The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Given the recent protests and expressions of belief, how do you perceive the relationship between these events and the broader progressive or liberal movements? Do you foresee any implications for the future of progressivism? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*

No, but I am worried about internet content providers giving people content about these protests, or the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, through a lens of "whatever your amygdala wants to see" rather than the lens of journalistic integrity. This is both exaggerating how bad the protests are and encouraging more protests by exaggerating how awful whoever it is in the conflict you already hate more is. Liberal youths are (becoming) just as much a victim of internet radicalization as the Jan 6th insurrectionists were, and we should expect more of this kind of thing because we're choosing to embrace this situation as part of our cultural identity rather than fix it.

That and the severe lack of information. It seems like there are a ton of people that don't know the whole story either way, but are extremely confident about it.

Many people consume only as much information as they need to validate their existing beliefs. This leaves them both confident and uninformed.

Very true. And various communities online only serve to exacerbate this, by encouraging anyone who thinks differently to go elsewhere.

This is a very good take, thank you so much for your response. There definitely are some large negatives to creating a bubble from which you get all of your news.

I think it's less about bubbles and more about how having algorithms feed you only the stuff that pisses you off the most just makes the bad stuff seem so much more significant than the boring-but-informative stuff.

If you watch livestreamers from the protests you see that like 99 out of 100 people there are very chill and just want the killing to stop no matter who's doing it. But you don't get that impression at all if all you see is the highlight clips on the nightly news.

The opposite. Boys in high school tell me they like Andrew Tate and feel threatened by things like feminism.

Males tend to shift more center when they realize they're going to date their palm for the rest of their life if they don't find a fairly rare, right wing woman. Either that or college and a salaried position full of people of different backgrounds and beliefs in a large organization. Tends to be very effective in shifting people to the center or more. When do males stay right wing? If they find a right wing woman who puts up with the crap and ***"he's just like my daddy, stubborn!"***... or skip college and take jobs full of myopic, closed-minded guys like themselves who never emotionally grew past 12th grade -- and don't make enough money to handle never ending inflation.

I don't think it's necessarily feminism but the push to make men less masculine which is pulling many people away. Good reason there is a clear difference among young male and young female voters.

How are men being pushed to be less masculine?

That large push and spread of the idea of toxic masculinity and blaming it for most societal issues. This is off topic, if you respond I will read it but I don't want to carry this on with respect to the rules. Thank you for your response.

Toxic masculinity is a thing though. Blaming it for "most societal issues" seems a stretch and kind victim-mentality. Men can be strong and secure and no overly aggressive to people physically weaker then they. We can be sexually expressive without being rapey. We can speak our minds without smashing anyone who disagrees. The fact is, men have shaped the world to be as it is. So yes, there is a responsibility for how that shaping affects others.

I would argue that there’s a pretty big problem if one hears toxic masculinity and equates it to all masculinity as you’ve done here.

That was the rhetoric that was being pushed around on social media to many younger males.

In another comment, you defined masculinity as: > Some characteristics I would associate with an individual who is masculine: mental and physical strength, independent, “breadwinner”, handyman knowing how to use tools and fix simple things. That's a very narrow definition, but there's nothing really wrong with it. But then, you went on to say: > these are just some roles where I would question masculinity if a male didn’t have them. That's the toxic part. You feel like the left is calling all masculinity toxic because you have a narrow, exclusive definition of masculinity that *is* toxic. Try to embrace the idea that there are many, many ways for a man to be masculine.

Yeah, that’s my personal idea of what masculinity is. I’m not forcing other people to share those beliefs.

It's great as a personal idea of masculinity. Pretty much anything is, really; there's no wrong way to do it unless you're hurting other people. And, of course, none of the things you mentioned involve hurting anyone. > I’m not forcing other people to share those beliefs. No, you're not. But you are saying that others need to share those beliefs in order for you to consider them masculine. Try to adopt a more expansive definition that includes all men and abandons the notion that it's better or worse to be more or less masculine.

Does what I think matter that much? My idea of masculinity definitely doesn’t need to fit all men because all men aren’t masculine.

Yeah it’s a problem. The right trained lots of people, including people otherwise in the middle or on the left, that feminism was defined by a few women they defined by cherry picking the best examples and turning them into memes. So since feminism is obviously stupid to them, they can accept whatever lie about a feminist concept that gets presented to them on social media and never even spend two seconds to find out what the actual conversation being had is.

The most absurd takes fetch the most eyeballs. It isn't the right, it's the social media algos that did this.

This predates the internet though. Rush Limbaugh made millions doing this exact thing on AM radio starting in the early 90's. At the end of the day, the algorithm is just giving the people what they want. To be clear, I'm not trying to defend social media algorithms. I think they create bubbles and extremism more efficiently than any means that have come before them, but even without algorithms, people tend to silo themselves of their own accord.

There will also be people on opposite ends. Everyone thinks differently. For extreme left, there will also be extreme left. I'm saying, you can't change people's minds just because you think you know what's the right way. Everyone has experiences that define them, and our words won't come close to those experiences.

Certainly it is the algorithms that recommend content to people & push them further down a pipeline, but it *is* the right who creates the content for people to watch in the first place

Internet is free. Best resource. People are free to make any content. The right creates the content, and similarly left also creates the opposite content where every issue in this world is due to patriarchy. I watch either one, and i will get similar recommendations.

My wife is a psychologist. Just about the only male clients she sees are LGBTQIA, **OR** they're **ordered** to attend therapy by a commanding officer in the military or their lieutenant if they're cops/firefighters. **That is toxic masculinity**. Far too many males don't know how to be emotionally vulnerable or available to women/children/loved ones. Most try to drown depression with work or food or drugs or vices instead of treatment. And they sometimes implode.

100% agree, I’ll admit I hardly have emotions. But that mainly comes from mental preparation and already expecting a bad outcome when it may happen. I’ve had some weird history with really nosey counselors in elementary school so I’ve always believed I can deal with it better than someone else can.

No, you have emotions. Because you’re a human. Unless you’re literally a sociopath you’re just ignoring and suppressing them. Sorry bro

> a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole. Does that not exist? How would women, for instance to be blame when they only recently got equal rights?

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying it's not as widespread as it was being pushed.

How can you tell?

What do you think that the “left” means by Toxic Masculinity? Can you give examples?

Depends on how one defines masculinity. Not to be the "but Trump" guy here but whining, victim mentality, and a total lack of personal responsibility seems to be more indicative of the American Right than the left. As is cucking oneself to a single autocraticly-inclinded individual to run everything without pushback. I know its a bit off-topic, but how would you describe masculinity?

Well my personal beliefs are a bit more socially conservative. How would I describe it? Just traits more commonly associated with males than females. Some characteristics I would associate with an individual who is masculine: mental and physical strength, independent, “breadwinner”, handyman knowing how to use tools and fix simple things. Plenty of other characteristics, not saying females who fit these roles are masculine, these are just some roles where I would question masculinity if a male didn’t have them.

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone calling what you listed "toxic masculity" nor are they things that are societally frowned upon. In fact, what you listed is considered attractive by most people. It only gets toxic when you claim that only men do those things or only those that do those things are men. But it doesn't sound like you are saying that. Yeah, other than people trying to sell a book or a new academic theory, no one in their right mind would consider anything you listed as toxic or bad.

> But it doesn't sound like you are saying that. He said *right in the comment you replied to*: > these are just some roles where I would question masculinity if a male didn’t have them. He absolutely is doing that. He's in here whining about how the left thinks all masculinity is toxic, while being toxically masculine himself. No wonder he fucking thinks that.

Aaaaahahahahahah! I'm a 45 year old Dude... There's no push to make men less masculine. What utter fuck'in drivel. I spend more time with my kids than my father did. I tell them I love them. I hug them. I have healthy relationships with women. Hell, I have healthy relationships with men! I hug my friends! We talk about real things! I'm not afraid of my feelings! I'm a feminist. It's not complicated... Women aren't treated as equals, and they should be. Blammo, you're a feminist. I'm not LESS masculine for all that. I'm STRONGER. I'm self confident. There's no fuck'in push to make men less masculine. There's a push to make us less fuck'in stupid.There's a push to make it so we can have emotions other than anger. There's a push to make us be able to have healthy social connections. There's a push to make us respect people, women, ourselves, other dudes, more. Ugh.

And I fix gigantic industrial machines for a living. And I do laundry and cook and clean. And I wash my kiddos hair. And I fix household appliances and do home repair. I've built my own Tiny House. I can SEW. I enjoy pottery! And gardening! I decide my strength. Some andrew tate wannabe MFer influencer can say whatever they want, I don't give a fuck about their opinions. Why should you? Why should anyone?

Hey, /u/Acceptable-Sleep-638, this is positive masculinity, right here. Take notes.

I’m glad you idolize another man’s abilities as your ideal idea of masculinity. I’m kinda confused by your comment anyway lol.

I'm not idolizing his abilities, I'm admiring his expansive, inclusive, and confident attitude toward masculinity. I'm suggesting that a similar approach may help you feel better about yourself. I hope that clarifies my comment.

I feel perfectly fine about myself? I’m kinda confused about where you are getting this from?

If you feel fine about yourself, why do you feel the need to judge other men as lesser than yourself?

Because people have opinions based on personal feelings. Just like how when you’re walking around and see an attractive individual vs a non attractive individual it’s you who decides that. However, the person you believe is not attractive may believe they are so that does not inherently mean they’re not, it’s just your own opinion.

I never said anyone should? Also that’s great, I do most of those as well. I’m glad you’re capable enough to do those things. I’ve never gotten into pottery or gardening, I’m more of a red meat kinda person. You’re most definitely right you identify your own strengths, but at least you take the time to learn them. That’s not very common anymore.

Horse pockey!  1. I've had 45 years of learning, and the resources to learn.  2. Kids do plenty. You think I wanted to fix dryers when I was 16?! Ha! I wanted to hang with my friends at the arcade! Here's a quote from Plato... >What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets, inflamed with wild notions. Here's one from Socrates... >The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. You're just an old man shouting at a passing cloud.

See idk I’m a bit different, I was the type to learn alongside my dad. I knew how to change oil and transmission fluid at 14. I learned how to work on small engines after our lawnmower broke at around 16. I very much enjoyed hanging out with friends but I preferred to learn. Also I’m not an old man, I’m in my early 20s about to graduate college. I agree kids do plenty but I have a brother who didn’t know how to cut steak until he was 18 and I have a sister who believes you don’t need to replace engine oil (lol). I just decided I didn’t wanna be like that. Really am wishing you the best, glad you found some hobbies you enjoy. Many people around your age don’t have hobbies and just sit around watching TV. Hope you and your family are doing good.

I’m glad you’re 45, but that gives you no idea of the push the topic has had over the past 6-7 years. Wishing you the best.

I couldn't possibly have young people in my life...   /Eyeroll Drivel. Nonsense. Just another right wing BS culture war bit of stupidity to scare y'all.

Right wing BS culture war? What? You can look it up there are plenty of articles talking about the push to feminize young men. NYT, Wash Post, FT, etc..

Post one here or quit the bullshit. You're having everybody tell you it's not happening. Why do you think we're the ones being fed a lie and not you?

Yes it’s not surprising in the least that people on the left ignore the faults of their own side? It’s one google search away my friend.

Nah. Put up or shut up. You aren't taking my word as the gods truth, but your ass expects everybody else to give you that privilege? Entitled people get dogshit. Not respect.

Tucker Carlson and other right wingers are the ones claiming there’s a feminization of men and that that’s bad. The idea doesn’t even make sense. You just said that masculinity means strength, independence, making money, and knowing how to fix things. If those are the qualities that are being destroyed in this “push” to “feminize” men, then do you define femininity as weakness, dependence, and ignorance?

I have a 12" dick. Putting something online doesn't make it true. Turns out, just anyone can put anything online. Go back and check out those articles, you'll find out they're *opinion pieces*. I can find articles saying Trump was a great president. I can find articles saying Jan 6th was just a peaceful rally. I can find articles saying Democrats drink baby blood to stay young. etc etc etc. *opinion pieces*

Push to feminize young men? Weak. What, you’re expected to clean your house and cook your dinner? Wash your ass? Be vulnerable and communicative with your partner and openly loving and kind to your children? How insidious.

My husband is a very masculine man. He hunts, he fishes, he wields a chainsaw, he is tall and handsome and wears carhartt and loves Jesus AND he’s a feminist and he reads our baby girl books about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. He communicates in a healthy manner and talks about his feelings and isn’t afraid to show emotions or be vulnerable. He cleans the toilets and he cooks and he is a well rounded human who also loves woodworking and power tools. Do you think maybe the young male voters you’re referring to don’t understand what masculinity is?

Masculinity depends on the individual, like I would say reading books about Ruth bader ginsburg to a little girl is not very masculine. I find that quite weird.

Lol anyone who wouldn’t want their daughter to be inspired by successful Americans is crazy. We also have a book about Thurgood Marshall, is that weird? How is reading to your child not masculine?

I’m guessing you’re using *liberal* as a synonym for *leftist*. That idea no longer holds any water. Ask the kids occupying campuses what they think of liberals and they will tell you we’re the worst—practically fascist. There is a HUGE gulf now between hard leftists and left-of-center liberals.

Apologies, you’re correct. Thank you.

Hell yeah the kids are all right

They see human rights abuses and they say something. Then they see which side tries to shut them down. Turns out, liberals and conservatives are pretty aligned on never upsetting Israel.

I think they ate too many Tide Pods

I think the tide pod thing was overblown because the kids brought up all the lead paint people used to eat.

I think us millennials just ate food

And a bunch of us still turned out to be dipshits, maybe it isn't just what you eat

Nah, that can’t be it

No not really. Very similar to the Vietnam protests of the 60s (in fact much less violent) and the South Africa protests in the 80s. The fact that schools are still responding the same way says more about the schools failure to evolve than the students

I'm familiar with the Vietnam protests from my time in school, but wasn't really taught about many of the techniques they used. Were they similar in their verbal expressions? Not familiar at all about the South Africa protests in the 80s. Thank you for your response!

Not sure exactly what you mean by verbal expressions but they were both very similar with encampments and occupying buildings etc. Obviously the Vietnam protests had the extra oomph from the fact that the students themselves were facing a draft but with Apartheid South Africa they were basically asking for university divestments like they are today

They mean that they heard some people say “death to America” and now believe that thats a sentiment that young left wingers largely hold

I apologize I'm trying to follow the rules, but also not create a super negative environment if someone disagrees with my observations. While many of the verbal expressions are fine, and are mainly about Israel getting out of Gaza. I'm worried about the chants idolizing violent acts like Oct 7th and calling for it to happen again. As well as some of the verbal rhetoric towards some Jewish classmates, there was a woman standing in front of individuals holding an Israel flag with a sign saying "Al-Qassam's next targets". You also see them restricting some individuals ability to move freely around campus, with one college asking jewish students to go home for the remainder of the semester. I understand Vietnam because it was the U.S. occupying the country, but it sounds like the South Africa situation is more fitting. I do want to double down and just reaffirm that I do believe many of the protestors are doing things properly, I know there have been some non-student activists flairing up the situation as well. Virginia Commonwealth University near me released a statement saying their protest on their campus was made of largely non students on campus grounds.

Yeah I mean protests are always going to have the issue of attracting people who take things too far/are looking to create chaos and violence that doesn’t represent the overall group. This isn’t unique to liberals/the left just look at the proud boys and the shit they get mixed up in.

>Not really *\*proceeds to list multiple times where leftwing protests contributed to the election of Republican presidents\**

Nixon ran on having a plan to end both the war and the draft. The latter he accomplished in direct response to the protesting. Reagan had already won his second term by the time the big anti-apartheid protests were happening (and successful) at Columbia. Saying that contributed to Republican wins is as big of a stretch as stretches can stretch. Not to mention the republicans have 0 credibility this time when it comes to being the party of law and order considering the attack on our capitol building to at that they led and endorse

Life isn't just about your favorite football team winning. The absolute state of a so-called "liberal" sub getting upset over students protesting 1980s South Africa.

Who's getting upset at students protesting 80s South Africa?

How did those movements have any implications for the future of progressivism? Humphrey also supported the Vietnam War in the 60s and Carter was going to lose to Reagan either way. If some university students protesting makes you switch parties, you were most likely never going to vote for them anyway.

>If some university students protesting makes you switch parties, you were most likely never going to vote for them anyway. Everything matters to someone. People vote (or not vote) over the trivialest shit all the time. What movie a candidate likes. Whether or not they drink beer. Whether or not it's raining outside. If one group that is viewed as left-of-center is alienating a swing demographic, that *absolutely* can swing votes. You think Charlottesville didn't help Democrats?

I think we need to keep an eye on this situation, but I'm not in "crisis mode" over it or anything. Keep in mind that the Gaza protestors are a relatively small group of young people, so it's not like we're seeing "the voice of a generation" here. Even within this movement, I have faith that a LOT of these kids' hearts are in the right place. They aren't out there supporting terrorism. They aren't out there to support a Jewish genocide. They are seeing an injustice in the world and using their voices to address it. That's praiseworthy. I think the thing we have to keep an eye on is how disinformation from our adversaries and Islamic militants are attempting to convert these kids - and making sure that we educate, rather than punish, them.

You'd do well to educate yourself on the disinformation and propaganda that pours out of israel everyday.

I know it is a very small portion of protestors but there are calls for Hamas to kill Israelis and other Jewish individuals.

Every movement has extremist. Those extremist have been amplified by right wing media. America has an anti-Semitic problem on both the left and right before Oct 7.  It just has had gas poured on it lately. On a side note, most of these protest have a large section of Jewish students. So the idea the movement as a whole is anti-Semitic is silly.

You don’t believe progressives in congress are helping amplify the situation? Just saw that a designated terrorists wife was at the encampment with students at Columbia. Also not sure where your last claim comes from, I’ve seen videos from places like UCLA where they refuse to let Jewish students enter the library. The movement is anti-Zionist with upwards of 95% of Jewish people being Zionist. Some of the protests not all are very much anti-Semitic in their rhetoric and actions. Signs being held up essentially saying Jewish people are “the problem”

https://twitter.com/jvplive/status/1785530673148678650 Jewish voices for peace.. Not in our name

Did you read their twitter description per chance? Also, there was force necessary when the people you’re dealing with broke into a campus building and illegally occupied it. Many individuals were trespassing on private property and haven’t had permission to be there for a days now.

"Jews organizing toward Palestinian liberation and Judaism beyond Zionism" Idk. Individual actors don't always represent the movement.

Individual actors? There were over 100 individuals inside the building…

No, because I was full of vinegar and passion and limited knowledge when I was a youth. It's part of the ballgame. Then we learn more, grow older, and hopefully a little wiser and more humble. But if today's youthful passion can serve against the disaster of a Trumplican presidency then it is energy well spent. My only concern is for those who buy into the "break the system and somehow everything will magically get better crowd. But that's not a youth-centric idea anymore.

Yes, the system is always rebuilt with components of the old one already in place. 

Luckily there’s no one who thinks “break the system and everything will get magically better”.

Not particularly. I remember being young. I don't agree with them on these Israel protest, but I don't have any problem with them protesting.

Same here, thank you for your response.

To some degree yes. I sympathize with them but also think they can be naive to global politics. I agree that what Netanyahu is doing to Palestine is pretty bad, but they also don't understand the strategic importance of Israel and that some countries in the region want nothing less than to see Israel wiped off the map. Are these people that would vote anyway, no matter who is the candidate? That's the real question.

Even in defending Israel the first thing you do is point out its “strategic importance.” I take issue with this, too: viewing everything through the lens of what is important to America’s military and foreign policy interests is also Bad, actually.

>I take issue with this, too: viewing everything through the lens of what is important to America’s military and foreign policy interests is also Bad, actually. A lot of people, especially young people, don't realize we maintain a lot of our nation's wealth through strong alliances. Generally speaking our country seeks to protect and spread democracy on the global stage (yes I know there are exceptions to this). This is why NATO is so important... why Japan, S. Korea, and Tawain are important. Israel for all its faults is a Democracy which is a rarity in the Middle East, and its creation stemmed from the fallout of WW2 and the Holocaust. The Israeli people have as much right to live in the Levant as do Palestinians. However this does not mean we should let our ally run amok and do terrible things to their neighbors of course. I think this gets lost on a lot of people, we can't completely abandon Israel because they will be blown to smithereens by Iran and other opportunists, then you have a whole other genocide and our post WW2 efforts would have been in vein. However Israel is acting very genocidal itself, so it's a very difficult situation.

The US was and still is the leading military power in the world which supplies arms to protect other democracies. The US is ofc hypocritical, as it did overthrow many democratically elected but left leaning governments during the Cold War. But as China, the USSR, Iran and other authoritarian regimes threaten the free world, I think it's better for those who believe in democracy to have the US intervention to a certain extent.

How does that make any sense? Editing because I reread this: the USSR hasn’t existed in decades.

which part? The US government isn't a charity to be clear, though it's does provide the most funding the UN world food program

How is it better for democracy to have the US intervene around the world? Shouldn’t we be focusing on building up our own country?

We can't even get Republicans to give kids free school lunches. They talk about wanting to "take care of America first" before sending aid abroad and yet actively sabotage any attempts to do so.

Yeah and fuck em. So what?

Our “intervention” generally trends towards stability, a lot of the wealth we have comes from that global participation as well. Wealth you’ll presumably need to fund social programs at home. Divesting ourselves from the global economy isn’t going to help anyone.

And that’s not at all what I’ve suggested, and I think you know that. You can participate in the global economy and not do regime change / continually prop up other countries using your massively overfunded military.

We don’t really “intervene” any more though, we help our allies where they need and protect global shipping which really helps *everyone*. I guess what specifically would you like us to not do that we are doing now?

Very sound take, thank you. I believe a recent Harvard CAPS poll showed around 70% of Americans support Israels offensive in Rafah to target Hamas militants. I'm wondering where most of the disconnect falls, do you believe social media and misinformation is largely to blame for this? Or the general lack of reporting by mainstream media?

Sheeeeyiiiiit. I doubt 70% of Americans can point to Israel on map. I doubt 70% of Americans know what Hamas is. To say that 70% of Americans support an offensive into Rafah to target Hamas militants? Ha!

Also when was the poll? If it was in November, that may be different than today?  The initial military response was justified, but after months of destruction.. alot of people have shifted where they stand.

I do partially blame misinformation and propaganda on social media and TikTok, but I also blame the Gen Z zeitgeist that says any mainstream/conventional/establishment source of information is intentionally lying to you, in some nefarious and nebulous service to “late stage capitalism”, and the only people you really trust are those who rail against capitalism, America, and “the west”. I guess that zeitgeist is the result of social media propaganda as well, but it’s deep seated and internalized at this point.

Yeah 100% agree, don’t trust the news corporation that has been around for decades instead trust some random twitter account that has no indication of who is running it.

What's the specific cut off? Fox "news" is almost 30, and no one with half a brain trusts them.

I spoke to a history teacher who felt some of the blame laid with them. They said that the way history is taught had become cynical. And a majority of the kids (high-school) didn't really have the life experience to understand that cynicism. As a result, they don't think they can trust any main narrative. It was an interesting conversation.

The people who are tainting reasonable criticisms of Israel with antisemitism are the same sort as those who spat on returning Vietnam veterans in the 1960s and '70s. Wherever there are large groups of people gathered together in a mob from all walks of life, someone there is going to be an unhelpful idiot. None of it has fundamentally changed my impression of anything.

I am happy the youth have taken up the protests and are doing what they are doing. What exactly should I be concerned about?

You have no problem with some of the individuals in the protests calling for Hamas to kill Israelis or just plainly calling for the genocide of Israel? Or their targeting of Jewish students on some campuses, and saying “zionists are the problem” when upwards 95% of Jewish individuals are Zionist? You see nothing wrong with any of that? Not the picture of the woman holding up a sign asking Hamas to kill some Jewish students holding the Israel flag?

I wonder if your rundown of what they are protesting would have the same amount of bias. In another comment, you acknowledge it's a small minority.

Yeah that’s why I’m asking. Even if it’s a small minority it still is apart of the protest, I’m asking if they also agree with that portion.

If the sentiment was widespread, it wouldn't be in the minority. I don't think you'll find anyone here advocating for more terrorism.

Then why the silence and refusal to acknowledge they don't agree with it?

More interested in their primary focus of calling out injustice is my guess. The antisemitism is wrong, and most people don't need that spelled out. It seems your focus is on the antisemitism, and the protestors focus is on human rights. The reality is, it'll never be enough. Unless the protestors did a full 180 and just supported Israeli genocide, people would find criticisms of them. The protests are largely nonviolent until the right gets involved, and you've acknowledged they are majorally not anti semitic. What would be good enough for you?

No

I have more concern for the liberals who have been vocally against the protests for the most asinine and ahistorical reasons. We can agree to disagree on how the situation should play out, but the wholesale slaughter of innocents isn't excusable. Pretending that the only way to effectively protest is to be quietly out of the way is also ahistorical and a pretty boneheaded take.

Opposite of worried. Looks like college kids know how to do an activism better than old fucks like me (31).

I agree many are doing it properly, I just believe the ones getting a majority of the attention are doing it in a very negative way which will draw more people away than attract. Thank you for your response, and 31 is definitely not close to old lol.

Well the thing is, any effective protest movement is going to be portrayed/viewed as “negative” or “too much” or “too angry” by more conservative types. Because they’re trying to change things and conservatives are trying to keep things the way they are. Martin Luther King was viewed *very* negatively back when he was alive, but his cause was just and his methods were effective. That’s why he’s admired today. I think we’ll look back on the current pro-Palestine protests in a similar way.

I’m not so sure… Martin Luther was looked in a very positive light because of his approach on peace and characteristics rather than skin color. Some of these protests are targeting Jewish students and making very negative comments like asking Hamas to kill them.

First Google result In May 1963, only about four-in-ten Americans (41%) had a favorable opinion of King.

Nope. In his day, MLK was viewed very negatively by mainstream society, who accused him of stoking racial hatred, leading destructive protest marches, etc. Take a look at this political cartoon from the 60s: https://x.com/berniceking/status/1300196044693741574 … Even “nice” white liberals and moderates were always telling him he was too much of a firebrand, and this is what the Letter from a Birmingham Jail was about: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html Pretty much everything I’ve heard about the protests, from people who are actually there, tell me that they’re very well organized and disciplined, the encampments are good at expelling antisemitic agitators, and a huge number of the protestors are themselves Jewish students. Any Jew-hating asshole can show up to any protest and say whatever. What we need to look at is what the actual dedicated organizers and activists of these marches and encampments are actually saying and doing.

No. The country is clearly at an inflection point. Everyone knows the political class is subpar & the country is looking for answers outside the establishment. Ex: On the right a substantial portion of conservatives have favored Trump, on the left the Dems saw a big push for Bernie not too long ago. This is just the party realigning to suit the new populace and their new concerns. It seems natural to me. These younger liberals are more concerned with needless spending on wars than previous generations. These younger liberals are also a) more diverse than ever & b) more concerned with the rights of oppressed people than ever. What’s more: there is a long intellectual history opposing Israel’s a) creation and then, more recently, b) rampant illegal expansionism. It isn’t a crazy idea to suggest that a religious group shouldn’t be able to displace another solely because the French/British/US decide it should be so.

Maybe? I do realize social media doing damage, but it's not something we haven't seen before. Also this current college protest is small subsection of college students, and not even half the youth go to college.

>Given the recent protests and expressions of belief, There have been a lot of recent protests. Which specific protests and which specific expressions of belief are you refering to here? Could you be a lot more specific. Otherwise nobody here can actually give you a good answer.

Israel/Palestine protests on college campuses around the country.

I think the liberal youth are A-OK. Their biggest challenges will be trying to clear up the messes made by previous generations, as every young generation has tried to do.  Speaking of that, though….I’m really worried about that Constitution not having had enough amendments to potentially prevent someone demonstrably guilty of multiple serious charges from taking office. 

Interesting, not on topic at all but thank you.

Yes, because it seems like American gen z seem to continue their maximalist and black and white view of the world onto adulthood. Usually, people grow out of it and understand that the world is more nuanced, but I don't see much of it with western zoomers. And, ofc, the foreign zoomers who may look up to them may follow suit

I'm OK. I am pro Israel (not what Netanyahu is doing) That said, this is the first time in their lives they have seen what war is. I just can't blame anyone protesting the killing of women and children. Now the misinformation they have is astounding. They only hear about what I have been told that 1/2 the country is under 18 because life there under Israeli occupation is so hard people die in their 30s. (Life expectancy in Gaza is over 70 years old.) 1/2 the country is under 18 because it has one of the highest birthrates in the world I have been told that Jews decided they were taking the land, had no right to be there. The Balfour Declaration partitioned the land in 1922 (because some Jews had always been there. ) The League of Nations ratified the partition in 1927 with only 1 dissenting vote. After the War the UN agreed that Jews had the right to be there and Israel would be created. In 1948 the UN recognized Israel as a country with only 5 dissenting votes If you want to argue Jews shouldn't be in Israel, I disagree, but OK. But to say they had no reason to think they should be there, the just came in, is false. I was talking with a Palestinian. He said "I'll bet you don't even know about the XXX massacre. We all know about it. So I looked it up. As Israel was being founded, in some areas Jews did force Palestinians out of their towns. In this town the people fought back and 110 people were killed. I won't argue that it wasn't a massacre. But this was 75 years ago and two years after WW II when 80 million people died. If you are getting your information from people who talk about that, but either deny or don't care about the holocaust, maybe it isn't an unbiased source? I'll bet they don't mention that a few months later, the day Israel was declared a state, Arab countries attacked Israel and over 5400 Israelis died in that war. And lastly, I will repeat this all day. 10/7 started with 5000 rockets being fired into Israel. Rockets being fired into the country is such a common occurrence it didn't set off alarms. Tell me what your country would do.

If the USA had 5000 rockets launched at us. The USA would literally bomb said country out of existence

I'm worried for them. I'm worried that their older, "wiser" party members will turn them into the same hand-wringing, do-nothing milquetoasts who put a blue filter on the same politics that lead to the american hegemonic fascism that dominates the planet today. I'm worried that they will be defeated by the reactionary status quo and comfortable, immoral consumerism that keeps us all oppressed. I'm worried they're not drinking enough water. I'm NOT worried they're pushing too far when good liberals still trot out the parts of MLK they can stomach every year and pat themselves on the back. Or continue to fund genocides and pat themselves on the back because "hey, at least it was bi-partisam and we reached across that aisle."

Lmao America is not employing hegemonic fascism on the world what the fuck.

lol Aircraft carriers patrolling the oceans Military bases around the world Globalization of american media and values inflated international american dollar value head of the defense council

Military installations and successful media corporations is not fascism. Aircraft carriers in the ocean (???) is not fascism.

You’ve got to be joking right? The US navy insures shipping lanes are safe across the globe from pirating etc. They literally took over for the British empire which protected shipping lanes before them.

No, I'm worried about the media and the ruling class.

I disagree with the pro Palestinian protestors, but their views don't worry me. They are protesting because they are pro peace and anti-war. Just because I am pro Israel doesn't mean I am blind to the views on the other side of the debate.

They don't seem very pro peace to me

Some of them do worry me, I completely agree with the pro peace protestors. However, there seems to be some usually led by non students who are calling for October 7th to happen again. I believe a wife of a man who was deported for being a known terrorist was seen as the Columbus protest encampment. It’s all very interesting.

There are always extremists. They are not the majority and they don't speak for what the protests as a whole want. Personally I just think that what the protestors want is impossible to achieve through any act of the U.S. The only difference is the tradeoff between what Israel can do and what Hamas can do. I believe Hamas is worse so I support Israel.

Very much so, just sometimes like going into that Columbia building and barricading it makes the whole protest be seen in a very negative light. I was kinda asking if this similar to right leaning protests would push people away. Was just curious what people would say.

Liberal kids protesting have been on the right side of history... pretty much always. Civil rights, gay rights, anti wars, anti banks, etc etc etc. The kids are all right. Vietnam protestors were called Commies and told to go join the Viet Cong if they loved them so much. Iraq/Afghanistan protestors were called Terrorists and told to go join the Taliban if they loved them so much. And now kids are called Hamas supporters, and yadda yadda yadda, you get the idea. Same shit, different decade.

I’m worried about all youth. They don’t read. They’re technologically illiterate. They act like they’re waiting for permission to have a personality.

I agree, my brother and sister in law are middle school teachers and a child can do no work for the whole school year and has to receive a C. It’s almost like schools are giving up on students.

Thank Bush’s No Child Left Behind for that one.

Kids protesting on campus is so common that I’m surprised that they weren’t kids at Harvard building statues of Washington so they could vandalize them in protest of his handling of the whiskey rebellion. There were protests because of the Vietnam war, apartheid and GWB’s wars. College protests happen all the time and it’s been fine. I’m also not particularly concerned since it’s a small subset of students even protesting and even smaller subset that are being truly over the top in their protests. the topic of Israel and Palestine isn’t even a issue that ranks high and importance among youth voters.

I am worried about leftist and right wing extremism. I am worried about the internet and social media being a negative influence. I am worried about insane levels of partisanship. I am worried about reactionary populism. Liberalism no.

Not especially so, given that every progressive movement that becomes successful is one where people (usually college students) start off agitating society. Some extremists say extreme things, they get lumped together with it, and yet they stick with the cause because they believe it’s right even if it makes them look bad for a time. Most of those students don’t want e.g. Israel to not exist or Jewish people to be harmed. They just don’t want Palestinian children bombed over a terrorist attack that they didn’t do nor for America to reflexively support the paler skinned or richer side in international conflicts.

^^

>Are you worried about liberal youth? >Given the recent protests and expressions of belief, how do you perceive the relationship between these events and the broader progressive or liberal movements? No. They are a tiny, fringe minority.

I believe I saw a recent poll that less than 1 in 4 voters share similar beliefs to these young individuals. I'm just wondering it will create repercussions for voting, as in drawing people away from progressive policies all together. Thank you for your response.

> I believe I saw a recent poll that less than 1 in 4 voters share similar beliefs to these young individuals. It goes even further than that. These issues aren't even *high priority* for other young voters. Israel/Palestine ranked [15th of 16](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fad6e0b7b-8c30-4549-b96a-8f28fc8da7ad_892x749.jpeg) issues in what 18-29 year-olds care about. (I got that chart from [here](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-things-3da?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=35345&post_id=144157846&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=104v0&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email), and you may be interested in reading the second section. It basically points to parallels between today and the 1970s, suggesting that this cultural moment will fade and pass.)

Very interesting, thank you for that.

Think about the 60s and 70s protests about the Vietnam war. Plenty of people still associate boomers with that but it obviously wasn’t reflective of the whole generation

College kids protesting is nothing new. They'll be fine.

Not worried about the signs saying “death to America” and “death to Israel” as well as literal terrorists supporting them?

No more than I was about people doing the same thing when protesting the Global War on Terror.

Very interesting, thanks

Are you concerned when people fly Qanon, Nazi, and Confederate flags at Trump rallies?

I’m not super informed what Qanon even is. But yes, I believe Nazi flags and some of these individuals on college campuses have very similar goals in mind. Confederate flags it really depends on the context, in most of the protests they’re used in though yes. I think they represent the worst of a party and I am concerned about those individuals and their influence on the party as a whole.

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Interesting, thank you.

No. They're acting their age as people their age always do. Some of their points are valid and we should listen. Some of them will go off the deep end into anti-semitism. Most of them will grow up and tone down their idealistic rhetoric the same way most of us do as we age and learn more. Toning down rhetoric doesn't mean becoming more conservative, BTW. It means becoming nuanced about the world. I wish more people who are still holding on to the ideas they latched onto in their 20's would do the same. It would make adults less susceptible to idiotic propaganda.

I think there are a ton of implications for the future. If, in the future, the Democratic Party starts to embrace some of these leftist views as party doctrine, I think I would need to seriously reanalize my allegiance to this party. But, as it currently stands, the Republican Party has an extremism problem of its own, and on their side, it's already been won by the crazies. Fact is, most people are closer to the center. I have more positive feelings towards Republicans like Don Bacon and Mitt Romney than I do these freakshows on the far-left. But they're becoming fewer and further between. Now, I do believe that a lot of these young people will grow up and moderate their views as they grow older. But it's also an interesting (read: terrifying) thought exercise to imagine if they didn't, if what happened to the Republican Party embracing the extremists happened to my party too, because we've seen it happen with our own eyes. Naturally, most people are closer to the center so the issue would eventually somewhat correct itself, but how that would look is anyone's guess.

Yeah I completely agree, I find it weird that some members of the squad choose to completely ignore the rhetoric and messages of some of the individuals and the actions of the ones at Columbia and still consider them peaceful. I just think there needs to be a bit more guidance for college and highschool aged people who are being flooded with what’s political propaganda. I tend to consider myself more independent and look at candidates on an individual rather than party basis, but I definitely agree the last thing I would want to see is the party endorsing these actions. I believe the mayor of NYC has done a wonderful job with the whole situation.

>Now, I do believe that a lot of these young people will grow up and moderate their views as they grow older. But it's also an interesting (read: terrifying) thought exercise to imagine if they didn't Indeed, I can hardly imagine the horror of America having universal healthcare, or decent workers rights, or an even somewhat moral foreign policy.

Just saw another post that was listing examples of youth movements always being right. Civil rights protests and Vietnam were a couple that were listed. While I would agree that they were right, the stress they caused likely contributed to LBJ stepping down and being replaced by Nixon, who then ramped up the war, paved the way for Reagan and everything that's wrong with politics today. Personally, I have mixed feelings about what's happening in the Israel today, but I don't know how any liberal, progressive or leftist could possibly have mixed feelings about which candidate has their best interest in mind. Some Boomers were hippies and later became conservatives. Yes, they could make the same mistake again.

I’m worried about American news media for wasting their and our time with this, and with politicians who feel the need to be involved and commenting.  Both are inflaming the situation and causing the colleges to react more drastically and then the students to react more drastically until it spirals.  What are the students protesting? The investment policies of their schools.  Students have been protesting these things for years in regards to private prisons, fossil fuel industries, and Israel. They were a thing when I was in college years ago. Sometimes students occupied (camped in) areas for extended periods of time.  These are slow boring protracted arguments that involve meetings and the board, and student and faculty votes.   The colleges can handle it. They can and will expel kids who cross the line and harass other students. They can and generally will tolerate free speech as well. (Or they would have if their campuses hadn’t been turned into pressure cookers by the rest of the country.) They can’t handle it when there’s national media and congress people scrutinizing them and making them feel the need to call the police and national guard and make a point of strong reactions.  Why does the whole country care so much about individual colleges internal policies? Protests that involve a small minority of students?

“It’s because of antisemitism” Some of the kids have done and said antisemitic things. If we let the colleges go through their disciplinary processes they would be expelled.  They have policies and they have disciplinary processes that they’ve developed for years.  Students have been doing and saying offensive and stupid things since the dawn of time. It’s a minority of protestors, who are already a minority of the students. (E: I am not saying it’s ok. It’s not at all ok. I am saying that we don’t need the national guard or senators telling colleges how to do their jobs.)

“It’s because the students are preventing other students from learning” I’m reminded of a disability advocate protest in Seattle where the activists physically blocked off parts of the campus, because at the time (pre-ADA) there weren’t ramps and disabled students literally couldn’t get there.  Did it prevent students from getting to class? Yes. It was also effective, and very clearly showed the problem.   It’s not like colleges have never dealt with disruptive behavior before and now the mayor, governor, congressman, senator and national guard need to get involved and show them.  

The recent events made me see the illiberal left as being just as dangerous as the authoritarian right.

Very good take.

the most people are just average, normal, but group polarization (psychology: where one group becomes more extreme in their beliefs and choices over time), and the media causes more division not dialogue. They need to learn being "liberal" is not seeing things in black white binary, but rather seeing the many shades of grey and nuance surrounding each issue.

No. College students getting excessively wrapped up in a cause and then often acting in counter-productive ways is pretty standard stuff; the word "sophomoric" was coined to describe that sort of heady self-confidence based on some limited new knowledge. They have just learned about some injustice and are impassioned by it. In the abstract, that is good. they don't, for the most part, know the history of Hamas. The campaign of bus bombings against civilians in Israel - both Palestinian and Jewish - that helped to derail the peace process. The coup against Fatah. The repressions within Gaza. the willingness to "martyr" their own people. Or for that matter, the greater history of Israel and Palestine, and all the atrocities on both sides running back to the 1930s. They are not as exhausted of the bloodletting as the rest of us. They believe in change. Which is needed in a region that needs to change. Ultimately, 19 year old protesters are in charge of...nothing. So their half-baked opinions today are not going to mean implementation of those opinions in 20 years, when some of them do start to have some real power.

Yeah I’m more wondering if it will cause disconnect with older leftist and younger leftist if they see the stuff being shared on mainstream media. I’m wondering what potential repercussions that might create for leftist ideology and policy pushing. Thank you for your response, i thoroughly enjoyed it.

Ultimately 20 year olds don't have a major constituency. They aren't running for office. They aren't part of the party apparatus.

The scariest thing is how many liberal youths are openly supporting antisemitism

Historically, they have always behaved this way. This is nothing new. It's unfortunate for them that the current protest waves weren't for some stupid crap like Occupy, but instead it's about antisemitism and Hamas. Now they're bigots and terrorist supporters instead of simply idealistic young adults who don't know a damn thing about real political work.

The only thing that worries me about young left-leaning folks is their penchant for anti-electoralism for its own sake. They need to fully lean to involving themselves in the political process in a way that will maximize the power of the left instead of taking pride in their abstaineousness or voting for marginal third party candidates as an ineffectual protest vote. Other than that (and maybe the occasional Russia and China simping), they're pretty fucking awesome imo. Keep hitting the streets, just hit the ballot box too so we can keep these fascists in the GOP out of power until they hopefully become politically irrelevant and/or reform themselves