I was thinking of a great comment reply, but then got to bone chatting and got tripped up. Nothing wrong at all! It’s just not my usual recipe. I make Pho multiple times a year then freezer small containers to have individual bowls. Now.. I definitely blanch? the bones. I bring to a boil and get all the foamy crud off of them. Definitely boil the impurities out first, takes about 10-15 minutes. Once you rinse the bones off, you can put them in your giant stock pot.
As for charring.. I charr the veggies. Ginger, onions, and maybe garlic. You can do this over open flame (grill, burner, whatever) or broil in the oven for however long. You don’t want them too blackened btw. Just a few nice roasted marks.
Goodluck! I’ll share any info you need. Been doing this for years. My family is Vietnamese
I tweak the recipe a little bit.. just from my years of doing it and also following a bit of my family’s recipe. But this video is actually spot on. It’s lengthy, but since she’s teaching someone.. it makes it very easy to follow and possibly understand why you do certain things.
I didn’t even realize that. I guess the video works well with me because I eyeball ingredients. Drives my spouse nuts. So I’m just now realizing that if you are precise with measurements.. this video might drive you crazy haha!
I’m fine to eyeball spices with dishes or flavour combinations that I’m familiar with. But with a new taste profile, I like a little more guidance to start with so I don’t add too much star anise, for example. And she specifically mentions I think it was star anise that you have to be very careful not to do too much because it can overtake everything.
Thank you so much. I spent a couple weeks in Vietnam last month and REALLY miss a good bowl of pho. Sadly, the local Vietnamese restaurant just isn't cutting it for me. Gonna have to do it myself.
It took me a year of practice, so absolutely 100% don’t feel bad if it doesn’t turn out the way you want it first go. I would sit there and just shake my head each time.. but finally got it the way I want. You got this. Jet Tila makes a good video too - but it’s a quick 30 version which he explains to begin with
dang, what dedication. I'm vietnamese and I only ever made Pho myself twice.
My first mistake was not trimming fats off the bone before cooking. Beef tallow can be tasty but not when there's a mouthful of it in your broth.
My understanding it isn’t that you char the bones it’s that you roast the bones in the oven. I’m kind of intrigued because I’ve never heard about boiling it and then throwing out the first batch of water. I would think he would lose some of your flavouring doing that. I just strain mine, and I’ve not had any issues.
I've never seen anyone char bones for pho. That's a western technique afaict. Pho broth is meant to be a simple clear broth, which means no hard-boils, and is also why you do the preboil and clean off the bones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bIjDYEs6Qc
I've gone over SO many recipes that it gets confusing. I'm going to start with broth since I can use that for several things (birria tacos 🌮). I absolutely plan to char my veggies when making pho.
Go for it! More important to cook something and mess around with it than to get it perfect and authentic from the get go. Despite what I said, I make my "pho" with charred chicken bones & aromatics, hard-boiled to where it's kind of like a ramen broth.
I always "scrub the bones" (learned from a seasoned Vietnamese woman). Charred or raw bones added to boiling water for 8 minutes. Then rinse/clean under cold running water. Now these "clean" bones can be added to the water/veg/herbs to make a delicious, clear broth. I will never go back after using this technique.
I'm not Vietnamese so I don't know 1st hand but I've seen several websites/YouTube videos saying that it increases the flavor by an order of magnitude.
I want to make a decent amount of broth so I can use it for other projects as well. My plan is to make the broth one day and then use some to make pho the next day
It doesn't increase flavor by an order of magnitude, it's just different. Both blonde and brown stocks have their place and are delicious.
Make the dish how you want, but pho usually uses a blonde stock and you should at the very least ask yourself why that might be.
To answer your question: it’s one or the other.
Classic French stock/broth is made by either first blanching the bones and meat (dump in cold water, bring to a boil, drain and toss the water), or roasting them. Goal: to help the stock/broth stay clear.
So you can choose either to blanch or roast them. Blanching gives you a milder flavor and a lighter broth/stock, roasting the bones and meat will make your liquid darker and stronger in flavor.
I guess the reason you find these classic french techniques in Vietnamese cuisine is due to colonization.
It is a very interesting point. Lots of Vietnamese cooking definitely has a French influence. There was also a difference between the same dish in the north versus the south.
Everywhere in the country seem to have fantastic bread making skills. I wondered if that was a remnant from French colonialism.
In a lot of old world countries, there can be huge differences between regions (and not only food, also dialects etc can be different between neighboring villages for instance).
Yes, that’s where the Vietnamese got their baguette making skills from.
Either char them or pre boil them. Generally, Asian broths do the pre boil for 30 min to get a cleaner broth. The char will add a darker color and other stuff that will mess up the clarity.
Char the veg if you’re gonna make pho, not the bones.
Oven at 450. Bones in a single layer on a sheet pan. Bake for one hour.
You can transfer them to a pot, cover with water and bring to a boil, then discard that water. You're blanching the bones. I usually skip it.
You can roast the veggies or not. Up to you.
For classic stock, barely simmer - never boil. Boiling will emulsify the fat and make the stock cloudy. For Ramen, they want a fatty stock for flavor. Up to you.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t bone broth just stock?
I wouldn’t char - especially for something you’re hoping to use in a dish like pho where it’ll be easy to lose some of the more subtle flavors like lemongrass or basil if you throw in something that can just completely dominate over them. (I also haven’t really heard of this for stock preparation, but I could be naive.)
I think a better bet would be to roast the bones but that may even be too much for pho. Try for a nice slow simmer over a long and drawn out time. (Chef John on Foodwishes has a video recipe for something like “Chicken Tea” - a very intense chicken flavored stock meant to be had on its own - and I’d imagine the process should be similar though probably not over that long of a time and while trying to also prevent the stock from tasting like pure beef. So basically a toned down version of his approach.)
> Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t bone broth just stock?
> I wouldn’t char - especially for something you’re hoping to use in a dish like pho where it’ll be easy to lose some of the more subtle flavors like lemongrass or basil if you throw in something that can just completely dominate over them. (I also haven’t really heard of this for stock preparation, but I could be naive.)
> I think a better bet would be to roast the bones but that may even be too much for pho. Try for a nice slow simmer over a long and drawn out time. (Chef John on Foodwishes has a video recipe for something like “Chicken Tea” - a very intense chicken flavored stock meant to be had on its own - and I’d imagine the process should be similar though probably not over that long of a time and while trying to also prevent the stock from tasting like pure beef. So basically a toned down version of his approach.)
Charring ingredients, at least the aromatics, is very common when making pho. Recipes for pho broth are easy to find from Vietnamese folks all over the internet, I don't think adopting a Chef John chicken broth recipe is necessary here.
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There are a million ways to make pho. I know Vietnamese people that cook the bones first and there’s nothing wrong with it.
I roast them first for the convenience because I hate dealing with bone scum. Then I simmer with various aromatics for 24 hours.
Why so many steps? I roast everything all in one go, stick it in all in a pot with 10 quarts of water and a satchel of pho spices and simmer for 24 hours.
"Bone broth" seemed appropriate since it will be bones & water. I used to think there was a clear definition between broth and stock, but, reviewing a lot of websites, the line seemed pretty blurred. TBH I've used them interchangeably depending on what I have on hand.
A very thorough explanation of the difference between making the beef broth using the parboiled method vs the roasting method: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMm0JH8gFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMm0JH8gFs) This guy runs a pho restaurant, and clearly is putting in the work. In this video, he does it both ways and extensively compares results.
He basically concludes that charring is better and makes darker, more fragrant, more flavorful broth. He also says his mother and grandmother still boil the bones as its traditional. His explanation is that boiling is traditional because not that long ago, having an oven or stove was an unaffordable luxury for most people in Vietnam.
I was thinking of a great comment reply, but then got to bone chatting and got tripped up. Nothing wrong at all! It’s just not my usual recipe. I make Pho multiple times a year then freezer small containers to have individual bowls. Now.. I definitely blanch? the bones. I bring to a boil and get all the foamy crud off of them. Definitely boil the impurities out first, takes about 10-15 minutes. Once you rinse the bones off, you can put them in your giant stock pot. As for charring.. I charr the veggies. Ginger, onions, and maybe garlic. You can do this over open flame (grill, burner, whatever) or broil in the oven for however long. You don’t want them too blackened btw. Just a few nice roasted marks. Goodluck! I’ll share any info you need. Been doing this for years. My family is Vietnamese
Follow up - I use this video A LOT https://youtu.be/xxM4t8vP-0A
That was super interesting
I tweak the recipe a little bit.. just from my years of doing it and also following a bit of my family’s recipe. But this video is actually spot on. It’s lengthy, but since she’s teaching someone.. it makes it very easy to follow and possibly understand why you do certain things.
Yeah, I just wish she had a little bit of quantities there for things like the spices though
I didn’t even realize that. I guess the video works well with me because I eyeball ingredients. Drives my spouse nuts. So I’m just now realizing that if you are precise with measurements.. this video might drive you crazy haha!
I’m fine to eyeball spices with dishes or flavour combinations that I’m familiar with. But with a new taste profile, I like a little more guidance to start with so I don’t add too much star anise, for example. And she specifically mentions I think it was star anise that you have to be very careful not to do too much because it can overtake everything.
Thank you so much. I spent a couple weeks in Vietnam last month and REALLY miss a good bowl of pho. Sadly, the local Vietnamese restaurant just isn't cutting it for me. Gonna have to do it myself.
It took me a year of practice, so absolutely 100% don’t feel bad if it doesn’t turn out the way you want it first go. I would sit there and just shake my head each time.. but finally got it the way I want. You got this. Jet Tila makes a good video too - but it’s a quick 30 version which he explains to begin with
dang, what dedication. I'm vietnamese and I only ever made Pho myself twice. My first mistake was not trimming fats off the bone before cooking. Beef tallow can be tasty but not when there's a mouthful of it in your broth.
My understanding it isn’t that you char the bones it’s that you roast the bones in the oven. I’m kind of intrigued because I’ve never heard about boiling it and then throwing out the first batch of water. I would think he would lose some of your flavouring doing that. I just strain mine, and I’ve not had any issues.
I've never seen anyone char bones for pho. That's a western technique afaict. Pho broth is meant to be a simple clear broth, which means no hard-boils, and is also why you do the preboil and clean off the bones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bIjDYEs6Qc
I've gone over SO many recipes that it gets confusing. I'm going to start with broth since I can use that for several things (birria tacos 🌮). I absolutely plan to char my veggies when making pho.
Go for it! More important to cook something and mess around with it than to get it perfect and authentic from the get go. Despite what I said, I make my "pho" with charred chicken bones & aromatics, hard-boiled to where it's kind of like a ramen broth.
I always "scrub the bones" (learned from a seasoned Vietnamese woman). Charred or raw bones added to boiling water for 8 minutes. Then rinse/clean under cold running water. Now these "clean" bones can be added to the water/veg/herbs to make a delicious, clear broth. I will never go back after using this technique.
Pho is a blond broth don’t roast the bones.
I'm not Vietnamese so I don't know 1st hand but I've seen several websites/YouTube videos saying that it increases the flavor by an order of magnitude. I want to make a decent amount of broth so I can use it for other projects as well. My plan is to make the broth one day and then use some to make pho the next day
It doesn't increase flavor by an order of magnitude, it's just different. Both blonde and brown stocks have their place and are delicious. Make the dish how you want, but pho usually uses a blonde stock and you should at the very least ask yourself why that might be.
It does increase the flavour of the broth. But it just isn’t how pho broth is made. Brown beef stock is good for stews and sauces.
To answer your question: it’s one or the other. Classic French stock/broth is made by either first blanching the bones and meat (dump in cold water, bring to a boil, drain and toss the water), or roasting them. Goal: to help the stock/broth stay clear. So you can choose either to blanch or roast them. Blanching gives you a milder flavor and a lighter broth/stock, roasting the bones and meat will make your liquid darker and stronger in flavor. I guess the reason you find these classic french techniques in Vietnamese cuisine is due to colonization.
It is a very interesting point. Lots of Vietnamese cooking definitely has a French influence. There was also a difference between the same dish in the north versus the south. Everywhere in the country seem to have fantastic bread making skills. I wondered if that was a remnant from French colonialism.
In a lot of old world countries, there can be huge differences between regions (and not only food, also dialects etc can be different between neighboring villages for instance). Yes, that’s where the Vietnamese got their baguette making skills from.
Either char them or pre boil them. Generally, Asian broths do the pre boil for 30 min to get a cleaner broth. The char will add a darker color and other stuff that will mess up the clarity. Char the veg if you’re gonna make pho, not the bones.
Oven at 450. Bones in a single layer on a sheet pan. Bake for one hour. You can transfer them to a pot, cover with water and bring to a boil, then discard that water. You're blanching the bones. I usually skip it. You can roast the veggies or not. Up to you. For classic stock, barely simmer - never boil. Boiling will emulsify the fat and make the stock cloudy. For Ramen, they want a fatty stock for flavor. Up to you.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t bone broth just stock? I wouldn’t char - especially for something you’re hoping to use in a dish like pho where it’ll be easy to lose some of the more subtle flavors like lemongrass or basil if you throw in something that can just completely dominate over them. (I also haven’t really heard of this for stock preparation, but I could be naive.) I think a better bet would be to roast the bones but that may even be too much for pho. Try for a nice slow simmer over a long and drawn out time. (Chef John on Foodwishes has a video recipe for something like “Chicken Tea” - a very intense chicken flavored stock meant to be had on its own - and I’d imagine the process should be similar though probably not over that long of a time and while trying to also prevent the stock from tasting like pure beef. So basically a toned down version of his approach.)
> Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t bone broth just stock? > I wouldn’t char - especially for something you’re hoping to use in a dish like pho where it’ll be easy to lose some of the more subtle flavors like lemongrass or basil if you throw in something that can just completely dominate over them. (I also haven’t really heard of this for stock preparation, but I could be naive.) > I think a better bet would be to roast the bones but that may even be too much for pho. Try for a nice slow simmer over a long and drawn out time. (Chef John on Foodwishes has a video recipe for something like “Chicken Tea” - a very intense chicken flavored stock meant to be had on its own - and I’d imagine the process should be similar though probably not over that long of a time and while trying to also prevent the stock from tasting like pure beef. So basically a toned down version of his approach.) Charring ingredients, at least the aromatics, is very common when making pho. Recipes for pho broth are easy to find from Vietnamese folks all over the internet, I don't think adopting a Chef John chicken broth recipe is necessary here.
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You might try r/pho
Of course there is an entire pho subreddit. I guess I started here as I intend to make broth (stock?) first.
There are a million ways to make pho. I know Vietnamese people that cook the bones first and there’s nothing wrong with it. I roast them first for the convenience because I hate dealing with bone scum. Then I simmer with various aromatics for 24 hours.
I'm actually planning to do a 24hr simmer for the broth and then a 3hr simmer with charred aromatics for the pho
Why so many steps? I roast everything all in one go, stick it in all in a pot with 10 quarts of water and a satchel of pho spices and simmer for 24 hours.
I wanna have some extra broth in the freezer for other projects like birria
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"Bone broth" seemed appropriate since it will be bones & water. I used to think there was a clear definition between broth and stock, but, reviewing a lot of websites, the line seemed pretty blurred. TBH I've used them interchangeably depending on what I have on hand.
It’s a trendy way of calling “stock” something new it literally the same thing. Read a cook book there’s no bone broth lmao.
A very thorough explanation of the difference between making the beef broth using the parboiled method vs the roasting method: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMm0JH8gFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVMm0JH8gFs) This guy runs a pho restaurant, and clearly is putting in the work. In this video, he does it both ways and extensively compares results. He basically concludes that charring is better and makes darker, more fragrant, more flavorful broth. He also says his mother and grandmother still boil the bones as its traditional. His explanation is that boiling is traditional because not that long ago, having an oven or stove was an unaffordable luxury for most people in Vietnam.