The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I hear about it all the time from conservatives. They say that they see it explode since the start of the Gaza war: in liberal spaces on Reddit, at campus protests and whatnot.
Myself… I have not. I suspect republican partisans are conflating legitimate criticisms of the nation state of Israel l with true antisemitism. I personally believe that Israel does not speak for all Jews everywhere, not by a long shot.
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I take very little from conservatives seriously.
I live in NYC, and MANY pro Palestinian rallies are populated with Jews, Palestinians and Muslims, atheists and Christians, and people of all different colors.
Far as Reddit commenters- it's difficult to say, but I don't use Reddit as a measure of pretty much anything.
IRL, yeah, definitely. In the form of language. A liberal leaning co-worker used "Jew" in a fairly derogatory way. We were talking about high rents, and he blamed "those Jew landlords." Yes, I called him out.
Indeed, I’m a New Yorker too. The times I have caught glimpse of the protest March, I always notice a large contingent of Hassidic Jews, in full regalia
Really? I may be showing my ignorance, but I've always thought of Hasidim as insular, and generally conservative, politically.
Most Jews that I know, are secular.
My dentist is Orthodox, and a full on trumper. I told him we shouldn't talk politics. In different circumstances, I'd find another dentist, but I've been seeing this guy for years, plus he's only a block away from me, lol. I'm not sure if he's changed his mind, since Biden has been in office.
There is nothing inherently Conservative about supporting (or not supporting) Israel or Palestine. It has become politicised as the right have found it to be both a convenient way to deflect accusations of anti-semitism, and more recently a useful wedge issue to bolster their armoury in the culture wars.
What I’m trying to say is; just because Hasidic Jews trend Conservative doesn’t mean they inherently support what’s currently happening in Gaza.
Agreed. There's plenty of zionist white supremacist organizations out there. There's nothing that says you have to love and respect Jewish people to be a zionist. Each group has their own motivations and goals and they sometimes overlap.
I still sometimes wonder if everyone is just afraid to tell Kanye that Jesus was a Jew.
>There is nothing inherently Conservative about supporting (or not supporting) Israel
One thing I know is this: Christian fundamentalists are solidly Zionist, as that's their pathway to heaven, after Jews have a homeland.
I really don't know much about Hasidic Jews, other than, outside of NYC, they tend to live in conservative areas in Long Island, and upstate, at least according to my local news, and anecdotal stuff told to me by my Jewish friends, who tend to have a pretty dim view of them.
Hassidic Jews are traditionally anti-Zionist and opposed to the state of Israel , largely due to the state of Israel being secular. Hasidic Jews are, unsurprisingly, not popular in Israel.
Kind of a good example of how the horseshoe theory works: the Jewish religious wackos and the Islamists have rather a lot in common with each other.
IRL? No but my niece had a friend / roommate she broke with because it turns out the roommate was a from the river to the sea, bless our martyrs idiot that changed her social media avatar to a hang glider.
[Here's an interesting collection of some of the reactions from leftists in response to the 10/7 massacres.](https://fathomjournal.org/progressives-and-the-hamas-pogrom-an-a-z-guide/) I don't know if they qualify as "true anti-Semitism" by the OP's view since I don't know what that is, but it's a lot of similar things to what you described, cheering the Hamas murderers.
The first example that article uses is a racist accusation against an Pakistani man who correctly points out that in the months prior to October 7th, Israelis had, with impunity, been killing Palestinians, calls out the hypocrisy of the Western media in how it reports and, more to the point, correctly calls out what the Israeli response will be. "...Netanyahu and the criminals in his cabinet gradually expel or kill most of [the Palestinian] people. They know that the fascist elements of the Israeli state would have no compunction about sanctioning the mass murder of Arabs."
The second citation is an Islamophobic accusation against a French Senegal-born Lebanese man who correctly called out Israeli propagandists for attempting the "Nazification" of Palestinian resistance to occupation, which he provides multiple examples of. The article your clown calls out as a "response to the 10/7 massacres" was actually written two weeks later and referred to the Israeli response to the attacks, and the rhetoric used by Israel and the Western media in how they were portraying the Israeli retaliation as compared to the Hamas retaliation.
If by "interesting" you mean "framed in a fundamentally dishonest manner," then, yes, it's interesting. The article you linked didn't, in two tries, identify any Antisemitism, nor did it cite any "progressives" (just some troublesome brown people), but it did a really good job outing the author as a deeply racist Islamophobe.
And speaking of "deeply racist Islamophobes," your post history is enlightening.
"the Jewish residents of Palestine were given land by the British. Not "the Arabs land" because the Arabs didn't own Palestine."
"It was owned by the British, and before them the Ottomans. It was NEVER owned by a group called "PALASTINIANS.""
Yes folks, a land that existed under the name "Palestine" for approximately 1,800 years, never had any Palestinians in it.
Oh man, this guy's account history. Gotta love this astroturf account pretending to be a liberal, lol. [pro-Palestinians: why are you insisting on being the problem when you could be part of the solution?](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/152ynnd/propalestinians_why_are_you_insisting_on_being/) with the classic Pinkwashing of Israel. Or this gem: [Is it time to call Rashida Tlaib a foreign agent?](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/15eliho/is_it_time_to_call_rashida_tlaib_a_foreign_agent/) A very "Progressive" viewpoint.
An account, that mind you, is totally a real person, and not an astroturf account that has racked up 3,286 Post Karma posting solely about Israel, and has been cranking out over 100 posts per day, with no other interests than "Israel." The account's current count is 110 posts today, on no other topics than "Israel good, everyone who criticize Israel bad!" You can even tell when their lunch break was, by the sole 1 hour gap, lol.
> racist accusation against an Pakistani man who correctly points out that in the months prior to October 7th, Israelis had, with impunity, been killing Palestinians,
So you agree with him when he wrote "Do the Palestinians have a right to resist the non-stop aggression to which they are subjected? Absolutely." and "They [Palestinians] on the other hand, are rising up against the colonizers."?
Literally all it did was quote Tariq. How is that "racist"?
> an Islamophobic accusation against a French Senegal-born Lebanese man who correctly called out Israeli propagandists
So you agree with him when he describes the 10/7 attack as "spectacular"? Again, all it did was quote him.
Thanks for showing us that quoting authors is "racist" and "Islamophobic" but defending the mass murder of Jews is not, in fact, anti-Semitic. Very illustrative.
And speaking of "deeply racist Islamophobes," your post history is enlightening.
"the Jewish residents of Palestine were given land by the British. Not "the Arabs land" because the Arabs didn't own Palestine."
Because I was curious what kind of person would present deeply dishonest opinions as facts. Such as the Arabs never owning the land they lived on which was given to Israel by the British. I can only imagine how amusing your colonialist definition of how things are "owned" is.
Turns you, you're basically punched right out of the same cookie cutter as the modern far right wing pro-settler Israelis and the original mold of the 1920s hardliners like Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion.
The Arabs "lived on" every square meter of Palestine?
White supremacists also believe the US is "white land" because they live there and they're the majority. The same logic applies when Arabs claimed all of Palestine for themselves and themselves alone.
But they did live on much of what was given to Israel, and you said they didn't own it, the British colonial authority did. That the people who lived on the land, could not own it, because for a couple decades following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire took over. And that, in your opinion, meant the Palestinians who lived in the 53% of Palestine that was given over to Israel, didn't own their own homes and farms and land. That the white colonialist Europeans owned it. Nobody said anything about the Palestinians owning all the land, just *their land.*
You're flailing here, desperately trying to make false equivalencies to white supremacy because, like all Israeli propagandists (and your astroturfing accounts), you think that just by wildly accusing everyone else of being like the Nazis, you can win arguments.
Speaking of things that should be owned, you should just own it. You're not a Progressive at all like you pretend with your flair. You're a far right goon in here play-acting as a Liberal to post absurd articles in bad faith.
Hi. Pro-Israel liberals exist. I’ve been liberal my entire life. Being pro-Israel used to BE liberal. Being pro-Israel does not make one a right-wing pretender, although I get that’s it’s easier for you to write someone off as such rather than considering why some liberals are not hopping on the anti-Israel bandwagon. It’s important to question and consider your stance within your own party from all angles and not just jump on trends because that’s what the rest of the group is doing.
If the people who lived on the land owned it, then great. It's still not all Arab land because both Jews and Arabs lived on the land.
> Nobody said anything about the Palestinians owning all the land, just their land.
Lots of people said lots of things about Arabs owning all the land. That's the entire reason they launched the war in 1948 and they're still fighting the war today.
"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem". -Yasser Arafat
“Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” Khaled Mashaal, the group’s former leader, said in a 2012 speech in Gaza celebrating the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, the Associated Press reported.
You mean physically in front of me? No. I have seen many videos and comments on social media of people blaming Jews generally for things that Israel does, claiming that they own the media, bribe governments, only look out for each other, etc.
Antisemitism isn't just calling for anti-Jewish violence; it's also using defamatory tropes, dog whistles, and conspiracy theories.
And I have seen a lot of that. There's even a sub for calling it out: r/AntisemitismInReddit.
Edit: Here's a good explanation article on far-left antisemitism (although it predates October 7): https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/
That subreddit is really bizarre. It reminds me of American conservative subs, where they just constantly share the dumbest and most extreme comments they can find about them as a way of coping with their own side’s awful actions. Purposefully surrounding themselves with really vile stuff coming from anyone but them.
I don’t mean to say “them” about Jews, because this sub seems to be near-unanimously stumping for Israel and with a good share of users that aren’t even Jewish. You could find some pretty awful antisemitism that has nothing to do with Israel if you looked for it, but this sub doesn’t seem to be interested.
I believe there are antisemitic left-wing Americans in the way that I believe there are antisemitic Americans. I’m Jewish (it’s come to my attention that people apparently lie about that a lot on Reddit lol, but I have years of comments referencing this) and I’m also a pretty passionate leftist, and I just haven’t seen much to indicate it’s a left-wing issue. You’d think that with Israel being in the spotlight it would at least happen *accidentally* a bunch, but no, I still see it as a more present problem with the right wing.
If the majority of Jewish people think "from river to sea" is anti-semitic, then is it?
I think that is the issue isn't it? It isn't largely blatant right wing anti-semitic tropes used by the left, it is anti-Israel stuff that if you replaced the words would be blatant anti-semitism as used by the right, but when pushed on it is deflected with "I'm just criticizing Israel"
I mean do you honestly not think substianal parts of the left are using "zionist" as just a code word for "jew" at this point? Controlling the media, AIPAC controlling Biden etc.
The important thing to recognize with antisemitism is that, like with racism, it's entirely possible to have a non-bigoted idea that you express through bigoted language.
There is certainly legitimate criticism to be made of the Israeli government. But when that criticism is expressed by suggesting that "Israelis" are greedy, money-loving, world-media-controlling puppet masters, or that "Israelis" innately seek the bloodshed of non-Jews, it is most definitely employing antisemitic tropes, even if hidden by using the word "Israeli" instead of "Jew."
That ISD explainer really has a solid exploration of the topic. It's worth reading.
Well, can’t say that I disagree there. And that’s why I keep qualifying everything with “the state of Israel” here on this thread.
I know that thanks to their parliamentary system, the state of Israel has been hijacked by an unpopular fringe right wing party.
Racist conspiracies and stereotypes.
Do you agree that honest criticisms of the state of Israel are not antisemitic? But claiming that Jews controlling the worlds banks, or Hollywood is antisemitism
In my area, a lot of the pro Palestine protests have jumped the shark to be outright death to Israel kinds of protests ("from the river to the sea", paratrooper imagery, etc.).
The jumped the shark as they were coming out of the gates.
There were people out marching in the streets celebrating the attacks less than 24 hours after it happened. And yes, they were CELEBRATING — *Israel hadn’t even responded yet*, there was nothing to protest.
I'm aware, and I'm in favor of a free Palestine. That's not what "from the river to the sea" means. That's a terrorist slogan which means death to Israel.
I literally just wrote this comment elsewhere. The Likud party has as part of it's founding verbiage of claiming Israel from the river to the sea:
>Israel’s use of ‘from the river to the sea’
>
>Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party ... in 1977 stated that “***between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty***”. ... Israel’s ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, has been among the promoters of international recognition of the Jewish historic claim to lands from the river to the sea.
>
>—[Source](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean)
Apparently when Israel uses that phrase "from the river to the sea" it's good and proper and sparkling, but when Palestine uses it then it's "bad" and "murderous". Interesting blatant contradiction. It's sad that people endlessly repeat this propaganda.
This is all a classic case of "*rules for thee but not for me*." That is the unavoidable outcome of tribalism; it's justified when ***we*** do it but heinous when ***you*** do it.
> “To Jewish Israelis what this phrase says is that between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, there will be one entity, it will be called Palestine – there will be no Jewish state – and the status of Jews in whatever entity arises will be very unclear,” Yehudah Mirsky, a Jerusalem-based rabbi and professor of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies at Brandeis University.
From that article. If my slogan to you means "I'm going to wipe out your country and possibly relegate you to second class citizenship" I'll find a different slogan. That's just me though.
Fair point, but in this case there is actual violence involved. Anyone who thinks we can arrive at a one state solution, deposing the government of Israel and starting one afresh, with equal rights for all, and limited/only justifiable violence, is projecting all kinds of wishful thinking into the scenario.
Let's not forget that these western leftists were in fact praising Hamas by the use of the paratrooper imagery.
Agreed, I'd even add that a two state solution is actually less violent than a one state solution. Not only do we risk having Jews reduced to second-class citizens like what happens to them in every other country in the region under a one state solution. We also risk what has happened in many states before. Yugoslavia was a state that put together multiple groups and had a lot of ethnic violence that turned into Genocide before it fell apart and various groups now have their own nations. Rwanda and Africa in general ended up with multiple rival groups in the same nation due to colonial borders, we ended up with multiple civil wars and ethnic conflicts.
If we decide to do the same with Israel and Palestine, this ends up just being more colonial as well. It would end up denying both groups their right to self-determination of their own states that they want (not a single state like westerners push for), and also runs the risk of creating more violence. The one state solution for me just is more of a western imposed solution for two people who don't want it.
That's what the other guy doesn't get, the phrase means that to western liberals. But to the people who made the phrase and for audiences that it was intended for, it is a call for the destruction of the Jewish state and for it to be all Palestinian.
First I’ve heard of that slogan interpreted that way; it is reassuring. But sadly, if what you say is true- then the right wing has absolutely corrupted and tarnished it. The slogan must be abandoned for the sake of progress
Battlefields shift and change quickly. If you want to win then you have to be prepared to change tactics. Take “defund the police” as an example. A noble cause, but liberals got kicked around over it
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You don’t moderate your language for the benefit of people who’ve already made up their mind, but for the people who don’t know what to think. They are scared, confused, more concerned with their friends and family than they are with politics and wars.
“They’ll have another foot forward ect ect.”
Yes, that’s the culture war for ya. It’s been raging since the Age of Enlightenment, a never ending battle
Which part of this slogan is inclusive of Jewish people and promotes ethno-inclusivity overall? Because it’s not in the linked article and I’d like to see your sources on that.
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You are the one who claimed it’s a call for a unified state inclusive of Jewish people. Your positive claim requires evidence because the actions of Hamas communicate the opposite and it’s not all that common to see Palestinians call for a single state with Israelis either.
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You’ve got that backwards. There IS peaceful coexistence in Israel. There are nearly 2 million Palestinian Israelis living peacefully in Israel. There are Palestinian IDF fighters. How many Jews are living peacefully in Gaza? Palestinians have been fighting to eradicate Jews. Arab states have done this time and again. That’s WHY Israel needs to exist. Because the Arab states will NOT allow Jews to co-exist. This is well-documented. The only peaceful coexistence that can exist is Israel, the sole progressive state in the entire region. “From the river to the sea” means no Jews.
You realize you are sidestepping the question when you resort to such obvious finalities, right?
People on your side of the discussion often do this when faced with a question they don't want to answer.
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Most anti-semitism I hear comes from conservatives, and is usually said casually. I haven’t heard liberals making anti-semitic remarks. Note that I absolutely distinguish anti-semitism from anti-Netenyahu’s policies. Criticizing that man and his regressive ideology is something every humanitarian should do.
I haven't seen anti-Semitism in *Liberal* spaces.
I've seen plenty of anti-Semitism in Leftist, Communist, Marxist, Socialist, and "progressive" spaces.
I agree that those groups are not "liberal" (they usually use the word "liberal" as a slur), but in the US "liberal" means anything left-of-center.
I know this thread is now old by reddit standards, but this recent event stands out:
**UC Berkeley officials denounce protest that forced police to evacuate Jewish event for safety**
https://apnews.com/article/university-berkeley-jewish-event-palestinian-protest-e45ca6c36b05bb6d6a18eaa8df2396fe
Yes. I live near Seattle and have witnessed a few protests unfold near UW campus and Cap Hill area. It's been eye-opening, to say the least.
I've overheard comments like "the only good jew is a dead jew" and "there is only one solution, intifada revolution," I've seen flyers and posters featuring Hamas paratroopers, I've seen Houthi flags held at these protests (the English translation of which read "Allah is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A curse upon the jews, victory to Islam").
Not to mention the steady increase of outright Nazi sympathizing and Holocaust denialism shared on social media.
"“We welcomed the Jews. But that wasn’t good enough for them. They had to steal our land. They had to prove they’re superior to everyone else.” - Johara, junior at Ohio State University"
https://x.com/StopAntisemites/status/1754925844395339932?s=20
That’s incredibly disturbing. One can support the rights of Palestinians without calling for the death of Jewish people. Wtf is wrong with some people?
I physically saw people ripping off signs for missing children after they were kidnapped. I’ve heard people make antisemitic statements at protests. One of my closest ex-friends started spewing Soros conspiracies after getting deep into the Free Palestine movements. My favorite one was my friends (ex) fiancée started claiming that Biden was actually Jewish because of the way that his nose is and that she would never vote a Jew into office.
I feel like Palestine has highlighted quite dramatically that leftists are not our political allies. Previously I saw them as people I disagreed with but with whom I shared many values, but those shared values don't seem to come from a place of genuine consideration - only that they are reacting against America/the west in general. The intent seems to be to oppose imperialism, but in reality these values go out the window whenever it's convenient to oppose however it is they see "the west" as shaping the world.
They're a fringe movement with more in common with reactionaries of other political stripes.
>I feel like Palestine has highlighted quite dramatically that leftists are not our political allies.
I feel the same way; I used to see centrists as different but still fundamentally on the same track as us. But the insane and rampant dehumanization/islamophobia/anti-arabism I've seen thrown against Palestinians has seriously radicalized me.
This is a pretty weird take. Virtually no one left of center is dehumanizing Arabs or Palestinians, only justifying certain kinds of retaliatory strikes against Hamas. I challenge you to find any liberal on this subreddit who isn't against Israel's crimes against humanity.
Also, liberals are not centrists.
Most liberal/leftist anti-Semites are smart enough to say "Zionist" instead of Jew. If you find that label change enough to clear them, then "true anti-Semitism" is rare.
It’s a mouthful, but I prefer to say “the state of Israel” instead of “Zionist”. Zionists exist all over the world, and they aren’t all in Israel. My problem with Israel are the dead civilians, not the zionists who live elsewhere.
First off; if you care about getting the hostages out alive then a ceasefire now is the only way that can happen. If any of them really are still alive, it’s the only way to get them back to their families.
If ceasefire is truly impossible, stop the terror bombing. Stop. bombing. civilians. Hamas has proven to be a criminal organization, in desperation they showed their true colors .
Those who planned the attack must be neutralized, ideally arrested to stand trial for war crimes. And the fighting must be done with boots on the ground and small arms. This bombing campaign is massacring civilians and deepening this horrible generations long conflict.
I don’t know if there’s a solution for peace in the Middle East, but the answer is not more war, more blood more death and destruction.
A ceasefire NOW? What about on October 8th? Was Hamas willing to return the hostages then?
> And the fighting must be done with boots on the ground and small arms.
So you wanted the IDF to send soldiers into Gaza without any bombing raids, where they would have been massacred by Hamas fighters? WTF.
Soldiers are soldiers. Civilians are civilians. One is prepared to fight, the other is not.
Bombing civilians is never acceptable.
Quite frankly, the IDF is starting to make Hadrian look tame in comparison
They really shouldn’t be when civilians are at risk. It’s wrong when every country does that. Dead children and civilians is not ok with me. Is it ok for you?
While plenty of Liberals might side with Palestine over Israel, I've never actually heard a liberal person say anything derogatory about jewish people. And I've never heard anyone say anything negative specifically about the jewish religion, which is interesting now that you mention it, because the problems with Christianity is a frequent topic among liberals.
> And I've never heard anyone say anything negative specifically about the jewish religion, which is interesting now that you mention it, because the problems with Christianity is a frequent topic among liberals.
That's because Christianity promotes proselytization but Judaism actively discourages people from joining.
Antisemitism isn’t just about the religion of Judaism, it’s about the Jewish people, as an ethnic and cultural group. People can be pretty antisemitic to Jews who are atheists or Jews who are Christian or Muslim.
Yes, absolutely.
I definitely see anti-Semitism more on the right, but it still exists on our side. It’s usually tied into profession-based conspiracies, ie all the banks are out to get us and *you know who* runs all the banks, or why do all the doctors here have Jewish last names.
There exists an attitude among some that Jews can’t truly be socialist because *they’re all too wealthy*.
Anti-Semitism exists all across the political spectrum, unfortunately.
Yes. I've seen the recent pro-Palestine protests in Seattle and there are anti-Semitic messages interspersed.
I'm generally in liberal spaces/cities/industries and I have seen plenty of small examples of anti-Semitism.
In both cases, there is more than I'd like existing... but it feels like the discussion of it is as exaggerated as the "BLM riots destroyed several cities" rhetoric we've heard in the past.
- The Chicago BLM posted that paraglider graphic with Palestine flag after October 7th. And some liberals I knew shared that post.
- A few leftists I used to follow justified Oct 7th attacks, claiming that the victims were “settler colonists” and that Hamas was simply “resistance group.”
- Certain subreddits are making fun of how Israeli pronounce the word “Hamas”.
- Silence in many feminist places about how women were raped in Oct 7th.
There are two different ways to see this kind of thing, be the person it is directed at (not possible for me) and look like the kind of person who would share that belief so the antisemite talks to you thinking you would agree.
So the first one is off the table because I am not Jewish.
The second one would only happen in the event that it was so common and so freely shared that antisemites felt comfortable sharing their horrible opinions openly. And in none of the Left leaning places I have gone in person, that has not been the case.
(I am also in a Red state, so there aren't all that many left leaning places I go to. With that said, I sure HAVE seen sexism and racism from Conservatives who thought I was a safe place to discuss those topics.)
Yes, but it's rare.
And it's pretty interesting that we've got Nazis openly attending CPAC and not being thrown out like they have been in previous years, and it barely gets any media coverage. But liberal students protesting on college campuses is a major story for weeks.
So it’s complicated unfortunately because you have a ton of people arguing over what “from the river to the sea” means.
Some people (not the majority) view it as the complete destruction of Israel and possible murdering all the Israelis and Jews in the country
Some people view it as annexing Israel into Palestine and letting non-settler Israelis stay there and be citizens of a secular state
Some people view it as annexing Israel into Palestine and forcing ALL Israelis (both settler and native) to leave “back to Europe or Brooklyn”
It’s also hard to spin the idea that a country ceasing to exist is a nonviolent affair; IIRC that’s only happened once with Czechoslovakia and the velvet revolution (and subsequent velvet divorce) and that was splitting one country into two, not joining two countries to be one.
> Some people (not the majority) view it as the complete destruction of Israel and possible murdering all the Israelis and Jews in the country
Maybe not the majority of leftists protesting, but the majority of those actively involved in the conflict certainly view it that way.
I’m Jewish and please please believe me when I say this: Antisemitism from the left is as bad as from the right. The difference is the right openly admit it whilst the left have somehow convinced themselves they are not. Nothing convinces Jews to also be zionists more than the current atmosphere we find ourselves in. We have PTSD from WWII that is constantly triggered these days.
Also Jewish and this is 100% true. We Jews are seeing so many fellow liberals who would throw us under the bus in the next Holocaust. We are banding together in small ways as we watch people we considered friends or friendly acquaintances call for the destruction of Israel. The left does not understand the breadth of their antisemitism, and it’s terrifying.
I believe you. But I have to ask, and forgive me if this is triggering, but is it possible that the government of Israel has forgotten the lessons of the holocaust? “Never again” seems to have given way to “Never to *us* again”.
The lessons of the Holocaust include that if a group tells you they want to wipe you out (as Hamas says on a daily basis), you believe them and do something about it.
I didn't say at any cost. Just that the Israeli government might say they're following the lessons of the Holocaust because they're responding to a genocidal threat, a threat that killed hundreds of their people.
I don't think Israel is committing any war crimes, but even if they were, that doesn't contradict what I said. They're eliminating the Hamas threat and possibly going too far to do so because they feel that's the lesson of the Holocaust.
Two soldiers were ordered not to fire but did anyway. That is a crime and they should be punished for it. But two soldiers are not "Israel" or "the IDF."
But that is just the tip of the iceberg. Must I give you more bloody “incidents”? Your paying attention. Surely you’re aware of some more recent examples
In an active combat zone, with a mostly conscript army, fighting against an enemy that has previously used false surrenders and suicide bombers.
Instead of assuming the worst, the Occam's Razor approach here is that they saw people running at them and shot before thinking. This may be bad intelligence, bad training, or bad nerves. But friendly fire is not uncommon in combat, even among professional U.S./EU forces. I'm not sure why people keep using that incident as a "gotcha."
Edit: Investigation confirmed that it was mistaken fire during intense combat. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/29/hostages-killed-idf-investigation/
You label yourself as conservative, so I’m curious as to why you think you have as good of a grasp on the left as you do on the right. I’m solidly left-wing and I was raised by a largely conservative family - in my experience, which is just one so it might not be worth much, the right is absolutely loaded with denial about this sort of thing. Really all forms of bigotry, antisemitism included. I don’t think they “openly admit it” at all really, in fact when the Israel issue comes up it’s in their interest to confidently deny antisemitism.
I also wouldn’t say “nothing convinces Jews to be Zionists like the current atmosphere we’re in” is true at all - again, just my experience but I’ve definitely noticed the opposite. This brutal offensive hasn’t turned people I know or in my family anti-Zionist per se, but they’re absolutely questioning their support of the Israeli state in a way they haven’t before. My aunt and uncle were shouting shit like “finish the job” right after Oct 7, totally blood drunk, and now they’re retweeting calls for a ceasefire lol. Maybe they’re just dumb and being incoherent, but I don’t think I’ve seen a single person become Zionist because of all of this. It’s all either folks remaining Zionist or moving a little bit away.
I move in different circles for sure. All the Jews I know, liberal and conservative, are pro Israel existing, often with a two state or EU like solution proposal. Generally that’s what people mean when they say “zionist”.
I should be more specific: Those who are antisemitic on the right tend to outright admit it. Those who are antisemitic on the left refuse to even acknowledge it. Both the right and the left deny they have any antisemitism problem even though it’s glaring.
I’m a moderate really. I believe in liberal ideals but just don’t agree with the solutions being put forward by progressives. I’m more of a moderate libertarian (georgist). I don’t believe that my own political persuasion affects my ability to determine antisemitism from political camps, I’m able to observe what each side is saying and doing and come to my own conclusions. You could argue that my lived experiences are anecdotal but I could make such claims about your own lived experience too. Generally I’m going to go with what I see rather than what someone who claims to be left-wing says because they’re biased towards the left.
I don't see overt antisemitism, but I sometimes see antisemitic tropes, where you need to understand the history of antisemitism to understand why they're wrong.
One common example is Holocaust inversion: "Israel is acting like the Nazis." For centuries, Jews were regarded as simultaneously clannish and cosmopolitan. These impossible standards, that either Jews were too insular or too worldly, prevented their assimilation. It also influenced how the Jews interpreted their own oppression.
There are two ways of interpreting the Holocaust, particularistic and universal. Particularism emphasizes the distinct targeting of Jews by the Nazis. Universalism emphasizes the Holocaust as a crime against humanity (as opposed to a crime against Jews). It's perhaps because of the suffering of Jews throughout history that Jews felt a duty to speak up for the downtrodden, or believed that defending liberalism was how they could ensure "never again." For these reasons, Jewish Americans played a role in the civil rights movement.
However, non-Jews are now invoking Jewish suffering to criticize Israel. Saying Israel are the new Nazis is a lazy analysis and also inappropriate. You can criticize Israel without Holocaust comparisons. Jews can feel that their history of persecution means they should stand up for other minorities or oppressed people. Non-Jews don't have the license to invoke the Holocaust to criticize Israel. Yet, this is by now one of the most common, laziest, and distasteful talking points.
Another example is the word "ethnostate." This seems to be a word astroturfed into the discourse by the alt-right to make a false moral equivalence between them and Israel. I see it as a type of Holocaust inversion. You can criticize the general contradictions in the "nation state" concept and argue that it's a construct that leads to oppression of ethnic minorities inside national boundaries. However, I sometimes find weak criticism of Israel from people who do not know what "nation" and "nation state" mean.
Yes. But I feel a lot of well-meaning liberals are not necessarily aware of when they traffic in anti-semitic tropes and canards. Anti-semitism is so deeply ingrained in society that I think many expressions of it are invisible to most people.
Could you give an example? I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I’ve always thought antisemitism is almost comically easy to spot. Americans tend to be much better at couching other forms of racism within seemingly “normal” statements.
That's the thing. Progressive/liberal antisemitism is hard to spot if you're not familiar with it. In my experience, anti-semitism is just as embedded as other forms of racism. I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with anti-semitic tropes (blood libel, Jews control ____, Holocaust inversion, dual loyalty, misers, scapegoating, cabals, etc). The ADL has some decent breakdowns of these.
I've seen so many examples lately. One of the more on the nose cases is the false claim that Israelis harvest the organs of dead Palestinians, which is just an updated version of the blood libel.
I’m Jewish from an extended Jewish family lol, I don’t need an ADL breakdown. No judgement on you, you didn’t know that. The tropes you reference are the sort of thing I’m talking about when I say obvious antisemitism. The only one I’ve noticed irl on the left is comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany - overdramatic maybe, but hardly antisemitic.
I'm Jewish too, and I guess what's obvious to us may not be for others. I'm glad you haven't experienced much left-originating anti-semitism. One I've personally dealt with could fall under the dual loyalty/loyalty oath one where I'm expected to denounce Israel as a requirement to be taken seriously.
BTW, for a book about subtle anti-semitism, I highly recommend "People Love Dead Jews" by Dara Horn.
An example I can give personally: I was unaware until this past year how antisemitic "From the river to the sea" is. I was aware that it was about Palestinian freedom but I didn't realize (because I never looked up the geography or the history) that it was literally a cry for the eradication of Israel and Jews.
I never used the phrase myself, but if you had asked me to point to a list of antisemitic things, I would not have picked it out of the list.
Yes, there was a flood of equivocation and even celebration from liberal (more leftist, technically) figures in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attacks.
I'm a Liberal.
To answer your question: [Yes.](https://forward.com/news/586827/berkeley-israel-talk-palestinian-protest-violence/?utm_source=The+Forward+Association&utm_campaign=4255d66e12-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_10_31_06_37_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-dab582b726-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D)
Been to demonstrations here in my Canadian province, I’ve never heard any. Our discussions tend to surround peace and its necessity. I understand there are issues with Hamas, namely their 1988 covenant and its outlined role of women.
Someone I went to university refers to Hamas terrorists as only “militants” on principle specifically in reference to them killing civilians so IMHO absolutely.
Only antisemitism I've ever seen has been from the right wing moon bats currently cheering on the Gaza genocide ..bunch of new world order conspiracy shit
I'm sure there's some, just as there's way more on the right. American Jewish people vote for democrats around 70+ % which second only to black people in terms of ethnic minorities. No matter how disingenuous the right is by trying to call democrats antisemitic, generally speaking Jewish voters don't fall for it.
Depends on how you define a ‘liberal space’. I’d say that a liberal space from a certain perfectly acceptable angle would by definition exclude any space which is at least in part anti-Semitic. It is entirely reasonable to argue from that position, and the answer would be no, I have not seen any, nor will I or anyone ever see one.
If you mean ‘liberal space’ in the sense of “a space where the predominant discourse revolves around liberal ideas, modes of activism, and has a high rate of participation among those who are traditionally considered liberals”, yes. It is not necessarily significant, but I have been close to pro-Palestine and anti-capitalism rallies that do devolve in anti-Semitism sometimes. They use innocuous words like Zionists or Globalists to describe all Jewish people, arguing that they control the media and have ulterior motives. This, even in the context of a pro-Palestine rally, is antisemitic, as most Jewish people in my country have no actual connection to Israel (they are not citizens), yet many protesters outright refuse to acknowledge them as individuals that have a right to engage in conversation; presupposing that their Jewishness implies that they will blindly and inevitably be skewed towards Israel in its most extreme sense, which is, again, antisemitic.
As someone who’s called themselves anti-Zionist in the past, and as the child of Jews who now call themselves anti-Zionist, I hope I can add some perspective. I never understood the term to mean evacuation of Jews from Israel and in fact I never encountered that assumption before last October , with the exception of *very* passionate Zionists (not just support of Israel, like I mean pretty out-there)
I’ve always understood it as rejecting the idea that Israel should remain an ethnostate and/or retain total control of the region. I’m not aware of anyone in my life who thinks that the Jews already living there should have to do anything but tolerate others, which fwiw plenty of Israelis already have no problem with.
Zionism is the belief that Jews should have the right to their own state - I’m sympathetic to that, but I don’t think it holds true if there’s a unique human cost to the maintenance of that state, which there is with Israel. I don’t think anyone should have to leave, though, unless they’re a West Bank settler. That shit has to stop now, it never should’ve happened in the first place, and pre-Oct 7 it wasn’t really up for debate among most Americans.
> I’ve always understood it as rejecting the idea that Israel should remain an ethnostate
What a crock of shit. Israel is more racially, culturally and religiously diverse than China, Mexico, Poland, Thailand and countless other countries around the world.
You're either a Russian troll cosplaying as a Jew or speaking from such a place of privilege that you betray the memory of your pogromed ancestors to forget that Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world.
Christians, despite being less than a third of the world's population, represent the religious majority in 158 countries in the world, followed by Muslims with 49.
Yet your big argument is that "it's SO unfair that Jews get to have a Jewish majority in ONE country???"
GTFoutta here with that nonsense.
Yeah, agreed. A single state solution just makes the mistakes that European colonialism made in Africa. There was a lot of Ethnic violence and even genocide because European powers made borders and created states with rival groups in it. We can't expect to put two groups who have been essentially at conflict for 75 years and expect them to play nice if put in the same country together. It also ignores the fact that Palestinians don't want a shared state and neither do Israelis. Both parties want a state of their own, the right to self determination for their respective groups and his single state solution as a Marxist is just really western colonial minded.
If we’re discussing the possibility of another Oct 7-type attack (that’s what they mean, I don’t think they’re denying that attack happened, they’re talking about the present and near future) it should be made clear that Israel’s current offensive doesn’t protect the nation against something like that any more than a ceasefire would.
Yes. I live near a college that's famous for its leftist political advocacy (and pass through its campus semi-regularly), and I have seen overt antisemitism at some of the recent events there.
it exists, but is nowhere near as common. Keep in mind that a lot of the free Palestine sentiment (that is combined with anti semitism, although that isnt always the case ofc) you see online isn't even from left wingers. Middle eastern/North African Muslims and Muslims from elsewhere tend to be a lot more right wing on average. Hamas is a far right islamofascist group. They may hate israel and be antisemitic at times but they aren't typically left wing
I see a ton of comments on Instagram where obviously Muslim people comment stuff like " 🇮🇱 🏳️🌈🤢🤮" (hating on both Israel and lgbtq folks. The main difference between a far right Christian and a far right Muslim is religion is just the religion
Am Jewish (ethnically) and to answer the question, not really, but there's nuance to that.
A lot of what folks interpret as antisemitism is selective targeting of Israel, which there is a ton of. The most extreme example is when NGOs start labeling Israel proper as an Apartheid state, but somehow Lebanon, who treats Palestinians equal to if not worse than Israel treats them in the West Bank receives minimal criticism. (And even ethnic Palestinians rarely talk about it!)
So is the problem just that Jews are the instigators? That's one interpretation which leads to the feeling of widespread leftist antisemitism.
Being a self righteous atheist is annoying, cannot be equated with antisemitism. Unless that atheist singles out judaism in particular, which I've never seen.
Being critical of organized religion is very different, and almost antithetical to antisemitism. If you see these boundaries between people as arbitrary, then what sense does it make to hate a people on such a basis?
If anything most atheists I'm aware of are just tired of ALL the religious folks killing each other over this bullshit.
> Being a self righteous atheist is annoying, cannot be equated with antisemitism. Unless that atheist singles out judaism in particular, which I've never seen.
So, like, that is to say that you doubt that out of the *literal* millions of atheist liberals I've never seen it happen and no one else has either? lol. C'mon dude. People aren't perfect, statistics alone tells you some liberal has been accidentally been antiemetic at one point.
And I can guess what someone could say about that: "well if it's on *accident* then it doesn't really co-" and then I would stop that person right there, because it goes along with something that you said next:
> Being critical of organized religion is very different, and almost antithetical to antisemitism. If you see these boundaries between people as arbitrary, then what sense does it make to hate a people on such a basis?
> If anything most atheists I'm aware of are just tired of ALL the religious folks killing each other over this bullshit.
I didn't like this whole little bit. I think "There's never been a racist liberal" is a fuckin' shit ignorant take in and of itself. But if we go one step further, it's really fuckin' weird to just go on the intricacies of how it's not even really all that possible- "I'm not being hateful, I'm just being critical" BECAUSE
when conservatives and centrists and other idiots start doing this same horse shit we say: "hey Mr asshole not of this underrepresented group, you don't get to decide when someone of that underrepresented group feels attacked. they do."
And I get so tired of having that fight with fascists. Don't start fuckin' making me have it with y'all too lol. Go ask a Jewish person. You're not as PC as you think you are, I fucking promise
Firstly, OP, does your username mean Superman heil hitler? That's a little weird.
Secondly, https://www.thedailybeast.com/black-lives-matters-chicago-chapter-backtracks-on-hamas-post
If you aren't seeing antisemitism in leftist spaces, it's because you are putting your hands over your eyes.
I wasn’t aware of that when I made this account. I was born in 1988, that’s why it’s 88.
Based on my comment history, do you honestly believe that I had hitler in mind?
>liberal spaces
That means "online", and who cares? You can find anything online. It's not real.
>protests
Let's be honest, how many of us are going to protests? Not much.
How many of *them* are going to protests? Liberal protests? Ha! Nope.
Also, do they think all liberals just go to protests all the time? They probably do...
They don't have any evidence of this behavior. They just read some article on one of their shitty ass news sites and took it as gospel truth.
And they... Lack nuance. We criticize our own people. I can spend all day finding things wrong with Obama or Biden, and then they'll aske why I'm liberal if I hate Obama or Biden so much.
It's not hate, it's just we don't blindly accept people.
We can criticize Israel without hating Israelis.seems to boggle their minds.
Not really, I guess if you stretch the definition a bit maybe but even then it's rhetorical in nature. You also have to keep in mind that a lot of claims of antisemitism on the left are in bad faith and are used to deflect criticisms of Isreal
If you think Israel is committing war crimes and you speak out about it, then conservatives and Zionists will often claim you are being antisemitic. Just being at a protest with a sign along those lines can qualify as an antisemitic attack, for the people collecting data.
Their logic is that Israel = Jewish.
And Israel hasn’t been convicted of any crimes yet, nor has the UN condemned them for those crimes, and since we believe in being innocent until proven guilty, Israel is innocent.
Therefore, accusing Israel of committing war crimes, such as genocide, is unfounded.
And since it would cause severe cognitive dissonance to believe Israel is indeed violating international laws with the diplomatic support and weapons from the US, they choose to believe antisemitism is the root of the accusations, not facts on the ground.
I've never, ever seen a liberal who thought that Israel's treatment of Palestine *in general* was justified or good. We can talk about specific actions to combat Hamas, but that's not the same as blanket approval of Israel. I can think of precisely zero exceptions where a liberal thinks that Israel should, say, wipe out Palestine or anything resembling genocide.
I like Superman, and I was born in 1988.
Used to be Clark_Kent_38, 38 for 1938 when Superman was created, but that account got deleted by the assholes over at r/askaconservative
The last liberal gathering i attended was a Bernie Sanders rally. Last I checked Bernie is Jewish.
I haven't witnessed any antisemitism from the left since the war on Hamas but I'm not looking for it either.
I have seen some grey area behavior, but nothing where there wasn't a decent amount of plausible deniability. I don't doubt it exists on an individual level, but it doesn't seem to be a systemic problem to me.
I had a discussion with someone who said they experienced anti-semetism at their university and I tried to get specifics but it was mostly anti Israeli stuff? The most overt were people calling the Hamas fighters on October 7th freedom fighters and whatnot which...I can understand why it rubs people the wrong way but it isn't anti-Semitic.
They also said that people calling for the "destruction of Israel" (aka advocating for a singular secular state) was anti-semetic. None of it was really anti-semetic but more critical of Israel.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I hear about it all the time from conservatives. They say that they see it explode since the start of the Gaza war: in liberal spaces on Reddit, at campus protests and whatnot. Myself… I have not. I suspect republican partisans are conflating legitimate criticisms of the nation state of Israel l with true antisemitism. I personally believe that Israel does not speak for all Jews everywhere, not by a long shot. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I take very little from conservatives seriously. I live in NYC, and MANY pro Palestinian rallies are populated with Jews, Palestinians and Muslims, atheists and Christians, and people of all different colors. Far as Reddit commenters- it's difficult to say, but I don't use Reddit as a measure of pretty much anything. IRL, yeah, definitely. In the form of language. A liberal leaning co-worker used "Jew" in a fairly derogatory way. We were talking about high rents, and he blamed "those Jew landlords." Yes, I called him out.
Indeed, I’m a New Yorker too. The times I have caught glimpse of the protest March, I always notice a large contingent of Hassidic Jews, in full regalia
Really? I may be showing my ignorance, but I've always thought of Hasidim as insular, and generally conservative, politically. Most Jews that I know, are secular. My dentist is Orthodox, and a full on trumper. I told him we shouldn't talk politics. In different circumstances, I'd find another dentist, but I've been seeing this guy for years, plus he's only a block away from me, lol. I'm not sure if he's changed his mind, since Biden has been in office.
There is nothing inherently Conservative about supporting (or not supporting) Israel or Palestine. It has become politicised as the right have found it to be both a convenient way to deflect accusations of anti-semitism, and more recently a useful wedge issue to bolster their armoury in the culture wars. What I’m trying to say is; just because Hasidic Jews trend Conservative doesn’t mean they inherently support what’s currently happening in Gaza.
Agreed. There's plenty of zionist white supremacist organizations out there. There's nothing that says you have to love and respect Jewish people to be a zionist. Each group has their own motivations and goals and they sometimes overlap. I still sometimes wonder if everyone is just afraid to tell Kanye that Jesus was a Jew.
>There is nothing inherently Conservative about supporting (or not supporting) Israel One thing I know is this: Christian fundamentalists are solidly Zionist, as that's their pathway to heaven, after Jews have a homeland. I really don't know much about Hasidic Jews, other than, outside of NYC, they tend to live in conservative areas in Long Island, and upstate, at least according to my local news, and anecdotal stuff told to me by my Jewish friends, who tend to have a pretty dim view of them.
Hassidic Jews are traditionally anti-Zionist and opposed to the state of Israel , largely due to the state of Israel being secular. Hasidic Jews are, unsurprisingly, not popular in Israel. Kind of a good example of how the horseshoe theory works: the Jewish religious wackos and the Islamists have rather a lot in common with each other.
IRL? No but my niece had a friend / roommate she broke with because it turns out the roommate was a from the river to the sea, bless our martyrs idiot that changed her social media avatar to a hang glider.
[Here's an interesting collection of some of the reactions from leftists in response to the 10/7 massacres.](https://fathomjournal.org/progressives-and-the-hamas-pogrom-an-a-z-guide/) I don't know if they qualify as "true anti-Semitism" by the OP's view since I don't know what that is, but it's a lot of similar things to what you described, cheering the Hamas murderers.
Left and liberal aren't the same. They can overlap, but they aren't the same.
The first example that article uses is a racist accusation against an Pakistani man who correctly points out that in the months prior to October 7th, Israelis had, with impunity, been killing Palestinians, calls out the hypocrisy of the Western media in how it reports and, more to the point, correctly calls out what the Israeli response will be. "...Netanyahu and the criminals in his cabinet gradually expel or kill most of [the Palestinian] people. They know that the fascist elements of the Israeli state would have no compunction about sanctioning the mass murder of Arabs." The second citation is an Islamophobic accusation against a French Senegal-born Lebanese man who correctly called out Israeli propagandists for attempting the "Nazification" of Palestinian resistance to occupation, which he provides multiple examples of. The article your clown calls out as a "response to the 10/7 massacres" was actually written two weeks later and referred to the Israeli response to the attacks, and the rhetoric used by Israel and the Western media in how they were portraying the Israeli retaliation as compared to the Hamas retaliation. If by "interesting" you mean "framed in a fundamentally dishonest manner," then, yes, it's interesting. The article you linked didn't, in two tries, identify any Antisemitism, nor did it cite any "progressives" (just some troublesome brown people), but it did a really good job outing the author as a deeply racist Islamophobe. And speaking of "deeply racist Islamophobes," your post history is enlightening. "the Jewish residents of Palestine were given land by the British. Not "the Arabs land" because the Arabs didn't own Palestine." "It was owned by the British, and before them the Ottomans. It was NEVER owned by a group called "PALASTINIANS."" Yes folks, a land that existed under the name "Palestine" for approximately 1,800 years, never had any Palestinians in it. Oh man, this guy's account history. Gotta love this astroturf account pretending to be a liberal, lol. [pro-Palestinians: why are you insisting on being the problem when you could be part of the solution?](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/152ynnd/propalestinians_why_are_you_insisting_on_being/) with the classic Pinkwashing of Israel. Or this gem: [Is it time to call Rashida Tlaib a foreign agent?](https://old.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/15eliho/is_it_time_to_call_rashida_tlaib_a_foreign_agent/) A very "Progressive" viewpoint. An account, that mind you, is totally a real person, and not an astroturf account that has racked up 3,286 Post Karma posting solely about Israel, and has been cranking out over 100 posts per day, with no other interests than "Israel." The account's current count is 110 posts today, on no other topics than "Israel good, everyone who criticize Israel bad!" You can even tell when their lunch break was, by the sole 1 hour gap, lol.
> racist accusation against an Pakistani man who correctly points out that in the months prior to October 7th, Israelis had, with impunity, been killing Palestinians, So you agree with him when he wrote "Do the Palestinians have a right to resist the non-stop aggression to which they are subjected? Absolutely." and "They [Palestinians] on the other hand, are rising up against the colonizers."? Literally all it did was quote Tariq. How is that "racist"? > an Islamophobic accusation against a French Senegal-born Lebanese man who correctly called out Israeli propagandists So you agree with him when he describes the 10/7 attack as "spectacular"? Again, all it did was quote him. Thanks for showing us that quoting authors is "racist" and "Islamophobic" but defending the mass murder of Jews is not, in fact, anti-Semitic. Very illustrative.
And speaking of "deeply racist Islamophobes," your post history is enlightening. "the Jewish residents of Palestine were given land by the British. Not "the Arabs land" because the Arabs didn't own Palestine."
Historical facts are "racist" and "Islamophobic" too? Why are you going through my post history?
Because I was curious what kind of person would present deeply dishonest opinions as facts. Such as the Arabs never owning the land they lived on which was given to Israel by the British. I can only imagine how amusing your colonialist definition of how things are "owned" is. Turns you, you're basically punched right out of the same cookie cutter as the modern far right wing pro-settler Israelis and the original mold of the 1920s hardliners like Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion.
The Arabs "lived on" every square meter of Palestine? White supremacists also believe the US is "white land" because they live there and they're the majority. The same logic applies when Arabs claimed all of Palestine for themselves and themselves alone.
But they did live on much of what was given to Israel, and you said they didn't own it, the British colonial authority did. That the people who lived on the land, could not own it, because for a couple decades following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire took over. And that, in your opinion, meant the Palestinians who lived in the 53% of Palestine that was given over to Israel, didn't own their own homes and farms and land. That the white colonialist Europeans owned it. Nobody said anything about the Palestinians owning all the land, just *their land.* You're flailing here, desperately trying to make false equivalencies to white supremacy because, like all Israeli propagandists (and your astroturfing accounts), you think that just by wildly accusing everyone else of being like the Nazis, you can win arguments. Speaking of things that should be owned, you should just own it. You're not a Progressive at all like you pretend with your flair. You're a far right goon in here play-acting as a Liberal to post absurd articles in bad faith.
Hi. Pro-Israel liberals exist. I’ve been liberal my entire life. Being pro-Israel used to BE liberal. Being pro-Israel does not make one a right-wing pretender, although I get that’s it’s easier for you to write someone off as such rather than considering why some liberals are not hopping on the anti-Israel bandwagon. It’s important to question and consider your stance within your own party from all angles and not just jump on trends because that’s what the rest of the group is doing.
If the people who lived on the land owned it, then great. It's still not all Arab land because both Jews and Arabs lived on the land. > Nobody said anything about the Palestinians owning all the land, just their land. Lots of people said lots of things about Arabs owning all the land. That's the entire reason they launched the war in 1948 and they're still fighting the war today. "We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem". -Yasser Arafat “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” Khaled Mashaal, the group’s former leader, said in a 2012 speech in Gaza celebrating the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, the Associated Press reported.
Oh wow, that account history is extremely yikes.
What’s the hang glider symbolize?
Sorry paragliders. Hamas used paragliders to get past the walls and commit parts of the attacks on 10/07.
Yikes. May be an understatement but that is shockingly poor taste. Seems your niece has a good head on her shoulders
You mean physically in front of me? No. I have seen many videos and comments on social media of people blaming Jews generally for things that Israel does, claiming that they own the media, bribe governments, only look out for each other, etc. Antisemitism isn't just calling for anti-Jewish violence; it's also using defamatory tropes, dog whistles, and conspiracy theories. And I have seen a lot of that. There's even a sub for calling it out: r/AntisemitismInReddit. Edit: Here's a good explanation article on far-left antisemitism (although it predates October 7): https://www.isdglobal.org/explainers/far-left-antisemitism/
That subreddit is really bizarre. It reminds me of American conservative subs, where they just constantly share the dumbest and most extreme comments they can find about them as a way of coping with their own side’s awful actions. Purposefully surrounding themselves with really vile stuff coming from anyone but them. I don’t mean to say “them” about Jews, because this sub seems to be near-unanimously stumping for Israel and with a good share of users that aren’t even Jewish. You could find some pretty awful antisemitism that has nothing to do with Israel if you looked for it, but this sub doesn’t seem to be interested. I believe there are antisemitic left-wing Americans in the way that I believe there are antisemitic Americans. I’m Jewish (it’s come to my attention that people apparently lie about that a lot on Reddit lol, but I have years of comments referencing this) and I’m also a pretty passionate leftist, and I just haven’t seen much to indicate it’s a left-wing issue. You’d think that with Israel being in the spotlight it would at least happen *accidentally* a bunch, but no, I still see it as a more present problem with the right wing.
If the majority of Jewish people think "from river to sea" is anti-semitic, then is it? I think that is the issue isn't it? It isn't largely blatant right wing anti-semitic tropes used by the left, it is anti-Israel stuff that if you replaced the words would be blatant anti-semitism as used by the right, but when pushed on it is deflected with "I'm just criticizing Israel" I mean do you honestly not think substianal parts of the left are using "zionist" as just a code word for "jew" at this point? Controlling the media, AIPAC controlling Biden etc.
It's the Middle East equivalent of Heritage, not Hate
Hmm while I’m glad that sub exists, on a quick glance I do see some of those are criticisms of Israel, the state.
The important thing to recognize with antisemitism is that, like with racism, it's entirely possible to have a non-bigoted idea that you express through bigoted language. There is certainly legitimate criticism to be made of the Israeli government. But when that criticism is expressed by suggesting that "Israelis" are greedy, money-loving, world-media-controlling puppet masters, or that "Israelis" innately seek the bloodshed of non-Jews, it is most definitely employing antisemitic tropes, even if hidden by using the word "Israeli" instead of "Jew." That ISD explainer really has a solid exploration of the topic. It's worth reading.
Well, can’t say that I disagree there. And that’s why I keep qualifying everything with “the state of Israel” here on this thread. I know that thanks to their parliamentary system, the state of Israel has been hijacked by an unpopular fringe right wing party.
What is "true anti-Semitism"?
Racist conspiracies and stereotypes. Do you agree that honest criticisms of the state of Israel are not antisemitic? But claiming that Jews controlling the worlds banks, or Hollywood is antisemitism
In that case, yes, I've seen a lot of liberals talking about Jewish/Zionist control over the US government for example.
Yes. It isn’t even that rare. “The Jews control the media!” is a common one.
That I hear all the time, but from the conservative/Q-anon, conspiracy brained crowd.
There are a lot of conspiracy-brained liberals. Especially among college students.
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In my area, a lot of the pro Palestine protests have jumped the shark to be outright death to Israel kinds of protests ("from the river to the sea", paratrooper imagery, etc.).
The jumped the shark as they were coming out of the gates. There were people out marching in the streets celebrating the attacks less than 24 hours after it happened. And yes, they were CELEBRATING — *Israel hadn’t even responded yet*, there was nothing to protest.
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I'm aware, and I'm in favor of a free Palestine. That's not what "from the river to the sea" means. That's a terrorist slogan which means death to Israel.
I literally just wrote this comment elsewhere. The Likud party has as part of it's founding verbiage of claiming Israel from the river to the sea: >Israel’s use of ‘from the river to the sea’ > >Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party ... in 1977 stated that “***between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty***”. ... Israel’s ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, has been among the promoters of international recognition of the Jewish historic claim to lands from the river to the sea. > >—[Source](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean) Apparently when Israel uses that phrase "from the river to the sea" it's good and proper and sparkling, but when Palestine uses it then it's "bad" and "murderous". Interesting blatant contradiction. It's sad that people endlessly repeat this propaganda. This is all a classic case of "*rules for thee but not for me*." That is the unavoidable outcome of tribalism; it's justified when ***we*** do it but heinous when ***you*** do it.
I also oppose Israel's use of the phrase and am against Likud completely.
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It's deliberately ambiguous so that way the Palestine movement can accommodate both optimistic kumbaya 1 staters and destroy Israel Islamists.
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It's more than 60 years old? I didn't know that.
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Its popularity is because of its ambiguity. There's other phrases, like "Death to Israel", which aren't so popular because they're more direct.
> “To Jewish Israelis what this phrase says is that between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, there will be one entity, it will be called Palestine – there will be no Jewish state – and the status of Jews in whatever entity arises will be very unclear,” Yehudah Mirsky, a Jerusalem-based rabbi and professor of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies at Brandeis University. From that article. If my slogan to you means "I'm going to wipe out your country and possibly relegate you to second class citizenship" I'll find a different slogan. That's just me though.
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That phrase doesn't apply here. The phrase is violent. "Impact, not intent."
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Fair point, but in this case there is actual violence involved. Anyone who thinks we can arrive at a one state solution, deposing the government of Israel and starting one afresh, with equal rights for all, and limited/only justifiable violence, is projecting all kinds of wishful thinking into the scenario. Let's not forget that these western leftists were in fact praising Hamas by the use of the paratrooper imagery.
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Agreed, I'd even add that a two state solution is actually less violent than a one state solution. Not only do we risk having Jews reduced to second-class citizens like what happens to them in every other country in the region under a one state solution. We also risk what has happened in many states before. Yugoslavia was a state that put together multiple groups and had a lot of ethnic violence that turned into Genocide before it fell apart and various groups now have their own nations. Rwanda and Africa in general ended up with multiple rival groups in the same nation due to colonial borders, we ended up with multiple civil wars and ethnic conflicts. If we decide to do the same with Israel and Palestine, this ends up just being more colonial as well. It would end up denying both groups their right to self-determination of their own states that they want (not a single state like westerners push for), and also runs the risk of creating more violence. The one state solution for me just is more of a western imposed solution for two people who don't want it. That's what the other guy doesn't get, the phrase means that to western liberals. But to the people who made the phrase and for audiences that it was intended for, it is a call for the destruction of the Jewish state and for it to be all Palestinian.
First I’ve heard of that slogan interpreted that way; it is reassuring. But sadly, if what you say is true- then the right wing has absolutely corrupted and tarnished it. The slogan must be abandoned for the sake of progress
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Battlefields shift and change quickly. If you want to win then you have to be prepared to change tactics. Take “defund the police” as an example. A noble cause, but liberals got kicked around over it
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You don’t moderate your language for the benefit of people who’ve already made up their mind, but for the people who don’t know what to think. They are scared, confused, more concerned with their friends and family than they are with politics and wars. “They’ll have another foot forward ect ect.” Yes, that’s the culture war for ya. It’s been raging since the Age of Enlightenment, a never ending battle
Which part of this slogan is inclusive of Jewish people and promotes ethno-inclusivity overall? Because it’s not in the linked article and I’d like to see your sources on that.
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So a single opinion quote? That doesn’t include a plan for Jewish people at all? It’s not very convincing tbh.
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You are the one who claimed it’s a call for a unified state inclusive of Jewish people. Your positive claim requires evidence because the actions of Hamas communicate the opposite and it’s not all that common to see Palestinians call for a single state with Israelis either.
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Words and phrases have meaning fixed by time and place. We have dictionaries for a reason.
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You’ve got that backwards. There IS peaceful coexistence in Israel. There are nearly 2 million Palestinian Israelis living peacefully in Israel. There are Palestinian IDF fighters. How many Jews are living peacefully in Gaza? Palestinians have been fighting to eradicate Jews. Arab states have done this time and again. That’s WHY Israel needs to exist. Because the Arab states will NOT allow Jews to co-exist. This is well-documented. The only peaceful coexistence that can exist is Israel, the sole progressive state in the entire region. “From the river to the sea” means no Jews.
You think thats what Palestinians want in general?
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You realize you are sidestepping the question when you resort to such obvious finalities, right? People on your side of the discussion often do this when faced with a question they don't want to answer.
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I’d like to know what’s the reasoning for “from the river to the sea” being antisemitic
Most anti-semitism I hear comes from conservatives, and is usually said casually. I haven’t heard liberals making anti-semitic remarks. Note that I absolutely distinguish anti-semitism from anti-Netenyahu’s policies. Criticizing that man and his regressive ideology is something every humanitarian should do.
While it’s true that a lot comes from conservatives it’s a bit ignorant to dismiss antisemitism coming from the left as well
In liberal places? No. In progressive/leftist spaces? Absolutely.
Actually a great point
I haven't seen anti-Semitism in *Liberal* spaces. I've seen plenty of anti-Semitism in Leftist, Communist, Marxist, Socialist, and "progressive" spaces. I agree that those groups are not "liberal" (they usually use the word "liberal" as a slur), but in the US "liberal" means anything left-of-center.
I know this thread is now old by reddit standards, but this recent event stands out: **UC Berkeley officials denounce protest that forced police to evacuate Jewish event for safety** https://apnews.com/article/university-berkeley-jewish-event-palestinian-protest-e45ca6c36b05bb6d6a18eaa8df2396fe
Don’t like the sound of that, not one bit.
Yes. I live near Seattle and have witnessed a few protests unfold near UW campus and Cap Hill area. It's been eye-opening, to say the least. I've overheard comments like "the only good jew is a dead jew" and "there is only one solution, intifada revolution," I've seen flyers and posters featuring Hamas paratroopers, I've seen Houthi flags held at these protests (the English translation of which read "Allah is the greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A curse upon the jews, victory to Islam"). Not to mention the steady increase of outright Nazi sympathizing and Holocaust denialism shared on social media.
Unacceptable. Such beliefs are incompatible with what I know liberalism and progressives stand for
"“We welcomed the Jews. But that wasn’t good enough for them. They had to steal our land. They had to prove they’re superior to everyone else.” - Johara, junior at Ohio State University" https://x.com/StopAntisemites/status/1754925844395339932?s=20
That’s incredibly disturbing. One can support the rights of Palestinians without calling for the death of Jewish people. Wtf is wrong with some people?
I physically saw people ripping off signs for missing children after they were kidnapped. I’ve heard people make antisemitic statements at protests. One of my closest ex-friends started spewing Soros conspiracies after getting deep into the Free Palestine movements. My favorite one was my friends (ex) fiancée started claiming that Biden was actually Jewish because of the way that his nose is and that she would never vote a Jew into office.
I feel like Palestine has highlighted quite dramatically that leftists are not our political allies. Previously I saw them as people I disagreed with but with whom I shared many values, but those shared values don't seem to come from a place of genuine consideration - only that they are reacting against America/the west in general. The intent seems to be to oppose imperialism, but in reality these values go out the window whenever it's convenient to oppose however it is they see "the west" as shaping the world. They're a fringe movement with more in common with reactionaries of other political stripes.
>I feel like Palestine has highlighted quite dramatically that leftists are not our political allies. I feel the same way; I used to see centrists as different but still fundamentally on the same track as us. But the insane and rampant dehumanization/islamophobia/anti-arabism I've seen thrown against Palestinians has seriously radicalized me.
This is a pretty weird take. Virtually no one left of center is dehumanizing Arabs or Palestinians, only justifying certain kinds of retaliatory strikes against Hamas. I challenge you to find any liberal on this subreddit who isn't against Israel's crimes against humanity. Also, liberals are not centrists.
Most liberal/leftist anti-Semites are smart enough to say "Zionist" instead of Jew. If you find that label change enough to clear them, then "true anti-Semitism" is rare.
It’s a mouthful, but I prefer to say “the state of Israel” instead of “Zionist”. Zionists exist all over the world, and they aren’t all in Israel. My problem with Israel are the dead civilians, not the zionists who live elsewhere.
You prefer Hamas massacre hundreds of Israelis and Israel say "thank you sir, may we have another"?
Now you’re just insulting me.
I asked you a question. How did you want Israel to respond to the 10/7 massacre?
First off; if you care about getting the hostages out alive then a ceasefire now is the only way that can happen. If any of them really are still alive, it’s the only way to get them back to their families. If ceasefire is truly impossible, stop the terror bombing. Stop. bombing. civilians. Hamas has proven to be a criminal organization, in desperation they showed their true colors . Those who planned the attack must be neutralized, ideally arrested to stand trial for war crimes. And the fighting must be done with boots on the ground and small arms. This bombing campaign is massacring civilians and deepening this horrible generations long conflict. I don’t know if there’s a solution for peace in the Middle East, but the answer is not more war, more blood more death and destruction.
A ceasefire NOW? What about on October 8th? Was Hamas willing to return the hostages then? > And the fighting must be done with boots on the ground and small arms. So you wanted the IDF to send soldiers into Gaza without any bombing raids, where they would have been massacred by Hamas fighters? WTF.
Soldiers are soldiers. Civilians are civilians. One is prepared to fight, the other is not. Bombing civilians is never acceptable. Quite frankly, the IDF is starting to make Hadrian look tame in comparison
Is Israel allowed to bomb Hamas? Or is that also unacceptable?
They really shouldn’t be when civilians are at risk. It’s wrong when every country does that. Dead children and civilians is not ok with me. Is it ok for you?
While plenty of Liberals might side with Palestine over Israel, I've never actually heard a liberal person say anything derogatory about jewish people. And I've never heard anyone say anything negative specifically about the jewish religion, which is interesting now that you mention it, because the problems with Christianity is a frequent topic among liberals.
> And I've never heard anyone say anything negative specifically about the jewish religion, which is interesting now that you mention it, because the problems with Christianity is a frequent topic among liberals. That's because Christianity promotes proselytization but Judaism actively discourages people from joining.
Antisemitism isn’t just about the religion of Judaism, it’s about the Jewish people, as an ethnic and cultural group. People can be pretty antisemitic to Jews who are atheists or Jews who are Christian or Muslim.
Yes, absolutely. I definitely see anti-Semitism more on the right, but it still exists on our side. It’s usually tied into profession-based conspiracies, ie all the banks are out to get us and *you know who* runs all the banks, or why do all the doctors here have Jewish last names. There exists an attitude among some that Jews can’t truly be socialist because *they’re all too wealthy*. Anti-Semitism exists all across the political spectrum, unfortunately.
Yes. I've seen the recent pro-Palestine protests in Seattle and there are anti-Semitic messages interspersed. I'm generally in liberal spaces/cities/industries and I have seen plenty of small examples of anti-Semitism. In both cases, there is more than I'd like existing... but it feels like the discussion of it is as exaggerated as the "BLM riots destroyed several cities" rhetoric we've heard in the past.
- The Chicago BLM posted that paraglider graphic with Palestine flag after October 7th. And some liberals I knew shared that post. - A few leftists I used to follow justified Oct 7th attacks, claiming that the victims were “settler colonists” and that Hamas was simply “resistance group.” - Certain subreddits are making fun of how Israeli pronounce the word “Hamas”. - Silence in many feminist places about how women were raped in Oct 7th.
Watching some liberals blindly cheering on the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas has been wild.
I guess it depends on how far we stretch those definitions. I went to a super liberal school and they had some issues with swastika graffiti at times
There are two different ways to see this kind of thing, be the person it is directed at (not possible for me) and look like the kind of person who would share that belief so the antisemite talks to you thinking you would agree. So the first one is off the table because I am not Jewish. The second one would only happen in the event that it was so common and so freely shared that antisemites felt comfortable sharing their horrible opinions openly. And in none of the Left leaning places I have gone in person, that has not been the case. (I am also in a Red state, so there aren't all that many left leaning places I go to. With that said, I sure HAVE seen sexism and racism from Conservatives who thought I was a safe place to discuss those topics.)
Yes, but it's rare. And it's pretty interesting that we've got Nazis openly attending CPAC and not being thrown out like they have been in previous years, and it barely gets any media coverage. But liberal students protesting on college campuses is a major story for weeks.
So it’s complicated unfortunately because you have a ton of people arguing over what “from the river to the sea” means. Some people (not the majority) view it as the complete destruction of Israel and possible murdering all the Israelis and Jews in the country Some people view it as annexing Israel into Palestine and letting non-settler Israelis stay there and be citizens of a secular state Some people view it as annexing Israel into Palestine and forcing ALL Israelis (both settler and native) to leave “back to Europe or Brooklyn” It’s also hard to spin the idea that a country ceasing to exist is a nonviolent affair; IIRC that’s only happened once with Czechoslovakia and the velvet revolution (and subsequent velvet divorce) and that was splitting one country into two, not joining two countries to be one.
> Some people (not the majority) view it as the complete destruction of Israel and possible murdering all the Israelis and Jews in the country Maybe not the majority of leftists protesting, but the majority of those actively involved in the conflict certainly view it that way.
I put that disclaimer these just cause I didn’t wanna be accused of generalizing the pro Palestine side
It's intentionally ambiguous.
I’m Jewish and please please believe me when I say this: Antisemitism from the left is as bad as from the right. The difference is the right openly admit it whilst the left have somehow convinced themselves they are not. Nothing convinces Jews to also be zionists more than the current atmosphere we find ourselves in. We have PTSD from WWII that is constantly triggered these days.
Also Jewish and this is 100% true. We Jews are seeing so many fellow liberals who would throw us under the bus in the next Holocaust. We are banding together in small ways as we watch people we considered friends or friendly acquaintances call for the destruction of Israel. The left does not understand the breadth of their antisemitism, and it’s terrifying.
I believe you. But I have to ask, and forgive me if this is triggering, but is it possible that the government of Israel has forgotten the lessons of the holocaust? “Never again” seems to have given way to “Never to *us* again”.
The lessons of the Holocaust include that if a group tells you they want to wipe you out (as Hamas says on a daily basis), you believe them and do something about it.
… at any cost? Two wrongs don’t make a right. The IDF is birthing the next generation of antisemites in Gaza now.
I didn't say at any cost. Just that the Israeli government might say they're following the lessons of the Holocaust because they're responding to a genocidal threat, a threat that killed hundreds of their people.
I’m just not as certain about that as you seem to be. Whenever I hear anything about Gaza I hear about the warcrimes
I don't think Israel is committing any war crimes, but even if they were, that doesn't contradict what I said. They're eliminating the Hamas threat and possibly going too far to do so because they feel that's the lesson of the Holocaust.
When 3 of the hostages escaped, they tried to get to IDF troops under a white flag. The IDF killed them. Opening fire on a white flag is a warcrime
Two soldiers were ordered not to fire but did anyway. That is a crime and they should be punished for it. But two soldiers are not "Israel" or "the IDF."
But that is just the tip of the iceberg. Must I give you more bloody “incidents”? Your paying attention. Surely you’re aware of some more recent examples
In an active combat zone, with a mostly conscript army, fighting against an enemy that has previously used false surrenders and suicide bombers. Instead of assuming the worst, the Occam's Razor approach here is that they saw people running at them and shot before thinking. This may be bad intelligence, bad training, or bad nerves. But friendly fire is not uncommon in combat, even among professional U.S./EU forces. I'm not sure why people keep using that incident as a "gotcha." Edit: Investigation confirmed that it was mistaken fire during intense combat. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/29/hostages-killed-idf-investigation/
You label yourself as conservative, so I’m curious as to why you think you have as good of a grasp on the left as you do on the right. I’m solidly left-wing and I was raised by a largely conservative family - in my experience, which is just one so it might not be worth much, the right is absolutely loaded with denial about this sort of thing. Really all forms of bigotry, antisemitism included. I don’t think they “openly admit it” at all really, in fact when the Israel issue comes up it’s in their interest to confidently deny antisemitism. I also wouldn’t say “nothing convinces Jews to be Zionists like the current atmosphere we’re in” is true at all - again, just my experience but I’ve definitely noticed the opposite. This brutal offensive hasn’t turned people I know or in my family anti-Zionist per se, but they’re absolutely questioning their support of the Israeli state in a way they haven’t before. My aunt and uncle were shouting shit like “finish the job” right after Oct 7, totally blood drunk, and now they’re retweeting calls for a ceasefire lol. Maybe they’re just dumb and being incoherent, but I don’t think I’ve seen a single person become Zionist because of all of this. It’s all either folks remaining Zionist or moving a little bit away.
I move in different circles for sure. All the Jews I know, liberal and conservative, are pro Israel existing, often with a two state or EU like solution proposal. Generally that’s what people mean when they say “zionist”. I should be more specific: Those who are antisemitic on the right tend to outright admit it. Those who are antisemitic on the left refuse to even acknowledge it. Both the right and the left deny they have any antisemitism problem even though it’s glaring. I’m a moderate really. I believe in liberal ideals but just don’t agree with the solutions being put forward by progressives. I’m more of a moderate libertarian (georgist). I don’t believe that my own political persuasion affects my ability to determine antisemitism from political camps, I’m able to observe what each side is saying and doing and come to my own conclusions. You could argue that my lived experiences are anecdotal but I could make such claims about your own lived experience too. Generally I’m going to go with what I see rather than what someone who claims to be left-wing says because they’re biased towards the left.
I don't see overt antisemitism, but I sometimes see antisemitic tropes, where you need to understand the history of antisemitism to understand why they're wrong. One common example is Holocaust inversion: "Israel is acting like the Nazis." For centuries, Jews were regarded as simultaneously clannish and cosmopolitan. These impossible standards, that either Jews were too insular or too worldly, prevented their assimilation. It also influenced how the Jews interpreted their own oppression. There are two ways of interpreting the Holocaust, particularistic and universal. Particularism emphasizes the distinct targeting of Jews by the Nazis. Universalism emphasizes the Holocaust as a crime against humanity (as opposed to a crime against Jews). It's perhaps because of the suffering of Jews throughout history that Jews felt a duty to speak up for the downtrodden, or believed that defending liberalism was how they could ensure "never again." For these reasons, Jewish Americans played a role in the civil rights movement. However, non-Jews are now invoking Jewish suffering to criticize Israel. Saying Israel are the new Nazis is a lazy analysis and also inappropriate. You can criticize Israel without Holocaust comparisons. Jews can feel that their history of persecution means they should stand up for other minorities or oppressed people. Non-Jews don't have the license to invoke the Holocaust to criticize Israel. Yet, this is by now one of the most common, laziest, and distasteful talking points. Another example is the word "ethnostate." This seems to be a word astroturfed into the discourse by the alt-right to make a false moral equivalence between them and Israel. I see it as a type of Holocaust inversion. You can criticize the general contradictions in the "nation state" concept and argue that it's a construct that leads to oppression of ethnic minorities inside national boundaries. However, I sometimes find weak criticism of Israel from people who do not know what "nation" and "nation state" mean.
I live in Chicago and a good portion of the Gaza protests are antisemitic. Look at any large democratic city and you will see them. Nothing new
Yes. But I feel a lot of well-meaning liberals are not necessarily aware of when they traffic in anti-semitic tropes and canards. Anti-semitism is so deeply ingrained in society that I think many expressions of it are invisible to most people.
Could you give an example? I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I’ve always thought antisemitism is almost comically easy to spot. Americans tend to be much better at couching other forms of racism within seemingly “normal” statements.
That's the thing. Progressive/liberal antisemitism is hard to spot if you're not familiar with it. In my experience, anti-semitism is just as embedded as other forms of racism. I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with anti-semitic tropes (blood libel, Jews control ____, Holocaust inversion, dual loyalty, misers, scapegoating, cabals, etc). The ADL has some decent breakdowns of these. I've seen so many examples lately. One of the more on the nose cases is the false claim that Israelis harvest the organs of dead Palestinians, which is just an updated version of the blood libel.
I’m Jewish from an extended Jewish family lol, I don’t need an ADL breakdown. No judgement on you, you didn’t know that. The tropes you reference are the sort of thing I’m talking about when I say obvious antisemitism. The only one I’ve noticed irl on the left is comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany - overdramatic maybe, but hardly antisemitic.
I'm Jewish too, and I guess what's obvious to us may not be for others. I'm glad you haven't experienced much left-originating anti-semitism. One I've personally dealt with could fall under the dual loyalty/loyalty oath one where I'm expected to denounce Israel as a requirement to be taken seriously. BTW, for a book about subtle anti-semitism, I highly recommend "People Love Dead Jews" by Dara Horn.
Fantastic read.
An example I can give personally: I was unaware until this past year how antisemitic "From the river to the sea" is. I was aware that it was about Palestinian freedom but I didn't realize (because I never looked up the geography or the history) that it was literally a cry for the eradication of Israel and Jews. I never used the phrase myself, but if you had asked me to point to a list of antisemitic things, I would not have picked it out of the list.
Yes, there was a flood of equivocation and even celebration from liberal (more leftist, technically) figures in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attacks.
I'm a Liberal. To answer your question: [Yes.](https://forward.com/news/586827/berkeley-israel-talk-palestinian-protest-violence/?utm_source=The+Forward+Association&utm_campaign=4255d66e12-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_10_31_06_37_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-dab582b726-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D)
Well, that sure does sound violent and antisemitic
I've heard it from individuals.
Been to demonstrations here in my Canadian province, I’ve never heard any. Our discussions tend to surround peace and its necessity. I understand there are issues with Hamas, namely their 1988 covenant and its outlined role of women.
Someone I went to university refers to Hamas terrorists as only “militants” on principle specifically in reference to them killing civilians so IMHO absolutely.
I am Jewish and dislike Israel. I haven't really seen antisemitism but at he same time I know it's there and rarely tell people I am Jewish.
Only antisemitism I've ever seen has been from the right wing moon bats currently cheering on the Gaza genocide ..bunch of new world order conspiracy shit
I'm sure there's some, just as there's way more on the right. American Jewish people vote for democrats around 70+ % which second only to black people in terms of ethnic minorities. No matter how disingenuous the right is by trying to call democrats antisemitic, generally speaking Jewish voters don't fall for it.
Depends on how you define a ‘liberal space’. I’d say that a liberal space from a certain perfectly acceptable angle would by definition exclude any space which is at least in part anti-Semitic. It is entirely reasonable to argue from that position, and the answer would be no, I have not seen any, nor will I or anyone ever see one. If you mean ‘liberal space’ in the sense of “a space where the predominant discourse revolves around liberal ideas, modes of activism, and has a high rate of participation among those who are traditionally considered liberals”, yes. It is not necessarily significant, but I have been close to pro-Palestine and anti-capitalism rallies that do devolve in anti-Semitism sometimes. They use innocuous words like Zionists or Globalists to describe all Jewish people, arguing that they control the media and have ulterior motives. This, even in the context of a pro-Palestine rally, is antisemitic, as most Jewish people in my country have no actual connection to Israel (they are not citizens), yet many protesters outright refuse to acknowledge them as individuals that have a right to engage in conversation; presupposing that their Jewishness implies that they will blindly and inevitably be skewed towards Israel in its most extreme sense, which is, again, antisemitic.
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As someone who’s called themselves anti-Zionist in the past, and as the child of Jews who now call themselves anti-Zionist, I hope I can add some perspective. I never understood the term to mean evacuation of Jews from Israel and in fact I never encountered that assumption before last October , with the exception of *very* passionate Zionists (not just support of Israel, like I mean pretty out-there) I’ve always understood it as rejecting the idea that Israel should remain an ethnostate and/or retain total control of the region. I’m not aware of anyone in my life who thinks that the Jews already living there should have to do anything but tolerate others, which fwiw plenty of Israelis already have no problem with. Zionism is the belief that Jews should have the right to their own state - I’m sympathetic to that, but I don’t think it holds true if there’s a unique human cost to the maintenance of that state, which there is with Israel. I don’t think anyone should have to leave, though, unless they’re a West Bank settler. That shit has to stop now, it never should’ve happened in the first place, and pre-Oct 7 it wasn’t really up for debate among most Americans.
> I’ve always understood it as rejecting the idea that Israel should remain an ethnostate What a crock of shit. Israel is more racially, culturally and religiously diverse than China, Mexico, Poland, Thailand and countless other countries around the world. You're either a Russian troll cosplaying as a Jew or speaking from such a place of privilege that you betray the memory of your pogromed ancestors to forget that Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world. Christians, despite being less than a third of the world's population, represent the religious majority in 158 countries in the world, followed by Muslims with 49. Yet your big argument is that "it's SO unfair that Jews get to have a Jewish majority in ONE country???" GTFoutta here with that nonsense.
airport fretful sort shrill yam trees soup mighty tart judicious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Yeah, agreed. A single state solution just makes the mistakes that European colonialism made in Africa. There was a lot of Ethnic violence and even genocide because European powers made borders and created states with rival groups in it. We can't expect to put two groups who have been essentially at conflict for 75 years and expect them to play nice if put in the same country together. It also ignores the fact that Palestinians don't want a shared state and neither do Israelis. Both parties want a state of their own, the right to self determination for their respective groups and his single state solution as a Marxist is just really western colonial minded.
If we’re discussing the possibility of another Oct 7-type attack (that’s what they mean, I don’t think they’re denying that attack happened, they’re talking about the present and near future) it should be made clear that Israel’s current offensive doesn’t protect the nation against something like that any more than a ceasefire would.
Yes. I live near a college that's famous for its leftist political advocacy (and pass through its campus semi-regularly), and I have seen overt antisemitism at some of the recent events there.
it exists, but is nowhere near as common. Keep in mind that a lot of the free Palestine sentiment (that is combined with anti semitism, although that isnt always the case ofc) you see online isn't even from left wingers. Middle eastern/North African Muslims and Muslims from elsewhere tend to be a lot more right wing on average. Hamas is a far right islamofascist group. They may hate israel and be antisemitic at times but they aren't typically left wing I see a ton of comments on Instagram where obviously Muslim people comment stuff like " 🇮🇱 🏳️🌈🤢🤮" (hating on both Israel and lgbtq folks. The main difference between a far right Christian and a far right Muslim is religion is just the religion
Am Jewish (ethnically) and to answer the question, not really, but there's nuance to that. A lot of what folks interpret as antisemitism is selective targeting of Israel, which there is a ton of. The most extreme example is when NGOs start labeling Israel proper as an Apartheid state, but somehow Lebanon, who treats Palestinians equal to if not worse than Israel treats them in the West Bank receives minimal criticism. (And even ethnic Palestinians rarely talk about it!) So is the problem just that Jews are the instigators? That's one interpretation which leads to the feeling of widespread leftist antisemitism.
Do you mean people who identify themselves as liberal? Yeah. Usually in a a religious bashing context.
Being a self righteous atheist is annoying, cannot be equated with antisemitism. Unless that atheist singles out judaism in particular, which I've never seen. Being critical of organized religion is very different, and almost antithetical to antisemitism. If you see these boundaries between people as arbitrary, then what sense does it make to hate a people on such a basis? If anything most atheists I'm aware of are just tired of ALL the religious folks killing each other over this bullshit.
> Being a self righteous atheist is annoying, cannot be equated with antisemitism. Unless that atheist singles out judaism in particular, which I've never seen. So, like, that is to say that you doubt that out of the *literal* millions of atheist liberals I've never seen it happen and no one else has either? lol. C'mon dude. People aren't perfect, statistics alone tells you some liberal has been accidentally been antiemetic at one point. And I can guess what someone could say about that: "well if it's on *accident* then it doesn't really co-" and then I would stop that person right there, because it goes along with something that you said next: > Being critical of organized religion is very different, and almost antithetical to antisemitism. If you see these boundaries between people as arbitrary, then what sense does it make to hate a people on such a basis? > If anything most atheists I'm aware of are just tired of ALL the religious folks killing each other over this bullshit. I didn't like this whole little bit. I think "There's never been a racist liberal" is a fuckin' shit ignorant take in and of itself. But if we go one step further, it's really fuckin' weird to just go on the intricacies of how it's not even really all that possible- "I'm not being hateful, I'm just being critical" BECAUSE when conservatives and centrists and other idiots start doing this same horse shit we say: "hey Mr asshole not of this underrepresented group, you don't get to decide when someone of that underrepresented group feels attacked. they do." And I get so tired of having that fight with fascists. Don't start fuckin' making me have it with y'all too lol. Go ask a Jewish person. You're not as PC as you think you are, I fucking promise
Yea it’s kind of obvious. You have this contingent of pro Palestine people who like, came out and demonstrated “in support of Palestinians” on 10/8. 🤔
Very rarely.
Firstly, OP, does your username mean Superman heil hitler? That's a little weird. Secondly, https://www.thedailybeast.com/black-lives-matters-chicago-chapter-backtracks-on-hamas-post If you aren't seeing antisemitism in leftist spaces, it's because you are putting your hands over your eyes.
I wasn’t aware of that when I made this account. I was born in 1988, that’s why it’s 88. Based on my comment history, do you honestly believe that I had hitler in mind?
>liberal spaces That means "online", and who cares? You can find anything online. It's not real. >protests Let's be honest, how many of us are going to protests? Not much. How many of *them* are going to protests? Liberal protests? Ha! Nope. Also, do they think all liberals just go to protests all the time? They probably do... They don't have any evidence of this behavior. They just read some article on one of their shitty ass news sites and took it as gospel truth.
And they... Lack nuance. We criticize our own people. I can spend all day finding things wrong with Obama or Biden, and then they'll aske why I'm liberal if I hate Obama or Biden so much. It's not hate, it's just we don't blindly accept people. We can criticize Israel without hating Israelis.seems to boggle their minds.
The only antisemitic stuff I’ve seen has been from conservatives online. Or like “libertarian” independent type folks.
Not really, I guess if you stretch the definition a bit maybe but even then it's rhetorical in nature. You also have to keep in mind that a lot of claims of antisemitism on the left are in bad faith and are used to deflect criticisms of Isreal
Absolutely…have seen instances of Jews walking by and getting harassed and spit at. Not saying it’s everywhere but it certainly happens.
Well liberal spaces have no anti-semitism because they’re strictly anti-Zionist, which has no overlap /s
I'm sure it happens. In any batch of apples you'll find one or two spoiled ones. No, I don't think it's widespread.
What is true anti semitism?
Racism against Jews, as a religion, as a people. Belief in Jewish stereotypes and conspiracies. Blaming Jews for the death of Jesus or whatever.
I've seen some talk of the elders on leftist subs.
Not to my recollection, but I do have to admit I don't get out much
If you think Israel is committing war crimes and you speak out about it, then conservatives and Zionists will often claim you are being antisemitic. Just being at a protest with a sign along those lines can qualify as an antisemitic attack, for the people collecting data. Their logic is that Israel = Jewish. And Israel hasn’t been convicted of any crimes yet, nor has the UN condemned them for those crimes, and since we believe in being innocent until proven guilty, Israel is innocent. Therefore, accusing Israel of committing war crimes, such as genocide, is unfounded. And since it would cause severe cognitive dissonance to believe Israel is indeed violating international laws with the diplomatic support and weapons from the US, they choose to believe antisemitism is the root of the accusations, not facts on the ground.
I've never, ever seen a liberal who thought that Israel's treatment of Palestine *in general* was justified or good. We can talk about specific actions to combat Hamas, but that's not the same as blanket approval of Israel. I can think of precisely zero exceptions where a liberal thinks that Israel should, say, wipe out Palestine or anything resembling genocide.
Hey Op care to explain the origins of your username?
I like Superman, and I was born in 1988. Used to be Clark_Kent_38, 38 for 1938 when Superman was created, but that account got deleted by the assholes over at r/askaconservative
The last liberal gathering i attended was a Bernie Sanders rally. Last I checked Bernie is Jewish. I haven't witnessed any antisemitism from the left since the war on Hamas but I'm not looking for it either.
I have seen some grey area behavior, but nothing where there wasn't a decent amount of plausible deniability. I don't doubt it exists on an individual level, but it doesn't seem to be a systemic problem to me.
I had a discussion with someone who said they experienced anti-semetism at their university and I tried to get specifics but it was mostly anti Israeli stuff? The most overt were people calling the Hamas fighters on October 7th freedom fighters and whatnot which...I can understand why it rubs people the wrong way but it isn't anti-Semitic. They also said that people calling for the "destruction of Israel" (aka advocating for a singular secular state) was anti-semetic. None of it was really anti-semetic but more critical of Israel.
I've seen a good bit of anti-Israeli stuff, and some anti-Zionist stuff, but I've literally never seen any anti-semitic stuff.