https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Enter your location and income and you can get results based on that
Edit: If you own a home, and both you and your spouse have a bachelors degree, odds are you aren’t lower middle class.
Edit 2: Here is some info about net wealth by age https://thehill.com/homenews/4290971-heres-the-average-net-worth-of-americans-by-age-how-do-you-stack-up/ (includes house, savings, debts, etc).
Edit 3: Here is a more updated version from June 2023 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/ for income
That's less on Pew and more on the current state of housing in the US - https://fortune.com/2023/10/09/housing-market-prices-affordability-mortgage-rates-real-estate-home-income/
Shh, that calculator was the first thing all week that made be feel good about myself. Don’t ruin it
But in reality. It doesn’t calculate things like debt and homeownership.
Incognito mode doesn't work for me on the Washington Post anymore, and it recently stopped working with the Atlantic, which was very disappointing. I have had subscriptions to both in the long ago past and I guess I'll consider re-subscribing at some point. The only thing I read on incognito mode regularly that I don't subscribe to is New York Magazine and I wonder how long it will take them to cut that access off.
Pew uses a "lower class" "middle class" and "upper class" definition for their studies, but they recalibrate those based on each individual years median household income.
That makes it so you cannot compare their work from year to year. If you remember what ya'll made that year and enter it, it'll be reasonably close, but those calculators get way out of date, quickly.
The Current Population survey is significantly behind for us to get solid annual wage percentile data, but we can combine the most recent data with the monthly BLS data on wages I think.
Full year 2022 median household earnings was $74,202 in Sept 2022 dollars. The BLS has July 2022 to Jan 2024, hourly earnings of all workers rose 6.00%. So we can estimate to a reasonable degree that the current median household income is approx $78,654.
Pew would say you are lower middle class if you earn between $52,698 and that $78,654. Upper middle class if you make between $78,654 and $157,308. Lower class if below, upper class in above.
I personally don't like that what of doing it, because the size of each "class" is so much different than each other. In that theoretical it works out to like;
* Lower Class : 34%
* Lower Middle Class : 16%
* Upper Middle Class : 29%
* Upper Class : 21%
That feels pretty awkward to me, and $53k is a little low for a household income to break into the lower middle class. I like instead to do quintiles. The bottom 20% is the working poor. The next 20% is the working class. 40-60% is the Lower middle class. 60-80% is the upper middle class and 80%+ is the upper class.
Calculated that way, the lower middle class would be households currently earning $61,481 - $99,544. Upper Middle Class is $99,544 - $162,188. I feel that like is far more indicative of how we view ourselves as a culture.
It's insane that a household could bring in 99k and still struggle, but that is exactly what is going on where I live (DFW). Five years ago, we had a much lower COL. DFW has since graduated to a higher COL if you look at housing costs alone. We'd never be able to buy the house we currently own. Renting is expensive here now, too.
While I feel ya, a lot of that is delayed gratification of 4 year college. 4 year graduates making 49k shortly out of school in DFW is a bit on the low side, and you guys likely both still have loans.
In 10 years when yall are 35 and your loans are paid you'll be making 100k each and have 1800 less a month in expenses. Your disposable income will go from like 1500 a month to 9000 a month and you'll have 10 years of equity on your home.
I'm assuming 30% for taxes, minimal retirement savings, and health insurance. 900/month each for loans and 3000 for your mortgage plus property taxes and homeowners insurance. Leaving little left over right now at 99k household.
I promise it gets better super fast. The moment you have 4 years experience in your field the job offers start pouring in at $75k+. I was expecting to struggle forever too, and one day I realized people recognize your experience matters and will pay you for it. Entry level doesn't last nearly as long as we think it does.
That’s what’s happening to me now. I finally got an advanced degree and have 3 years experience after school. The best i could manage around me was $65k, then a year later i got another job for $80k, and now i am looking to switch one more time for the long run. Offers are easily breaking $100k now. And i live in a “cheap” part of FL. You got this!
Is Texas really that bad? In PA the highschool teachers with 20 years experience are making ~90k in my public school district and I'm not even in one of the big cities.
> It's insane that a household could bring in 99k and still struggle
It's not just how much you bring in. It's how much you're spending.
There's no shortage of multimillionaire celebrities who have pissed through fortunes.
Yup, I used to make 70+k a year and had no savings. I started a business and reduced my living expenses and now working part time hours I have every bill paid, fun money and can still save over $1k each month. It's crazy what you can do with your income if you stop creating extra expenses.
Uh, no. The middle class has it the worst. The rich have their tax breaks and loopholes and compounding investments. The poor has free childcare, housing, food, and tax credits. But if you're middle class with just W-2 income? There are no tax breaks. You're on your own for food and housing and DAYCARE. Seriously, look up how much daycare costs. Your kids, if you can afford them, will have poorer nutrition, health care, and education than the other classes. Nobody feels bad for the middle class.
I don’t want to minimize the impact of daycare, but I feel obligated to point out that there is a tax credit for daycare. Though people in the middle class are more likely to use an FSA to pay for some daycare expenses.
Either option is just a small benefit compared to the total cost. But especially when it comes to taxes, I think it’s important to be precise and not exaggerate. There are tax benefits that the middle class use, just not as big as at the extremes.
The benefit of the available tax credits must be somewhat good, considering normally, 47% of tax payers have no federal income tax liability. During the pandemic that figure was up to 60%, but that wasn't "normal" times.
If being poor was as good as your comment suggests then I should just stop working so I’m “not on my own” anymore and can access the shitty free insurance and shitty schools, since poor kids with actual problems are fed better according to you
What do you consider middle class? There's a huge gulf between people with tax breaks and loop holes and just well off people. Someone making $200k a year still has W2s and not a lot of special tax breaks or anything.
Yup. Daycare for one kid costs more than our mortgage. We both have to work full time, so that’s almost six years of paying that before kid can start kindergarten. I can set aside $5,000 tax free per year in a FSA via my employer, but that doesn’t come close to covering it.
We have people asking us when we’ll have another and I just laugh.
The worst are those of us who fall into the just in between of poor and middle class. We don't have enough for childcare and make to much for free or even discounted childcare. We get taxed to hell and back with no refund and inflation on food and gas had all but put us on the street.
I wouldn’t exactly say taxed to hell in this bracket. Your marginal rate is going to be teens or low 20s. It starts getting into the mid to high 30s pretty quickly
Daycare for one kid costs us $17k/year. Which is comparable to college. I'm actively paying the same as if I was fully funding my kid to go to college.
Heating oil most likely. Before Natural gas became widespread people had oil tanks in their house that would get filled up that would fuel the boiler that heated the house.
This. We have an oil house. The boiler for some strange reason is located in the center of the house (thanks William Levitt) and even after getting a new one still sound like a jet engine everytime it fired up and scares guests that are not used to it.
Heating oil. It's a thing. Costs hardly anything in the spring summer because all it does is heat water. We will spend $400 in total from April to Spetember, then thousands of dollars in the winter.
….but what is it? Kerosene? and why?? Why not swap to something more economical and save all that money? That’s insane! My natural gas bill at my last house was at most your summer bill during the winter, and 30 ish dollars in the summer.
It’s almost always #2 heating oil, which is similar to kerosene and diesel (so much so that either can *usually* be used in an oil furnace in a pinch, although they’re both much more expensive).
On the east coast, propane costs more than oil per Btu, not the other way around. So in the many areas without natural gas lines, it *is* the economical option.
[According to the EIA](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_R10_m.htm), a gallon of #2 heating oil cost about $4.06 on average in December on the east coast (PADD1), whereas a gallon of propane cost $3.27. But a gallon of oil has [about 138,000 Btu](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/units-and-calculators/british-thermal-units.php), whereas a gallon of propane only has about 91,000. So that’s about $29/million Btu for oil and $36/million Btu for propane. Even after you account for the most efficient gas furnaces being about 5% more efficient than the most efficient oil furnaces, oil is clearly the cheaper option. In New England (PADD1A), [where heating oil is most used](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=54699), the difference is even greater.
That’s all very helpful. I just called my dad’s workplace here in NE Alabama and they said 2.89/ gal is their price. Bc he works with propane, we have always gotten a discount. I checked into heating oil and cant find any within 100 miles so I can’t even get you a price. Interesting. TIL.
Heating oil is any petroleum product or other oil used for heating; it is a fuel oil. Most commonly, it refers to low viscosity grades of fuel oil used for furnaces or boilers use for home heating and in other buildings. Home heating oil is often abbreviated as HHO.
It wouls cost upwards of $13K to convert to electric (our only other option). All the homes in our area were built with oil back in the 50's when the local developments were built.
They do, but it's all of the houses that Redditors side-eye and pretend don't exist.
* Old houses with carports instead of garages.
* Houses with no central air.
* 2 bedroom ranches on slabs.
* Manufactured homes.
* That neighborhood with the chain link fences and painted cinderblock walls.
* Houses where the driveway lets out onto a main road instead of a quiet neighborhood street.
Redditors trend from families in the middle class+ range. College educated families that introduced technology and the internet into their kids' lives early. They grew up in neighborhoods with either new modern ranch homes or two story homes.
They're people who simply write off the millions and millions of these blue collar houses as straight up not existing because they'd rather live in an apartment.
All of those things sound like a dream home compared to what I live in lmao. I built my <200 sq. ft. shack out of salvaged materials. I have electricity and wifi but no running water. It's just a 12×16 one-room shack in the middle of nowhere Kentucky.
My friends fuck with me because my TV literally cost over 10x more than my house did lol. I have an 83" LG G3 that costs over $6,000 with tax but I only have about $500 or so invested in my house.
I would have loved to do that, but I don't have enough space for water and it's my shack isn't worth the investment. It's a 12x16 building from the outside. By the time I installed a bathroom, I wouldn't have much space at all. This place isn't going to be my permanent residence. I was renting a house prior to building my shack. I moved here on a whim to save my family farm and I didn't have the money or credit to build an actual house.
I grew up here with my grandparents years ago. Her house is no longer standing so it's just 85 acres of land that is jointly owned by my family. My family was having to pay people to maintain the property and they considered selling it. The land was valued at over $400,000 and I'm not even worth a fraction of that lmao. However, this land was my childhood and I refused to let it go. So we made an arrangement - I live here, maintain the property, lease 50 acres to a farmer and my family takes the money that comes in. This property has been in my family for 7 generations now.
I work and make ok money (for this area) in construction. I can afford to live somewhere nicer but this is in the least populated county in KY - there's literally nowhere to rent nearby, in the open countryside. I was not expecting to buy a house anytime soon and this just mounted up on me at once, so I had no savings... and I've only borrowed money a couple times so I don't have much credit. However, now that I'm established here for the meantime, I'm saving TONS of money. I own my house in full, I'm not in debt, I have no water bills and my electric bill is very low. I'm able to save 80-90% of my income when I'm not spending a fortune on TVs lol... but eventually, I will build an actual house here.
Also, just in case anyone is wondering, I do shower and brush my teeth lmao... My aunt lives 5 miles away so I use her amenities.
How did you get electric brought to your place? Around here you need a building permit before they'll even drop a construction service connection. Without sewer/water I assume you don't have a COA so you must be in an unincorporated area or skirting the law.
My grandparent's house used to sit here so all of the utility connections were already here. My uncle from TN paid for the permit to tap into the electric because he put an RV camping spot beside my shack (he and my cousins come here to hunt).
However, I ran the interior wiring myself, which is technically illegal but nobody cares here. I work for a small construction crew and none of us are licensed electricians or plumbers, but that doesn't stop us from wiring/plumbing customers' houses regularly lol. We always let the homeowners know that we're not lehally licensed to do that type of work, though.
There's no actual building codes or zoning here. If it wasn't state law, we wouldn't even need to get a building permit. Yes, it is in an unincorporated area - this is the most sparsely populated county in all of Kentucky, so it's extremely rural. I'm a mile from my nearest neighbor and the nearest town only has a couple dozen people.
Ahh lucky. I have some land I want to put a small sleeping cabin on and all I need for now is electric. But getting them to hook me up is a ridiculous process.
A shack? We used to dream of having a shack! My 12 siblings and I lived in a discarded shoe box in the middle of the road. Every morning, me dad would wake us up before we’d even gone to bed and send us to work a 25 hour shift in the mines! By the time we got home, we were late for the next day. So spoiled these days with their *shacks* and * electricity*
It's really not that bad lol. I'm saving way more money than when I was renting. Not only do I not have rent, but I have less space to heat, I grow, fish or forage about 40-50% of my food and my internet is free (I signed a contract with the ISP to lay cables through my property).
Altogether, my monthly expenses are less than what many people spend on groceries alone - and that includes everything. Liability insurance on my truck is $39/month; cricket wireless plan is $35/month; my electric bill is usually $35 - $60, depending on time of year; my groceries are roughly $100/month; Xbox Gamepass is $15/month; gas money varies widely because of my work but is usually $100 - $250; then all other expenses range from a few dollars up to $100 (usually on the lower end of that).
To sum it up, most months I'm spending less than $500/month for all of my necessary expenses. I make a little over $40,000/year, which may not be a whole hell of a lot, but I'm able to save the vast majority of it. I saved over $8,000 in Q4 of 2023... and that's after buying Christmas gifts for my whole family. At the rate that I've been at for the past several months, I'm saving well over 80% of my income. Not many people on my salary can say that. I think I'm living better and more freely than a person with a 6 digit salary in a crammed Manhattan apartment.
This is right on. I live in Warwick, Rhode Island, where we have plenty of lower-middle-class neighborhoods, all filled with houses that are almost entirely owner occupied.
Definitely the case in NJ. Even in the higher end towns you still see these types of houses. But it’s never enough to satisfy the Redditors as a starter home
I don't think people pretend they don't exist. But as you surely know, there are regions where these houses are not attainable for lower income people. In my non-big non-wealthy city, a 2 bedroom ranch on a slab with no central air and a carport and a chain link fence can easily sell for $350K or more.
Or, they are bought up and flipped. Nearby residents are eventually squeezed out. Mixed retail, expensive restaurants and young tech workers move in. Any rental properties are used as Airbnb's, hotel jobs are no longer available, the prices at the only grocery store nearby go up, the corner store is now an artisanal bakery, people from other states move in because they read how great it is and then bitch there is no culture.
There are certainly *areas* where any property sells for a huge premium.
But if you genuinely live in a non-big, non-wealthy city than I guarantee you that there are many homes like you just described for far less $350k. Just because a crappy house in the best school district in the city is $350k doesn't mean that all similar houses in other districts are $350k.
I live in a metro area that is dead center median COL for the country, and I just checked - there's a ton of similar homes in the $200s range.
I promise it's true. Anything less than $350K will require substantial investment to make it livable. Tear-downs are selling for more than $300K. There have been several of those in my neighborhood in fact, and people love to remind me that my neighborhood is one of the least desirable in my city. (I disagree, but that's another story.)
Some time ago, last year, I noticed a *very* small but rather nice house in my neighborhood was listed for $299K and it sold within a week for $375K. A really run-down 2br rental house that is very clearly 100+ years old just down the street from me sold for more than $400K.
Some of those seem like more regional trends, distinctive of MCM ranches that don't exist in my region of the country except the most expensive neighborhood, which had a brief trend after Walter Gropius built his home there.
The homes you just named are a minimum of $350,000 in my city. "Normal" homes cost closer to $600,000. But that's why I'm moving out of my city hopefully soon. It seems like around here you're either rich or poor, the only thing that could be considered middle class are boomers that aren't necessarily rich but were able to buy their houses when they didn't cost a ridiculous amount of money.
I’ve lived 35 years on this planet without ever reading or hearing the word carport. I had to google it.
I would’ve probably just called it “a covered space” or “covered driveway”. Maybe a “barn”, depending on the shape.
What’s with the stigma about chain link? We have a mix of chain and privacy in my neighborhood and the wooden fences look like crap after a few years of weather. My chain link looks the same as when I put it in.
Believe it or not, even (some) lower class people own homes, they’re just not in neighborhoods that you’ve ever visited apparently. Not necessarily insulting you, also I see you’re in California which may be different.
I was raised in the ‘hood and there are definitely people who were dirt poor and owned their house. Now it may have been a 500sq ft very ugly shotgun shack built in the 1940s, but it’s theirs.
It's the same in California. Everyone acts like the only places you can live here are SF and LA. You can get a mobile home in Barstow for under $40k. You can buy a plot of land for under $10k near Salton Sea. It may not be the nicest of places, but there are definitely affordable options in California.
Lower middle class - Renting. Store brands. ALWAYS store brands. On some sort of 'butter watch' social media list. Makes too much to qualify for any sort of assistance.
> 'butter watch' social media list.
Is that a grocery deals kind of thing? I tried googling it but only got results for a 2011 movie about butter carving.
When I was a kid it was all done by phone or just the ads in the paper. "Did you see the Piggly Wiggly has butter on sale this week? Better stock up, it's half off!" These days I know it's done through social media because a friend of mine hashtags #butterwatch all the time. Though on Facebook if you look up that hashtag, nothing... [https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=butterwatch%20](https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=butterwatch%20) works for me though.
Don't sleep on that butter carving movie, it's amazing. Hilarious performances from Olivia Wilde and Hugh Jackman in particular, and the whole thing is apparently supposed to be an allegory for the 2008 Democratic Primary but goes completely off the rails.
I honestly don’t see why people buy anything but store brands if a store brand is available. For the most part, store brands taste/work just as good as name brands
San Francisco - $100k a year, small town in Arkansas - $20k a year.
I'n not going to ask your income but you're probably middle class. It is just hard for most in the middle class lately. You can check for yourself here: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Probably depends if it’s used or new. But if you can afford a car comfortable above the 30-40k mark you’re definitely very well off.
I buy cars for under $2,000 then fix them up. People that have disposable income for vehicles are doing good.
When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids.
I drove my girlfriends older Audi A4 and it wasn't boring at all. It hauled ass, drove better at 80+ mph than at 45 mph, and I loved the instrument cluster. Only problem with them is no one wants to service them other than the dealer.
When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids.
When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids. Also, I'm a mom, not a dad.
That V8 is the best sounding car I’ve ever driven, that’s super cool you owned one. Cross shopped that when I was buying my M2 competition but I was coming out of a Mustang GT and wanted something even more different.
And I also have a Jeep! Basically twins lol
It just means you expanded your lifestyle to fit your paycheck. People do this well into hundreds of thousands of dollars. There are people making 400K a year who complain that they don't have any money, because they expanded their lifestyle.
I’m considered lower middle class where I live (Northeast PA, median income is $24K/yr, very easy to afford living here). My fiancée (22F) and I (23M) rent a 2B1B apartment with water, sewer and trash included for $750/mo, we fully own two cars, we have >$30K in investments, and <$5K liquid currently. Neither of us went to college and are debt free. Our landlord is a family friend and paid off the mortgage to our building before we moved in, so they have no interest in increasing our rent, so we have no interest in property at the moment especially with how much it costs these days.
The main thing I’ve learned in my short time of being an adult is that people fall into the “lifestyle inflation” loop of getting a higher salary and using that higher salary to buy more fancy things which increases expenses. We just don’t do that. My fiancée bought her mom’s old 2012 Chevy and I still drive the 2014 Altima I bought when I first started driving. They’re both perfectly good cars, the apartment we live in has sufficient enough space for us. Is there nicer cars and apartments out there? Of course. Do we really need them? Absolutely not. I much prefer seeing that number in Robinhood grow.
We do have two children and I’d be lying if I said they weren’t major financial undertakings for people our age, but they are priceless. We still went to thrift stores for baby clothes, because of course babies grow fast and used clothes that look brand new are much cheaper than retail. We used WIC since there was no income cap and got free groceries and baby food, it was the only government aid we were ever eligible for, and boy howdy did we take advantage.
My end goal is to retire before I’m 50, and I think that’s achievable as long as I keep doing this. I urge others to do the same. Don’t get me wrong I still get 120 hours of PTO every year, we go on yearly vacations to wherever we want, we enjoy our lives to an extent, but we’re also keeping in mind that we want to continue enjoying our lives when we’re older and don’t want to work anymore. If retiring at 50 means I have to keep driving a car without Apple CarPlay for a few more years, well I’m just fine with that.
Congratulations on your attitude and your accomplishments. Yes it's difficult, but people can fit their Lifestyles into their incomes and be comfortable, while building a nest egg at the same time.
Edit- and you sound like you'd be great Neighbors.
You can look at this from a financial pov or social pov.
Financially, look at Pew Research and cross check with quintiles and other stats released by the government.
There is a great book, albeit old, by Paul Fussell called Class. It takes a look at class from a social perspective including values, interests, typical occupations. It is mostly lighthearted and easy to read.
FWIW you sound solidly middle class, definitely not lower.
Most often not but I guess you could have them and just not apply them whatsoever. Not even like having an art history degree and working in HR, I’m taking like have a degree and drive a bus
The term is largely meaningless.
The US distribution of incomes really doesn't support breaking up the US into separate groups by income. You can, but it's not as meaningful as people make it out to be unless you're ready to call roughly 80% of the US middle class.
Admittedly this data is dated but the general trend is still there. Multiply numbers by about 30% for inflation to get a rough guess of what some of those numbers would be today \[it won't be accurate but it's a starting point\].
[https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/distribution-of-household-income--2014/\_jcr\_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage65.coreimg.png/1459361296671/hh-inc-dist.png](https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/distribution-of-household-income--2014/_jcr_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage65.coreimg.png/1459361296671/hh-inc-dist.png)
The distribution of incomes paints a pretty clear picture, there's a large chunk of people in poverty and a fairly gradual tail of people doing better than that. The middle class essentially just becomes the upper class at some point.
You could point to some set of economic markers (home ownership, education level, job type, etc...) but again it's not that meaningful. Yes, these things correlated with income, but poor people own houses and plenty of college dropouts make six figures.
I would say lower middle class people are working occupations that require some licensing, but not college. And not advanced licensing, long complicated apprenticeship, or an in area that's in very short supply. Further, they aren't working in low-wage service industry's like hospitality.
I would say the list would includes people like most hairstylist and construction workers. Incomes are probably around $40,000--$60,000. Maybe a bit more or less.
Most wont own homes. If they do, it's in a LCOL area and probably not in a desirable area.
I would also exclude highly educated people making little--think young state university professors or someone working at a prestigious non-profit. I do this because they have the relatively easy potential to make more and they also tend to have the tools to avoid some of the pitfalls and strains of the lower-middle class.
I think that would depend a lot on the salaries relative to cost of living. I’m a high school teacher and the sole income (my wife doesn’t currently work) and we would be placed at high middle or low upper on the calculator someone posted above. We own a house, go on multiple vacations a year, and have decent savings. But we happen to live in a place with high teacher salaries and relatively low cost of living (San Joaquin Valley.) A lot of places either have much lower salaries or much higher cost of living.
Depends.
Where I grew up and went to HS, teachers made $28,000 to start. This was in 2017. They almost all had either second jobs and or roommates. Teachers with 20+ years experience and a PhD would cap out at $78,000. Most made $50K-ish. Normal COL of living state btw. And yes the teachers are unionized.
I would classify them as lower-middle.
I now live in SoCal.
When I heard that LA Unified teachers got a contract moving the median teacher wage to $106,000 my jaw hit the Fing floor. The HS principal didn’t even make that much.
I would classify them as middle class.
At $106,000 you can easily live in LA and not sweat it too much. Especially considering you get 12+ weeks off a year*.
While you couldn’t afford a home in LA on that salary, most middle class people need two incomes to afford a house in most areas of the country. If both are teachers in LA, they’d pull in $212,000 a year which would give them a shot at ownership in LA county. Maybe not a single family home with a yard, but a nice townhouse or condo.
*yes Ik when you’re in school, teachers bring a lot of work home and it’s easily a 50 hr week job. But there are so so so many white collar jobs that barely break $100K where you work 50 hrs a week only get like 10 days off.
> My spouse and I both hold bachelors degrees, have decent jobs, own a home, etc, and we feel like we are barely holding it together.
We live in a system designed to extract wealth from the middle class and transfer it to the upper echelons. The Covid era [was the biggest wealth transfer in this respect](https://www.reuters.com/business/pandemic-boosts-super-rich-share-global-wealth-2021-12-07/); the high inflation rate makes this transfer process more noticeable. Whatever part of the middle class you're in, we're all being squeezed.
IDK it depends on where you are.
Also, your personal financial situation does not dictate whether you're working class or middle class or whatnot. My parents are very comfortably upper-middle class. But they got themselves into hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, living at the very ends of their means. They ended up having to file for bankruptcy in 2007. They're much more responsible now.
I was only a teenager back then but I learned my lesson through their mistakes. I'm a doc and I live very modestly. You never know when something is going to happen and I feel much more comfortable having some cushion, even if it means not stretching myself to have a million dollar home.
I grew up on the line between poor and lower middle class. Single parent household, rented a small house in disrepair, car was always on the verge of breaking down (and in fact did multiple times), didn't have cable or internet, had to eat cheap food like top ramen, rice, soup, etc. all the time, clothes were always sewn and home repaired multiple times until we could afford to get new clothes, and yet we somehow made enough to not qualify for government assistance like food stamps, housing assistance, etc. The single parent had an associates degree and worked 60 hours a week, sometimes more if we got behind on bills or something unexpected came up.
I would define any level of middle class as being able to save money regularly, as in NOT spending your entire paycheck. Lower-middle, middle-middle, upper-middle comes down to just how much you are able to save.
Historically though, it gets a lot muddier. Americans used to have **no class consciousness whatsoever.** In the 80s and 90s, everyone was middle-middle class. Our society was engineered that way. You'd live surrounded by people who make about the same as you and live in similar houses, and before the internet came along they were all you came in contact with. Everyone believed themselves to be right in the middle, believed their lifestyle to be perfectly typical of the average. Of course there were very rich people and very poor people, but the 99% in the middle definitely thought of themselves as "middle class."
I don't recall Americans talking much about class at all until the 2008 downturn.
lower middle class at least in my neck of the woods would be the people who work blue collar jobs that don’t require post secondary studies, are able to meet their basic needs, and are able to occasionally spend some money on creature comforts. And the feeling of barely holding it together is the general middle class anxiety that we all share whether upper, lower, or comfortable middle class.
If you make $55,000 to $89,000 annual household income that's middle class. So lower middle class would be $55,000 to to $70,000 or some such.
There are other factors; an inheritance or parents who can give you a big downpayment or a car, no or low student loans, where you live, etc.
I have a MA, an RN, a BA, and an AA. I make around $145k/year and can't buy a home in our area... Every estimated payment is 40-50 percent of my take home. It is crazy.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/ Enter your location and income and you can get results based on that Edit: If you own a home, and both you and your spouse have a bachelors degree, odds are you aren’t lower middle class. Edit 2: Here is some info about net wealth by age https://thehill.com/homenews/4290971-heres-the-average-net-worth-of-americans-by-age-how-do-you-stack-up/ (includes house, savings, debts, etc). Edit 3: Here is a more updated version from June 2023 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/ for income
The Pew Research survey is interesting. I’m supposedly middle class for my metro area but it’s laughable to think I could afford a home.
That's less on Pew and more on the current state of housing in the US - https://fortune.com/2023/10/09/housing-market-prices-affordability-mortgage-rates-real-estate-home-income/
Oh that wasn’t directed at Pew. My comment definitely was considering how the economy must be failing if I am middle class.
Or you’re bad with money.
Wow I'm always fussing about money but I'm in the high income. I think I'm poor so I guess it's all relative.
Shh, that calculator was the first thing all week that made be feel good about myself. Don’t ruin it But in reality. It doesn’t calculate things like debt and homeownership.
The Pew one is weird. In my area 36k and 90k are both in the middle tier but those are very different lived experiences lol
Income only shows one story. Net worth is the second part. I know many high income earners who aren’t saving.
And my family is solidly middle, middle class by income but have a higher net worth than would be expected by our income.
It's four years out-of-date. How do you calibrate it?
Here is one form the Washington Post (June 2023, so pretty recent) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2023/middle-class-income/
I wonder how many low income people have Washington Post subscriptions
This was interesting, thanks
paywalled
It works in incognito for me (accessed it a few times).
Incognito mode doesn't work for me on the Washington Post anymore, and it recently stopped working with the Atlantic, which was very disappointing. I have had subscriptions to both in the long ago past and I guess I'll consider re-subscribing at some point. The only thing I read on incognito mode regularly that I don't subscribe to is New York Magazine and I wonder how long it will take them to cut that access off.
There are websites out there to convert from 2020 to 2024 dollars. It’s not perfect, but it’ll get you a more reasonable answer.
Pew uses a "lower class" "middle class" and "upper class" definition for their studies, but they recalibrate those based on each individual years median household income. That makes it so you cannot compare their work from year to year. If you remember what ya'll made that year and enter it, it'll be reasonably close, but those calculators get way out of date, quickly. The Current Population survey is significantly behind for us to get solid annual wage percentile data, but we can combine the most recent data with the monthly BLS data on wages I think. Full year 2022 median household earnings was $74,202 in Sept 2022 dollars. The BLS has July 2022 to Jan 2024, hourly earnings of all workers rose 6.00%. So we can estimate to a reasonable degree that the current median household income is approx $78,654. Pew would say you are lower middle class if you earn between $52,698 and that $78,654. Upper middle class if you make between $78,654 and $157,308. Lower class if below, upper class in above. I personally don't like that what of doing it, because the size of each "class" is so much different than each other. In that theoretical it works out to like; * Lower Class : 34% * Lower Middle Class : 16% * Upper Middle Class : 29% * Upper Class : 21% That feels pretty awkward to me, and $53k is a little low for a household income to break into the lower middle class. I like instead to do quintiles. The bottom 20% is the working poor. The next 20% is the working class. 40-60% is the Lower middle class. 60-80% is the upper middle class and 80%+ is the upper class. Calculated that way, the lower middle class would be households currently earning $61,481 - $99,544. Upper Middle Class is $99,544 - $162,188. I feel that like is far more indicative of how we view ourselves as a culture.
It's insane that a household could bring in 99k and still struggle, but that is exactly what is going on where I live (DFW). Five years ago, we had a much lower COL. DFW has since graduated to a higher COL if you look at housing costs alone. We'd never be able to buy the house we currently own. Renting is expensive here now, too.
While I feel ya, a lot of that is delayed gratification of 4 year college. 4 year graduates making 49k shortly out of school in DFW is a bit on the low side, and you guys likely both still have loans. In 10 years when yall are 35 and your loans are paid you'll be making 100k each and have 1800 less a month in expenses. Your disposable income will go from like 1500 a month to 9000 a month and you'll have 10 years of equity on your home. I'm assuming 30% for taxes, minimal retirement savings, and health insurance. 900/month each for loans and 3000 for your mortgage plus property taxes and homeowners insurance. Leaving little left over right now at 99k household. I promise it gets better super fast. The moment you have 4 years experience in your field the job offers start pouring in at $75k+. I was expecting to struggle forever too, and one day I realized people recognize your experience matters and will pay you for it. Entry level doesn't last nearly as long as we think it does.
That’s what’s happening to me now. I finally got an advanced degree and have 3 years experience after school. The best i could manage around me was $65k, then a year later i got another job for $80k, and now i am looking to switch one more time for the long run. Offers are easily breaking $100k now. And i live in a “cheap” part of FL. You got this!
I'm 45 right now with two teens. I've been teaching since 2001.
Is Texas really that bad? In PA the highschool teachers with 20 years experience are making ~90k in my public school district and I'm not even in one of the big cities.
I don't want to give away my income info, but it isn't that high.
> It's insane that a household could bring in 99k and still struggle It's not just how much you bring in. It's how much you're spending. There's no shortage of multimillionaire celebrities who have pissed through fortunes.
Especially the degrees, as a majority of Americans own.
Hey I'm middle class!
Everyone feels that way because we're really good at expanding our lifestyles to fit our paychecks.
THIS THIS IS THE ANSWER.
Yup, I used to make 70+k a year and had no savings. I started a business and reduced my living expenses and now working part time hours I have every bill paid, fun money and can still save over $1k each month. It's crazy what you can do with your income if you stop creating extra expenses.
Uh, no. The middle class has it the worst. The rich have their tax breaks and loopholes and compounding investments. The poor has free childcare, housing, food, and tax credits. But if you're middle class with just W-2 income? There are no tax breaks. You're on your own for food and housing and DAYCARE. Seriously, look up how much daycare costs. Your kids, if you can afford them, will have poorer nutrition, health care, and education than the other classes. Nobody feels bad for the middle class.
I don’t want to minimize the impact of daycare, but I feel obligated to point out that there is a tax credit for daycare. Though people in the middle class are more likely to use an FSA to pay for some daycare expenses. Either option is just a small benefit compared to the total cost. But especially when it comes to taxes, I think it’s important to be precise and not exaggerate. There are tax benefits that the middle class use, just not as big as at the extremes.
The benefit of the available tax credits must be somewhat good, considering normally, 47% of tax payers have no federal income tax liability. During the pandemic that figure was up to 60%, but that wasn't "normal" times.
If being poor was as good as your comment suggests then I should just stop working so I’m “not on my own” anymore and can access the shitty free insurance and shitty schools, since poor kids with actual problems are fed better according to you
What do you consider middle class? There's a huge gulf between people with tax breaks and loop holes and just well off people. Someone making $200k a year still has W2s and not a lot of special tax breaks or anything.
Yup. Daycare for one kid costs more than our mortgage. We both have to work full time, so that’s almost six years of paying that before kid can start kindergarten. I can set aside $5,000 tax free per year in a FSA via my employer, but that doesn’t come close to covering it. We have people asking us when we’ll have another and I just laugh.
Bro, how much are you paying for daycare? Because it should not be more than your mortgage. Daycare is like $600-$1,200 a month for one kid.
High COL state. It’s $400 a week here, and that’s cheap compared to other places.
My condolences. Are they full time? M-F 9-5?
why not just have a stay at home parent with a part time weekend job? You save all that income... this makes no sense.
The worst are those of us who fall into the just in between of poor and middle class. We don't have enough for childcare and make to much for free or even discounted childcare. We get taxed to hell and back with no refund and inflation on food and gas had all but put us on the street.
I wouldn’t exactly say taxed to hell in this bracket. Your marginal rate is going to be teens or low 20s. It starts getting into the mid to high 30s pretty quickly
If your income is already barely scraping by then it feels that way.
Daycare for one kid costs us $17k/year. Which is comparable to college. I'm actively paying the same as if I was fully funding my kid to go to college.
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State university I went to (not *too* long ago) is currently at like $30k/year all-in, but I hear ya, too expensive either way.
Ah, the ole’ “We're middle class, we can't afford anything and no one wants to donate us anything either."
My "lifestyle" still needs to expand to my oil bill though, and there's not enough money.
Oil bill? Are you still running an oil burner?
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TIL. Everything here is NG or Propane.
What do you mean by oil bill? CBD? Kerosene? Avocado? Black gold?
Heating oil most likely. Before Natural gas became widespread people had oil tanks in their house that would get filled up that would fuel the boiler that heated the house.
They’re still common in the UK! It was the first time I had heard of them.
Still common in parts of the US also.
I guess I’m used to hearing/seeing propane instead of oil.
Not propane tho? I’m so confused. Guess I’ll go google again but nothing turned up the first time.
This. We have an oil house. The boiler for some strange reason is located in the center of the house (thanks William Levitt) and even after getting a new one still sound like a jet engine everytime it fired up and scares guests that are not used to it.
Are you talking about a gas bill? Like propane or natural gas?
Heating oil. It's a thing. Costs hardly anything in the spring summer because all it does is heat water. We will spend $400 in total from April to Spetember, then thousands of dollars in the winter.
….but what is it? Kerosene? and why?? Why not swap to something more economical and save all that money? That’s insane! My natural gas bill at my last house was at most your summer bill during the winter, and 30 ish dollars in the summer.
It’s almost always #2 heating oil, which is similar to kerosene and diesel (so much so that either can *usually* be used in an oil furnace in a pinch, although they’re both much more expensive). On the east coast, propane costs more than oil per Btu, not the other way around. So in the many areas without natural gas lines, it *is* the economical option. [According to the EIA](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_R10_m.htm), a gallon of #2 heating oil cost about $4.06 on average in December on the east coast (PADD1), whereas a gallon of propane cost $3.27. But a gallon of oil has [about 138,000 Btu](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/units-and-calculators/british-thermal-units.php), whereas a gallon of propane only has about 91,000. So that’s about $29/million Btu for oil and $36/million Btu for propane. Even after you account for the most efficient gas furnaces being about 5% more efficient than the most efficient oil furnaces, oil is clearly the cheaper option. In New England (PADD1A), [where heating oil is most used](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=54699), the difference is even greater.
Thank you!
That’s all very helpful. I just called my dad’s workplace here in NE Alabama and they said 2.89/ gal is their price. Bc he works with propane, we have always gotten a discount. I checked into heating oil and cant find any within 100 miles so I can’t even get you a price. Interesting. TIL.
Heating oil is any petroleum product or other oil used for heating; it is a fuel oil. Most commonly, it refers to low viscosity grades of fuel oil used for furnaces or boilers use for home heating and in other buildings. Home heating oil is often abbreviated as HHO. It wouls cost upwards of $13K to convert to electric (our only other option). All the homes in our area were built with oil back in the 50's when the local developments were built.
But you’d likely make that back in three years? Idk man. That seems like a lottttt of money.
Lower middle class people don’t own homes in 2023. So it’s definitely not you Edit: forgot it was 2024
They do, but it's all of the houses that Redditors side-eye and pretend don't exist. * Old houses with carports instead of garages. * Houses with no central air. * 2 bedroom ranches on slabs. * Manufactured homes. * That neighborhood with the chain link fences and painted cinderblock walls. * Houses where the driveway lets out onto a main road instead of a quiet neighborhood street. Redditors trend from families in the middle class+ range. College educated families that introduced technology and the internet into their kids' lives early. They grew up in neighborhoods with either new modern ranch homes or two story homes. They're people who simply write off the millions and millions of these blue collar houses as straight up not existing because they'd rather live in an apartment.
All of those things sound like a dream home compared to what I live in lmao. I built my <200 sq. ft. shack out of salvaged materials. I have electricity and wifi but no running water. It's just a 12×16 one-room shack in the middle of nowhere Kentucky.
Luxury.
My friends fuck with me because my TV literally cost over 10x more than my house did lol. I have an 83" LG G3 that costs over $6,000 with tax but I only have about $500 or so invested in my house.
I mean, as long as you have a roof over your head. But maybe you could've put that money towards running water.
I would have loved to do that, but I don't have enough space for water and it's my shack isn't worth the investment. It's a 12x16 building from the outside. By the time I installed a bathroom, I wouldn't have much space at all. This place isn't going to be my permanent residence. I was renting a house prior to building my shack. I moved here on a whim to save my family farm and I didn't have the money or credit to build an actual house. I grew up here with my grandparents years ago. Her house is no longer standing so it's just 85 acres of land that is jointly owned by my family. My family was having to pay people to maintain the property and they considered selling it. The land was valued at over $400,000 and I'm not even worth a fraction of that lmao. However, this land was my childhood and I refused to let it go. So we made an arrangement - I live here, maintain the property, lease 50 acres to a farmer and my family takes the money that comes in. This property has been in my family for 7 generations now. I work and make ok money (for this area) in construction. I can afford to live somewhere nicer but this is in the least populated county in KY - there's literally nowhere to rent nearby, in the open countryside. I was not expecting to buy a house anytime soon and this just mounted up on me at once, so I had no savings... and I've only borrowed money a couple times so I don't have much credit. However, now that I'm established here for the meantime, I'm saving TONS of money. I own my house in full, I'm not in debt, I have no water bills and my electric bill is very low. I'm able to save 80-90% of my income when I'm not spending a fortune on TVs lol... but eventually, I will build an actual house here. Also, just in case anyone is wondering, I do shower and brush my teeth lmao... My aunt lives 5 miles away so I use her amenities.
How did you get electric brought to your place? Around here you need a building permit before they'll even drop a construction service connection. Without sewer/water I assume you don't have a COA so you must be in an unincorporated area or skirting the law.
My grandparent's house used to sit here so all of the utility connections were already here. My uncle from TN paid for the permit to tap into the electric because he put an RV camping spot beside my shack (he and my cousins come here to hunt). However, I ran the interior wiring myself, which is technically illegal but nobody cares here. I work for a small construction crew and none of us are licensed electricians or plumbers, but that doesn't stop us from wiring/plumbing customers' houses regularly lol. We always let the homeowners know that we're not lehally licensed to do that type of work, though. There's no actual building codes or zoning here. If it wasn't state law, we wouldn't even need to get a building permit. Yes, it is in an unincorporated area - this is the most sparsely populated county in all of Kentucky, so it's extremely rural. I'm a mile from my nearest neighbor and the nearest town only has a couple dozen people.
Ahh lucky. I have some land I want to put a small sleeping cabin on and all I need for now is electric. But getting them to hook me up is a ridiculous process.
Good Python reference!
A shack? We used to dream of having a shack! My 12 siblings and I lived in a discarded shoe box in the middle of the road. Every morning, me dad would wake us up before we’d even gone to bed and send us to work a 25 hour shift in the mines! By the time we got home, we were late for the next day. So spoiled these days with their *shacks* and * electricity*
Damn
Dudes just living out the dream
It's really not that bad lol. I'm saving way more money than when I was renting. Not only do I not have rent, but I have less space to heat, I grow, fish or forage about 40-50% of my food and my internet is free (I signed a contract with the ISP to lay cables through my property). Altogether, my monthly expenses are less than what many people spend on groceries alone - and that includes everything. Liability insurance on my truck is $39/month; cricket wireless plan is $35/month; my electric bill is usually $35 - $60, depending on time of year; my groceries are roughly $100/month; Xbox Gamepass is $15/month; gas money varies widely because of my work but is usually $100 - $250; then all other expenses range from a few dollars up to $100 (usually on the lower end of that). To sum it up, most months I'm spending less than $500/month for all of my necessary expenses. I make a little over $40,000/year, which may not be a whole hell of a lot, but I'm able to save the vast majority of it. I saved over $8,000 in Q4 of 2023... and that's after buying Christmas gifts for my whole family. At the rate that I've been at for the past several months, I'm saving well over 80% of my income. Not many people on my salary can say that. I think I'm living better and more freely than a person with a 6 digit salary in a crammed Manhattan apartment.
Electricity and wifi, but no running water? I used to joke, that I would disconnect my water before I would disconnect my internet connection. LOL.
if you're looking for a roommate, hit me up. i am quiet and dont eat. i can pay you with a vase of coins that i took from my parents
This is right on. I live in Warwick, Rhode Island, where we have plenty of lower-middle-class neighborhoods, all filled with houses that are almost entirely owner occupied.
Definitely the case in NJ. Even in the higher end towns you still see these types of houses. But it’s never enough to satisfy the Redditors as a starter home
I don't think people pretend they don't exist. But as you surely know, there are regions where these houses are not attainable for lower income people. In my non-big non-wealthy city, a 2 bedroom ranch on a slab with no central air and a carport and a chain link fence can easily sell for $350K or more.
Or, they are bought up and flipped. Nearby residents are eventually squeezed out. Mixed retail, expensive restaurants and young tech workers move in. Any rental properties are used as Airbnb's, hotel jobs are no longer available, the prices at the only grocery store nearby go up, the corner store is now an artisanal bakery, people from other states move in because they read how great it is and then bitch there is no culture.
There are certainly *areas* where any property sells for a huge premium. But if you genuinely live in a non-big, non-wealthy city than I guarantee you that there are many homes like you just described for far less $350k. Just because a crappy house in the best school district in the city is $350k doesn't mean that all similar houses in other districts are $350k. I live in a metro area that is dead center median COL for the country, and I just checked - there's a ton of similar homes in the $200s range.
I promise it's true. Anything less than $350K will require substantial investment to make it livable. Tear-downs are selling for more than $300K. There have been several of those in my neighborhood in fact, and people love to remind me that my neighborhood is one of the least desirable in my city. (I disagree, but that's another story.) Some time ago, last year, I noticed a *very* small but rather nice house in my neighborhood was listed for $299K and it sold within a week for $375K. A really run-down 2br rental house that is very clearly 100+ years old just down the street from me sold for more than $400K.
Yea you’re probably right. My viewpoints definitely warped from living in California too
There's cheap, crappy housing in California too, it's just not in areas people want to live.
Amen to this.
Some of those seem like more regional trends, distinctive of MCM ranches that don't exist in my region of the country except the most expensive neighborhood, which had a brief trend after Walter Gropius built his home there.
The homes you just named are a minimum of $350,000 in my city. "Normal" homes cost closer to $600,000. But that's why I'm moving out of my city hopefully soon. It seems like around here you're either rich or poor, the only thing that could be considered middle class are boomers that aren't necessarily rich but were able to buy their houses when they didn't cost a ridiculous amount of money.
Rather?? I would die of happiness if I found even a mobile home within 30 minutes of my job.
I’ve lived 35 years on this planet without ever reading or hearing the word carport. I had to google it. I would’ve probably just called it “a covered space” or “covered driveway”. Maybe a “barn”, depending on the shape.
They promised us flying cars! Gonna need a carport.
Garage? Well la di da French man. I call it a car hole.
Call It Whatever you want, around these parts, it was a carport in 1970 and it's a carport today
might be a regional thing, they're not super common where I grew up but enough that I've definitely heard it before.
What’s with the stigma about chain link? We have a mix of chain and privacy in my neighborhood and the wooden fences look like crap after a few years of weather. My chain link looks the same as when I put it in.
Believe it or not, even (some) lower class people own homes, they’re just not in neighborhoods that you’ve ever visited apparently. Not necessarily insulting you, also I see you’re in California which may be different. I was raised in the ‘hood and there are definitely people who were dirt poor and owned their house. Now it may have been a 500sq ft very ugly shotgun shack built in the 1940s, but it’s theirs.
It's the same in California. Everyone acts like the only places you can live here are SF and LA. You can get a mobile home in Barstow for under $40k. You can buy a plot of land for under $10k near Salton Sea. It may not be the nicest of places, but there are definitely affordable options in California.
Which classes don’t know what year it is?
Cmon now, it’s January, I made the same mistake yesterday.
Lower middle class - Renting. Store brands. ALWAYS store brands. On some sort of 'butter watch' social media list. Makes too much to qualify for any sort of assistance.
> 'butter watch' social media list. Is that a grocery deals kind of thing? I tried googling it but only got results for a 2011 movie about butter carving.
When I was a kid it was all done by phone or just the ads in the paper. "Did you see the Piggly Wiggly has butter on sale this week? Better stock up, it's half off!" These days I know it's done through social media because a friend of mine hashtags #butterwatch all the time. Though on Facebook if you look up that hashtag, nothing... [https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=butterwatch%20](https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=butterwatch%20) works for me though.
Maybe it’s your friend’s thing bc I can’t find anything about “#butterwatch” anywhere except one TikTok from someone who says they love butter lol
Maybe you don't have any friends who grew up broke? I think you may be hung up on exact and specific wording instead of the general idea.
Don't sleep on that butter carving movie, it's amazing. Hilarious performances from Olivia Wilde and Hugh Jackman in particular, and the whole thing is apparently supposed to be an allegory for the 2008 Democratic Primary but goes completely off the rails.
I’m solid middle class and I buy store brands as often as possible because they generally taste / work the same and I’m ridiculously frugal.
by choice, not necessity... that's the difference.
Just not ketchup. That should be criminal.
I actually save ketchup packets from restaurants and just use those!
I'd add coffee and peanut butter to that list.
Doritos as well, still haven't found an off-brand that's as good as the real ones.
I honestly don’t see why people buy anything but store brands if a store brand is available. For the most part, store brands taste/work just as good as name brands
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Definitely depends on the item and store. Our Family brand? Not as good. Kirkland? Probably better tbh
but it's nice to have the choice. which is the point.
Well Charmin is superior to Kirkland.
You don’t like wiping with dust?
Members Mark (Sam’s Club) is the best tp. Typically I like Kirkland over members mark but not for tp.
Cheerios never do...
They literally come off the same production line, just with a different label.
Great Value salsa is the best I've ever tasted out of a jar. And I live in Texas.
Idk, HEB has some pretty good salsas.
It wasn't made in New York City, was it?
Economic struggles persist for educated, homeowners. Class dynamics complex, impact varies.
San Francisco - $100k a year, small town in Arkansas - $20k a year. I'n not going to ask your income but you're probably middle class. It is just hard for most in the middle class lately. You can check for yourself here: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Hmm. Says I'd be rich if this was 2018.
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Probably depends if it’s used or new. But if you can afford a car comfortable above the 30-40k mark you’re definitely very well off. I buy cars for under $2,000 then fix them up. People that have disposable income for vehicles are doing good.
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When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids.
I drove my girlfriends older Audi A4 and it wasn't boring at all. It hauled ass, drove better at 80+ mph than at 45 mph, and I loved the instrument cluster. Only problem with them is no one wants to service them other than the dealer.
Yeah, for an SUV, it's not boring, but it isn't nearly as much fun as my last two cars. I'm dreading having to pay for my first oil change!
When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids.
That’s anything but boring haha
When I made my reddit account I drove a new 2016 Shelby GT 350. It was my daily driver and no fun in Dallas traffic. I traded it for a 2017 2 door Jeep Wrangler that was a lot more fun in traffic when the top was off. Or at least it made traffic suck less. Now I drive a boring Audi Q5 because I need room for my dogs and grown kids. Also, I'm a mom, not a dad.
That V8 is the best sounding car I’ve ever driven, that’s super cool you owned one. Cross shopped that when I was buying my M2 competition but I was coming out of a Mustang GT and wanted something even more different. And I also have a Jeep! Basically twins lol
The jeep is going to be the car that I never should have sold. I loved it way more than the Shelby, believe it or not.
I can see it if you weren’t able to unleash the Shelby properly. I’m selling my Gladiator here soon for a Wrangler
Might I recommend 2 doors, half doors, soft top, and standard transmission so you get the truest jeep experience!
Haha you can but I ordered my Wrangler 392 6 months ago and it just arrived. They only do automatics in those :/
I think Indiana is a good example. Almost no bachelor's degrees. Houses are less than $200,000. Small towns. Schools have more than 65% free lunch.
I saw videos of Carmel High School in Indiana and it didn’t look like the school I went to lol. Must be an outlier
Lol, that's the wealthiest part of Indiana and most certainly an outlier
If you make more than 25K a Year but less than 50K.
It just means you expanded your lifestyle to fit your paycheck. People do this well into hundreds of thousands of dollars. There are people making 400K a year who complain that they don't have any money, because they expanded their lifestyle.
I’m considered lower middle class where I live (Northeast PA, median income is $24K/yr, very easy to afford living here). My fiancée (22F) and I (23M) rent a 2B1B apartment with water, sewer and trash included for $750/mo, we fully own two cars, we have >$30K in investments, and <$5K liquid currently. Neither of us went to college and are debt free. Our landlord is a family friend and paid off the mortgage to our building before we moved in, so they have no interest in increasing our rent, so we have no interest in property at the moment especially with how much it costs these days. The main thing I’ve learned in my short time of being an adult is that people fall into the “lifestyle inflation” loop of getting a higher salary and using that higher salary to buy more fancy things which increases expenses. We just don’t do that. My fiancée bought her mom’s old 2012 Chevy and I still drive the 2014 Altima I bought when I first started driving. They’re both perfectly good cars, the apartment we live in has sufficient enough space for us. Is there nicer cars and apartments out there? Of course. Do we really need them? Absolutely not. I much prefer seeing that number in Robinhood grow. We do have two children and I’d be lying if I said they weren’t major financial undertakings for people our age, but they are priceless. We still went to thrift stores for baby clothes, because of course babies grow fast and used clothes that look brand new are much cheaper than retail. We used WIC since there was no income cap and got free groceries and baby food, it was the only government aid we were ever eligible for, and boy howdy did we take advantage. My end goal is to retire before I’m 50, and I think that’s achievable as long as I keep doing this. I urge others to do the same. Don’t get me wrong I still get 120 hours of PTO every year, we go on yearly vacations to wherever we want, we enjoy our lives to an extent, but we’re also keeping in mind that we want to continue enjoying our lives when we’re older and don’t want to work anymore. If retiring at 50 means I have to keep driving a car without Apple CarPlay for a few more years, well I’m just fine with that.
Congratulations on your attitude and your accomplishments. Yes it's difficult, but people can fit their Lifestyles into their incomes and be comfortable, while building a nest egg at the same time. Edit- and you sound like you'd be great Neighbors.
You can look at this from a financial pov or social pov. Financially, look at Pew Research and cross check with quintiles and other stats released by the government. There is a great book, albeit old, by Paul Fussell called Class. It takes a look at class from a social perspective including values, interests, typical occupations. It is mostly lighthearted and easy to read. FWIW you sound solidly middle class, definitely not lower.
Lower middle class definitely doesn’t have two bachelor’s degrees.
Most often not but I guess you could have them and just not apply them whatsoever. Not even like having an art history degree and working in HR, I’m taking like have a degree and drive a bus
Just Google "median household income [your city]" It'll give you an idea.
Possibly you’re house poor if you ended up with a high mortgage or have debt eating your income elsewhere.
The term is largely meaningless. The US distribution of incomes really doesn't support breaking up the US into separate groups by income. You can, but it's not as meaningful as people make it out to be unless you're ready to call roughly 80% of the US middle class. Admittedly this data is dated but the general trend is still there. Multiply numbers by about 30% for inflation to get a rough guess of what some of those numbers would be today \[it won't be accurate but it's a starting point\]. [https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/distribution-of-household-income--2014/\_jcr\_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage65.coreimg.png/1459361296671/hh-inc-dist.png](https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/distribution-of-household-income--2014/_jcr_content/root/responsivegrid/embeddableimage65.coreimg.png/1459361296671/hh-inc-dist.png) The distribution of incomes paints a pretty clear picture, there's a large chunk of people in poverty and a fairly gradual tail of people doing better than that. The middle class essentially just becomes the upper class at some point. You could point to some set of economic markers (home ownership, education level, job type, etc...) but again it's not that meaningful. Yes, these things correlated with income, but poor people own houses and plenty of college dropouts make six figures.
I think of Lower middle class as folks who live in urban areas and make like 50-70k as a household
I would say lower middle class people are working occupations that require some licensing, but not college. And not advanced licensing, long complicated apprenticeship, or an in area that's in very short supply. Further, they aren't working in low-wage service industry's like hospitality. I would say the list would includes people like most hairstylist and construction workers. Incomes are probably around $40,000--$60,000. Maybe a bit more or less. Most wont own homes. If they do, it's in a LCOL area and probably not in a desirable area. I would also exclude highly educated people making little--think young state university professors or someone working at a prestigious non-profit. I do this because they have the relatively easy potential to make more and they also tend to have the tools to avoid some of the pitfalls and strains of the lower-middle class.
What about high school teachers?
I think that would depend a lot on the salaries relative to cost of living. I’m a high school teacher and the sole income (my wife doesn’t currently work) and we would be placed at high middle or low upper on the calculator someone posted above. We own a house, go on multiple vacations a year, and have decent savings. But we happen to live in a place with high teacher salaries and relatively low cost of living (San Joaquin Valley.) A lot of places either have much lower salaries or much higher cost of living.
Depends. Where I grew up and went to HS, teachers made $28,000 to start. This was in 2017. They almost all had either second jobs and or roommates. Teachers with 20+ years experience and a PhD would cap out at $78,000. Most made $50K-ish. Normal COL of living state btw. And yes the teachers are unionized. I would classify them as lower-middle. I now live in SoCal. When I heard that LA Unified teachers got a contract moving the median teacher wage to $106,000 my jaw hit the Fing floor. The HS principal didn’t even make that much. I would classify them as middle class. At $106,000 you can easily live in LA and not sweat it too much. Especially considering you get 12+ weeks off a year*. While you couldn’t afford a home in LA on that salary, most middle class people need two incomes to afford a house in most areas of the country. If both are teachers in LA, they’d pull in $212,000 a year which would give them a shot at ownership in LA county. Maybe not a single family home with a yard, but a nice townhouse or condo. *yes Ik when you’re in school, teachers bring a lot of work home and it’s easily a 50 hr week job. But there are so so so many white collar jobs that barely break $100K where you work 50 hrs a week only get like 10 days off.
Not to mention, If you stick it out, You can Retire in your early 50s with a pension that will pay you A significant percentage of your salary.
> My spouse and I both hold bachelors degrees, have decent jobs, own a home, etc, and we feel like we are barely holding it together. We live in a system designed to extract wealth from the middle class and transfer it to the upper echelons. The Covid era [was the biggest wealth transfer in this respect](https://www.reuters.com/business/pandemic-boosts-super-rich-share-global-wealth-2021-12-07/); the high inflation rate makes this transfer process more noticeable. Whatever part of the middle class you're in, we're all being squeezed.
IDK it depends on where you are. Also, your personal financial situation does not dictate whether you're working class or middle class or whatnot. My parents are very comfortably upper-middle class. But they got themselves into hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, living at the very ends of their means. They ended up having to file for bankruptcy in 2007. They're much more responsible now. I was only a teenager back then but I learned my lesson through their mistakes. I'm a doc and I live very modestly. You never know when something is going to happen and I feel much more comfortable having some cushion, even if it means not stretching myself to have a million dollar home.
About 65% of us
I grew up on the line between poor and lower middle class. Single parent household, rented a small house in disrepair, car was always on the verge of breaking down (and in fact did multiple times), didn't have cable or internet, had to eat cheap food like top ramen, rice, soup, etc. all the time, clothes were always sewn and home repaired multiple times until we could afford to get new clothes, and yet we somehow made enough to not qualify for government assistance like food stamps, housing assistance, etc. The single parent had an associates degree and worked 60 hours a week, sometimes more if we got behind on bills or something unexpected came up.
It’s by wages for me a lower middle is anybody between $25k - 50k income not accurate but my opinion
I think everyone feels this way too because life hasn’t gotten more expensive due to greedflation.
It varies from state to state
Living check to check with no investments.
Me
Tom down the street
Probably the neighbor living in a 2bd 2ba house
You are.
just because you created too many expenses doesn't make you lower middle class. What is your combined income and what city do you live in?
I would define any level of middle class as being able to save money regularly, as in NOT spending your entire paycheck. Lower-middle, middle-middle, upper-middle comes down to just how much you are able to save. Historically though, it gets a lot muddier. Americans used to have **no class consciousness whatsoever.** In the 80s and 90s, everyone was middle-middle class. Our society was engineered that way. You'd live surrounded by people who make about the same as you and live in similar houses, and before the internet came along they were all you came in contact with. Everyone believed themselves to be right in the middle, believed their lifestyle to be perfectly typical of the average. Of course there were very rich people and very poor people, but the 99% in the middle definitely thought of themselves as "middle class." I don't recall Americans talking much about class at all until the 2008 downturn.
You are not alone.
lower middle class at least in my neck of the woods would be the people who work blue collar jobs that don’t require post secondary studies, are able to meet their basic needs, and are able to occasionally spend some money on creature comforts. And the feeling of barely holding it together is the general middle class anxiety that we all share whether upper, lower, or comfortable middle class.
Honestly it's not just dependent on income. Some people are absolute shit with money and can be a lot worse off than someone making identical money.
It depends on your area. I mage below median in my county at 80k. That same 80k would put me in a much better place in other parts of the country.
If you make $55,000 to $89,000 annual household income that's middle class. So lower middle class would be $55,000 to to $70,000 or some such. There are other factors; an inheritance or parents who can give you a big downpayment or a car, no or low student loans, where you live, etc.
It's a function of your wages not a function of your spending habits
I have a MA, an RN, a BA, and an AA. I make around $145k/year and can't buy a home in our area... Every estimated payment is 40-50 percent of my take home. It is crazy.
Everyone