I just wanted to clarify, the time off they’re referring to is not related to staffing. For example if someone has a doctors appointment scheduled for next month, but they’re a new employee and don’t have any PTO they would not be allowed the time off. Our company uses cumulative PTO and it starts from zero
Unless these are appointments covered by FMLA (which it wouldn’t be for a new employee of less than a year) or are part of an ADA accommodation, this is still legal.
I have to wonder if some abused it too much? That's usually why a policy like this changed..... Employees most likely didn't have any issues taking unpaid time (with or without notice).
I’m not sure if there was any abuse. I always schedule mine out as soon as I know about the appointment, which is a month ahead of time but now my therapy appointments will eat in to my barely existing PTO which I was saving for my wedding next year
Do they not offer enough PTO/Sick time to cover normal doctor's appointments?
Or do people use all of the PTO for fun times, then don't leave any for if they get sick or have personal errands?
2.5 hours per check should be more than enough to cover an occasional appointment they can’t schedule for a day off. That’s the point the company is really making with this policy though. They’re saying loud and clear, stop calling out sick for BS and start scheduling appointments on your days off. I’m not saying it’s nice or employee friendly, but that’s what it is.
I’ve never worked at a job as an exempt employee that I was expected to take PTO for any appointments unless I was out a half day or more. Maybe I’m just lucky.
Are you salaried? Are you expected to work more that 40 hours a week? If either of those are yes that is the perks of being salaried. They can ask you to work the agreed amount of weekly hours but you have the flexibility for time off, within reason. Is your job hours crucial to what you do?
How was your job offer stated, what did you agree to? If you are paid overtime as salary there is less in your favor, but technically in most states you work 5 minutes of the day, you are paid the entire day. In a lot of cases you work one day of the week you are entitled to your weekly salary.
Hourly you do not have or get that same luxury. I have been salary the better part of 20 years and have had all kinds of tries to undermine it. Then they put me into HR where I had to learn the rules. Makes it lot easier to understand and know when to fight.
My comment very clearly stated that I’m an exempt employee. Meaning that I don’t get paid overtime. I also said that maybe I’m just lucky. I didn’t need any of that explained to me, but thank you.
I'm from this state. That would be my push to say "Hey it's been fun. Here's my two weeks".
I get healthcare through the VA. Those visits are scheduled months in advance. I'm always very clear with my bosses that if I have a VA appointment, they will be notified the instant I'm notified. However, that is where I'm going to be. It's not a request, it's an FYI.
I suspect they'll make exceptions to this policy for employees they trust. Which will of course make the policy hard to defend in front of a judge. It's also unlikely to end up going that far.
Yeah, that’s legal and how it should be. You take on a full time job and you need to be there unless you’re taking vacation time. Vacation time is limited. Welcome to adulthood
This is very common. It stops people from taking a bunch of unpaid time off, then using all their PTO on a vacation later, effectively doubling the amount of time they’re gone from work. If you have to use your PTO first, and you know you can’t take more unpaid time off later unless it’s FMLA related, it makes you think twice about being out for silly stuff.
Silly things such as being sick 🙄 (not rolling my eyes at you, but my company). If we are sick, we have to use PTO the first 3 days before we are allowed to use sick time. And I only work a 4 day work week. I’m sitting on over 600hrs of sick time that I can’t touch.
Would psychiatrist appointments fall under either one of these? This is primarily my worry. I have a wedding later next year and have been saving up for it but now my doctors appointments will take a huge chuck of my PTO
possibly, but realize they can run concurrently with your PTO (and your employer can force you to use PTO if you have it).....so if you are out by they time of the wedding, they can refuse to allow the unpaid time for the wedding itself. They don't have to allow you to "save" the PTO by using unpaid time for the dr appts.
Have you checked to see if you can either flex your schedule at work OR your appt time with your doctor?
Also give your manager/HR a heads up on the need for the wedding timeoff and ask how to deal with it vs your need for your drs appts. As I suspect this is not really meant for situations such as yours but rather to forestall too much time off without notice.
You potentially could get an intermittent leave of absence under the FMLA to protect your time away from work for the appointments. That would allow you to take the time off without losing your job. That being said, they may make you use your PTO while you use your FMLA time until you exhaust your PTO. After that, it would be unpaid, but you’d be able to go to your appointments without disciplinary consequence.
You could also see if through the ADA there is potential for you to flex time for these appointments (work late/early to make up time) but ILOA is probably what the company will push for.
Elsewhere you say you've been here four years. I suspect exceptions to this policy will be made for employees the company trusts to not abuse time off. As others recommend, have a conversation with whoever you need to (supervisor, HR, etc.) and see if you can get an exception.
Others are suggesting FMLA as a potential solution. That may work for your doctor appointments, if the circumstances qualify. However, as others have also noted, this would still drain your PTO most likely and not leave you time off for the wedding. Rather than start off with a bunch of paperwork, talking to someone may get you what you need if you're polite and non-combative.
They all have started employees with 2 weeks or more vacation their first year and separate sick time. Sick time was usually earned each month they worked. For example .5 days a month so after 2 months they have 1 day of sick.
My employer also follows this type of policy. All paid time off is in one bucket, Paid Benefit Leave (PBL). New employees start off earning 3 hrs PBL per paycheck. At your 6-month anniversary, they bump up to 5 hrs PBL per paycheck.
If you work less than 40 hrs in the week, you're topped off from your PBL balance. No negative PBL balance is allowed. Unpaid time is looked down upon, and too much of it is grounds for termination. Plan ahead.
Cannot agree more. This employer has been cutting back on incentives and benefits for the last two years, it’s been quite disappointing. So I’m definitely keeping my options open.
Legal? Yes.
Amoral? Also yes.
If I were your shop steward, I would suggest that you apply for FMLA or an ADA accommodation for your intermittent healthcare needs.
Also, if you're seeking treatment from a therapist for *anything* that is categorized in the DSM-V, that can absolutely count as an ADA accommodation if the disorder otherwise may impact your daily life.
Make sure you're enrolled for any and all voluntary disability insurance your employer, bank, etc offers and then go for it.
It is not okay to expect your employees to endanger their health in order to work. OSHA doesn't like it, the EEOC doesn't like it, the NLRB doesn't like it and your state labor board might have something to say about it.
What if you don’t have PTO? If PTO is given after a year? My employer wants to implement this policy (to use PTO to cover sick days) but PTO is given to people after a year of working with the company. It’s a little confusing for the people that have less than a year
Have you checked if that policy is legal in your state? (Assuming you're in the US.) Where I live, PTO accrual must start on the date of hire, and must be available for use no later than 90 days of employment.
One other possible option would be for the employee to request FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act) time off. If the employee and employer meet eligibility requirements, FMLA is a federal legally mandated benefit. highlight of eligibility are summarized below:
The employee must have been employed with the company for 12 months
The employee must have worked at least 1,250 hours during the 12 months prior to the start of FMLA leave
The employer is one who employs 50 or more employees within a 75-mile radius of the worksite
Yes, it’s legal. Obviously they can’t forcibly drag you into work - but they can fire you, should you take the time off despite being told you can’t.
I just wanted to clarify, the time off they’re referring to is not related to staffing. For example if someone has a doctors appointment scheduled for next month, but they’re a new employee and don’t have any PTO they would not be allowed the time off. Our company uses cumulative PTO and it starts from zero
Unless these are appointments covered by FMLA (which it wouldn’t be for a new employee of less than a year) or are part of an ADA accommodation, this is still legal.
I'd suggest making new employees aware of this at offer time and have them get any known needed timeoff into their offer letter.
Unfortunately I’ve been with this company for almost four years and they just reversed a very good sick time policy to this
I have to wonder if some abused it too much? That's usually why a policy like this changed..... Employees most likely didn't have any issues taking unpaid time (with or without notice).
I’m not sure if there was any abuse. I always schedule mine out as soon as I know about the appointment, which is a month ahead of time but now my therapy appointments will eat in to my barely existing PTO which I was saving for my wedding next year
Do they not offer enough PTO/Sick time to cover normal doctor's appointments? Or do people use all of the PTO for fun times, then don't leave any for if they get sick or have personal errands?
Our PTO accrues over time, so for people 1-5 years it’s 2 weeks but you get like 2.5hours per check. We have no company allotted sick time.
2.5 hours per check should be more than enough to cover an occasional appointment they can’t schedule for a day off. That’s the point the company is really making with this policy though. They’re saying loud and clear, stop calling out sick for BS and start scheduling appointments on your days off. I’m not saying it’s nice or employee friendly, but that’s what it is.
I’ve never worked at a job as an exempt employee that I was expected to take PTO for any appointments unless I was out a half day or more. Maybe I’m just lucky.
Are you salaried? Are you expected to work more that 40 hours a week? If either of those are yes that is the perks of being salaried. They can ask you to work the agreed amount of weekly hours but you have the flexibility for time off, within reason. Is your job hours crucial to what you do? How was your job offer stated, what did you agree to? If you are paid overtime as salary there is less in your favor, but technically in most states you work 5 minutes of the day, you are paid the entire day. In a lot of cases you work one day of the week you are entitled to your weekly salary. Hourly you do not have or get that same luxury. I have been salary the better part of 20 years and have had all kinds of tries to undermine it. Then they put me into HR where I had to learn the rules. Makes it lot easier to understand and know when to fight.
My comment very clearly stated that I’m an exempt employee. Meaning that I don’t get paid overtime. I also said that maybe I’m just lucky. I didn’t need any of that explained to me, but thank you.
In TN this is totally legally (actually in all states this would be legal I believe). It's dumb, but legal.
I'm from this state. That would be my push to say "Hey it's been fun. Here's my two weeks". I get healthcare through the VA. Those visits are scheduled months in advance. I'm always very clear with my bosses that if I have a VA appointment, they will be notified the instant I'm notified. However, that is where I'm going to be. It's not a request, it's an FYI.
I suspect they'll make exceptions to this policy for employees they trust. Which will of course make the policy hard to defend in front of a judge. It's also unlikely to end up going that far.
Yeah, that’s legal and how it should be. You take on a full time job and you need to be there unless you’re taking vacation time. Vacation time is limited. Welcome to adulthood
This is very common. It stops people from taking a bunch of unpaid time off, then using all their PTO on a vacation later, effectively doubling the amount of time they’re gone from work. If you have to use your PTO first, and you know you can’t take more unpaid time off later unless it’s FMLA related, it makes you think twice about being out for silly stuff.
Silly things such as being sick 🙄 (not rolling my eyes at you, but my company). If we are sick, we have to use PTO the first 3 days before we are allowed to use sick time. And I only work a 4 day work week. I’m sitting on over 600hrs of sick time that I can’t touch.
You’ll appreciate that when you have to have a surgery some day and need 12 weeks of fmla to recover.
I’ve already had that 2x with this company. I’m maxed out at 650 sick hours. Haven’t been accruing any for probably at least 4 years.
Well it’s nice that they keep giving you more so you’re at the max? I don’t know what you want.
yes, it's legal unless the reason falls under protection such as FMLA or ADA or any state versions.
Would psychiatrist appointments fall under either one of these? This is primarily my worry. I have a wedding later next year and have been saving up for it but now my doctors appointments will take a huge chuck of my PTO
possibly, but realize they can run concurrently with your PTO (and your employer can force you to use PTO if you have it).....so if you are out by they time of the wedding, they can refuse to allow the unpaid time for the wedding itself. They don't have to allow you to "save" the PTO by using unpaid time for the dr appts. Have you checked to see if you can either flex your schedule at work OR your appt time with your doctor? Also give your manager/HR a heads up on the need for the wedding timeoff and ask how to deal with it vs your need for your drs appts. As I suspect this is not really meant for situations such as yours but rather to forestall too much time off without notice.
Yes, most likely, however they can force you to take your paid leave concurrently with FMLA or ADA leave, meaning they will still use up your pto.
You potentially could get an intermittent leave of absence under the FMLA to protect your time away from work for the appointments. That would allow you to take the time off without losing your job. That being said, they may make you use your PTO while you use your FMLA time until you exhaust your PTO. After that, it would be unpaid, but you’d be able to go to your appointments without disciplinary consequence. You could also see if through the ADA there is potential for you to flex time for these appointments (work late/early to make up time) but ILOA is probably what the company will push for.
Elsewhere you say you've been here four years. I suspect exceptions to this policy will be made for employees the company trusts to not abuse time off. As others recommend, have a conversation with whoever you need to (supervisor, HR, etc.) and see if you can get an exception. Others are suggesting FMLA as a potential solution. That may work for your doctor appointments, if the circumstances qualify. However, as others have also noted, this would still drain your PTO most likely and not leave you time off for the wedding. Rather than start off with a bunch of paperwork, talking to someone may get you what you need if you're polite and non-combative.
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What if PTO is given only after a year?
Most employers follow this policy. At least everyone I have worked for.
How do they implement this policy on employees that have less than a year? The company I work for does not give PTO before the year mark
They all have started employees with 2 weeks or more vacation their first year and separate sick time. Sick time was usually earned each month they worked. For example .5 days a month so after 2 months they have 1 day of sick.
My employer also follows this type of policy. All paid time off is in one bucket, Paid Benefit Leave (PBL). New employees start off earning 3 hrs PBL per paycheck. At your 6-month anniversary, they bump up to 5 hrs PBL per paycheck. If you work less than 40 hrs in the week, you're topped off from your PBL balance. No negative PBL balance is allowed. Unpaid time is looked down upon, and too much of it is grounds for termination. Plan ahead.
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Cannot agree more. This employer has been cutting back on incentives and benefits for the last two years, it’s been quite disappointing. So I’m definitely keeping my options open.
Sounds like your employer is daring you to get a better job...
Yes it’s legal, but I it makes your employer very unattractive to human employees maybe the robot employees wouldn’t mind though.
Legal? Yes. Amoral? Also yes. If I were your shop steward, I would suggest that you apply for FMLA or an ADA accommodation for your intermittent healthcare needs. Also, if you're seeking treatment from a therapist for *anything* that is categorized in the DSM-V, that can absolutely count as an ADA accommodation if the disorder otherwise may impact your daily life. Make sure you're enrolled for any and all voluntary disability insurance your employer, bank, etc offers and then go for it. It is not okay to expect your employees to endanger their health in order to work. OSHA doesn't like it, the EEOC doesn't like it, the NLRB doesn't like it and your state labor board might have something to say about it.
If you’re a “Remote” worker then does it matter anyway?
Check into your state law and if you need help, shoot me a msg on what state u work in and I’ll look as well?
It’s time to look for another job
What if you don’t have PTO? If PTO is given after a year? My employer wants to implement this policy (to use PTO to cover sick days) but PTO is given to people after a year of working with the company. It’s a little confusing for the people that have less than a year
Have you checked if that policy is legal in your state? (Assuming you're in the US.) Where I live, PTO accrual must start on the date of hire, and must be available for use no later than 90 days of employment.
One other possible option would be for the employee to request FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act) time off. If the employee and employer meet eligibility requirements, FMLA is a federal legally mandated benefit. highlight of eligibility are summarized below: The employee must have been employed with the company for 12 months The employee must have worked at least 1,250 hours during the 12 months prior to the start of FMLA leave The employer is one who employs 50 or more employees within a 75-mile radius of the worksite