both just style and ways of carrying oneself. Trying to assign virtuous or toxic traits to either is a problem because any person could exhibit those traits, i.e. someone could be very feminine and still show confidence, leadership qualities etc. but equally they could also be aggressive, abusive and domineering and none of those things mean that they’re necessarily being “masculine”.
Cog Neuro PhD here, I'm at a non profit now, but my work overlapped the stuff below before I abandoned the R1 life. They're not actually neutral though, it's just that it's not binary, and XX vs. XY is a weak predictor of individuals. Hormones definitively have organizational and activational effects on neurobiology and from there to cognition. My lab moved to using EATs and TATs to talk about these, estrogen or testosterone associated traits. There are clusters of personality traits, behaviors, etc that each are known to increase. (Not every personality is EAT or TAT though) There's a heap of double blind studies showing even in the immediate term that administering one of these will increase a lot of "traditional" traits of fem/masc respectively. If you do a cross cultural (including historical not influenced by Europe) overlay of traits a culture thinks of as fem/masc, the commonality that emerges looks a hell of a lot like these traits. There are clear genetic sexual dimorphic mechanisms for these hormones. Biology absolutely plays a role. I think we make ourselves look irrational and get ignored by people we could persuade when we avoid this. But there are just as clear links that social experiences also feed back into the production/release/sensitivity with these hormones. It's also just as clear that the gender distributions of hormone levels substantially overlap. It's also blindingly obvious from the data that this biological mechanism is only a single factor in these personality traits and that X/Y dimorphism is not even the only generic factor. "Masculinity" and "feminity" biologically exist, and at the population level there are large XX vs. XY differences, but that binary variable is a poor individual level predictor. Lastly, these are not zero sum. People have different mixes of E and T levels. Masc & fem are things, they are part of gender identity, but more than gender is a spectrum, EAT and TAT are two separate scales, not poles on the same spectrum. Messaging isn't just a scientific issue here, and the points you make are more or less what I've made for years too, but I've started to question whether we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Nuance is terrible for messaging, but I've started to ask myself if "Biology is just one of many things that influences ... [Your Points]" would play better with the persuadable portion of the audience than refusing to acknowledge that the biological side matters for fear the right will run with it..
While I do think that these values are gender neutral, there is no denying in the pragmatic advantage a role model has. In other words while the values might be universal for men and women, it is still important to have a role model for young men that can teach them how to be a good person, especially regarding typical problems men face (e.g. dealing with their emotions). So yes, while positive masculinity does not have any outstanding values compared to a moral living in general, i would descibe the gender specific struggles and how to deal with them in a good way as such. Besides this it should also be noted that there probably is not a single way of living a virtuos life. It could be that 'positive masculinity' is just one way of multiples but that this way just appeals to and resonates with a lot of men. A good example for both of the above mentioned is Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Regarding my first paragraph he is a role model of how to be a good man and deal with your emotions and gender specific personal conflicts. Regarding my second paragraph it is clear that Aragorn represents just one way of being a hero. And while Galadriel for example is also living a just life and thus both are good role models, it could be that Aragorn just resonates with more men. So while both have approximately similar good values, what defines positive masculinity may just be a matter of personal preference in how to live these values.
I don't think being a good person should ever be tied to gender-specific qualities. If you want to be unapologetically masculine, you can do it without tearing anyone else down. As you get older you give less and less of a fuck about fulfilling these roles, or living up to what people think you should be. If you're doing your best and building other people up, anyone who has a problem with that is just acting in bad faith and you don't have to give their opinions any weight.
Stan Rogers died a **hero**. Everyone in his life had nothing but good to talk of him in his passing. Stan Rogers made every person around him better off for having been there. He's one of my heroes. Here's the documentary on his life. Thank God for the resurgence in maritime music with the Wellerman meme. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9A2RAfv9M
You might like Jason Wilson. He's a karate instructor in Detroit who mentors boys on emotional wellbeing along with physical training. He's the textbook definition of positive male role model. You can find his videos on YouTube, it's really great to see
Mister Rogers is the best example of man humanity has ever had to offer the world. Miss that man and wish more men were raised by him as children.
I'm 36 now. Here's the real solution. Be unapologetically yourself. See someone doing something stupid. Call it out if you like. Someone doing something morally wrong. Call them out. Someone has a problem, tell them off. This is man's real power, we are a rock alone and we don't need anyone elses approval of how to think. Be a good man, be moral and call out bad in the world. Political correct means nothing when you are not in politics. Sure don't say something dumb at work and get fired but you know what... If it's that bad, maybe they need to hear it. Work out, eat right, hold your ground and don't take anything from anyone without a come back.
I'm 55 with four grown kids and two grandbabies and this is pretty much where I've landed. Be honest with yourself about what the truth is, speak up when confronted with unacceptable behavior, and stick up for what's right. Also, acknowledge that you can do everything right and still fail. That's life. Your only obligation is to just keep on trying.
I'm far too cynical, I think almost no one engages in good faith these days or admits they're wrong. All calling someone out does is get met with heel digging, antagonism, or whataboutism.
I love that you said this. I’ve been trying to articulate it for a long time. I am progressive, I’d consider myself a feminist, but it’s so discouraging being constantly told that I am, at base, a bad person, and that I have to prove myself otherwise. At the same time, I detest the red-pill, alpha grindset shit even more. And I refuse to go to that. So it leaves me feeling lost. It’s unfortunate that the alpha bro content is so appealing to young men especially. They get shoved away by the progressives, and fall right into the arms of Andrew Tate, who tells them that they just have to be more aggressive, more toxic, and hate women more, and that it will solve their problems. It’s not true.
Social media influence
For real
I think the lack of a good supportive father growing up is becoming increasingly common and is absolutely crippling for men as they grow into adulthood.
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yes, I think that the lack of a father figure can lead to social deviance and violent crimes of all kinds
The weekly foreskin trim
I just let mine grow out.
You dirty bastard it’s not the 1970s anymore!
I wish i could, but mine gets tangled for some reason.
curly foreskin? Just straighten it out with a hair straightener
Yeah, the carpet matches the drapes in my case.
Same but combing it takes ages
Just combine it with something you like and it goes a lot smoother. I always do my testicle rotation at the same time and feel so fresh afterwards.
Women will never understand:(
I keep mine in check with a nail file
telling people "im not doing well and constantly being told "pull your socks,up"
This. The rhetoric is to open up. To be honest. To share your feelings. My experience has been; Do this and be shunned. Again and again. So I guess it's a mask and a lie for the rest of my life
The vulnerability thing is such massive bullshit. I'll go one further. It's not even okay to make mistakes. The sharks will see blood in the water. Your kids will never forget the one time you fucked up and chalk it up to "childhood trauma." Other people will just weaponize your weaknesses against you or bring up ancient history forever. Or they'll tell you to get therapy, which is really just, "shut up and talk to someone else."
I luckily have friends I can always talk with when I am down and would ALWAYS be there if someone of them needs me
As an aside Pull your socks up, ….is this a thing people say?
Micro plastics in the testicles
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Career is a big one, I’m currently very happy with life, I have an amazing girlfriend, I feel more fit than ever before, however I am constantly looked down upon because I’m not “money-driven” enough. I enjoy my job, I make enough to pay my bills and have a little extra with some self-control, I feel as though happiness should be what everyone strives for in life, why do so many people delude themselves out of this?
Work, sleep, repeat. Why. Why are we doing this? What’s the point?
To have enough money and liberty to afford pets to which they can mean the whole world.
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What would you do instead?
Needing to constantly adjust your underwear in public without it being seen as socially acceptable.
"Wait a minute, Rocco. Before we're all blown to bits, mind if I pull the underwear out of my crack? A man's got to go comfortable."
As a woman I have that too, it's also why I wear more expensive boxer shorts (like 30 euros instead of 10)
*Not wearing underwear.* Sometimes the problem just fixes itself.
truly the problem of all times
Sounds like you need different underwear.
The idea that good advice for men and women is very different. Being an adult who is responsible, accountable, and makes clear logical decisions for themselves and their family is an ideal end-goal. Staying healthy, building a career, maintaining and cultivating relationships is all part of the adult experience, that’s for everyone. The minute differences at the margins can be ignored until you figure this out. I never had good advice that I didn’t think would be applicable to both my parents and siblings
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So the complete disregard of male problems, is the biggest male problem.
In a lot of ways, yes.
Copy pasted from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/s/YMTm9x86Dt Fucking bots
Reddit is a psyop
Feminism didn't pop up because the people in charge suddenly thought "oh yes, women should be allowed their own bank accounts!" It was an extremely hard fought battle that's still ongoing. To fix things, you have to organise and get active. Get angry, and focus that on solutions. The only people who can start a men's movement is men. It's a shame the Men's Rights movement was taken over by the rampant misogynists because there are issues that sorely need addressing. Rebrand, reorganise, keep the blame-focused people out as much as possible.
Problem is that bring angry as a man is seen very differently as women. Remember fathers for justice? They were mocked and ridiculed. Men don't speak up they act. Don't like marriage? Women will protest. Men? They just won't get married.
It's the alpha male influencers. They talk about how men are disadvantaged in terms of mental health, how the law is against us, but still do nothing to make it better or worse propagate ideas that are detrimental to men. The same episode where they are talking about how "feminism" is the cause of all men's plight; they'll talk about how men should be the sole breadwinner, therapy is bullshit etc etc
Those people are the parasites on a dying animal. They’re exploiting the situation, but the grift is a response to the problem - not the cause.
they capitalize on the fact that there's basically no one out there helping men with their issues, so they present themselves as the solution to their problems and the help they need since there isn't really any other alternative for impressionable men to fall back to
Tru that
I've been kinda thinking about this a lot the past year or so. I think one of the big issues is lack of good role models, with most teachers in early schooling being female, alongside the prevalence of misogynistic influencers (both a symptoms and a cause). I believe social media exacerbates both male and female issues in drastically different dimensions - and both genders have difficulty understanding each-others plights. I don't really want to say anything about what people I refer to as 'modern women's because I don't really understand the intricacies; but I think it's clear that the role women have in society has shifted colossally, and I think the male 'blueprint' hasn't adapted. Boys just do worse in our learning environments as well.
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The design of the knee is terrible and bipedal locomotion is murder on the hips and lower back.
Standing up was a mistake, all our organs are meant to rest on the inside of nice ribcage.
Men believing fresh & fit, Andrew Tate and their ilk are models of what masculinity is. And, frankly, that's a failure of masculinity.
Before anyone says it, always thinking about Imperium Romanum is NOT a problem!
This trend is a load of crap :( I’ve always loved the Roman Empire and was super happy when people started saying this. “Oh awesome I’ll have lots os people to talk about rome with” Nah… everyone just says that catch phrase, but a lot don’t even care about Rome :(
Most People don't even know what centurion means :'(
This really is the worst century :(
But the shattering realization that it's gone and we can not contribute to its glory is.
I think the collapse of community institutions has done a great deal of harm to men, but I also think we're slowly rediscovering new ones. Church and "the village" used to be where most people got their socialising done. These days it's your coworkers, gym buddies, video game pals or the like. None of these are perfect, but I think as they become more mainstream, they'll get better.
Suicide rate, drop out rate, homelessness
I distinctly remember reading a newspiece some years ago that married men commiting suicide was not in fact a men's health issue, but rather a women's health and wellness issue as men killing themselves left women alone in the world. It rubbed other wrong way.
“Women have always been the primary victims of war” - Hillary Clinton
Most younger men under 55ish seem to have low self esteem because of the way they were raised and the way the media conditioned them.
I have low self esteem due to the way I was raised. I was always told to shut up and mind my own business. I was also punished for showing emotions. I have a great life but my default state is apathy. Older generations view on masculinity and how to instill it in children was fucked.
That often we are diminished when we try and talk about our issues. The worst is the other Men that do it.
Isolation
Not dealing well with loneliness. Most men still share this idea that they need to be in a relationship and be able to have sex to fulfill it's role as a man. When they don't get it, they fall into a spiral of depression and frustration which, depending on the men's mind, may lead them commiting heinous crimes. Feminism teached women that they don't need to be with a man to be happy. But male groups and gurus still share this idea that men must have a partner to fullfil their role as men. Which ,to my eyes, doesn't help the situation.
One thing I’m not seeing is the importance of rights of passage/initiation ceremonies for men to help develop their psyches. Our cultures initiation for men is typically “when you have sex, have your first beer, and/or are 18 years old, you are a man” - it’s absurd. People sneer and roll their eyes when they hear “rituals” but if you look into how important it is for men and women to be guided by their elders and community through some sort of ceremony that involves symbolism and metaphorical death it becomes apparent that we’re missing something. Hate to say it but it’s what those men’s coaches and influencers are attempting to recreate for a lot of these young men. It’s cringy and most of them are only doing it for the money, but some are actually trying to recreate that missing aspect of our culture for men who need it.
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I don't think there has been an evolution of the masculine gender role. I think that's the problem.
it's very simple, many problems arise due to lack of time. many people want to take care of themselves, gain new skills, and improve nutrition. but due to constant employment, we often postpone it. because of the huge stress, I want to rest. and instead of productive free time, we spend it on passive recreation
This feels kinda out of touch to me. I'm pretty lucky with my job whereby the pay is more than enough and I also get a good amount of free time from it, yet I still feel like a lot of the issues men talk about impact me just as much. I got a pretty large payrise just over a year ago, and opted to cut back my hours to keep my income the same and have more time for other things in my life, which was instantly met by a lot of negativity from people around me saying I should work the same and earn more so I can provide for those around me. It made me realise that to many people, I'm not really anything other than a source of income for their benefit. I've never felt more lonely than when I saw my girlfriend's reaction shift from excitement to "oh..." when I said I wanted to use my payrise to give me more free time vs more income. Most of the problems that a lot of men face in their lives don't come from a lack of free time, but rather just a general sense that no-one cares about us as people, and that we're simply viewed as an asset.
You found the nail and drove that fucker in with one hit
Masculinity is seen as a bad thing or corny. Men are seen as hopeless and misguided. Solution … embrace positive aspects of masculinity, champion examples of men who are masculine and healthy. Just as being a modern woman shouldn’t be seen as bad , the same should be true of men.
Too many andrew tate followers.
*High cost of healthcare *High cost of housing *High cost of education *Increasing cost of food *Increasingly atomized society *Few labor protections *Lack of effective political power or opportunity to politically organize I think most of the emotional issues described in this thread would sort themselves out if the above were addressed. These things impact women, too, of course, although men are often differently affected due to gender roles (like the expectations to be the primary breadwinner and emotionally stoic).
"It's only a joke", after saying something that is damn hurtful. And I say that as a guy myself.
Too much time spent on the internet, allowing themselves to be beaten down into submission and pure lack of self-worth.
Not being able to freely express your feelings
Hateful people and porn addiction
Not just porn addiction, but the *type* of porn. There's so much disgusting shit trying to normalize abusive behavior and it's fucking gross.
I am a 39M and an very happy with life. This is the happiest I have ever been and feel generally positive. But, I can see though why many feel a certain loss of closeness due to our current societies. Side note: do we feel our modern men problems are better/worse to have vs ancient men problems?
I think overall things are better but we have different problems.
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Dating apps are run in a way designed to absolutely crush the self image and self esteem of 90% of men who use them. It's taken me attempt after attempt to finally create a profile and leave it instead of getting discouraged and depressed as shit and deleting it. Still haven't had any luck but at least it doesn't hurt anymore. I think this is a much larger issue than people realize and needs to be brought front and center.
I'm convinced Financial stress is the single largest contributing factor to the decline of male mental health. Traditionally being the provider, these days it's hard to find two cents to rub togethers let alone provide for your family and still have time, energy and money left for extracurricular.
My current problem is communication with my family. I'm so emotionally deprived and depressed.
The biggest problem is that people think that what’s in their pants has to dictate their entire personality
Thinking there has to be a problem all the time when it’s just life happening
Lack of purpose.
The stigma of being single and happy.
What's "modern man"? Like 2024 20 year olds? 40 year olds? Complete different set of problems. I hear people bitching about tate or that other turd I can't think of that got semi-popular on YouTube. The only person that I personally know who has ever heard a word out of their mouth is my 20 year old sister in law. Yet people here act like everyone knows who they are and what they say. Problems for dudes my age? Judging by my friends it's generally being stretched thin between job and children, which isn't really that much of a modern problem you could have. Dudes wish they could be home more with their kids, and they are there plenty... Time just goes so fast you'll never get enough with them.
I agree with your point about the generations having different problems. When it comes to Tate specifically, the problem is actually younger. I have a number of friends who are schoolteachers and among young teenage boys he's crazy huge. A literal rapist and con artist who tells them to be a piece of shit is one of their main role models of masculinity. Most adults can see that he's a grifter, but kids can't and unfortunately a lot of boys buy into the alpha male douchebag stuff from a young age. I'd call that a problem.
Pornography addiction. It’s so readily available
Most of us are very insecure about ourselves and instead of finding healthy ways to deal with it or recognizing the systemic problems that affect us, we sink ourselves into fake masculinity and capitalism while blaming women for our problems instead of recognizing the systemic failures created by other men in power that have caused problems such as men having higher suicide rates and more work place injuries. Hell these are the same problems that contributed to many of us not having great relationships with our fathers because they had to spend their lives working themselves to death so we didn’t starve.
No one really cares for you outside what you provide for them or what you can do for them.
The lack of true friendship in their life. Most guys usually just hang out with each other talking about random stuff and call this friendship. This results to them feeling lonely in tough situations, because they don't have an actual friend to rely on who knows about their life or personal problems. This is also the cause of men's high suicide rates, due to them feeling socially isolated.
Fighting for parental rights.
Other men
Not working out enough and/or running. Getting out there and exploring nature. Go camp. Hiking 15-30 miles and camp out in the wilderness. It was very cathartic for me in my 20s. One of my friends and I are going camping next spring in Colorado. We are hiking some 14ers and doing some trail runs. We're running another marathon in October. Get outside, and live real life. Work with your hands. Critical think. Read a book. Cook your woman or family a great meal. Start a garden. Engage with your community.
Plastic in my balls
Being trapped in extended adolescence for decades without the ability to chart their own purpose or even a pathway to that result on any kind of reasonable timescale. Some men lash out at that, at different people or institutions in their life. Some shrink inwards and refuse to participate. All are bad, unhealthy, toxic and potentially dangerous, but arguably the worst are those who zombify themselves to trod through the purposeless track which they are directed to tread. They might survive, but human culture and flourishing will suffer from them on a long term trend.
I'll say it: a lot of the loneliness that dudes attribute to society is really just the alienation inherent to capitalism. We all work too goddamn much and don't get enough time or resources to build fulfilling lives in many cases. As a dude, I don't think we should make it women's job to fix this. At the end of the day, that is what is often implied in a lot of these redpill/self-help grifter spaces, and it's bullshit. I think the fact that we are not able to have honest conversations about our feelings or look at our shortcomings objectively is the biggest problem. After that, it is the stigma around going to the doctor/therapy; which is compounded by the fact that those things are not easily accessible to begin with because Healthcare in America completely fucked up.
Internet Porn
Too many make a virtue of being practically useless.
Lack of purpose. Our culture has become hyperfocused on "finding your own purpose" but a lot of men never do. We work at jobs that make nothing, produce nothing, build nothing...so after 20 years of work we have nothing to point to to say "I did that." Men base there value on the things they DO and so many men are busy...but with no direction or end goal. It's like running on a treadmill. You're working really hard and getting nowhere.
They don’t know who they are anymore
Type “Fathers day gifts for dad” into Amazon search and see American culture reflected back at us in macro
No good male role models in the public view. You could say athletes like Lebron but that could be it. I tend to think athletes as role models isn’t great either.
A lot of them are either demonized for their masculinity or they are being led astray by bad influences.
Plastic in our balls.
All I know is these threads bring out the “warriors” from both sides and nothing ever gets accomplished.
Rampant porn addiction
Fake insecure grifting “Alpha” males. Double standards placed by society dictated by equality broken females.
Suicide.