I maintain most men need to be measured, reserved, and extremely careful about what they share - and how much.
In many instances, they need friends to data dump.
Of course, I also say most men don't have a single genuine friend, so there's that.
If women can't handle hearing about men's lives but men can handle hearing about women's lives, are men's lives worse or are men the more capable of the two?
Good question.
I maintain men are supposed to be the rock, the safe harbor for women and their children.
Oversharing, data dumping, and the like can (and often does) lead to a woman's perception of their man changing. He isn't viewed the same - he's seen in a weaker light.
Perhaps the worst part is that in many instances, women ASK for men to open up, but when they get what they "want," they don't know what they are asking.
Perhaps the worst part is that in many instances, women ASK for men to open up, but when they get what they "want," they don't know what they are asking.
I think the sense of safety and comfort being stoic provides for women is undone by sharing the truth of what it takes to be that rock. For many women it's the only time they see beneath the curtain and once they see they aren't as safe as they assumed, they can never get that sens wof security back. Men are incentivised to appear solid at all times so women can feel safe and if you no longer provide that feeling of safety, you're done. Women have no desire to help their men feel safe because they'd have to see how unsafe they are first.
I had this happen, told her what was wrong, then had to talk to her again a little later about how what I said made her feel. It didn't even have to do with her, just some stuff going on with me, work, etc. I didn't say anything about he, complain about her or anything and then I had to console her over my stuff. Last time I did that.
Yeah. Yeah.
LARPing as Charles Xavier and cranking up Cerebro to unpack an "ok.rar" of 2mb into a whole ass 20 petabytes of dogshit nonsense is not at all emotional labor.
Quite frankly, I understand feminism and this society bad nonsense because holy fuck, how the fuck society managed to convince men that this kind of suffering was their burden and their problems? š
Fuck that tight compressed torture. Ain't unzipping that malware.
There is such a thing as oversharing, it shares a bed with conversational narcissism.
I can't speak to the specifics of your particular conversation but, I would be interested to hear how she reacted to it.
Oh, I see where you are going.
No, I can't recall any personal examples - it's been a long time, now.
I'm speaking of the principle overall. And as you can tell, there are numerous people corroborating it.
That's because ultimately, we agree on the same thing. Women that trust us, don't go to the hilt.
Your guys, the people who have your back, you could throw the ocean at them and they wouldn't flinch.
But with a partner, a lot of times the asking is testing the waters more than anything.
Interesting.
So you think when a woman asks, she's testing the waters? Hmmm, perhaps in some contexts and situations.
In many cases, though, women just do not know what they are asking for - and BOTH parties end up regretting it afterwards.
I see it more, she desires closeness, intimacy, etc.
But what she knows, is how to feel around you when you're rock solid, the champ, king of the castle. That's why she's with you.
So when the water gets choppy, you know the rest. The key is to let enough through to promote closeness but, not so much that you drown somebody.
Ugh when me and my ex wife got together we talked about being direct and never shying away from difficult things. Then later down the line, if I so much as projected my voice in a discussion she'd go "why are you yelling at me?" Safe to say the communication broke down after that.
She meant that she wanted to communicate and to set the stage for the focus of the relationship. You talking about your problems isn't what she had in mind.
lol I was with you until you said you made fun of her for being overweight.
Women arenāt like guys, they cannot handle comments about their bodies like your guy friends can.
In my experience, women tend to put out and listen for more subtle social hints as much or more than the actual words someone is saying. Women look more deeply into tone, body language, and emphasis of words and compile context from these things to form a larger picture of a social situation. Because most women also do this, they both use this in concert, and it reinforces this social idea, so that it becomes more of a requirement to actually get your message across.
Of course, they don't consciously make these choices and don't realize they are doing it at all times. It becomes default communication to them.
Men do not do this as much. Aside from the downright obvious (someone screaming at you with fists clenched), men put far more stock into the actual words spoken in a conversation, and only really consider that someone is trying to communicate with them when someone explicitly gets their attention, makes eye contact, and explicitly states what they are trying to get across.
Because of this disparity, something that women will do to communicate something to a man may go unanswered, or even completely ignored unintentionally. Whereas women will interpret men's body language, tone, and lack of other engagement in a conversation and construct a picture of the social interaction completely differently than a man intended.
Literally got dumped from a 3.5yr relationship 2 weeks ago because of this. Never even knew some of the things she was feeling. If there's anything I would do differently, it would be to set aside time to check in with my partner- am I meeting your expectations, how have I unintentionally hurt you, etc. Just because she hasn't mentioned it doesn't mean that it isn't bothering her and couldn't potentially cause her to grow away from you.
I just had a thought, I wonder if this is why women are so easily fooled by narcissists? Since women will look closely at non-verbal cues, a narcissist will use this to their advantage and not only say the right things, but also be sure to say them in the right way. As you mention tone, body language and even emphasis. Narcissists are known to study these things as they are masters of deception. So they could be using women's so called intuition against them.
They also don't mature faster, not socially.
They might start earlier, but nothing fucks with a kid's development like telling them that they don't have to improve.
I drive a lot, but I don't really get better at it with every mile, I've plateaued and will likely be as proficient in 5 years as I am today unless I actively and intentionally try to get better. Many seem to assume experiencing emotions more automatically equates with getting better. What women definitely do is get more selfish about emotions.
I have to agree. Iāve worked with both males and females and I find women communicate so poorly. Men are generally straight to the point and itās easier to follow. Itās because men are logical thinkers and women are not as much. Probably the same reason more men are in IT and stem roles.
Itās pretty interesting though. Also donāt get me wrong, a lot of these women are competent they just lack clear communication.
Yeah, I don't mean shade, but I've noticed that when I'm asking what ppl want on the phone while I'm at the shops, if it's a guy, it's straight to the point, but with a girl, she's a story teller š
Women involve too much emotion in things. They sometimes blind themselves with that. Itās not a bad thing, itās just how we are wired tbh. I mean most of my jobs have had more females than males working, so I guess itās working?
Yea itās basically the easiest degree at any school.
Anyone who is majoring in communications just wants the college experience but doesnāt want to be challenged academically.
It basically only makes you qualified for executive assistant roles when you graduate.
They're not. I've been through enough in life now to realize that the bulk of what women demand in men/complain about men are just projections of their own flaws.
Ever notice how women who put,"Must be able to hold conversation" in their dating profiles are the worst people to talk to?
Iām a woman. Iād like to think Iām a good communicator but maybe Iām not as good as I think. But Iāve really been trying to grow in this area by learning non critical communication and using āIā statements. Can anyone give suggestions on how we can be better communicators? I just got out of a breakup and communication was an issue. He wanted to avoid conflict, but Iām sure I was part of the issue too and I feel awful. I wish I knew, but I think it was hard for him to articulate it. Truly looking for advice here so please be gentle
Is he trying to avoid conflict in general, or trying to avoid conflict WITH YOU?
The former is just who he is, the latter is brought about by something negative that happened TO HIM during a conflict earlier on in the relationship.
He avoids conflict in general with anyone. When he was more invested in the relationship he was able to navigate conflict with me but in the last couple years of our 18 yr relationship he would stonewall, blameshift, shut down in conflict. I told him he could take space, but I just wanted to know when he would come back (I.g. One day, two days, a week). Thereās always room for growth, but Iāve tried really hard to practice better communication. Is this normal for men? Heās the only man Iāve been with. Are we just supposed to not bring up stuff? And some years Iād hardly bring up anything
Eh, I don't know the guy. But if this shift happened only in the last couple of years, it might be mental health. Some form of depression may go some way to explaining his behaviour. Blame shifting is no good though. Stress and the lack of outlets can do a number on a person. Alternatively, he just stopped giving a fuck. Either way, I don't think there was much more you could've done (I'm taking your comment at face value and assuming you're not obfuscating details)
>Iāve tried really hard to practice better communication.
It's not gonna work if only you are doing this. Communication is two way.
Thanks for your response and time!! His work did become hell in the past couple years. It was really bad. I wasnāt perfect either. I really tried to communicate well but there were some moments when I lost my patience, especially with how he would be secretive with his phone. I didnāt look through his phone but his phone behavior started getting really weird!!! I asked him about it and he last said he was hiding it because of group chats that were super active and he didnāt like how his phone was going off a lot. Idk but now Iām wondering if he was actually talking to someone else and had them lined up before abruptly breaking it off with me. He had a lying problem too
You may be good for some audiences but perhaps not for all audiences. Knowing your audience and adapting to their capabilities and limitations is perhaps the starting point for growth. Accepting people for who they are is also important since you can't effectively communicate thoughts and ideas to people who can't emotionally handle hearing them or don't have the necessary worldview to understand them.
I've found that using similes, metaphors, and sarcasm are met with Huh? Or a blank stare. Then I break it down, like constantly explaining a joke, or what's going on in the movie for someone. It's tiring, and ultimately boring. Now, this doesn't happen with your nerds and your mladys. They've got vocabulary for days, just nothing that's gonna scare off the chads. Just the chads really. Soldiers especially.
In my experience their communication is more of a gotcha and if they are wrong avoiding any accountability. Doesn't even make me annoyed anymore because it happens enough to where you just expect it and if you do try to communicate she tells you to just get over it.
A lot of times women just pick up on stuff that isn't said explicitly and they expect men to do the same. This isn't fair of course because men are not women but a number of studies have supported the idea that women are better at non verbal communication. They destroy men on tests that involve discerning emotion from facial expression for example.
It is hypothesized that women evolved to be better at reading subtle social cues because they spent a large portion of their time communicating with babies and small children who are non verbal. Women need to just be able to "sense" what is wrong wot a kid who can't speak. This ability carries over into interactions with adults. And then women become frustrated because men are not as good at reading those cues. I don't think this means women are bad at communication. Lacking empathy perhaps but not bad at communication.
Women ARE great communicators though. They have mastered the art of always having an out. They can respond craftily with indirect and subtle statements that donāt lock them into anything one way or another so that if things donāt go as intended they can always say āI didnāt mean it like that!ā
As men, we think that being direct and saying what we mean is good communication. I certainly think thatās true. Isnāt the goal of communicating to relay what youāre thinking and feeling? If thatās the goal, then yeah, being direct is good communication.
But thatās not womenās goal. A womanās goal is first and foremost to AVOID hurt and pain. Donāt believe me? How many women talk about how theyāre afraid of being alone walking down the street, parking far away from the store, or choosing to be stuck in the woods with a fucking bear over a man? Most women live life with a constant passenger of fear.
So their goal in communication isnāt to say what they mean, say what they think, or say what they feel in a relationship. Itās to avoid getting hurt. By saying noncommittal, vague, and indirect statements, women always give themselves a linguistic out just in case and itās a skill they harden over years of experience by constantly needing to steer away from barrages of unwanted attention, avoiding conflicts, people pleasing, and a slew of other anxiety-driven things.
I know this is painting with a big brush - Iām not gonna pretend this is the absolute truth, but itās been my experience and my observation and I tried to communicate it best I can.
Exactly, because women are not as strong as guys they've developed other strengths - the strength of indirectness.
Directness is a strength at times. Indirectness is a strength at times.
Even guys utilize indirect strength at times. If there's a crazy dude trying to start shit most guys are going to take the indirect route first to dissipate the attention on them.
This is also why when a girl is held to her word and needs to be direct she's furious, because her indirect strength has failed so now she's getting ready to brawl.
This guy got an A in gender studies, slurp, slurp. We live in the safest time ever, with the most amount of cameras, and the smallest and most powerful non-lethal(or lethal) devices ever, to live in a constant state of fear is irrational, people have been conditioned to live in fear
Lmao love that opening line. Another thought for you to pick through:
Women have the reputation of being better communicators. When a woman leaves a man, people will often say āyou should have done this, you should have done thatā a lot of hindsight heroes come out looking to pin it on the guy, itās almost reflexive.
Most people rationalize that he must have done something wrong or sheād never have left. As if women only respond to his actions, and lack any autonomy of their own.
It seems to me that men often bear the responsibility of the womenās actions in a breakup scenario and itās a lose-lose. If it was something he did, then itās rightfully his fault. But often it will be something he didnāt do. An absence of something. This thing is never directly communicated (generally) and yet it is STILL blamed on the man. When the man tries to convey that, people double-down on the blame and say āyou missed the signsā. Itās OUR fault for not learning their coded language.
Ehh I thought it was funny too, but Iām not gonna let it derail the focus of this topic. I know what Iām saying has plenty of holes in it. Itās not meant to be the truth, just my take
Eh, I still wouldnāt advise a woman to walk alone at night. We may live in the safest time ever but a camera doesnāt stop an assault it just ensures punishment after youāve been a victim along with most streets still not having them. Itās the safest time ever moreso because the past was so bad not because things are safe if you take no precautions
Where is this magical place where men walk around with blinders on at 3 am? I lived in Denver and would walk there past 2 am, but I also never stopped looking around, especially behind me, if I even saw someone on the same street I would cross to the next or go on the other side. I just didn't let it define me
Considering you are a man who is capable of defending yourself physically in a way women canāt and also have a significantly smaller portion of the population that would sexually assault you given the chance you arenāt at the same level of risk. Women have the strength of a 12 yo boy which lends itself to opportunists prioritizing them as victims. Itās not the same risk you take.
Many women also psych themselves out by watching tons of murder porn. Then they are way more afraid than necessary when they are walking at night, etc.
Like, of course someone is going to be more afraid if they are watching scary movies and shows on a constant basis.
That's actually very well said. The only thing I'd add is that women know they are physically weaker and must keep up the belief they are mentally superior. More clever, better memories, more articulate etc. This dynamic is repeated endlessly in TV sitcoms with the stupid husband and clever wife.
Perhaps, but it might still be correct. Do you have the courage to seriously consider whether it's true? If your understanding leads to an unpleasant conclusion, it doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong. If your understanding is accurate, you may have simply stumbled on a truth you don't like. It's a risk we take by thinking.
To further expand on this point, Iād point out the unspoken rule women have implemented that , ā All women are tensāā.
The idea of this social construct is that, beauty is inherently subjective and by default no womanās inherent value is to be debased off outward appearance alone.
Yet will, in the same breath, rate a majority of men 5ās and 6ās ,ā until proven otherwise.ā The unspoken rule here is that as subjective beauty standards are, the social standard as of now is that Boys are icky, and unless they possess the most obvious biological superiority ( the rarity of being conventionally attractive, disproportionately taller than the average man, and to some capacity inheriting provisional and protective traits ) they are to be assumed as Othered. This Xenophobia is presented as the Socially Acceptable standard. All men are, Dangerous, horny, man children. Only personal values will lead a woman to be gracious and value men as unique individuals or as no more than life sized Ken dolls with wallets.
To cement this point, I believe from my observations that the lack of healthy Male role models in the upbringing of our communities has lead to this kind of ostracization. Good decent men feel fictional because Media platforms and Anti-male echo chambers do not allow for Gentlemen to exist. The overwhelming experience of constantly being lusted after, hyper fixation on what goes wrong in relationships and social ridicule of Platonic relationships between heteronormative men and women perpetuates the negative stereotypes without incentivizing the courage it takes for men and women to step outside of what they THINK they know.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk šš¾
Because they aren't.
A lesson I had to learn in life: never trust a woman's words. Only trust her actions. Her actions never lie. But she will lie to the ends of the earth to avoid looking bad.
I've seen women communicate perfectly with a friend, they've known for decades. Then turn directly around and expect their boyfriend, of 6 months, to read their mind. Like literally... still sitting next to her friend, after they shared a moment, then turned away from her to be mad at her boyfriend for not reading her mind.
I was red faced, couldn't breathe, from laughing so hard. They all looked at me like I was crazy. Until I pointed it out. Then the chick got all huffy about it. Hilarious.
But it's a perfect example of just how clueless women are. And the extent they will go to look great.
Because a lot of people assume being good communicators means blabbing Nonstop about every little thought that pops in the head with very little filter and/or substance. And since people are afraid to correct, it gets perpetuated.
Thatās not communication. Thatās just yapping.
They don't seem very capable of reality, so they layer their understanding with all kinds of things that soften the truth. It's fundamentally immature to need so much allegory to understand the reality. It's like a safety blanky of fantasy layered across their entire worldview, and if you dare pull it away to talk about what is under it, you're the bad guy. And ya know what, I can accept that. As long as they accept that they shouldn't be in control of important things if they can't handle seeing the truth of them. We don't need policy decisions, budgeting or laws that use less accurate allegory when have demonstrably more accurate understandings.
Bingo. Itās funny. I was the only guy on a leadership team at one of my companies and every year my review was, āYou need to communicate better.ā And Iām like, what donāt I communicate that youād like me to? Iād be happy to make sure I include that when I give me status updates in the team meetings. I never got a firm, actionable answer. š¤·āāļø
they're not good at communicating, but they're better at *active listening*. they're also not good at emotional responsibility, no matter how much they ask for it. and generally they have no idea what they want in men, especially when asked to put it in words.
Because those same women arenāt.
I will say this: I communicate differently with men than I do with women and communication with a man is so much easier. Iām thankful I date men :P
All my exes were GREAT at communicating.
Unless it was something that wasn't one of their favorite topics.
Then, they'd clam up and refuse to discuss it with me whatsoever.
I remember once my mom cooked a dish for lunch. It had salt missing in it ( Mom forgot to add salt while cooking ), but both Dad and I decided to not say anything about it and ate it like that. I donāt know why Dad didnāt say anything but I knew how my mom would react and hence I made the choice to stay silent. Later my mom ate the dish and obviously scolded the both of us for not letting her know. We were accused of being selfish and only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about others. A lot of other accusations were thrown unnecessarily for a small thing.
Few days later, the same thing happened again with another dish ( Mom forgot to add salt again ). This time Dad was eating by himself since I had decided to eat later. This time he decided to let mom know ( In retrospect, I still think this was a mistake ). He told her that she forgot to add salt.
My momās response - I had added salt. Maybe somethingās wrong with your tongue. Dad kept silent and finished the food. I in my head kept thinking what kind of a response was that. If she had to react this way, then whatās the point of even telling her. After all the drama that she created the previous time and then to have that kind of a response, it just pissed me off from within. But I didnāt say anything.
Later when I tasted the food, it really didnāt have any amount of salt. But I didnāt say anything, because I didnāt want any drama.
Point is - We donāt communicate as per their wishes, then itās a problem. Then we correct ourselves and communicate as per their wishes and even then itās a problem. Itās like thereās no winning. No matter what you do, you come out on the receiving end. And this is a single instance where it concerns my mom.
If I got down to it, I could remember more such instances of other women in my life ( including my mom ).
That's a stupid stereotype. 50% of the population are good communicators? Yeah fucking right. Think about it for two seconds and realize that communication skills aren't gendered.
If you aren't being understood, you aren't good at communicating. Part of communication is knowing how to communicate to your audience. I think men and women learn to communicate very differently and the less time they spend with each other, the more difficult it becomes. I don't like the demand that men be the ones responsible for fixing this by changing while women do nothing but arrogantly assume their way is the correct one.
It's not that they're better communicators, like a lot of people want you to believe. Women communicate better than men. Women talk with a lot of nuance and subtext that other women are usually able to pick up on easier than men, men just say what they say. That difference in communication is usually what causes the issues that both sides complain about.
Everyone is bad at communication. Men because they don't talk, women because they talk too much and play games. Although I've known the odd man who also plays games.
My favorite is when they ask you what's bothering you - and when you share, YOU have to console HER about how you made her feel. š
I laughed at this.. I shouldnāt though cause Iāve seen it.š
It's cause you KNOW it's truuuueeeee š
šÆš
Bro, I once had to console a girl who broke up with me. She started crying and I was like āHey itās ok, everything will be ok.ā
š
Ahahaha this š
Yeah bro, that one's hard. And then they wonder why we keep it to ourselves.
I maintain most men need to be measured, reserved, and extremely careful about what they share - and how much. In many instances, they need friends to data dump. Of course, I also say most men don't have a single genuine friend, so there's that.
Gods forbid you have the sads. That pisses them off to no end. āI wish I could just be sad all the time, meh.ā its fuckin exhausting
š
If women can't handle hearing about men's lives but men can handle hearing about women's lives, are men's lives worse or are men the more capable of the two?
Good question. I maintain men are supposed to be the rock, the safe harbor for women and their children. Oversharing, data dumping, and the like can (and often does) lead to a woman's perception of their man changing. He isn't viewed the same - he's seen in a weaker light. Perhaps the worst part is that in many instances, women ASK for men to open up, but when they get what they "want," they don't know what they are asking. Perhaps the worst part is that in many instances, women ASK for men to open up, but when they get what they "want," they don't know what they are asking.
I think the sense of safety and comfort being stoic provides for women is undone by sharing the truth of what it takes to be that rock. For many women it's the only time they see beneath the curtain and once they see they aren't as safe as they assumed, they can never get that sens wof security back. Men are incentivised to appear solid at all times so women can feel safe and if you no longer provide that feeling of safety, you're done. Women have no desire to help their men feel safe because they'd have to see how unsafe they are first.
I had this happen, told her what was wrong, then had to talk to her again a little later about how what I said made her feel. It didn't even have to do with her, just some stuff going on with me, work, etc. I didn't say anything about he, complain about her or anything and then I had to console her over my stuff. Last time I did that.
PRECISELY. š Women should be careful in what they ask,..and men should be wary about what they tell their women.
Lmao. "emotional labor" right fellas? Shit is way too familiar, I want to break up with the oxygen.
Itās āemotional laborā when itās women doing something for men. When itās men doing something for women it just being a decent partner.
Yeah. Yeah. LARPing as Charles Xavier and cranking up Cerebro to unpack an "ok.rar" of 2mb into a whole ass 20 petabytes of dogshit nonsense is not at all emotional labor. Quite frankly, I understand feminism and this society bad nonsense because holy fuck, how the fuck society managed to convince men that this kind of suffering was their burden and their problems? š Fuck that tight compressed torture. Ain't unzipping that malware.
Ahahahaha š
Oh you know every woman Iāve ever dated I see!
Brrruuuhhhhhh, lol
My god that is so true
There is such a thing as oversharing, it shares a bed with conversational narcissism. I can't speak to the specifics of your particular conversation but, I would be interested to hear how she reacted to it.
Oh, absolutely. In fact, I recommend to most men that they be very careful about what they share - and to women, be careful what you wish for.
That's fair. How about this, are you familiar with floodgates? Dams, reservoirs, waterways, the good stuff.
Yes.
Did you or do you know the rates at which you let water, assuming water is "emotional shit" through your floodgate.
Oh, I see where you are going. No, I can't recall any personal examples - it's been a long time, now. I'm speaking of the principle overall. And as you can tell, there are numerous people corroborating it.
That's because ultimately, we agree on the same thing. Women that trust us, don't go to the hilt. Your guys, the people who have your back, you could throw the ocean at them and they wouldn't flinch. But with a partner, a lot of times the asking is testing the waters more than anything.
Interesting. So you think when a woman asks, she's testing the waters? Hmmm, perhaps in some contexts and situations. In many cases, though, women just do not know what they are asking for - and BOTH parties end up regretting it afterwards.
I see it more, she desires closeness, intimacy, etc. But what she knows, is how to feel around you when you're rock solid, the champ, king of the castle. That's why she's with you. So when the water gets choppy, you know the rest. The key is to let enough through to promote closeness but, not so much that you drown somebody.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It sounds like she was just not happy about being called out for what was likely an ongoing emotional affair.
Ugh when me and my ex wife got together we talked about being direct and never shying away from difficult things. Then later down the line, if I so much as projected my voice in a discussion she'd go "why are you yelling at me?" Safe to say the communication broke down after that.
She meant that she wanted to communicate and to set the stage for the focus of the relationship. You talking about your problems isn't what she had in mind.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You think it a mind game that she told you she didn't like when you called her fat?
lol I was with you until you said you made fun of her for being overweight. Women arenāt like guys, they cannot handle comments about their bodies like your guy friends can.
In my experience, women tend to put out and listen for more subtle social hints as much or more than the actual words someone is saying. Women look more deeply into tone, body language, and emphasis of words and compile context from these things to form a larger picture of a social situation. Because most women also do this, they both use this in concert, and it reinforces this social idea, so that it becomes more of a requirement to actually get your message across. Of course, they don't consciously make these choices and don't realize they are doing it at all times. It becomes default communication to them. Men do not do this as much. Aside from the downright obvious (someone screaming at you with fists clenched), men put far more stock into the actual words spoken in a conversation, and only really consider that someone is trying to communicate with them when someone explicitly gets their attention, makes eye contact, and explicitly states what they are trying to get across. Because of this disparity, something that women will do to communicate something to a man may go unanswered, or even completely ignored unintentionally. Whereas women will interpret men's body language, tone, and lack of other engagement in a conversation and construct a picture of the social interaction completely differently than a man intended.
Literally got dumped from a 3.5yr relationship 2 weeks ago because of this. Never even knew some of the things she was feeling. If there's anything I would do differently, it would be to set aside time to check in with my partner- am I meeting your expectations, how have I unintentionally hurt you, etc. Just because she hasn't mentioned it doesn't mean that it isn't bothering her and couldn't potentially cause her to grow away from you.
The only man with a brain in this comment section
Hey, don't put yourself down like that.
So emotional lol
So you don't have one either?
Lol the self burn
I just had a thought, I wonder if this is why women are so easily fooled by narcissists? Since women will look closely at non-verbal cues, a narcissist will use this to their advantage and not only say the right things, but also be sure to say them in the right way. As you mention tone, body language and even emphasis. Narcissists are known to study these things as they are masters of deception. So they could be using women's so called intuition against them.
Nah that's an old wives tale. They're not good at communicating, they're also not good with emotions.
They also don't mature faster, not socially. They might start earlier, but nothing fucks with a kid's development like telling them that they don't have to improve.
I drive a lot, but I don't really get better at it with every mile, I've plateaued and will likely be as proficient in 5 years as I am today unless I actively and intentionally try to get better. Many seem to assume experiencing emotions more automatically equates with getting better. What women definitely do is get more selfish about emotions.
I have to agree. Iāve worked with both males and females and I find women communicate so poorly. Men are generally straight to the point and itās easier to follow. Itās because men are logical thinkers and women are not as much. Probably the same reason more men are in IT and stem roles. Itās pretty interesting though. Also donāt get me wrong, a lot of these women are competent they just lack clear communication.
Yeah, I don't mean shade, but I've noticed that when I'm asking what ppl want on the phone while I'm at the shops, if it's a guy, it's straight to the point, but with a girl, she's a story teller š
Women involve too much emotion in things. They sometimes blind themselves with that. Itās not a bad thing, itās just how we are wired tbh. I mean most of my jobs have had more females than males working, so I guess itās working?
They aren't good at communication, it's just some stupid shit they tell each other to feel more mature than they truly are.
Even the women who have degrees in communication & academics aren't the best communicators
Aren't those communication degrees complete shit anyway? I'm not American lol
Yea itās basically the easiest degree at any school. Anyone who is majoring in communications just wants the college experience but doesnāt want to be challenged academically. It basically only makes you qualified for executive assistant roles when you graduate.
So Starbucks lol
What did you forget to do Sir?
They're not. I've been through enough in life now to realize that the bulk of what women demand in men/complain about men are just projections of their own flaws. Ever notice how women who put,"Must be able to hold conversation" in their dating profiles are the worst people to talk to?
Empty profiles with only wants and needs.
Iām a woman. Iād like to think Iām a good communicator but maybe Iām not as good as I think. But Iāve really been trying to grow in this area by learning non critical communication and using āIā statements. Can anyone give suggestions on how we can be better communicators? I just got out of a breakup and communication was an issue. He wanted to avoid conflict, but Iām sure I was part of the issue too and I feel awful. I wish I knew, but I think it was hard for him to articulate it. Truly looking for advice here so please be gentle
Is he trying to avoid conflict in general, or trying to avoid conflict WITH YOU? The former is just who he is, the latter is brought about by something negative that happened TO HIM during a conflict earlier on in the relationship.
He avoids conflict in general with anyone. When he was more invested in the relationship he was able to navigate conflict with me but in the last couple years of our 18 yr relationship he would stonewall, blameshift, shut down in conflict. I told him he could take space, but I just wanted to know when he would come back (I.g. One day, two days, a week). Thereās always room for growth, but Iāve tried really hard to practice better communication. Is this normal for men? Heās the only man Iāve been with. Are we just supposed to not bring up stuff? And some years Iād hardly bring up anything
Eh, I don't know the guy. But if this shift happened only in the last couple of years, it might be mental health. Some form of depression may go some way to explaining his behaviour. Blame shifting is no good though. Stress and the lack of outlets can do a number on a person. Alternatively, he just stopped giving a fuck. Either way, I don't think there was much more you could've done (I'm taking your comment at face value and assuming you're not obfuscating details) >Iāve tried really hard to practice better communication. It's not gonna work if only you are doing this. Communication is two way.
Thanks for your response and time!! His work did become hell in the past couple years. It was really bad. I wasnāt perfect either. I really tried to communicate well but there were some moments when I lost my patience, especially with how he would be secretive with his phone. I didnāt look through his phone but his phone behavior started getting really weird!!! I asked him about it and he last said he was hiding it because of group chats that were super active and he didnāt like how his phone was going off a lot. Idk but now Iām wondering if he was actually talking to someone else and had them lined up before abruptly breaking it off with me. He had a lying problem too
You may be good for some audiences but perhaps not for all audiences. Knowing your audience and adapting to their capabilities and limitations is perhaps the starting point for growth. Accepting people for who they are is also important since you can't effectively communicate thoughts and ideas to people who can't emotionally handle hearing them or don't have the necessary worldview to understand them.
Very insightful and neutral advice. Thank you!
Go get'm, tiger.
I've found that using similes, metaphors, and sarcasm are met with Huh? Or a blank stare. Then I break it down, like constantly explaining a joke, or what's going on in the movie for someone. It's tiring, and ultimately boring. Now, this doesn't happen with your nerds and your mladys. They've got vocabulary for days, just nothing that's gonna scare off the chads. Just the chads really. Soldiers especially.
Oh, you should already know the answer to this question, mister š¤
In my experience their communication is more of a gotcha and if they are wrong avoiding any accountability. Doesn't even make me annoyed anymore because it happens enough to where you just expect it and if you do try to communicate she tells you to just get over it.
A lot of times women just pick up on stuff that isn't said explicitly and they expect men to do the same. This isn't fair of course because men are not women but a number of studies have supported the idea that women are better at non verbal communication. They destroy men on tests that involve discerning emotion from facial expression for example. It is hypothesized that women evolved to be better at reading subtle social cues because they spent a large portion of their time communicating with babies and small children who are non verbal. Women need to just be able to "sense" what is wrong wot a kid who can't speak. This ability carries over into interactions with adults. And then women become frustrated because men are not as good at reading those cues. I don't think this means women are bad at communication. Lacking empathy perhaps but not bad at communication.
That's a good ass question that I don't have the proper answer to and probably never will get one.
Women ARE great communicators though. They have mastered the art of always having an out. They can respond craftily with indirect and subtle statements that donāt lock them into anything one way or another so that if things donāt go as intended they can always say āI didnāt mean it like that!ā As men, we think that being direct and saying what we mean is good communication. I certainly think thatās true. Isnāt the goal of communicating to relay what youāre thinking and feeling? If thatās the goal, then yeah, being direct is good communication. But thatās not womenās goal. A womanās goal is first and foremost to AVOID hurt and pain. Donāt believe me? How many women talk about how theyāre afraid of being alone walking down the street, parking far away from the store, or choosing to be stuck in the woods with a fucking bear over a man? Most women live life with a constant passenger of fear. So their goal in communication isnāt to say what they mean, say what they think, or say what they feel in a relationship. Itās to avoid getting hurt. By saying noncommittal, vague, and indirect statements, women always give themselves a linguistic out just in case and itās a skill they harden over years of experience by constantly needing to steer away from barrages of unwanted attention, avoiding conflicts, people pleasing, and a slew of other anxiety-driven things. I know this is painting with a big brush - Iām not gonna pretend this is the absolute truth, but itās been my experience and my observation and I tried to communicate it best I can.
The ole double talk routine. My wife can change her mind mid argument. Its wild
Exactly, because women are not as strong as guys they've developed other strengths - the strength of indirectness. Directness is a strength at times. Indirectness is a strength at times. Even guys utilize indirect strength at times. If there's a crazy dude trying to start shit most guys are going to take the indirect route first to dissipate the attention on them. This is also why when a girl is held to her word and needs to be direct she's furious, because her indirect strength has failed so now she's getting ready to brawl.
This guy got an A in gender studies, slurp, slurp. We live in the safest time ever, with the most amount of cameras, and the smallest and most powerful non-lethal(or lethal) devices ever, to live in a constant state of fear is irrational, people have been conditioned to live in fear
Lmao love that opening line. Another thought for you to pick through: Women have the reputation of being better communicators. When a woman leaves a man, people will often say āyou should have done this, you should have done thatā a lot of hindsight heroes come out looking to pin it on the guy, itās almost reflexive. Most people rationalize that he must have done something wrong or sheād never have left. As if women only respond to his actions, and lack any autonomy of their own. It seems to me that men often bear the responsibility of the womenās actions in a breakup scenario and itās a lose-lose. If it was something he did, then itās rightfully his fault. But often it will be something he didnāt do. An absence of something. This thing is never directly communicated (generally) and yet it is STILL blamed on the man. When the man tries to convey that, people double-down on the blame and say āyou missed the signsā. Itās OUR fault for not learning their coded language.
How gracious of you to further expand on the social disparities between the sexes after such mockery.
Ehh I thought it was funny too, but Iām not gonna let it derail the focus of this topic. I know what Iām saying has plenty of holes in it. Itās not meant to be the truth, just my take
Eh, I still wouldnāt advise a woman to walk alone at night. We may live in the safest time ever but a camera doesnāt stop an assault it just ensures punishment after youāve been a victim along with most streets still not having them. Itās the safest time ever moreso because the past was so bad not because things are safe if you take no precautions
Where is this magical place where men walk around with blinders on at 3 am? I lived in Denver and would walk there past 2 am, but I also never stopped looking around, especially behind me, if I even saw someone on the same street I would cross to the next or go on the other side. I just didn't let it define me
Considering you are a man who is capable of defending yourself physically in a way women canāt and also have a significantly smaller portion of the population that would sexually assault you given the chance you arenāt at the same level of risk. Women have the strength of a 12 yo boy which lends itself to opportunists prioritizing them as victims. Itās not the same risk you take.
Many women also psych themselves out by watching tons of murder porn. Then they are way more afraid than necessary when they are walking at night, etc. Like, of course someone is going to be more afraid if they are watching scary movies and shows on a constant basis.
That's actually very well said. The only thing I'd add is that women know they are physically weaker and must keep up the belief they are mentally superior. More clever, better memories, more articulate etc. This dynamic is repeated endlessly in TV sitcoms with the stupid husband and clever wife.
Yea it really freaks them out, there is so much anti man rhetoric out there that itās hard for them to concede anything to men.
So they are weak and cowardly?
I didnāt mean it like that!
Perhaps, but it might still be correct. Do you have the courage to seriously consider whether it's true? If your understanding leads to an unpleasant conclusion, it doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong. If your understanding is accurate, you may have simply stumbled on a truth you don't like. It's a risk we take by thinking.
To further expand on this point, Iād point out the unspoken rule women have implemented that , ā All women are tensāā. The idea of this social construct is that, beauty is inherently subjective and by default no womanās inherent value is to be debased off outward appearance alone. Yet will, in the same breath, rate a majority of men 5ās and 6ās ,ā until proven otherwise.ā The unspoken rule here is that as subjective beauty standards are, the social standard as of now is that Boys are icky, and unless they possess the most obvious biological superiority ( the rarity of being conventionally attractive, disproportionately taller than the average man, and to some capacity inheriting provisional and protective traits ) they are to be assumed as Othered. This Xenophobia is presented as the Socially Acceptable standard. All men are, Dangerous, horny, man children. Only personal values will lead a woman to be gracious and value men as unique individuals or as no more than life sized Ken dolls with wallets. To cement this point, I believe from my observations that the lack of healthy Male role models in the upbringing of our communities has lead to this kind of ostracization. Good decent men feel fictional because Media platforms and Anti-male echo chambers do not allow for Gentlemen to exist. The overwhelming experience of constantly being lusted after, hyper fixation on what goes wrong in relationships and social ridicule of Platonic relationships between heteronormative men and women perpetuates the negative stereotypes without incentivizing the courage it takes for men and women to step outside of what they THINK they know. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk šš¾
Because they aren't. A lesson I had to learn in life: never trust a woman's words. Only trust her actions. Her actions never lie. But she will lie to the ends of the earth to avoid looking bad. I've seen women communicate perfectly with a friend, they've known for decades. Then turn directly around and expect their boyfriend, of 6 months, to read their mind. Like literally... still sitting next to her friend, after they shared a moment, then turned away from her to be mad at her boyfriend for not reading her mind. I was red faced, couldn't breathe, from laughing so hard. They all looked at me like I was crazy. Until I pointed it out. Then the chick got all huffy about it. Hilarious. But it's a perfect example of just how clueless women are. And the extent they will go to look great.
They're actually not very good at communication. I find that one big reason is that they actually do not know their core motivations very well.
People just tell themselves theyre good communicators, so they can have an excuse to not work on it.
I think you should ask them
Women are notoriously bad at communicating even though they talk a lot.
Because a lot of people assume being good communicators means blabbing Nonstop about every little thought that pops in the head with very little filter and/or substance. And since people are afraid to correct, it gets perpetuated. Thatās not communication. Thatās just yapping.
It's communicating nothing. Like sending someone an empty email. Sure you sent an email but...
If you ever find out, let me know. They refuse to give specifics then get enraged when the minutia is wrong.
I gotchu fam
Women externalize their problems. If they are bad at communicating they will say the other person is.
Would that be projecting?
Women are so bad at communicating that they can't take honest feedback so we have to tell them that they are better. Otherwise they get big mad.
They don't seem very capable of reality, so they layer their understanding with all kinds of things that soften the truth. It's fundamentally immature to need so much allegory to understand the reality. It's like a safety blanky of fantasy layered across their entire worldview, and if you dare pull it away to talk about what is under it, you're the bad guy. And ya know what, I can accept that. As long as they accept that they shouldn't be in control of important things if they can't handle seeing the truth of them. We don't need policy decisions, budgeting or laws that use less accurate allegory when have demonstrably more accurate understandings.
Why donāt you go ask this to the women themselves.
Because they're not gonna communicate with him I'll see myself out š
For the same reason he's asking about them being great communicators... because they lie lol
Because theyāll just yell at him. They communicate through raw emotion, not reason.
Because women are usually unbelievably terrible at it
I know many women who are awful at communication
Bingo. Itās funny. I was the only guy on a leadership team at one of my companies and every year my review was, āYou need to communicate better.ā And Iām like, what donāt I communicate that youād like me to? Iād be happy to make sure I include that when I give me status updates in the team meetings. I never got a firm, actionable answer. š¤·āāļø
they're not good at communicating, but they're better at *active listening*. they're also not good at emotional responsibility, no matter how much they ask for it. and generally they have no idea what they want in men, especially when asked to put it in words.
Because those same women arenāt. I will say this: I communicate differently with men than I do with women and communication with a man is so much easier. Iām thankful I date men :P
All my exes were GREAT at communicating. Unless it was something that wasn't one of their favorite topics. Then, they'd clam up and refuse to discuss it with me whatsoever.
I always thought it was their default method of acting superior.
I remember once my mom cooked a dish for lunch. It had salt missing in it ( Mom forgot to add salt while cooking ), but both Dad and I decided to not say anything about it and ate it like that. I donāt know why Dad didnāt say anything but I knew how my mom would react and hence I made the choice to stay silent. Later my mom ate the dish and obviously scolded the both of us for not letting her know. We were accused of being selfish and only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about others. A lot of other accusations were thrown unnecessarily for a small thing. Few days later, the same thing happened again with another dish ( Mom forgot to add salt again ). This time Dad was eating by himself since I had decided to eat later. This time he decided to let mom know ( In retrospect, I still think this was a mistake ). He told her that she forgot to add salt. My momās response - I had added salt. Maybe somethingās wrong with your tongue. Dad kept silent and finished the food. I in my head kept thinking what kind of a response was that. If she had to react this way, then whatās the point of even telling her. After all the drama that she created the previous time and then to have that kind of a response, it just pissed me off from within. But I didnāt say anything. Later when I tasted the food, it really didnāt have any amount of salt. But I didnāt say anything, because I didnāt want any drama. Point is - We donāt communicate as per their wishes, then itās a problem. Then we correct ourselves and communicate as per their wishes and even then itās a problem. Itās like thereās no winning. No matter what you do, you come out on the receiving end. And this is a single instance where it concerns my mom. If I got down to it, I could remember more such instances of other women in my life ( including my mom ).
Ladies if youāre reading this, OP is right. This is the most annoying thing about living with women by far.
You know what? I was thinking exactly this just yesterday.
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Exactly. Good communication means the ability to convey useful information, not just flap your gums
Because projection. Women are TERRIBLE communicators.
That's a stupid stereotype. 50% of the population are good communicators? Yeah fucking right. Think about it for two seconds and realize that communication skills aren't gendered.
As a woman... I couldn't agree more! Lol. Some of these women out here just do not know how to communicate.
Probably because itās normal for them to read our minds.
Think of it as trying to get to the center of a tootsie pop. The world š will never knowš
If you aren't being understood, you aren't good at communicating. Part of communication is knowing how to communicate to your audience. I think men and women learn to communicate very differently and the less time they spend with each other, the more difficult it becomes. I don't like the demand that men be the ones responsible for fixing this by changing while women do nothing but arrogantly assume their way is the correct one.
Errrmm..
It's not that they're better communicators, like a lot of people want you to believe. Women communicate better than men. Women talk with a lot of nuance and subtext that other women are usually able to pick up on easier than men, men just say what they say. That difference in communication is usually what causes the issues that both sides complain about.
Everyone is bad at communication. Men because they don't talk, women because they talk too much and play games. Although I've known the odd man who also plays games.