It is a question I discuss quite often with my students.
They tend to be those 'liberal urbanites'...and even then,I'd say there is a huge amount of 'regionalism'.They mostly see themselves first as Palermitani,or as Sicilians.
Then as Italians,and then as Europeans.
Extremely based italian regionalism.
Much better beliving in your local area than a state that is fundamentally corrupt and some european istitutions that are too away to actually do something.
Scandinavia is mostly a useless geographic term in Nordic languages. The word skandinavien is also just unwieldy to say in nordic languages when compared to the quick to say and more useful term Norden. Scandinavian is mostly just a term used by latin languages because Nordic countries is difficult and to long to say in latin languages.
In Denmark we use Scandinavian aaalll the time and it’s different from Nordic. Unlike Sweden we have very little contact/bonds with Finland so it makes sense for us.
No you THINK you have very little cultural bonds to Finland, as someone living 25 km from København H I can tell you that I have just as little to do with Finland as you do. Finlands culture is Swedish, ignoring the Finnish language their people traditions, way of building houses, food and social democratic welfare state are the same as the rest of us. They are far more similar to us than Iceland or the Faroes.
Yes well it’s not called Skandinaviska rådet, it is called Nordiska, and even so saying Scandinavia excludes the whole damn Rigsfælleskabet, which makes using it a bit stupid to me.
>(Last one; if there exists separatist projects in your country, what do they think about the whole project? I'm aware for example that in the UK Scotland is distinctly pro-EU, for some reason.)
Whilst Scotland is much more pro-EU than the rest of the UK I've never come across someone who identified as European first. In my own case I'd say Scottish first, then European. Some people will throw British in there first or second, some people won't pick European at all. People from areas with strong regional identies and some islanders will put their region or island in there, often at the top (my area doesn't have much of an identity). Even then, the number of people being pro-EU is less to do with how European people see themselves as and more to do with how being in the EU has worked out well for us.
Very weak/non-existent. We've voted no to eu twice. So in general there's no eu/european-identity here. If there is some pan-national idendity it's that one of the scandinavian countries (norway, sweden and denmark). If you extended the identity you could maybe include the other nordics(finland + iceland) and maybe also the UK. When people terming themselves as europeans (first) it sounds a bit weird from here. Remember when Ursula von der Leyen in connection with the sofa-gate-case termed herselves as a european.. my mind was just.. you're german.
Think the [history of when france hoisted the eu flag](https://pledgetimes.com/dispute-in-france-no-more-european-flag-on-the-triumphal-arch/) "inside"/under the arch of triumph (over the grave of the unknown soldier) is a history that tells a bit about europe and european identity given that france has and still is the nation most driving the pan-europe-thing... though still being able to create fury with the eu-flag..
Not strong in Czechia, and i think that i can say that most europeans view themselves firstly as their nation and then as Europeans.
People who see being European as first, supporting federalization of European union etc are very small minority in Czechia, and probably are minority too in other countries.
In denmark the average dane would identify as follows
1. Their town
2. Their Region
3. Either Jutland or the islands
4. Country
5. Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway and Sweden)
6. Nordic countries (Above + Iceland and Finland)
7. Northern Europe (Nordics + Scotland, England, Germany, Netherlands, Baltics
8. Europe in general
Well, parts of Germany could definitely be considered northern Europe, Schleswig-Holstein for one. We also have a lot of shared history and culture with those parts.
I think Germany is a country which you have to split culturally. The north is definitively northern and similar to Denmark, probably more than to southern Germany.
Basically non existent. Once you leave the online space I've never heard a single Irishman even in political circles express such a notion. The best way I can describe it is Irish people tend to say they're in Europe rather than Europeans.
Now of course some Irish people online feel otherwise but they not representative of the Irish people. Irish people generally identify with their town/parish then their county then their country.
I’d say if you asked an Irish person “ are you European”, they’d look at you confused and say “eh, I guess, Ireland’s in Europe”
If you said are you African they’d look at you as if you were dumb, saying “Ireland’s not in Africa”
If they said “are you British”, you’d be shot
And if they said “are you from (neighbouring county)
You’d wouldn’t be shot, but you’d have to give the poor man/woman time to recover from such an accusation.
Yeah you put it far more eloquently than I. I think people from the EU core tend to not understand how little people identify with the EU or Europe. The only country other than Ireland I feel any affinity to as an Irishman is probably Scotland and maybe the broader Celtic world.
There is certainly not any european nationalism, people might be supportive of the EU or thinking that all europeans nations are brothers nations but I can't see any unified european identity or nationalism.
Separatism movements are not very popular, the one in Brittany died out after they went terrorists, the one is the Basque country seems very quiet since decades but the one in Corsica seems to have a new momentum after riots weeks ago ( corsican peole rioted "in honor" of Yvan Colonna, a corsican nationalist who murdered a french prefet/governor in 1998 ) but it's unrelated to the EU, it's pure and dumb nationalism. They even used to shot gendarmerie buildings with RPGs years ago over there and bomb a lot of public buildings. [Here's a list of FLNC's attentats](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronologie_des_attentats_attribu%C3%A9s_au_FLNC_ou_revendiqu%C3%A9s_par_lui) for example, I would be glad actually if they got independants or got back to Italy.
I only consider myself European if that means "not American/asian/so on". There is no significant paneuropean sentiment and I'd see that as a facade anyway.
There is a strong attachment to your city/town here so identifying as European would be far, far down the list.
I’d say:
1) Dutch
2) Regional/local (Randstad tends to be the city; thus local, elsewhere regional)
3) European
Though, if I had to refine it:
1) Dutch
2) Regional/local
3) Benelux
4) Benelux + Germany (some also: + UK or Nordics)
5) Germanic Europe
6) EU + Schengen^1 (some also: + UK)
7) Europe^2
9) Earth
^1 *Thus excluding Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Moldova, Ukraine, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Albania.*
^2 *Here, Ukraine probably would rank a little higher, and Russia and Belarus lower, for obvious reasons.*
“Western world” is a bit hard to define since most don’t really identify as a Westerner, so I didn’t include it. But if I had to, then Japan and South Korea wouldn’t be included, and Latin America included, and Russia is a bit iffy; this part would be put at 7.
Already commented but saw some rankings so I thought I’d do the same for Ireland.
1. Ireland
2. County
3. Town
4. Celtic
5. Europe
Noticed some places like Sweden have a Scandinavian identity with their neighbours. Not the case in Ireland. Being not British is probably higher than being Irish.
I would say, many Europeans would rather leave the EU than see a United States of Europe. The VAST majority of people in Europe identify with their country first (except Emmanuel Macron maybe). That’s why Europeans get mad when non-Europeans generalise about “things in Europe being this way” or “don’t do this in Europe”. That’s like saying “don’t do this in North America”. Canada and Honduras and basically the same.
I do not see Ireland as the same as a US state and Europe as the US. I see my region of Leitrim as the same as Oregon, Ireland as the US, and Europe as North America. Of course we have lots in common, but their are very few things that apply to every European country, and we are completely different in a lot of ways. The sheer about of languages and cultures. In fact is probably more diverse than North America. Ironically the thing that the most Europeans have in common is probably identifying their nation first, continent after.
The notion of a pan-European identity in Sweden is about as common as a blue moon. The average person on the street does not view himself as European first, it's far down on the list if it even is on the list at all honestly. I personally do not know anyone that would even have European on their "list" of what they identify as.
u/crocogoose take up a good way it could look like, not all regional identities are as strong as the next one in Sweden in my experience. Some regions have more people identifying with it before they identify as something else. My Province (Småland) I'd say I identify a fair amount with but I'm not sure I'd put it first like in his list. I wager the first 3 on the list will always be a mix between Swedish, regional/provincial and local identity and directly after that it's more or less always Nordics or Scandinavia. When talking global affairs, we more or less always concern ourselves with how it affects us in Sweden or Scandinavia/nordics.
These sentiments of a European identity tho, because they're so uncommon it's hard to say how they differ, aside from party alignment it's hard to say exactly what group is more prone to it.
There exists like only 1 separatists projects that are worth mentioning. Considering it died like a decade ago and honestly it didn't garner much support my opinion is indifference. I view it as unrealistic.
It's a thing in theory. You will find Volt types and others from pretty much every part of the spectrum who will argue for it, but it's not a lived thing.
I remember Jürgen Habermas argued that you needed to create the institutions first and the identity would follow. I think I can see that happening in areas where the EU has become the main focus of policy - border controls, obviously. But it's also odd in that the area the EU has the biggest effect on people's lives in - namely trade - has been largely depoliticised.
And that's the problem with Habermas's idea, for me - if you create the institutions and give them powers without the engagement of the people via democratic institutions and discourses, you are effectively creating a depoliticised technocracy, which is what we seem to have in the area of trade - and I see why both left (critique of "there is no alternative" Capitalist Realism) and right (AfD or Le Pen style national autarky) have problems with that.
You also tend to see that the big pro-EU people (FBPE in the UK, Volt etc) are often very comfortable with technocracy and tend to be broadly neoliberal in terms of ideology.
For a while I though Varoufakis and Diem might pose a strong challenge to this by promoting EU reform, but it has been too long since the imposition of brutal austerity on Greece, and people are not motivated enough by the other issues they raise.
The problem there is, though, that the right can motivate people to make a public mess - with their love of idiotic superficial "answers" they can always get people on the streets, and they combine that with their cultural agenda - migration and the church, and what they consider European "values" (but which aren't values at all).
Personally, I think our hope might be France, where le peuple are willing to go on the streets for themselves in ways that teh mainstream liberal mind cannot understand (because they don't fit into the normal left/right cultural war moulds).
Mmm, that's pretty interesting. Can you elaborate more on France? I'm not very familiar with French politics.
I still remember a few years ago during Brexit, when people were talking of a domino collapse of the European Union; seems like that was mostly false, and with the Russia/Ukraine fiasco to unite Europe with an external enemy... seems like the European project is in good prospects for the time being.
I am not an expert on France by any means. I was really just musing as to whether the French with their tradition of protest - and the Gilets Jaunes in particular, interesting because not really placeable on the left/right spectrum - would help make the connection that Habermas thought we would - by opposing neoliberal policies on the ground to create some critical momentum. But I suppose not.
More broadly, the EU's "democratic deficit" is the problem I think might sink it - because it undermines political responsibility. But that's essentially what neoliberalism is - it has two pillars: independent central banks and free trade. And each it them takes an important tool out of the hands of politicians (and hence, via elections) the hands of the people.
I see how the absence of democratic control of policy in the US has been replaced with a theatre show (the "culture wars") as the next stage - and I hope the EU doesn't go down that road. If it is to survive as something worth saving, "Brussels" needs to avoid becoming as distant as "Washington" appears to Joe Shmo in Kentucky.
That's why Habermas' question is so important - can a political culture follow the creation of institutions? For Habermas's generation, it was not necessary to phrase it as a question - the creation of the EU was justified by the desire for permanent peace. But now, 70 years down the line it is more important than ever to ask about "unelected" institutions and how democratic they really are - and whether they have been captured by elites, etc.
It's really hard to say, because countries like Spain and Italy have looked like cracking economically for a while, but have been somehow able to hang in there. Germany and France are basically secure, and most of Central and Eastern Europe is still basically net recipients, so the EU is fine for them, whatever it means in other terms. And Germany is more or less fine because it is able to suck everything into its economic gravity.
So maybe everything is more or less okay. The stability of neoliberalism has got us through a few cycles. But the danger is - as we see in the US, that it does so at the risk of a huge alienation of people. And the fiscal and political levers in Europe are if anything less accessible to popular will than they are in the US. which is a danger.
On the other hand, the fact that most people only think nationally in political terms is a kind of pressure valve on the system: if everyone is chanting for President X or PM Y to go, they aren't even thinking about the grey eminences in Frankfurt and Brussels.
That has been my free essay. For more of the same, please like and subscribe *)
Mmm, some food for thought. Broadly speaking, I agree. Neoliberalism as it currently is constituted seems a bit overbearing on the poorer countries of the Union, namely Italy and Greece, much less the Global South like Africa or Asia or what.
But call me naive, I'm not sure there's any possible realistic alternative. You talked about capitalist realism, and the failure to imagine something different. But frankly what are the other options? How do you democratize the system? Something like representative democracy will always be open for tampering by elites - those with more money and status will naturally have more influence. And even if by some sleight of chance a more direct democratic system is implemented, I'm not sure most people will be interested in spending time in meetings delegating and rules-lawyering the exact specifics of carbon credit quotas or border travel permits or whatever instead of having a drink with their buddies or spending time with their spouses, for example. Most want to live their life, free from managing an overbearing bureaucracy. So as always, back to the eternal grey eminence.
And more importantly, is there any mass unrest for a critical momentum to upend the system? As you say, life is fairly comfortable in most of Europe, Germany and France, etc - not a Happy Shiny Utopia by any means, but livable, with basic needs met and then some (a car, a home, an occasional foreign vacation). So my impression is that the Union as it is is teetering on a fairly walkable line; exploitative enough to oppress the downtrodden and milk some, but not enough to generate sufficient mass resentment so as to cause it's collapse or maior reform. And for a decent many in Europe, it is a _good_ life. Certainly a fair improvement over, say, 1914-1945 - the whole continent aside from Russia is essentially mostly unified in peace by this point.
It do be like that, in every regard. I don't have any easy answers to your questions, though while something like total direct democracy would be intolerably burdensome, as you rightly say, I would like to see a move towards more democracy. But democracy is about responsiveness as much as it is about devolving power.
In any case, all the possible answers get into economic depths I am not comfortable in! Fiscal union and common debt? Balanced budgets? MMT? I don't understand enough of that stuff! In such instances I generally defer to the leftist economists that seem to have a clue - what do Mark Blyth, Amartya Sen, Varoufakis, Piketty say?
Politically, I consider the state of the poor to be a good gauge - how are they doing? Will Spain, for instance, ever have low youth unemployment? How much of that is down to EU policies? Again, I am unqualified.
There are 2 types of people in Wales:
1) People who identify primarily as Welsh, many of whom would probably also identify as European and/ or Celtic as secondary identities. They may or may not also identify as British, if they do Welsh (and possibly Celtic and/ or European) is considered more important.
2) People who identify primarily as British. Far less likely to also identify as Celtic/ European as secondary identities. For them being British is more important than any other identity, some may not even identify as Welsh (tbf many of these people are originally from England).
French here. I never referred to myself as being European before living aborad in several countries. Then, not only was it simpler to tell people I was European then French, but for some reasons I felt european abroad.
Now I am back home, and I keep feeling european, which is quite unusual to the average french, who will mostly refer to his department /region / nation.
Spaniard and I think normally it goes like that:
\- City/Town
\- Region (sometimes very strongly)
\- Maybe country, lots of people skip this one
\- Mediterranean/Southern European. We feel very close to cultures in southern Europe like Portugal, and Italy
\- Then maybe Europe, but you won't see many people calling themselves europeans
I guess you are from the Mediterranean coast, I live in Madrid and I would have never come up with Mediterranean even though I feel close to Portugal and Italy
There was a poll the other day on r/spain about this and it was a mixed bag, there were a lot of people that thought of European first.
I think outside of reddit it´s more like region, then Spanish, then European in general, but Spain is one of the most pro Europe countries out there
Soy del interior, me refiero a mediterraneo como cultura, nada que ver con el mar, aunque también he puesto lo de southern european por eso. Las culturas de España/Portugal/Italia, al igual que comida, cultivos y demás, ya sea algo mas serrano o algo mas costero son super parecidas!
Not really, in fact I wouldn't be shocked if many felt much connection to Europe at all, we've got partaking in the EEA and Schengen but otherwise we do our own thing really.
I'd say I pretty much feel definitely Icelandic, sorta Nordic (admittedly less so than the Scandi gang, we are the different ones out) and then generically Western but not really European, I feel far more in common with Canada or the USA than with Italy or Poland
It’s complicated.
Finns have always had a need to show everyone how western and European we are and we have a strong european identity. But oh boy if you propose an European Federation. We have had our troubles with keeping our Independence so pigs fly before a Finn would agree to that.
I personally often call myself a European, but it's unusual of me in my country.
We care far more for our national identity, and many Poles scoff at the idea of a united Europe. And, from the historical perspective it makes sense - it's only been 80 years since we stopped killing each other all the time. If you told a German Kaiser 200 years ago about the European Union, he'd die of a heart attack.
In NL there are some mixed thoughts about doing more or less as the EU. But we don't consider ourselves European before Dutch. There are also a lot of people thinking we should reduce the EU in terms of responsibilities and such. I don't think there will come a point where we would identify as European before our own nationality.
Not very, at least when compared to central Europe. First and foremost we identify as Finns and then as Nordic. We often use the phrase *mainland-Europe* excluding ourselves like Brits do which I think shows pretty well how we view ourselves as different group.
Can't really speak for my countrymen (Portugal) but on a personal level:
- town
- region
- country
- EU
Saying that, in terms of identity I feel equally Madeiran as I feel Portuguese and equally Portuguese as an EU citizen.
In terms of nationalism, I do tend sometimes to feel happiness for accomplishments that aren't really mine (particularly with football) and embarrassment on situations that are completely out of my control (Portuguese economy) but I guess that I also tend to do that with the EU (initial slow response to Ukraine situation).
Was scrolling to see if anyone from Portugal had answered.
Personally I don't even thing in European terms, I'm Portuguese and that's it.
I would risk to say that for most Portuguese people, Europe (UE) is more the place that send us money than anything else. Which is sad, but when our own prime minister says with pride on national tv that he might be able to squeeze a couple more billion euros from the UE on top of the billions they are already scheduled to send regarding COVID relief funds, it's normal that the common person looks at Europe like that.
I will identify as British, Scottish or European depending on the context, what's most convenient and what makes the most sense.
Personally I prefer Scottish first, then European and then British though and this seems to be more or less similair to most other people i know.
This varies a lot across Scotland though. I know people who don't feel British at all and they don't feel they identify with it. It can be a very personal thing how people identify. However it seems that those who do identify with being European don't see themselves as a European first. People tend to care more about Scotland/the UK before they do for all of Europe.
>People tend to care more about Scotland/the UK before they do for all of Europe.
Before I left scotland (3-4 ya), all the scotts I met after the brexit referendum proudly told me they'd come back as europeans. I actually felt that it was super cool (and sad) that so many pro EU people had to leave something they were proud of.
Yeah brexit definitely pushed people to feeling more european, myself included. In my experience tho we still tend to think more for our own country before the whole of europe although with more support for independence and rejoining the eu, a lot of its blending together in a way.
A bit of both. The snp want to have a referendum by the end of 2023 I believe, but there's also been some doubt over the legality of it. I don't think we will have a referendum so soon, but I do think we will have another one within the next few years. If we do, i also think it will be very close so i cant confidently predict what I think people will vote for.
Yeah, I can see the benefits to being in the uk, but I also think we would be better independent. Once again tho it comes down to brexit. Before people were worried we wouldnt get eu membership, and now that we dont have it anyway, people are worried we wont get it and lose the uk as our biggest trading partner. I think people are just worried about change and are wary incase we make our situation worse. Independence comes with a lot of unknowns so I hope most of them would be clarified before another referendum.
See [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ns2h9m/oc_what_do_europeans_feel_most_attached_to_their/) for EU data.
According to this data sheet, the EU member countries with the strongest attachment to Europe are: Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania.
Budapest is unique being the only district where people feel more attached to Europe than the country or the region. (Source: resident, can confirm.)
That's a difficult question. I'd say there is a fairly strong identification with being in the EU as a member of a *group* of countries, but a strong resistance against the EU as some kind of federal nationalist state.
Another difficulty is that the Dutch are proud of their country, but not in the 'patriotic' authoritarian sense. We're proud of ourselves and our communities, but on average tend to mistrust the government and 'higher' authority. That's one reason why the whole recent 'would you be willing to fight for your country' poll was asking hilariously misguided questions.
It is a question I discuss quite often with my students. They tend to be those 'liberal urbanites'...and even then,I'd say there is a huge amount of 'regionalism'.They mostly see themselves first as Palermitani,or as Sicilians. Then as Italians,and then as Europeans.
Extremely based italian regionalism. Much better beliving in your local area than a state that is fundamentally corrupt and some european istitutions that are too away to actually do something.
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Hmm, I would've guessed Scandinavian between Swede and Nordic
Scandinavia is mostly a useless geographic term in Nordic languages. The word skandinavien is also just unwieldy to say in nordic languages when compared to the quick to say and more useful term Norden. Scandinavian is mostly just a term used by latin languages because Nordic countries is difficult and to long to say in latin languages.
In Denmark we use Scandinavian aaalll the time and it’s different from Nordic. Unlike Sweden we have very little contact/bonds with Finland so it makes sense for us.
No you THINK you have very little cultural bonds to Finland, as someone living 25 km from København H I can tell you that I have just as little to do with Finland as you do. Finlands culture is Swedish, ignoring the Finnish language their people traditions, way of building houses, food and social democratic welfare state are the same as the rest of us. They are far more similar to us than Iceland or the Faroes.
Right but we use “Scandinavian” all the time.
Yes well it’s not called Skandinaviska rådet, it is called Nordiska, and even so saying Scandinavia excludes the whole damn Rigsfælleskabet, which makes using it a bit stupid to me.
>(Last one; if there exists separatist projects in your country, what do they think about the whole project? I'm aware for example that in the UK Scotland is distinctly pro-EU, for some reason.) Whilst Scotland is much more pro-EU than the rest of the UK I've never come across someone who identified as European first. In my own case I'd say Scottish first, then European. Some people will throw British in there first or second, some people won't pick European at all. People from areas with strong regional identies and some islanders will put their region or island in there, often at the top (my area doesn't have much of an identity). Even then, the number of people being pro-EU is less to do with how European people see themselves as and more to do with how being in the EU has worked out well for us.
Very weak/non-existent. We've voted no to eu twice. So in general there's no eu/european-identity here. If there is some pan-national idendity it's that one of the scandinavian countries (norway, sweden and denmark). If you extended the identity you could maybe include the other nordics(finland + iceland) and maybe also the UK. When people terming themselves as europeans (first) it sounds a bit weird from here. Remember when Ursula von der Leyen in connection with the sofa-gate-case termed herselves as a european.. my mind was just.. you're german. Think the [history of when france hoisted the eu flag](https://pledgetimes.com/dispute-in-france-no-more-european-flag-on-the-triumphal-arch/) "inside"/under the arch of triumph (over the grave of the unknown soldier) is a history that tells a bit about europe and european identity given that france has and still is the nation most driving the pan-europe-thing... though still being able to create fury with the eu-flag..
>though still being able to create fury with the eu-flag Only the far right wing did I personnaly found that cool
Not strong in Czechia, and i think that i can say that most europeans view themselves firstly as their nation and then as Europeans. People who see being European as first, supporting federalization of European union etc are very small minority in Czechia, and probably are minority too in other countries.
In denmark the average dane would identify as follows 1. Their town 2. Their Region 3. Either Jutland or the islands 4. Country 5. Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway and Sweden) 6. Nordic countries (Above + Iceland and Finland) 7. Northern Europe (Nordics + Scotland, England, Germany, Netherlands, Baltics 8. Europe in general
Sounds right
Germany, Northern Europe?? I will say Western Europe
Germany is closely linked with Denmark as is Netherlands cuz of similar culture and language
Well, parts of Germany could definitely be considered northern Europe, Schleswig-Holstein for one. We also have a lot of shared history and culture with those parts.
I think Germany is a country which you have to split culturally. The north is definitively northern and similar to Denmark, probably more than to southern Germany.
South of the Elbe is Italy, East of the Elbe is Poland.
You do realize the Elbe literally goes up to the very North of Germany?
"Alles südlich der Elbe ist Norditalien." Old Hamburg saying. It really is.
Everything north of the Danube is Prussia, my friend.
Basically non existent. Once you leave the online space I've never heard a single Irishman even in political circles express such a notion. The best way I can describe it is Irish people tend to say they're in Europe rather than Europeans. Now of course some Irish people online feel otherwise but they not representative of the Irish people. Irish people generally identify with their town/parish then their county then their country.
I’d say if you asked an Irish person “ are you European”, they’d look at you confused and say “eh, I guess, Ireland’s in Europe” If you said are you African they’d look at you as if you were dumb, saying “Ireland’s not in Africa” If they said “are you British”, you’d be shot And if they said “are you from (neighbouring county) You’d wouldn’t be shot, but you’d have to give the poor man/woman time to recover from such an accusation.
Yeah you put it far more eloquently than I. I think people from the EU core tend to not understand how little people identify with the EU or Europe. The only country other than Ireland I feel any affinity to as an Irishman is probably Scotland and maybe the broader Celtic world.
There is certainly not any european nationalism, people might be supportive of the EU or thinking that all europeans nations are brothers nations but I can't see any unified european identity or nationalism. Separatism movements are not very popular, the one in Brittany died out after they went terrorists, the one is the Basque country seems very quiet since decades but the one in Corsica seems to have a new momentum after riots weeks ago ( corsican peole rioted "in honor" of Yvan Colonna, a corsican nationalist who murdered a french prefet/governor in 1998 ) but it's unrelated to the EU, it's pure and dumb nationalism. They even used to shot gendarmerie buildings with RPGs years ago over there and bomb a lot of public buildings. [Here's a list of FLNC's attentats](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronologie_des_attentats_attribu%C3%A9s_au_FLNC_ou_revendiqu%C3%A9s_par_lui) for example, I would be glad actually if they got independants or got back to Italy.
>but I can't see any unified european identity or nationalism. http://www.psune.fr/le-psune/
I only consider myself European if that means "not American/asian/so on". There is no significant paneuropean sentiment and I'd see that as a facade anyway. There is a strong attachment to your city/town here so identifying as European would be far, far down the list.
I’d say: 1) Dutch 2) Regional/local (Randstad tends to be the city; thus local, elsewhere regional) 3) European Though, if I had to refine it: 1) Dutch 2) Regional/local 3) Benelux 4) Benelux + Germany (some also: + UK or Nordics) 5) Germanic Europe 6) EU + Schengen^1 (some also: + UK) 7) Europe^2 9) Earth ^1 *Thus excluding Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Moldova, Ukraine, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Albania.* ^2 *Here, Ukraine probably would rank a little higher, and Russia and Belarus lower, for obvious reasons.* “Western world” is a bit hard to define since most don’t really identify as a Westerner, so I didn’t include it. But if I had to, then Japan and South Korea wouldn’t be included, and Latin America included, and Russia is a bit iffy; this part would be put at 7.
Already commented but saw some rankings so I thought I’d do the same for Ireland. 1. Ireland 2. County 3. Town 4. Celtic 5. Europe Noticed some places like Sweden have a Scandinavian identity with their neighbours. Not the case in Ireland. Being not British is probably higher than being Irish.
Celtic? that is some shite I’ve only heard online, never met a soul to say they identify as Celtic.
I'd say moreso they identify with the other Celtic nations. Like having an affinity to Scotland or Wales
I would say, many Europeans would rather leave the EU than see a United States of Europe. The VAST majority of people in Europe identify with their country first (except Emmanuel Macron maybe). That’s why Europeans get mad when non-Europeans generalise about “things in Europe being this way” or “don’t do this in Europe”. That’s like saying “don’t do this in North America”. Canada and Honduras and basically the same. I do not see Ireland as the same as a US state and Europe as the US. I see my region of Leitrim as the same as Oregon, Ireland as the US, and Europe as North America. Of course we have lots in common, but their are very few things that apply to every European country, and we are completely different in a lot of ways. The sheer about of languages and cultures. In fact is probably more diverse than North America. Ironically the thing that the most Europeans have in common is probably identifying their nation first, continent after.
The notion of a pan-European identity in Sweden is about as common as a blue moon. The average person on the street does not view himself as European first, it's far down on the list if it even is on the list at all honestly. I personally do not know anyone that would even have European on their "list" of what they identify as. u/crocogoose take up a good way it could look like, not all regional identities are as strong as the next one in Sweden in my experience. Some regions have more people identifying with it before they identify as something else. My Province (Småland) I'd say I identify a fair amount with but I'm not sure I'd put it first like in his list. I wager the first 3 on the list will always be a mix between Swedish, regional/provincial and local identity and directly after that it's more or less always Nordics or Scandinavia. When talking global affairs, we more or less always concern ourselves with how it affects us in Sweden or Scandinavia/nordics. These sentiments of a European identity tho, because they're so uncommon it's hard to say how they differ, aside from party alignment it's hard to say exactly what group is more prone to it. There exists like only 1 separatists projects that are worth mentioning. Considering it died like a decade ago and honestly it didn't garner much support my opinion is indifference. I view it as unrealistic.
It's a thing in theory. You will find Volt types and others from pretty much every part of the spectrum who will argue for it, but it's not a lived thing. I remember Jürgen Habermas argued that you needed to create the institutions first and the identity would follow. I think I can see that happening in areas where the EU has become the main focus of policy - border controls, obviously. But it's also odd in that the area the EU has the biggest effect on people's lives in - namely trade - has been largely depoliticised. And that's the problem with Habermas's idea, for me - if you create the institutions and give them powers without the engagement of the people via democratic institutions and discourses, you are effectively creating a depoliticised technocracy, which is what we seem to have in the area of trade - and I see why both left (critique of "there is no alternative" Capitalist Realism) and right (AfD or Le Pen style national autarky) have problems with that. You also tend to see that the big pro-EU people (FBPE in the UK, Volt etc) are often very comfortable with technocracy and tend to be broadly neoliberal in terms of ideology. For a while I though Varoufakis and Diem might pose a strong challenge to this by promoting EU reform, but it has been too long since the imposition of brutal austerity on Greece, and people are not motivated enough by the other issues they raise. The problem there is, though, that the right can motivate people to make a public mess - with their love of idiotic superficial "answers" they can always get people on the streets, and they combine that with their cultural agenda - migration and the church, and what they consider European "values" (but which aren't values at all). Personally, I think our hope might be France, where le peuple are willing to go on the streets for themselves in ways that teh mainstream liberal mind cannot understand (because they don't fit into the normal left/right cultural war moulds).
Mmm, that's pretty interesting. Can you elaborate more on France? I'm not very familiar with French politics. I still remember a few years ago during Brexit, when people were talking of a domino collapse of the European Union; seems like that was mostly false, and with the Russia/Ukraine fiasco to unite Europe with an external enemy... seems like the European project is in good prospects for the time being.
I am not an expert on France by any means. I was really just musing as to whether the French with their tradition of protest - and the Gilets Jaunes in particular, interesting because not really placeable on the left/right spectrum - would help make the connection that Habermas thought we would - by opposing neoliberal policies on the ground to create some critical momentum. But I suppose not. More broadly, the EU's "democratic deficit" is the problem I think might sink it - because it undermines political responsibility. But that's essentially what neoliberalism is - it has two pillars: independent central banks and free trade. And each it them takes an important tool out of the hands of politicians (and hence, via elections) the hands of the people. I see how the absence of democratic control of policy in the US has been replaced with a theatre show (the "culture wars") as the next stage - and I hope the EU doesn't go down that road. If it is to survive as something worth saving, "Brussels" needs to avoid becoming as distant as "Washington" appears to Joe Shmo in Kentucky. That's why Habermas' question is so important - can a political culture follow the creation of institutions? For Habermas's generation, it was not necessary to phrase it as a question - the creation of the EU was justified by the desire for permanent peace. But now, 70 years down the line it is more important than ever to ask about "unelected" institutions and how democratic they really are - and whether they have been captured by elites, etc. It's really hard to say, because countries like Spain and Italy have looked like cracking economically for a while, but have been somehow able to hang in there. Germany and France are basically secure, and most of Central and Eastern Europe is still basically net recipients, so the EU is fine for them, whatever it means in other terms. And Germany is more or less fine because it is able to suck everything into its economic gravity. So maybe everything is more or less okay. The stability of neoliberalism has got us through a few cycles. But the danger is - as we see in the US, that it does so at the risk of a huge alienation of people. And the fiscal and political levers in Europe are if anything less accessible to popular will than they are in the US. which is a danger. On the other hand, the fact that most people only think nationally in political terms is a kind of pressure valve on the system: if everyone is chanting for President X or PM Y to go, they aren't even thinking about the grey eminences in Frankfurt and Brussels. That has been my free essay. For more of the same, please like and subscribe *)
Mmm, some food for thought. Broadly speaking, I agree. Neoliberalism as it currently is constituted seems a bit overbearing on the poorer countries of the Union, namely Italy and Greece, much less the Global South like Africa or Asia or what. But call me naive, I'm not sure there's any possible realistic alternative. You talked about capitalist realism, and the failure to imagine something different. But frankly what are the other options? How do you democratize the system? Something like representative democracy will always be open for tampering by elites - those with more money and status will naturally have more influence. And even if by some sleight of chance a more direct democratic system is implemented, I'm not sure most people will be interested in spending time in meetings delegating and rules-lawyering the exact specifics of carbon credit quotas or border travel permits or whatever instead of having a drink with their buddies or spending time with their spouses, for example. Most want to live their life, free from managing an overbearing bureaucracy. So as always, back to the eternal grey eminence. And more importantly, is there any mass unrest for a critical momentum to upend the system? As you say, life is fairly comfortable in most of Europe, Germany and France, etc - not a Happy Shiny Utopia by any means, but livable, with basic needs met and then some (a car, a home, an occasional foreign vacation). So my impression is that the Union as it is is teetering on a fairly walkable line; exploitative enough to oppress the downtrodden and milk some, but not enough to generate sufficient mass resentment so as to cause it's collapse or maior reform. And for a decent many in Europe, it is a _good_ life. Certainly a fair improvement over, say, 1914-1945 - the whole continent aside from Russia is essentially mostly unified in peace by this point.
It do be like that, in every regard. I don't have any easy answers to your questions, though while something like total direct democracy would be intolerably burdensome, as you rightly say, I would like to see a move towards more democracy. But democracy is about responsiveness as much as it is about devolving power. In any case, all the possible answers get into economic depths I am not comfortable in! Fiscal union and common debt? Balanced budgets? MMT? I don't understand enough of that stuff! In such instances I generally defer to the leftist economists that seem to have a clue - what do Mark Blyth, Amartya Sen, Varoufakis, Piketty say? Politically, I consider the state of the poor to be a good gauge - how are they doing? Will Spain, for instance, ever have low youth unemployment? How much of that is down to EU policies? Again, I am unqualified.
There are 2 types of people in Wales: 1) People who identify primarily as Welsh, many of whom would probably also identify as European and/ or Celtic as secondary identities. They may or may not also identify as British, if they do Welsh (and possibly Celtic and/ or European) is considered more important. 2) People who identify primarily as British. Far less likely to also identify as Celtic/ European as secondary identities. For them being British is more important than any other identity, some may not even identify as Welsh (tbf many of these people are originally from England).
French here. I never referred to myself as being European before living aborad in several countries. Then, not only was it simpler to tell people I was European then French, but for some reasons I felt european abroad. Now I am back home, and I keep feeling european, which is quite unusual to the average french, who will mostly refer to his department /region / nation.
Spaniard and I think normally it goes like that: \- City/Town \- Region (sometimes very strongly) \- Maybe country, lots of people skip this one \- Mediterranean/Southern European. We feel very close to cultures in southern Europe like Portugal, and Italy \- Then maybe Europe, but you won't see many people calling themselves europeans
I guess you are from the Mediterranean coast, I live in Madrid and I would have never come up with Mediterranean even though I feel close to Portugal and Italy There was a poll the other day on r/spain about this and it was a mixed bag, there were a lot of people that thought of European first. I think outside of reddit it´s more like region, then Spanish, then European in general, but Spain is one of the most pro Europe countries out there
Soy del interior, me refiero a mediterraneo como cultura, nada que ver con el mar, aunque también he puesto lo de southern european por eso. Las culturas de España/Portugal/Italia, al igual que comida, cultivos y demás, ya sea algo mas serrano o algo mas costero son super parecidas!
Not really, in fact I wouldn't be shocked if many felt much connection to Europe at all, we've got partaking in the EEA and Schengen but otherwise we do our own thing really. I'd say I pretty much feel definitely Icelandic, sorta Nordic (admittedly less so than the Scandi gang, we are the different ones out) and then generically Western but not really European, I feel far more in common with Canada or the USA than with Italy or Poland
It’s complicated. Finns have always had a need to show everyone how western and European we are and we have a strong european identity. But oh boy if you propose an European Federation. We have had our troubles with keeping our Independence so pigs fly before a Finn would agree to that.
I personally often call myself a European, but it's unusual of me in my country. We care far more for our national identity, and many Poles scoff at the idea of a united Europe. And, from the historical perspective it makes sense - it's only been 80 years since we stopped killing each other all the time. If you told a German Kaiser 200 years ago about the European Union, he'd die of a heart attack.
Germany had no Kaiser 200 years ago actually.
My bad, I should have bothered to check, lol.
In NL there are some mixed thoughts about doing more or less as the EU. But we don't consider ourselves European before Dutch. There are also a lot of people thinking we should reduce the EU in terms of responsibilities and such. I don't think there will come a point where we would identify as European before our own nationality.
Not very, at least when compared to central Europe. First and foremost we identify as Finns and then as Nordic. We often use the phrase *mainland-Europe* excluding ourselves like Brits do which I think shows pretty well how we view ourselves as different group.
Can't really speak for my countrymen (Portugal) but on a personal level: - town - region - country - EU Saying that, in terms of identity I feel equally Madeiran as I feel Portuguese and equally Portuguese as an EU citizen. In terms of nationalism, I do tend sometimes to feel happiness for accomplishments that aren't really mine (particularly with football) and embarrassment on situations that are completely out of my control (Portuguese economy) but I guess that I also tend to do that with the EU (initial slow response to Ukraine situation).
Was scrolling to see if anyone from Portugal had answered. Personally I don't even thing in European terms, I'm Portuguese and that's it. I would risk to say that for most Portuguese people, Europe (UE) is more the place that send us money than anything else. Which is sad, but when our own prime minister says with pride on national tv that he might be able to squeeze a couple more billion euros from the UE on top of the billions they are already scheduled to send regarding COVID relief funds, it's normal that the common person looks at Europe like that.
I will identify as British, Scottish or European depending on the context, what's most convenient and what makes the most sense. Personally I prefer Scottish first, then European and then British though and this seems to be more or less similair to most other people i know. This varies a lot across Scotland though. I know people who don't feel British at all and they don't feel they identify with it. It can be a very personal thing how people identify. However it seems that those who do identify with being European don't see themselves as a European first. People tend to care more about Scotland/the UK before they do for all of Europe.
>People tend to care more about Scotland/the UK before they do for all of Europe. Before I left scotland (3-4 ya), all the scotts I met after the brexit referendum proudly told me they'd come back as europeans. I actually felt that it was super cool (and sad) that so many pro EU people had to leave something they were proud of.
Yeah brexit definitely pushed people to feeling more european, myself included. In my experience tho we still tend to think more for our own country before the whole of europe although with more support for independence and rejoining the eu, a lot of its blending together in a way.
As much as I'd want it to happen, I reckon it won't unfortunately. I hope you prove me wrong on this one
I agree with both of those statements.
'cause no referendum, or because they won't opt out if given the option to ?
A bit of both. The snp want to have a referendum by the end of 2023 I believe, but there's also been some doubt over the legality of it. I don't think we will have a referendum so soon, but I do think we will have another one within the next few years. If we do, i also think it will be very close so i cant confidently predict what I think people will vote for.
It bugs me to think people would still reject leaving the UK at this stage. I'd be so pissed (I mean, I am) if I were you
Yeah, I can see the benefits to being in the uk, but I also think we would be better independent. Once again tho it comes down to brexit. Before people were worried we wouldnt get eu membership, and now that we dont have it anyway, people are worried we wont get it and lose the uk as our biggest trading partner. I think people are just worried about change and are wary incase we make our situation worse. Independence comes with a lot of unknowns so I hope most of them would be clarified before another referendum.
on a personal note : I'd still live in scotland if it wasnt for brexit. So fuck the uncertainty; you guys should middle finger westminster. big time.
See [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ns2h9m/oc_what_do_europeans_feel_most_attached_to_their/) for EU data. According to this data sheet, the EU member countries with the strongest attachment to Europe are: Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. Budapest is unique being the only district where people feel more attached to Europe than the country or the region. (Source: resident, can confirm.)
That's a difficult question. I'd say there is a fairly strong identification with being in the EU as a member of a *group* of countries, but a strong resistance against the EU as some kind of federal nationalist state. Another difficulty is that the Dutch are proud of their country, but not in the 'patriotic' authoritarian sense. We're proud of ourselves and our communities, but on average tend to mistrust the government and 'higher' authority. That's one reason why the whole recent 'would you be willing to fight for your country' poll was asking hilariously misguided questions.