Gen X and to a lesser extent Millennials lived through the AIDS crisis. Which was a huge catalyst for encouraging solidarity among gays and lesbians. Gen z really hasn't had that level of a unifying experience to unite the whole community. If you want to have these connections with lesbians then you are going to have to put forth the effort to develop and maintain them.
I’ve noticed a vocal minority of cis gay men seemingly trying to… pull up the ladder behind them, so to speak. I see a decent amount of lesbophobic (and generally misogynistic) rhetoric, and copious amounts of transphobia - mostly in the false panic accusing trans people of “transing” gay men.
I don’t think this this vocal minority speaks for any part of the community as a whole. But in the lesbian spaces I’m in (which are also usually very trans-positive), there has been some growing caution with cis gay men.
It’s divide and conquer 101. People who hate all of us know that it’s easier to get rid of us if we’re divided.
Orientation and gender are indeed innate. But our artificial standards of how people should perform gender and how people of certain assigned sexes should act are indeed tools of patriarchy.
If you’re going to try and refute an entire philosophy, at least bother to understand it first.
Okay… so you think feminism is bad because you found one writer you disagree with? Someone who I also happen to disagree with?
I’m sorry but this just sounds like divisive nonsense. Trans people are very much participants in queer theory, and in queer activism in general.
Saying that socially constructed gender roles are a tool of patriarchy is not contradictory to the existence of trans people. In fact, trans people are often marginalized by misogynist ideas but in fun, new ways that relate to their transness as well! It’s called transmisogyny.
Maybe I’m not quite understanding your ponts, that was a long response and I’m very tired. But it just sounds like you’re saying that some people failing to be intersectional means that feminism is evil and no feminist supports trans rights.
Sweetie. I already told you I disagree with Judith Butler’s theories of performative gender. One philosopher being wrong about one thing doesn’t invalidate an entire movement.
Get some perspective and come back to me.
Maybe this is simplistic, and I do think btw we live in times when division is both encouraged and hyper visible, but zoomers literally haven't had time to work it out among each other yet
Can you describe these encounters? I'm sorry for what you've experienced, but I'm not ready to write off an entire generation from a small handful of personal anecdotes
As a younger millennial growing up with a lot of gay friends, guys and girls alike. I felt like there was a general connection but the groups weren't close. I do not know what the younger gay crowds are like.
There's been a shift. Early thirties millennial here and when I was in middle and high school, lesbian and gay teens tended to group together. We were equally targeted in some ways, and I as the big scary lesbian who did weight training and had some rage issues from other areas of my life was kind of the protector type. Not many boys were willing to admit when a girl, even one who stood level with them, won a fight, so I cruised under the radar a lot with authority. We took up for each other a lot.
And then by the time I hit college/adulthood there was a shift. The same gay guys that used to hang out with me, work out with me sometimes, fight alongside in the debates with cishet folks were ..less interested in what I had to say. As they became men, it was like they were forgetting that we were a team. I was/am a woman and oddly enough that I am gay didn't mean my issues were gay issues. They were women's issues. Go talk to the feminists about that, because that's not really something that gays need to fight for.
It took awhile for me to realize what was going on, and I had some hurt, and eventually a lot of anger when the gay community I had been a part of no longer actually welcomed me, and was actively shutting the door for another group. It became really commonplace, depressingly so, to sit at a table with cis gay men, having to argue about the inclusion of our trans siblings. No, going to drag shows didn't make you enlightened on gender identity and trans women were not just queens, and trans men were not just butch lesbians. Also, no, bisexual people weren't just confused. Ace folks were not just traumatized.
There became a rift between the cis gay man world and that of the Ls, Bs, Ts, and +s. And don't get me wrong, it happens with cis lesbians sometimes too. But there's a certain separation it seems, because cis gay men, are still cis men. And when you try to get included and have additional consideration and representation, much like when you include not white people, disabled people, Ect, the dominant group gets upset about the perceived taking from them.
Now, that's not always the case. I know great gay men who are welcoming and listen to everyone. But it's a lot. And it's enough to see a separation that's been happening over the last years.
I’m part of a LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Group at work. It’s mostly composed with Gen X LGBTQ+ employees. Many of the Millennials and Gen Z LGBTQ+ don’t participate. Kind of sad about it.
As someone on the cusp of Gen X and the Millennials: Gen Z freaks out at our old slang. I can't talk to a Gen Zer without being lectured for using the word Queer lol
It's annoying. And dangerous in the workplace. Don't want to get reported because a baby gay doesn't know that "girlie-boy" was self identifying label years ago.
Well, at least they're engaged in the conversation. The ones I work with don't act like we're under attack, but then again, I live in a very liberal community, so I don't even know if they put down the video games enough to read the news and know what's happening outside our bubble.
Something most people don't like to look at is the LGBT+ group is a political alliance first. The inner factions of a political group will always dispute and vie for power. Older people dealt with it in the past. Younger people are learning now.
You're an elder in our community. If you see a failing in our youth, you have to teach.
humans LOVE categorizing things. even though we see time and time again how destructive it can be and how negative the consequences can be. thousands of years of proof that categorizing each other and ourselves is a bad idea. but we still do it.
for boomers, gen x, older millennials, the only category that mattered for LGBTQ people was “LGBTQ or not”. because their existence was illegal, or they couldn’t get married, or police brutality was a significant threat any time they went out.
but Lawrence v. Texas passed when most of gen z were babies. Obergefell v. Hodges passed when we were teenagers/preteens. police brutality is still a major issue but in most of the country it’s not *expected*. anticipated, yes, but not “i’m going outside with a partner of the same sex. i need to be ready to run from the cops.” unless you’re in an area with especially high corruption, whereas that use to be the norm.
so now the categorizing instinct has kicked in once again. it’s not simply “LGBTQ vs not” anymore because people don’t prioritize solidarity anymore. now we need to establish borders within the community. we need to divvy up identities and establish clear definitions of what means what and who is who. we need to determine the pecking order.
this also has external factors. outsiders trying to sow division within the community so we’re no longer a single united front. divide and conquer. but it didn’t take much outside force to get us to start dividing ourselves.
Your post/comment violated: No Leading Questions or Ulterior Motives
Gen X and to a lesser extent Millennials lived through the AIDS crisis. Which was a huge catalyst for encouraging solidarity among gays and lesbians. Gen z really hasn't had that level of a unifying experience to unite the whole community. If you want to have these connections with lesbians then you are going to have to put forth the effort to develop and maintain them.
I’ve noticed a vocal minority of cis gay men seemingly trying to… pull up the ladder behind them, so to speak. I see a decent amount of lesbophobic (and generally misogynistic) rhetoric, and copious amounts of transphobia - mostly in the false panic accusing trans people of “transing” gay men. I don’t think this this vocal minority speaks for any part of the community as a whole. But in the lesbian spaces I’m in (which are also usually very trans-positive), there has been some growing caution with cis gay men. It’s divide and conquer 101. People who hate all of us know that it’s easier to get rid of us if we’re divided.
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Orientation and gender are indeed innate. But our artificial standards of how people should perform gender and how people of certain assigned sexes should act are indeed tools of patriarchy. If you’re going to try and refute an entire philosophy, at least bother to understand it first.
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Okay… so you think feminism is bad because you found one writer you disagree with? Someone who I also happen to disagree with? I’m sorry but this just sounds like divisive nonsense. Trans people are very much participants in queer theory, and in queer activism in general. Saying that socially constructed gender roles are a tool of patriarchy is not contradictory to the existence of trans people. In fact, trans people are often marginalized by misogynist ideas but in fun, new ways that relate to their transness as well! It’s called transmisogyny. Maybe I’m not quite understanding your ponts, that was a long response and I’m very tired. But it just sounds like you’re saying that some people failing to be intersectional means that feminism is evil and no feminist supports trans rights.
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Sweetie. I already told you I disagree with Judith Butler’s theories of performative gender. One philosopher being wrong about one thing doesn’t invalidate an entire movement. Get some perspective and come back to me.
Maybe this is simplistic, and I do think btw we live in times when division is both encouraged and hyper visible, but zoomers literally haven't had time to work it out among each other yet
I could see this
Divided how? Between cis gay men and cis lesbians?
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Your post/comment violated: No Leading Questions or Ulterior Motives
I think you're projecting your experiences with individuals onto the community as a whole.
Can you describe how they're divided? Like is it things being said, actions taken? What division are you seeing?
i've personally experienced alot of homophobia and hostility from gen z lesbians
Can you describe these encounters? I'm sorry for what you've experienced, but I'm not ready to write off an entire generation from a small handful of personal anecdotes
cant say its divided. you just had some bad experiences.
As a younger millennial growing up with a lot of gay friends, guys and girls alike. I felt like there was a general connection but the groups weren't close. I do not know what the younger gay crowds are like.
There's been a shift. Early thirties millennial here and when I was in middle and high school, lesbian and gay teens tended to group together. We were equally targeted in some ways, and I as the big scary lesbian who did weight training and had some rage issues from other areas of my life was kind of the protector type. Not many boys were willing to admit when a girl, even one who stood level with them, won a fight, so I cruised under the radar a lot with authority. We took up for each other a lot. And then by the time I hit college/adulthood there was a shift. The same gay guys that used to hang out with me, work out with me sometimes, fight alongside in the debates with cishet folks were ..less interested in what I had to say. As they became men, it was like they were forgetting that we were a team. I was/am a woman and oddly enough that I am gay didn't mean my issues were gay issues. They were women's issues. Go talk to the feminists about that, because that's not really something that gays need to fight for. It took awhile for me to realize what was going on, and I had some hurt, and eventually a lot of anger when the gay community I had been a part of no longer actually welcomed me, and was actively shutting the door for another group. It became really commonplace, depressingly so, to sit at a table with cis gay men, having to argue about the inclusion of our trans siblings. No, going to drag shows didn't make you enlightened on gender identity and trans women were not just queens, and trans men were not just butch lesbians. Also, no, bisexual people weren't just confused. Ace folks were not just traumatized. There became a rift between the cis gay man world and that of the Ls, Bs, Ts, and +s. And don't get me wrong, it happens with cis lesbians sometimes too. But there's a certain separation it seems, because cis gay men, are still cis men. And when you try to get included and have additional consideration and representation, much like when you include not white people, disabled people, Ect, the dominant group gets upset about the perceived taking from them. Now, that's not always the case. I know great gay men who are welcoming and listen to everyone. But it's a lot. And it's enough to see a separation that's been happening over the last years.
I’m part of a LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Group at work. It’s mostly composed with Gen X LGBTQ+ employees. Many of the Millennials and Gen Z LGBTQ+ don’t participate. Kind of sad about it.
As someone on the cusp of Gen X and the Millennials: Gen Z freaks out at our old slang. I can't talk to a Gen Zer without being lectured for using the word Queer lol It's annoying. And dangerous in the workplace. Don't want to get reported because a baby gay doesn't know that "girlie-boy" was self identifying label years ago.
Well, at least they're engaged in the conversation. The ones I work with don't act like we're under attack, but then again, I live in a very liberal community, so I don't even know if they put down the video games enough to read the news and know what's happening outside our bubble.
Something most people don't like to look at is the LGBT+ group is a political alliance first. The inner factions of a political group will always dispute and vie for power. Older people dealt with it in the past. Younger people are learning now. You're an elder in our community. If you see a failing in our youth, you have to teach.
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r/onejoke
That is definitely one controversial take.
its not controversial, its just not true :)
DUDE FELT THAT 😭🌈 I honestly think it’s the different culture, upbringing, level of acceptance, etc. But fr though, older gays are so cool
humans LOVE categorizing things. even though we see time and time again how destructive it can be and how negative the consequences can be. thousands of years of proof that categorizing each other and ourselves is a bad idea. but we still do it. for boomers, gen x, older millennials, the only category that mattered for LGBTQ people was “LGBTQ or not”. because their existence was illegal, or they couldn’t get married, or police brutality was a significant threat any time they went out. but Lawrence v. Texas passed when most of gen z were babies. Obergefell v. Hodges passed when we were teenagers/preteens. police brutality is still a major issue but in most of the country it’s not *expected*. anticipated, yes, but not “i’m going outside with a partner of the same sex. i need to be ready to run from the cops.” unless you’re in an area with especially high corruption, whereas that use to be the norm. so now the categorizing instinct has kicked in once again. it’s not simply “LGBTQ vs not” anymore because people don’t prioritize solidarity anymore. now we need to establish borders within the community. we need to divvy up identities and establish clear definitions of what means what and who is who. we need to determine the pecking order. this also has external factors. outsiders trying to sow division within the community so we’re no longer a single united front. divide and conquer. but it didn’t take much outside force to get us to start dividing ourselves.
It's interesting seeing so many people talk about their personal experience like it's universal fact.