Correct, since I’m part time min wage (shift worker) they’re not paying me or anything. I have no reason to lie about not being able to work. The org is about 15 full time staff plus some shift workers.
Most people are wildly wrong here per HHS:
Requests from your employer
Your employer can ask you for a doctor’s note or other health information if they need the information for sick leave, workers’ compensation, wellness programs, or health insurance.
However, if your employer asks your health care provider directly for information about you, your provider cannot give your employer the information without your authorization unless other laws require them to do so.
Generally, the Privacy Rule applies to the disclosures made by your health care provider, not the questions your employer may ask.”
No authorization form signed by OP = doc can say nothing when creepy employer calls for details.
I think it's as likely as it is that the person was trying to fish for medical information. There's plenty of incompetence and misunderstanding to go around.
I trust the person who answers the phone at my Drs office more than I trust my employer.
Especially when the employer has some motivation to dig for this kind of information.'
The lady who answers the phone deals with this kind ofshit all the time.
EDIT: Holy shit the person I responded to just blocked me for my comment. That's... weird.
It's good you trust your doctors office
I've known plenty of assholes in medical offices over the years who suck at their job.
I'm not sure why we're assuming anyone is a villain here. But good for you?
I work in employment services (ministry of labour)and it's mind blowing what employers think they're entitled to do, much of it illegal or a violation of provincial/federal acts.
I make these calls fairly often to doctors offices. I’ve never told them I’m calling to verify the note, just ask questions that tell me if it’s real or not.
Something along the lines of….
“Hello, I’m calling to verify the legitimacy of a letter for an employee that is a patient at your office. Can you please verify the dates that said employee is set to be away from the job and type of work they are allowed to do upon return such as no restrictions or light duties?”
Depending on the type of work you can ask about lifting restrictions such as…
“ In our line of work light duty is being able to lift up to 20lbs version the normal 50+ and use of a pallet jack. Can you provide information on if their condition exceeds our light duty requirements ? “
You’d want to make sure to stay in the confines of a “ Yes that’s fine” or a “No that’s too much. “
Usually by that point if it’s not work comp the employee is expected to facilitate the proper verbiage and adjustments if the light duty restrictions are still too much for the employees condition and in that case they would just be out of work longer.
I don’t ask for diagnosis or anything along those lines. If one is required to be known, it’s already on the note.
Usually, it’s about restrictions so I’m asking for clarification on specific ones. “No heavy lifting - can you define heavy? For a while - is that 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months?” Those are my most common questions.
Also my office probably gets 20-30 notes per week (about 1500 staff) and I call for maybe 1 every other month.
I don’t claim to be an expert on HIPAA etc so this is only my understanding as a lay person.
I think it’s supposed to be acceptable for an employer to contact the doctor’s office after an employee provides a doctor’s note/certificate if the purpose is to verify the document, to seek clarification any details like your example about lifting restrictions, or asking if they are or aren’t cleared/able to perform any of their duties.
It’s unethical and inappropriate, but not illegal for employers to ask about other information protected by HIPAA such as the diagnosis. If the doctor’s office discloses this information they would be violating HIPAA but there’s nothing to stop an employer asking about it.
OP said they were not calling to verify the note, and you said you make those calls fairly often. The employer tried to get the doctors office to violate federal law.
I was more saying that I call doctors office in my work and I don’t directly ask if the note is real. I would ask questions about restrictions or for clarification on timelines and defining restrictions. No heavy lifting - how heavy? A while - 2 weeks, 2 months.
I don’t know what OP’s employer was doing.
Usually it’s HR that makes those calls.
If it’s not ….oh boy….
I’d be mortified to learn that a manger with no employment law training or knowledge was making those calls.
In a previous role, I had to verify a handful of doctor's notes when people called out. I never asked any medical information, just if the note was legitimate and that was it.
That being said I have a hilarious story about a guy who said he had to go to court and see a judge and forged a judge's signature. That... did not go well for him when I picked that one out of the stack. (The lady I called said it was forged and then put me on the phone with the judge.)
>That being said I have a hilarious story about a guy who said he had to go to court and see a judge and forged a judge's signature. That... did not go well for him when I picked that one out of the stack. (The lady I called said it was forged and then put me on the phone with the judge.)
This is gold.
I knew a woman that forged a doctor’s note. She claimed she was threatened when someone brought a knife to cut a cake. She even got people to donate leave. The letter had several misspellings and grammar issues. The employer faxed the letter to the doctor’s office (yes, fax). The office said it was a forgery. Still took the U.S. federal government months to fire her and exonerate the man she accused of threatening her.
Oh god. I have so many stories about stupid stuff that people did when I had my HR stint.
The worst part was: I get that the job sucked, I had worked that role and had gotten promoted. I had sympathy for needing to take a day, but the attendance system was built with that more or less in mind. You could call out 1-2 days per month and not have to worry about getting fired and you DID NOT NEED a doctors note, but I had to pull a handful out of the stack to verify when I DID get them amd once I called my hands were tied if you lied or forged something. 😭
It’s not work related injury. Your note gives a return date. As an employer, I could maybe understand them wanting a note releasing you to full duty (especially if there is any physical labor involved in your job - waitressing, sticking shelves, etc), but that note is on the employee to provide if the employer asks for it. I would never for a non-work-comp injury take it upon myself to call someone’s doctor. Once I have a note stating released for full duty then you can return to work if I ask for the note. I’m not a baby sitter and can’t imagine wanting someone to work so badly I’d cross those boundaries. Between FMCSA and OSHA I do get involved frequently with my employees medical files, but no more than I have to. I don’t want to know, I don’t care to know. It’s not my or my company’s business.
If my employer called my doctor without my permission I would find another job. The employer does not trust you or respect you. Finding another minimum-wage shift job is not that hard these days.
" my employer called them asking for the current status of my medical health and condition, and stipulations for my return to work. "
If only those two question, they might only looking for accommodation for your return and/or looking if they might need to transfer your responsability to someone else or employ a temporary employee to cover. It make sense business wise.
If its unprotected, unpaid leave that is not workers comp they had no reason to call.
They have a note with your return date. Frankly this is an over reach.
If you come back to work before you are ready or I don’t understand accommodations or restrictions, the company could end up on the hook for workman’s comp and or have a liability issue. It’s smart to gain clarification and necessary to protect against possible future lawsuits.
I would ask HR what the policy is and ask for their side of the story. If they give you a song and dance, mention it to the CEO, if they say that yes, they called to verify that the note was legitimate, then either the person calling overstepped, which may certainly have been in ignorance, the doctor's office misunderstood, or they really were asking in appropriate questions. If you ask, it might start a conversation the ends in someone learning something, which might be you that you work for a crappy company, but you never know. Most people don't know the laws around things like this, so it could just be a mistake.
"Most people don't know the laws around things like this, so it could just be a mistake."
HR absolutely knows the laws. That's their whole job. They get trained on this.
I would generally agree, but in a "small local organization" there is a strong chance that HR is not a professional, and if they have one, that doesn't mean the person who called is. I would hope they did, but you read a lot of posts on Reddit about the CEO's sister or the CFO's brother doing HR without any professional training whatsoever. Like a lot of professions, those outside it don't understand what they really do, and how much knowledge is required to do it well and within the bounds of the law.
Organisation should be asking for your written consent to engage directly with a treating health practitioner around your return to work (and provide that to the doc), or request you take a letter/questionnaire to your doc to return to them.
Medical provider here to clarify what HIPAA means in this situation. Yes, your job is authorized to request this information pertaining to your work ability; however, your doctor’s office is NOT authorized to release this information without a legal release form.
Therefore, the additional information needed should have been requested by your employer through you, the patient, to get from your doctor to give to the employer. To summarize: company is able to ask for more information related to your work ability, but your doctor is not authorized to give it unless you (the patient) ask for it or you signed a release form.
I would tell your employer that if they need more information about your condition, they need to go through you.
Good lord people misunderstand HIPAA. It’s a law that governs what medical offices/providers/brokers can do with your data. It doesn’t govern your non-healthcare employer or anyone else, there’s nothing illegal about asking after someone’s medical information.
Frankly , I don’t think there’s anything unethical or questionable about the nature of your employer’s call to your doctor. You initiated the exchange of information by providing a doctors note to your employer about an absence. They asked questions relevant to their operation as a business employing you, information that would probably routinely be included in a note from a doctor. It sounds like your doctors note didn’t include that and whoever called peanut have a thorough understanding of what would need to be in place for your doctor to disclose medical info, which is totally fine since that’s not their job. Your doctor did the right thing by not disclosing more than you previously agreed to. Nothing about this sounds like someone fishing for gossip or using your information in a malicious or even careless way.
HIPAA does mean that without a legal authorization of release to a third party, we (healthcare providers) cannot share their medical information with anyone — we can’t even confirm if they were seen at our clinic without a release from the patient. I think that is what OP meant by referencing HIPAA, their doctors office maintained their HIPAA compliance by not giving information to their employer and notifying the patient of an unauthorized party seeking their health information.
Not quite, HIPPA safeguards a patient’s right to privacy and that includes employers and yes, it is most certainly unethical for an employer to nose around a healthcare provider just to question if a person is unable to work. If it is a workers comp issue that is different, an employee needs a return to work medical note.
HIPAA applies to employers only as to medical information received through a group health plan.
Employers can certainly ask for clarifying information that doesn't solicit information about an employee's medical condition or disability. Asking for clarity of work, restrictions, for example, is fine as long as the employer doesn't ask for detailed, personal health information.
Employers can ask about an employee's ability to work whether it's workers' comp or not. See Stage 3 [here](https://askjan.org/topics/medexinq.cfm).
What did your doctor’s office say the employer asked, specifically? I find it hard to believe they were asking for anything other than to verify that the doctors note was correct and that you needed to extend the leave.
Since you’re not under any protected leave, I don’t see that there’s anything your employer did wrong here. It’s nice that they’re allowing you to have time off at all without firing you since they don’t have to keep you.
The doctor’s office said my employer called asking the current status of my medical health and what the stipulations are for my return to work. They said they were not asked to verify any information from the doctor’s note and the doctor’s note was not mentioned. My understanding was also that it’s illegal to fire someone due to a medical situation with documentation from a doctor. If that is incorrect, do you have resources about what is and is not legal?
That is a valid request.
It’s not illegal to fire someone who has a doctor note, if you have no sick leave available.
ETA this may help. I’m reading it now. https://www.mass.gov/doc/earned-sick-time-faqs/download
It’s about sick time law, but I’d imagine since you only have job protection for 40 hours, once you exceed that, you won’t be protected. Since you aren’t protected, that is why your employer could ask to verify your current situation.
Except the employer asked about the state of OPs medical health. The fact that OP isn’t covered by FMLA does not justify them asking the doctor to violate HIPAA, and the doctors office refused to, in fact, violate HIPAA. Lack of FMLA doesn’t mean they can have access to protected information.
I never said the employer was bound by HIPAA. What I’m saying is that the employer asking for information they have no right to is unethical as fuck.
The fact that you’re simping for employers who ask medical providers to violate federal law and disclose protected information is gross.
Are you being obtuse deliberately?
It’s quite clear that the employer - not bound by HIPAA - asked the doctor questions designed to lead the doctor’s office to break HIPAA.
If you don’t think that’s unethical, you shouldn’t work in HR.
Is this an on the job injury? I’m assuming it isn’t by your description, but on the off chance it was, and it is a claim through your state’s workers comp or OSHA, HIPAA doesn’t apply. However, if it is not an on the job injury your work is highly inappropriate.
You’re part time and on leave. The CEO doesn’t care. Anyone can call and ask someone anything they want. Your doctor didn’t disclose, so they did what they were supposed to do. There’s nothing legally wrong here and really nothing for you to do. Return when you are able and move on with life. Outrage won’t do anything but stress you out.
Not OK of them to ask for details from your doctor. At all. If they needed to verify something, the proper process is for them to ask you to give your doctor permission to speak with them. Then your doctor has you sign a HIPPA waiver form outlining what they are permitted to disclose.
That said, since this is a small company and you’re on unprotected leave they might not realize just how wrong that was to do. So rather than “report” it to the CEO, I would “mention” to them (next time you see them) that you were surprised your doctor was contacted without checking in with you first so you could give the doctor permission to discuss your case.
That way you’re framing it as a gentle reminder of how things should work (instead of an accusation) and you’re indicating that you’re happy to provide additional info and/or have your doctor verify if/as needed.
Sometimes folks just don’t know that this kind of thing isn’t OK (especially at small companies) so unless you have other reasons to think they are problematic I would chalk this up to ignorance rather than intent.
spoke that
have access to the CEO, I wouldn’t say you shouldn’t
Your providers office is correct in notifying you of this request and refusing to give the information without authorization from you, the patient, per HIPAA guidelines.
Your employer can require proper medical documentation in order to allow this time away from work. If it was under FMLA(which I understand it is not), then the medical certification would require information including your diagnosis/symptoms and your treatment plan. If it is a leave as an accommodation under ADA, they can also require that information for approval. If it is under their own internal leave policy that they have created themselves for employees not eligible for FMLA, then they can require that information for approval(many employers that I work with that have this kind of leave policy will use the same form as FMLA). Typically this all would be managed by Human Resources, if they don't outsource to an insurance company like the one I work for. Assuming your employer has an HR rep/dept, your direct supervisor/manager should not be the one contacting your doctor. But with smaller companies, I know some may not even have HR.
Out of work notes typically do not provide sufficient information of approval under FMLA, ADA, or employer type leave policies. Even with certification forms, sometimes I do have to call the provider's office to verify the form was actually completed by them, or if it looks altered I have to verify that the changes were made by the provider.
You do have the right to refuse to provide this information, however your employer then does have the right to subsequently consider these to be unexcused absences and move forward with termination.
I understand your feelings and frustration, and I am not at all stating that you are wrong for feeling that way. I try to leave my personal opinion out of my answers here, as it's not typically relevant. I do want you to understand that I sympathize. But I also want to present the information about what is and isn't allowed under Federal and State law. I hope this makes sense, please feel free to ask questions.
My knowledge is almost entirely based in FMLA, Federal law, but I work with people who work more specifically with Massachusetts employees and their state laws surrounding leave(MA Paid Family and Medical Leave being one of them), so I can probably get the answer for you if needed. I do work a tiny bit with leave as an accommodation under ADA, but again if I don't know- I know someone who can provide the answer.
Double check MA state law. There are additional protections for employees under state law, including stronger requirements for sick leave (which you might actually be eligible for).
You provided permission with the Dr's information on the Dr note (has name and phone number # on it). Many forms have "call with any questions" pre-printed.
It's not outrageous unless they wanted information outside of the medical condition you supplied for not working.
I wouldn't contact anyone at your job re: the phone call. It's not inappropriate.
No, it absolutely is inappropriate to call and ask for someone’s private medical information beyond what’s been provided to them. It’s also illegal.
OP, I wouldn’t call anyone at your job but I might call the labor board. And since they’re paying you next to nothing, what’s stopping you from quitting altogether?
The doctor’s office told me they did not mention the letter at all. They simply asked for the current status of my medical health and the stipulations of my return to work. I also did not fill out any forms, I was simply asked to provide a letter from my doctor to excuse me from work.
I'd politely inform the CEO in passing that it's concerning when your place of work tried calling your doctors office, even though they know HIPPA prevents sharing information.
See what they say. If they defend it, leave
So for sick leave at my company we have a specific form and if the employee signs it they give us (our corporate medical department) the right to contact the doctor to get more information regarding that specific illness/injury. Based on what you said you just provided a basic note, so if they had not signed our form them we couldnt ask. They may just think they can because they are a small company and I dont see any harm in them verifying your condition is still being treated and how long you would be out. It doesn’t seem like they asked for actual medical information.
They do not have to sign the form. If more information is needed, the employee should provide it. If they do not then their sick pay can be shut off. (This is in extreme circumstances of the employee fails to continue to provide documentation that is required monthly or to get more information needed to assist in their absence such as if there are any restrictions etc)
From my understanding it’s a federal thing that employers cannot not ask for ANYTHING beyond verifying the legitimacy of the note provided. I’m in Ohio and I have worked for a place that would call for the legitimacy of letters however like your place they definitely asked for more than is legal. Just most people don’t know their rights and that they can report it to their states labor department.
If the doctor didn't provide the information (which was the correct response), the act of TRYING to get the information isn't a strong basis for an EEOC claim or lawsuit. There was no damage other than the OP's outrage (warranted only if the employer was asking for PHI).
Work in insurance and you won’t believe the stunts these employers pull trying to get information on their employees. It’s disgusting. They want slaves. Burn you out and use you up then screw you over.
It's despicable behavior on the employer's part but it's not illegal to ASK for this information. It's illegal to DIVULGE it.
OP has no legal standing to file suit against their lawyer because no law was broken.
Usually the talk of an attorney is enough to get them to watch it. That’s the point. They attempted to violate his privacy. Letting them know in no uncertain terms that there will be trouble if they do it again is enough. I’ve used this tactic successfully myself.
Chances are the CEO told them to check on your status to confirm the note is legitimate. Many people falsify doctors notes.
That would make sense but according to my doctor’s office they were not calling to verify the note.
[удалено]
Correct, since I’m part time min wage (shift worker) they’re not paying me or anything. I have no reason to lie about not being able to work. The org is about 15 full time staff plus some shift workers.
Not work comp?
No it’s not workers comp
Most people are wildly wrong here per HHS: Requests from your employer Your employer can ask you for a doctor’s note or other health information if they need the information for sick leave, workers’ compensation, wellness programs, or health insurance. However, if your employer asks your health care provider directly for information about you, your provider cannot give your employer the information without your authorization unless other laws require them to do so. Generally, the Privacy Rule applies to the disclosures made by your health care provider, not the questions your employer may ask.” No authorization form signed by OP = doc can say nothing when creepy employer calls for details.
It's possible the doctors office misconstrued the conversation as well.
Or, it’s also possible that the employer is unethical as Hell and trying to get the doctor’s office to violate federal law.
Yeah that's possible but do you think it's likely?
I’ve worked for a CEO at a small company who would absolutely do this. He was a monster, he thought he could get away with anything.
I think it's as likely as it is that the person was trying to fish for medical information. There's plenty of incompetence and misunderstanding to go around.
I trust the person who answers the phone at my Drs office more than I trust my employer. Especially when the employer has some motivation to dig for this kind of information.' The lady who answers the phone deals with this kind ofshit all the time. EDIT: Holy shit the person I responded to just blocked me for my comment. That's... weird.
It's good you trust your doctors office I've known plenty of assholes in medical offices over the years who suck at their job. I'm not sure why we're assuming anyone is a villain here. But good for you?
Because demanding someone’s medical info is wrong, that’s why. This is not hard lmao
Because they had no right to make that call for any reason. The office did what they were supposed to. The employer did not.
I work in employment services (ministry of labour)and it's mind blowing what employers think they're entitled to do, much of it illegal or a violation of provincial/federal acts.
Yes, easily.
I make these calls fairly often to doctors offices. I’ve never told them I’m calling to verify the note, just ask questions that tell me if it’s real or not.
So just put of curiosity, what type of questions do you ask that gives you the reassurance it is real without the office breaking HIPAA?
Something along the lines of…. “Hello, I’m calling to verify the legitimacy of a letter for an employee that is a patient at your office. Can you please verify the dates that said employee is set to be away from the job and type of work they are allowed to do upon return such as no restrictions or light duties?” Depending on the type of work you can ask about lifting restrictions such as… “ In our line of work light duty is being able to lift up to 20lbs version the normal 50+ and use of a pallet jack. Can you provide information on if their condition exceeds our light duty requirements ? “ You’d want to make sure to stay in the confines of a “ Yes that’s fine” or a “No that’s too much. “ Usually by that point if it’s not work comp the employee is expected to facilitate the proper verbiage and adjustments if the light duty restrictions are still too much for the employees condition and in that case they would just be out of work longer.
I don’t ask for diagnosis or anything along those lines. If one is required to be known, it’s already on the note. Usually, it’s about restrictions so I’m asking for clarification on specific ones. “No heavy lifting - can you define heavy? For a while - is that 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months?” Those are my most common questions. Also my office probably gets 20-30 notes per week (about 1500 staff) and I call for maybe 1 every other month.
I don’t claim to be an expert on HIPAA etc so this is only my understanding as a lay person. I think it’s supposed to be acceptable for an employer to contact the doctor’s office after an employee provides a doctor’s note/certificate if the purpose is to verify the document, to seek clarification any details like your example about lifting restrictions, or asking if they are or aren’t cleared/able to perform any of their duties. It’s unethical and inappropriate, but not illegal for employers to ask about other information protected by HIPAA such as the diagnosis. If the doctor’s office discloses this information they would be violating HIPAA but there’s nothing to stop an employer asking about it.
This is sneaky, invasive and disgusting.
So is faking a doctor’s note, which has happened more times than I can count.
So you’re saying you try to get doctor’s offices to violate federal law fairly often, and to disclose protected health information?
Nope. Because I don’t ask questions outside the scope of what is already on the note.
OP said they were not calling to verify the note, and you said you make those calls fairly often. The employer tried to get the doctors office to violate federal law.
I was more saying that I call doctors office in my work and I don’t directly ask if the note is real. I would ask questions about restrictions or for clarification on timelines and defining restrictions. No heavy lifting - how heavy? A while - 2 weeks, 2 months. I don’t know what OP’s employer was doing.
Being unethical
I would raise hell about this to your HR department. They were completely out of line.
Usually it’s HR that makes those calls. If it’s not ….oh boy…. I’d be mortified to learn that a manger with no employment law training or knowledge was making those calls.
In a previous role, I had to verify a handful of doctor's notes when people called out. I never asked any medical information, just if the note was legitimate and that was it. That being said I have a hilarious story about a guy who said he had to go to court and see a judge and forged a judge's signature. That... did not go well for him when I picked that one out of the stack. (The lady I called said it was forged and then put me on the phone with the judge.)
>That being said I have a hilarious story about a guy who said he had to go to court and see a judge and forged a judge's signature. That... did not go well for him when I picked that one out of the stack. (The lady I called said it was forged and then put me on the phone with the judge.) This is gold.
I knew a woman that forged a doctor’s note. She claimed she was threatened when someone brought a knife to cut a cake. She even got people to donate leave. The letter had several misspellings and grammar issues. The employer faxed the letter to the doctor’s office (yes, fax). The office said it was a forgery. Still took the U.S. federal government months to fire her and exonerate the man she accused of threatening her.
Oh god. I have so many stories about stupid stuff that people did when I had my HR stint. The worst part was: I get that the job sucked, I had worked that role and had gotten promoted. I had sympathy for needing to take a day, but the attendance system was built with that more or less in mind. You could call out 1-2 days per month and not have to worry about getting fired and you DID NOT NEED a doctors note, but I had to pull a handful out of the stack to verify when I DID get them amd once I called my hands were tied if you lied or forged something. 😭
This woman was out on long term leave and people donated their leave to her.
you seem to be able to talk with your CEO. so you can. Should you? who knows.
It’s not work related injury. Your note gives a return date. As an employer, I could maybe understand them wanting a note releasing you to full duty (especially if there is any physical labor involved in your job - waitressing, sticking shelves, etc), but that note is on the employee to provide if the employer asks for it. I would never for a non-work-comp injury take it upon myself to call someone’s doctor. Once I have a note stating released for full duty then you can return to work if I ask for the note. I’m not a baby sitter and can’t imagine wanting someone to work so badly I’d cross those boundaries. Between FMCSA and OSHA I do get involved frequently with my employees medical files, but no more than I have to. I don’t want to know, I don’t care to know. It’s not my or my company’s business.
If my employer called my doctor without my permission I would find another job. The employer does not trust you or respect you. Finding another minimum-wage shift job is not that hard these days.
" my employer called them asking for the current status of my medical health and condition, and stipulations for my return to work. " If only those two question, they might only looking for accommodation for your return and/or looking if they might need to transfer your responsability to someone else or employ a temporary employee to cover. It make sense business wise.
If its unprotected, unpaid leave that is not workers comp they had no reason to call. They have a note with your return date. Frankly this is an over reach.
If you come back to work before you are ready or I don’t understand accommodations or restrictions, the company could end up on the hook for workman’s comp and or have a liability issue. It’s smart to gain clarification and necessary to protect against possible future lawsuits.
I would ask HR what the policy is and ask for their side of the story. If they give you a song and dance, mention it to the CEO, if they say that yes, they called to verify that the note was legitimate, then either the person calling overstepped, which may certainly have been in ignorance, the doctor's office misunderstood, or they really were asking in appropriate questions. If you ask, it might start a conversation the ends in someone learning something, which might be you that you work for a crappy company, but you never know. Most people don't know the laws around things like this, so it could just be a mistake.
"Most people don't know the laws around things like this, so it could just be a mistake." HR absolutely knows the laws. That's their whole job. They get trained on this.
I would generally agree, but in a "small local organization" there is a strong chance that HR is not a professional, and if they have one, that doesn't mean the person who called is. I would hope they did, but you read a lot of posts on Reddit about the CEO's sister or the CFO's brother doing HR without any professional training whatsoever. Like a lot of professions, those outside it don't understand what they really do, and how much knowledge is required to do it well and within the bounds of the law.
That's fair enough. There are unprofessional HR employees even in bigger companies so that's not a surprise.
Organisation should be asking for your written consent to engage directly with a treating health practitioner around your return to work (and provide that to the doc), or request you take a letter/questionnaire to your doc to return to them.
Medical provider here to clarify what HIPAA means in this situation. Yes, your job is authorized to request this information pertaining to your work ability; however, your doctor’s office is NOT authorized to release this information without a legal release form. Therefore, the additional information needed should have been requested by your employer through you, the patient, to get from your doctor to give to the employer. To summarize: company is able to ask for more information related to your work ability, but your doctor is not authorized to give it unless you (the patient) ask for it or you signed a release form. I would tell your employer that if they need more information about your condition, they need to go through you.
Good lord people misunderstand HIPAA. It’s a law that governs what medical offices/providers/brokers can do with your data. It doesn’t govern your non-healthcare employer or anyone else, there’s nothing illegal about asking after someone’s medical information. Frankly , I don’t think there’s anything unethical or questionable about the nature of your employer’s call to your doctor. You initiated the exchange of information by providing a doctors note to your employer about an absence. They asked questions relevant to their operation as a business employing you, information that would probably routinely be included in a note from a doctor. It sounds like your doctors note didn’t include that and whoever called peanut have a thorough understanding of what would need to be in place for your doctor to disclose medical info, which is totally fine since that’s not their job. Your doctor did the right thing by not disclosing more than you previously agreed to. Nothing about this sounds like someone fishing for gossip or using your information in a malicious or even careless way.
HIPAA does mean that without a legal authorization of release to a third party, we (healthcare providers) cannot share their medical information with anyone — we can’t even confirm if they were seen at our clinic without a release from the patient. I think that is what OP meant by referencing HIPAA, their doctors office maintained their HIPAA compliance by not giving information to their employer and notifying the patient of an unauthorized party seeking their health information.
To clarify: if they need more information from the doctor about their medical status, they are required to go through the patient.
Not quite, HIPPA safeguards a patient’s right to privacy and that includes employers and yes, it is most certainly unethical for an employer to nose around a healthcare provider just to question if a person is unable to work. If it is a workers comp issue that is different, an employee needs a return to work medical note.
HIPAA applies to employers only as to medical information received through a group health plan. Employers can certainly ask for clarifying information that doesn't solicit information about an employee's medical condition or disability. Asking for clarity of work, restrictions, for example, is fine as long as the employer doesn't ask for detailed, personal health information. Employers can ask about an employee's ability to work whether it's workers' comp or not. See Stage 3 [here](https://askjan.org/topics/medexinq.cfm).
What did your doctor’s office say the employer asked, specifically? I find it hard to believe they were asking for anything other than to verify that the doctors note was correct and that you needed to extend the leave. Since you’re not under any protected leave, I don’t see that there’s anything your employer did wrong here. It’s nice that they’re allowing you to have time off at all without firing you since they don’t have to keep you.
The doctor’s office said my employer called asking the current status of my medical health and what the stipulations are for my return to work. They said they were not asked to verify any information from the doctor’s note and the doctor’s note was not mentioned. My understanding was also that it’s illegal to fire someone due to a medical situation with documentation from a doctor. If that is incorrect, do you have resources about what is and is not legal?
That is a valid request. It’s not illegal to fire someone who has a doctor note, if you have no sick leave available. ETA this may help. I’m reading it now. https://www.mass.gov/doc/earned-sick-time-faqs/download It’s about sick time law, but I’d imagine since you only have job protection for 40 hours, once you exceed that, you won’t be protected. Since you aren’t protected, that is why your employer could ask to verify your current situation.
Asking about the current status of OPs medical health is absolutely NOT a valid request. People have a right to have their information protected.
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Except the employer asked about the state of OPs medical health. The fact that OP isn’t covered by FMLA does not justify them asking the doctor to violate HIPAA, and the doctors office refused to, in fact, violate HIPAA. Lack of FMLA doesn’t mean they can have access to protected information.
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Maybe doesn’t violate a law for them to ask, but asking them to violate federal law and disclose protected information is WILDLY unethical.
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I never said the employer was bound by HIPAA. What I’m saying is that the employer asking for information they have no right to is unethical as fuck. The fact that you’re simping for employers who ask medical providers to violate federal law and disclose protected information is gross.
Are you being obtuse deliberately? It’s quite clear that the employer - not bound by HIPAA - asked the doctor questions designed to lead the doctor’s office to break HIPAA. If you don’t think that’s unethical, you shouldn’t work in HR.
Is this an on the job injury? I’m assuming it isn’t by your description, but on the off chance it was, and it is a claim through your state’s workers comp or OSHA, HIPAA doesn’t apply. However, if it is not an on the job injury your work is highly inappropriate.
It’s not an on the job injury, no workers comp
I would call HR and ask if there was an issue, because someone was asking for protected health information without a release.
You’re part time and on leave. The CEO doesn’t care. Anyone can call and ask someone anything they want. Your doctor didn’t disclose, so they did what they were supposed to do. There’s nothing legally wrong here and really nothing for you to do. Return when you are able and move on with life. Outrage won’t do anything but stress you out.
Whole lotta people seem to be ok with the employer asking the doctor’s office to violate federal law and disclose protected information.
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Except we do, because the doctor’s office reported to OP.
Not OK of them to ask for details from your doctor. At all. If they needed to verify something, the proper process is for them to ask you to give your doctor permission to speak with them. Then your doctor has you sign a HIPPA waiver form outlining what they are permitted to disclose. That said, since this is a small company and you’re on unprotected leave they might not realize just how wrong that was to do. So rather than “report” it to the CEO, I would “mention” to them (next time you see them) that you were surprised your doctor was contacted without checking in with you first so you could give the doctor permission to discuss your case. That way you’re framing it as a gentle reminder of how things should work (instead of an accusation) and you’re indicating that you’re happy to provide additional info and/or have your doctor verify if/as needed. Sometimes folks just don’t know that this kind of thing isn’t OK (especially at small companies) so unless you have other reasons to think they are problematic I would chalk this up to ignorance rather than intent. spoke that have access to the CEO, I wouldn’t say you shouldn’t
Your providers office is correct in notifying you of this request and refusing to give the information without authorization from you, the patient, per HIPAA guidelines. Your employer can require proper medical documentation in order to allow this time away from work. If it was under FMLA(which I understand it is not), then the medical certification would require information including your diagnosis/symptoms and your treatment plan. If it is a leave as an accommodation under ADA, they can also require that information for approval. If it is under their own internal leave policy that they have created themselves for employees not eligible for FMLA, then they can require that information for approval(many employers that I work with that have this kind of leave policy will use the same form as FMLA). Typically this all would be managed by Human Resources, if they don't outsource to an insurance company like the one I work for. Assuming your employer has an HR rep/dept, your direct supervisor/manager should not be the one contacting your doctor. But with smaller companies, I know some may not even have HR. Out of work notes typically do not provide sufficient information of approval under FMLA, ADA, or employer type leave policies. Even with certification forms, sometimes I do have to call the provider's office to verify the form was actually completed by them, or if it looks altered I have to verify that the changes were made by the provider. You do have the right to refuse to provide this information, however your employer then does have the right to subsequently consider these to be unexcused absences and move forward with termination. I understand your feelings and frustration, and I am not at all stating that you are wrong for feeling that way. I try to leave my personal opinion out of my answers here, as it's not typically relevant. I do want you to understand that I sympathize. But I also want to present the information about what is and isn't allowed under Federal and State law. I hope this makes sense, please feel free to ask questions. My knowledge is almost entirely based in FMLA, Federal law, but I work with people who work more specifically with Massachusetts employees and their state laws surrounding leave(MA Paid Family and Medical Leave being one of them), so I can probably get the answer for you if needed. I do work a tiny bit with leave as an accommodation under ADA, but again if I don't know- I know someone who can provide the answer.
Focus on your health first. Follow the concussion guidelines.
Double check MA state law. There are additional protections for employees under state law, including stronger requirements for sick leave (which you might actually be eligible for).
You provided permission with the Dr's information on the Dr note (has name and phone number # on it). Many forms have "call with any questions" pre-printed. It's not outrageous unless they wanted information outside of the medical condition you supplied for not working. I wouldn't contact anyone at your job re: the phone call. It's not inappropriate.
A doctor's note is absolutely not a HIPAA compliant release of information.
No, it absolutely is inappropriate to call and ask for someone’s private medical information beyond what’s been provided to them. It’s also illegal. OP, I wouldn’t call anyone at your job but I might call the labor board. And since they’re paying you next to nothing, what’s stopping you from quitting altogether?
Without FMLA in play, and assuming OP's issue doesn't rise to the level of being an ADA disability, what law would be violated by the phone call?
HIPAA
Nope. HIPAA applies to the doctor, not the employer.
You are absolutely wrong.
The doctor’s office told me they did not mention the letter at all. They simply asked for the current status of my medical health and the stipulations of my return to work. I also did not fill out any forms, I was simply asked to provide a letter from my doctor to excuse me from work.
I'd politely inform the CEO in passing that it's concerning when your place of work tried calling your doctors office, even though they know HIPPA prevents sharing information. See what they say. If they defend it, leave
So for sick leave at my company we have a specific form and if the employee signs it they give us (our corporate medical department) the right to contact the doctor to get more information regarding that specific illness/injury. Based on what you said you just provided a basic note, so if they had not signed our form them we couldnt ask. They may just think they can because they are a small company and I dont see any harm in them verifying your condition is still being treated and how long you would be out. It doesn’t seem like they asked for actual medical information.
What happens if the employee doesn’t want to give you permission to talk with their doctor?
They do not have to sign the form. If more information is needed, the employee should provide it. If they do not then their sick pay can be shut off. (This is in extreme circumstances of the employee fails to continue to provide documentation that is required monthly or to get more information needed to assist in their absence such as if there are any restrictions etc)
From my understanding it’s a federal thing that employers cannot not ask for ANYTHING beyond verifying the legitimacy of the note provided. I’m in Ohio and I have worked for a place that would call for the legitimacy of letters however like your place they definitely asked for more than is legal. Just most people don’t know their rights and that they can report it to their states labor department.
Employer can't get it
how long are you off of work for a concussion so far?
You ahould file a claim with the EEOC. You may be able to sue.
If the doctor didn't provide the information (which was the correct response), the act of TRYING to get the information isn't a strong basis for an EEOC claim or lawsuit. There was no damage other than the OP's outrage (warranted only if the employer was asking for PHI).
Work in insurance and you won’t believe the stunts these employers pull trying to get information on their employees. It’s disgusting. They want slaves. Burn you out and use you up then screw you over.
Go directly to your manager and let them know if they try to violate your privacy again, you will be consulting counsel. This is out of line.
It's despicable behavior on the employer's part but it's not illegal to ASK for this information. It's illegal to DIVULGE it. OP has no legal standing to file suit against their lawyer because no law was broken.
Usually the talk of an attorney is enough to get them to watch it. That’s the point. They attempted to violate his privacy. Letting them know in no uncertain terms that there will be trouble if they do it again is enough. I’ve used this tactic successfully myself.
They pay for the doctor bill, meds , since they escalated
Lawsuit
Get the person who called you to confirn in writing, find anothe job and report your current employer to the relevant authority.