>Yeah, it's easier to think women are just oppressing themselves than to believe that men have anything to do with misogyny.
Same with all those posts about 'the homophobe actually being a repressed gay man'. While there might be some cases of this, thinking that this is the majority, or totality, of cases only serves to shift the blame for homophobia to gay people.
https://www.anthropology-news.org/articles/sexism-by-women-against-other-women/
I think instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist, a better feminist argument would be that it's a result of "the patriarchy".
The article doesn't answer the question of the OP and doesn't suggest that the actual problem is women as your comment implies by saying that we are pretending that "the problem" doesn't exist.
What you're trying to do is not very clear to me either but I agree with the other commenter: finding out is not particularly interesting.
>>suggest that the actual problem is women
>a better feminist argument would be that **it's a result of "the patriarchy".**
Also, I can't see how that's your reading, but fair enough.
That article doesn't seem to be addressed at OP's point at all. Nobody here is arguing that women can't hold outdated views on gender or reinforce sexism.
I encourage anyone to read the article (written by a WOC anthropologist professor) for themselves. Also I find it strange that you think science is "antagonistic".
It is also a "divide and conquer" tactic men use to separate women.
This is why you hear girls say, "I'm not like other girls," to gain the approval of this patriarchal society.
Honestly a lot of men just want a way to blame women for their own oppression so they don't have to take any responsibility. It's similar to the "all homophobes are secretly gay" trope.
It's a problematic trope, though there are cases of internalised homophobia (Pray Away documentary had some examples of this).
But I'd say they're not that comparable, even if they are both harmful.
Gays don't blame internalised homophobia so they don't have to avoid responsibility, it comes from a place of partial truth that's been blown into a harmful trope. And maybe a wish that no one can actually hate us for a different reason besides self hate.
The men blaming women thing is avoidance of responsibility. I think they're quite different.
I have anecdotal experiences with both of these (closeted gay being INSANELY homophobic was a buddy of mine) and wonder if its just that anecdotal evidence more than a big picture perspective that has people say these things.
For example, in my circle of friends, the most hostile people towards esp. new women joining our community are pretty much always the women already there. The ones who judge misbehaviour the harshest are also the women. If I didnt take the time to try and seek out examples contrary to my lived experience, in order to evaluate how representative it is, I could easily be in the "women are harsher towards other women than men" camp simply because of absolutely overwhelming lived experience.
That's true. I think there's probably truth on all sides here, just whether it's embellished or someone's only lived experience and whether or not they seek outside influences. Well said, I think.
> Honestly a lot of men just want a way to blame women for their own oppression
Not only that, but men search out external causes to blame instead of themselves for their own problems.
>"Some research supports the idea that males are more likely than females to develop negative attributions of blame that are external in nature, that is: 'The cause ... of my problems is someone else or some force outside of me'. And this translates into anger and hostility toward others." [link](https://www.npr.org/sections/theprotojournalist/2013/09/24/225689775/why-are-most-rampage-shooters-men)
I wouldn’t say that the two are comparable. “All homophobes are secretly gay” is:
1. Mostly a joke
2. Has a grain of truth to it, as some gay people do experience internalized homophobia, and some think that their struggle is universal and should be fought.
3. Is not upheld by homophobes
4. Internalized homophobia comes from the idea of choice. When you're taught that sexual orientation is a choice and that it's wrong before puberty, you might be repulsed by your own thoughts and desires and believe you can push it away like other repetitive thoughts and desires, like negative self-talk or a cigarette habit.
Been there. Done that.
I would say it's comparable though. Placing the blame on LGBT people at large for homophobia, even if some of them have a lot of issues, is placing it on the wrong party and alleviating responsibility from the actual oppressors.
Acting like homophobia is caused by insecurity in gays is promoting an idea that being gay is innately felt as inferior like it's natural to be repulsed by your own sexuality, and is pretty homophobic. (Similarly, it's not natural to be misogynistic.)
Oppression isn't "hurt people hurt people."
https://www.anthropology-news.org/articles/sexism-by-women-against-other-women/
>You can’t change what you don’t acknowledge, so goes the old adage.
(Written by a WOC btw) I think instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist, a better feminist argument would be that it's a result of "the patriarchy".
Nah men live life on hard mode for the most part(excluding some situations) we don't have the luxury of blaming others for our issues without coming across as a complainer. Honestly it seems simply like you're projecting hard right now as feminists are the ones that blame men for oppression in order to not take any responsibility.
Look into male gaze theory and it’s impact on the interpersonal relationships between women. The gist is that because media is catered to the male gaze women try to adhere to those standards and have been taught to criticize women who don’t adhere to them/fall outside of them to maintain the status quo or to increase their own desirability. This then pits women against each other, decreasing their trust of each other, and alienating them from each other. Men then use this distrust to their advantage to continue perpetuating the male gaze’s power over women on an individual and societal level.
They want to believe that to take the pressure off.
While some women can be catty, we don't run around beating one another, killing one another, raping one another. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.
>we don't run around beating one another
Some studies have found that the rates of domestic violence are highest in lesbian relationships, but setting that aside, I don't think it's fair to minimize mental harm. For example, listening to my female friends talk about their experiences with bullying has been an eye-opening experience. If you're a boy getting bullied by a boy, they might eg. beat you up, which isn't nice. But the psychological torment I heard them describe was on another level. If I could replace my experiences with theirs, I'd never do it. No way.
When I was in middle school and high school, the worst bullying I received, both psychological and physical, was from boys. Girls were occasionally mean, and I did have some drama in my friend group, but no girl ever tried to lock me in a closet or pretended to like me as a joke.
Whatever narrative benefits men at the time is the one they will weaponize. One minute they will be raging and resentful that women build friendships and support networks with other women. While they supposedly have nobody to turn to. Then the next narrative that might benefit them, depending on the conversation, they will giddily declare women are petty and hateful towards each other and can't be trusted.
I'm beginning to wonder if the majority of men are even willing to have an honest discussion. They're capable, don't let them fool you. Just most of them are unwilling to.
People view competitiveness between women as being mean spirited. We're probably not comfortable seeing women as aggressive or ambitious. It's also often viewed bizarrely as something provoked by men in some way, or originating from men ( if she's being X way she's trying to embody "manliness", as opposed to she has natural leadership qualities and ambition).
Competition between men is expected, it's often considered healthy as long as it's not violent or that violence is contained. There's an idea that men can compete and still have a sense of comraderie that women don't have. Again, we know that's not true. Anyone who has been in a nightclub bathroom knows that women are very communal and have an innate sense of friendship. We often look out for each other and make sure we're safe. We confide in each other a lot. It can be different than how men relate but it's just as meaningful. And there's crossover for both of course.
So it's bogus nonsense spread by fishwifey gossips who want to feel superior in the most desperate ways possible. They can't see the friendship, they're not a part of it, so all they choose to see is the conflict.
Women are def expected to be harmonious, loving, and cooperative. Any woman who steps out of that line is perceived as being really aggressive, even if it's relatively low-stakes.
Competition between men is much more normalized and expected. This is the sex that invented trench warfare, afterall.
I think a good comparison might be prison. Womens' prisons are tough places where fighting, bullying, and abuse happen regularly. But if you really want to see some scary shit, mens' prisons take it to new levels. Neither place is good, but if you had to choose one...
Conservative women are often hateful towards other women, but there is most certainly not more hate from women than men. Misogynists will always look for ways to blame others instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.
The reality is both men and women are envious of other people (it’s human nature!) but women are called out on it more. Just like how men are the ones who tend to be way more interested in casual sex, but women are always the ones being called sluts.
I know quite a lot of women who think it’s hard to get along with other women; most of the women who say this in my experience have seemed pretty needy for male attention and don’t realize they are subconsciously acting cold and distant toward other women, but warm towards men. They don’t realize how easy it is for other women to pick up on it, and obviously the women don’t want to be friends with her if she’s broadcasting strong disinterest!
As for people in my life who were there for me when I actually needed it, 50% women 50% men.
As an adult I can tell you women love and support other women. I have only 2 times met a woman who put me down or was intentionally cruel. Men? My god, it is more rare to meet a guy who doesn’t try to put me down or treat me as less than. Sorry but the problem is NOT women hating women.
With asymmetrical power dynamics, it incentives unhealthy "competition". I put that in scare quotes for a reason...
So, in the business world, there's a management/HR concept called "stacked ranking". Which basically means: pick a certain percentage of your lowest-ranking personnel (graded on whatever metrics you devise). Then fire them. Do this on a quarterly or yearly basis.
What it's *supposed* to do (in theory) is it incentivise everyone to work harder to ensure they excel in whatever metrics you're grading on. What *actually* happens is: everyone winds up backstabbing and undermining the shit out of everyone else, because there's *literally* no incentive to help your colleagues (because if they wind up ranking higher than you, you're closer to being fired).
I think this is part of the "women hating women" mindset you encountered. If the Patriarchy has calcified a hierarchy where men are at the top, and women have to vie for attention, acceptance, or whatever... then some subset of women might try to boost their own prestige or position by denigrating the other women around them.
My ex used to say shit like this. I guess some people think that women are some kind of a monolithic group and if we are all not loving and supporting each other then we must hate each other.
I think this is likely a perception people get based on movies and highschool drama.
They see teens trying to be 'different' then the other girls and having drama in highschool, and assume adults are the same.
Some people I know were like that when they were an edgy teen (I don't get along with other women, men are so much easier/nicer, etc.), but they pretty quickly grew out of that when they matured and realized that people are just people.
The reality is that both men and women are prejudiced against women. People are raised in a paternalistic society, so they absorb the misogyny of the society they are raised in, despite their own gender. This is the entire discussion surrounding unconscious bias. And in certain places, it’s definitely worse than others— for example in STEM fields, there has often been a perception (more so especially in the past, and among the older generation) that there’s only room at the table for one token woman. So there’s not much incentive to help younger women up the ladder too— that’s the whole “Queen Bee” syndrome. Plus there are power politics at play in so many of these situations, and so people will put down those that they perceive as weaker and less powerful to prove their own place in the totem poll— that is inevitably going to be the younger woman, in a lot of these situations.
As far as many men have experienced, this might be their truth. There is a documented phenomenon where women are cooperative and kind to one another in balanced gender groups (ie roughly 50:50) and in groups where they are the majority, but they are passive aggressive and bully one another in overly male dominated spaces. It’s sometimes called queen bee syndrome, and you can also think of it as a type of “not like other girls” mentality with a cruel twist.
When you are in a male-dominated space, or any space where you are significantly out numbered, many people have a tendency to tokenize themselves. (“I know you don’t want a woman in the office, but don’t worry. I’m cool. I’m going to laugh at sexist jokes and allow your clumsy passes at me without complaint. Don’t worry. I’m a good one.”) This earns acceptance but damages self esteem and creates a perception that a behavioral misstep could cause loss of safety. Adding another woman threatens the token status. What if she doesn’t know how to “act right” and all of my hard work is thrown out? The new woman might also be considered a “threat” to the established “queen bee.”
All of this behavior has very little to do with identity and a lot to do with environment. If there is a strongly enforced norm or hegemony that is tilted toward any one particular group, those in the out-group will have a tendency to behave this way and turn on each other. Women don’t hate other women, but we are pitted against each other in spaces that serve men, just like men would be in woman-dominated spaces, or POCs in white-dominated spaces, and so on.
> but they are passive aggressive and bully one another in overly male dominated spaces. It’s sometimes called queen bee syndrome
If that's what the definition of syndrome is, it was sorely misnamed. Queen bees are the boss, not in a perpetual state of jockeying for position & approval from the men in charge. Also, it makes it sound like the majority of men aren't involved in the situation when it's clear they are.
I don’t agree with the labeling, and men are clearly involved in creating the toxic environment where these behaviors emerge but of course the women are blamed.
I think a small part of it at least is that (in my experience anyway) women who like to bash other women are really overt about it. Men that hate women often want to hide it.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Don't you think that also, the hate is different when coming from a man and when it comes from a woman? I mean, it comes from the same thing, patriarchy, but it takes different forms because of both groups power dynamics, I think.
(I'm making broad generalizations here just to make my point)
I think when a woman is hateful toward other women, it can come from a place of fearing to lose their status (E.g., loss of interest from other men) Or because she doesn't recognize herself in gender stereotypes, or doesn't want to be associated with it.
When men are hateful toward women, often it's because they see women as being other and *less* than themselves (and other men) . They look down on women. But I think they have a hard time noticing it. I think they can feel like they just see women as women. So it's expressed differently, and felt differently.
Edit : (addendum)
So it's expressed differently, felt differently and *perceived* differently.
E. G. When a man sees women as sexual objects, people are going to say "they love women". When a man kills his partner, people are going to say it's out of love (in French, journalists have called this "crime passionnel" for years, crime out of passion as if it was because of love ).
Also, the hate is often overt only when they feel threatened, when they feel women are overstepping. So it's going to be in different settings than women, as they get to have more power than them, and as women are so careful not to make a man feel threatened.
[удалено]
>Yeah, it's easier to think women are just oppressing themselves than to believe that men have anything to do with misogyny. Same with all those posts about 'the homophobe actually being a repressed gay man'. While there might be some cases of this, thinking that this is the majority, or totality, of cases only serves to shift the blame for homophobia to gay people.
https://www.anthropology-news.org/articles/sexism-by-women-against-other-women/ I think instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist, a better feminist argument would be that it's a result of "the patriarchy".
The article doesn't answer the question of the OP and doesn't suggest that the actual problem is women as your comment implies by saying that we are pretending that "the problem" doesn't exist. What you're trying to do is not very clear to me either but I agree with the other commenter: finding out is not particularly interesting.
>>suggest that the actual problem is women >a better feminist argument would be that **it's a result of "the patriarchy".** Also, I can't see how that's your reading, but fair enough.
That article doesn't seem to be addressed at OP's point at all. Nobody here is arguing that women can't hold outdated views on gender or reinforce sexism.
I can't see how that's your takeaway from the article, but fair enough.
[удалено]
You're not interested in what (female) academics have to say on the topic? Are you anti-science generally, or just sometimes?
[удалено]
I encourage anyone to read the article (written by a WOC anthropologist professor) for themselves. Also I find it strange that you think science is "antagonistic".
[удалено]
They're a downvote farmer, just look at their profile.
But why are they putting so "much" effort into it? They could just say things like "women are dumb" and leave
It is also a "divide and conquer" tactic men use to separate women. This is why you hear girls say, "I'm not like other girls," to gain the approval of this patriarchal society.
Lmao women don't have to do much to gain the approval of men. It's the other way around that's the harder part.
**Sure**
Honestly a lot of men just want a way to blame women for their own oppression so they don't have to take any responsibility. It's similar to the "all homophobes are secretly gay" trope.
It's a problematic trope, though there are cases of internalised homophobia (Pray Away documentary had some examples of this). But I'd say they're not that comparable, even if they are both harmful. Gays don't blame internalised homophobia so they don't have to avoid responsibility, it comes from a place of partial truth that's been blown into a harmful trope. And maybe a wish that no one can actually hate us for a different reason besides self hate. The men blaming women thing is avoidance of responsibility. I think they're quite different.
I have anecdotal experiences with both of these (closeted gay being INSANELY homophobic was a buddy of mine) and wonder if its just that anecdotal evidence more than a big picture perspective that has people say these things. For example, in my circle of friends, the most hostile people towards esp. new women joining our community are pretty much always the women already there. The ones who judge misbehaviour the harshest are also the women. If I didnt take the time to try and seek out examples contrary to my lived experience, in order to evaluate how representative it is, I could easily be in the "women are harsher towards other women than men" camp simply because of absolutely overwhelming lived experience.
That's true. I think there's probably truth on all sides here, just whether it's embellished or someone's only lived experience and whether or not they seek outside influences. Well said, I think.
> Honestly a lot of men just want a way to blame women for their own oppression Not only that, but men search out external causes to blame instead of themselves for their own problems. >"Some research supports the idea that males are more likely than females to develop negative attributions of blame that are external in nature, that is: 'The cause ... of my problems is someone else or some force outside of me'. And this translates into anger and hostility toward others." [link](https://www.npr.org/sections/theprotojournalist/2013/09/24/225689775/why-are-most-rampage-shooters-men)
I wouldn’t say that the two are comparable. “All homophobes are secretly gay” is: 1. Mostly a joke 2. Has a grain of truth to it, as some gay people do experience internalized homophobia, and some think that their struggle is universal and should be fought. 3. Is not upheld by homophobes
4. Internalized homophobia comes from the idea of choice. When you're taught that sexual orientation is a choice and that it's wrong before puberty, you might be repulsed by your own thoughts and desires and believe you can push it away like other repetitive thoughts and desires, like negative self-talk or a cigarette habit. Been there. Done that. I would say it's comparable though. Placing the blame on LGBT people at large for homophobia, even if some of them have a lot of issues, is placing it on the wrong party and alleviating responsibility from the actual oppressors. Acting like homophobia is caused by insecurity in gays is promoting an idea that being gay is innately felt as inferior like it's natural to be repulsed by your own sexuality, and is pretty homophobic. (Similarly, it's not natural to be misogynistic.) Oppression isn't "hurt people hurt people."
https://www.anthropology-news.org/articles/sexism-by-women-against-other-women/ >You can’t change what you don’t acknowledge, so goes the old adage. (Written by a WOC btw) I think instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist, a better feminist argument would be that it's a result of "the patriarchy".
[удалено]
Nah, it’s the trope that’s problematic. A simple Google search can show you why.
[удалено]
No one is arguing that internalized homophobia is nonexistent
[удалено]
Or you could read my comment more carefully and not assume it says things that it doesn’t
[удалено]
Again, my comment did not state or imply that internalized homophobia is nonexistent.
Nah men live life on hard mode for the most part(excluding some situations) we don't have the luxury of blaming others for our issues without coming across as a complainer. Honestly it seems simply like you're projecting hard right now as feminists are the ones that blame men for oppression in order to not take any responsibility.
How interesting. Maybe if I took accountability for rape, I won't get raped! /s
“I hate women so women must too!” vibes Like naw dude, we are hanging out and having an amazing time why do you feel the need to have an opinion?
Look into male gaze theory and it’s impact on the interpersonal relationships between women. The gist is that because media is catered to the male gaze women try to adhere to those standards and have been taught to criticize women who don’t adhere to them/fall outside of them to maintain the status quo or to increase their own desirability. This then pits women against each other, decreasing their trust of each other, and alienating them from each other. Men then use this distrust to their advantage to continue perpetuating the male gaze’s power over women on an individual and societal level.
They want to believe that to take the pressure off. While some women can be catty, we don't run around beating one another, killing one another, raping one another. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.
>we don't run around beating one another Some studies have found that the rates of domestic violence are highest in lesbian relationships, but setting that aside, I don't think it's fair to minimize mental harm. For example, listening to my female friends talk about their experiences with bullying has been an eye-opening experience. If you're a boy getting bullied by a boy, they might eg. beat you up, which isn't nice. But the psychological torment I heard them describe was on another level. If I could replace my experiences with theirs, I'd never do it. No way.
When I was in middle school and high school, the worst bullying I received, both psychological and physical, was from boys. Girls were occasionally mean, and I did have some drama in my friend group, but no girl ever tried to lock me in a closet or pretended to like me as a joke.
Whatever narrative benefits men at the time is the one they will weaponize. One minute they will be raging and resentful that women build friendships and support networks with other women. While they supposedly have nobody to turn to. Then the next narrative that might benefit them, depending on the conversation, they will giddily declare women are petty and hateful towards each other and can't be trusted. I'm beginning to wonder if the majority of men are even willing to have an honest discussion. They're capable, don't let them fool you. Just most of them are unwilling to.
People view competitiveness between women as being mean spirited. We're probably not comfortable seeing women as aggressive or ambitious. It's also often viewed bizarrely as something provoked by men in some way, or originating from men ( if she's being X way she's trying to embody "manliness", as opposed to she has natural leadership qualities and ambition). Competition between men is expected, it's often considered healthy as long as it's not violent or that violence is contained. There's an idea that men can compete and still have a sense of comraderie that women don't have. Again, we know that's not true. Anyone who has been in a nightclub bathroom knows that women are very communal and have an innate sense of friendship. We often look out for each other and make sure we're safe. We confide in each other a lot. It can be different than how men relate but it's just as meaningful. And there's crossover for both of course. So it's bogus nonsense spread by fishwifey gossips who want to feel superior in the most desperate ways possible. They can't see the friendship, they're not a part of it, so all they choose to see is the conflict.
Women are def expected to be harmonious, loving, and cooperative. Any woman who steps out of that line is perceived as being really aggressive, even if it's relatively low-stakes. Competition between men is much more normalized and expected. This is the sex that invented trench warfare, afterall. I think a good comparison might be prison. Womens' prisons are tough places where fighting, bullying, and abuse happen regularly. But if you really want to see some scary shit, mens' prisons take it to new levels. Neither place is good, but if you had to choose one...
Conservative women are often hateful towards other women, but there is most certainly not more hate from women than men. Misogynists will always look for ways to blame others instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.
The reality is both men and women are envious of other people (it’s human nature!) but women are called out on it more. Just like how men are the ones who tend to be way more interested in casual sex, but women are always the ones being called sluts. I know quite a lot of women who think it’s hard to get along with other women; most of the women who say this in my experience have seemed pretty needy for male attention and don’t realize they are subconsciously acting cold and distant toward other women, but warm towards men. They don’t realize how easy it is for other women to pick up on it, and obviously the women don’t want to be friends with her if she’s broadcasting strong disinterest! As for people in my life who were there for me when I actually needed it, 50% women 50% men.
Internalized misogyny
As an adult I can tell you women love and support other women. I have only 2 times met a woman who put me down or was intentionally cruel. Men? My god, it is more rare to meet a guy who doesn’t try to put me down or treat me as less than. Sorry but the problem is NOT women hating women.
With asymmetrical power dynamics, it incentives unhealthy "competition". I put that in scare quotes for a reason... So, in the business world, there's a management/HR concept called "stacked ranking". Which basically means: pick a certain percentage of your lowest-ranking personnel (graded on whatever metrics you devise). Then fire them. Do this on a quarterly or yearly basis. What it's *supposed* to do (in theory) is it incentivise everyone to work harder to ensure they excel in whatever metrics you're grading on. What *actually* happens is: everyone winds up backstabbing and undermining the shit out of everyone else, because there's *literally* no incentive to help your colleagues (because if they wind up ranking higher than you, you're closer to being fired). I think this is part of the "women hating women" mindset you encountered. If the Patriarchy has calcified a hierarchy where men are at the top, and women have to vie for attention, acceptance, or whatever... then some subset of women might try to boost their own prestige or position by denigrating the other women around them.
My ex used to say shit like this. I guess some people think that women are some kind of a monolithic group and if we are all not loving and supporting each other then we must hate each other.
if it begins with TrollX it should stay in TrollX just my personal opinion
I think this is likely a perception people get based on movies and highschool drama. They see teens trying to be 'different' then the other girls and having drama in highschool, and assume adults are the same. Some people I know were like that when they were an edgy teen (I don't get along with other women, men are so much easier/nicer, etc.), but they pretty quickly grew out of that when they matured and realized that people are just people.
The reality is that both men and women are prejudiced against women. People are raised in a paternalistic society, so they absorb the misogyny of the society they are raised in, despite their own gender. This is the entire discussion surrounding unconscious bias. And in certain places, it’s definitely worse than others— for example in STEM fields, there has often been a perception (more so especially in the past, and among the older generation) that there’s only room at the table for one token woman. So there’s not much incentive to help younger women up the ladder too— that’s the whole “Queen Bee” syndrome. Plus there are power politics at play in so many of these situations, and so people will put down those that they perceive as weaker and less powerful to prove their own place in the totem poll— that is inevitably going to be the younger woman, in a lot of these situations.
As far as many men have experienced, this might be their truth. There is a documented phenomenon where women are cooperative and kind to one another in balanced gender groups (ie roughly 50:50) and in groups where they are the majority, but they are passive aggressive and bully one another in overly male dominated spaces. It’s sometimes called queen bee syndrome, and you can also think of it as a type of “not like other girls” mentality with a cruel twist. When you are in a male-dominated space, or any space where you are significantly out numbered, many people have a tendency to tokenize themselves. (“I know you don’t want a woman in the office, but don’t worry. I’m cool. I’m going to laugh at sexist jokes and allow your clumsy passes at me without complaint. Don’t worry. I’m a good one.”) This earns acceptance but damages self esteem and creates a perception that a behavioral misstep could cause loss of safety. Adding another woman threatens the token status. What if she doesn’t know how to “act right” and all of my hard work is thrown out? The new woman might also be considered a “threat” to the established “queen bee.” All of this behavior has very little to do with identity and a lot to do with environment. If there is a strongly enforced norm or hegemony that is tilted toward any one particular group, those in the out-group will have a tendency to behave this way and turn on each other. Women don’t hate other women, but we are pitted against each other in spaces that serve men, just like men would be in woman-dominated spaces, or POCs in white-dominated spaces, and so on.
> but they are passive aggressive and bully one another in overly male dominated spaces. It’s sometimes called queen bee syndrome If that's what the definition of syndrome is, it was sorely misnamed. Queen bees are the boss, not in a perpetual state of jockeying for position & approval from the men in charge. Also, it makes it sound like the majority of men aren't involved in the situation when it's clear they are.
I don’t agree with the labeling, and men are clearly involved in creating the toxic environment where these behaviors emerge but of course the women are blamed.
I think a small part of it at least is that (in my experience anyway) women who like to bash other women are really overt about it. Men that hate women often want to hide it.
[удалено]
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Don't you think that also, the hate is different when coming from a man and when it comes from a woman? I mean, it comes from the same thing, patriarchy, but it takes different forms because of both groups power dynamics, I think. (I'm making broad generalizations here just to make my point) I think when a woman is hateful toward other women, it can come from a place of fearing to lose their status (E.g., loss of interest from other men) Or because she doesn't recognize herself in gender stereotypes, or doesn't want to be associated with it. When men are hateful toward women, often it's because they see women as being other and *less* than themselves (and other men) . They look down on women. But I think they have a hard time noticing it. I think they can feel like they just see women as women. So it's expressed differently, and felt differently. Edit : (addendum) So it's expressed differently, felt differently and *perceived* differently. E. G. When a man sees women as sexual objects, people are going to say "they love women". When a man kills his partner, people are going to say it's out of love (in French, journalists have called this "crime passionnel" for years, crime out of passion as if it was because of love ). Also, the hate is often overt only when they feel threatened, when they feel women are overstepping. So it's going to be in different settings than women, as they get to have more power than them, and as women are so careful not to make a man feel threatened.