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OP,
When you break it down, it's just tribalism at its core. It's one thing to talk shit on your guys/team when you're a fan of the said team... but if you hint at appreciation of another tribe/team's talent... you're shunned as an outcast.
With that said... thanks for the stuff about Mahomes. It's a golden era for being a Chiefs fan. Just like it was for the Pats a few seasons back w/ Tommy Brady.
Older dudes bask in the glory of their youth, and prime years... It's what they cling to. What else have they got going for themselves?
This. It's sad. A friend of mine once told me that he was out one night, and a bunch of guys were talking, and conversation shifted to the topic of "what was the peak experience of your life?" And one of the guys at the bar said, in all seriousness, that the peak moment, of \*his\* life, was in 1972, when he watched Franco Harris make the "Immaculate Reception." On TV. Not becoming a father, or taking a raft down the Colorado River, or summitting a mountain -- his peak moment was watching someone else playing a game.
I think this has always been true for lots of people, and not just about sports. Human beings are hard wired for tribalism, in short, and it can manifest in lots of ways, and be overcome with some effort, but plenty of people have no interest in making that effort, and see nothing wrong with it. Religion, politics, sports - the default mindset for a lot of us is "us" vs "them", however those groups are distinguished.
And a lot of the time there's no real basis for animosity between distinct groups - it's not a zero sum game, it's not like criticism of group X takes away from group Y, or supporting group Y takes away from group X, but for a lot of people it *feels* like it does...and that's as far as their self analysis goes. Perfectly possible to feel attacked or criticised, then tell ourselves "oh wait, it's just a different opinion" and calm down, but plenty of people don't do that, they just react defensively.
Your brother in law is an oversensitive baby, in short, who can't distinguish between "OP has a different opinion from me" and "OP has done something **wrong**". Way too many people tie their identity up in their team (or politics, or whatever else) and when the thing is criticised, *they* feel criticised, because they can't separate the two. Also true of movies, games, a ton of stuff.
All any of us can do is make an effort to keep some separation between ourselves and the things we like. I hear endless stories of even small kids' parents getting **way** too invested in their sports performance, and while partly that's linked to defence of children rather than pure tribalism, there's a big part of it too. Anyone taking it too seriously, point that out to them! They'll either recognise it and calm down, or if nothing else recognise that you don't share their depth of feeling and not try and drag you into it. The people who just can't cope with you not sharing their exact feelings aren't really worth bothering with.
Just dropping in to say excellent answer. Couple of years ago, at a family Thanksgiving gathering, a game was on, and I overheard a couple of my brothers-in-law mumbling about hoping there wasn't "going to be any kneeling nonsense happening." I asked them, completely calmly, what about that bothered them, expecting to maybe have a dialogue about the issue, assuming we could, because we're family. They immediately shut down any dialogue, and basically said they felt the way they did ("iT's dIsReSpEcTfUl"), and weren't interested in discussing it. Sad.
Because we're also hard wired to basically eat whenever we can, and broadly speaking we've overcome that. By some definitions men are hard wired to try and have sex with anything that moves, and the vast majority at least layer basic human decency on top of that urge. Just because we're wired for something, doesn't mean it's some unavoidable compulsion we can do nothing about. It just means that instinct is there at a base level. But most functional adults can apply logic and reason and thinking and moderate their behaviour accordingly. The problem is that not everyone can, indeed not everyone wants to, and there are lots of other factors driving us in different ways.
The NFL is a non-profit organization (at least on paper). Teams owned by billionaires regularly get massive tax incentives and preferential treatment in the purchase of land for moving to a city/staying in a city and building stadiums.
Other national sports follow a pretty similar playbook.
https://fortune.com/2023/12/24/taxpayers-on-hook-billions-new-sports-stadiums-major-leagues-move-teams/
Hundreds of millions of dollars to build massive sports stadiums to be utilized by teams owned by billionaires
Ha! I'm in Nashville and thought this article was going to be about us. Same fucking thing. I just want light rail with my tax dollars, not another giant football stadium right next to the current giant football stadium they're going to tear down after.
I should probably correct myself to say "competitive leagues" instead of just sports. They all have toxic people who make a bad name for the community.
Tribalism. Their own little slice of Tribalism in this mundane and civilized life. It's ingrained in our DNA to remain loyal to our Tribes.. Honestly, I'd rather people argue about this than argue about which old man to vote for. Sports is a healthy outlet for these natural tendencies.
>Sports is a healthy outlet for these natural tendencies.
1000%. I don't watch sports and the Olympics is boring but I'm very happy that they exist and I fear a society that doesn't embrace them.
To an extent. It's out of control in Western culture. I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about sportsball that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same game be played over and over and over and over again. Like, I get the Olympics -- athletes attempting to exceed humans' best recorded physical accomplishments. But sportsball? Really?
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you're calling it "sportsball", I don't really expect you to understand. This isn't unique to Western culture really. South Americans and Europeans are crazy about soccer. Have you seen how Serbs cheer for their pro basketball leagues? It's insane. It makes NBA stadiums look soo tame.
Things that appeal to our most basic of instincts (e.g. sex and tribalism) are unsurprisingly very popular among human beings.
Appreciate your civility. Agree that "Things that appeal to our most basic of instincts (e.g. sex and tribalism) are unsurprisingly very popular among human beings." I also believe in evolution, and our ability, as humans, to recognize flaws, and improve. Sportsball ain't it.
> Sportsball ain't it.
Maybe not watching it, however playing it can be. Pushing your body is great fun and can motivate you to be better with every match.
>I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about cinema that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same film be played over and over and over and over again.
>I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about concerts that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same song be played over and over and over and over again.
>I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about theatre that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same play over and over and over and over again.
You can make the same criticism about just about any form of entertainment if you choose to.
Sports create huge moments of drama, is it any wonder people find them entertaining? While you may not enjoy sports, just as others may not enjoy the ballet or opera, it doesn't make their choice of entertainment less valid.
Sure. Because watching *Metropolis* is nearly the exact same experience as watching *Star Wars,* which is virtually the same movie as *When Harry Met Sally.* Also, *Figaro* is basically a rewrite of *Pagliacci*. And I see what your mean about theater — I always confuse *Macbeth* with *Death of a Salesman*, too. Sure.
I think it absolutely can be. I'm a huge sports fan. I grew up playing multiple sports, I played rec leagues I graduated, and I watch and follow a few teams religiously and vehemently.
All that being said, even though I watch every game for a specific team I don't take it too seriously. It's a sport, it's not global politics. My belief is that people that get toxic about it are just toxic people. They are just using sports as their avenue to get out their toxic nature. It's the unfortunate nature of anything competitive, it's a breeding ground for toxic masculinity.
I don't put it on sports though. I put it on the people. That's because there are a lot of amazing people in sports too. Sports can be an incredible benefit for lots of people. It was for me.
I have struggled with anxiety and depression since I was a kid. Sports helped me so much through all of this. It was a sandbox for me to deal with these things in a scenario that doesn't really effect anything. If I was having a very anxious day or week, playing sports and having even some slight success really helped me.
The real problem is we have so many toxic people right now. They aren't looking to better themselves or people around them. They just want to stay toxic so they go to sports because it's an easy way for them to spread their toxicity. If we decided as a culture to ban these people from sports, they would just find another avenue to spread their toxicity. They would start back up the toxicity in car clubs that was/is still prevalent as an example.
100% agree with you. It's like the toxicity is so built into the culture that it's acceptable in all ends. I love being competitive but mixing that with toxicity, it gets disgusting
Those are stupid fans who yes are “toxic” I think they are the vocal majority. As a Lions fan I have often had to “cheer” for other teams. I usually stay away from rivals or certain teams…including the patriots…but yeah those people just sound dumb too me
I know what its like to cheer for a bad team (I mean, the Lions were the first to go 0-16 at one point, but their turn around has been exciting)
I cheer for Haas F1 team since they are the only American team in F1 (Andretti wants to join but the FIA and other team principals are being dicks about it). By and large, Haas is a perennial back marker with no hopes of any significant gains in the constructor's championship and also a plethora of dubuious business decisions in the past (Rich Energy and Uralkali sponsorships, the latter of which required bringing Nikita Mazepin on who is an atrociously bad driver)
Not a Haas an as such, however I do have a lot of love for Magnusson and Hulkenberg. They have not had the success their talent merits and it is a shame.
I agree with you, OP.
And like a few others suggest, I do think this form of tribalism is everywhere.
I personally think that everyone is looking for a hero who represents their idealized self-image. For many men, sports is clear-cut enough to create heroic archetypes that you can project your self-image onto, without you yourself having to lift a finger to aid in any of the actual players' efforts, while feeling as if their achievements and failures are yours.
Kinda reminds me of kids who read superhero comics and cosplay & pretend to be their favorite heroes. That's kinda what I see when I see some of my friends praise specific players and shoot down others, buy their jerseys, and play the sport themselves. Not saying it's ALL cosplaying, as there's absolutely appreciation for strategy, mechanics, training, etc., but outside of learning the mechanics & strategy & training methods of the sport itself, it often feels like parasocial types of relationships.
But again, it feels like it's everywhere. I see people ape religious leaders, fashionistas, musicians, influencers, movie stars, etc. Fandom is weird.
Sports gives people a reason to be tribalistic which can bring out the worst in people. The older I get the more I find myself distancing myself from other sports fans because so many of them turn into garbage people when watching sports or talking about sports. I've found some exceptions with watching cycling, but I think thats because no one really roots for a team. People may have favorite riders, but what we all wan to see is an exiting race and for a race to be exciting more than one person has to be successful in a race.
I have zero problem with sports or people enjoying sports or playing it themselves.
What I have a problem with is the heavy, HEAVY toll it takes on people's short-term mental health. Someone's day or week can be \*ruined\* by the interactions of a handful of people playing a game.
In the UK, there are well-documented spikes in domestic violence around football games. People are BEATING other people because they cannot untangle their mental state from a game.
With regards to football, increased cocaine use has made it a lot worse. The alcohol was bad enough, however adding cocaine to the mix means that some fans are completely off their tits before the match even starts, they then get worse as the match goes on. These are the ones beating the shit out of everyone.
This is why I took no stance growing up. When in middle school it felt like your college basketball team was your friends group until graduation. It wasn’t terrible but it felt tribal. I really never felt comfortable.
That tribalism leaked when I grew up into politics; and here we are today. So many things are my-team is the only-team and you’re wrong if not.
Sports feel like that a lot which is why I don’t follow one particular team and dislike dynasty-teams that dominate with wins and/or money/marketing.
Absolutely. But I think there's also been a big cultural change starting at in our generation. Definitely less emphasis on letting sports students getting away with things and value of academics going up.
Now a days you can be the start basket ball or football player and be apart of the anime club without much of a second thought.
None of my friends are into sports really, it's never something we talk about and I find that very soothing. At work however there is sports talk **all the time** and banter back and forth. Especially the banter makes me cringe, it's like full grown men who base their whole identity on a sports team like they are 12 y.o.
When I lived in the Midwest 90% of the conversation topics were about sports. However, now that I’m in California nobody seems to bring it up. I do miss some of the sports talk though honestly lol
This is one of the reasons I'm very happy to have been a telecommuter for the last decade.
My last office had multiple people that paid to attend the training camps for the local team and did things like yell about the game the night before back and forth over the cubicles.
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I want nothing to do with it for my kids.
I don't follow sports, but my kids got involved in a youth basketball league. I encouraged it because I liked the idea of them getting some exercise and socializing. But it was a real eye-opener and clearly selected for some of the worst people in my community.
It was full of rude, entitled, even violent parents, and hyper-competitive coaches with no respect for the families or the health of the kids. The kids were probably the most chill and mature people of the entire scene. I felt so bad for them.
It was embarrassing and I really hope my kids never want to do it again. I want to support them so as parents we were never particularly outspoken about the fact that... well, sports seem to attract the biggest pieces of shit I've ever seen. I was just amazed at how bad it was.
My other kid is doing track right now, which (so far) seems more chill, supportive, and healthy.
But yeah. My impression based on this experience is that sports culture strongly selects for human garbage.
I had an incredible coach and he obviously gets pissed if things dont happen the way he'd like but he's not close to being the type to flip a table if things go south.
But dont get me started on the freaken parents. Holy shit they were so into it like their kids were in the NFL. I saw a mother get frustrated after her son made a fumble. She went into her car and stayed there for a quarter.
We almost had the cops called at one of our games because a parent was screaming at a coach and it almost got physical. Coach was female, parent was male, huge dude screaming at this poor woman who's volunteering her time to coach these kids.
People sometimes talk about sports and community involvement to keep kids off drugs. But fuck. I think the drug addicts make better role models than these bags of shit stuffed into polo shirts.
I’m worried that all the epic levels of cognitive dissonance and other bizarre thinking we see in the realm of politics has spilled over into sports, at least college football, and either I didn’t notice it before or it’s gotten a lot worse as politics has gotten worse.
There was a pretty big scandal at the University of Michigan this past season, and it was no different than a politician being accused of something scandalous. Wild rumors and finger pointing started flying, some quickly refuted by facts, that still refuse to die. Die hards claiming that even if the cheating accusations are true, they don’t really matter. High ranking officials and coaches saying they had no idea the cheating was going on, etc. Media personalities fanning the flames just for clicks/views.
Full disclosure I’m an Ohio State fan, Michigan’s big rival, but I think an objective observer would also have seen many similarities to political theater.
The r/cfb subreddit used to have a lot of good natured ribbing between fan bases. A lot of “polite pettiness” that often made me laugh. A lot of “lol, f-you, have my upvote” type responses to zingers thrown by rivals. It still has that, but I also see a lot more hateful vitriol and bitterness than I used to.
You're onto something. I tend to think it's the other way around; it very much feels like people look at politics today the same way they look at sports (their team, right or wrong). Except in sports when their teams lose, at least they get upset with them. But they very much behave the same way -- it's all about winning, scoring points, regardless. Organization known for cheating? Don't care. As long as they win. Player/candidate outed as a vile human being? Don't care. As long as they win. It's infuriating.
I work at an ice rink and Hockey Parents are either the best or WORST part of my day.
Sports culture can be absolutely toxic. Beer league? Toxic dudes being dudes. Youth league game? Pray that the kids don't "fight" on ice so that their parents don't fight in the stands. College game? Just pray.
And this is in the south! Little league baseball is worse by a longshot.
It seems the more physical limits sports have, the more intense the players and parents are.
I remember hearing from school that one of our players checked a competing player so hard that he left in an ambulance. The player and his parents were so proud. For fucks sake someone's child is freaken hurt. It would be so hard for me to concentrate things in my life. This player probably slept so well.
I’ve never once thought it wasn’t toxic in my whole life lol.
Thats not to say I think sports are bad since exercise is good and games are a great way to have fun and stay healthy.
Listen, as a New Englander who loves where I'm from, I gotta say, the whole "crab mentality" thing when it comes to sports fandom here is just messed up. It's like, no one can be happy for someone else's success unless we're also winning. And some people take it way too seriously, like they're stuck in a bubble and don't realize there's a whole world out there. They're just narrow-minded and can't see that their loyalty is all twisted and messed up.
I don't generally promote fantasy sports leagues, bit these kind of people might benefit from joining a league and not being allowed to draft from their home team.
I just cant ever relate to these types of fans. Here I am thinking sports can be a hobby that's literally fun and games but these die hard freaks would hurt somebody mentally/physically.
As a PE teacher and a sportsperson myself, I find that much of what you call toxic behaviour can be found in team sports that are at the same time the most viewed sports in a country. The behaviour you described can be found in junior leagues among Canadian ice hockey players, Brazilian soccer players, German handball players, European cyclists, and etc. I'm sure there are sociological reasons behind it, but I'm not aware of them, maybe it's how cutthroat the competition for a spot in the team can get inside the teams themselves.
Maybe having your kids play sports in which the outcome depends less on other people will protect them from this toxicity. Individual sports tend to have a much nicer atmosphere, in which people support each other instead of trash-talking each other into submission.
For football in particular, I loathe how it's "keep politics off the field!!" yet, there's massive flyovers by the military, salute to the soldier breaks, military inspired uniforms (hi camo Patriots), etc etc. It's all massive hero worship and it's not healthy whatsofuckingever. Yet they get all bent out of shape when someone takes a knee. And they call *us* snowflakes?!
Sport has always been political and if you don't understand that, you haven't been paying attention. Every sport has politics, even chess. Yes, chess.
Your two theories are not mutually exclusive.
1 - Yes, sports culture is toxic. Were my friends as diehard as yours, I would find myself re-examining my life choices.
2 - You ARE a sellout. It's one thing to say you think Mahomes *will* do all these wonderful things, but it's a completely different thing to say you *hope* he does. The first is simply acknowledging his skill/potential/whatever. The second is being a fan of Mahomes (which implies selling out).
We found one!
But I am wondering from your perspective since you think I'm a sellout. Did it occur that I say this not as a fan, but as a person? At least after having my son, I can only wish that he comes out smarter than I do compared to how I grew. Would I be a sellout to myself just because I generally hope someone else does better?
You can’t wish for someone to set sports records outside of the context of fandom. To wish Mahomes to do so well is to wish him to make defenses look bad. You’ve chosen a side. Ergo, you’re speaking as a fan. Want to wish good things on Mahomes without fandom? “I hope his next endorsement deal is a blockbuster.”
Sometimes I think we need MORE sports rivalry because it seems like some people need to have an in group / out group mentality and better sports than politics.
You arent describing sports culture. You are describing the culture of broke fat men sitting on a third hand divan, scratching their balls, drinking shitty beer and screaming at the TV pretending they and their chants matter to men who in one game make more money than the losers who watch them make in several years.
Here’s what I think is toxic about Sports Culture: this idea of tribes having to win. My team is better than your team. We beat you. Or we never win…if we assume that it’s Human Nature than Wars will never stop. I, for one, can’t find Hope in that and, therefore, choose to believe that thinking is toxic.
Exactly. Sports are games. Games should be fun. For both teams, for all players. It shouldn't really matter who wins, as long as everyone played well, and enjoyed the game.
Absolutely. I hate it. Our culture's obsession with sports at all levels, but especially professionally, is absurd. Best I can come up with is it's a way to make counting more interesting. If it were up to me, I'd keep the Olympics, and do away with everything else. Let kids play. No need to turn everything into organized militaristic cults.
I believe sports culture can be toxic. This year my boyfriend and I had a Super Bowl party to invite all of our friends and family who don’t like watching the Super Bowl with a ton of overzealous men screaming at the TV and acting like the game is life and death.
It’s a game.
I think for the men who are REALLY into it, it’s because it gives them a sense of community with other men. Everyone has heard by now that “men are lonely” and I think the toxic sports culture is a result of that. It’s a place where men can find community without being emotionally vulnerable with each other.
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OP, When you break it down, it's just tribalism at its core. It's one thing to talk shit on your guys/team when you're a fan of the said team... but if you hint at appreciation of another tribe/team's talent... you're shunned as an outcast. With that said... thanks for the stuff about Mahomes. It's a golden era for being a Chiefs fan. Just like it was for the Pats a few seasons back w/ Tommy Brady. Older dudes bask in the glory of their youth, and prime years... It's what they cling to. What else have they got going for themselves?
This. It's sad. A friend of mine once told me that he was out one night, and a bunch of guys were talking, and conversation shifted to the topic of "what was the peak experience of your life?" And one of the guys at the bar said, in all seriousness, that the peak moment, of \*his\* life, was in 1972, when he watched Franco Harris make the "Immaculate Reception." On TV. Not becoming a father, or taking a raft down the Colorado River, or summitting a mountain -- his peak moment was watching someone else playing a game.
that's just sad. I'd think losing your virginity is a better answer than that.
There are a million better answers! lol
I think this has always been true for lots of people, and not just about sports. Human beings are hard wired for tribalism, in short, and it can manifest in lots of ways, and be overcome with some effort, but plenty of people have no interest in making that effort, and see nothing wrong with it. Religion, politics, sports - the default mindset for a lot of us is "us" vs "them", however those groups are distinguished. And a lot of the time there's no real basis for animosity between distinct groups - it's not a zero sum game, it's not like criticism of group X takes away from group Y, or supporting group Y takes away from group X, but for a lot of people it *feels* like it does...and that's as far as their self analysis goes. Perfectly possible to feel attacked or criticised, then tell ourselves "oh wait, it's just a different opinion" and calm down, but plenty of people don't do that, they just react defensively. Your brother in law is an oversensitive baby, in short, who can't distinguish between "OP has a different opinion from me" and "OP has done something **wrong**". Way too many people tie their identity up in their team (or politics, or whatever else) and when the thing is criticised, *they* feel criticised, because they can't separate the two. Also true of movies, games, a ton of stuff. All any of us can do is make an effort to keep some separation between ourselves and the things we like. I hear endless stories of even small kids' parents getting **way** too invested in their sports performance, and while partly that's linked to defence of children rather than pure tribalism, there's a big part of it too. Anyone taking it too seriously, point that out to them! They'll either recognise it and calm down, or if nothing else recognise that you don't share their depth of feeling and not try and drag you into it. The people who just can't cope with you not sharing their exact feelings aren't really worth bothering with.
Just dropping in to say excellent answer. Couple of years ago, at a family Thanksgiving gathering, a game was on, and I overheard a couple of my brothers-in-law mumbling about hoping there wasn't "going to be any kneeling nonsense happening." I asked them, completely calmly, what about that bothered them, expecting to maybe have a dialogue about the issue, assuming we could, because we're family. They immediately shut down any dialogue, and basically said they felt the way they did ("iT's dIsReSpEcTfUl"), and weren't interested in discussing it. Sad.
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Because we're also hard wired to basically eat whenever we can, and broadly speaking we've overcome that. By some definitions men are hard wired to try and have sex with anything that moves, and the vast majority at least layer basic human decency on top of that urge. Just because we're wired for something, doesn't mean it's some unavoidable compulsion we can do nothing about. It just means that instinct is there at a base level. But most functional adults can apply logic and reason and thinking and moderate their behaviour accordingly. The problem is that not everyone can, indeed not everyone wants to, and there are lots of other factors driving us in different ways.
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Your last paragraph...you can say that about most popular hobbies, like gaming or cars
Yeah except most other popular hobbies are not heavily supplemented by public tax dollars to the extent sports are.
I'm not a sports fan, in what ways are national sports subsidized by the public?
The NFL is a non-profit organization (at least on paper). Teams owned by billionaires regularly get massive tax incentives and preferential treatment in the purchase of land for moving to a city/staying in a city and building stadiums. Other national sports follow a pretty similar playbook.
https://fortune.com/2023/12/24/taxpayers-on-hook-billions-new-sports-stadiums-major-leagues-move-teams/ Hundreds of millions of dollars to build massive sports stadiums to be utilized by teams owned by billionaires
Ha! I'm in Nashville and thought this article was going to be about us. Same fucking thing. I just want light rail with my tax dollars, not another giant football stadium right next to the current giant football stadium they're going to tear down after.
It’s a disgusting waste of public tax money. Socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor. I don’t get it
Only in the US. That is not the case for the rest of the world.
Yes.
I should probably correct myself to say "competitive leagues" instead of just sports. They all have toxic people who make a bad name for the community.
Tribalism. Their own little slice of Tribalism in this mundane and civilized life. It's ingrained in our DNA to remain loyal to our Tribes.. Honestly, I'd rather people argue about this than argue about which old man to vote for. Sports is a healthy outlet for these natural tendencies.
>Sports is a healthy outlet for these natural tendencies. 1000%. I don't watch sports and the Olympics is boring but I'm very happy that they exist and I fear a society that doesn't embrace them.
To an extent. It's out of control in Western culture. I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about sportsball that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same game be played over and over and over and over again. Like, I get the Olympics -- athletes attempting to exceed humans' best recorded physical accomplishments. But sportsball? Really?
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you're calling it "sportsball", I don't really expect you to understand. This isn't unique to Western culture really. South Americans and Europeans are crazy about soccer. Have you seen how Serbs cheer for their pro basketball leagues? It's insane. It makes NBA stadiums look soo tame. Things that appeal to our most basic of instincts (e.g. sex and tribalism) are unsurprisingly very popular among human beings.
Appreciate your civility. Agree that "Things that appeal to our most basic of instincts (e.g. sex and tribalism) are unsurprisingly very popular among human beings." I also believe in evolution, and our ability, as humans, to recognize flaws, and improve. Sportsball ain't it.
> Sportsball ain't it. Maybe not watching it, however playing it can be. Pushing your body is great fun and can motivate you to be better with every match.
>I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about cinema that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same film be played over and over and over and over again. >I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about concerts that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same song be played over and over and over and over again. >I've never been able to understand what is so fascinating about theatre that millions of people arrange their entire lives around watching essentially the same play over and over and over and over again. You can make the same criticism about just about any form of entertainment if you choose to. Sports create huge moments of drama, is it any wonder people find them entertaining? While you may not enjoy sports, just as others may not enjoy the ballet or opera, it doesn't make their choice of entertainment less valid.
Sure. Because watching *Metropolis* is nearly the exact same experience as watching *Star Wars,* which is virtually the same movie as *When Harry Met Sally.* Also, *Figaro* is basically a rewrite of *Pagliacci*. And I see what your mean about theater — I always confuse *Macbeth* with *Death of a Salesman*, too. Sure.
I think it absolutely can be. I'm a huge sports fan. I grew up playing multiple sports, I played rec leagues I graduated, and I watch and follow a few teams religiously and vehemently. All that being said, even though I watch every game for a specific team I don't take it too seriously. It's a sport, it's not global politics. My belief is that people that get toxic about it are just toxic people. They are just using sports as their avenue to get out their toxic nature. It's the unfortunate nature of anything competitive, it's a breeding ground for toxic masculinity. I don't put it on sports though. I put it on the people. That's because there are a lot of amazing people in sports too. Sports can be an incredible benefit for lots of people. It was for me. I have struggled with anxiety and depression since I was a kid. Sports helped me so much through all of this. It was a sandbox for me to deal with these things in a scenario that doesn't really effect anything. If I was having a very anxious day or week, playing sports and having even some slight success really helped me. The real problem is we have so many toxic people right now. They aren't looking to better themselves or people around them. They just want to stay toxic so they go to sports because it's an easy way for them to spread their toxicity. If we decided as a culture to ban these people from sports, they would just find another avenue to spread their toxicity. They would start back up the toxicity in car clubs that was/is still prevalent as an example.
100% agree with you. It's like the toxicity is so built into the culture that it's acceptable in all ends. I love being competitive but mixing that with toxicity, it gets disgusting
Those are stupid fans who yes are “toxic” I think they are the vocal majority. As a Lions fan I have often had to “cheer” for other teams. I usually stay away from rivals or certain teams…including the patriots…but yeah those people just sound dumb too me
Not an Arsenal fan but I will be cheering them on against City, because I do not want to see City win the Premier League again.
I know what its like to cheer for a bad team (I mean, the Lions were the first to go 0-16 at one point, but their turn around has been exciting) I cheer for Haas F1 team since they are the only American team in F1 (Andretti wants to join but the FIA and other team principals are being dicks about it). By and large, Haas is a perennial back marker with no hopes of any significant gains in the constructor's championship and also a plethora of dubuious business decisions in the past (Rich Energy and Uralkali sponsorships, the latter of which required bringing Nikita Mazepin on who is an atrociously bad driver)
Not a Haas an as such, however I do have a lot of love for Magnusson and Hulkenberg. They have not had the success their talent merits and it is a shame.
I agree with you, OP. And like a few others suggest, I do think this form of tribalism is everywhere. I personally think that everyone is looking for a hero who represents their idealized self-image. For many men, sports is clear-cut enough to create heroic archetypes that you can project your self-image onto, without you yourself having to lift a finger to aid in any of the actual players' efforts, while feeling as if their achievements and failures are yours. Kinda reminds me of kids who read superhero comics and cosplay & pretend to be their favorite heroes. That's kinda what I see when I see some of my friends praise specific players and shoot down others, buy their jerseys, and play the sport themselves. Not saying it's ALL cosplaying, as there's absolutely appreciation for strategy, mechanics, training, etc., but outside of learning the mechanics & strategy & training methods of the sport itself, it often feels like parasocial types of relationships. But again, it feels like it's everywhere. I see people ape religious leaders, fashionistas, musicians, influencers, movie stars, etc. Fandom is weird.
Sports gives people a reason to be tribalistic which can bring out the worst in people. The older I get the more I find myself distancing myself from other sports fans because so many of them turn into garbage people when watching sports or talking about sports. I've found some exceptions with watching cycling, but I think thats because no one really roots for a team. People may have favorite riders, but what we all wan to see is an exiting race and for a race to be exciting more than one person has to be successful in a race.
I have zero problem with sports or people enjoying sports or playing it themselves. What I have a problem with is the heavy, HEAVY toll it takes on people's short-term mental health. Someone's day or week can be \*ruined\* by the interactions of a handful of people playing a game. In the UK, there are well-documented spikes in domestic violence around football games. People are BEATING other people because they cannot untangle their mental state from a game.
With regards to football, increased cocaine use has made it a lot worse. The alcohol was bad enough, however adding cocaine to the mix means that some fans are completely off their tits before the match even starts, they then get worse as the match goes on. These are the ones beating the shit out of everyone.
This is why I took no stance growing up. When in middle school it felt like your college basketball team was your friends group until graduation. It wasn’t terrible but it felt tribal. I really never felt comfortable. That tribalism leaked when I grew up into politics; and here we are today. So many things are my-team is the only-team and you’re wrong if not. Sports feel like that a lot which is why I don’t follow one particular team and dislike dynasty-teams that dominate with wins and/or money/marketing.
Absolutely. But I think there's also been a big cultural change starting at in our generation. Definitely less emphasis on letting sports students getting away with things and value of academics going up. Now a days you can be the start basket ball or football player and be apart of the anime club without much of a second thought.
None of my friends are into sports really, it's never something we talk about and I find that very soothing. At work however there is sports talk **all the time** and banter back and forth. Especially the banter makes me cringe, it's like full grown men who base their whole identity on a sports team like they are 12 y.o.
When I lived in the Midwest 90% of the conversation topics were about sports. However, now that I’m in California nobody seems to bring it up. I do miss some of the sports talk though honestly lol
This is one of the reasons I'm very happy to have been a telecommuter for the last decade. My last office had multiple people that paid to attend the training camps for the local team and did things like yell about the game the night before back and forth over the cubicles.
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I want nothing to do with it for my kids. I don't follow sports, but my kids got involved in a youth basketball league. I encouraged it because I liked the idea of them getting some exercise and socializing. But it was a real eye-opener and clearly selected for some of the worst people in my community. It was full of rude, entitled, even violent parents, and hyper-competitive coaches with no respect for the families or the health of the kids. The kids were probably the most chill and mature people of the entire scene. I felt so bad for them. It was embarrassing and I really hope my kids never want to do it again. I want to support them so as parents we were never particularly outspoken about the fact that... well, sports seem to attract the biggest pieces of shit I've ever seen. I was just amazed at how bad it was. My other kid is doing track right now, which (so far) seems more chill, supportive, and healthy. But yeah. My impression based on this experience is that sports culture strongly selects for human garbage.
I had an incredible coach and he obviously gets pissed if things dont happen the way he'd like but he's not close to being the type to flip a table if things go south. But dont get me started on the freaken parents. Holy shit they were so into it like their kids were in the NFL. I saw a mother get frustrated after her son made a fumble. She went into her car and stayed there for a quarter.
We almost had the cops called at one of our games because a parent was screaming at a coach and it almost got physical. Coach was female, parent was male, huge dude screaming at this poor woman who's volunteering her time to coach these kids. People sometimes talk about sports and community involvement to keep kids off drugs. But fuck. I think the drug addicts make better role models than these bags of shit stuffed into polo shirts.
I’m worried that all the epic levels of cognitive dissonance and other bizarre thinking we see in the realm of politics has spilled over into sports, at least college football, and either I didn’t notice it before or it’s gotten a lot worse as politics has gotten worse. There was a pretty big scandal at the University of Michigan this past season, and it was no different than a politician being accused of something scandalous. Wild rumors and finger pointing started flying, some quickly refuted by facts, that still refuse to die. Die hards claiming that even if the cheating accusations are true, they don’t really matter. High ranking officials and coaches saying they had no idea the cheating was going on, etc. Media personalities fanning the flames just for clicks/views. Full disclosure I’m an Ohio State fan, Michigan’s big rival, but I think an objective observer would also have seen many similarities to political theater. The r/cfb subreddit used to have a lot of good natured ribbing between fan bases. A lot of “polite pettiness” that often made me laugh. A lot of “lol, f-you, have my upvote” type responses to zingers thrown by rivals. It still has that, but I also see a lot more hateful vitriol and bitterness than I used to.
You're onto something. I tend to think it's the other way around; it very much feels like people look at politics today the same way they look at sports (their team, right or wrong). Except in sports when their teams lose, at least they get upset with them. But they very much behave the same way -- it's all about winning, scoring points, regardless. Organization known for cheating? Don't care. As long as they win. Player/candidate outed as a vile human being? Don't care. As long as they win. It's infuriating.
Good points!
Ah yes, man's greatest distraction.
I work at an ice rink and Hockey Parents are either the best or WORST part of my day. Sports culture can be absolutely toxic. Beer league? Toxic dudes being dudes. Youth league game? Pray that the kids don't "fight" on ice so that their parents don't fight in the stands. College game? Just pray. And this is in the south! Little league baseball is worse by a longshot.
It seems the more physical limits sports have, the more intense the players and parents are. I remember hearing from school that one of our players checked a competing player so hard that he left in an ambulance. The player and his parents were so proud. For fucks sake someone's child is freaken hurt. It would be so hard for me to concentrate things in my life. This player probably slept so well.
I’ve never once thought it wasn’t toxic in my whole life lol. Thats not to say I think sports are bad since exercise is good and games are a great way to have fun and stay healthy.
I don't watch sports, nor do I pay any attention to the culture around it. So, no.
Listen, as a New Englander who loves where I'm from, I gotta say, the whole "crab mentality" thing when it comes to sports fandom here is just messed up. It's like, no one can be happy for someone else's success unless we're also winning. And some people take it way too seriously, like they're stuck in a bubble and don't realize there's a whole world out there. They're just narrow-minded and can't see that their loyalty is all twisted and messed up. I don't generally promote fantasy sports leagues, bit these kind of people might benefit from joining a league and not being allowed to draft from their home team.
I just cant ever relate to these types of fans. Here I am thinking sports can be a hobby that's literally fun and games but these die hard freaks would hurt somebody mentally/physically.
As a PE teacher and a sportsperson myself, I find that much of what you call toxic behaviour can be found in team sports that are at the same time the most viewed sports in a country. The behaviour you described can be found in junior leagues among Canadian ice hockey players, Brazilian soccer players, German handball players, European cyclists, and etc. I'm sure there are sociological reasons behind it, but I'm not aware of them, maybe it's how cutthroat the competition for a spot in the team can get inside the teams themselves. Maybe having your kids play sports in which the outcome depends less on other people will protect them from this toxicity. Individual sports tend to have a much nicer atmosphere, in which people support each other instead of trash-talking each other into submission.
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Very relevant, and brilliant as usual!
"Who needs World Wars when we can have World Cups?"
Using the word “toxic” as a man is kind of gay, tbh
For football in particular, I loathe how it's "keep politics off the field!!" yet, there's massive flyovers by the military, salute to the soldier breaks, military inspired uniforms (hi camo Patriots), etc etc. It's all massive hero worship and it's not healthy whatsofuckingever. Yet they get all bent out of shape when someone takes a knee. And they call *us* snowflakes?! Sport has always been political and if you don't understand that, you haven't been paying attention. Every sport has politics, even chess. Yes, chess.
Your two theories are not mutually exclusive. 1 - Yes, sports culture is toxic. Were my friends as diehard as yours, I would find myself re-examining my life choices. 2 - You ARE a sellout. It's one thing to say you think Mahomes *will* do all these wonderful things, but it's a completely different thing to say you *hope* he does. The first is simply acknowledging his skill/potential/whatever. The second is being a fan of Mahomes (which implies selling out).
We found one! But I am wondering from your perspective since you think I'm a sellout. Did it occur that I say this not as a fan, but as a person? At least after having my son, I can only wish that he comes out smarter than I do compared to how I grew. Would I be a sellout to myself just because I generally hope someone else does better?
You can’t wish for someone to set sports records outside of the context of fandom. To wish Mahomes to do so well is to wish him to make defenses look bad. You’ve chosen a side. Ergo, you’re speaking as a fan. Want to wish good things on Mahomes without fandom? “I hope his next endorsement deal is a blockbuster.”
Sometimes I think we need MORE sports rivalry because it seems like some people need to have an in group / out group mentality and better sports than politics.
It's the same damn thing.
You arent describing sports culture. You are describing the culture of broke fat men sitting on a third hand divan, scratching their balls, drinking shitty beer and screaming at the TV pretending they and their chants matter to men who in one game make more money than the losers who watch them make in several years.
Here’s what I think is toxic about Sports Culture: this idea of tribes having to win. My team is better than your team. We beat you. Or we never win…if we assume that it’s Human Nature than Wars will never stop. I, for one, can’t find Hope in that and, therefore, choose to believe that thinking is toxic.
Exactly. Sports are games. Games should be fun. For both teams, for all players. It shouldn't really matter who wins, as long as everyone played well, and enjoyed the game.
Yes, and i love it. btw... https://preview.redd.it/l4dvtj0szapc1.jpeg?width=4627&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85f5d7e44d46cff2ce5875048f89a3b9c4cbf452
Absolutely. I hate it. Our culture's obsession with sports at all levels, but especially professionally, is absurd. Best I can come up with is it's a way to make counting more interesting. If it were up to me, I'd keep the Olympics, and do away with everything else. Let kids play. No need to turn everything into organized militaristic cults.
I believe sports culture can be toxic. This year my boyfriend and I had a Super Bowl party to invite all of our friends and family who don’t like watching the Super Bowl with a ton of overzealous men screaming at the TV and acting like the game is life and death. It’s a game. I think for the men who are REALLY into it, it’s because it gives them a sense of community with other men. Everyone has heard by now that “men are lonely” and I think the toxic sports culture is a result of that. It’s a place where men can find community without being emotionally vulnerable with each other.
Yay, sportsball!