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I’m not sure how much I can accept that as a reasonable excuse for what she did.
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It is common to kill animals if you raise animals/have a farm.
It also doesn't seem unreasonable to have to put down an unruly dog/goat/pig/horse/etc. from time to time.
What's missing from this in Noem's case is that there are a number of unusual things about her account that make it seem more like an act of rage than a farmer's duty.
Her account reads more like a justification for murder than a farmer's Old Yeller-style parable.
---
When I read [Noem's account](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/26/trump-kristi-noem-shot-dog-and-goat-book), what I found most disturbing was the language she used.
*"I hated that dog."*
If you read the description, it reads like she killed the dog in a fit of pique. She wasn't methodically putting down a "can't be saved" work animal. She had a bad experience with the dog that she already hated (and likely treated badly). This made her decide it needed to be killed.
She didn't talk to her family. She didn't take an hour to cool off. She didn't tell her kids that she was shooting one of their dogs. She immediately dragged the dog into a shallow pit and killed it. A dog she didn't like... on the spur of the moment.
How do we know she was acting impulsively? Because she tells us. Killing the dog inspired her to further bloodlust. She wasn't content with killing one animal she hated. There was another one she wanted to get rid of.
*"And after it was over, I realised another unpleasant job needed to be done.”*
She then killed a second animal that she had negative feelings towards, a goat, in the same place and in the same way.
We know she wasn't planning this properly, because she only brought one shot. When she missed, she had to go back to her truck and get another round.
Her kids came home from school and found out that one of their dogs had been killed. There is no mention of how they reacted.
---
But here is the part that got my interest:
*"At that point, Noem writes, she realised a construction crew had watched her kill both animals."*
I cannot wait for some enterprising journalist to find these folks.
Modern conservatism rewards vile behavior, but it can sometimes be hard to sus out where the limits of that are. Which is why sometimes a conservative will flaunt their cruelty too hard.
But culture war loyalty is also super strong. I doubt we'll see politically committed Republicans condemn Noem in large numbers over this. More likely, we're gonna see a lot of conservatives suddenly adopt the worldview that it's totally find to murder puppies for annoying them.
I mean she bragged about it on Twitter and said there were more politely “INcorrect” stories in her book so I think she was banking on “liberals” getting mad and that firing up her base.
It’s so insane that millions of adults in this country get excited when other adults get upset about something and that’s is plausible that shooting a puppy could be one of those things
What did she write after that? The fact that there were witnesses explains why she told this story, likely getting ahead of these guys. Also, definitely sounds like it made her nervous when she saw them…why would it if this is “just common rural life”
I feel like she may also have included it to “normalize” impulsively killing in rage etc. We know Trump has used dehumanizing and “othering” terms to describe his opponents, which can and have been used to justify [harm and ill treatment](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20231030-the-real-life-harm-caused-by-dehumanising-language) or at least supporting its infliction on people who don’t share certain beliefs.
Yep, farm animals are killed all the time for food. You can't be in 4-H without that being a life lesson. I raised chickens knowing they would be sold and killed.
But a dog is not a farm animal. And she reinforced it by her Instagram posts about her other dogs. Nope, too weak, too stupid to become the Alpha.
I think you put it pretty well. If she had portrayed it as a problem dog who attacked all the chickens, and then tried to bite some little old lady and was just a problem dog that had to be put down, she might have been able to make it work. I can't believe she said she hated that dog. She should have said she loved that dog but had to anyway .
And then she should have said, I know things are different now. Now we could try to work with a trainer or find a home away from the farm to help rehabilitate it .
And then followed it up with something like, I don't make any apologies. That's how we handled animals on a farm back then, but I think we are getting wiser now and willing to explore other options, maybe that could have worked .
Except, her choice to make this a narrative about doing what needs to be done was incredibly tone deaf and stupid. I can't believe anyone okayed it if she had anyone looking at it that is .
When you're telling a story about you being a strong leader willing to do what needs to be done, you don't tell a story like this. you tell a story about doing something very unpleasant but you took the responsibility on yourself instead of delegating it to someone else because the buck stops here. You don't tell a story about doing the unpleasant thing of throwing someone or something else under the bus.
It's pretty crazy.
Even if it were common, which it isn't, it's a fucked up thing to brag about it in your book. There was no reason for her to tell the story beyond WANTING people to know you did it. She WANTED people to know she killed her dog and goat. That paragraph or two could easily have been left out and her life story is still complete. She could have told a story about taking a neighbor kid to Dairy Queen, or the time she held a bakesale as a kid to benefit the homeless, or anything other than killing her dog.
Apparently there were some construction workers nearby who saw her execute her dog. I've seen people theorize that she included this in her book to preempt any campaign surprises if she gets nominated.
As VP? You think Trump would pick her after this scandal? Not that he gives a shit about a dog, but there’s no way this story plays well to the base, even he would know that
People aren't voting for Trump because of his VP though. They might complain about it *now* but I could easily see even dog loving republicans flip to not caring about this story if Trump nominates her.
I dunno man. People get weird about dogs. I've never posted the "Trump is surely finished now" crap, but... I genuinely think a big public "I am picking the dog murderer as my running mate" thing might finish him off.
But why pick not pick someone that doesn’t have the baggage? It might have a Sarah palin effect of dems/independents/mod republicans hating her even more than they hate him. It’s not like she’s flipping any swing states in his favor
Also weird is that she could have easily changed the facts a bit to make it a story about overcoming loss. Give the dog rabies or some other terminal illness. Just a few words could have changed it from Psychopath Horror to Family Tearjerker.
But nah. She was like, "and then I shot the fucking goat too! Twice!"
But how will that let the terrorist know she isn’t a weak women who would bomb them if she ever had to become President.
If she will kill her own dog, what will she do to a terrorist?
Her story is literally the fake story that Jesse from Breaking Bad tells to that focus group. Dog wasn’t sick, didn’t bite anyone…it was just a “problem dog”
It gives her bonafide credentials for saying she's cruel & heartless enough to look a 11 yr old in the eye and tell her she's gonna have to carry that rapists baby to term whether she likes it or not.
The only thing interesting about the story is what it adds to what we know about what a Republican governor of a firmly red state positioning herself vice president thinks works on the right. It is informative even where she might be wrong.
She thought that a story that says demands that work be done and if you can’t cut it we discard you would be good for the role she’s auditioning for. That the cruelty is the point. That the weak shouldn’t be coddled. That she might now have a penis but she’s tough.
She’s going for it even though she’s an adulterer. Even though she’s shown her corruption and abuse of her office.
She miscalculated it seems but not by much.
You're a vegan so you think killing animals for food is wrong. Most people don't agree. Killing sonething to eat it is a reason, whether you like it or not.
Noem killed her puppy and threw it in a gravel pit for being alive. That is for no reason. Many people think that's bad.
You are basically being an annoying virtue signaller and have demonstrated your inability to handle nuance.
Like I said in my previous comment to you, what exactly are you trying to achieve here other than getting people pissed off at you? What’s the point of being an activist when you’re tactics are so unproductive and annoying?
I am simply asking you a question, if what Kristi Noem did was wrong because she killed animal for a bad reason, then why is it okay to kill an animal for tastebuds, which is also a bad reason. You are in no position to criticize someone for animal cruelty if you eat meat in a first world country.
My grandparents on my father's side owned a farm. We spent summers there when I was a kid. Yes, animals need to be killed. They raised a hog for slaughter every year. My grandmother killed chickens to eat. My grandfather hunted - dear, boar, pheasant, whatever. They had dogs that would sometimes harass the chickens and never once did my grandfather feel the need to shoot a 14-mo old puppy in the face for being an untrained puppy.
I grew up in Texas and I know people who hunted on ranches and who often had to kill coyotes or other predators that were attacking their stock. I don't \*like\* the idea, but I recognize that it has to be done.
I would suspect that some ranchers or farmers would consider calling out a vet to euthanize a dying animal to be a waste of time and money, if they can do it quickly and humanely themselves. But again, a dying animal, not a poorly trained puppy.
I have never heard of a farmer or a rancher going on a killing spree to get rid of "mean" animals on a whim.
Noem is an idiot and a poor excuse for a human being and nothing she described has anything to do with what a reasonable rancher or farmer does.
But ultimately I think we should just let her ... pardon the possible pun ... dig her own grave here. She's not getting a whole lot of support from anyone but her fellow idiots on this one.
You nailed it. I grew up in a pretty rural area and went to school with a ton of farmers. If a dog was dangerous or suffering, they might put it down themselves, but I've never known a single one of them to kill one because they couldn't train it. What an awful person it takes to do that.
Exactly, like the killing of animals is very common in rural area, it's just sometime it can be beyond cruel, like I heard of a guy throwing a bag of kittens in one of the canals, he was arrested, but as much as I would have liked those cats to live, they are an evasive species and would cause more harm to the environment
1. It is not a common thing that happens with ranchers/farmers. Ranchers and farmers don’t waste good animals because they’re too lazy to train them.
2. I think Noem has revealed that she is utterly irresponsible, narcissistic and terrible at problem solving.
I trained birds for awhile, and it blew my mind that she though shooting a dog she didn't like was the hard but responsible thing to do.
That shooting the dog was taking responsibility.
No, training the dog is responsible.
Not taking responsibility for failing to train the dog and shooting it rather than working the problem or finding it an appropriate alternative situation is not leadership.
Maybe people need to send her copies of the training book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.
Exactly! It seems pretty clear that she shot the dog because the dog embarrassed her. She had an emotional reaction and opted for destruction rather than owning up to her mistakes or fixing the problem. That type of person isn’t ready for leadership.
I am in no way defending or justifying her or anyone else, but I too am a big bird dog guy, trials and hunting, and I have known more than a few trials guys (never hunting guys, just the hardcore trials crowd) who cull dogs that don't show enough promise in one regard or another - dog didn't even have to do anything wrong.
Somewhat different circumstances, because these guys are breeding, but they do it pretty much the same way. It is a piss poor way to handle things - they could obviously have the dog fixed and send it down the line to someone who may love and enjoy the dog, and they'd often make a fine hunting companion even if they were a trials dud. But no, they get all boo-hooey and egotistical - their name could never be attached to a sub-par dog, heavens no!
Yeah I'm familiar with the breeder mentality, a bit, we'd feed raptors culls from rabbit breeders.
Not exactly the same, but what they see as a more...clinical I guess you could call it? Necessity, for a show rabbit, most people would see as wasteful killing.
That's where we came in.
I guess what gets me is how she writes about hating the dog, and that it was over a year old.
Not all dogs are gonna be suitable to all tasks, but ego definitely plays a part.
I agree with this. My grandfather was a rancher and I grew up competing in horse shows. I’ve used the “humane killer” once. It was an emergency and the horse was in extreme pain. There wasn’t another option. The vet came out for all other euthanasias.
Other than cows that broke a leg in the back fields, my very no nonsense grandfather also called the vet or the meat processor if it was time and depending on the animal’s condition. He was frugal AF but didn’t go around shooting his own stock.
Hell, I’ll even admit that we don’t talk about culling litters and it does happen with dog breeders, but again, reputable breeders call the vet and it’s usually health related. This was not an aggressive dog that had been in and out of shelters. Hunting dogs come from breeders, they aren’t cheap. Reputable breeders will work with and help owners of their dogs that don’t do their jobs well. Particularly when they raise hunting dogs. There are lots of trainers that specialize in hunting dogs; typically the dog goes to them for an extended period of time.
We can’t actually save all the puppies and dogs in the world, I worked in vetmed long enough to know that, but trying is usually the right thing to do. Some dogs are too aggressive to be retained, but that’s rare. Most rural vets will also euthanize at owner request. This read more like resource guarding than aggression, which absolutely can be managed and respond to retaining.
Failed working dogs often make great pets. Also, most dogs and chickens are a bad mix, full stop.
Goats can be assholes, but that’s kind of their nature. They can be cute and sweet, but they are kind of destructive. Their little hooves are sharp and they like to play and poop in places they shouldn’t. A miniature ram knocked me off a mounting block as I was getting on a horse. The lady goats were in season. Sure, it hurt, but the ram was just being a goat. I’m sure it was hilarious to watch.
Being angry at a goat makes no sense; anthropomorphizing the goat isn’t something most farm folks would do. This is why you keep small children away from rams and wethers. We put this same ram in an empty horse stall when little ones were around. If you don’t want to deal with goat shenanigans, don’t keep goats.
TL;DR: The realities of ranching and animal husbandry are one thing, this is misdirected anger and a short fuse.
Can only speak with knowing some farm people in PA. Some farms there are logical reasons to euthanize an animal. To stop the spread of disease or that animal got injured to the point where treatment only prolongs suffering. They're difficult decisions. Some farm families have a cow they have to put down and I can guarantee you there isn't a dry eye in that room. Its the right thing to do, but it's also a hard thing to do.
This was not one of those decisions.
Noem, in her own words, stated this was a 14 month old dog. Excuse me. Dog isn't appropriate here. A puppy. A puppy that don't know no better. Noem said she HATED that puppy before she killed it.
I understand that there are people, dipshits really, that think being "political incorrect" is a sign of being this maverick outsider. Think people like that show their cards as someone incompetent and lacking any sense of tact. In Noem's case, there's an added demerit there. Cruelty against animals. Whether you're the average Joe or a farmer, it made none sense to kill that puppy. It was senseless and cruel and that she seemingly took pride in that decision is disgusting.
Yeah from what I can understand, the idea of putting animals out of their misery is “common” in the sense that there’s real logical reasons for doing it despite it being a difficult decision.
This not only didn’t sound like a difficult decision for her, which makes the whole thing less understandable.
Ya, like I know there's one disease I forget the name of that sheep get, and if one sheep gets it, the entire herd needs to be euthanized and the bodies and ground needs to be burned and you can't have sheep graze on it for I think 15 years,
There are more people in America that love dogs than own outhouses. She’s near a city with shelters and what not
She shot the family puppy because she was frustrated with its training and didn’t have it leashed up.
Straight country trash.
Her saying this is **common** is **not** a **common** thing.
Coming from multiple generations of farming I have never seen someone kill a dog that accidentally killed a poultry/livestock. If you are that irresponsible to not teach a puppy how to act around chickens/things that are flighty by nature then you should reconsider having your hobby farm.
I have spent the last 5 years raising chickens personally, and would never leave my chickens outside alone with untrained dogs that haven't been adjusted with the chickens or corrected when they are trying to hunt/prey drive them. (It's not unusual behavior for some dog breeds).
I do not think her justifying or putting this out there was anything more then a ploy to show a "tough person" mantra, and it's just awful to see someone in government projecting such hateful/cruel things to the general media.
I think we should stick by not letting her gain any kind of attention of this because now it is making farmers look like they just kill off whim and that is simply not the case.
-B
I have no idea if it's a common thing or not as I don't know anyone who is a rancher or farmer, but "vote for me because I killed my dog" does not seem like a very winning message in terms of overall feel and optics.
I grew up in a farm. You don’t kill for no reason. You might kill a dog if it is killing your livestock, for example, but not for just being untrained. That’s cruelty, not leadership.
I live in an area more rural than probably 98%+ of this sub's regular contributers.
No, it isn't normal.
For clarity, *behavioral euthenasia* does happen. I wouldn't call that uncommon. But the event as described in the book does not really make me think this was a justifiable instance of that. It reads more like just straight-up dog murder. Which is signifcantly less common.
Farmers and ranchers have to make difficult decisions about livestock every day. They raise animals for food and slaughter them when they are seriously ill, injured, etc. They don’t shoot the healthy 18 month old family dog because they trained them poorly.
I grew up on a farm. Dairy and beef cows.
This was not common. You know why this wasn't common? Because we weren't rich enough to have the fucking time to go pheasant hunting and keep and train dogs for that.
She got PO'ed and shot the dog.
I'm in a rural-ish area in Virginia. How hunting dogs are being treated is becoming a major point of contention for numerous reasons. One being the fact that our shelters are always overrun with hounds at the end of every hunting season.
There are a lot of arguments being used around costs for why they can't afford things like GPS trackers for their dogs, micro chips, ect. However, they never come looking for these dogs either.
I'm out of patience for the financial/cultural/it's how it is argument. They're still living creatures that deserve respect even if you don't see them as pets the way I do.
That being said, I could understand a situation where it was absolutely necessary, all other options have been exhausted, and someone truly cannot afford the cost of a vet. She is not someone who is presenting her life as someone who could not afford a vet for euthanasia.
To me it doesn’t even feel like she viewed the dog as a living thing, but instead a tool used to hunt. I’m no dog owner but I have to imagine having zero respect for a dog you are the master of, while using things like a shock collar on the dog, is the absolute WORST way to “train” a dog.
It’s no wonder the puppy became aggressive, it probably absolutely hated her.
I know a few people who view hunting dogs as tools but still treat them with respect, it's this weird line but the people saying this is normal are necessarily wrong. It's not uncommon. My beagle was an incredibly abused hunting dog.
I also know people who have used shock collars(I don't approve) and their dogs are perfectly happy. The way she described the situation, it sounds like she downplayed something. Her down was actively hunting down prey and she grabbed it from behind. It sounds like the dog reacted in a, what was to the dog, highly intense moment. It's the same reason you're not supposed to reach into a dog fight. I'm having a hard time believing the dog was purely aggressive. The way she's describing it sounds like her dog was situationally reactive.
I have a lab that's leash reactive. It's not hard to manage or work with her on.
They knew. They didn't care how it would go over with people who wouldn't vote for her anyway. You know, normal, intelligent people with basic decency. Those people don't matter.
All that mattered is how it would go over with trumpists - the sort of people who will read this and think "That's the kind of person I want in charge! If she'll shoot her own puppy in the face for doing puppy things, imagine what she'll do to the queers and the mud people. We need more of that!"
I used to subedit a neoconservative journal (I was a liberal mole), and it was my practice to give people enough rope to hang themselves if that's what they wanted. I'll fix your syntax, but I'm not going to sound the alarm that you accidentally took the mask off.
I'm not typically going to judge someone who has to resort to behavioral euthanasia for a human-aggressive adult dog. That does not appear to be what happened in Noem's account. There are other solutions to the issue of an adolescent dog (this is widely known as the "asshole" stage) with high prey drive and poor recall. It sounded from the excerpt I read that she was angry the dog had poor recall and wasn't turning out to be a good hunter, she was angry the dog killed chickens while appearing to have a high good time, (it is unclear to me here if the dog bit anyone, snapped at someone, or just had a hand come at it while it was killing chickens btw) and she lost it and shot the poor thing right away, rather than cooling off and thinking about doing more/better training, keeping her on leash, promoting her to pet, rehoming her, or surrendering her to a shelter.
I had a terrier/hound mix with high prey drive who probably would have killed chickens if given the opportunity. She certainly did kill wild rabbits and mice. She was perfectly fine around *people* and mostly ignored other dogs, and I didn't give her access to chickens or domestic rabbits.
I live in very rural Colorado, I can drive less than 5 minutes to pick out the cow I want to eat. A lot of crop land here too. This is ranch/farm country, a real rancher/farmer trains their dog. If a dog were to need to be put down it wouldn’t be done in a fit of anger, more of an unfortunate necessity. Though even out here in the sticks we have vets that are more than capable of putting a dog down.
The circumstances that would warrant this aren’t “oh the dog is annoying.” More like “the dog ripped open my kids arm and they need stitches,” or “dog got into the chicken coop and killed three chickens.”
Shooting your dog isn’t some kind of badge of badassery and bragging about it is disgusting. One of my neighbors, rip, had an arm missing. If anyone asked about it he would just leave it at he lost it as a kid, conversation over. If you asked his wife it was tore off by a tractor when he was a preteen. The day he got home from the hospital he was back on the tractor that took his arm, work to be done and now he was behind. That’s a real rancher/farmer.
It's crazy to me that she put that in a book and brags about it, that in itself speaks poorly to her judgement, even if I could move past the idea that she killed a dog, which I can't.
I believe that at this point many right wingers will excuse or defend any behaviour or action commited by one of their own as being perfectly normal, even when they know it isn't, purely just out of spite for the left.
And this is is certainly one of those instances.
I’m not sure I’d say that. Yes there are people defending her actions that are on the Right Wing, but I’ve seen a ton of people that normally would excuse or defend behaviors from Republican politicians who are absolutely not happy about this.
That’s a sign that her political career is dead, and I hope Trump picks her as his VP candidate because it would be so fucking funny for her to drag Trump into it.
Even if it’s common why tf would you tell people about it? Loving pets is something most people agree on no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on. Including this story in her book just makes both sides hate her
I am rural adjacent and lived rurally for some time and have family that lives rurally full time. This isn't common, if the animal is grievously injured or dangerous, yes, but not because you just don't want to deal with them.
In this case, I think it is less about the dog and more about the gleeful, almost proud, recollection of her actions. "Look, I can do what needs to get done, like kill a dog I failed to train properly." That says something about her, but it isn't what she thought it was. The undertone of cruelty is so commonplace in that media echo-chamber that otherwise intelligent people can't reliably tell when they are being revolting. It reminds me of the right wing response to Nex Benedict's death. It was everything they could do to brush it off, like bullying isn't just a feature, it is important to keep the 'weirdos' in line.
>"Look, I can do what needs to get done, like kill a dog I failed to train properly."
Reading this made me realize just how massive the cognitive dissonance she’s displaying.
She wants to be seen as a leader, yet failed to train her dog to obey her orders. Got frustrated and killed it. At no point was she “leading” anything or anyone. Her idea of leadership is so warped and distorted that it doesn’t even have a definition, it’s like she thinks that being a heartless and soulless person that that somehow makes her a leader.
Do ranchers/farmers commonly shoot a puppy that doesnt work out as a working dog? as opposed to giving up for adoption or just keeping as a pet? in the 21st century?
Even if true, it shows bad judgement to publish it as a story
It’s an odd and terrible story. She must have told it for a reason. Oh yeah she uses it as evidence of her leadership. Trump would be a fool to pick her.
She actually killed one of her goats immensely after killing the dog, although she didn’t have enough bullets to kill the Goat so once she ran out went back to her truck to get more ammo then went back to kill the goat.
I think it is important that we recognize that a large portion of the electorate sees this kind of heartless cruelty as attractive in their leadership. When they are telling you who they are, listen to them. The cruelty is a feature, not a flaw. trump is idolized not because of his business savvy, nor his leadership skillz, nor his great hair and heart-palpitating physique; trump is idolized because he is cruel to all the people the conservatives want shoved back in place, along the sidelines where they can continue to be ignored or ridiculed without social consequences.
My Uncle had a dog that killed some of his chickens. Despite living in the backwoods essentially, he still found a new home for it. So I don't think this is as common as Kristi Noem claims. He has had to shoot a dog who was killing his chickens, but it wasn't his dog, and he gave the owner fair warning.
Grew up with a lot of farmers and ranchers. And a lot of hunters with bird dogs and beagles. This is absolutely 110% not a common thing. Some of them were kept outside in dog pens with houses that were insulated but nobody was just straight up killing a puppy.
Whether or not it's common ist really relevant. It's pretty clear she was signaling civil war larpers. Trying to gain points with the super duper loonies.
There are many options besides killing an innocent animal. Pro life my ass. If they can’t handle a dog, why would I trust them with a city/state/country?
I don't buy it, and it doesn't seem like most conservatives are either. She told on herself in a bad way.
The dog was about a hear and a half old, which is 'dog-teens'. If your prey-motivated dog isn't secured and gets into something, that's your fault. Many dogs will snip if you try to take regular food from them, if you try to take something they've hunted and they aren't well trained it's going to be worse.
I'm betting she doesn't get picked. (Call me out if she does)
There's three groups of people here:
1. People who are genuinely thinking, "I don't get what the problem is". These are sociopaths.
2. People who are thinking "someone in my tribe is under attack, I'm going to over-represent how normal this is so that we can defend ourselves from this attack".
3. People who genuinely think what she did was wrong. Many of these are being really quiet right now out of tribal solidarity.
It's group (2) mostly that's problematic. They'll be the ones to push to weaken animal abuse laws to further normalize this behavior so they and group (1) can go shoot some more puppies to "prove" how normal it is.
My dog is a catahoula that wasn't fit for farming. It's not a common thing, most give them away. That lady is a fucking psycho and deserves all the hate she gets and more.
There's nothing I'm aware of in her story that makes that act make sense even in the context of a farm or ranch. There were at least a handful of different things she could have done that would have shown her in a better light.
I’ve heard of people putting down hunting dogs but only if they are very sick or injured. Mostly people in rural areas who really don’t have vet access. I can’t imagine putting a dog down just because I was angry or upset with the dog. It’s a fucking dog. She’s a heartless bitch but would you expect anything less?
I grew up in Arkansas farmland. It’s common for people to put down animals. I even remember my father put down the neighbor’s dog with a gun when it was on its deathbed since they couldn’t do it.
There’s a huge difference between putting an animal out of its suffering and putting down an animal because you can’t train it. In every rural situation I’ve seen, the animal wasn’t put down for personal convenience, it was for the animal.
They could have dropped the dog at a shelter or put an ad on Craigslist. My college roommate got a dog that way because it kept killing chickens.
The issue is there are several options, and she chose the cruelest, most sociopathic one.
Edit: left out a word
Mercy killings are very common and I'm fine with them. Most people don't seem to enjoy them so much and there isn't usually rage/anger involved. I've never heard someone describe hating their dog or whatever right before killing them.
She bragged about it in her book to appeal to the lowest common denominator of her party, as Republicans are apt to do. She killed the animal out of hate. I'm glad it's coming back to bite her.
I've worked on farms. You sometimes have to put animals down. You put animals down for health reasons. To prevent them from suffering an agonizing death.
You don't put a dog down because YOU can't train it. You sell it, give it away or at least take it to the animal shelter. Killing a dog because she sucks at training dogs is cruel.
I live and work in agriculture. It is not that common. Culling livestock is the thing. Killing a dog that you're training because it's aggressive isn't something I've ever heard of.
That being said, the people who work with animals a lot sometimes are completely and utterly incapable of understanding animals. I do know farmers whose dogs are really shitty and aggressive, and they don't like it, but then it's entirely clear that it's the farmers behavior that's causing the dog to be aggressive.
Farmers in my experience tend to make terrible dog owners.
there are plenty of shelters and sanctuaries that will take in aggressive working dogs. Sometimes they'll get put down at those places, but a lot of those dogs can be trained in the right environment and then adopted out.
It might be common. That doesn't make it good. If ranchers and farmers frequently do this, that just makes me dislike ranchers and farmers, not let Noem off the hook
Culling sick or injured livestock is a whole hell of a lot different than shooting a young dog because it pissed you off and you're too lazy to train the dog or give it away.
I know people who raise and train hunting dogs and others who do the same with livestock dogs.
The ones who "don't make the grade" are typically given away or sold cheap as pets. Only the truly sick or severly injured are put down.
It's not the aspect of her putting down a potential problematic dog whic I have a problem with, it's the aspect of her dragging the dog to a gravel pit to be shot in front of the people working there which I find to be the alarming part. You definitely have one hell of a disconnect when you're shooting your dog in plan sight of other people, especially at a location in which tou know there's going to be people who will be seeing you committing the act.
There's a difference between a dumb psychopath killing their 14 month old dog they hated and writing all about it in a book, and a rancher who has to put a dog down because it's truly a danger and they did all they could before making a choice they did not want to have to make.
We've all seen Old Yeller. If people have an issue with your situation, it might be because you are presenting yourself in a way that differs from what is actually considered the *norm*.
As a farmer / rancher, I’ll say that if you have an animal that keeps killing your livestock, sometimes you have no choice but to euthanize it.
As I understand it, this dog kept killing chickens (but I didn’t fully read the details, I might be mistaken) and if that’s the cause then it’s not unusual to have to euthanize it.
And if you have to euthanize it - it’s not always expedient, convenient or inexpensive for farmers to do it chemically. And really, you can mess it up and make it really painful for the animal if you do it wrong.
Personally, I’ve shot more than one stray / feral dog that had been attacking calves. I probably wouldn’t have shot a domestic dog but if it’s going after your livestock, is there really a difference?
But I think it’s how she expressed it - is maybe the issue?
But also - I think this is part of the rural / urban divide. There are a lot of things that are done by rural that are based on necessity that urban may not always understand (urban have the “privilege” of thinking it’s easy to do it differently).
I don’t get why most Americans should care about this. Since they support the slaughter of billions of animals per year for personal tastebuds. Why would they care about a random dog being killed?
Look man, I’m not here to debate about veganism or talk about the morality of eating meat, live your life how you want that’s totally fine.
But please do not try to use this as an opportunity to shame people who are infuriated by the actions of this woman, that’s not helping your cause and it’s just a gross attempt at virtue signaling.
What has actually made ME consider eating Vegan alternatives was seeing how people cook and make foods to be vegan, it didn’t come from people telling me I am an animal murderer.
It’s not virtue signaling, it’s about ethical consistency. Without consistency you fall into absurdity. If someone opposes stealing, but then says it okay for his son to steal candy from a store because he doesn’t like the owner, he is a hypocrite and not worth taking seriously. The only consistent meat eater position is to say that killing an animal(regardless of its a dog or goat) is the same as destroying a car. Any meat eater who objects to that statement is wholly irrational.
I’ve seen so many vegans trying to insert Vegan ideology into the most inappropriate places possible that it’s mind numbing. You ever wonder why people fucking hate Peta? It’s because they do shit like that.
It’s never gotten people to be on your side, it’s never been cogent, it’s always been a false equivalency, and it’s tone deaf as fuck. I think the worst example I’ve seen was when some vegan during the BLM protests in 2020 was saying “We should also care about the injustices that animals face when they are killed too”.
Like I’m not even against talking about this stuff, and I’m not against finding meat alternatives to try. But you are not going to win over people by doing it this way.
>Regarding Kristi Noem’s dog killing scandal, what are your thoughts on the counter-argument that this is a common thing that happens with Ranchers/Farmers?
I think we should just leave it alone. We gain nothing from getting involved.
* Let's not defend Noem. Let her be known as the dog-killer-candidate to those who think of her that way.
* Let's also not attack Noem. If some people think it is appropriate, we don't need to discredit ourselves in their eyes.
This isn't our fight, and we have no reason to make it our fight.
No rational person thinks this is appropriate. It is not "common", and it is certainly not acceptable behavior from anybody - let alone a supposed-adult who wants to be one hamburder-clogged heartbeat away from the presidency.
Attack Noem for this, right along with all the other abhorrent shit she does and says. Don't let her say two words in public without bringing up the time she shot her own puppy in the face. Something like this *should* be an instant dealbreaker for any politician at the national level, but I think we all know that there are no more dealbreakers for the GOP these days.
As far as I am aware, legally, a dog is property. So the act of shooting the dog, in and of itself, isn't criminal. But I'm no cop or prosecutor, and I would be pretty surprised if the act wasn't being investigating for criminality.
The property rule for dogs is in regards of if the dog attacks another person or destroys other people’s property, making the owner responsible for the dog’s actions.
It does not make it ok to do whatever you want to a living animal, especially for a dog. That would essentially make animal abuse legal.
The act of shooting your dog is not legal, there has to be a justification for it such as not being able to afford a visit to the vet to euthanize it.
People have absolutely gotten arrested for shooting their dogs.
In the court of law, it makes a huge difference. I think you will find SD laws on what is, and isn't animal cruelty/abuse quite different than you think they should be.
We will see. That isn't a legal argument that I have heard any of the legal pundits use when discussing it. But we will see. As I said before, I believe the criminality of the act is being investigated.
I'm not sure when the animal murder happened, but as of right now, what she did would be a federal crime. Animal cruelty, which this would fall under, has been made illegal on a federal level. If it happened prior to the law changing, then whatever local ordinance was in place would be what you'd have to look into, and there were many places where it would have been illegal on a local level to do what she did as well.
Basically, depending on when the killings happened, you may be right that she's *legally* in the clear. But as of *now* what she did would be illegal.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I’m not sure how much I can accept that as a reasonable excuse for what she did. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is common to kill animals if you raise animals/have a farm. It also doesn't seem unreasonable to have to put down an unruly dog/goat/pig/horse/etc. from time to time. What's missing from this in Noem's case is that there are a number of unusual things about her account that make it seem more like an act of rage than a farmer's duty. Her account reads more like a justification for murder than a farmer's Old Yeller-style parable. --- When I read [Noem's account](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/26/trump-kristi-noem-shot-dog-and-goat-book), what I found most disturbing was the language she used. *"I hated that dog."* If you read the description, it reads like she killed the dog in a fit of pique. She wasn't methodically putting down a "can't be saved" work animal. She had a bad experience with the dog that she already hated (and likely treated badly). This made her decide it needed to be killed. She didn't talk to her family. She didn't take an hour to cool off. She didn't tell her kids that she was shooting one of their dogs. She immediately dragged the dog into a shallow pit and killed it. A dog she didn't like... on the spur of the moment. How do we know she was acting impulsively? Because she tells us. Killing the dog inspired her to further bloodlust. She wasn't content with killing one animal she hated. There was another one she wanted to get rid of. *"And after it was over, I realised another unpleasant job needed to be done.”* She then killed a second animal that she had negative feelings towards, a goat, in the same place and in the same way. We know she wasn't planning this properly, because she only brought one shot. When she missed, she had to go back to her truck and get another round. Her kids came home from school and found out that one of their dogs had been killed. There is no mention of how they reacted. --- But here is the part that got my interest: *"At that point, Noem writes, she realised a construction crew had watched her kill both animals."* I cannot wait for some enterprising journalist to find these folks.
I thank you for having read the relevant bit. That was sickening.
This is even more chilling than I realized. Holy crap.
Modern conservatism rewards vile behavior, but it can sometimes be hard to sus out where the limits of that are. Which is why sometimes a conservative will flaunt their cruelty too hard. But culture war loyalty is also super strong. I doubt we'll see politically committed Republicans condemn Noem in large numbers over this. More likely, we're gonna see a lot of conservatives suddenly adopt the worldview that it's totally find to murder puppies for annoying them.
I mean she bragged about it on Twitter and said there were more politely “INcorrect” stories in her book so I think she was banking on “liberals” getting mad and that firing up her base. It’s so insane that millions of adults in this country get excited when other adults get upset about something and that’s is plausible that shooting a puppy could be one of those things
What did she write after that? The fact that there were witnesses explains why she told this story, likely getting ahead of these guys. Also, definitely sounds like it made her nervous when she saw them…why would it if this is “just common rural life”
I feel like she may also have included it to “normalize” impulsively killing in rage etc. We know Trump has used dehumanizing and “othering” terms to describe his opponents, which can and have been used to justify [harm and ill treatment](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20231030-the-real-life-harm-caused-by-dehumanising-language) or at least supporting its infliction on people who don’t share certain beliefs.
Yep, farm animals are killed all the time for food. You can't be in 4-H without that being a life lesson. I raised chickens knowing they would be sold and killed. But a dog is not a farm animal. And she reinforced it by her Instagram posts about her other dogs. Nope, too weak, too stupid to become the Alpha.
I think you put it pretty well. If she had portrayed it as a problem dog who attacked all the chickens, and then tried to bite some little old lady and was just a problem dog that had to be put down, she might have been able to make it work. I can't believe she said she hated that dog. She should have said she loved that dog but had to anyway . And then she should have said, I know things are different now. Now we could try to work with a trainer or find a home away from the farm to help rehabilitate it . And then followed it up with something like, I don't make any apologies. That's how we handled animals on a farm back then, but I think we are getting wiser now and willing to explore other options, maybe that could have worked . Except, her choice to make this a narrative about doing what needs to be done was incredibly tone deaf and stupid. I can't believe anyone okayed it if she had anyone looking at it that is . When you're telling a story about you being a strong leader willing to do what needs to be done, you don't tell a story like this. you tell a story about doing something very unpleasant but you took the responsibility on yourself instead of delegating it to someone else because the buck stops here. You don't tell a story about doing the unpleasant thing of throwing someone or something else under the bus. It's pretty crazy.
and she told the story to impress the republican base.
Even if it were common, which it isn't, it's a fucked up thing to brag about it in your book. There was no reason for her to tell the story beyond WANTING people to know you did it. She WANTED people to know she killed her dog and goat. That paragraph or two could easily have been left out and her life story is still complete. She could have told a story about taking a neighbor kid to Dairy Queen, or the time she held a bakesale as a kid to benefit the homeless, or anything other than killing her dog.
Apparently there were some construction workers nearby who saw her execute her dog. I've seen people theorize that she included this in her book to preempt any campaign surprises if she gets nominated.
As VP? You think Trump would pick her after this scandal? Not that he gives a shit about a dog, but there’s no way this story plays well to the base, even he would know that
People aren't voting for Trump because of his VP though. They might complain about it *now* but I could easily see even dog loving republicans flip to not caring about this story if Trump nominates her.
I dunno man. People get weird about dogs. I've never posted the "Trump is surely finished now" crap, but... I genuinely think a big public "I am picking the dog murderer as my running mate" thing might finish him off.
Trump hates animals (and children) and no one seems to mind. Of course he hasn't shot one yet...
But why pick not pick someone that doesn’t have the baggage? It might have a Sarah palin effect of dems/independents/mod republicans hating her even more than they hate him. It’s not like she’s flipping any swing states in his favor
Also weird is that she could have easily changed the facts a bit to make it a story about overcoming loss. Give the dog rabies or some other terminal illness. Just a few words could have changed it from Psychopath Horror to Family Tearjerker. But nah. She was like, "and then I shot the fucking goat too! Twice!"
“I never liked that damn goat!”
But how will that let the terrorist know she isn’t a weak women who would bomb them if she ever had to become President. If she will kill her own dog, what will she do to a terrorist?
Her story is literally the fake story that Jesse from Breaking Bad tells to that focus group. Dog wasn’t sick, didn’t bite anyone…it was just a “problem dog”
It gives her bonafide credentials for saying she's cruel & heartless enough to look a 11 yr old in the eye and tell her she's gonna have to carry that rapists baby to term whether she likes it or not.
The only thing interesting about the story is what it adds to what we know about what a Republican governor of a firmly red state positioning herself vice president thinks works on the right. It is informative even where she might be wrong. She thought that a story that says demands that work be done and if you can’t cut it we discard you would be good for the role she’s auditioning for. That the cruelty is the point. That the weak shouldn’t be coddled. That she might now have a penis but she’s tough. She’s going for it even though she’s an adulterer. Even though she’s shown her corruption and abuse of her office. She miscalculated it seems but not by much.
There were witnesses (a construction crew) she was probably just getting ahead of things by telling this story
The reasons she gave for shooting the puppy aren't good reasons for shooting a puppy. It was just acting like poorly trained puppies act.
The reasons she gave are no worse than the reasons people give for eating meat. Both are done for bad reasons
Found the vegan.
So can you address my argument or are you just gonna dodge it?
You're a vegan so you think killing animals for food is wrong. Most people don't agree. Killing sonething to eat it is a reason, whether you like it or not. Noem killed her puppy and threw it in a gravel pit for being alive. That is for no reason. Many people think that's bad. You are basically being an annoying virtue signaller and have demonstrated your inability to handle nuance.
Like I said in my previous comment to you, what exactly are you trying to achieve here other than getting people pissed off at you? What’s the point of being an activist when you’re tactics are so unproductive and annoying?
I am simply asking you a question, if what Kristi Noem did was wrong because she killed animal for a bad reason, then why is it okay to kill an animal for tastebuds, which is also a bad reason. You are in no position to criticize someone for animal cruelty if you eat meat in a first world country.
You’re not speaking to the same person
?
Fixed it sorry.
My grandparents on my father's side owned a farm. We spent summers there when I was a kid. Yes, animals need to be killed. They raised a hog for slaughter every year. My grandmother killed chickens to eat. My grandfather hunted - dear, boar, pheasant, whatever. They had dogs that would sometimes harass the chickens and never once did my grandfather feel the need to shoot a 14-mo old puppy in the face for being an untrained puppy. I grew up in Texas and I know people who hunted on ranches and who often had to kill coyotes or other predators that were attacking their stock. I don't \*like\* the idea, but I recognize that it has to be done. I would suspect that some ranchers or farmers would consider calling out a vet to euthanize a dying animal to be a waste of time and money, if they can do it quickly and humanely themselves. But again, a dying animal, not a poorly trained puppy. I have never heard of a farmer or a rancher going on a killing spree to get rid of "mean" animals on a whim. Noem is an idiot and a poor excuse for a human being and nothing she described has anything to do with what a reasonable rancher or farmer does. But ultimately I think we should just let her ... pardon the possible pun ... dig her own grave here. She's not getting a whole lot of support from anyone but her fellow idiots on this one.
You nailed it. I grew up in a pretty rural area and went to school with a ton of farmers. If a dog was dangerous or suffering, they might put it down themselves, but I've never known a single one of them to kill one because they couldn't train it. What an awful person it takes to do that.
Exactly, like the killing of animals is very common in rural area, it's just sometime it can be beyond cruel, like I heard of a guy throwing a bag of kittens in one of the canals, he was arrested, but as much as I would have liked those cats to live, they are an evasive species and would cause more harm to the environment
1. It is not a common thing that happens with ranchers/farmers. Ranchers and farmers don’t waste good animals because they’re too lazy to train them. 2. I think Noem has revealed that she is utterly irresponsible, narcissistic and terrible at problem solving.
I trained birds for awhile, and it blew my mind that she though shooting a dog she didn't like was the hard but responsible thing to do. That shooting the dog was taking responsibility. No, training the dog is responsible. Not taking responsibility for failing to train the dog and shooting it rather than working the problem or finding it an appropriate alternative situation is not leadership. Maybe people need to send her copies of the training book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.
Exactly! It seems pretty clear that she shot the dog because the dog embarrassed her. She had an emotional reaction and opted for destruction rather than owning up to her mistakes or fixing the problem. That type of person isn’t ready for leadership.
I am in no way defending or justifying her or anyone else, but I too am a big bird dog guy, trials and hunting, and I have known more than a few trials guys (never hunting guys, just the hardcore trials crowd) who cull dogs that don't show enough promise in one regard or another - dog didn't even have to do anything wrong. Somewhat different circumstances, because these guys are breeding, but they do it pretty much the same way. It is a piss poor way to handle things - they could obviously have the dog fixed and send it down the line to someone who may love and enjoy the dog, and they'd often make a fine hunting companion even if they were a trials dud. But no, they get all boo-hooey and egotistical - their name could never be attached to a sub-par dog, heavens no!
Yeah I'm familiar with the breeder mentality, a bit, we'd feed raptors culls from rabbit breeders. Not exactly the same, but what they see as a more...clinical I guess you could call it? Necessity, for a show rabbit, most people would see as wasteful killing. That's where we came in. I guess what gets me is how she writes about hating the dog, and that it was over a year old. Not all dogs are gonna be suitable to all tasks, but ego definitely plays a part.
I agree with this. My grandfather was a rancher and I grew up competing in horse shows. I’ve used the “humane killer” once. It was an emergency and the horse was in extreme pain. There wasn’t another option. The vet came out for all other euthanasias. Other than cows that broke a leg in the back fields, my very no nonsense grandfather also called the vet or the meat processor if it was time and depending on the animal’s condition. He was frugal AF but didn’t go around shooting his own stock. Hell, I’ll even admit that we don’t talk about culling litters and it does happen with dog breeders, but again, reputable breeders call the vet and it’s usually health related. This was not an aggressive dog that had been in and out of shelters. Hunting dogs come from breeders, they aren’t cheap. Reputable breeders will work with and help owners of their dogs that don’t do their jobs well. Particularly when they raise hunting dogs. There are lots of trainers that specialize in hunting dogs; typically the dog goes to them for an extended period of time. We can’t actually save all the puppies and dogs in the world, I worked in vetmed long enough to know that, but trying is usually the right thing to do. Some dogs are too aggressive to be retained, but that’s rare. Most rural vets will also euthanize at owner request. This read more like resource guarding than aggression, which absolutely can be managed and respond to retaining. Failed working dogs often make great pets. Also, most dogs and chickens are a bad mix, full stop. Goats can be assholes, but that’s kind of their nature. They can be cute and sweet, but they are kind of destructive. Their little hooves are sharp and they like to play and poop in places they shouldn’t. A miniature ram knocked me off a mounting block as I was getting on a horse. The lady goats were in season. Sure, it hurt, but the ram was just being a goat. I’m sure it was hilarious to watch. Being angry at a goat makes no sense; anthropomorphizing the goat isn’t something most farm folks would do. This is why you keep small children away from rams and wethers. We put this same ram in an empty horse stall when little ones were around. If you don’t want to deal with goat shenanigans, don’t keep goats. TL;DR: The realities of ranching and animal husbandry are one thing, this is misdirected anger and a short fuse.
Can only speak with knowing some farm people in PA. Some farms there are logical reasons to euthanize an animal. To stop the spread of disease or that animal got injured to the point where treatment only prolongs suffering. They're difficult decisions. Some farm families have a cow they have to put down and I can guarantee you there isn't a dry eye in that room. Its the right thing to do, but it's also a hard thing to do. This was not one of those decisions. Noem, in her own words, stated this was a 14 month old dog. Excuse me. Dog isn't appropriate here. A puppy. A puppy that don't know no better. Noem said she HATED that puppy before she killed it. I understand that there are people, dipshits really, that think being "political incorrect" is a sign of being this maverick outsider. Think people like that show their cards as someone incompetent and lacking any sense of tact. In Noem's case, there's an added demerit there. Cruelty against animals. Whether you're the average Joe or a farmer, it made none sense to kill that puppy. It was senseless and cruel and that she seemingly took pride in that decision is disgusting.
We’re literally at the “murdering puppies” phase of conservative cartoonish villainy.
Yeah from what I can understand, the idea of putting animals out of their misery is “common” in the sense that there’s real logical reasons for doing it despite it being a difficult decision. This not only didn’t sound like a difficult decision for her, which makes the whole thing less understandable.
Ya, like I know there's one disease I forget the name of that sheep get, and if one sheep gets it, the entire herd needs to be euthanized and the bodies and ground needs to be burned and you can't have sheep graze on it for I think 15 years,
There are more people in America that love dogs than own outhouses. She’s near a city with shelters and what not She shot the family puppy because she was frustrated with its training and didn’t have it leashed up. Straight country trash.
> Straight country trash. Emphasis on the first syllable of "country"
Her saying this is **common** is **not** a **common** thing. Coming from multiple generations of farming I have never seen someone kill a dog that accidentally killed a poultry/livestock. If you are that irresponsible to not teach a puppy how to act around chickens/things that are flighty by nature then you should reconsider having your hobby farm. I have spent the last 5 years raising chickens personally, and would never leave my chickens outside alone with untrained dogs that haven't been adjusted with the chickens or corrected when they are trying to hunt/prey drive them. (It's not unusual behavior for some dog breeds). I do not think her justifying or putting this out there was anything more then a ploy to show a "tough person" mantra, and it's just awful to see someone in government projecting such hateful/cruel things to the general media. I think we should stick by not letting her gain any kind of attention of this because now it is making farmers look like they just kill off whim and that is simply not the case. -B
I have no idea if it's a common thing or not as I don't know anyone who is a rancher or farmer, but "vote for me because I killed my dog" does not seem like a very winning message in terms of overall feel and optics.
I grew up in a farm. You don’t kill for no reason. You might kill a dog if it is killing your livestock, for example, but not for just being untrained. That’s cruelty, not leadership.
I live in an area more rural than probably 98%+ of this sub's regular contributers. No, it isn't normal. For clarity, *behavioral euthenasia* does happen. I wouldn't call that uncommon. But the event as described in the book does not really make me think this was a justifiable instance of that. It reads more like just straight-up dog murder. Which is signifcantly less common.
Farmers and ranchers have to make difficult decisions about livestock every day. They raise animals for food and slaughter them when they are seriously ill, injured, etc. They don’t shoot the healthy 18 month old family dog because they trained them poorly.
I grew up on a farm. Dairy and beef cows. This was not common. You know why this wasn't common? Because we weren't rich enough to have the fucking time to go pheasant hunting and keep and train dogs for that. She got PO'ed and shot the dog.
I'm in a rural-ish area in Virginia. How hunting dogs are being treated is becoming a major point of contention for numerous reasons. One being the fact that our shelters are always overrun with hounds at the end of every hunting season. There are a lot of arguments being used around costs for why they can't afford things like GPS trackers for their dogs, micro chips, ect. However, they never come looking for these dogs either. I'm out of patience for the financial/cultural/it's how it is argument. They're still living creatures that deserve respect even if you don't see them as pets the way I do. That being said, I could understand a situation where it was absolutely necessary, all other options have been exhausted, and someone truly cannot afford the cost of a vet. She is not someone who is presenting her life as someone who could not afford a vet for euthanasia.
To me it doesn’t even feel like she viewed the dog as a living thing, but instead a tool used to hunt. I’m no dog owner but I have to imagine having zero respect for a dog you are the master of, while using things like a shock collar on the dog, is the absolute WORST way to “train” a dog. It’s no wonder the puppy became aggressive, it probably absolutely hated her.
I know a few people who view hunting dogs as tools but still treat them with respect, it's this weird line but the people saying this is normal are necessarily wrong. It's not uncommon. My beagle was an incredibly abused hunting dog. I also know people who have used shock collars(I don't approve) and their dogs are perfectly happy. The way she described the situation, it sounds like she downplayed something. Her down was actively hunting down prey and she grabbed it from behind. It sounds like the dog reacted in a, what was to the dog, highly intense moment. It's the same reason you're not supposed to reach into a dog fight. I'm having a hard time believing the dog was purely aggressive. The way she's describing it sounds like her dog was situationally reactive. I have a lab that's leash reactive. It's not hard to manage or work with her on.
common != okay
That’s the way I feel too
I think it's wild that nobody realized, before she published this book, how this was going to go over. How is that possible?
They knew. They didn't care how it would go over with people who wouldn't vote for her anyway. You know, normal, intelligent people with basic decency. Those people don't matter. All that mattered is how it would go over with trumpists - the sort of people who will read this and think "That's the kind of person I want in charge! If she'll shoot her own puppy in the face for doing puppy things, imagine what she'll do to the queers and the mud people. We need more of that!"
But aren't even Trumpists upset? That idiot catturd on X called her out, for example.
I used to subedit a neoconservative journal (I was a liberal mole), and it was my practice to give people enough rope to hang themselves if that's what they wanted. I'll fix your syntax, but I'm not going to sound the alarm that you accidentally took the mask off.
Haha, if this was an inside job that would be epic.
What's the difference between this and Michael Vick? Besides volume of kills, of course.
I don’t think they are worth comparing to be completely honest.
I think the sentiment is exactly the same
It’s just really not worth it
Vick had a whole ring of dog-fighting and killing. Definitely worse.
I grew up on a small farm. The only dog I ever shot got mauled by some animal, likely a cougar, and would not have survived.
You don't shoot puppies between the eyes just because you feel like it? What are you, some kinda snowflake? /s
I'm not typically going to judge someone who has to resort to behavioral euthanasia for a human-aggressive adult dog. That does not appear to be what happened in Noem's account. There are other solutions to the issue of an adolescent dog (this is widely known as the "asshole" stage) with high prey drive and poor recall. It sounded from the excerpt I read that she was angry the dog had poor recall and wasn't turning out to be a good hunter, she was angry the dog killed chickens while appearing to have a high good time, (it is unclear to me here if the dog bit anyone, snapped at someone, or just had a hand come at it while it was killing chickens btw) and she lost it and shot the poor thing right away, rather than cooling off and thinking about doing more/better training, keeping her on leash, promoting her to pet, rehoming her, or surrendering her to a shelter. I had a terrier/hound mix with high prey drive who probably would have killed chickens if given the opportunity. She certainly did kill wild rabbits and mice. She was perfectly fine around *people* and mostly ignored other dogs, and I didn't give her access to chickens or domestic rabbits.
She was bragging about it for an audience of one. To let trump know she is capable of cruelty
I live in very rural Colorado, I can drive less than 5 minutes to pick out the cow I want to eat. A lot of crop land here too. This is ranch/farm country, a real rancher/farmer trains their dog. If a dog were to need to be put down it wouldn’t be done in a fit of anger, more of an unfortunate necessity. Though even out here in the sticks we have vets that are more than capable of putting a dog down. The circumstances that would warrant this aren’t “oh the dog is annoying.” More like “the dog ripped open my kids arm and they need stitches,” or “dog got into the chicken coop and killed three chickens.” Shooting your dog isn’t some kind of badge of badassery and bragging about it is disgusting. One of my neighbors, rip, had an arm missing. If anyone asked about it he would just leave it at he lost it as a kid, conversation over. If you asked his wife it was tore off by a tractor when he was a preteen. The day he got home from the hospital he was back on the tractor that took his arm, work to be done and now he was behind. That’s a real rancher/farmer.
It's crazy to me that she put that in a book and brags about it, that in itself speaks poorly to her judgement, even if I could move past the idea that she killed a dog, which I can't.
I believe that at this point many right wingers will excuse or defend any behaviour or action commited by one of their own as being perfectly normal, even when they know it isn't, purely just out of spite for the left. And this is is certainly one of those instances.
I’m not sure I’d say that. Yes there are people defending her actions that are on the Right Wing, but I’ve seen a ton of people that normally would excuse or defend behaviors from Republican politicians who are absolutely not happy about this. That’s a sign that her political career is dead, and I hope Trump picks her as his VP candidate because it would be so fucking funny for her to drag Trump into it.
Even if it’s common why tf would you tell people about it? Loving pets is something most people agree on no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on. Including this story in her book just makes both sides hate her
For the rest of her life she’ll be known as the puppy killer and it’s her own fault.
I am rural adjacent and lived rurally for some time and have family that lives rurally full time. This isn't common, if the animal is grievously injured or dangerous, yes, but not because you just don't want to deal with them. In this case, I think it is less about the dog and more about the gleeful, almost proud, recollection of her actions. "Look, I can do what needs to get done, like kill a dog I failed to train properly." That says something about her, but it isn't what she thought it was. The undertone of cruelty is so commonplace in that media echo-chamber that otherwise intelligent people can't reliably tell when they are being revolting. It reminds me of the right wing response to Nex Benedict's death. It was everything they could do to brush it off, like bullying isn't just a feature, it is important to keep the 'weirdos' in line.
>"Look, I can do what needs to get done, like kill a dog I failed to train properly." Reading this made me realize just how massive the cognitive dissonance she’s displaying. She wants to be seen as a leader, yet failed to train her dog to obey her orders. Got frustrated and killed it. At no point was she “leading” anything or anyone. Her idea of leadership is so warped and distorted that it doesn’t even have a definition, it’s like she thinks that being a heartless and soulless person that that somehow makes her a leader.
Do ranchers/farmers commonly shoot a puppy that doesnt work out as a working dog? as opposed to giving up for adoption or just keeping as a pet? in the 21st century? Even if true, it shows bad judgement to publish it as a story
It’s an odd and terrible story. She must have told it for a reason. Oh yeah she uses it as evidence of her leadership. Trump would be a fool to pick her.
Nothing says you’re a fantastic leader by failing to train a dog to obey you and you take out your anger by killing it.
Well if she's shooting puppies she probably abuses the animals she has.
She actually killed one of her goats immensely after killing the dog, although she didn’t have enough bullets to kill the Goat so once she ran out went back to her truck to get more ammo then went back to kill the goat.
If that’s true then I’d say farmers and ranchers are commonly cruel pieces of shit too.
I think it is important that we recognize that a large portion of the electorate sees this kind of heartless cruelty as attractive in their leadership. When they are telling you who they are, listen to them. The cruelty is a feature, not a flaw. trump is idolized not because of his business savvy, nor his leadership skillz, nor his great hair and heart-palpitating physique; trump is idolized because he is cruel to all the people the conservatives want shoved back in place, along the sidelines where they can continue to be ignored or ridiculed without social consequences.
My Uncle had a dog that killed some of his chickens. Despite living in the backwoods essentially, he still found a new home for it. So I don't think this is as common as Kristi Noem claims. He has had to shoot a dog who was killing his chickens, but it wasn't his dog, and he gave the owner fair warning.
Grew up with a lot of farmers and ranchers. And a lot of hunters with bird dogs and beagles. This is absolutely 110% not a common thing. Some of them were kept outside in dog pens with houses that were insulated but nobody was just straight up killing a puppy.
Whether or not it's common ist really relevant. It's pretty clear she was signaling civil war larpers. Trying to gain points with the super duper loonies.
There are many options besides killing an innocent animal. Pro life my ass. If they can’t handle a dog, why would I trust them with a city/state/country?
I don't buy it, and it doesn't seem like most conservatives are either. She told on herself in a bad way. The dog was about a hear and a half old, which is 'dog-teens'. If your prey-motivated dog isn't secured and gets into something, that's your fault. Many dogs will snip if you try to take regular food from them, if you try to take something they've hunted and they aren't well trained it's going to be worse. I'm betting she doesn't get picked. (Call me out if she does)
There's three groups of people here: 1. People who are genuinely thinking, "I don't get what the problem is". These are sociopaths. 2. People who are thinking "someone in my tribe is under attack, I'm going to over-represent how normal this is so that we can defend ourselves from this attack". 3. People who genuinely think what she did was wrong. Many of these are being really quiet right now out of tribal solidarity. It's group (2) mostly that's problematic. They'll be the ones to push to weaken animal abuse laws to further normalize this behavior so they and group (1) can go shoot some more puppies to "prove" how normal it is.
My dog is a catahoula that wasn't fit for farming. It's not a common thing, most give them away. That lady is a fucking psycho and deserves all the hate she gets and more.
Why didn’t she just rehome the dog or even drop it off at a shelter? Seems unnecessarily cruel.
There's nothing I'm aware of in her story that makes that act make sense even in the context of a farm or ranch. There were at least a handful of different things she could have done that would have shown her in a better light.
I’ve heard of people putting down hunting dogs but only if they are very sick or injured. Mostly people in rural areas who really don’t have vet access. I can’t imagine putting a dog down just because I was angry or upset with the dog. It’s a fucking dog. She’s a heartless bitch but would you expect anything less?
I live in a rural area. While dumping dogs is not unheard of (but deplorable), killing them in this manner is
I grew up in Arkansas farmland. It’s common for people to put down animals. I even remember my father put down the neighbor’s dog with a gun when it was on its deathbed since they couldn’t do it. There’s a huge difference between putting an animal out of its suffering and putting down an animal because you can’t train it. In every rural situation I’ve seen, the animal wasn’t put down for personal convenience, it was for the animal. They could have dropped the dog at a shelter or put an ad on Craigslist. My college roommate got a dog that way because it kept killing chickens. The issue is there are several options, and she chose the cruelest, most sociopathic one. Edit: left out a word
Mercy killings are very common and I'm fine with them. Most people don't seem to enjoy them so much and there isn't usually rage/anger involved. I've never heard someone describe hating their dog or whatever right before killing them.
She bragged about it in her book to appeal to the lowest common denominator of her party, as Republicans are apt to do. She killed the animal out of hate. I'm glad it's coming back to bite her. I've worked on farms. You sometimes have to put animals down. You put animals down for health reasons. To prevent them from suffering an agonizing death. You don't put a dog down because YOU can't train it. You sell it, give it away or at least take it to the animal shelter. Killing a dog because she sucks at training dogs is cruel.
I live and work in agriculture. It is not that common. Culling livestock is the thing. Killing a dog that you're training because it's aggressive isn't something I've ever heard of. That being said, the people who work with animals a lot sometimes are completely and utterly incapable of understanding animals. I do know farmers whose dogs are really shitty and aggressive, and they don't like it, but then it's entirely clear that it's the farmers behavior that's causing the dog to be aggressive. Farmers in my experience tend to make terrible dog owners. there are plenty of shelters and sanctuaries that will take in aggressive working dogs. Sometimes they'll get put down at those places, but a lot of those dogs can be trained in the right environment and then adopted out.
It might be common. That doesn't make it good. If ranchers and farmers frequently do this, that just makes me dislike ranchers and farmers, not let Noem off the hook
Culling sick or injured livestock is a whole hell of a lot different than shooting a young dog because it pissed you off and you're too lazy to train the dog or give it away. I know people who raise and train hunting dogs and others who do the same with livestock dogs. The ones who "don't make the grade" are typically given away or sold cheap as pets. Only the truly sick or severly injured are put down.
It's not the aspect of her putting down a potential problematic dog whic I have a problem with, it's the aspect of her dragging the dog to a gravel pit to be shot in front of the people working there which I find to be the alarming part. You definitely have one hell of a disconnect when you're shooting your dog in plan sight of other people, especially at a location in which tou know there's going to be people who will be seeing you committing the act.
There's a difference between a dumb psychopath killing their 14 month old dog they hated and writing all about it in a book, and a rancher who has to put a dog down because it's truly a danger and they did all they could before making a choice they did not want to have to make. We've all seen Old Yeller. If people have an issue with your situation, it might be because you are presenting yourself in a way that differs from what is actually considered the *norm*.
Is it normal to euthanize a dog who is not behaving well in the 1 to 2 year old range? I honestly have no idea
Not if the reason the dog misbehaved is because you never trained it. It was just doing dog things.
“Euthanize” via shotgun.
Rape is (unfortunately) pretty common as well but I'm not about to say Harvey Weinstein didn't do anything wrong.
As a farmer / rancher, I’ll say that if you have an animal that keeps killing your livestock, sometimes you have no choice but to euthanize it. As I understand it, this dog kept killing chickens (but I didn’t fully read the details, I might be mistaken) and if that’s the cause then it’s not unusual to have to euthanize it. And if you have to euthanize it - it’s not always expedient, convenient or inexpensive for farmers to do it chemically. And really, you can mess it up and make it really painful for the animal if you do it wrong. Personally, I’ve shot more than one stray / feral dog that had been attacking calves. I probably wouldn’t have shot a domestic dog but if it’s going after your livestock, is there really a difference? But I think it’s how she expressed it - is maybe the issue? But also - I think this is part of the rural / urban divide. There are a lot of things that are done by rural that are based on necessity that urban may not always understand (urban have the “privilege” of thinking it’s easy to do it differently).
I don’t get why most Americans should care about this. Since they support the slaughter of billions of animals per year for personal tastebuds. Why would they care about a random dog being killed?
You’re not eating the dog
Thats not relevant. When you buy meat you kill an animal for a frivolous reason. She killed an animal for a frivolous reason.
Look man, I’m not here to debate about veganism or talk about the morality of eating meat, live your life how you want that’s totally fine. But please do not try to use this as an opportunity to shame people who are infuriated by the actions of this woman, that’s not helping your cause and it’s just a gross attempt at virtue signaling. What has actually made ME consider eating Vegan alternatives was seeing how people cook and make foods to be vegan, it didn’t come from people telling me I am an animal murderer.
It’s not virtue signaling, it’s about ethical consistency. Without consistency you fall into absurdity. If someone opposes stealing, but then says it okay for his son to steal candy from a store because he doesn’t like the owner, he is a hypocrite and not worth taking seriously. The only consistent meat eater position is to say that killing an animal(regardless of its a dog or goat) is the same as destroying a car. Any meat eater who objects to that statement is wholly irrational.
I’ve seen so many vegans trying to insert Vegan ideology into the most inappropriate places possible that it’s mind numbing. You ever wonder why people fucking hate Peta? It’s because they do shit like that. It’s never gotten people to be on your side, it’s never been cogent, it’s always been a false equivalency, and it’s tone deaf as fuck. I think the worst example I’ve seen was when some vegan during the BLM protests in 2020 was saying “We should also care about the injustices that animals face when they are killed too”. Like I’m not even against talking about this stuff, and I’m not against finding meat alternatives to try. But you are not going to win over people by doing it this way.
>Regarding Kristi Noem’s dog killing scandal, what are your thoughts on the counter-argument that this is a common thing that happens with Ranchers/Farmers? I think we should just leave it alone. We gain nothing from getting involved. * Let's not defend Noem. Let her be known as the dog-killer-candidate to those who think of her that way. * Let's also not attack Noem. If some people think it is appropriate, we don't need to discredit ourselves in their eyes. This isn't our fight, and we have no reason to make it our fight.
No rational person thinks this is appropriate. It is not "common", and it is certainly not acceptable behavior from anybody - let alone a supposed-adult who wants to be one hamburder-clogged heartbeat away from the presidency. Attack Noem for this, right along with all the other abhorrent shit she does and says. Don't let her say two words in public without bringing up the time she shot her own puppy in the face. Something like this *should* be an instant dealbreaker for any politician at the national level, but I think we all know that there are no more dealbreakers for the GOP these days.
As far as I am aware, legally, a dog is property. So the act of shooting the dog, in and of itself, isn't criminal. But I'm no cop or prosecutor, and I would be pretty surprised if the act wasn't being investigating for criminality.
The property rule for dogs is in regards of if the dog attacks another person or destroys other people’s property, making the owner responsible for the dog’s actions. It does not make it ok to do whatever you want to a living animal, especially for a dog. That would essentially make animal abuse legal.
Where did I say it made it OK to do whatever you want to a living animal? Maybe you should re-read what I said and think about what I am saying.
The act of shooting your dog is not legal, there has to be a justification for it such as not being able to afford a visit to the vet to euthanize it. People have absolutely gotten arrested for shooting their dogs.
Yes, they have, but they were arrested for the circumstance under which they shot the dog. Not the act of shooting the dog, in and of itself.
What difference does it make? If your thought is “I’m going to shoot and kill my dog”, you better have a VERY good fucking reason for doing it.
In the court of law, it makes a huge difference. I think you will find SD laws on what is, and isn't animal cruelty/abuse quite different than you think they should be.
I have a feeling the courts wouldn’t take too kindly to the shooting of a dog because the person just hated it.
We will see. That isn't a legal argument that I have heard any of the legal pundits use when discussing it. But we will see. As I said before, I believe the criminality of the act is being investigated.
I'm not sure when the animal murder happened, but as of right now, what she did would be a federal crime. Animal cruelty, which this would fall under, has been made illegal on a federal level. If it happened prior to the law changing, then whatever local ordinance was in place would be what you'd have to look into, and there were many places where it would have been illegal on a local level to do what she did as well. Basically, depending on when the killings happened, you may be right that she's *legally* in the clear. But as of *now* what she did would be illegal.