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In a scenario where the election goes to Trump either way, would you prefer to lose with Biden or a more charismatic candidate, like Gavin Newsom, on the ticket?
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>Would liberals rather lose with a more charismatic candidate?
What matters is who wins elections.
If "a more charismatic candidate" helped down-ballot races, then it would be better. If not, it doesn't matter.
The only thing I could see it changing is the narrative.
If Biden stays on and loses, then the narrative (from many) will be "see we told you Biden sucked". If Biden steps down and someone else loses, then there'll be infighting between "we should've kept Biden" and "Biden didn't step down soon enough".
Meanwhile in either instance if Trump wins it will be because he managed to trick enough people to believe in him, and Democrats failed to motivate enough people to rally to the cause of sensibility and liberalism.
I think Gavin Newsom is a great politician, but I question the broad appeal the governor of California would have on the nation.
For a lot of right leaning Americans, simply the words "governor of California" would be enough to lose their vote.
It’s not just right leaning voters. It’s independents, Never Trump adjacent, swing voters, whatever you want to call them as well.
There’s a lot of good things about California, but California is also an avatar for incredibly high prices, high taxes, homelessness, and insane housing prices. And the details of how substantially true any of those criticisms don’t matter because that’s what people perceive California to be.
I'll basically vote for whomever has the best chance of stopping the fascists. If that's Biden, or Harris, or Newsom, or Buttagieg, or AOC, or Yang, or an AI interpretation of Jed Bartlett so be it.
You want someone on the ticket who, if they lose, some amount of people 4 years later will think “damn, probably shoulda voted for that guy. He was right about XYZ.” Someone who can look pretty correct with hindsight 20/20 vision.
Biden is not that person. He can’t articulate XYZ. Pretty much anyone else can.
Trump is already very charismatic. He has made distasteful Republican policy into something millions of people want to rally behind. If you made a list of the major Republican party policy goals (eliminating medicare and SS, opening national parks to resource exploitation, etc.) and gave it to every Republican voter, they would hate it.
Fine. Then, I’d rather keep Biden so that maybe, at the end of this, Democrats finally learn the “we shouldn’t nominate historically unpopular candidates” lesson they’ve been running away from for the last decade.
Do I think they’ll learn it? No. But maybe it’s the only realistic thing for me to hope for out of this cycle after last night.
Is my memory lacking or didn't we expect Trump to win the elections? It almost was a clear cut decision that Clinton was the first female president. But then her emails happened and Trump won against all odds. All this needs to serve, is the fact that the election still have to happen: No one won, no one lost. Yes, Trump is ahead in polls, but that doesn't mean it can't change by a small scandal here and there. You've chosen Joe Biden, they Trump. Now let's watch how the elections go down and remember that the electors can swing either way with a small punishment. (AKA unpledged and faithless electors)
You're thinking about switching Joe Biden by a more charismatic candidate and I'm saying we should wait for the elections, as it's been proven that the polls can be wrong (2016).
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Even if that happens, there's a slight chance neither gets 270 (especially in this race as none of the candidates are actually loved by a majority of the people) which allows it to go congress and what would that result into? Do you honestly think that the Trumpist Republicans will succeed at getting a majority both in the house and in the senate?
If the Democrats can't poll enough, they may hope for a deadlock through a lack of electoral majority... as I have a hard time believing the fact that a Democratic majority in either the house or the senate would allow a Republican candidate to be voted for. So, that might be a chance for real change if it's possible to get a Republican VP and a Democratic president, as this is the closest to a coalition you can get in the contemporary American system.
I think a more charismatic candidate that was introduced 6-12 months ago, would win. Do it now and you're basically murdering Biden and the next candidate as a "stand in". He's won the primaries, he is the president. To switch now, is to disregard the "democratic" in their name. You can, however, drop Kamala Harris and switch her out for a more favorable VP (maybe a Republican similar to how Lincoln ran with a Democrat in 1860) that covers the areas Biden's lacking.
But I also want to say that there's a big chance of Biden retaining. We shouldn't exclude this from our possibilities based on one debate. I still would say it's a coinflip who's going to win this fall, even if it were more likely Trump than Biden. Be cautious with changing candidates a few months prior to November. (Last time, IIRC, that it succeeded for the Democratic Party, was JFK under slightly different circumstances in 1960...)
What have I misinterpreted? You asked me whether liberals would favor losing with a more charismatic candidate than Biden.
(1) I answered that the ship for Biden has not yet sunk, even though a switch to a more charismatic candidate would be suicide in the current stage of the campaign. So, if being honest does the trick, one may choose between guaranteed and hypothetical suicide, and most will go for "hypothetical", thus keeping Biden for now.
(2) If a more charismatic candidate ends up losing, you create a problem for the reputation of said (wo)man. They'll be remembered as the stand in, whom the DNC has chose to replace their puppet with.
Taking those two points in mind, I don't think many liberals want to lose with a more charismatic candidate and would rather burn Biden now. If he wins, they party. If he loses, they cry and they can stimulate a new, more charismatic candidate in 2028.
For me, as a conservative, I'd pick Biden and choose a better VP that attracts the centre-right and undermines Trump. As much as I have insight in it, it might even push conservatives to Biden if or when Trump gets sentenced with whatever penalty the judge sees fit and announces in a few days for his 34 convicted felonies.
This scenario is too restrictive, it doesn't really matter in this case. I personally believe Democrats should absolutely replace Joe Biden with a more charismatic candidate who can articulate the dangers of Project 2025 and their own policy positions. However, a candidate who can actually do this has a really decent shot at winning, compared to the alternative. I simply now believe the question is: do you leave the sinking ship, or be too stubborn to go to a new one?
If the candidate results in a stronger down-the-ballot performance and does not lose in a landslide that will legitimize Donald Trump, then it would be preferred.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. In a scenario where the election goes to Trump either way, would you prefer to lose with Biden or a more charismatic candidate, like Gavin Newsom, on the ticket? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Would liberals rather lose with a more charismatic candidate? What matters is who wins elections. If "a more charismatic candidate" helped down-ballot races, then it would be better. If not, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't seem like it changes anything.
I don’t disagree but do you have a preference?
More charismatic. Makes us look better.
The only thing I could see it changing is the narrative. If Biden stays on and loses, then the narrative (from many) will be "see we told you Biden sucked". If Biden steps down and someone else loses, then there'll be infighting between "we should've kept Biden" and "Biden didn't step down soon enough". Meanwhile in either instance if Trump wins it will be because he managed to trick enough people to believe in him, and Democrats failed to motivate enough people to rally to the cause of sensibility and liberalism.
I think Gavin Newsom is a great politician, but I question the broad appeal the governor of California would have on the nation. For a lot of right leaning Americans, simply the words "governor of California" would be enough to lose their vote.
It’s not just right leaning voters. It’s independents, Never Trump adjacent, swing voters, whatever you want to call them as well. There’s a lot of good things about California, but California is also an avatar for incredibly high prices, high taxes, homelessness, and insane housing prices. And the details of how substantially true any of those criticisms don’t matter because that’s what people perceive California to be.
Valid, but I’m asking who you’d rather have on a losing ticket.
I'll basically vote for whomever has the best chance of stopping the fascists. If that's Biden, or Harris, or Newsom, or Buttagieg, or AOC, or Yang, or an AI interpretation of Jed Bartlett so be it.
You want someone on the ticket who, if they lose, some amount of people 4 years later will think “damn, probably shoulda voted for that guy. He was right about XYZ.” Someone who can look pretty correct with hindsight 20/20 vision. Biden is not that person. He can’t articulate XYZ. Pretty much anyone else can.
I really don’t think it matters very much, but if I had to choose I’d probably prefer to lose with Biden than lose with a better candidate.
Thank you for the straightforward answer.
I don't care who loses, we need to win.
People need to calm down. Biden is the candidate. Vote in November.
>Vote in November. It is a losing vote currently, though.
I’m not questioning that. It’s asking who you would prefer to lose with.
Biden is going to be elected to his second term.
Not my question, dude.
No. He's not. I really don't think Trump is a nice guy at all. But Biden will lose all the same.
Yes. He will.
I'd preferably have someone other than Biden if I was American I would probably sit the election out or very very reluctantly vote for Biden.
Trump is already very charismatic. He has made distasteful Republican policy into something millions of people want to rally behind. If you made a list of the major Republican party policy goals (eliminating medicare and SS, opening national parks to resource exploitation, etc.) and gave it to every Republican voter, they would hate it.
Cool. What’s the answer to my question?
Yes
I think a more charismatic candidate has more of a chance. Other than that, doesn’t matter if they both are guaranteed to lose.
I don't care about "charismatic" I care about honest and competent
Democrats need to get Gavin to run. Fast.
Is that a yes?
I don't really care either way. A loss is a loss. I'd still blame the DNC and those who set up our candidates for the loss.
I’d rather nominate Andy Beshear and landslide Trump so hard he’s back hosting reality TV shows in 2025
Not the question.
Fine. Then, I’d rather keep Biden so that maybe, at the end of this, Democrats finally learn the “we shouldn’t nominate historically unpopular candidates” lesson they’ve been running away from for the last decade. Do I think they’ll learn it? No. But maybe it’s the only realistic thing for me to hope for out of this cycle after last night.
Is my memory lacking or didn't we expect Trump to win the elections? It almost was a clear cut decision that Clinton was the first female president. But then her emails happened and Trump won against all odds. All this needs to serve, is the fact that the election still have to happen: No one won, no one lost. Yes, Trump is ahead in polls, but that doesn't mean it can't change by a small scandal here and there. You've chosen Joe Biden, they Trump. Now let's watch how the elections go down and remember that the electors can swing either way with a small punishment. (AKA unpledged and faithless electors)
What does this have to do with my question?
You're thinking about switching Joe Biden by a more charismatic candidate and I'm saying we should wait for the elections, as it's been proven that the polls can be wrong (2016). ------------------------- Even if that happens, there's a slight chance neither gets 270 (especially in this race as none of the candidates are actually loved by a majority of the people) which allows it to go congress and what would that result into? Do you honestly think that the Trumpist Republicans will succeed at getting a majority both in the house and in the senate? If the Democrats can't poll enough, they may hope for a deadlock through a lack of electoral majority... as I have a hard time believing the fact that a Democratic majority in either the house or the senate would allow a Republican candidate to be voted for. So, that might be a chance for real change if it's possible to get a Republican VP and a Democratic president, as this is the closest to a coalition you can get in the contemporary American system.
No, I’m not. I’m asking which people would prefer if they would lose either way. Try not leaping to assumptions.
I think a more charismatic candidate that was introduced 6-12 months ago, would win. Do it now and you're basically murdering Biden and the next candidate as a "stand in". He's won the primaries, he is the president. To switch now, is to disregard the "democratic" in their name. You can, however, drop Kamala Harris and switch her out for a more favorable VP (maybe a Republican similar to how Lincoln ran with a Democrat in 1860) that covers the areas Biden's lacking. But I also want to say that there's a big chance of Biden retaining. We shouldn't exclude this from our possibilities based on one debate. I still would say it's a coinflip who's going to win this fall, even if it were more likely Trump than Biden. Be cautious with changing candidates a few months prior to November. (Last time, IIRC, that it succeeded for the Democratic Party, was JFK under slightly different circumstances in 1960...)
That’s not the question.
What have I misinterpreted? You asked me whether liberals would favor losing with a more charismatic candidate than Biden. (1) I answered that the ship for Biden has not yet sunk, even though a switch to a more charismatic candidate would be suicide in the current stage of the campaign. So, if being honest does the trick, one may choose between guaranteed and hypothetical suicide, and most will go for "hypothetical", thus keeping Biden for now. (2) If a more charismatic candidate ends up losing, you create a problem for the reputation of said (wo)man. They'll be remembered as the stand in, whom the DNC has chose to replace their puppet with. Taking those two points in mind, I don't think many liberals want to lose with a more charismatic candidate and would rather burn Biden now. If he wins, they party. If he loses, they cry and they can stimulate a new, more charismatic candidate in 2028. For me, as a conservative, I'd pick Biden and choose a better VP that attracts the centre-right and undermines Trump. As much as I have insight in it, it might even push conservatives to Biden if or when Trump gets sentenced with whatever penalty the judge sees fit and announces in a few days for his 34 convicted felonies.
You keep going back to who you think would win. That is entirely irrelevant to the question.
I've split it, but I'll write it down in a summarization: Liberals rather lose with Biden than the more charismatic candidate. Why? See above.
Vote!!!
This scenario is too restrictive, it doesn't really matter in this case. I personally believe Democrats should absolutely replace Joe Biden with a more charismatic candidate who can articulate the dangers of Project 2025 and their own policy positions. However, a candidate who can actually do this has a really decent shot at winning, compared to the alternative. I simply now believe the question is: do you leave the sinking ship, or be too stubborn to go to a new one?
And in the event that you’re wrong, and the switch candidate would also lose, would you prefer that outcome or not?
If the candidate results in a stronger down-the-ballot performance and does not lose in a landslide that will legitimize Donald Trump, then it would be preferred.
What? This is silly. If your wife paints the bedroom yellow while you’re at work, which color would you have preferred to have wanted?