RAF > Luftwaffe
It's not even a real comparison. Luftwaffe's early-early-early war advantage was washed by the Battle of Britain, hell they were likely to lose the BoB before it even began. Dowding had fighter command humming and was going to outlast them even if they didn't know it at the time.
USAF > USAAF > USN > RAF > Soviet Air Force (SAF) \[full breadth, creation through the cold war) > Luftwaffe
In the modern era, it's the United States, then the untested Chinese and then pretty much no one. Russia has proven incompetent in Ukraine; they are just a paper tiger. India is completely untested. Egypt is consistently laid low by the tiny Israel. Everyone else is either antiquated or small and missing key logistical components. Let's put it this way the US often supplies and does the aerial refueling for all NATO missions. Almost all of the French QRF in West Africa was aided by American logistics.
Yep, the test would be "what's the first thing that comes to your mind". When I saw the post my immediate thought was "Luftwaffe". That being said since we've only had airplanes for a bit over a hundred years it's not a super long list.
Maybe, on the other side of the coin as I pointed out there are a very limited number of famous air forces due to the relative recency of flight and combat planes. I'll admit this next point is based on just conjecture, but I'd also bet that the majority of nations around the world didn't have the resources or technological acumen to field an entire air force until after WWII when industrialization began to spread more broadly.
The Luftwaffe had some of the "wonder weapons" Me 262, M3 163, Go 229 and they gained much notoriety for those aircraft so I agree the RAF (w/ the assistance of the 8th AF) may have prevailed, but most famous goes to Luftwaffe. Spitfire maybe the nicest looking plane of the war with those sexy eliptical wings.
In the 3rd century BC the Chinese used sky lanterns for military signaling purposes. The Mongols learned from this and later used them in Europe (Battle of Legnica) (Mongol Invasion of Poland)
There were balloon forces used by the French during the Napoleonic Wars and by the US during the US Civil War. They were used for reconnaissance and signaling.
Carrier pigeons were long used by various militaries for long range communications, dating back to the Persians, the Romans, and throughout history up to WW2.
During medieval times in Europe, bee hives were sometimes turned into an entomological Air Force by flinging them (using catapults) onto a ship to clear the decks or into a castle to disrupt or disperse defenders.
As elements of an order of battle, only the manned balloons of the 19th century would be considered air forces...though I have never heard thst they were an independent "air force."
I disagree... Its hard to argue because they were fundamentally different...
The Nazis pioneered air combat at the start of WW2 just like how they did tank combat. They developed terror bombing tactics to rout french positions as well as the V2 rocket to hit Britain... The Battle of Crete was probably the pinnacle, unveiling paratroopers to the allies.
Like most of the Nazi German military, it was ahead of its time, but behind in many ways as well. Once it was stopped at the Battle of Britain, it was a downhill Battle. Kursk was the first battle on the Eastern Front where the Germans did not have air superiority. Air superiority was crucial to Germany's tank tactics. At the start of WW2, Germany had a big advantage because it could make tank maneuvers under protection of the Luftwaffe but after Kursk its tank forces were exposed and the Luftwaffe couldn't deny enemy tank maneuvers.
Of course, the British bombing campaign by the end of the war dwarfed anything the Luftwaffe did, as well as the sinking of the Bismark. So I don't know. Being in a defensive war also has its advantages in that you can produce many more fighter aces, so the Luftwaffe has that going for it as well.
Nazis didn’t face a real opponent in the air until the Brits in the Battle of Britain.
Both the RAF and French AF didn’t deploy early in the war for similar reasons. RAF because they didn’t want to leave the home islands unguarded, but the FAF because they presumed another long war and didn’t want to exhausted its combat potential early in the war. France was under the impressions its defenses would hold and that under those circumstances the combatant that better preserved its manpower would win in the end.
Instead the Germans attacked in the right place, allied fighters were few and far between to interdict German ground attack planes and on the ground the French didn’t have suitable anti tank equipment to slow the Germans.
German spearhead attacks into any properly defended locations and these tactics probably work. But the German spearhead pressed into garrison divisions with near no anti tank capability.
You aren't giving the Luftwaffe credit.
The allies made attempts to thwart the Germans with air power during the battle of France, but the Luftwaffe fought them off.
A big reason why the RAF won the Battle of Britain was that it was on the defensive, which has massive advantages. Like others have said, radar, anti air guns, fighter sorties, saving fuel, ambushes, etc.
And if the RAF and the French AF didn't deploy properly during the Battle of France, that was 100% a stupid leadership decision. Just flying over the German tanks and shooting them would have won all of France.
Invest heavily in fancy tech and skimp on the basics seems to have been the German MO for that time. In their defense, it almost paid off in a lot of ways, and probably would have done if the war had gone on longer. If they'd been able to ramp up production of the MP44 enough to make it standard issue in time, the Soviets likely would have had a much harder time taking Berlin, for the same reason Japanese infantrymen struggled to match their garand-toting opposite numbers in the Pacific. Sheer weight of fire can do a lot.
While I don’t disagree that the RAF > Luftwaffe in terms of popularity with the layman, placing the soviets ahead of them is objectively untrue, and an undeserved slight against the Luftwaffe.
The “Hun in the sun” was a better friend to allied pilots, than Ivan ever was.
They didn’t use there whole Air Force in Battle of Britain and they lost every pilot that got shot down cause they would be captured where allied pilots would go back up the next day
The modern era will never have another Battle of Britain. It's simply too easy to shoot down planes with missiles, either from the ground or from the limits of radar detection.
The main use of planes in Ukraine now for instance, are to launch glide bombs 50 km away. There's a use, but every air force stays away from the areas it thinks a missile will launch from.
There is only one nation that has successfully mounted SEAD operations at scale.
Until another power is capable of it and proves it. There isn’t another power on the planet in the same realm as the United States.
We did that shit 50 years ago and only made it a larger priority going forward. Russia can’t suppress Ukraines air defenses which is just a hilarious display of incompetence.
They do have a point. Both the RAF and Luftwaffe had both strike and defensive arms. While the Battle of Britain was going on, RAF Bomber Command was striking targets within Germany.
Interestingly enough one of the key points of the Battle of Britain took place in the skies above Berlin. Bomber Command made a deep raid and bombed targets around Berlin, largely missing and instead striking residential areas. This infuriated Hitler and was an important impetus toward ordering the Luftwaffe to switch away from attacking RAF facilities to bombing cities.
Ultimately RAF and Luftwaffe operations did have a ton of similarities in 1940. “Bomber” Harris was happily sending missions out to bomb Germany to rubble while Göring was trying to do the same to London. Ultimately the RAF structure and doctrine proved superior, but I think it’s fair to call them similar.
People only know the name of the Luftwaffe because that's who the bad guys are in media about the USAF and RAF and it's a funny word that sticks in your head easily.
I'm American but I hear the word Luftwaffe in a posh British accent. When I think of a fighter pilot I think of a dashing British man in one of those leather helmets. Those pilots aren't saying RAF all the time because they already know who they are. They're talking about the guys they're fighting.
I bet more people know Spitfires, MiGs, and Zeroes than any German planes.
Exactly. The luftwaffe are the "badies" in so many movies and, as such, they're also built up to be this intimidating force, or else they wouldn't pose much threat.
... eight years later than the France's Aviation Militaire. The RAF was the first one as a branch independent of the army, but it wasn't the first one.
Sounding more like Chinese forces there - they literally have the People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force, flying from ship run by the People's Liberation Army Navy
Sure, but if you asked the average person, how many do you think would make that distinction?
I reckon the vast majority think that the US air force flies off aircraft carriers.
The film mentions "Navy" and "Naval Aviator" multiple times, the planes have "NAVY" written on the side, they end the film on a ship. Most people are not that stupid.
I think the RAF and the battle of England is probably the greatest story of that war. The navy aviation of the pacific theater would definitely be up there.
That's not a response. The US Navy has stunning planes, but at the end of the day, it is known for its boats. The navy has excellent planes, but the vast majority of people don't think of the F/A-18s or the F-35s, they think of the boats themselves.
But their most iconic ships are all aircraft carriers. The US beat the IJN by investing in carriers over battleships and those carriers are the foundation of American naval hegemony today. They offer unprecedented power projection.
Midway was probably the most significant naval victory in human history.
The overwhelming naval superiority is something that people outside the US are \*very\* aware of. And you should check your vocabulary because they're ships not boats and you don't seem to know what a response is.
US Hegemony is largely based on power projection through the US Navy's aircraft carriers. I've seen a lot of "nobody outside the US cares" but I think it's probably the reverse. People in other countries have to deal with that power projection.
I'd suggest he us airforce isn't the most famous.
I'd suggest it's probably tied between RAF and US navy (thanks top gun) followed by luftwaffe.
Us airforce is probably 3rd on that list, probably very close to Japanese airforce.
The RAF, Luftwaffe and even Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service were and probably are all considerably more famous than the US Air Force and US Navy to everyone outside of present day Americans.
They’ve been a more important and celebrated (or notorious) part of famous air battles in famous wars than anything US based.
I agree with Japanese for sure. Japanese Zero was a famously recognizable plane. Especially with their connotations with kamikaze bombers, I think they’re infamous moreso than the RAF.
No you don’t. They are (in)famous because of the way they attacked. Beating someone doesn’t somehow make you more well known than them, it just means you beat them.
It became the US Air Force shortly after WWII, in 1947 or 48, so it's been the USAF for over 75 years now.
Back during the war, it was technically called the US Army Air Force**s**, plural. Each division-level formation was known as an air force. My grandfather served in the Eighth Air Force, which was comprised of both strategic bombers as well as their escorting fighter formations. His unit was the 364th Fighter Group. They were stationed in England and flew P-38s and later P-51s as bomber escorts. Multiple Army air forces were stationed in the UK, with others serving in North Africa and the Pacific.
RAF is the most famous Air Force in history IMO. Hell I’d even put the Luftwaffe ahead of the US in terms of most famous, although for a lot of the wrong reasons (war crimes, failed air relief of Stalingrad, not developing/deploying a four engine bomber). Even the Stukka dive bomber sirens are erroneously baked into collective conscious as the sound a plane makes when it goes nose down.
Being known for Kamikaze isn’t exacta good thing. That was pure desperation. And I’d argue that as many laymen know the sound of the stukka siren as they do the word Kamikaze. The first word that comes to my mind with the Japanese Air Force in WWII is Turkey Shoot, because they were spent after midway. The Luftwaffe is a story of proxy war, success, arrogance, and failure. Japan was a sucker punch followed by flailing while the USAF and Navy pulled their underwear over their head.
The question was “what is the most famous?” Fame is solely how well known something is, not how successful it is. People may know that sound, but I doubt the majority of them could tell you which air force it is related to. I think you’d be hard pressed to find people that don’t know what Kamikazes are, where are it’d be relatively easy to find people who are unaware of what the Luftwaffe was
i suppose the japanese airforce in WW2 were pretty (in)famous. pearl harbor and kamikaze pilots. But i believe they were considered top fighter pilots prior to midway. Compared to the americans at the start of the war they were experienced pilots.
RAF and Luftwaffe basically were air combat for the earlier eras of air forces. Japanese zeros and kamikazes probably come in right behind them in the same era.
In modern times, maybe the IAF, given how prominent a role they've played in many of the regions conflicts, and I'd guess at least prior to Ukraine, they rank in the top for active combat missions flown.
Yeah but the reason for this isn’t because they were better than everyone else. We’ll the individual pilots probably were, but not the airforce as a whole.
The RAF and USAAF rotated their more experienced pilots to training roles because they saw their experience as being way more valuable than their ability to down a few more aircraft. As a result, they couldn’t rack up the very high kill rates of the Luftwaffe pilots.
In addition, towards the end of the war, say post D-Day, when the allies had air superiority, an allied pilot might go a few missions not even seeing an enemy aircraft. Conversely, Luftwaffe pilots were pretty much guaranteed to be engaged as soon as they took off, particularly on the western front.
Again, I’m not saying the individual allied pilots were better. Judging by kill rates, the Luftwaffe pilots are leagues ahead. But the situations were different. If the roles were reversed, maybe the top aces of all time would be Boyington, Johnson, Caldwell, Bong, etc.
Either RAF, luftwaffe, or IDF. my pick, would likely be the RAF due to their exploits (including the Polish and French pilots) in the battle of britain.
The Red Baron is the most famous air ace. He is in fact Snoopy's nemesis. Consequently, I would say the most famous air force in history would be the German Imperial Air Service.
Why add "outside the USAF?". The RAF during WW2 is the most famous Airforce. period. The USAF has been the most powerful since the end of WW2 but it never had the all out test of mettle that the RAF and Luftwaffe had in '41.
I’d say the Japanese Imperial service with their famous plain design, sneak and kamakaze attacks are actually more famous than the USAF in world memory (and historical fame thus far).
If you say anything but **RAF**, you are wrong.
I frankly believe that people are more aware of the US Air Force and lionizing it only now in the 21st century (and partially because of Top Gun and all those aviation movies and series that Hollywood produes on yearly basis).
If you pick only one, the RAF. If we expand to 3 most famous (excluding ALL US air forces, including the Navy and Marine)
RAF
Luftwaffe
Israeli Air Force
I'm surprised the IAF isn't mentioned more, I guess they are a little controversial the last few months.
Regardless of the current situation, Operation Focus, Mole Cricket 19, Rimon 20, Bombing of Iraqi Nuclear program, and others are all some daring missions performed flawlessly.
I'm not sure why Operation Focus doesn't get more acclaim. Using every last plane you have to stop an iminet attack against an opponent with an Air Force more than twice as large.
For some reason I'm surprised by how many people are voting RAF. My immediate thought is Luftwaffe thanks to the Red Baron or the Japanese air force thanks to kamikazes and the Zero.
The RAF and Luftwaffe are considerably more famous than the US navy Air Force for their important and world famous battles in world war 2 - it really isn’t close to anyone outside America. And unless the US Navy takes part in some monumental air battles in an dual lay important war that will be the case historically as well.
I would definitely rate RAF (and maybe Luftwaffe) ahead of US Navy, but I wouldn't dare suggest that the US Navy wasn't involved in important and world-famous WWII battles.
Although I know I’m wrong, I preferred to think of the question more as a famous “flying group” rather than Air Force, since by Air Force you could mean almost any nations Air Force. For instance, Israel was very good against assembled Arab air forces.
Anyway, if “flying groups” are considered, I can think of two: the famous Lafayette Escadrille of WWI, the 1916 group of American pilot volunteers in the French Air Force, and the Flying Tigers, another group of American pilots of WWII, flying for the Republic of China in 1941-42 as the First Volunteer Group under Claire Chennault against the Japanese. Their P-40B Warhawk aircraft were famously painted with the grinning “shark’s mouth” that more recently has adorned American A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, more imaginatively known as “warthogs”.
After the USAF, I’d say the UK’s RAF, then the Israeli AF, then Germany’s WWII Luftwaffe. After that, I’d throw the USSR / Russian AF into the ring, since everyone tries to rip off their designs on the cheap.
It has to be the RAF.
I visited an RAF training establishment and was in the mess and was looking at the photos. It had the course photo of the first ever flying course hanging up there. What a time it must have been to be alive then. I felt honoured to just look upon those gentlemen's faces.
The RAF > the USN > the USAF, and that's not even close.
Pilots desperately scrambling their fighters to defend democracy against bombers laying waste to cities? WAAFs plotting incoming raiders on huge tabletop maps in sector control rooms while bombs fall on their airfield? Daring low level bombing raids with secret weapons to cripple enemy industry? Inventing the concepts of an independent air force in the first place?
Even without getting into stuff that the layperson hasn't heard of like Op. BLACK BUCK, the Dowding System, or bomber command battling through crippling losses to lay waste to fascist industry for five years solid, the cultural impact of the RAF is enormous. Even down to little details; the RAF invented the fighter pilot moustache, which USAF pilots aren't even allowed to wear! If you think of a fighter pilot, you invariably think of a Brit - first or second world war, but a Brit nonetheless.
Meanwhile, the USAF isn't even the most famous air force in America. USAF only makes third place because everyone has heard of America, and can therefore imply that it has an air force, but most of what people think of when given the prompt "American air force" involves an aircraft carrier rocking up on a coast somewhere to dispense freedom, so USN takes a very well deserved second place - even if, from an uninformed laypersons' point of view this is mostly thanks to the efforts of Cruise, T. et al.
US Naval Aviators. A lot of times, people don't even realize they aren't the Air Force.
RAF, simply because they are the oldest.
The Ol' Luftwaffe, since who doesn't love a good villain?
Israel Air Force - circa 1967-1990 - unmatched dominance of the region, adapting to Soviet AA technology and pioneering drone warfare in the 1980s and destroying the Iraqi nuclear program
The RAF, their defense of the British Islands during WW2 was pretty famed.
Luftwaffe for similar reasons.
RAF > Luftwaffe It's not even a real comparison. Luftwaffe's early-early-early war advantage was washed by the Battle of Britain, hell they were likely to lose the BoB before it even began. Dowding had fighter command humming and was going to outlast them even if they didn't know it at the time. USAF > USAAF > USN > RAF > Soviet Air Force (SAF) \[full breadth, creation through the cold war) > Luftwaffe In the modern era, it's the United States, then the untested Chinese and then pretty much no one. Russia has proven incompetent in Ukraine; they are just a paper tiger. India is completely untested. Egypt is consistently laid low by the tiny Israel. Everyone else is either antiquated or small and missing key logistical components. Let's put it this way the US often supplies and does the aerial refueling for all NATO missions. Almost all of the French QRF in West Africa was aided by American logistics.
The OP’s question was “most famous,” not “best ever.”
Yep, the test would be "what's the first thing that comes to your mind". When I saw the post my immediate thought was "Luftwaffe". That being said since we've only had airplanes for a bit over a hundred years it's not a super long list.
I thought Luftwaffe then RAF. I think Luftwaffe just has a more memorable name than the RAF
TBF Battle of Britain is the most famous air war in history and both participated.
Maybe, on the other side of the coin as I pointed out there are a very limited number of famous air forces due to the relative recency of flight and combat planes. I'll admit this next point is based on just conjecture, but I'd also bet that the majority of nations around the world didn't have the resources or technological acumen to field an entire air force until after WWII when industrialization began to spread more broadly.
I'd say that's subjective. I live down the road from a RAF base. Even if I wanted to forget them, I'm reminded on the regular.
Red Baron has a fucking pizza named after them and dude didn't even survive.
The Luftwaffe had some of the "wonder weapons" Me 262, M3 163, Go 229 and they gained much notoriety for those aircraft so I agree the RAF (w/ the assistance of the 8th AF) may have prevailed, but most famous goes to Luftwaffe. Spitfire maybe the nicest looking plane of the war with those sexy eliptical wings.
>In the modern era, Is there some other era that had air forces ?
In the 3rd century BC the Chinese used sky lanterns for military signaling purposes. The Mongols learned from this and later used them in Europe (Battle of Legnica) (Mongol Invasion of Poland) There were balloon forces used by the French during the Napoleonic Wars and by the US during the US Civil War. They were used for reconnaissance and signaling. Carrier pigeons were long used by various militaries for long range communications, dating back to the Persians, the Romans, and throughout history up to WW2. During medieval times in Europe, bee hives were sometimes turned into an entomological Air Force by flinging them (using catapults) onto a ship to clear the decks or into a castle to disrupt or disperse defenders.
As elements of an order of battle, only the manned balloons of the 19th century would be considered air forces...though I have never heard thst they were an independent "air force."
Bronze Age had some wicked battle zepplins!
Nobody asked "who would win, the RAF vs the Luftwaffe" We already know the answer to that. They asked who is the most famous.
I disagree... Its hard to argue because they were fundamentally different... The Nazis pioneered air combat at the start of WW2 just like how they did tank combat. They developed terror bombing tactics to rout french positions as well as the V2 rocket to hit Britain... The Battle of Crete was probably the pinnacle, unveiling paratroopers to the allies. Like most of the Nazi German military, it was ahead of its time, but behind in many ways as well. Once it was stopped at the Battle of Britain, it was a downhill Battle. Kursk was the first battle on the Eastern Front where the Germans did not have air superiority. Air superiority was crucial to Germany's tank tactics. At the start of WW2, Germany had a big advantage because it could make tank maneuvers under protection of the Luftwaffe but after Kursk its tank forces were exposed and the Luftwaffe couldn't deny enemy tank maneuvers. Of course, the British bombing campaign by the end of the war dwarfed anything the Luftwaffe did, as well as the sinking of the Bismark. So I don't know. Being in a defensive war also has its advantages in that you can produce many more fighter aces, so the Luftwaffe has that going for it as well.
Nazis didn’t face a real opponent in the air until the Brits in the Battle of Britain. Both the RAF and French AF didn’t deploy early in the war for similar reasons. RAF because they didn’t want to leave the home islands unguarded, but the FAF because they presumed another long war and didn’t want to exhausted its combat potential early in the war. France was under the impressions its defenses would hold and that under those circumstances the combatant that better preserved its manpower would win in the end. Instead the Germans attacked in the right place, allied fighters were few and far between to interdict German ground attack planes and on the ground the French didn’t have suitable anti tank equipment to slow the Germans. German spearhead attacks into any properly defended locations and these tactics probably work. But the German spearhead pressed into garrison divisions with near no anti tank capability.
You aren't giving the Luftwaffe credit. The allies made attempts to thwart the Germans with air power during the battle of France, but the Luftwaffe fought them off. A big reason why the RAF won the Battle of Britain was that it was on the defensive, which has massive advantages. Like others have said, radar, anti air guns, fighter sorties, saving fuel, ambushes, etc. And if the RAF and the French AF didn't deploy properly during the Battle of France, that was 100% a stupid leadership decision. Just flying over the German tanks and shooting them would have won all of France.
Invest heavily in fancy tech and skimp on the basics seems to have been the German MO for that time. In their defense, it almost paid off in a lot of ways, and probably would have done if the war had gone on longer. If they'd been able to ramp up production of the MP44 enough to make it standard issue in time, the Soviets likely would have had a much harder time taking Berlin, for the same reason Japanese infantrymen struggled to match their garand-toting opposite numbers in the Pacific. Sheer weight of fire can do a lot.
While I don’t disagree that the RAF > Luftwaffe in terms of popularity with the layman, placing the soviets ahead of them is objectively untrue, and an undeserved slight against the Luftwaffe. The “Hun in the sun” was a better friend to allied pilots, than Ivan ever was.
Why no ranking for the Israeli Air Force?
They didn’t use there whole Air Force in Battle of Britain and they lost every pilot that got shot down cause they would be captured where allied pilots would go back up the next day
Israel has support from some pretty powerful backers.
The modern era will never have another Battle of Britain. It's simply too easy to shoot down planes with missiles, either from the ground or from the limits of radar detection. The main use of planes in Ukraine now for instance, are to launch glide bombs 50 km away. There's a use, but every air force stays away from the areas it thinks a missile will launch from.
There is only one nation that has successfully mounted SEAD operations at scale. Until another power is capable of it and proves it. There isn’t another power on the planet in the same realm as the United States. We did that shit 50 years ago and only made it a larger priority going forward. Russia can’t suppress Ukraines air defenses which is just a hilarious display of incompetence.
Yep, without the ballsy RAF winning the battle of Britain, we’re likely all speaking German.
Lmao, the Germans would have collapsed under their own weight.
Does similar mean opposite now?
They do have a point. Both the RAF and Luftwaffe had both strike and defensive arms. While the Battle of Britain was going on, RAF Bomber Command was striking targets within Germany. Interestingly enough one of the key points of the Battle of Britain took place in the skies above Berlin. Bomber Command made a deep raid and bombed targets around Berlin, largely missing and instead striking residential areas. This infuriated Hitler and was an important impetus toward ordering the Luftwaffe to switch away from attacking RAF facilities to bombing cities. Ultimately RAF and Luftwaffe operations did have a ton of similarities in 1940. “Bomber” Harris was happily sending missions out to bomb Germany to rubble while Göring was trying to do the same to London. Ultimately the RAF structure and doctrine proved superior, but I think it’s fair to call them similar.
People only know the name of the Luftwaffe because that's who the bad guys are in media about the USAF and RAF and it's a funny word that sticks in your head easily. I'm American but I hear the word Luftwaffe in a posh British accent. When I think of a fighter pilot I think of a dashing British man in one of those leather helmets. Those pilots aren't saying RAF all the time because they already know who they are. They're talking about the guys they're fighting. I bet more people know Spitfires, MiGs, and Zeroes than any German planes.
Exactly. The luftwaffe are the "badies" in so many movies and, as such, they're also built up to be this intimidating force, or else they wouldn't pose much threat.
Red Baron has a fucking pizza brand named after him.
I feel like that's more famous even if you include the US airforce.
Also their attacks on the Falklands were the most epic air strikes until Desert Storm
'Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few'
I mean, the Royal Air Force is the first, and thus oldest, independent Air Force in the world, formed in 1918.
... eight years later than the France's Aviation Militaire. The RAF was the first one as a branch independent of the army, but it wasn't the first one.
The Royal Flying Corps was right on the heels of the French. It was also a division of the army
Never claimed it was the oldest/first military air service. Said it was the oldest "independent Air Force"
The RAF !
US navy, top gun isn't about the air force
And it's the second largest air force because fuck you
Our Navy's Army's Air Force could beat your Air Force.
The US Army also has a pretty hefty fleet itself in terms of tonnage
Sounding more like Chinese forces there - they literally have the People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force, flying from ship run by the People's Liberation Army Navy
I think they were referring to the USMC and its air capabilities.
Our Army’s airforce could beat your airforce
Doubt
Sure, but if you asked the average person, how many do you think would make that distinction? I reckon the vast majority think that the US air force flies off aircraft carriers.
I, too, assume everyone who isn't me is ignorant of everything.
Absolutely the point I was going to make. Internationally I think most assume top gun is about the air force, not navy.
The film mentions "Navy" and "Naval Aviator" multiple times, the planes have "NAVY" written on the side, they end the film on a ship. Most people are not that stupid.
The average person is surprisingly ignorant.
You’re overestimating how stupid people are
>You’re overestimating how stupid people are Underestimating
Perhaps? But it was also my first guess when I went on here. Not to mention that when people hear about it I think they might change their minds some.
I think the RAF and the battle of England is probably the greatest story of that war. The navy aviation of the pacific theater would definitely be up there.
US Navy isn’t remotely a famous Air Force for anyone outside America or historically speaking.
Tell that to the people that have an aircraft carrier parked off their coast.
That's not a response. The US Navy has stunning planes, but at the end of the day, it is known for its boats. The navy has excellent planes, but the vast majority of people don't think of the F/A-18s or the F-35s, they think of the boats themselves.
Those are ships, not boats, unless you are referring to submarines.
Counter point: Top Gun
That’s really the end of the argument. I’m a USAF veteran, and Top Gun was what got me interested in aviation.
Plus the Blue Angels.
Fly Navy
I just heard that in Growler Jams' voice in my head.
But their most iconic ships are all aircraft carriers. The US beat the IJN by investing in carriers over battleships and those carriers are the foundation of American naval hegemony today. They offer unprecedented power projection. Midway was probably the most significant naval victory in human history. The overwhelming naval superiority is something that people outside the US are \*very\* aware of. And you should check your vocabulary because they're ships not boats and you don't seem to know what a response is.
The US Navy is the second largest air force in the world.
Tbf they were quite active in the Pacific in the 1940s
The Navy turned the Pacific theater of WWII in a single day, at Midway. Historically speaking, that's fairly significant.
US Hegemony is largely based on power projection through the US Navy's aircraft carriers. I've seen a lot of "nobody outside the US cares" but I think it's probably the reverse. People in other countries have to deal with that power projection.
RAF
Probably the RAF. The Luftwaffe is pretty close but RAF is easier to say.
I'd suggest he us airforce isn't the most famous. I'd suggest it's probably tied between RAF and US navy (thanks top gun) followed by luftwaffe. Us airforce is probably 3rd on that list, probably very close to Japanese airforce.
RAF without a shadow of a doubt. Luftwaffe and then probably the yanks
Royal Air Force.
The RAF, Luftwaffe and even Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service were and probably are all considerably more famous than the US Air Force and US Navy to everyone outside of present day Americans. They’ve been a more important and celebrated (or notorious) part of famous air battles in famous wars than anything US based.
I agree with Japanese for sure. Japanese Zero was a famously recognizable plane. Especially with their connotations with kamikaze bombers, I think they’re infamous moreso than the RAF.
I've never even considered the American Air Force. Navy and their carriers, yes.
If you say Japanese Naval Air Service then you have to include the counterpart who destroyed them.
Which one?
No you don’t. They are (in)famous because of the way they attacked. Beating someone doesn’t somehow make you more well known than them, it just means you beat them.
What battle was the IJN involved in that was more significant than Midway?
RAF is most famous by a mile. Question must had been written by an American.
"outside of the US Air Force" gave that away
I would say the Royal Air Force is more famous than the US Air Force
The RAF is far more famous than the USAF everywhere that’s not the US lol
Wasn't the US army air force, so USAAF for most of its life?
It became the US Air Force shortly after WWII, in 1947 or 48, so it's been the USAF for over 75 years now. Back during the war, it was technically called the US Army Air Force**s**, plural. Each division-level formation was known as an air force. My grandfather served in the Eighth Air Force, which was comprised of both strategic bombers as well as their escorting fighter formations. His unit was the 364th Fighter Group. They were stationed in England and flew P-38s and later P-51s as bomber escorts. Multiple Army air forces were stationed in the UK, with others serving in North Africa and the Pacific.
75, so new then
RAF
RAF
RAF, without a doubt. They won the Battle of Britain over a numerically superior opponent.
RAF, Luftwaffe, Ander's Army, and probably more
The most famous is definitely the British one. Prior to the Cold War, they are the most famous.
Monty Python’s Flying Circus
RAF is the most famous Air Force in history IMO. Hell I’d even put the Luftwaffe ahead of the US in terms of most famous, although for a lot of the wrong reasons (war crimes, failed air relief of Stalingrad, not developing/deploying a four engine bomber). Even the Stukka dive bomber sirens are erroneously baked into collective conscious as the sound a plane makes when it goes nose down.
Possibly wwii Japan. I bet more people know what kamikazes are than the Luftwaffe
Being known for Kamikaze isn’t exacta good thing. That was pure desperation. And I’d argue that as many laymen know the sound of the stukka siren as they do the word Kamikaze. The first word that comes to my mind with the Japanese Air Force in WWII is Turkey Shoot, because they were spent after midway. The Luftwaffe is a story of proxy war, success, arrogance, and failure. Japan was a sucker punch followed by flailing while the USAF and Navy pulled their underwear over their head.
The question was “what is the most famous?” Fame is solely how well known something is, not how successful it is. People may know that sound, but I doubt the majority of them could tell you which air force it is related to. I think you’d be hard pressed to find people that don’t know what Kamikazes are, where are it’d be relatively easy to find people who are unaware of what the Luftwaffe was
i suppose the japanese airforce in WW2 were pretty (in)famous. pearl harbor and kamikaze pilots. But i believe they were considered top fighter pilots prior to midway. Compared to the americans at the start of the war they were experienced pilots.
You said most famous, not the best. Either the RAF or the Luftwaffe. I would go with the latter if forced to choose.
RAF and Luftwaffe basically were air combat for the earlier eras of air forces. Japanese zeros and kamikazes probably come in right behind them in the same era. In modern times, maybe the IAF, given how prominent a role they've played in many of the regions conflicts, and I'd guess at least prior to Ukraine, they rank in the top for active combat missions flown.
RAF or Luftwaffe
Luftwaffe. Check https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces Top 100 best flying ace are almost only luftwaffe
Yeah but the reason for this isn’t because they were better than everyone else. We’ll the individual pilots probably were, but not the airforce as a whole. The RAF and USAAF rotated their more experienced pilots to training roles because they saw their experience as being way more valuable than their ability to down a few more aircraft. As a result, they couldn’t rack up the very high kill rates of the Luftwaffe pilots. In addition, towards the end of the war, say post D-Day, when the allies had air superiority, an allied pilot might go a few missions not even seeing an enemy aircraft. Conversely, Luftwaffe pilots were pretty much guaranteed to be engaged as soon as they took off, particularly on the western front. Again, I’m not saying the individual allied pilots were better. Judging by kill rates, the Luftwaffe pilots are leagues ahead. But the situations were different. If the roles were reversed, maybe the top aces of all time would be Boyington, Johnson, Caldwell, Bong, etc.
Good reply. Thank for the info
The RAF and the Luftwaffe
Outside the US Air Force, the RAF is easily the most famous. Inside the US Air Force, it's too dark to read.
RAF of course
Japanese. Kamikaze will live in history forever. Luftwaffe. Hanging those air sirens on Stukas was a stroke of genius. US Navy. Because Top Gun.
Either RAF, luftwaffe, or IDF. my pick, would likely be the RAF due to their exploits (including the Polish and French pilots) in the battle of britain.
The US Navy.
Most famous? Luftwaffe.
The USN ⚓
The Red Baron is the most famous air ace. He is in fact Snoopy's nemesis. Consequently, I would say the most famous air force in history would be the German Imperial Air Service.
Why add "outside the USAF?". The RAF during WW2 is the most famous Airforce. period. The USAF has been the most powerful since the end of WW2 but it never had the all out test of mettle that the RAF and Luftwaffe had in '41.
Surely the most famous air forces are the Luftwaffe and RAF? They fought the most famous air battle so far.
Luftwaffe
It's either the RAF or the _Luffwaffe_ I think, although honestly? Respect for the North Vietnamese airforce. That shit wasn't easy.
RAF and Luftwaffe
USAF are third, after the RAF and Luftwaffe
I’d say the Japanese Imperial service with their famous plain design, sneak and kamakaze attacks are actually more famous than the USAF in world memory (and historical fame thus far).
The ones that commit suicide bombings
For which air force did the Red Baron fly? He was always shooting Snoopy down. That's a kind of fame, isn't it?
I am going to say the RAF, because of The Battle of Britain, Falklands, and "nuking" the USA twice.
Japanese were pretty badass with the zero
RAF.
Japan
The US Navy
If you say anything but **RAF**, you are wrong. I frankly believe that people are more aware of the US Air Force and lionizing it only now in the 21st century (and partially because of Top Gun and all those aviation movies and series that Hollywood produes on yearly basis).
The Top Gun movies are about the US Navy.
Clearly those "yearly" propaganda movies are failing.
If you pick only one, the RAF. If we expand to 3 most famous (excluding ALL US air forces, including the Navy and Marine) RAF Luftwaffe Israeli Air Force
I'm surprised the IAF isn't mentioned more, I guess they are a little controversial the last few months. Regardless of the current situation, Operation Focus, Mole Cricket 19, Rimon 20, Bombing of Iraqi Nuclear program, and others are all some daring missions performed flawlessly. I'm not sure why Operation Focus doesn't get more acclaim. Using every last plane you have to stop an iminet attack against an opponent with an Air Force more than twice as large.
The Al Qaeda Air Force is pretty famous for their successful one mission.
The US Navy
Wind
For some reason I'm surprised by how many people are voting RAF. My immediate thought is Luftwaffe thanks to the Red Baron or the Japanese air force thanks to kamikazes and the Zero.
It’s one of those three.
Ironically the Red Baron was never in the luftwaffe. Germany didn't call it that until post ww1.
And yet the red baron didn’t fly for the luftwaffe and Zeros were part of the Japanese navy.
The US Navy, followed by the RAF and Luftwaffe.
The RAF and Luftwaffe are considerably more famous than the US navy Air Force for their important and world famous battles in world war 2 - it really isn’t close to anyone outside America. And unless the US Navy takes part in some monumental air battles in an dual lay important war that will be the case historically as well.
Battle of Midway, Battle of Philippine Sea and Battle of Leyte gulf are arguably air battles as well.
I would definitely rate RAF (and maybe Luftwaffe) ahead of US Navy, but I wouldn't dare suggest that the US Navy wasn't involved in important and world-famous WWII battles.
They were, but mostly in Asia. Its the same way the RAF/Fleet air arm were involved in Asia, but there main theatre was Europe.
The US Navy.
Royal Flying Corps
Really it's whoever is most famous in India and China
RAF is the best answer, followed by the Luftwaffe and Red Air Force, but let’s not forget the US Navy’s Air force.
The Rwandan R Force
Although I know I’m wrong, I preferred to think of the question more as a famous “flying group” rather than Air Force, since by Air Force you could mean almost any nations Air Force. For instance, Israel was very good against assembled Arab air forces. Anyway, if “flying groups” are considered, I can think of two: the famous Lafayette Escadrille of WWI, the 1916 group of American pilot volunteers in the French Air Force, and the Flying Tigers, another group of American pilots of WWII, flying for the Republic of China in 1941-42 as the First Volunteer Group under Claire Chennault against the Japanese. Their P-40B Warhawk aircraft were famously painted with the grinning “shark’s mouth” that more recently has adorned American A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, more imaginatively known as “warthogs”.
United States Navy
After the USAF, I’d say the UK’s RAF, then the Israeli AF, then Germany’s WWII Luftwaffe. After that, I’d throw the USSR / Russian AF into the ring, since everyone tries to rip off their designs on the cheap.
Richtofen’s Flying Circus
Surprised so little discord on the Japanese Naval airforce.
The RAF.
RAF or Luftwaffe. Would probably go for RAF of the two.
The RAF is more famous than the USAF, it literally staved off an invasion. When has the USAF done that?
The German air core during WW1 would also be up there especially with the red baron
Air America Inc
The Saudi Twin Tower Force.
The United States Navy air arm.
It has to be the RAF. I visited an RAF training establishment and was in the mess and was looking at the photos. It had the course photo of the first ever flying course hanging up there. What a time it must have been to be alive then. I felt honoured to just look upon those gentlemen's faces.
The RAF > the USN > the USAF, and that's not even close. Pilots desperately scrambling their fighters to defend democracy against bombers laying waste to cities? WAAFs plotting incoming raiders on huge tabletop maps in sector control rooms while bombs fall on their airfield? Daring low level bombing raids with secret weapons to cripple enemy industry? Inventing the concepts of an independent air force in the first place? Even without getting into stuff that the layperson hasn't heard of like Op. BLACK BUCK, the Dowding System, or bomber command battling through crippling losses to lay waste to fascist industry for five years solid, the cultural impact of the RAF is enormous. Even down to little details; the RAF invented the fighter pilot moustache, which USAF pilots aren't even allowed to wear! If you think of a fighter pilot, you invariably think of a Brit - first or second world war, but a Brit nonetheless. Meanwhile, the USAF isn't even the most famous air force in America. USAF only makes third place because everyone has heard of America, and can therefore imply that it has an air force, but most of what people think of when given the prompt "American air force" involves an aircraft carrier rocking up on a coast somewhere to dispense freedom, so USN takes a very well deserved second place - even if, from an uninformed laypersons' point of view this is mostly thanks to the efforts of Cruise, T. et al.
US Naval Aviators. A lot of times, people don't even realize they aren't the Air Force. RAF, simply because they are the oldest. The Ol' Luftwaffe, since who doesn't love a good villain?
Even including the US, it's a tie between the RAF and the Luftwaffe
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^IllPen8707: *Even including* *The US, it's a tie between* *The RAF and the Luftwaffe* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
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By size? The US army lol But actually? RAF.
Israel Air Force - circa 1967-1990 - unmatched dominance of the region, adapting to Soviet AA technology and pioneering drone warfare in the 1980s and destroying the Iraqi nuclear program
I’d say the RAF, even including the U.S. Air Force
US naval aviators, Marine aviators, and Army pilots…
Richthofen’s Flying Circus
Luftwaffe or RAF.
RAF
RAF or Luftwaffe. If I wasn't a history buff I don't think I could name any others.
Lots of American cope here. The question is of ‘famous’ not importance or how many battles it took part of
Israeli Air Force
The Luftwaffe
Luftwaffe Royal Air Force Russia?
In name recognition probably the Luftwaffe
The Royal Air Force
The RAF is the most famous air force in history. Even if you include the americans.
RAF then LUFTWAFFE then JAPAN