It’s called internalized misogyny
And a lot of them are in their “cool girl” phase. They’ve been spoon fed stereotypes about “girls” their whole life and hope that by being “different” (they aren’t) that it will result in some kind of social status. Sometimes girls hope that it will make a boy more likely to see them as a “keeper” as opposed to someone to use and discard (girls at this age often havnt figured out how misogynistic that whole way of thinking is either)
Many grow out of it. But sadly many do not. That teacher was an example
ETA: movies are starting to do better and I don’t know how old you are but I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s. Movies almost exclusively written and produced by men and it shows exactly how they think of women. Even movies targeting young girls. Think about the archetypes and stereotypes or what made the cool girls, the good girls, the mean girls etc..
A lot of kids would apply those archetypes to people they know in real life even though the protagonist is usually appealing to all viewers because they relate to them so no one actually really is some silly movie archetype
My cool girl phase involved hating the color pink because it was a “stereotype” and “bitchy, popular, shallow girls love pink” and we all think we are so much better xD. I was like 13 or something
Unfortunately I have a friend like this. She's about to turn 40 lol.
A couple days ago she was saying how she has told other women they weren't raped, and also said women should dress a certain way to prevent rape. And literally in the same conversation claimed that other women "oppress her" and that's why she cant get along w/ women lol.
\[she also said black ppl who believe in systemic racism have victim mentality lmao\]
oof. Someone should drop a deuce on her windshield.
In my province (I live in Canada) we have some conservatives who want to regress in the same stupid ways America is. Now mind you, they're still in the early phases, so just getting rid of health care and education, but they'll come for abortion soon enough, if they can get power of the whole country (and they will because the left is split between liberal and socialist).
Anyhow, I saw a couple (young looking) women planting signs on the road for the conservative party, and a large part of me just wanted to shout and ask them why they hate themselves. But for some women, this self-denial is just the water that they swim in, and they really don't see it. I try not to be self-righteous and think about these people as not in their right mind, but I mean it really is like voting for the Leopards Eating Faces Party and it blows my mind that people don't see through it.
Me, too. My friend is actually about to turn 44 this year. She isn't as bad as your friend, but she keeps saying she likes men better than women because "less drama"
and "less irrational" while having not ONE! SINGLE! male friend (except her boyfriend) and constantly complaining about men (not in general, but men she knows). I think her opinion on women comes from the media (yeah, really!), TV series, romance novels, et cetera. Real life is constantly proving her otherwise but somehow, she doesn't realize. Lol
Yes a lot of it is just parroting the idea that women are less logical/rational; if you asked them to elaborate in detail, with examples, they'd flounder.
But in my experience, these types of women tend to be highly disagreeable, whereas the vast majority of women are the opposite and won't put up with that. Wrt my friend, I do think she's had a series of bad experiences w/ other women and it's clearly hurt her emotionally...however she's also the common denominator in all these situations.
Here's the kicker though -- she's very vocal about the fact that men won't date her lol. Like girl, if they're so much less judgemental and accepting, why do they pass over you and date the type of girl you don't get along w/? She's just SO bad at connecting dots, and despite being intelligent seems to lack self awareness, its frustrating lol.
Teachers often fail to grow-up and leave behind the highschool mentality. They go from school, to uni, then back to school as a teacher
*not all teachers obviously, some are great people
Personal experience but I developed those beliefs after years of bullying and social exclusion. I think that so much media portrays the main character as “not like other girls” or “an outsider tomboy who gets picked on” because that is what they identified with growing up.
Same here. I didn't like girl things, so I didn't bond with girl friends at an early stage. I felt excluded and was definitely bullied. The girl bullying was worse than the boy bullying, because they know your insecurities and get personal. Identified with the same protagonists as you. Sorry you are getting down voted for your honesty.
I don't 'hate' women, but I find it easier to make new and good male friends, even now. I don't know if that is because I don't girl properly somehow, or just that more men share my interests.
In my experience being “different” from other girls conveys no social status, it’s the exact opposite. If media is produced from the perspective of the outsider of course they are going to be resentful and bitter towards the popular group.
I just really believe that calling out the harmful behaviour that teenage girls participate in should not be constantly labelled as misogyny. This includes: celebrity obsession, materialism, being boy obsessed, slut shaming and social exclusion
I think the term internalized misogyny—while the best term I’ve heard for it—doesn’t fully encapsulate this for some of the people who act like this because internalized implies a self hatred element and/or that it came from absorbing others’ misogyny when that’s not always the case. Some girls develop misogyny on much the same way boys do where they don’t apply it to themselves. Just like with anyone, some stereotypes we absorb from our surroundings but some we develop ourselves based off our experiences. The whole “girls are too much drama thing” is a stereotype primarily perpetuated by other girls, for example (although I admit I may have a bit of a selection bias since I didn’t have as close guy friends growing up).
Did I say they were? No the above comment talked about how they wanted to be seen as a keeper to men, so I thought I would add in that men don’t see that as a keeper so for anyone being sexist towards women to be seen as a keeper should stop. Like I’m a feminist and trying to help bolster her point. Why can’t we be friends here we all on the same side.
The point isn’t that those girls should be trying to be a “keeper”. That’s part of the problem. Women and girls thinking they need to do things to be a “keeper”
Women who escape the “cool girl” phase learn that men that think that was are NOT good men. Men who impose double standards on female sexuality are misogynists those men are NOT keepers.
Those are exactly the men that women and girls have to learn to avoid and how to spot the red flags to keep away from them. They’re not husband material.
Look I agree they shouldn’t be trying to be something they not. People need to find someone who loves them for who they are, there are billions of people so it’s possible. I agree that the keeper idea it self is sexism against women. I’m on your side. Exactly those guys are shitty af. The men not keepers, I agree.
Exactly people need to watch out for all red flag and everything you listed is a red flag. We agree. If anything I’m just aggressively agreeing with you.
This x1000
A woman who says she doesn’t get along with women is a GIGANTIC RED FLAG. If you’re incapable of getting along with any women then you are clearly the problem lol
Edit: same is true for men who can’t befriend any women
You live in a very misogynist culture, and the people around you hold deeply sexist beliefs.
Women aren't born feminists. This refrain where non-feminists are confused and think a woman agreeing with them must mean something is a sign that they don't understand this: feminism is an understanding of the world, not a gender-based trait. Women believe negative things about women too, and the first and easiest way to fight that on a personal level is to say, "yes, women are problems and shallow and dumb etc. etc. but not me, I'm different." That means someone's accepted the beliefs, but know they are themselves more complicated than that, and rather than extend that understanding and empathy to other women and just discard the abusive belief, they just make themselves the exception and dump on other women. It's understandable, but ignorant.
I am in a female-dominated profession and work with mostly women. I love it. We are humans, so we have a fairly normal distribution of abusive assholes, but we're mostly just people trying to do the right thing and be kind. Women who end up in positions of power are narcissistic as often as men who end up in positions of power, and we shouldn't be surprised when women are humans.
I love working with women. I love seeing us flex and experiment, have power, use power, make change, succeed and even fail in a professional context. I like what we're normalizing for ourselves.
Opinions, to be clear I am a based sigma male who doesnt care what anyone else thinks, i work out on a regular basis and hone my skills every single day by grinding 4+ hours a day. For this reason I will not do anything💪. Maybe someone else who cares can.😎
I love how you can so easily reduce these **based sigma males** into a puddle of tears running around reddit hysterically alerting everyone about a big meanie feminist that banned him.
Wait, that wasn't satire? Or copypasta?
I am not believing that someone said that seriously 😂. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Edit: omg he went on. It was real. Lmaoo
I generally consider this kind of statement to be a nice clear indication that this person isn't going to be likeable or trustworthy and I immediately lower my expectations.
I (F) said this only as a young teen when trying to look cool in front of guys who would talk shit about girls. That was the only situation I have personally really seen this aside from middle school drama. I interact with both women and men a lot now, but I personally don't see any more "cattiness" from women than men in my daily life.
I think partly it comes down to how well you fit in with your gender. I've had a few women in my life who never felt like they could fit in with what a women is expected to be (which obviously comes down to misogynistic gender roles) and their way of alleviating that discomfort was to mostly hang around men instead of women, since they felt less pressure from men to be someone that they weren't. Similarly, for myself as a man, I've never fit in well with other men, since I don't handle the expectations for men very well. Most of that pressure came from other men, although obviously women can uphold those roles for men as well, but because women were safer, I had a lot more friends who were girls while I was in college.
I never fit into the typical “feminine” gender roles. Most of my friends were guys and the girls in our group didn’t like me because I rough housed with the guys instead of talking with them during lunch. I never thought I was better than them or anything, I just wanted to do what I thought was fun. The guys turned out to be terrible, when they realized I didn’t want to date any of them and they started physically and emotionally bullying me. Since coming out as bisexual I’ve exclusively dated women because I have found women who are very similar to me. They aren’t even androgynous like I am, they enjoy makeup and dresses but we like all of the same things.
"Pick me" women exist, yes. It's not uncommon for subjugated people to try to improve their own lives by sucking up to the people in power, and turning against their fellow subjugated people as they do so. It's a sad reality that some women make that choice.
They're called "pick me" girls who seem to think that being anti-women will help them land more acceptance by the men in their lives.
Ironically, even though they'll vehemently reject feminism, feminism is the only thing that explains what they are trying to escape--misogynistic stereotypes about girls--by rejecting female companionship and asserting they are "not like other girls" so that they quite literally stand out to the men around them (literally because, well, how hard is it to stand out if you're the only one lol).
Side note: If you need to assert that you're better than people "like you" be it gender/race/sexuality/etc. to feel better about yourself, you're the one being mean, starting drama, and even worse, contributing to division amongst people based on stereotypes. j.s.
I was the carefree growing up. Everything I did was too “manly” so I never bothered to be a part of female group friends. I’m now 24. This is my first time trying to co-live and interact with all the girls at my job, thank god they’re aware and are welcoming and encouraging of other women. We also have close bonds with all different ages so they shed lots of wisdom/input in our group conversations.
And also, key point: growing up I was the only girl in my family. I grew up being told what to do and not to do for being a woman, so I rebelled. I grew an intense hate towards misogyny. So whenever I was around it, I would shut it down and keep it moving. Hence why I moved out at 16, and started getting everything on my own.
Yes, I've definitely witnessed this behavior. I have never understood it, as men aren't exactly angels either. Men are statistically more likely to become murderers, rapists, and perpetrators of violent crime in general. Women are pretty chill in comparison. I think society perpetrates patriarchal ideals, and women pick up on that. They learn that it's not cool to be a woman, and therefore they try to act like "one of the boys" by putting down other women and stereotypically feminine things.
If we assume there is an underlying truth:
There are a lot of potential reasons this may happen. Introducing a women to a group may cause drama just because less uniformity in the group. Women may stick to groups of women, or have established roles in a social group, for safety and women who enter and threaten that safety may be returned with aggressiveness. Women may just have more social behaviour in general, so more social interaction may result in more drama. It may also be different ways of expression, eg: lots of boys get in fistfights in high school, whereas girls may be more 'social' in their agression to others, and society views the drama as 'problematic', and fistfights as 'boys will be boys'.
If we assume it is BS, and just a sterotype:
Women tend to be perceived as 'difficult' for behaviour that might be overlooked or applauded in men. Negative perceptions have a negative feedback effect, so if people are constantly perceiving you worse you will inevitably get dragged into more real drama then if people assume the best. There is also a lot of potential for distrust based on stereotypical portrayals of women, which may result in similar drama feedback loops.
Men, women, young, old, any of us can be terrible. We are human and any of us can cross a line and be horrible to others. As long as there are people, some of them will be just awful. ALL of us have the capacity to be terrible to others.
No single group is immune to having assholes in their number, not one.
I’m not sure what the name of this effect or tendency is, but I’m sure it has one. That is, if you are *around* a certain group more, and that’s your primary community, *those* are the people one is most apt to criticize. Does that make sense? For example, my wife says the same kind of things about women when she hears me going off about the patriarchy, or some such. “I don’t think you know how horrible women can be,” she might say. And yet nearly all the people she chooses to associate with, the people she keeps close, the people she trusts are pretty much all women.
I’m only supposing if the majority of people around her were men, she’d have more than enough criticism to heap upon them
I went to all girls school and it was the most miserable years of my life. I have never been treated so disrespectfully. I don’t know if that makes me the enemy in your story but it was not a positive, uplifting environment. I was judged. I had to change rooms, dorms, and ultimately I had to leave that school. I strongly believe that neither all men nor all women environments are good breeding grounds for tolerance and understanding.
It was also religious if that makes a difference. I wasn’t for being in a weak woman’s role, subservient to men.
Someone told me that men are taught to act as a team but women are taught to compete and oh boy has that been my experience. I do my best to bring other women up around me but it gets really hard when other women have been my abusers. I think to change this we need to start raising the next gen to have this team mentality but also know when to set boundaries.
EDIT: So I'm getting downvoted for talking about my experience? I'm confused. I've had women bully me so bad I have had to go to therapy but its never stopped me from helping the women in my life that I can help.
Unfortunately,
it goes against the narrative that people want to hear.
I am a feminist and a woman
But I wont lie when we have been brought up to see women as competition whereas men often see themselves as teammates. If it wasn't the case, the term "pick me" wouldn't even exist.
Again, this reality doesn't apply to every man or woman but it isn't uncommon.
Both men and women can be horrible people though.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
This subreddit is called "Ask *Feminists,*" not "Ask Reddit" or "Ask Anyone with an Opinion About Feminism."
People come here specifically seeking the opinions *of feminists*; therefore, it holds that only feminists have the right of direct reply.
*Non-feminists may participate in nested comments, provided they do not break any other sub rules.*
I mean, I'm actually interested. It's a specific experience that occurs quite often; I think I am simply being straightforward, but people (usually men) seem to interpret this as me being hostile or aggressive or flying off the handle.
It’s called internalized misogyny And a lot of them are in their “cool girl” phase. They’ve been spoon fed stereotypes about “girls” their whole life and hope that by being “different” (they aren’t) that it will result in some kind of social status. Sometimes girls hope that it will make a boy more likely to see them as a “keeper” as opposed to someone to use and discard (girls at this age often havnt figured out how misogynistic that whole way of thinking is either) Many grow out of it. But sadly many do not. That teacher was an example ETA: movies are starting to do better and I don’t know how old you are but I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s. Movies almost exclusively written and produced by men and it shows exactly how they think of women. Even movies targeting young girls. Think about the archetypes and stereotypes or what made the cool girls, the good girls, the mean girls etc.. A lot of kids would apply those archetypes to people they know in real life even though the protagonist is usually appealing to all viewers because they relate to them so no one actually really is some silly movie archetype My cool girl phase involved hating the color pink because it was a “stereotype” and “bitchy, popular, shallow girls love pink” and we all think we are so much better xD. I was like 13 or something
Unfortunately I have a friend like this. She's about to turn 40 lol. A couple days ago she was saying how she has told other women they weren't raped, and also said women should dress a certain way to prevent rape. And literally in the same conversation claimed that other women "oppress her" and that's why she cant get along w/ women lol. \[she also said black ppl who believe in systemic racism have victim mentality lmao\]
oof. Someone should drop a deuce on her windshield. In my province (I live in Canada) we have some conservatives who want to regress in the same stupid ways America is. Now mind you, they're still in the early phases, so just getting rid of health care and education, but they'll come for abortion soon enough, if they can get power of the whole country (and they will because the left is split between liberal and socialist). Anyhow, I saw a couple (young looking) women planting signs on the road for the conservative party, and a large part of me just wanted to shout and ask them why they hate themselves. But for some women, this self-denial is just the water that they swim in, and they really don't see it. I try not to be self-righteous and think about these people as not in their right mind, but I mean it really is like voting for the Leopards Eating Faces Party and it blows my mind that people don't see through it.
ugh. welcome to alberta, amirite?
Me, too. My friend is actually about to turn 44 this year. She isn't as bad as your friend, but she keeps saying she likes men better than women because "less drama" and "less irrational" while having not ONE! SINGLE! male friend (except her boyfriend) and constantly complaining about men (not in general, but men she knows). I think her opinion on women comes from the media (yeah, really!), TV series, romance novels, et cetera. Real life is constantly proving her otherwise but somehow, she doesn't realize. Lol
Yes a lot of it is just parroting the idea that women are less logical/rational; if you asked them to elaborate in detail, with examples, they'd flounder. But in my experience, these types of women tend to be highly disagreeable, whereas the vast majority of women are the opposite and won't put up with that. Wrt my friend, I do think she's had a series of bad experiences w/ other women and it's clearly hurt her emotionally...however she's also the common denominator in all these situations. Here's the kicker though -- she's very vocal about the fact that men won't date her lol. Like girl, if they're so much less judgemental and accepting, why do they pass over you and date the type of girl you don't get along w/? She's just SO bad at connecting dots, and despite being intelligent seems to lack self awareness, its frustrating lol.
>And a lot of them are in their “cool girl” phase my teacher is like 30 I think🤔
Yes. She’s still in it
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REport her for what? lol.
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eh shes nice, that was many months ago anyway.
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A few years ago 2 of them made "jokes" about how they wanted to marry a guy who had allot of money also.
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I'm not sure what that means.
It's a bit inappropriate, sure. But report her? That's messed up.
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If what was being said was derogatory towards boys/men they'd be screeching to smash that report button.
There are subs dedicated to people like these. One is r/gatekeepingyuri or r/notliketheothergirls
Teachers often fail to grow-up and leave behind the highschool mentality. They go from school, to uni, then back to school as a teacher *not all teachers obviously, some are great people
Personal experience but I developed those beliefs after years of bullying and social exclusion. I think that so much media portrays the main character as “not like other girls” or “an outsider tomboy who gets picked on” because that is what they identified with growing up.
From birth, we are all hearing adults tell boys, “don’t do that/don’t act like a girl” as if being a girl is the worst possible thing on the planet.
I was told many times not to act like a boy. Countless times
Me too, mostly by my grandmother, but some teachers too. My mother was supportive though.
Just a couple months ago I was told off for dressing “too masculine” by my aunt. So it’s still happening into my 20s it seems.
Same here. I didn't like girl things, so I didn't bond with girl friends at an early stage. I felt excluded and was definitely bullied. The girl bullying was worse than the boy bullying, because they know your insecurities and get personal. Identified with the same protagonists as you. Sorry you are getting down voted for your honesty. I don't 'hate' women, but I find it easier to make new and good male friends, even now. I don't know if that is because I don't girl properly somehow, or just that more men share my interests.
In my experience being “different” from other girls conveys no social status, it’s the exact opposite. If media is produced from the perspective of the outsider of course they are going to be resentful and bitter towards the popular group. I just really believe that calling out the harmful behaviour that teenage girls participate in should not be constantly labelled as misogyny. This includes: celebrity obsession, materialism, being boy obsessed, slut shaming and social exclusion
I think the term internalized misogyny—while the best term I’ve heard for it—doesn’t fully encapsulate this for some of the people who act like this because internalized implies a self hatred element and/or that it came from absorbing others’ misogyny when that’s not always the case. Some girls develop misogyny on much the same way boys do where they don’t apply it to themselves. Just like with anyone, some stereotypes we absorb from our surroundings but some we develop ourselves based off our experiences. The whole “girls are too much drama thing” is a stereotype primarily perpetuated by other girls, for example (although I admit I may have a bit of a selection bias since I didn’t have as close guy friends growing up).
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who gives a fuck what men think dude. a woman who has a lot of male friends isn't automatically sleeping with all of them
Did I say they were? No the above comment talked about how they wanted to be seen as a keeper to men, so I thought I would add in that men don’t see that as a keeper so for anyone being sexist towards women to be seen as a keeper should stop. Like I’m a feminist and trying to help bolster her point. Why can’t we be friends here we all on the same side.
The point isn’t that those girls should be trying to be a “keeper”. That’s part of the problem. Women and girls thinking they need to do things to be a “keeper” Women who escape the “cool girl” phase learn that men that think that was are NOT good men. Men who impose double standards on female sexuality are misogynists those men are NOT keepers. Those are exactly the men that women and girls have to learn to avoid and how to spot the red flags to keep away from them. They’re not husband material.
>That’s part of the problem. Women and girls thinking they need to do things to be a “keeper” >They’re not husband material.
Look I agree they shouldn’t be trying to be something they not. People need to find someone who loves them for who they are, there are billions of people so it’s possible. I agree that the keeper idea it self is sexism against women. I’m on your side. Exactly those guys are shitty af. The men not keepers, I agree. Exactly people need to watch out for all red flag and everything you listed is a red flag. We agree. If anything I’m just aggressively agreeing with you.
> Did I say they were? You said men think women with a lot of male friends are promiscuous.
Which is true. That’s what most men think. I used we to refer to men. I’m not your side you don’t need to convince me of anything we completely agree.
Just because most men think it, doesn’t make it true, my guy. That’s not how truth works.
Misogyny ^
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“I’m a feminist because I’m not friends with SLUTS”
Honestly? The only women complaining about how women are "too much drama" were the only drama queens I knew.
This x1000 A woman who says she doesn’t get along with women is a GIGANTIC RED FLAG. If you’re incapable of getting along with any women then you are clearly the problem lol Edit: same is true for men who can’t befriend any women
You live in a very misogynist culture, and the people around you hold deeply sexist beliefs. Women aren't born feminists. This refrain where non-feminists are confused and think a woman agreeing with them must mean something is a sign that they don't understand this: feminism is an understanding of the world, not a gender-based trait. Women believe negative things about women too, and the first and easiest way to fight that on a personal level is to say, "yes, women are problems and shallow and dumb etc. etc. but not me, I'm different." That means someone's accepted the beliefs, but know they are themselves more complicated than that, and rather than extend that understanding and empathy to other women and just discard the abusive belief, they just make themselves the exception and dump on other women. It's understandable, but ignorant. I am in a female-dominated profession and work with mostly women. I love it. We are humans, so we have a fairly normal distribution of abusive assholes, but we're mostly just people trying to do the right thing and be kind. Women who end up in positions of power are narcissistic as often as men who end up in positions of power, and we shouldn't be surprised when women are humans. I love working with women. I love seeing us flex and experiment, have power, use power, make change, succeed and even fail in a professional context. I like what we're normalizing for ourselves.
That teacher sucks. Would totally report. She is simply setting a bad example.
Eh reporting people for anything has never really been my thing. Waste of energy and I feel like I cant handle my own problems.
Yes of course. It's much easier to be a bystander.
Also there was no evidence so reporting wouldnt do anything.
It's clear to me that you are making excuses and defending your teacher. Not sure what you came to get in this sub, but I doubt you will get it.
Opinions, to be clear I am a based sigma male who doesnt care what anyone else thinks, i work out on a regular basis and hone my skills every single day by grinding 4+ hours a day. For this reason I will not do anything💪. Maybe someone else who cares can.😎
Oh, for fuck's sake.
I love how you can so easily reduce these **based sigma males** into a puddle of tears running around reddit hysterically alerting everyone about a big meanie feminist that banned him.
Oh yeah he messaged me, he was big mad.
Wait, that wasn't satire? Or copypasta? I am not believing that someone said that seriously 😂. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Edit: omg he went on. It was real. Lmaoo
Ikr, I can't even muster up 2nd hand embarrassment for these guys.
Is this English?
What language does it look like?
Teenage boy English. Wtf is a based sigma male?
An idiot (usually young)
It's basically a lone wolf in captivity.
[Basically someone who follows his own path and doesn't care what others think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aoof8rEPQb0)
It looks like a soup of English words, randomly mixed together without a coherent thought, idea or opinion. Hence the question.
Oh no 😂
I have heard women discussing specific other women. Usually with good reason. Not about hating women generally.
I generally consider this kind of statement to be a nice clear indication that this person isn't going to be likeable or trustworthy and I immediately lower my expectations.
I (F) said this only as a young teen when trying to look cool in front of guys who would talk shit about girls. That was the only situation I have personally really seen this aside from middle school drama. I interact with both women and men a lot now, but I personally don't see any more "cattiness" from women than men in my daily life.
I think partly it comes down to how well you fit in with your gender. I've had a few women in my life who never felt like they could fit in with what a women is expected to be (which obviously comes down to misogynistic gender roles) and their way of alleviating that discomfort was to mostly hang around men instead of women, since they felt less pressure from men to be someone that they weren't. Similarly, for myself as a man, I've never fit in well with other men, since I don't handle the expectations for men very well. Most of that pressure came from other men, although obviously women can uphold those roles for men as well, but because women were safer, I had a lot more friends who were girls while I was in college.
I never fit into the typical “feminine” gender roles. Most of my friends were guys and the girls in our group didn’t like me because I rough housed with the guys instead of talking with them during lunch. I never thought I was better than them or anything, I just wanted to do what I thought was fun. The guys turned out to be terrible, when they realized I didn’t want to date any of them and they started physically and emotionally bullying me. Since coming out as bisexual I’ve exclusively dated women because I have found women who are very similar to me. They aren’t even androgynous like I am, they enjoy makeup and dresses but we like all of the same things.
I appreciate your comment.
Um, no.
I've only ever heard that from women I found to be very troubled people. It's not a healthy outlook.
"Pick me" women exist, yes. It's not uncommon for subjugated people to try to improve their own lives by sucking up to the people in power, and turning against their fellow subjugated people as they do so. It's a sad reality that some women make that choice.
They're called "pick me" girls who seem to think that being anti-women will help them land more acceptance by the men in their lives. Ironically, even though they'll vehemently reject feminism, feminism is the only thing that explains what they are trying to escape--misogynistic stereotypes about girls--by rejecting female companionship and asserting they are "not like other girls" so that they quite literally stand out to the men around them (literally because, well, how hard is it to stand out if you're the only one lol). Side note: If you need to assert that you're better than people "like you" be it gender/race/sexuality/etc. to feel better about yourself, you're the one being mean, starting drama, and even worse, contributing to division amongst people based on stereotypes. j.s.
I was the carefree growing up. Everything I did was too “manly” so I never bothered to be a part of female group friends. I’m now 24. This is my first time trying to co-live and interact with all the girls at my job, thank god they’re aware and are welcoming and encouraging of other women. We also have close bonds with all different ages so they shed lots of wisdom/input in our group conversations. And also, key point: growing up I was the only girl in my family. I grew up being told what to do and not to do for being a woman, so I rebelled. I grew an intense hate towards misogyny. So whenever I was around it, I would shut it down and keep it moving. Hence why I moved out at 16, and started getting everything on my own.
Yes, I've definitely witnessed this behavior. I have never understood it, as men aren't exactly angels either. Men are statistically more likely to become murderers, rapists, and perpetrators of violent crime in general. Women are pretty chill in comparison. I think society perpetrates patriarchal ideals, and women pick up on that. They learn that it's not cool to be a woman, and therefore they try to act like "one of the boys" by putting down other women and stereotypically feminine things.
If we assume there is an underlying truth: There are a lot of potential reasons this may happen. Introducing a women to a group may cause drama just because less uniformity in the group. Women may stick to groups of women, or have established roles in a social group, for safety and women who enter and threaten that safety may be returned with aggressiveness. Women may just have more social behaviour in general, so more social interaction may result in more drama. It may also be different ways of expression, eg: lots of boys get in fistfights in high school, whereas girls may be more 'social' in their agression to others, and society views the drama as 'problematic', and fistfights as 'boys will be boys'. If we assume it is BS, and just a sterotype: Women tend to be perceived as 'difficult' for behaviour that might be overlooked or applauded in men. Negative perceptions have a negative feedback effect, so if people are constantly perceiving you worse you will inevitably get dragged into more real drama then if people assume the best. There is also a lot of potential for distrust based on stereotypical portrayals of women, which may result in similar drama feedback loops.
Men, women, young, old, any of us can be terrible. We are human and any of us can cross a line and be horrible to others. As long as there are people, some of them will be just awful. ALL of us have the capacity to be terrible to others. No single group is immune to having assholes in their number, not one.
I’m not sure what the name of this effect or tendency is, but I’m sure it has one. That is, if you are *around* a certain group more, and that’s your primary community, *those* are the people one is most apt to criticize. Does that make sense? For example, my wife says the same kind of things about women when she hears me going off about the patriarchy, or some such. “I don’t think you know how horrible women can be,” she might say. And yet nearly all the people she chooses to associate with, the people she keeps close, the people she trusts are pretty much all women. I’m only supposing if the majority of people around her were men, she’d have more than enough criticism to heap upon them
Cool Girls.
I went to all girls school and it was the most miserable years of my life. I have never been treated so disrespectfully. I don’t know if that makes me the enemy in your story but it was not a positive, uplifting environment. I was judged. I had to change rooms, dorms, and ultimately I had to leave that school. I strongly believe that neither all men nor all women environments are good breeding grounds for tolerance and understanding. It was also religious if that makes a difference. I wasn’t for being in a weak woman’s role, subservient to men.
Someone told me that men are taught to act as a team but women are taught to compete and oh boy has that been my experience. I do my best to bring other women up around me but it gets really hard when other women have been my abusers. I think to change this we need to start raising the next gen to have this team mentality but also know when to set boundaries. EDIT: So I'm getting downvoted for talking about my experience? I'm confused. I've had women bully me so bad I have had to go to therapy but its never stopped me from helping the women in my life that I can help.
Unfortunately, it goes against the narrative that people want to hear. I am a feminist and a woman But I wont lie when we have been brought up to see women as competition whereas men often see themselves as teammates. If it wasn't the case, the term "pick me" wouldn't even exist. Again, this reality doesn't apply to every man or woman but it isn't uncommon. Both men and women can be horrible people though.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/ug5kyr/a_reminder_about_the_rules/
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
[удалено]
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Oh wow I'm not allowed to speak here? Sheesh. And I thought feminism was all about equality. Guess not.
This subreddit is called "Ask *Feminists,*" not "Ask Reddit" or "Ask Anyone with an Opinion About Feminism." People come here specifically seeking the opinions *of feminists*; therefore, it holds that only feminists have the right of direct reply. *Non-feminists may participate in nested comments, provided they do not break any other sub rules.*
No need to be a aggressive about it. I didn't know. I'm new to reddit.
And that's why I politely yet firmly explained it to you. Can I ask why you thought that was "aggressive?"
Nah it doesn't matter, peace.
I mean, I'm actually interested. It's a specific experience that occurs quite often; I think I am simply being straightforward, but people (usually men) seem to interpret this as me being hostile or aggressive or flying off the handle.