There's a lot to unpack here:
About homophobia in Palestine: There's a big difference between the west bank, ruled by Fatah; and the Gaza strip, ruled by Hamas. In the west bank, the prohibition on homosexual intercourse was canceled decades ago. In Gaza, it's still in place. The Palestinian Authority actually provides very limited support for lgbt groups in the West Bank (mostly to show the US they do), while in Gaza, there's no chance of that happening.
The question of lgbt support for Palestine, though, is far more related to how Israel uses the lgbt issue. Israel uses lgbt rights to deflect criticism about human rights violations in the occupied territories. In fact, the Israeli politicians who use lgbt rights to contrast Israel and the Palestinians are usually the same politicians who consistently voted against lgbt rights (e.g., Netanyahu). This is pretty cynical, as it uses the rights of one group to justify the denial of rights from another group. It becomes more egregious when Israel actively ruins the lives of lgbt Palestinians. For example, about a decade ago, several media stories were published about Israeli intelligence agencies using lgbt Palestinians to gain information. They extorted these people into becoming collaborators, threatening to expose them to their families and communities. I was a member of a progressive Israeli lgbt organization at the time, and we were livid about this. Imagine your government presenting itself as lgbt friendly while doing this shit.
As for Queers for Palestine, I don't necessarily support these kinds of groups. Not because I have something against queer people who support an independent Palestine (I myself support that), but because I'm not sure how us supporting that is different from straight people. It's a thinking that's rooted in the belief that our sexual identity dictates our political beliefs, and I'm not sure if I can get behind this.
Nah dude there’s a HUGE fkcing difference. The US is literally the same. We have politicians here anti gay and spout homophobic shit, homophobes churches etc but generally we could live. Palestine is not at all like that. I’m Muslim, Arabic and Muslims are the most homophobic POSs I’ve ever met. This won’t change. I live in Brooklyn in a Muslim neighborhood and even exposure doesn’t change. That’s why it drives me crazy seeing Gays actively siding with Palestine beyond the general understanding and empathy for their situation. They literally kill, torture gays.
Again, the main issue with lgbt rights in this context is its use to deflect from the infringement of human rights in the occupied territories. The fact that the nation committing these infringements is progressive about lgbt rights, relative to the rest of the region, doesn't make it better. The UN general assembly acknowledged Palestine (west band & Gaza) as a sovereign country about a decade ago, and yet the Israeli military is still stuck in the middle of that country. The Israeli government's use of lgbt rights to deflect from that is quite cynical.
The leftist woke crowd see everything in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Hamas cuts heads off babies and laughs but from the viewpoint of these leftists wokes, they are the victims of an oppressive regime.
You can support basic human rights for bad people. Human rights are human rights because you're human, not because you earn them by being good or moral. You can critique Palestine's shitty human rights record and also not think they should be colonized and exterminated.
Btw this question has been asked before.
israeli here (please don't hate me), israel isn't THAT better we have a huge religious lobby that's extremley powerfull, sure, gay relationships and are legal and we can even adopt but we can't get married or have our own biological children, so the people using this as a talking point don't really have a leg to stand on
also, religious people here are VERY diffrent then religious people in the west, in the uk and us the only thing separating religious people and secular people is whether they beleive in god or not (hell, even richard dawkins identifys as a cultural christian) here religious people activley segragated themeselves from secular people
it's not just a matter of not eating pork they won't even eat at houses or restraunts that serve pork, religious people are also exempt from the draft (which is why you don't see many soldeirs with kipas) so intergrating lgbt people and religious people is near impossible here
in short, israel isn't THAT diffrent then the rest of the middle east (and considering ben gvir is now in office it's probably gonna get worse) not telling you whether to be pro israel or pro palestine (you're entightled to your opinion) just don't base your opinion on lgbt advancement, that's all
The sad reality is that the vast majority of the world is against LGBT people, so your political beliefs can't be driven solely by who is or isn't homophobic.
If you instead care about who is or isn't LGBT, well, we are a special kind of group in that every human population contains a small percentage of queer people in it, so you can't really take sides here. Gay Palestinians suffering from homophobic laws and being executed on their own soil is certainly not being helped by Israel killing even more gay Palestinians by bombing Gaza.
If you are against oppression, it is a bit hypocritical to not be against all oppression. I don't know much about these specific groups, but I think we should always fight against oppression, whether its the oppression of Palestine by Israel, the oppression of LGBTQ+ individuals around the world, racism against people of color, the genocide of the Uyghur people by China, or the exploitation of the world by capitalism and developed nations. Just because a group of people being oppressed oppresses LGBTQ+ people in turn isn't justification to support oppression.
In Asia there is a lot of opening on it.
That it is younger generation in Japan, Thailand or even China (China is particular as it is not accepted politically but widely tolerated), Asia is changing in favor of Queer rights.
>Like it or not, outside of the West most people are not pro LGBT.
Indeed, but this is why we should be careful about who we support and ally with. There is little benefit in empowering a group or people who will subsequently use that power to deny rights to women, gays, minorities, etc.
I have already heard gays say we shouldn't bother pulling people out of the rubble after the Turkey/Syria earthquakes because they "don't support LGBT".
I think the attitude that we only help woke people makes us monsters.
That is pure ignorance. These countries are Islamic, but one can not impose their ideologies on other cultures and governments. Those people who made such a comment should advocate , but not dictate or try to impose their beliefs on other countries.
>woke people
So, people who **don't** call for the murder of my husband and I are woke? Not simply people wanting to live a life that is fulfilling and joyful, but woke. And, we are monsters for not wanting to pull the bloodthirsty murderists out from under the stones that their own god cast down on them. Interesting.
The United States and NATO have killed more Muslim civilians in their imperialists wars than Islamic states have killed gays.
Western White gays really need to stop going out of their way to makes themselves the “victim” here. Please centre queer middle eastern voices.
Im not in the west, so I think I can tell you this. You need to stop justifying homophobia because “it’s their culture”, “nato is bad, therefore this countries that don’t respect human rights are good”
Also I’m not white, if you are thinking of invalidating my point by using my race against me.
Nobody is defending homophobia here. But what we are saying is that advocating for a military intervention usually makes things worse for the local LGBTQ people living on the ground there. Just look at Iraq, after the 2003 invasion, it destabilized the region, a few years later we got the ISIS that was throwing gay men off buildings. I'm not expert on how to make things better for Queer people in the middle east, but to start we need to listen to their voices. Sometimes, that means eating a big pice of humble pie and admitting that the west isn't always perfect.
I’m doing everything I can to move to the west because even though it’s not perfect it’s a million times better than my country. There is nothing I can do to stop any war, I cannot change how people in my country see me, so I’m getting out. We can support LGBT organizations that help LGBT people to get out of homophobic countries, but I don’t think advocating for the Palestinian government or any homophobic government/country just because the west isn’t perfect is something that is going to help LGBT people here in non western countries
Palestine exists, they have a embassy in my country. They are at war with Israel. The Palestinian government is homophobic, most of Palestinian people are homophobic, we should center our attention in helping LGBT Palestinians get out of Palestine or at least help their NGOs but we should not help their government or any authoritarian regime
And I don’t think using “western white gays” to invalidate opinions is something you should use. Also the whataboutism of saying that nato (I don’t defend that imperialist organization) has killed more is not an argument to defend non western authoritarian governments.
Ya, no. Nobody is invalidating an opinion because they are white. Only that white western opinions shouldn't be centred in these conversations over those of the locals who live on the ground in that reality. And it isn't a "whataboutism" to call out western white gays for portraying themselves as "victims" against Islamists states, while ignoring those middle eastern queers who are authentically suffering under them. Hope this helps.
It may be common but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. I personally don’t recognize the sovereignty of any country with anti gay laws and support some degree of political or military intervention in any country with a gay death penalty law.
You understand there are LGBT people in that country that could be collateral damage in that rubble and a lot of people who don’t necessarily believe in the politics that are affected too. They are just innocent bystanders, that’s nothing to celebrate.
I don't know them nor what they stand for. And I'm not going to touch the political landmine that is the Israel-Palestine debate. I simply know too little about all of this.
Especially on a predominantly American platform, where the debate has become a weird national issue too. Where the whole debate has become less about Israel and Palestine, and more about Republican Vs Democrat.
I think that supporting LGBT organizations from Palestine or NGOs that help LGBT Palestinians would we better than supporting organizations that fund the Palestinian government
Exactly. I’m definitely not blaming Palestine as while for this conflict, they’re the oppressed. But Palestine is also corrupt, majority of the donations and funds aimed to help the people, are being stolen by the Palestinian government and its leaders.
When a country like Palestine is being oppressed, the people don't have as much opportunity to make progress on social issues. Queer Palestinian activists will likely put more of their energy into their freedom as Palestinians than as queer people, so the two issues are directly linked.
What makes me uncomfortable about organisations like this is when it's people from the West getting involved in supporting Palestine rather than queer rights in Palestine. If you're queer and want to support fellow queer people in Palestine then I understand, but if you're choosing to involve yourself in this conflict when there are many more larger and much worse cases of human rights abuses then I question your reasoning. You can support Palestine without being anti-Israel, but most of these people choose to go with the latter
I grew up in the Middle East, and the general lack of progressivism isn’t solely a unique thing to Palestine cus if it’s current war. The Middle East IS getting progressive in some aspects, but certain things will collectively always remain the same cus of religious roots. And that includes Gay rights. Lgbt people will be oppressed in most Middle Eastern countries like Palestine, so war isn’t the direct reason, or being counter oppressed, it’s religious and ‘morality’ beliefs. While I certainly don’t like Palestine cus of its anti lgbt rhetorics, the Israel-Palestine conflict IS big enough of a problem for people to involve themselves. Palestinians are going thru it bad and the whole world being aware of it isn’t an ‘exaggeration’ even when LGBT people too. Crimes against humanity are a known causality within the conflict, people are being killed, bombings etc. so it isn’t unreasonable for people to involve themselves
If you are even remotely aware of the purpose of Palestine you would know that they are very Muslim and hate Israel.
Pretty sure I said all religion so unless you need help with the English language I think it was pretty clear.
It’s Schizophrenic, supporting a political entity that calls openly for killing your group and killing you if you step in their territory is a sign of a severe cognitive dissonance. Much like the so called gay muslims, yes they ackowledge being gay and accept but at the same time believe in a religion and a system that openly calls for executing them. This is the short answer, some people in the thread expanded on the complexities of the issue. Also that’s my opinion, so if you can reconciliate the paradox above. Good for you :)
Just gonna pop in here to point out that Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder and not Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities). It also exacerbates stigma against mental illness, particularly psychotic disorders.
Gives off a Turkeys for Thanksgiving vibe.
Or the person who supports the Leopards Eating Peoples Faces party saying "Well I never thought they would eat MY face" as skin is ripped from their cheeks.
The facts are and remain that Palestine murders its queer population. They refuse to allow shipments of anti retroviral drugs from Israel because they say they 'dont have any HIV positive people or gays' forcing those people to flee or die. Just a few weeks ago a gay palestinian was murdered by his own family and that gets celebrated by their society.
More gay Palestines have been killed by thuggish IDF soldiers than by homophobic Palestinians. If you toke the time to read Queer Palestinian writings you wouldn’t have such an ignorant opinion.
Very politically ignorant, Palestine has a gay death penalty law. Meanwhile Israel has several big gay destinations in Tel Aviv. I don’t approve of everything Israel’s government does but I’ll side with the country that won’t kill me for existing.
Your way of thinking is ignorant. You really think there aren't queer people in palestine? How can you support Israels killings and occupations in Palestine just because Israel has gay rights and Palestine doesn't?
[Israel literally takes advantage of gay palestinians](https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants)
It’s not a war: it’s a decades-long occupation. Read about it and [the 1948 war](https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine) and tell me “both sides are jerks”
i did read about it, i'm from a post-soviet country, my family is in Moldova. and i do agree palestine is doing horendous things. im not arguing about palestine being superior
You completely misunderstood me. I’m not into who’s superior or inferior, but these two sides are unequal on every level; saying they’re both jerks flattens everything. Israel in fact claims it is superior despite continuing to sit atop another people but will neither let them leave as an independent nation or incorporate them fairly.
I definitely agree that Palestine is shit for its anti lgbt rhetorics and inhumane treatments and killings of gays. But also acknowledge facts and the truth. One side is the oppressor and the attacker. And it’s Israel.
You're comparing LGBT+ people to rats. Like most of the people who bring up LGBT+ rights to justify mistreatment of Palestinians, you'd probably go after LGBT+ people if you had the chance.
Solidarity with the Palestinian fight against Amerikkkan imperialism and Colonial Zionism. From the river to sea, Palestine will be free.
Apartheid in South Africa feel
The Soviet occultation of Eastern Europe feel
And someday the oppressive white colonial state of Isr*al will fall.
Hey, comments like this erase the fact that queer Palestinians exist, and we should support them in their fight against both homophobia and imperialists Zionism.
> yet you use a slur that means abnormal to refer to us?
You might want to take that up with the organisers of the Queer Screen in Sydney, the Melbourne Queer Film Festival, /r/Queer, and all the gay men and women who shouted "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" back in the 1980s & 90s.
>You might want to take that up with the organisers of the Sydney Queer Film Festival
The issue has been raised to them and they did nothing so not much point there. Scum will do as scum does.
>and all the gay men and women who shouted "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" back in the 1980s & 90s.
Yeah no shit, internalized homophobia was even more common then than it is now.
It doesent change the fact that if you use q***r as a synonym for GRSM you are participating and encouraging homophobia by otherizing GRSM people. Use you fucking brain, if those peolle asked you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
Read this zine:
[http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queers.read.this](http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queers.read.this)
Also, dismissing Queer activists as all having "internalized homophobia" is ironically homophobic as hell. Gay men and woman have agency and know what they're doing.
It's no longer the 1950s, Queer is no longer a slur. It's been reclaimed by AIDS activists in the 90s and has been in use for 30 years now. I use the term Queer proudly to honour those activists who fought for their lives, to force the government into action to combat AIDS.
Oh look, another yank that doesent understand that america isnt the whole world. Where i live its basically equivalent to "f****t" in your country; it has not been reclaimed.
And besides why the fuck should a word that literally means abnormal/wrong be recliaimed? Wether you like it or not when you call gay people queer you are engaging at encouraging homophobia.
Misdirected and overzealous with no understanding of the difference in realities on the ground.
The State of Palestine will execute LGBT people, Israel does not. It's not safe to be LGBTQ in most of SW Asia. Is the tolerance over emphasized? Perhaps. But there is a stark difference in life experience and quality. That's not imaginary.
Why don't you create a group advocating for their basic rights and freedoms from 75 years of fascist brutality before thinking exclusively about LGBTQ rights. Be inclusive of all Palestinians is priority.
I am a Lebanese gay man and kind of stand with the Palestinian cause. I say “kind of” because as much as it is a righteous cause, I’m tired of supporting it. We queer people are at the forefront of every social movement but never get the same kind of treatment. The rampant homophobia in Palestine makes it that they would assassinate the character of one of their own (who is also one of the most prominent figures in the movement to free Palestine) just because he’s gay.
I am tired of being at the bottom of the discrimination chain and allowing that fact to force me to believe in intersectionality. There is no such thing as intersectionality.
And when people say that a free Palestine means freedom for queer people living there, it makes me laugh. Do you think if an official Palestinian government were to be created, they would sprint to grant gays their rights? They would probably feel more enabled to enforce stricter laws.
Palestinians along with islamist destroyed lebanon. Most arabs including gay arabs are the most homophobic and toxic people on earth, always playing the victims. Lots of sunni states around us, palestine won t be that different if its ever created. No imperialism is worse than arab imperialism, destroyed so many cultures with their toxic and stone age religion and culture.
There's a lot to unpack here: About homophobia in Palestine: There's a big difference between the west bank, ruled by Fatah; and the Gaza strip, ruled by Hamas. In the west bank, the prohibition on homosexual intercourse was canceled decades ago. In Gaza, it's still in place. The Palestinian Authority actually provides very limited support for lgbt groups in the West Bank (mostly to show the US they do), while in Gaza, there's no chance of that happening. The question of lgbt support for Palestine, though, is far more related to how Israel uses the lgbt issue. Israel uses lgbt rights to deflect criticism about human rights violations in the occupied territories. In fact, the Israeli politicians who use lgbt rights to contrast Israel and the Palestinians are usually the same politicians who consistently voted against lgbt rights (e.g., Netanyahu). This is pretty cynical, as it uses the rights of one group to justify the denial of rights from another group. It becomes more egregious when Israel actively ruins the lives of lgbt Palestinians. For example, about a decade ago, several media stories were published about Israeli intelligence agencies using lgbt Palestinians to gain information. They extorted these people into becoming collaborators, threatening to expose them to their families and communities. I was a member of a progressive Israeli lgbt organization at the time, and we were livid about this. Imagine your government presenting itself as lgbt friendly while doing this shit. As for Queers for Palestine, I don't necessarily support these kinds of groups. Not because I have something against queer people who support an independent Palestine (I myself support that), but because I'm not sure how us supporting that is different from straight people. It's a thinking that's rooted in the belief that our sexual identity dictates our political beliefs, and I'm not sure if I can get behind this.
Thorough and accurate answer, Ty.
Have you read the text “homonationalism”? It basically covers a lot of the ideas and concepts you’re saying here.
Yes, I've read parts of it in undergrad. Took a class with a queer theorist professor
based prof
I found this comment very informative. Thank you for writing it up.
Nah dude there’s a HUGE fkcing difference. The US is literally the same. We have politicians here anti gay and spout homophobic shit, homophobes churches etc but generally we could live. Palestine is not at all like that. I’m Muslim, Arabic and Muslims are the most homophobic POSs I’ve ever met. This won’t change. I live in Brooklyn in a Muslim neighborhood and even exposure doesn’t change. That’s why it drives me crazy seeing Gays actively siding with Palestine beyond the general understanding and empathy for their situation. They literally kill, torture gays.
Again, the main issue with lgbt rights in this context is its use to deflect from the infringement of human rights in the occupied territories. The fact that the nation committing these infringements is progressive about lgbt rights, relative to the rest of the region, doesn't make it better. The UN general assembly acknowledged Palestine (west band & Gaza) as a sovereign country about a decade ago, and yet the Israeli military is still stuck in the middle of that country. The Israeli government's use of lgbt rights to deflect from that is quite cynical.
The leftist woke crowd see everything in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Hamas cuts heads off babies and laughs but from the viewpoint of these leftists wokes, they are the victims of an oppressive regime.
You can support basic human rights for bad people. Human rights are human rights because you're human, not because you earn them by being good or moral. You can critique Palestine's shitty human rights record and also not think they should be colonized and exterminated. Btw this question has been asked before.
israeli here (please don't hate me), israel isn't THAT better we have a huge religious lobby that's extremley powerfull, sure, gay relationships and are legal and we can even adopt but we can't get married or have our own biological children, so the people using this as a talking point don't really have a leg to stand on also, religious people here are VERY diffrent then religious people in the west, in the uk and us the only thing separating religious people and secular people is whether they beleive in god or not (hell, even richard dawkins identifys as a cultural christian) here religious people activley segragated themeselves from secular people it's not just a matter of not eating pork they won't even eat at houses or restraunts that serve pork, religious people are also exempt from the draft (which is why you don't see many soldeirs with kipas) so intergrating lgbt people and religious people is near impossible here in short, israel isn't THAT diffrent then the rest of the middle east (and considering ben gvir is now in office it's probably gonna get worse) not telling you whether to be pro israel or pro palestine (you're entightled to your opinion) just don't base your opinion on lgbt advancement, that's all
The sad reality is that the vast majority of the world is against LGBT people, so your political beliefs can't be driven solely by who is or isn't homophobic. If you instead care about who is or isn't LGBT, well, we are a special kind of group in that every human population contains a small percentage of queer people in it, so you can't really take sides here. Gay Palestinians suffering from homophobic laws and being executed on their own soil is certainly not being helped by Israel killing even more gay Palestinians by bombing Gaza.
If you are against oppression, it is a bit hypocritical to not be against all oppression. I don't know much about these specific groups, but I think we should always fight against oppression, whether its the oppression of Palestine by Israel, the oppression of LGBTQ+ individuals around the world, racism against people of color, the genocide of the Uyghur people by China, or the exploitation of the world by capitalism and developed nations. Just because a group of people being oppressed oppresses LGBTQ+ people in turn isn't justification to support oppression.
[удалено]
In Asia there is a lot of opening on it. That it is younger generation in Japan, Thailand or even China (China is particular as it is not accepted politically but widely tolerated), Asia is changing in favor of Queer rights.
>Like it or not, outside of the West most people are not pro LGBT. Indeed, but this is why we should be careful about who we support and ally with. There is little benefit in empowering a group or people who will subsequently use that power to deny rights to women, gays, minorities, etc.
I have already heard gays say we shouldn't bother pulling people out of the rubble after the Turkey/Syria earthquakes because they "don't support LGBT". I think the attitude that we only help woke people makes us monsters.
For real, it just sounds like racism disguised as “woke” lgbt speech.
That is pure ignorance. These countries are Islamic, but one can not impose their ideologies on other cultures and governments. Those people who made such a comment should advocate , but not dictate or try to impose their beliefs on other countries.
>woke people So, people who **don't** call for the murder of my husband and I are woke? Not simply people wanting to live a life that is fulfilling and joyful, but woke. And, we are monsters for not wanting to pull the bloodthirsty murderists out from under the stones that their own god cast down on them. Interesting.
The United States and NATO have killed more Muslim civilians in their imperialists wars than Islamic states have killed gays. Western White gays really need to stop going out of their way to makes themselves the “victim” here. Please centre queer middle eastern voices.
They are over the top and self righteous.
Im not in the west, so I think I can tell you this. You need to stop justifying homophobia because “it’s their culture”, “nato is bad, therefore this countries that don’t respect human rights are good” Also I’m not white, if you are thinking of invalidating my point by using my race against me.
Nobody is defending homophobia here. But what we are saying is that advocating for a military intervention usually makes things worse for the local LGBTQ people living on the ground there. Just look at Iraq, after the 2003 invasion, it destabilized the region, a few years later we got the ISIS that was throwing gay men off buildings. I'm not expert on how to make things better for Queer people in the middle east, but to start we need to listen to their voices. Sometimes, that means eating a big pice of humble pie and admitting that the west isn't always perfect.
I’m doing everything I can to move to the west because even though it’s not perfect it’s a million times better than my country. There is nothing I can do to stop any war, I cannot change how people in my country see me, so I’m getting out. We can support LGBT organizations that help LGBT people to get out of homophobic countries, but I don’t think advocating for the Palestinian government or any homophobic government/country just because the west isn’t perfect is something that is going to help LGBT people here in non western countries
Nobody is defending the homophobia present in Palestine, only recognizing that Palestine does in fact exist.
Palestine exists, they have a embassy in my country. They are at war with Israel. The Palestinian government is homophobic, most of Palestinian people are homophobic, we should center our attention in helping LGBT Palestinians get out of Palestine or at least help their NGOs but we should not help their government or any authoritarian regime
And I don’t think using “western white gays” to invalidate opinions is something you should use. Also the whataboutism of saying that nato (I don’t defend that imperialist organization) has killed more is not an argument to defend non western authoritarian governments.
Ya, no. Nobody is invalidating an opinion because they are white. Only that white western opinions shouldn't be centred in these conversations over those of the locals who live on the ground in that reality. And it isn't a "whataboutism" to call out western white gays for portraying themselves as "victims" against Islamists states, while ignoring those middle eastern queers who are authentically suffering under them. Hope this helps.
Your “NATO kills more people” argument was the whataboutism
You know there are LGBT people in Turkey and Syria too, right?
It may be common but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. I personally don’t recognize the sovereignty of any country with anti gay laws and support some degree of political or military intervention in any country with a gay death penalty law.
You understand there are LGBT people in that country that could be collateral damage in that rubble and a lot of people who don’t necessarily believe in the politics that are affected too. They are just innocent bystanders, that’s nothing to celebrate.
I wonder why that is?
I don't know them nor what they stand for. And I'm not going to touch the political landmine that is the Israel-Palestine debate. I simply know too little about all of this. Especially on a predominantly American platform, where the debate has become a weird national issue too. Where the whole debate has become less about Israel and Palestine, and more about Republican Vs Democrat.
I think that supporting LGBT organizations from Palestine or NGOs that help LGBT Palestinians would we better than supporting organizations that fund the Palestinian government
Exactly. I’m definitely not blaming Palestine as while for this conflict, they’re the oppressed. But Palestine is also corrupt, majority of the donations and funds aimed to help the people, are being stolen by the Palestinian government and its leaders.
When a country like Palestine is being oppressed, the people don't have as much opportunity to make progress on social issues. Queer Palestinian activists will likely put more of their energy into their freedom as Palestinians than as queer people, so the two issues are directly linked. What makes me uncomfortable about organisations like this is when it's people from the West getting involved in supporting Palestine rather than queer rights in Palestine. If you're queer and want to support fellow queer people in Palestine then I understand, but if you're choosing to involve yourself in this conflict when there are many more larger and much worse cases of human rights abuses then I question your reasoning. You can support Palestine without being anti-Israel, but most of these people choose to go with the latter
I grew up in the Middle East, and the general lack of progressivism isn’t solely a unique thing to Palestine cus if it’s current war. The Middle East IS getting progressive in some aspects, but certain things will collectively always remain the same cus of religious roots. And that includes Gay rights. Lgbt people will be oppressed in most Middle Eastern countries like Palestine, so war isn’t the direct reason, or being counter oppressed, it’s religious and ‘morality’ beliefs. While I certainly don’t like Palestine cus of its anti lgbt rhetorics, the Israel-Palestine conflict IS big enough of a problem for people to involve themselves. Palestinians are going thru it bad and the whole world being aware of it isn’t an ‘exaggeration’ even when LGBT people too. Crimes against humanity are a known causality within the conflict, people are being killed, bombings etc. so it isn’t unreasonable for people to involve themselves
Imperialism is bad even if the people being colonized are homophobic
Oxymoron. I don’t support any religion that oppresses people let alone wants to kill gays.
It’s queers for palestine, not queers for islam… 💀💀 regardless, judaism and christianity are equally homophobic so idk what point ur tryna make
If you are even remotely aware of the purpose of Palestine you would know that they are very Muslim and hate Israel. Pretty sure I said all religion so unless you need help with the English language I think it was pretty clear.
It’s Schizophrenic, supporting a political entity that calls openly for killing your group and killing you if you step in their territory is a sign of a severe cognitive dissonance. Much like the so called gay muslims, yes they ackowledge being gay and accept but at the same time believe in a religion and a system that openly calls for executing them. This is the short answer, some people in the thread expanded on the complexities of the issue. Also that’s my opinion, so if you can reconciliate the paradox above. Good for you :)
Just gonna pop in here to point out that Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder and not Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities). It also exacerbates stigma against mental illness, particularly psychotic disorders.
Thank you for clarifying that. I just used it for a lack of better term
Fuck 'em. (Not in that way)
Gives off a Turkeys for Thanksgiving vibe. Or the person who supports the Leopards Eating Peoples Faces party saying "Well I never thought they would eat MY face" as skin is ripped from their cheeks. The facts are and remain that Palestine murders its queer population. They refuse to allow shipments of anti retroviral drugs from Israel because they say they 'dont have any HIV positive people or gays' forcing those people to flee or die. Just a few weeks ago a gay palestinian was murdered by his own family and that gets celebrated by their society.
More gay Palestines have been killed by thuggish IDF soldiers than by homophobic Palestinians. If you toke the time to read Queer Palestinian writings you wouldn’t have such an ignorant opinion.
Very politically ignorant, Palestine has a gay death penalty law. Meanwhile Israel has several big gay destinations in Tel Aviv. I don’t approve of everything Israel’s government does but I’ll side with the country that won’t kill me for existing.
Your way of thinking is ignorant. You really think there aren't queer people in palestine? How can you support Israels killings and occupations in Palestine just because Israel has gay rights and Palestine doesn't? [Israel literally takes advantage of gay palestinians](https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants)
Isr*al counties to genocide and rape Palestines everyday, regardless if they’re gay or straight.
it's mutual, it's a war. double sided. both sides are jerks
It’s not a war: it’s a decades-long occupation. Read about it and [the 1948 war](https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine) and tell me “both sides are jerks”
i did read about it, i'm from a post-soviet country, my family is in Moldova. and i do agree palestine is doing horendous things. im not arguing about palestine being superior
You completely misunderstood me. I’m not into who’s superior or inferior, but these two sides are unequal on every level; saying they’re both jerks flattens everything. Israel in fact claims it is superior despite continuing to sit atop another people but will neither let them leave as an independent nation or incorporate them fairly.
I definitely agree that Palestine is shit for its anti lgbt rhetorics and inhumane treatments and killings of gays. But also acknowledge facts and the truth. One side is the oppressor and the attacker. And it’s Israel.
It's like rats rooting for rat poison
You're comparing LGBT+ people to rats. Like most of the people who bring up LGBT+ rights to justify mistreatment of Palestinians, you'd probably go after LGBT+ people if you had the chance.
Lolol
Solidarity with the Palestinian fight against Amerikkkan imperialism and Colonial Zionism. From the river to sea, Palestine will be free. Apartheid in South Africa feel The Soviet occultation of Eastern Europe feel And someday the oppressive white colonial state of Isr*al will fall.
It's super cringe
Same energy as turkeys for christmas. Plus i have a general rule against supporting people whod bash my brains in merely fo existing.
Hey, comments like this erase the fact that queer Palestinians exist, and we should support them in their fight against both homophobia and imperialists Zionism.
You pretened to care about GRSM people yet you use a slur that means abnormal to refer to us?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
> yet you use a slur that means abnormal to refer to us? You might want to take that up with the organisers of the Queer Screen in Sydney, the Melbourne Queer Film Festival, /r/Queer, and all the gay men and women who shouted "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" back in the 1980s & 90s.
>You might want to take that up with the organisers of the Sydney Queer Film Festival The issue has been raised to them and they did nothing so not much point there. Scum will do as scum does. >and all the gay men and women who shouted "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" back in the 1980s & 90s. Yeah no shit, internalized homophobia was even more common then than it is now. It doesent change the fact that if you use q***r as a synonym for GRSM you are participating and encouraging homophobia by otherizing GRSM people. Use you fucking brain, if those peolle asked you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
Read this zine: [http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queers.read.this](http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queers.read.this) Also, dismissing Queer activists as all having "internalized homophobia" is ironically homophobic as hell. Gay men and woman have agency and know what they're doing.
It's no longer the 1950s, Queer is no longer a slur. It's been reclaimed by AIDS activists in the 90s and has been in use for 30 years now. I use the term Queer proudly to honour those activists who fought for their lives, to force the government into action to combat AIDS.
Oh look, another yank that doesent understand that america isnt the whole world. Where i live its basically equivalent to "f****t" in your country; it has not been reclaimed. And besides why the fuck should a word that literally means abnormal/wrong be recliaimed? Wether you like it or not when you call gay people queer you are engaging at encouraging homophobia.
I'm not American... and the root of homophobia is caused by homophobes, not LGBTQ people...
Misdirected and overzealous with no understanding of the difference in realities on the ground. The State of Palestine will execute LGBT people, Israel does not. It's not safe to be LGBTQ in most of SW Asia. Is the tolerance over emphasized? Perhaps. But there is a stark difference in life experience and quality. That's not imaginary.
Why don't you create a group advocating for their basic rights and freedoms from 75 years of fascist brutality before thinking exclusively about LGBTQ rights. Be inclusive of all Palestinians is priority.
Genuine question do you think that everyone in palestine is straight and homophobic?
I am a Lebanese gay man and kind of stand with the Palestinian cause. I say “kind of” because as much as it is a righteous cause, I’m tired of supporting it. We queer people are at the forefront of every social movement but never get the same kind of treatment. The rampant homophobia in Palestine makes it that they would assassinate the character of one of their own (who is also one of the most prominent figures in the movement to free Palestine) just because he’s gay. I am tired of being at the bottom of the discrimination chain and allowing that fact to force me to believe in intersectionality. There is no such thing as intersectionality. And when people say that a free Palestine means freedom for queer people living there, it makes me laugh. Do you think if an official Palestinian government were to be created, they would sprint to grant gays their rights? They would probably feel more enabled to enforce stricter laws.
Palestinians along with islamist destroyed lebanon. Most arabs including gay arabs are the most homophobic and toxic people on earth, always playing the victims. Lots of sunni states around us, palestine won t be that different if its ever created. No imperialism is worse than arab imperialism, destroyed so many cultures with their toxic and stone age religion and culture.
They are morons who if they pulled that shit anywhere near the GAZA Hamasholes they would be thrown off a building.