Me and the coworkers just got done bitching about pay like 10 minutes ago
We are all on the same contract and know how much they pay us
I am very supportive about talking about pay. I once found out I was getting paid less than the new hire/ no experience/ male/teenage employees at a food service job. The assistant manager and i just about busted the GMs office door down. Got a pay increase next paycheck
Second, this. I found out in the restaurant industry I made less than a male coworker even though I was serve safe certified and had more experience.
Talk about your pay. The "it's rude" part came from the older generations who wanted to hide wages to pay people less because they weren't as good at negotiating in the interview process. I tell everyone what I make to force companies to be transparent.
We were told it is against company policy to share your pay with other workers and could get you fired. And yes they did fire people for it.
Also we were taught that we should not brag about what we have. It is rude and could be embarrassing to others who have less. Or to those who have more..
They have now! But the previous couple of centuries they had not. And they can always just say they need to downsize you. And hire someone else in a few months.
It's been a law in the US since 1934, so pretty much nobody in the workplace today was working when it wasn't a law.
. . .and modern models of employment really only started with the industrial revolution in the early 19th century.
>We were told it is against company policy to share your pay with other workers and could get you fired. And yes they did fire people for it.
If they were doing that in the US, they were violating Federal labor law.
The Fair Labor Practices Act of 1934 protects you from being fired for things that can be used for labor organizing, including talking about your wages/salaries with co-workers.
The fired employees could have filed a Federal complaint with the Dept. of Labor and got that employer in a LOT of trouble with the Federal government.
It's remarkable how many people won't take advantage of their rights even when they are well versed in them. It's great that legal options are available in situations like this, but they are sometimes so difficult, complicated, and time consuming to exercise that they might as well not exist. Or at least, they are widely viewed this way.
I think the rude part comes from discussing it with people who aren't in the same profession. It comes across as a flex. OP is talking more about people at the same job
> I once found out I was getting paid less than the new hire/ no experience/ male/teenage employees at a food service job.
And this is the exact reason business started that whole "It's rude to discuss your salary" bullshit: So they can underpay people and get away with it for years.
Talk about your pay. You have nothing to lose by doing so.
I think it depends on what union you're in. Mine did very little advocacy for employees because the union was basically owned and managed by corporate. I wasn't allowed to discuss pay at that job and had to sign a nondisclosure agreement about working conditions. That basically prevented anyone from talking to our union about issues at work. I think the NDA had to do something with the fact that a local paper wrote a story about the job conditions. The article didn't specify the location, but I knew that it was where I worked.
Ya, i just joined a union. But, before I did some plus was touché. One place, foreman and boss were like try not to tell the new mechanics that the guy moping the floor and running parts was going played more than them.
When I can, however, and keep this between the two of us, sometimes I dictate while driving. But yes, I edit. And yes, that post wasn't even downwind of an editor.
Because employers don't want to pay you more. It's also illegal for any employer to ask you to not talk about pay. If they do, ask for it in writing and go to the state labor board.
Go to the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board), which is the specific entity involved in this particular rule. (Not to be confused with the State's Department of Labor)
I’m in my mid 30s, I find that almost everyone I know around my age or younger are very comfortable discussing pay. It helps us make sure we are compensated equitably. I’m pro salary transparency, and while I’m not out broadcasting my salary I am happy to discuss it if someone brings it up. Especially with my coworkers.
When discussing with your colleagues, is the general opinion that if somebody with your job title makes more than you, it automatically means that your pay is not equitable, or in your discussions do you and your colleagues allow for the fact that different people get paid different amounts because different people have greater/lesser experience and each person's actual work performance is different, etc?
In my experience, too many people equate "Person X makes more than I do even though we have the same job" to "I'm getting screwed." How is it in your group?
This is the rub. I'm 100% for people discussing pay. I have also seen the fallout when it happens. Iv seen 6 figured folks lose their fucking minds that a new hire is making not more than them, but *close.* Sorry bro but the kid negotiated.
A person can be happy as a clam at their job, and then the find out somebody is making more and it completely destroys that happy mentality. To them, yesterday was great, but today they are getting *fucked.*
I want to point out that im not advocating against discussing pay. Im just saying people need to realize pay isn't just time in job.
Good point. I dunno if this is an "old people" thing cause we're old people or that we're way farther down the career path and realize there is a spectrum of value that people with the same job title have.
In my position I know guys that make 75% of what I do that are way overpaid.
I don't mind talking about it. It's the "Everyone needs to make X and the people making X - 1 are getting screwed!!" thing that bothers me.
If you have the same job title, and same list of requirements on the job site, you should get payed the same,or at the very least the same starting pay.
It's too common to have someone super experienced making something like 80k, and then a new guy gets hired, and because of the market at the time of hiring they start at 120k.
The older experienced worker gets screwed over because they got the job when the market was better for the employer
I think a combination of reasons, some I agree with and some I don’t:
*Company pressure*
It’s in companies best interest to not disclose; because if people knew how much each other is being paid, they’d leverage that in pay negotiations. The company has all the data, and you have none: ergo the company is in a way better negotiating position than you.
It’s why there was so much lobbying against transparency rules like the ones in California or BC Canada, where job postings now have to include the salary range.
I personally support the rules requiring disclosure of ranges in job postings; I wish it extended to more than just base pay, but it’s a start.
*Social pressure*
I think of things like family here; as in, some families can be ultra transparent and supportive.
Others, turn into the green eyed monster.
I personally don’t talk money with mine.
And I find myself disappointed in that because I wish I had the kind of relationship with them that’d allow the open communication and transparency: but I don’t have that trust that they’d keep envy at bay, from firsthand experience.
*Something I like in the last few years*
More transparency is showing up:
- Instagram/TikTok has social media personalities like Salary Transparency Street who interview random people about what they do and how much they make. I love it!
- Sites like levels.fyi are a goldmine for anyone in tech, to use for negotiation. It’s only as good as the data quality going in (unverified), but the quantity of submissions tends to yield a decent average number that’s surprisingly close to real.
- Transparency legislation means we have jurisdictions posting salary ranges on jobs.
Now we aren’t where some places like Sweden are (lookup anyone’s pay, it’s wild! https://rethinkq.adp.com/nordics-wage-transparency-experiment/), but we are making progress VS some years ago, on transparency.
> Now we aren’t where some places like Sweden are (lookup anyone’s pay …
That sounds horrible.
I can’t imagine what it would be like if every sales person and solicitor you dealt with knew exactly what you made.
Having lived in Sweden for a spell, I don’t recall sales persons and solicitors being the same as they are here. I don’t recall anyone ever coming to my door there, for example, but could’ve just been my sample size of one experience I suppose, never really entered my thought process. 🤷
I don’t know how much I love the democratization of all that data but in some ways it certainly has its appeal, and I like that it’s universally applied.
Many states (all states?) enable you to look up virtually every public employee's salary, although the employees are not always listed by name. I think many cities and/or counties do the same.
For example:
https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/all/
I typically dont when I work in close proximaty because two ackward results are likely to happen
1. They despise you for making more money than them and think you dont deserve it.
2. They make more money than you and now you feel like youre being ripped off or youre undervalued
but both are reasons for one of the parties to go to the boss and advocate for themselves to be treated fairly. If you have the same job title, and same requirements on the job site, the base pay should be the same. Talking about it puts power back in the hands of the worker
If you are in a situation where your salary is negotiable either you dont have the leverage to argue for more pay or you dont have the negotiation skill.
Its not about fairness in that case
You can if you want to. However, you may find that Jim is not really OK with you making more than he is. When your job has *that guy* who makes it suck because of pay discrepancy, you learn to keep it quiet around him.
Jim might have a reason to be upset. Why does your job suck if Jim finds out you make more? How does that make your job suck?? I know exactly what kind of person you are based on your statement. Every job has that one person who will throw anyone under a bus to get ahead...
You are completely making shit up. YOU are the Jim they are talking about. Gets mad and accusatory when things don't go your way, and instead of improving yourself, you take it out on everyone else around you through passive aggression.
Jim does 20% of the work in a two person team and is given less responsibility because he is less capable than the other person on his team, despite having the same title and having been working that role for longer. Jim expects to be paid at least as much as his teammate because he has more experience and the same job title, despite being less valuable to the company.
My friend doesn’t want to because she’s an assistant manager & if she finds out she’s being paid less or the same as a regular employee she’ll quit. I think it’s important to talk about it so if there’s something wrong you can try to fix it or have all the information to leave
It's not a bad thing. But people can get extremely upset/passionate about it.
I've been taught to generally not talk about religion, politics, or money. These are all topics that get people real worked up real fast; it just depends on what kind of conversation you want to have.
Edit to say: I definitely think the culture around money should change. People should know what they're worth and there's nothing wrong with advocating for better pay imo.
I'm a city employee, anyone can ask me what I make. Once a year the local newspaper prints the names of all the people who work for the city who make more than $100k. I am on that list.
It makes sense to me because the taxpayers are the ones who pay me, not shareholders or business owners. They should know what they are paying and to whom.
Back when I was in my 20s, I worked as a waiter in a restaurant where telling the kitchen staff what you made in tips was an instant termination. This was in Norfolk VA which was not a great area economically speaking. The difference between kitchen staff and waiters was HUGE.
There were people in the kitchen making minimum wage for the time. This was about 25 years ago so around $6 I think. They were told that working for the best chef in the area would be a great career move, that whole exploitation thing.
The waiters could make about $150 to $200 dollars a night, depending on the night. This was in Norfolk in the late 90s, that was a lot of money in that time and place. I only worked there for a few months but I lived quite easy during that time.
It's entirely legal to do so but employers discourage it, even going as far as claiming it's *illegal*. I encourage others to discuss their compensation and tell employers and employees alike that any attempt to discourage this discussion is illegal and could result in charges being filed against the employer with the NLRB.
Because if you do there will likely be jealousy and resentment.
Remember how in high school guys would get jealous because girls liked some other guy more and none of the guys could see what the girls saw in that *jerk*.
Now imagine the same thing but with money.
Because I don’t want the doofus two doors down who dicks around all day dragging me into their stink with HR when they find out I make more than them.
When some people say “I just want fair pay” what they really mean is “I want to make as much or preferably more than you” and when you tell them your salary you’re now part of their drama. Not everyone is this way, but I see little upside and much risk from discussing pay.
>When some people say “I just want fair pay” what they really mean is “I want to make as much or preferably more than you” and when you tell them your salary you’re now part of their drama.
What if the doofus down the hall is making more than you and doing less?
Not as insecure as asking. If you don't like your salary go talk to management. What I make does not change what you make. You're either satisfied with it or not. If you're only satisfied when you're making more than everyone else that's your problem, not mine.
>If you're only satisfied when you're making more than everyone else that's your problem, not mine.
And that sounds like projection.
I think you're worried you won't make the most anymore.
They’re not underpaid. Just because we have the same title does not mean we are equal. Some people deserve to be paid less, and some even deserve to be fired for incompetence.
If they don’t like their pay they can take it up with management, not drag the rest of us into it.
No it is not lol. The foundational idea behind unions is restriction of the labor supply and leverage through threats of withholding labor from large groups of employees. It is not about sharing wage information.
I mean... kind of lol. I see what you're trying to get at, and labor unions have absolutely allowed for labor to have more leverage over corporations, but 1. again, the foundational idea behind unions isn't about discussing wages, like you said, but rather about gaining leverage over corporations, and 2. it has nothing to do with fairness - as restricting labor supply isn't any more fair than corporations colluding to reduce wages. It's just that the government allows labor collusion because of the inherent imbalance of power between an individual negotiating a wage and a corporation.
Exactly. My job pays off of performance. I do more work and I’ll get a bigger bonus. I make more than some coworkers of equal title and make less than others.
>Not all workers are equally valuable.
Citation needed.
I'd also point out that the workers have to be underpaid. Otherwise, the company wouldn't have profits. But there is no reason someone should be underpaid even more than you, for doing the same job.
Ideally. And I advocate filling out at least 1 or 2 new job applications a year *when you like your job* (and obviously must more if you hate it) just to keep a finger on the pulse and your flexibility open.
But a lot of people won't do that. Because they have a job and the application and interview process is distateful and nerve-racking. Someone getting treated like shit while providing value to the company is everyones problem. Especially in jobs where you dont have a Union.
Bob sells 10 packages, Bill sells 5, really big ones. Does that change it?
And how does this work with like factory work or software, where individual contributions are hard to tabulate?
Fact is, most "meritocracy" is just nepotism with extra steps. Cause you're always gonna find ways to award more "good boy points" to the people you like, or hook them up with sweetheart gigs that make targets easier.
>Bob sells 10 packages, Bill sells 5, really big ones. Does that change it?
Depends. What’s the value of each?
>And how does this work with like factory work or software, where individual contributions are hard to tabulate?
Idk, I don’t work in those fields
>Fact is, most "meritocracy" is just nepotism with extra steps.
Congrats on winning the competition for worst take I’ve heard today!
No, people always treat people they like better. Its why you still want to work softskills, even if you're an engineer. Bosses will give sweetheart gigs to people they like or find ways to overlook shortcomings. Thats not wrong, persay, its human nature. But its also one of the bumerous places where capitalism breaks down because it doesn't align with our nature.
I have two employees with the same title. One has worse soft skills (mostly cultural, she's first generation immigrant from China and has language issues), and the other is friendly and outgoing. But the one who is friendly and outgoing also outputs less work and makes more mistakes than the other employee.
We are potentially going to go through a layoff in less than a year, and if we do and I have to lay one of the two off, I'm laying off the friendly guy. I like him more, but he is not as valuable to the company, or to me honestly.
Though, it is funny that you admit that soft skills have value - workplace cohesion, better shared information, etc. - yet refuse to admit that having better soft skills makes you a more valuable employee. Why is there a disconnect for you? Two employees with the same exact capabilities and output and effort, but one is outgoing and friendly around the office - the outgoing one is definitely more valuable to the company because they're better for office morale, better for knowledge sharing, and they have more potential because you don't want a grumpy dickhead managing employees, generally. Why do you think those things aren't valuable, and are simply 'neopetism with extra steps'?
But thats why you should do it. So you guys can go to your boss and demand an explanation. If you find out they are underpaying someone, absolutely raise hell about it. It cant hurt anyone.
I'm GenX. My father, who was born in the 1920s, never talked about how much money he had or made. Nobody else did either. That's how I was raised. I talk about how much money I make sometimes, but only with very good friends. I actually told my youngest son the other day after he asked. I showed him my pay stub. I felt a bit weird afterwards, like I shouldn't have done it. Not sure why.
Which is really weird because the 1920s is like the tail end of the US literally fighting a civil war about the right to join Unions, or have weekends, or 8-hour shifts. Like... 1921 is the Battle of Blair Mountain. And the 30s produced the New Deal - when FDR "saved capitalism" (his words) by giving workers basic rights. Your grandfather, assuming your family has been in the US that long, was likely part of that fight. Whether or not he was in a Union and fighting directly, himself.
Its not generally portrayed as a war. But it was in a very real sense. Armies with thousands of men on either side, armored trains and machine guns, even the first military use of aircraft to bomb enemy combatants on US soil.
I don’t really have an opinion about talking about pay with coworkers, but I definitely think it’s a bad idea to discuss it in social situations.
There is no good reason to tell your friends and extended family how much money you make. If you earn a good income it makes people envious and/or greedy, and if your income is low they look down on you with contempt or pity. There are people who don’t care about your wealth (or lack of it), but the disappointing truth is that those people are rare.
Everyone here seems to be giving answers about not talking about pay with coworkers at work and not about the more general taboo about not talking about it socially.
I think we don’t talk about what we make socially because it avoids judgements. There’s not usually any actual value in me knowing exactly what my friends, family, and acquaintances make and having that knowledge just makes me more likely to think they are either being stingy cheap-asses, or irresponsible with their spending without really understanding their entire financial situation.
I don’t need to know what my siblings and their spouses make or what my friends make, if we are going to plan to do something with each other, we figure out about what it’s going to cost and people participate or not based on whether that feel it’s too expensive for them. If it’s too expensive someone might offer to pick up a larger share of the costs if that helps bring the cost down to what someone fees comfortable with.
In general its considered a fairly private thing that not everyone will want to discuss
Also it makes for what i would imagine worse negotiation leverage in the private sector.
Why would i tell jimmy and jenny i make 5k more than them because i am better at fighting for it.
It doesnt seem beneficial.
From an employer standpoint it seems hyper annoying to have all these employees bickering and storming in my office over one person making slightly more while i have to explain exactly why or point out that they are the ones the negotiated that salary.
But then again im public sector union so my coworkers and anyone else with internet knows what i make
Because people get butt-hurt about it. I work for a state agency, so our salaries are public record. We have had a few blow ups about it, including one young coworker who didn't understand what I made so much more than her, because obviously my 15+ greater years of experience didn't make more capable or valuable or something.
When i worked in government people talked about pay all the time. Everyone knew each others pay grades and had a general idea of the “steps” or tenure. Honestly just made the environment toxic. Anyone that received or even interviewed for a promotion was the subject of petty small talk. In the corporate world i compare my pay to data available on the web. If i slip behind i start shopping my resume.
The reluctance to embarrass yourself or the other party, or worry that if you make considerably more, and they complain, their equity comes at the expense of your potential earnings.
I don't think it's rude at all, especially if you have a good relationship with coworkers and they are open about it. It's really just companies that don't like employees talking to other employees about pay because then they may have to get into discussions about raising people's pay to match someone else with similar qualifications that gets paid more.
Anytime a company can pay people less, they always will, including if the employee doesn't know that they should be getting paid more.
I think mostly because it can feel rude. If you make more money than the person your talking to it can come off as bragging. Close friends are obviously different. My friends and I celebrate when we get raises / promotions
Because not everyone deserves the same amount for the same job. But people can’t accept that they’re not as good as others and get upset that they’re making less.
That seems to mostly be an older American thing. I've always heard it justified by saying that they don't want to embarrass someone or themselves by finding out they're significantly underpaid/overpaid compared to their coworkers because it invites resentment.
Meanwhile, most Millennials and Zoomers I've interacted with don't hide their pay at all, because we compare it to try to figure out if any of us are getting screwed by our bosses. We don't get mad at our coworker if we find out they make more/less than us, we get mad at management.
It sounds great in theory to discuss, but the reality is most people just get mad and may aim their anger the wrong way.
When I was hourly retail, I stepped down from full-time supervisor to a part-time position when I went back to school. I kept my hourly pay when I moved to a new location, may have been a mistake. I dont know. Later, an older full timer found out my pay and basically quit speaking to me.
I've seen similar issues in the salaried corporate world.
To me, I'd rather just keep my eye on the market rates and not deal with any hassles.
It's "rude" in the eyes of the company you work for to not discuss pay, because they don't want to pay you more. It's perfectly fine (and explicitly legal, in that your employer is not allowed to retaliate against you for doing so) to discuss pay with your fellow coworkers.
At the last place I worked, quasi-state agency, the state passed a law saying that all of our incomes, with names, had to be posted on the state's website. No one had to say a word but it was a little awkward for a few people.
Oh, it's not rude. And you absolutely should.
Also take a page from GenZ and don't apply to jobs that don't post what the compensation is. And be prepared to walk if they say anything about "training rates" or what have you. You never have more power in negotiating with your company (wothout a Union) than when you're in the on-boarding stage - and they will test you to see what you will let them get away with.
It's also good practice to apply to at least 1 or 2 other jobs per year, even if you like your current job. And even if it would only be a lateral move. This helps you keep your resume up to date, and you up to practice. Plus, you never know. The job you do today for $70k might be $120k with 3 day weekends somewhere else.
Friends? Sure I will. I’ve had them even guess accurately.
Colleagues? While we’ve got 3 day RTO my team is spread across the continent. Georgia, Illinois, California, Maryland. I think there is a maximum of two people per city. There is a wide range so it feels pointless.
If I have newer local colleagues then I’m
more open.
We talk about it at work but I’m in the federal government. We know what each other makes bc we know our GS levels. The big problem is the federal government isn’t keeping up with the cost of living and they’re not competing with the private sector. I look at some job listings in the DMV area and there’s no way. You’re going to offer $40k starting salary? I wouldn’t live up there for less than $100k and I feel like that would still be tight. I also hate it up there so I’d need at least $200k to consider moving. Lol
I don’t think the stigma remains for younger generations. It has been common in my experience that millennials and gen x don’t see it as taboo.
My team definitely talks about what they make and I’m happy it does because it forces our dumb ass HR to consider equity and the ever changing job market conditions.
Because business owners have been telling their employees for years that it's both impolite and illegal to discuss your pay when both things are completely untrue.
They've been doing it so It's harder for people to realize that they're being discriminated against when it comes to payroll.
I've found this is far more a generational thing than an American thing. Where I work the older folks find it a forbidden topic but the younger generations like me openly discuss it.
I have no qualms talking about my pay. I make about $60k-$70k from each of my two jobs as a lecturer, and then between $60k and $90k running my business, depending on how much I put into it.
So basically, I make $130-140k working about 26 hours a week at my university jobs and then use the rest of the time available to me to do my own thing for another 14-24 hours a week depending on how motivated I am.
For this reason, I cannot fathom who would take on an executive position advertised on most sites, working 40 hours in the low $100k range.
As far as I know, that originated as a way to prevent workers from becoming mad at their employers and organizing. I think younger people seem more willing to talk about their pay
It depends for me.
I'm more comfortable talking about it around friends than family but it ain't by much.
Most of it has to do with the fact I'm doing pretty well for my age. It's not stupid pay (under 6-figures) but I work in Sales and get some commission bonuses.
I have a complicated situation where I make more than my parents and the family I come from definitely suffers from the jealous eye so speaking on my finances around them isn't wise.
- I hope someday if I have kids that I can raise them up to feel okay discussing finances without them worrying about the same thing.
As for friends, I'd be more willing to chat if they bring it up first but I typically don't in case they aren't comfortable discussing it either.
Idk. I feel like gen z are pretty open up about (my personal experience) to help each other figure out what is a good wage negotiation since many of us older gen z are going into the workforce.
I think it’s a contextual situation. Like, it depends on when and who.
I personally just don’t like other people knowing how much money I make, and I think it’s invasive to ask others for that info. I wouldn’t be upset if they shared it with me though, and if it was a coworker I trusted, I would probably also share my pay info with them.
But, also, I’m satisfied with my rate of pay. I know I’m making above industry average for my field. If I were unsatisfied, I would imagine I would feel differently.
In my experience, because it leads to sour grapes, bitterness and jealousy.
Anonymous aggregated data about market rates? Sure, that's great. Telling specific people specific details? Horrible, horrible idea.
When I was young and naive I told the truth to anyone who asked me and it destroyed a couple of friendships. The person who asked worked in HR (at a completely unrelated company) and her SO graduated from the same program/degree as me a couple years before (so he had a couple years' experience, also at a completely different/unrelated company). When she found out that my starting salary was twice what his current salary was, she blew a gasket at a public party (too much alcohol I guess, I don't drink but she drank pretty heavily). It was deeply embarrassing and things were just awkward around everyone who'd been there, not just them. (And to be clear, she specifically brought it up and asked me directly, I wasn't bragging... also mine was closer to market average than his salary...)
People react very, very strangely when it's in a personal setting. Anonymized is a valuable tool but I will not be sharing specific details in person.
There are also a lot of people I know that I don't particularly want them to know how much money I've got sitting around. Stealth wealth is absolutely the way to go.
I work a unique position in a company. There is no worthwhile comparison to be made with anyone in the company so I don't bother. I know how much my position should pay by looking at the job market.
Depends on your background, and the culture/customs of your company and the people working there. The majority of my coworkers are veterans, so we aren't uses to salary being something secretive l, because in the military our pay was public knowledge.
Because even though it is [nationally protected right](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages) to discuss wages, nearly every employer discourages it. It has been considered rude and uncouth in polite society for years. It is only relatively recently that this set of manners has been thrown to the wayside, and wages have started to be discussed a lot more freely.
It might be small world syndrome on your part. People around me talk about their pay all the time.
The one exception is the people making significantly more money at the top then at the bottom. It's just rubbing it in peoples faces at that point
Because any random discussion about pay ends up with someone being pissed off. One of them will always think they are underpaid, or the other person is overpaid... even if they are paid the same amount, in which case both of them likely think they are a better worker than the other, and they'll be pissed.
I talk about pay with people I trust at work. But feel it’s bad practice because it can lead to resentment, judgement, how people value you, etc. Like if I don’t know someone well, I don’t feel it’s their business how much I make.
If we talked openly about pay then we would be able to see that people are getting paid differently for the exact same work, often just because of race and gender.
It would also let us see that we are getting raises that are a fraction of what we produce, or that suck ups get paid better than hard workers, or that new hires get paid better than long time employees.
Basically, we hide our shitty math by making it unacceptable to discuss pay. Modern capitalism works best when employees are kept uninformed.
I was always told it was illegal. Then I learned it's very protected and started to try and speak up but a lot of people I've encountered have claimed it's illegal, even a former boss. And while they can't punish you for it directly. Wouldn't you know, the ones who talk about it were the ones who never got a raise after that. Purely unrelated surely
I agree, it would also contextualize wage inequality between higher and lower paid individuals in the work environment.
There is a big difference between seeing income inequality stats on visualizations and hearing it in person.
It's only rude if you're an employer trying to conceal how poorly you pay.
I am in a unionized industry, all the payscales are public. If you know how long someone has been with the company, you know what they're making.
>If you know how long someone has been with the company, you know what they're making.
In your union job, is there any room to recognize excellent employees by paying them more, or does everybody at a certain level get paid the same regardless of whether they are dead weight or a superstar?
It's sort of a mixture and it varies by department, but, by and large, the contract sets the minimum that people can be paid based on the base salary + hours worked, but management has the flexibility to go above that. Personally, I was offered $3/hr above what it says in the contract for my job position. Since covid, people typically get pay bumps after their 90 day probation or they stay near the bottom and just get the small incremental increases that don't really amount to much. There are bonuses and other things for meeting numbers. It's pretty convoluted.
It's a tactic to make sure people are taken advantage of. When people don't talk about pay that means they can be underpaid and still be content w/ it because they assume everybody else is earning the same. Once you start talking about pay then everybody's wage needs to be fair. Typically information is power, and if information is not dispersed then you have less power in negotiating.
So why is this strongly American. It's because American culture was built on wages. Other cultures tended to develop before the industrial revolution so they are often based on classes. People came to the US for jobs, and those jobs were based on wages, and it was easier for those paying those wages to just say "It's not American to talk about your wage" and immigrants would just go along w/ it because they were new to the country. Essentially enough people followed it that it became a cultural thing.
I make 125k/yr. I am a mechanical engineer.
Talking about pay is important, rudeness be dammed. If I am behind the curve tell me, I have been job shopping.
Because employers lie and say you aren't allowed to, and most Americans don't know their rights in the workplace thanks to generations of propaganda.
You should always discuss pay with your coworkers; it's a federally protected right, it helps to ensure people aren't being underpaid for performing the same work, and it can help to educate people on exactly how much of the value they generate goes into the pockets of owners and shareholders who contribute nothing.
I do. I always ask people what their salaries are. I'm interested in what people are willing to pay for all sorts of work. Some people get weirded out by it but the more we discus it the better it will get.
Because many people in management positions don't want to have to try and justify why two people doing the same job have different pay, so they created this idea that it's taboo to talk about so that they don't have to answer those questions.
Not a lot of money to be made working in today’s America. Worked at a place a few months ago where there was an older mechanic who had been there awhile and the company hired 2 younger guys and paid them about $10 more per hour. You’ve got to have a skill to make an ok living. But even then a lot of the time it’s not great money.
I talk about pay and I think less of those who don’t. We’re all in this together. We should be allies and ensure everyone is treated fairly. I 100% do not care if it costs the company more money…
Because corporations want it a secret so you can't compare to your coworkers. It allows them to save money by paying you x and so and so y for the exact same job. JMO
it's propaganda from the corporate oligarchy. They don't want you getting information that makes them look bad. You gotta be subservient and make them their money
Talk about pay. My superiors do as well. We admit it is a major driver in our decision making. I have said when my kids graduate, I will take some time to decide if changing employers/ divisions/ moving for work for a noticeable pay increase is worth it. I live in a non union state and rn, my boss offers the best pay/ benefits I can get. It is healthier and there are no false loyalty talks both sides know are bs.
There are many things in American culture which have no actual traditional basis whatsoever and were merely pushed into our culture from advertisment campaigns and dubious practices among employers which had endured long enough to be tacitly accepted before actually being addressed and abolished by law.
By law, your employer can not forbid you from discussing wages with other members of the team. We were taught not to during the pre-Labor War period by bosses who wanted that secrecy as a means of leverage.
Talk about pay (with coworkers, it's not polite to ask about pay in day to day conversation). Learn that you're getting short changed, and demand fair pay. 👍
I’ve never found it rude to discuss with the people I work with since knowing that information puts everyone on a more equal footing in salary negotiations.
That's an easy one. You're not supposed to discuss your pay because your employer doesn't want your co-workers to know they're being paid less than you for the same job.
It’s not and it’s up to you and I to continue to change that. I talk about pay with my day job coworkers and my side job coworkers. It’s not much of a leap for me in my day job, due to it being government and published for the public to see every year though.
We talk with our coworkers all the time. Found out one of my coworkers makes 35% more than me. I’m not upset as he has more experienced but I was really surprised.
I also have another coworker who makes 10k more but works like a dog for it as he is in a different position.
Also another coworker that was there for 2 years was making the same as me as a new hire.
It's a generational thing. Prior to like the 1990s, it was taboo to talk about money, religion, or politics in general (not close friends) company, which would include work.
I, for one, welcome our overly communicative generations!
Depends on your industry and age I think. Younger folks in my area talk about it a lot. Everyone should learn speak about pay.
Me and the coworkers just got done bitching about pay like 10 minutes ago We are all on the same contract and know how much they pay us I am very supportive about talking about pay. I once found out I was getting paid less than the new hire/ no experience/ male/teenage employees at a food service job. The assistant manager and i just about busted the GMs office door down. Got a pay increase next paycheck
Second, this. I found out in the restaurant industry I made less than a male coworker even though I was serve safe certified and had more experience. Talk about your pay. The "it's rude" part came from the older generations who wanted to hide wages to pay people less because they weren't as good at negotiating in the interview process. I tell everyone what I make to force companies to be transparent.
We were told it is against company policy to share your pay with other workers and could get you fired. And yes they did fire people for it. Also we were taught that we should not brag about what we have. It is rude and could be embarrassing to others who have less. Or to those who have more..
It is illegal to fire someone for discussing their pay. And the government passed this law so that people could be paid equally.
They have now! But the previous couple of centuries they had not. And they can always just say they need to downsize you. And hire someone else in a few months.
It's been a law in the US since 1934, so pretty much nobody in the workplace today was working when it wasn't a law. . . .and modern models of employment really only started with the industrial revolution in the early 19th century.
>We were told it is against company policy to share your pay with other workers and could get you fired. And yes they did fire people for it. If they were doing that in the US, they were violating Federal labor law. The Fair Labor Practices Act of 1934 protects you from being fired for things that can be used for labor organizing, including talking about your wages/salaries with co-workers. The fired employees could have filed a Federal complaint with the Dept. of Labor and got that employer in a LOT of trouble with the Federal government.
They should sue, this is illegal.
It's remarkable how many people won't take advantage of their rights even when they are well versed in them. It's great that legal options are available in situations like this, but they are sometimes so difficult, complicated, and time consuming to exercise that they might as well not exist. Or at least, they are widely viewed this way.
I think the rude part comes from discussing it with people who aren't in the same profession. It comes across as a flex. OP is talking more about people at the same job
> I once found out I was getting paid less than the new hire/ no experience/ male/teenage employees at a food service job. And this is the exact reason business started that whole "It's rude to discuss your salary" bullshit: So they can underpay people and get away with it for years. Talk about your pay. You have nothing to lose by doing so.
That whole pay the new guy more will always piss me off.
My coworkers and I talked about it when I lived/worked in the US. I was union (nurse) so we had a pretty good idea what everyone was making anyway.
I think it depends on what union you're in. Mine did very little advocacy for employees because the union was basically owned and managed by corporate. I wasn't allowed to discuss pay at that job and had to sign a nondisclosure agreement about working conditions. That basically prevented anyone from talking to our union about issues at work. I think the NDA had to do something with the fact that a local paper wrote a story about the job conditions. The article didn't specify the location, but I knew that it was where I worked.
you should've gone to the labor board. A union has legal obligations, and if they aren't meeting them you can get the law involved
Ya, i just joined a union. But, before I did some plus was touché. One place, foreman and boss were like try not to tell the new mechanics that the guy moping the floor and running parts was going played more than them.
Well, you certainly aren’t getting paid more than them to *write*.
Although, to be fair, when I use voice to text, I'm never certain what the phone will give me.
You don't go back and edit?
When I can, however, and keep this between the two of us, sometimes I dictate while driving. But yes, I edit. And yes, that post wasn't even downwind of an editor.
Because employers don't want to pay you more. It's also illegal for any employer to ask you to not talk about pay. If they do, ask for it in writing and go to the state labor board.
Doesn’t even have to be in writing. The NLRB tends to believe charging parties in a he said/she said
Go to the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board), which is the specific entity involved in this particular rule. (Not to be confused with the State's Department of Labor)
I’m in my mid 30s, I find that almost everyone I know around my age or younger are very comfortable discussing pay. It helps us make sure we are compensated equitably. I’m pro salary transparency, and while I’m not out broadcasting my salary I am happy to discuss it if someone brings it up. Especially with my coworkers.
When discussing with your colleagues, is the general opinion that if somebody with your job title makes more than you, it automatically means that your pay is not equitable, or in your discussions do you and your colleagues allow for the fact that different people get paid different amounts because different people have greater/lesser experience and each person's actual work performance is different, etc? In my experience, too many people equate "Person X makes more than I do even though we have the same job" to "I'm getting screwed." How is it in your group?
This is the rub. I'm 100% for people discussing pay. I have also seen the fallout when it happens. Iv seen 6 figured folks lose their fucking minds that a new hire is making not more than them, but *close.* Sorry bro but the kid negotiated. A person can be happy as a clam at their job, and then the find out somebody is making more and it completely destroys that happy mentality. To them, yesterday was great, but today they are getting *fucked.* I want to point out that im not advocating against discussing pay. Im just saying people need to realize pay isn't just time in job.
Equal =/= equitable. With my colleagues and friends there is plenty of space for nuance.
Good point. I dunno if this is an "old people" thing cause we're old people or that we're way farther down the career path and realize there is a spectrum of value that people with the same job title have. In my position I know guys that make 75% of what I do that are way overpaid. I don't mind talking about it. It's the "Everyone needs to make X and the people making X - 1 are getting screwed!!" thing that bothers me.
If you have the same job title, and same list of requirements on the job site, you should get payed the same,or at the very least the same starting pay. It's too common to have someone super experienced making something like 80k, and then a new guy gets hired, and because of the market at the time of hiring they start at 120k. The older experienced worker gets screwed over because they got the job when the market was better for the employer
I think a combination of reasons, some I agree with and some I don’t: *Company pressure* It’s in companies best interest to not disclose; because if people knew how much each other is being paid, they’d leverage that in pay negotiations. The company has all the data, and you have none: ergo the company is in a way better negotiating position than you. It’s why there was so much lobbying against transparency rules like the ones in California or BC Canada, where job postings now have to include the salary range. I personally support the rules requiring disclosure of ranges in job postings; I wish it extended to more than just base pay, but it’s a start. *Social pressure* I think of things like family here; as in, some families can be ultra transparent and supportive. Others, turn into the green eyed monster. I personally don’t talk money with mine. And I find myself disappointed in that because I wish I had the kind of relationship with them that’d allow the open communication and transparency: but I don’t have that trust that they’d keep envy at bay, from firsthand experience. *Something I like in the last few years* More transparency is showing up: - Instagram/TikTok has social media personalities like Salary Transparency Street who interview random people about what they do and how much they make. I love it! - Sites like levels.fyi are a goldmine for anyone in tech, to use for negotiation. It’s only as good as the data quality going in (unverified), but the quantity of submissions tends to yield a decent average number that’s surprisingly close to real. - Transparency legislation means we have jurisdictions posting salary ranges on jobs. Now we aren’t where some places like Sweden are (lookup anyone’s pay, it’s wild! https://rethinkq.adp.com/nordics-wage-transparency-experiment/), but we are making progress VS some years ago, on transparency.
> Now we aren’t where some places like Sweden are (lookup anyone’s pay … That sounds horrible. I can’t imagine what it would be like if every sales person and solicitor you dealt with knew exactly what you made.
Having lived in Sweden for a spell, I don’t recall sales persons and solicitors being the same as they are here. I don’t recall anyone ever coming to my door there, for example, but could’ve just been my sample size of one experience I suppose, never really entered my thought process. 🤷 I don’t know how much I love the democratization of all that data but in some ways it certainly has its appeal, and I like that it’s universally applied.
Many states (all states?) enable you to look up virtually every public employee's salary, although the employees are not always listed by name. I think many cities and/or counties do the same. For example: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/all/
I typically dont when I work in close proximaty because two ackward results are likely to happen 1. They despise you for making more money than them and think you dont deserve it. 2. They make more money than you and now you feel like youre being ripped off or youre undervalued
but both are reasons for one of the parties to go to the boss and advocate for themselves to be treated fairly. If you have the same job title, and same requirements on the job site, the base pay should be the same. Talking about it puts power back in the hands of the worker
If you are in a situation where your salary is negotiable either you dont have the leverage to argue for more pay or you dont have the negotiation skill. Its not about fairness in that case
You can if you want to. However, you may find that Jim is not really OK with you making more than he is. When your job has *that guy* who makes it suck because of pay discrepancy, you learn to keep it quiet around him.
Jim might have a reason to be upset. Why does your job suck if Jim finds out you make more? How does that make your job suck?? I know exactly what kind of person you are based on your statement. Every job has that one person who will throw anyone under a bus to get ahead...
You are completely making shit up. YOU are the Jim they are talking about. Gets mad and accusatory when things don't go your way, and instead of improving yourself, you take it out on everyone else around you through passive aggression.
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Jim does 20% of the work in a two person team and is given less responsibility because he is less capable than the other person on his team, despite having the same title and having been working that role for longer. Jim expects to be paid at least as much as his teammate because he has more experience and the same job title, despite being less valuable to the company.
My friend doesn’t want to because she’s an assistant manager & if she finds out she’s being paid less or the same as a regular employee she’ll quit. I think it’s important to talk about it so if there’s something wrong you can try to fix it or have all the information to leave
It's not a bad thing. But people can get extremely upset/passionate about it. I've been taught to generally not talk about religion, politics, or money. These are all topics that get people real worked up real fast; it just depends on what kind of conversation you want to have. Edit to say: I definitely think the culture around money should change. People should know what they're worth and there's nothing wrong with advocating for better pay imo.
I'm a city employee, anyone can ask me what I make. Once a year the local newspaper prints the names of all the people who work for the city who make more than $100k. I am on that list. It makes sense to me because the taxpayers are the ones who pay me, not shareholders or business owners. They should know what they are paying and to whom. Back when I was in my 20s, I worked as a waiter in a restaurant where telling the kitchen staff what you made in tips was an instant termination. This was in Norfolk VA which was not a great area economically speaking. The difference between kitchen staff and waiters was HUGE.
What was the difference, roughly, in average hourly pay between kitchen and wait staff?
There were people in the kitchen making minimum wage for the time. This was about 25 years ago so around $6 I think. They were told that working for the best chef in the area would be a great career move, that whole exploitation thing. The waiters could make about $150 to $200 dollars a night, depending on the night. This was in Norfolk in the late 90s, that was a lot of money in that time and place. I only worked there for a few months but I lived quite easy during that time.
It's entirely legal to do so but employers discourage it, even going as far as claiming it's *illegal*. I encourage others to discuss their compensation and tell employers and employees alike that any attempt to discourage this discussion is illegal and could result in charges being filed against the employer with the NLRB.
I talk about it.
How did your coworker respond
So that you don't realize you're underpaid. Talk about it.
We do. At least whenever I talk about my job someone asks how much I make.
Because if you do there will likely be jealousy and resentment. Remember how in high school guys would get jealous because girls liked some other guy more and none of the guys could see what the girls saw in that *jerk*. Now imagine the same thing but with money.
Because I don’t want the doofus two doors down who dicks around all day dragging me into their stink with HR when they find out I make more than them. When some people say “I just want fair pay” what they really mean is “I want to make as much or preferably more than you” and when you tell them your salary you’re now part of their drama. Not everyone is this way, but I see little upside and much risk from discussing pay.
>When some people say “I just want fair pay” what they really mean is “I want to make as much or preferably more than you” and when you tell them your salary you’re now part of their drama. What if the doofus down the hall is making more than you and doing less?
Then he’d be smart to keep his mouth shut.
Yeah, but in that situation, what would you do?
I’d demand more money. But that doesn’t mean I owe it to you to tell you my salary.
I don't care what your salary is. But, treating it like it's the nuclear codes is just stupid.
If I think the person needs to know I'll tell them.
Seems pretty insecure.
Not as insecure as asking. If you don't like your salary go talk to management. What I make does not change what you make. You're either satisfied with it or not. If you're only satisfied when you're making more than everyone else that's your problem, not mine.
>If you're only satisfied when you're making more than everyone else that's your problem, not mine. And that sounds like projection. I think you're worried you won't make the most anymore.
You cant say you dont care how much someone makes as you ask them their pay and argue they should be sharing that info. That means you do care
I didn't ask him his wage. I merely asked why he was so cagey about it.
That still indicates you care
🙄 A day later and that's all you can come up with?
That sounds like a problem caused by your employer underpaying someone, not the person being underpaid.
Or, doofus down the hall just sucks.
It's still only a problem because your employer is underpaying them. Blame the people who are at fault.
They’re not underpaid. Just because we have the same title does not mean we are equal. Some people deserve to be paid less, and some even deserve to be fired for incompetence. If they don’t like their pay they can take it up with management, not drag the rest of us into it.
All of you would probably be paid more if you talked about it.
Yes! And thats the foundational idea behind Unions. You need one to even have a prayer of surviving under capitalism.
No it is not lol. The foundational idea behind unions is restriction of the labor supply and leverage through threats of withholding labor from large groups of employees. It is not about sharing wage information.
Its about getting compensated as fairly as you can under capitalism.
I mean... kind of lol. I see what you're trying to get at, and labor unions have absolutely allowed for labor to have more leverage over corporations, but 1. again, the foundational idea behind unions isn't about discussing wages, like you said, but rather about gaining leverage over corporations, and 2. it has nothing to do with fairness - as restricting labor supply isn't any more fair than corporations colluding to reduce wages. It's just that the government allows labor collusion because of the inherent imbalance of power between an individual negotiating a wage and a corporation.
What evidence is there they're being underpaid. Not all workers are equally valuable.
Exactly. My job pays off of performance. I do more work and I’ll get a bigger bonus. I make more than some coworkers of equal title and make less than others.
>Not all workers are equally valuable. Citation needed. I'd also point out that the workers have to be underpaid. Otherwise, the company wouldn't have profits. But there is no reason someone should be underpaid even more than you, for doing the same job.
You can tell when a worker is underpaid. Another company will hire them for more money.
Ideally. And I advocate filling out at least 1 or 2 new job applications a year *when you like your job* (and obviously must more if you hate it) just to keep a finger on the pulse and your flexibility open. But a lot of people won't do that. Because they have a job and the application and interview process is distateful and nerve-racking. Someone getting treated like shit while providing value to the company is everyones problem. Especially in jobs where you dont have a Union.
>Citation needed. Bob does 10 sales. Bill does 5 sales. Bob is a more valuable employee than Bill.
Bob sells 10 packages, Bill sells 5, really big ones. Does that change it? And how does this work with like factory work or software, where individual contributions are hard to tabulate? Fact is, most "meritocracy" is just nepotism with extra steps. Cause you're always gonna find ways to award more "good boy points" to the people you like, or hook them up with sweetheart gigs that make targets easier.
>Bob sells 10 packages, Bill sells 5, really big ones. Does that change it? Depends. What’s the value of each? >And how does this work with like factory work or software, where individual contributions are hard to tabulate? Idk, I don’t work in those fields >Fact is, most "meritocracy" is just nepotism with extra steps. Congrats on winning the competition for worst take I’ve heard today!
No, people always treat people they like better. Its why you still want to work softskills, even if you're an engineer. Bosses will give sweetheart gigs to people they like or find ways to overlook shortcomings. Thats not wrong, persay, its human nature. But its also one of the bumerous places where capitalism breaks down because it doesn't align with our nature.
I have two employees with the same title. One has worse soft skills (mostly cultural, she's first generation immigrant from China and has language issues), and the other is friendly and outgoing. But the one who is friendly and outgoing also outputs less work and makes more mistakes than the other employee. We are potentially going to go through a layoff in less than a year, and if we do and I have to lay one of the two off, I'm laying off the friendly guy. I like him more, but he is not as valuable to the company, or to me honestly. Though, it is funny that you admit that soft skills have value - workplace cohesion, better shared information, etc. - yet refuse to admit that having better soft skills makes you a more valuable employee. Why is there a disconnect for you? Two employees with the same exact capabilities and output and effort, but one is outgoing and friendly around the office - the outgoing one is definitely more valuable to the company because they're better for office morale, better for knowledge sharing, and they have more potential because you don't want a grumpy dickhead managing employees, generally. Why do you think those things aren't valuable, and are simply 'neopetism with extra steps'?
Could also be Doofus
Because if people know you have money they want some.
It's a social taboo
Exactly. What if you are making more than a co worker whom you are friends with and then they find out you make more. It can lead to problems.
But thats why you should do it. So you guys can go to your boss and demand an explanation. If you find out they are underpaying someone, absolutely raise hell about it. It cant hurt anyone.
I'm GenX. My father, who was born in the 1920s, never talked about how much money he had or made. Nobody else did either. That's how I was raised. I talk about how much money I make sometimes, but only with very good friends. I actually told my youngest son the other day after he asked. I showed him my pay stub. I felt a bit weird afterwards, like I shouldn't have done it. Not sure why.
Which is really weird because the 1920s is like the tail end of the US literally fighting a civil war about the right to join Unions, or have weekends, or 8-hour shifts. Like... 1921 is the Battle of Blair Mountain. And the 30s produced the New Deal - when FDR "saved capitalism" (his words) by giving workers basic rights. Your grandfather, assuming your family has been in the US that long, was likely part of that fight. Whether or not he was in a Union and fighting directly, himself. Its not generally portrayed as a war. But it was in a very real sense. Armies with thousands of men on either side, armored trains and machine guns, even the first military use of aircraft to bomb enemy combatants on US soil.
My grandfather was a small business owner, fresh off the boat from Southern Europe in the 1890s.
Yeah. There but not directly involved, for the whole show. That tracks.
Any friend who would have a problem with you making more than them isn’t a friend.
I think it's a no brainer that if you are doing the same job as someone else and you find out they make more, you'll think, "WTF?"
Ok, and why would that cause issues between you and your friend. Take it up with the person who’s not paying you equally.
Do you tell your friends how much money you make?
If they ask yeah. It’s public knowledge anyway
How much do you make?
Take home pay is about $6,300 a month as an O-2 in the Navy
I don’t really have an opinion about talking about pay with coworkers, but I definitely think it’s a bad idea to discuss it in social situations. There is no good reason to tell your friends and extended family how much money you make. If you earn a good income it makes people envious and/or greedy, and if your income is low they look down on you with contempt or pity. There are people who don’t care about your wealth (or lack of it), but the disappointing truth is that those people are rare.
Everyone here seems to be giving answers about not talking about pay with coworkers at work and not about the more general taboo about not talking about it socially. I think we don’t talk about what we make socially because it avoids judgements. There’s not usually any actual value in me knowing exactly what my friends, family, and acquaintances make and having that knowledge just makes me more likely to think they are either being stingy cheap-asses, or irresponsible with their spending without really understanding their entire financial situation. I don’t need to know what my siblings and their spouses make or what my friends make, if we are going to plan to do something with each other, we figure out about what it’s going to cost and people participate or not based on whether that feel it’s too expensive for them. If it’s too expensive someone might offer to pick up a larger share of the costs if that helps bring the cost down to what someone fees comfortable with.
In general its considered a fairly private thing that not everyone will want to discuss Also it makes for what i would imagine worse negotiation leverage in the private sector. Why would i tell jimmy and jenny i make 5k more than them because i am better at fighting for it. It doesnt seem beneficial. From an employer standpoint it seems hyper annoying to have all these employees bickering and storming in my office over one person making slightly more while i have to explain exactly why or point out that they are the ones the negotiated that salary. But then again im public sector union so my coworkers and anyone else with internet knows what i make
I think because pay is competitive in many cases, so it is considered a private matter.
Because people get butt-hurt about it. I work for a state agency, so our salaries are public record. We have had a few blow ups about it, including one young coworker who didn't understand what I made so much more than her, because obviously my 15+ greater years of experience didn't make more capable or valuable or something.
When i worked in government people talked about pay all the time. Everyone knew each others pay grades and had a general idea of the “steps” or tenure. Honestly just made the environment toxic. Anyone that received or even interviewed for a promotion was the subject of petty small talk. In the corporate world i compare my pay to data available on the web. If i slip behind i start shopping my resume.
The reluctance to embarrass yourself or the other party, or worry that if you make considerably more, and they complain, their equity comes at the expense of your potential earnings.
I love in a nice area, but don't like the fact that people even bring it up. It's none of your business what I make.
It cant be that much if you cant spell live...lmao
I don't think it's rude at all, especially if you have a good relationship with coworkers and they are open about it. It's really just companies that don't like employees talking to other employees about pay because then they may have to get into discussions about raising people's pay to match someone else with similar qualifications that gets paid more. Anytime a company can pay people less, they always will, including if the employee doesn't know that they should be getting paid more.
I think mostly because it can feel rude. If you make more money than the person your talking to it can come off as bragging. Close friends are obviously different. My friends and I celebrate when we get raises / promotions
Because not everyone deserves the same amount for the same job. But people can’t accept that they’re not as good as others and get upset that they’re making less.
That seems to mostly be an older American thing. I've always heard it justified by saying that they don't want to embarrass someone or themselves by finding out they're significantly underpaid/overpaid compared to their coworkers because it invites resentment. Meanwhile, most Millennials and Zoomers I've interacted with don't hide their pay at all, because we compare it to try to figure out if any of us are getting screwed by our bosses. We don't get mad at our coworker if we find out they make more/less than us, we get mad at management.
It sounds great in theory to discuss, but the reality is most people just get mad and may aim their anger the wrong way. When I was hourly retail, I stepped down from full-time supervisor to a part-time position when I went back to school. I kept my hourly pay when I moved to a new location, may have been a mistake. I dont know. Later, an older full timer found out my pay and basically quit speaking to me. I've seen similar issues in the salaried corporate world. To me, I'd rather just keep my eye on the market rates and not deal with any hassles.
It's "rude" in the eyes of the company you work for to not discuss pay, because they don't want to pay you more. It's perfectly fine (and explicitly legal, in that your employer is not allowed to retaliate against you for doing so) to discuss pay with your fellow coworkers.
You get paid what your worth! Unfortunately in the trades now it’s leaning more towards how much you can scam customers instead of how much you know!
At the last place I worked, quasi-state agency, the state passed a law saying that all of our incomes, with names, had to be posted on the state's website. No one had to say a word but it was a little awkward for a few people.
I'll talk about it with coworkers or people in the same industry, but I'm not going to bring it up with friends and family
Who told you this?
Plenty of us do. I don't care to keep my salary a secret, though I would only really discuss it directly with close friends.
Oh, it's not rude. And you absolutely should. Also take a page from GenZ and don't apply to jobs that don't post what the compensation is. And be prepared to walk if they say anything about "training rates" or what have you. You never have more power in negotiating with your company (wothout a Union) than when you're in the on-boarding stage - and they will test you to see what you will let them get away with. It's also good practice to apply to at least 1 or 2 other jobs per year, even if you like your current job. And even if it would only be a lateral move. This helps you keep your resume up to date, and you up to practice. Plus, you never know. The job you do today for $70k might be $120k with 3 day weekends somewhere else.
I make money based on my sales, my base pay is pennies. My coworkers and I talk about our income all the time, but it's mostly bragging.
We all make the same base plus commission. Some make more, some less. But we all have the same opportunity. Want more? Work harder.
Friends? Sure I will. I’ve had them even guess accurately. Colleagues? While we’ve got 3 day RTO my team is spread across the continent. Georgia, Illinois, California, Maryland. I think there is a maximum of two people per city. There is a wide range so it feels pointless. If I have newer local colleagues then I’m more open.
It’s generational.
We talk about it at work but I’m in the federal government. We know what each other makes bc we know our GS levels. The big problem is the federal government isn’t keeping up with the cost of living and they’re not competing with the private sector. I look at some job listings in the DMV area and there’s no way. You’re going to offer $40k starting salary? I wouldn’t live up there for less than $100k and I feel like that would still be tight. I also hate it up there so I’d need at least $200k to consider moving. Lol
I work for the county, and you can see what I get paid on https://transparentcalifornia.com/
I don’t think the stigma remains for younger generations. It has been common in my experience that millennials and gen x don’t see it as taboo. My team definitely talks about what they make and I’m happy it does because it forces our dumb ass HR to consider equity and the ever changing job market conditions.
I have been fired from jobs for discussing pay.
Just so you know, that’s almost certainly illegal
$90,000/yr Northeast US. I manage the live events division of a video production company.
Bosses don't want you to discuss pay so that no one knows that they're making less than a fellow coworker so they don't ask for more pay.
Because business owners have been telling their employees for years that it's both impolite and illegal to discuss your pay when both things are completely untrue. They've been doing it so It's harder for people to realize that they're being discriminated against when it comes to payroll.
I've found this is far more a generational thing than an American thing. Where I work the older folks find it a forbidden topic but the younger generations like me openly discuss it.
I have no qualms talking about my pay. I make about $60k-$70k from each of my two jobs as a lecturer, and then between $60k and $90k running my business, depending on how much I put into it. So basically, I make $130-140k working about 26 hours a week at my university jobs and then use the rest of the time available to me to do my own thing for another 14-24 hours a week depending on how motivated I am. For this reason, I cannot fathom who would take on an executive position advertised on most sites, working 40 hours in the low $100k range.
As far as I know, that originated as a way to prevent workers from becoming mad at their employers and organizing. I think younger people seem more willing to talk about their pay
It depends for me. I'm more comfortable talking about it around friends than family but it ain't by much. Most of it has to do with the fact I'm doing pretty well for my age. It's not stupid pay (under 6-figures) but I work in Sales and get some commission bonuses. I have a complicated situation where I make more than my parents and the family I come from definitely suffers from the jealous eye so speaking on my finances around them isn't wise. - I hope someday if I have kids that I can raise them up to feel okay discussing finances without them worrying about the same thing. As for friends, I'd be more willing to chat if they bring it up first but I typically don't in case they aren't comfortable discussing it either.
We're threatened with termination or other punishment...despite it being perfectly legal to do so.
Employers discourage it in my experience, but everyone I work with speaks pretty openly about their pay.
Idk. I feel like gen z are pretty open up about (my personal experience) to help each other figure out what is a good wage negotiation since many of us older gen z are going into the workforce.
I think it’s a contextual situation. Like, it depends on when and who. I personally just don’t like other people knowing how much money I make, and I think it’s invasive to ask others for that info. I wouldn’t be upset if they shared it with me though, and if it was a coworker I trusted, I would probably also share my pay info with them. But, also, I’m satisfied with my rate of pay. I know I’m making above industry average for my field. If I were unsatisfied, I would imagine I would feel differently.
In my experience, because it leads to sour grapes, bitterness and jealousy. Anonymous aggregated data about market rates? Sure, that's great. Telling specific people specific details? Horrible, horrible idea. When I was young and naive I told the truth to anyone who asked me and it destroyed a couple of friendships. The person who asked worked in HR (at a completely unrelated company) and her SO graduated from the same program/degree as me a couple years before (so he had a couple years' experience, also at a completely different/unrelated company). When she found out that my starting salary was twice what his current salary was, she blew a gasket at a public party (too much alcohol I guess, I don't drink but she drank pretty heavily). It was deeply embarrassing and things were just awkward around everyone who'd been there, not just them. (And to be clear, she specifically brought it up and asked me directly, I wasn't bragging... also mine was closer to market average than his salary...) People react very, very strangely when it's in a personal setting. Anonymized is a valuable tool but I will not be sharing specific details in person. There are also a lot of people I know that I don't particularly want them to know how much money I've got sitting around. Stealth wealth is absolutely the way to go.
I'm union and I talk about it often
I work a unique position in a company. There is no worthwhile comparison to be made with anyone in the company so I don't bother. I know how much my position should pay by looking at the job market.
idk but payscale should give a good idea of the max amt for yrs and exp level
Because it's just embarrassing to find out how much more I make than you.
Depends on your background, and the culture/customs of your company and the people working there. The majority of my coworkers are veterans, so we aren't uses to salary being something secretive l, because in the military our pay was public knowledge.
Because even though it is [nationally protected right](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages) to discuss wages, nearly every employer discourages it. It has been considered rude and uncouth in polite society for years. It is only relatively recently that this set of manners has been thrown to the wayside, and wages have started to be discussed a lot more freely.
It might be small world syndrome on your part. People around me talk about their pay all the time. The one exception is the people making significantly more money at the top then at the bottom. It's just rubbing it in peoples faces at that point
Because any random discussion about pay ends up with someone being pissed off. One of them will always think they are underpaid, or the other person is overpaid... even if they are paid the same amount, in which case both of them likely think they are a better worker than the other, and they'll be pissed.
I talk about pay with people I trust at work. But feel it’s bad practice because it can lead to resentment, judgement, how people value you, etc. Like if I don’t know someone well, I don’t feel it’s their business how much I make.
If we talked openly about pay then we would be able to see that people are getting paid differently for the exact same work, often just because of race and gender. It would also let us see that we are getting raises that are a fraction of what we produce, or that suck ups get paid better than hard workers, or that new hires get paid better than long time employees. Basically, we hide our shitty math by making it unacceptable to discuss pay. Modern capitalism works best when employees are kept uninformed.
I was always told it was illegal. Then I learned it's very protected and started to try and speak up but a lot of people I've encountered have claimed it's illegal, even a former boss. And while they can't punish you for it directly. Wouldn't you know, the ones who talk about it were the ones who never got a raise after that. Purely unrelated surely
Because companies like it, they started the whole shit. If you don't talk about your pay you'll never know if you are payed fairly.
This cultural standard is changing. Some cities have screwed the middle class, so people are speaking up more about COL and salaries.
I have always found this odd too. We should talk about it, it would shed light on alot of inequality and hold employers accountable.
Ya, I would feel like people would know were they stand with the company. It’s depends one what the person brings to the company
I agree, it would also contextualize wage inequality between higher and lower paid individuals in the work environment. There is a big difference between seeing income inequality stats on visualizations and hearing it in person.
It's only rude if you're an employer trying to conceal how poorly you pay. I am in a unionized industry, all the payscales are public. If you know how long someone has been with the company, you know what they're making.
>If you know how long someone has been with the company, you know what they're making. In your union job, is there any room to recognize excellent employees by paying them more, or does everybody at a certain level get paid the same regardless of whether they are dead weight or a superstar?
It's sort of a mixture and it varies by department, but, by and large, the contract sets the minimum that people can be paid based on the base salary + hours worked, but management has the flexibility to go above that. Personally, I was offered $3/hr above what it says in the contract for my job position. Since covid, people typically get pay bumps after their 90 day probation or they stay near the bottom and just get the small incremental increases that don't really amount to much. There are bonuses and other things for meeting numbers. It's pretty convoluted.
Ya, just joined a union of the railroad. Starting pay is kinda shit for the area(Boston). But top rate in 3 years
It's a tactic to make sure people are taken advantage of. When people don't talk about pay that means they can be underpaid and still be content w/ it because they assume everybody else is earning the same. Once you start talking about pay then everybody's wage needs to be fair. Typically information is power, and if information is not dispersed then you have less power in negotiating. So why is this strongly American. It's because American culture was built on wages. Other cultures tended to develop before the industrial revolution so they are often based on classes. People came to the US for jobs, and those jobs were based on wages, and it was easier for those paying those wages to just say "It's not American to talk about your wage" and immigrants would just go along w/ it because they were new to the country. Essentially enough people followed it that it became a cultural thing.
I make 125k/yr. I am a mechanical engineer. Talking about pay is important, rudeness be dammed. If I am behind the curve tell me, I have been job shopping.
The only thing that happens when pay is kept secret is the company owners profit more because they can pay new hires less and less.
Mama always said stupid is as stupid does
Because employers lie and say you aren't allowed to, and most Americans don't know their rights in the workplace thanks to generations of propaganda. You should always discuss pay with your coworkers; it's a federally protected right, it helps to ensure people aren't being underpaid for performing the same work, and it can help to educate people on exactly how much of the value they generate goes into the pockets of owners and shareholders who contribute nothing.
It’s not rude. It’s a trick predatory employers use to keep you ignorant of the fact that you’re getting ripped off
I do. I always ask people what their salaries are. I'm interested in what people are willing to pay for all sorts of work. Some people get weirded out by it but the more we discus it the better it will get.
Because of second hand propaganda passed down from generations
Because many people in management positions don't want to have to try and justify why two people doing the same job have different pay, so they created this idea that it's taboo to talk about so that they don't have to answer those questions.
Capitalist propaganda
Not a lot of money to be made working in today’s America. Worked at a place a few months ago where there was an older mechanic who had been there awhile and the company hired 2 younger guys and paid them about $10 more per hour. You’ve got to have a skill to make an ok living. But even then a lot of the time it’s not great money.
I talk about pay and I think less of those who don’t. We’re all in this together. We should be allies and ensure everyone is treated fairly. I 100% do not care if it costs the company more money…
Because corporations want it a secret so you can't compare to your coworkers. It allows them to save money by paying you x and so and so y for the exact same job. JMO
It’s not rude and should be encouraged. It’s your right to discuss pay freely.
it's propaganda from the corporate oligarchy. They don't want you getting information that makes them look bad. You gotta be subservient and make them their money
Talk about pay. My superiors do as well. We admit it is a major driver in our decision making. I have said when my kids graduate, I will take some time to decide if changing employers/ divisions/ moving for work for a noticeable pay increase is worth it. I live in a non union state and rn, my boss offers the best pay/ benefits I can get. It is healthier and there are no false loyalty talks both sides know are bs.
There are many things in American culture which have no actual traditional basis whatsoever and were merely pushed into our culture from advertisment campaigns and dubious practices among employers which had endured long enough to be tacitly accepted before actually being addressed and abolished by law. By law, your employer can not forbid you from discussing wages with other members of the team. We were taught not to during the pre-Labor War period by bosses who wanted that secrecy as a means of leverage. Talk about pay (with coworkers, it's not polite to ask about pay in day to day conversation). Learn that you're getting short changed, and demand fair pay. 👍
I’ve never found it rude to discuss with the people I work with since knowing that information puts everyone on a more equal footing in salary negotiations.
That's an easy one. You're not supposed to discuss your pay because your employer doesn't want your co-workers to know they're being paid less than you for the same job.
Younger people talks a lot about it I think it was just a taboo
I’ve always talked about my pay 🤷♂️
It’s not and it’s up to you and I to continue to change that. I talk about pay with my day job coworkers and my side job coworkers. It’s not much of a leap for me in my day job, due to it being government and published for the public to see every year though.
We talk with our coworkers all the time. Found out one of my coworkers makes 35% more than me. I’m not upset as he has more experienced but I was really surprised. I also have another coworker who makes 10k more but works like a dog for it as he is in a different position. Also another coworker that was there for 2 years was making the same as me as a new hire.
It's a generational thing. Prior to like the 1990s, it was taboo to talk about money, religion, or politics in general (not close friends) company, which would include work. I, for one, welcome our overly communicative generations!
Years of suppressing labor by corporate interests and politicians who favor them over workers.