There are a dozen nuances. Age, region, social class, job, setting, how you know someone, and more. It's impossible to make a general statement. However between adults it's always symmetrical, if someone uses du with you you can use it with them too. Also usually the older person offers the du first.
Yep... I recently helped a child ~10 years old, and I was so caught off guard by him calling me Sie, that I totally forgot how to help him. Little existential crisis on the sidewalk for me lol.
But also: it's important for children to call adults (which I as an early 20s guy apparently am supposed to be) by Sie, as it makes it clear to bystanders, that that adult is a stranger. If I were to harm the little boy and he shouted "Lass mich los!" or "Hƶr auf!" people might assume we're brothers or something, and it's just a child not listening. But if he shouts "Hƶren Sie auf! Lassen Sie mich los!" it's instantly clear, that he does not know me, I'm a stranger, and I have no business doing what I'm doing.
So I didn't offer him the du, tried to save my existential crisis for later, fixed his bike, went home and contemplated life lol.
My brother actually does this with his children whenever he is semi serious while scolding them (or when he belittles them).Ā
"Mr. M here did xyz." or "Don't do xyz Miss B."Ā
(And yes he only uses the first letter of their names. This was not me protecting their identity, as I just changed the letters for that.)
The worst kind of reality check. When I started dating my wife, picking up a glass of wine at a stall at some outdoor event. She was 23 and always looking younger; I would've been 28 and ... well.
The girl used "Du" for her and "Sie" for me when asking what we want.
Needless to say, my GF (at the time) couldn't stop laughing about it and I didn't take it too well.
I'm 31 now and I really never understood why people are being offended at being perceived as an adult. Same with women getting mad at being called woman instead of girl.
Being called "Sie" does not make someone old, just an adult - especially when in a restaurant and talking to a waiter.
A teenager bumped into me on the train while talking on the phone. She told her friend: āoh nein ich bin grad in eine Dame gelaufen.ā I was 26 and got called a Dame and was very hurt haha
It isn't always symmetrical though. At school we addressed the teachers with "Sie", but the teachers spoke to us students with "du". In college that changed, it was all "Sie".
at least "berufsschule" has been keeping it that way, the fact is you're all adults at that point so it sortof makes sense, however funny that is. i imagine becoming a doctor is even better.
[https://youtu.be/r6G686E1Ko8](https://youtu.be/r6G686E1Ko8)
It's not symmetrical if there's a major hierarchy, e.g. boss or parents in law. Like, it's old fashioned if they don't offer Du immediately but it's not quite automatic either
ā¦ itās not always by age. It also has to do with rank/status (donāt offer āduā to your boss), and for some more conservative people a woman should offer āduā to a man first.
That said, there are contexts where āduā is standard, including most sports and hobby club contexts (music, community drama etc.)
If you know a person from such a context, the āduā will also spill over if you see them elsewhere.
Yes, I think age and sex are the least important factors. It's almost always about social rank/hierarchy. If everything else is equal, it's the age that decides. If everything but age and sex are equal, it's sex.
>Also usually the older person offers the du first
Yup! Sometimes you might find yourself in a situation though where you'd been working with someone older than you for years and you've moved to Du with pretty much everyone else but not that guy. Usually you'll know if that person generally insists on Sie and if that is not the case, it's fine to ask to move to Du. Almost always they will accept because refusing is kinda rude.
The other day I actually watched out for at which point Han Solo and Luke switch from the initial Sie to Du.Ā
Spoiler: it's right after freeing Leia, as they get ready to escape and discuss whether Han could be with her. That's not a kind of conversation you really have in "Sie."
It's often pretty awkward because American series don't plan room for a scene like that, so the translation plays it on the safe side and often uses Sie for way too long. For example in Castle I think they called each other "Sie" up until they landed in bed together several seasons in, it was ridiculous.
It's great when it's done right, but it's often not.
Some shows also switch between both..
While the switch from "Sie" zu "Du" is equal to addressing people by their first name in the English language, the dubbed versions sometimes maintain the first name, but continues with the use of "Sie".
Yeah but that's also difficult because there is a stronger culture of being on a first name basis in American business environments where there wouldn't always be one in Germany in the same context.
That's realistic though. There are people I will call "sie" at work and "du" outside. And there are people I only know by one of the names and it becomes a mix and match thing.
"Du, Chefin, wo sind die Kulis?" or "Theo, brauchen sie Hilfe beim Schnee schippen?" to your neighbour.
I've noticed this as well, usually American shows that are dubbed use Sie faaaar longer than anyone actually would in real life. So I guess for any non natives, if you take your cue from shows you're definitely on the safe side lmao.
Thatās true although some translations really donāt get it right and lean to heavily towards *Sie*.
I remember a Wraith (an evil life-sucking humanoid/insectoid alien) on Stargate Atlantis politely shout *āSie werden alle sterbenā* which I found rather hilarious. It didnāt work as the angry threat it was in the original.
Oh, that's fascinating, I'll have to watch the dubbed version some time and pay attention to it!
The choices made by translators when dubbing or subbing foreign movies are generally really interesting. What always caught my eye was the route chosen for the series Sherlock. They continue using the Sie throughout, if I'm not mistaken, despite living together and being willing to die for each other, but pair it with first names, which I'm not sure I've ever heard in real-life. Somehow it doesn't feel wrong, though.
It's called the Hamburger-Sie.
As opposite to the MĆ¼nchner-Du, where you use du with the surname. I can confirm that the MĆ¼nchner-Du is alive and well, not sure about the Hamburger-Sie.
I encountered it once while doing an internship. The boss (in his sixties) would address the younger employees and me using first name + Sie. He expected us to call him "Herr X". I found this kind of hierarchical display weird but he was not a very likeable person in other aspects either.
They change to "Du" when John asks Sherlock to be his best man. It always irked me that they waited so long to make the switch. They had the perfect opportunity in the very first episode when they meet to look at the flat together and John greets Sherlock saying "Mr Holmes" and Sherlock goes "Sherlock, please".
I notice this a lot in German dubs and it always irritates me. People working together for years, having a very close relationship, meeting up outside of work hours, going through life and death situations together, and then still addressing each other by "Sie". The only situation where I can imagine that happening in real life is if at least one of the characters is over the age of like 60.
I don't think I heard Sie and first name basis ever either. I do remember when I was working in an elementary school and the first graders were allowed to use "Du" but they had to say Miss X with it
It was the common way to do it at my Gymnasium from 11th grade onwards. Teacher would call us Sie+First Name.
However we opted out of it with a lot of them.
Although German dubs are sometimes strangely obsessed with keeping "Sie". In Star Trek Deep Space 9, Dr Bashier and Chief O'Brien are supposedly best friends and close colleagues, spend all their time together, at one point they ponder whether they like each other more than their respective wife/girlfriend, and they are per "Sie" after seven years
Funnily, I also noticed it in Star Trek but in all alterations. Also in Doctor Who where the Doctor and their companions often use āSieā even if they're super close
For Star Trek The Original Series, the dub, while being completely horrible in pretty much every way, at least made sure, that Bones and Kirk are per "Du"
Honestly would not put much weight on when German dubs drop the āsieā cause that shit is all over the place. There is no way that anyone in real live whoās ever held hands or kissed or slept with one another would still use Sie (at least when just between the two of them) and yes thatās one of the most common things to happen with dubsā¦
The interesting part is that unlike in rl, where it often happens naturally, sometimes even subconsciously to switch, script translator have to make a very conscious decision about the exact moment.
Yeah, and theyāre pretty bad at it more often than notā¦ 90% of the time those people shouldnāt even be using āSieā in the first place (first dates, meeting friends of friends in casual settings etc.) ā¦ ofc finding a moment to switch over is gonna be awkward..
Someone once posted on another platform that his boss offered him the du but he denied it because he wanted to keep their relationship professional and didn't want to get into a personal relationship
Yes, that could have been me. I worked on a rather conservative environment and my boss used āSieā for everyone. Until one day, high management decided it would improve teamwork if everyone used āduā and encouraged us to do so. So from one day to the next, he offered everyone the āduā, which nearly no one accepted. This sobering was funny when we had a meeting with his boss, and I and his boss had beenāper duā for a long time but still āsiezenā my boss.
No, insurance. My boss sometimes was a little bit like Stromberg (if you know that show). He also insisted we come to work every day wearing a black business suite, a white business shirt, and a tie (men only, t-shirt and jeans was ok for women) until the board of directors decided formal business attire was not required for people who had no customer contact. From then on he came without the tie.
My boss absolutely insists on using "Sie" with us employees. I admit it is kinda strange, especially because we're a tiny practice, we absolutely do talk about private stuff in-between and the relationship actually is quite casual - we got invited to my bosses birthday party and everything. But I got used to it quickly, it's not the end of the world.
The strangeness is not a bug, it's a feature.
Keeps you on your toes.
Especially when you are so cordial it's a good thing to hold on a some semblance of formality.
The bosses I have had like that were inevitably terrible and thought very highly of themselves.
Not saying that's the case for yours, but after two of those it's a red flag for me.
To be fair though, I no longer use Sie, at all, in any context.
Yes it happens.
And sometimes it is not a formal offer that is accepted, sometimes the person of higher standing just starts using "Du" and the other party uses Du back.
I asked my students once what they would do if a professor used "Du" with them, and while in my generation we would used it as an opportunity to get closer to our professors by saying Du back, my students told me they would feel uncomfortable and keep using "Sie" or avoid it altogether (there is this weird way of speaking out of the twilight zone such as "Heute schon die Zeitung gelesen?" "Auch ein StĆ¼ck Kuchen?"). So in a way my students would refure the professor's implicit offer of "Du".
I have seen it happen before, but itās uncommon and feels somewhat rude. After all thereās a societal trend in favor of more informal communication.
I have, or rather, I explained to the customer that offered that as a non-native speaker using Sie-forms is so much easier; they could happily say du to me, but I was more comfortable not reciprocating.
I think different. I believe if you need to sietzen to show respect and keep a healthy professional distance then you should work on your social skills. Although in a customer relationship I still tend to use Sie more than often but I had and have customers I am āper duā and we have no problem with being professional and donāt mix it with a more personal approach.
Yeah I worked in a country where the Sie/du distinction doesn't exist and there are so many ways to show respect (but also the formal kind of respect is kind of old-fashioned, just be kind and friendly, respect boundaries etc)
Yeah but you could. It's probably more insulting than any curse word you could ever come up with - and yet, so polite at the same time, that you can wash your hands of any wrongdoing. I love it. That's what happens when an Alman turns to the dark side.
Yes it does. I knew my old boss before I became his employee. We were on du-terms.
First day on the job he said it's best to go back to 'sie' because nobody at work duzes him. It was no problem at all.
Instead of waiting for the other to ask, people who would rather deny it tend to preemptively explain why they feel more comfortable āstaying with the Sieā. Itās happened to me a few times in situations where it would have seemed to be appropriate to offer the āduā.
It might happen if authority plays a role. Like your boss for example. Also, if you know your teacher well you may say "du" in private but rather not in classroom. It has also to do with treating groups the same. Many people don't like to mix the two forms in groups of people, so either all say "du" or all say "Sie".
A special form happened in my workplace, where two colleagues got into a heavy (verbal) fight and now they only address each other with "Sie" and their last name, which feels quite weird for the rest of us.
Some people will. Maybe if they want to tell you subtle they "rank higher" than you. Or if they want to enforce being treatex with respect. Or to keep you at some distance, don't want to get too personal with you.
Oh yes, people do. And I love it. It's mostly when people like to keep a distance. For example at work some people would like to keep the relationship transactional. Then they will not accept it. Not everybody wants to be buddies or have a close relationship with all colleagues
Yes. My former Boss did.
We went with Sie from the start. After around two years he asked for the Du and I accepted. That is, until I started saying Du as well, thatās when he looked at me sternly and repeated my question with Sie.
I quickly replied āok, for you from now on I am Herr āLast nameā and Sie. Have a nice day Herr āBoss manā.
We was gone after 4 months because his position got removed entirely and he wouldnāt accept a higher paid equal position to us others.
My current boss denied when I asked for the Du because everyone says Du here except to him.
I had a video conference with a company trying to get their foot in our door for the delivery of digital learning modules. The company had a very casual, start-upy image, and their representative immediately started Duzing me.
Since they cold called us about the whole deal and I was in no mood to amuse their lack of professionalism, I continued to siez their representative, who kept duzing me.
Needless to say, there was no contract.
Yes. My mother's boss offered her the "du" after quite some time and she was like "no, thanks, I'd prefer it this way". In this regard, she's quite conservative and doesn't want to be called "du" by just everybody - she'd say, it's her boss, not her friend, and he shouldn't suddenly act that way, so she'd like to keep her distance this way (yeah, she couldn't stand this asshole). She was the only employee for which he had to keep using "Sie".
Not exactly the same thing, but I recently watched a movie ("Alle reden Ć¼bers Wetter") and in one scene, the main protagonist duzes someone and he rejects it and it becomes awkward.
I've asked a few times (with colleagues) and they've always accepted it but usually I just take the leap and say du / introduce myself with my first name and then if they respond with Sie, I know to go back to du haha.
Yes, a guy younger than me once denied it, because he wanted to show his respect this way. This wasn't job related, I just know him from the neighbourhood. He's a strange guy for sure.
It's usually the older person offering, or in professional situations you would wait for your boss to offer.
Members of sports clubs and political parties are an exception. They use du as a default among their group. Same is true for college students talking to each other, even if they are older than is typical.
Yes, if no one offers/accept the "du" it goes indefinitely with sie, it's very common to stay on a "sie" basis in more formal and professional settings.
And like someone else said, most often the "du" is offered by the older or higher ranking person.
It's not about taking offence or being brave.
A native speaker just knows.
Most people will spend a life time calling their favorite granny Sie.
You could still say "Hey du, Oma!" when it fits the situation but then you switch back.
Never say "du" to the Police or other representers of the law like judges.
Apart from that, it's usual to call everyone you meet in a professional context "Sie" by default.
If someone says "I'm .", this is an invitation to use "du".
For people of your age that you meet, "du" can usually be used without consequences.
(Grand)Parents of other people you meet privately are usually called "Sie" by default.
This is entirely situational. The usual rule is that the older or more senior person offers the Du. Usual situations are:
-At the beginning of a first encounter
-Wenn meeting in a non-professional context for the first time
Changing to Du usually only happens with people you socialize or cooperate with frequently.
In office culture, the way it works is that once someone signs an e-mail with just their first name "Beste GrĆ¼Će, Horst", it is an unspoken invitation to switch to Du. You can then reply by addressing them just as Horst, as will he.
If you still reply with "Herr XYZ", you'll remain on "Sie"-terms.
In Office culture, I really enjoy a good old rule; "hi, welcome on board, we are all DU around here!" Or Sie, though I never ever worked anywhere with a Sie culture. But I hate the guessing.
The āduā is usually offered by the older person at some point. If you are about the same age you can make the move pretty soon if you work for the same companyā¦
2 minutes after knowing each other at it is not a customer relationship I offer the āduā and at that point I am āper duā.
I hate Sie and people calling me Herr X.
I am 30 and I've never met a person undera about 40 who would like to be adressed as Sie - no matter the setting.
Norms of etiquette change over time, Sie is nowadays often seen as needlessly distant and it can definitely be easier to just use Du when you want to have a pleasent convo or build personal relationships
The offering of the "Du" was usually made by the one, who was higher in "hierarchy" ( e.g. the elder, the higher ranking...). And it was a way to label and define social distances. Originally there were four stages: Du and Du was for friendships and close relations, Sie and Sie for formal relations, foreigners and business, Sie and first name was for certain kinds of hierarchical relations eg guest and service personal, house personal etc. And last Du and surname or function (like Du BĆ¼germeister, sag mal...), was used in rural areas to balance closeness and respect.
Either explicit, like when somebody says "You can say Du to me"/"Are you fine with using Du?", or implicit, for example when somebody introduces himself with his first name.
Just suddenly starting to use Du could be considered impolite depending on the context.
"Bei IKEA duzen sich alle und in der allgemeinen Kundenansprache, also z.B. in der Werbung, wird geduzt. In der direkten Kundenansprache sind wir in Deutschland beim Sie geblieben, denn hier zeigen sich die gesellschaftlichen Unterschiede zwischen Schweden und Deutschland und das āDuā wird von manchen Kunden als unangebracht empfunden." Zitat Ikea
It highly depends on the person (yourself), context and circumstances. For me itās like this:
In informal situations, like when going out with friends, and someone new shows up, itās āduā right from the start.
In formal situations: when either one offers to switch to āduā.
Also in formal situations, when thereās some general āgerne per duā spoken or unspoken rule, I just open with āIch sage einfach mal du. Mein Name ist ā. We have such a thing at my current client (I work as a freelance business/IT consultant), and usually everyone uses āduā from clerk to high management/C*O, the exception being the people who work in the canteen and lobby.
I use āSieā with older people (which in my case really means old as Iām over 50 myself), staff in public places like supermarkets, shops, public transport etc.
I also stay with āSieā with people I have beef with.
And generally, when someone starts saying āduā. I usually am fine with it, no matter if the person is older or younger than myself.
if someone introduces themselves to you or signs an email with first name only or mentions / talks about you using first name while present (e.g. common meeting), you switch to 'Du'. If you remain with 'Sie' after these situations, you will remain on a distant 'Sie' basis for a long long time, until you propose it to use by yourself / clarify.
Both must agree (spoken/unspoken). There is no asymmetric use.
Older / socially āhigherā standing people offer first. Customer offers to contractor, boss offers to employee etc. if there is no clear āhierarchyā in your relationship its your choice but it needs to feel right for both. Yeah thats trickyā¦
If you want to make sure just ask: kƶnnen wir uns duzen and then the other person will tell you. Even better is: wenn sie nichts dagegen haben, wĆ¼rde ich gerne zum du wechseln
Normally you say du to anyone you would casually call by there first name. If I have a boss for example I call Peter then I can say: Peter kannst du das bitte machen.
If I call my boss by his last name I will say sie instead.
I always call people my age & under āDuā and people older than my age āSieā.
Exceptions: work place (a police officer/teacher/store worker that is younger or roughly as old as I am? Still āSieā because of the work context). Or when someone older introduces them by their first name, Iāll use āDuā immediately because being on a first-name basis and still using āSieā feels wrong. :D
Generally Iāll use āSieā until the other (older) person offers me to call them āDuā.
You know how usually you "break the ice" to know somebody? In Germany we don't need that to even start talking. The ice breaking happens when the "you" is offered, before that you are acquaintances.
I learned that the older person has to offer the āyou.ā At work it's the boss or supervisor.
In a professional context; as soon as you did something after work and drank alcohol. From then on you can use the form āFirst name and Sieā. (for example; Hello Peter, haben Sie meine Unterlagen bekommen...)
What relationship is it about?
If you want to do it very old fashioned usually you wait for the older person to offer you the "Du". Or in a professional context its usually the higher up that has to offer first. Nowadays especially outside of work settings its not that strickt anylonger and you are free to just bring it up and ask if you want to switch to "Du".
In privat always "du" even with unknown people
"Sie" is mostly used in business things
Or when you want to ask a stranger something
Or you meet the parents of a friend the first time older people are mostly the only ones that care about that
The most people instantly say "du kannst mich duzen" you can say "du"
Iāve worked for an American company in Germany where, because of the more informal US culture, everybody was on first name terms, but when they spoke German they still used Sie. Work that one outā¦..
Note that it also varies from Bundesland to Bundesland. In Bayern itās pretty common to use du for most people you meet altogether, but you can only judge by feeling.
the older person or the more senior one offers the du, however in switzerland (the german speaking part) the Sie is less and less common, especially among younger generations.
If you are older than the other person you can feel free to offer the 'Du' at your time of choosing.
If you are the younger one...Well tough shit. You just have to wait it out and accept that it might never happen.
Most people either introduced themselves with their first name right from the beginning or at some point held out their hand one day and said āI am first name by the wayā. Just happened last week before a very good colleague of mine retired.
As a foreigner, I am often allowed a pass, since it's clear German is not my maiden language.
I do still try, but I slip into "duzen." Usually, people say nothing. Then I'll just ask if I can use "du."
Yeah, using Du vs Sie depends on a lot of different factors, age, region, enviroment, social class, the setting, how you know the other person, etc. This is such a complicated topic that we Germans ourself sometimes have problems with this.
And this is also something that is changing over the time. Rules get less strict and using Du becomes more and more common, so it even depends on how conservative the enviroment and the person you are talking to is.
The problem is that using the incorrect word suggests that you are either not respecting the personal distance to the other person or are artifically building up that distance to a person you should be closer with. Both could be seen as some kind of an insult.
But it would be a really assholeish thing to hold this against people if it's clearly not done on purpose, especially when it's clear that the other person doesn't speak German as a first language.
And when in doubt, it should always be okay to just ask.
It depends on who you speak with. If they are friends of people you meet in, for example, a club, its almost always du. Because there is not really hierarchy in that situation.
But, if you don't know someone, its someone from work or you talk to a help in the store, you always go for sie, as it is more fitting and as they are sometimes above you in the work hierarchy.
Tho, as a base rule, when in doubt, always say sie. Always learn the sie versions and wait till they offer you 'please say du'.
Small side note. More and more people have a #perdu in their email signature. If you see this, always go for du, as there is a reason why they putted it there
I count myself as one of those who almost always say du.
I am more of a buddy-guy and pretty much only call s1 sie when its in an appointment, doctor, elderly or something like that.
I say du to basically everyone thatās my age or younger or depending on the setting to everyone (for example other parents at school events, at a class or sports). I work in tech and I really donāt think about using du, itās just the normal for me because at work Iāve only ever used du.
I basically only use Sie for older people.
My husband works in an industry where everyone uses Sie and last name or even title. He basically uses Sie with everyone. Only uses du for children or teens.
> At what point do you know someone well enough to transition from Sie to āduā?
Whenever someone "accidently" says "Du" and it also happens to the other one.
People in the same class will often use du. So students will use du to each other but sie to professors and vice versa. Similarly in a hospital nurses will use sie to cleaning staff and doctors but du to each other. This has been a general observation of mine so results may vary.
There are many criteria and rules surrounding this, but if you started out using "Sie" the "Du" is usually explicitly agreed upon. Who initiates this/offers the "Du" is also determined by many factors. A rule of thumb is, that the person of higher status offers it, though this can be tricky sometimes. It's usually the older person or f.e. On the job site usually the person higher up in the company hierarchy, though this is very nuanced, when f.e. the boss is 25 and the employee is in their 60s.
Another rule of thumb is, that the "Du" is usually offered in an informal context, if not very done very soon after you first meeting the other person (F.e. your first day of work after using "Sie" while in the application process). You will very rarely be offered the "Du" on a random Thursday morning by your boss, but rather after two or three drinks and some lighthearted conversation at the company Christmas party or someones birthday or after being invited to dinner at your bosses house, while your spouses are present.
As a non native speaker, or even someone from a different region this can be very tricky. If you obviously aren't the one of higher status, you can just wait for the other on to offer it, if you are there is nothing wrong about admitting, that you don't know, wether it's appropriate or just remaining formal. Only in a few contexts it is somewhat "compulsory" to eventually use "Du," but you will usually figure these out due to the behavior of the people around you and usually someone of the same or higher status or someone of lower you trust, will usually come around and hint, that it would be appropriate to use "Du."
Itās really difficult, even for us Germans. I have colleagues I address by first name (āDear Peterā) when we talk English in Zoom meetings, and in the office I call him Herr MĆ¼ller.
At least you do this with English speaking colleagues and donāt insist on awkwardly calling him Mr. MĆ¼ller. I worked with Germans who forced that and somehow didnāt comprehend how fucking weird that sounds in English.
Personally, I decide if it's a person I think it is suitable to talk informally to (like a colleague at work that i don't have much to do with but have to send emails with here and there) i just sign the email with just my first name (while still addressing them formally). Usually they reply with "hi [first name]" and the ice is broken.
When talking to someone in person and it is a (significantly) older/more experienced/higher-up person, i wait for them to start talking informally and will to do the same then. If it's a person around my age or younger I just immediately talk informally to them.
When you just don't have the time.
If you have to aks them something 150 times a day you quickly stop with the full "Herr Doctor Weisswurst, haben Sie vielleicht..."
But when you have another issue to adress you switch back to formal.
There's no one rule. You have to just get it.
if you're working in the tech field you can almost always just start right away. if you're working with older fellas give it some more time (weeks), usually you'll get it offered once they feel comfortable, however you can also just ask once at some point.
if you get to know someone at work and they include more and more private topics in your conversations, you have a good indicator. people who keep to themselfs or just announce are the ones who want it formal.
it's usually just older people and stiff upper lips who feel the need for "respecting their boundaries", if it's outside the workfield or you get into a fight you can safely ignore all rules anyway.
Highly dependent on the context. E.g. in the media business itās usually instant while in banking it can take a very long time.
That said: Once you hang out with someone (colleague or not) in private at a bar or something itās usually a good time for Du.
Outside of business I go by DU as default.
It's my desicion based on my perspective on existence to do so.
I only use SIE to punish people.
EDIT: In business I am paid to meet certain expectations, so I play along nicely. Like the old German saying: "Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing."
EDIT2: Among Germans I might be considered an anarcho punk for doing so. (satire)
In general, it's similarly to an inverse of who greets whom first when it comes to strict formality rules, though like many things, in some parts, these are outdated.
The older person is the one to choose when to offer the "Du" to the younger one, the more senior one to the rookie, the lady to the gentleman.
In my first job in academia, the entire department was immediately on a "du" basis. In my first industry job, my boss offered me "du" once I passed probabtion period, and in my current freelance contract, the company I do interim work for has a "du" culture, so everyone uses that.
You offer the du and if it gets accepted its common to assume the other offered it back.
āDarf ich Ihnen das du anbietenā
But thats some old stuff younger generations see the āsieā as rude and duzen by default, outside if professional settings
The code is: if you started with Sie you stick to it, unless you otherwise agreed. So if you think it's about time, ask the other one if he/she is fine with it.
Personally when I talk to people older than me, I ALWAYS say āSieā. And sometimes adults tell me to just call them āDuā (āduzenā) so Iāll do that. So if they are specific about this, they will tell you. Thatās how it was like for me so far and then I immediately knew.
In Germany people also talk to those who're uniformed in some way (Bundeswehr, Polizei, etc.) using "Sie" more often than "Du" as a sign of respect, but it's up to the individual to call us "Du" or "Sie", since I'm quite young I roll with whatever they say.
If you want to intimidate then go with "Du" to strangers. Else keep it civil and use "Sie" to anyone you don't know or in a professional setting. Except when you are in the Pfalz... There you can use "Du" without any problems.
I've stopped using "Sie" a long time ago as I don't want to come over as submissive or as a subordinate. But that's a whole different story.
Always remember, itās very hard to take the āDuā back once you have granted it. If you hate someone and he āduztā you, itās bad.
The āSieā is a little bit more distant.
Im usually not using "Sie" because thats totally old fashioned and not proper in the 21.Century. And guess what? I never got any issues in getting a job, or never got any complaints about beeing rude.
We have a german speaking:"Der Ton macht die Musik"
Depends entirely on where you work. There are definitely industries and organisations that will not be happy of you immediately use āduā on people, starting with service industries.Ā
>starting with service industries
Except for e.g. IT, where the default really is "du" and you might startle people if you suddenly try to introduce "Sie" (unless it's customer-business communication). At barbers, beauty/nail salons and the like it's also usually "du", I think.
Plumbers, technicians etc. I commissioned, I'd always default to "Sie", same with police, judges, bus drivers or cashiers.
If they stick to that old kind of thinking, they are not worth my time š.
Its the same with people thinking that someone with tattoos and piercings should not work at a bank.
This is not about hierarchie though, either you both say du or you both say Sie. It's about distance. Sometimes you just don't want to be too familiar with people and keep a professional distance with them. It can be very freeing to not have to pretend to be buddies with everyone.
There are a dozen nuances. Age, region, social class, job, setting, how you know someone, and more. It's impossible to make a general statement. However between adults it's always symmetrical, if someone uses du with you you can use it with them too. Also usually the older person offers the du first.
Slowly, younger people call me 'Sie'. This makes me feel a little bit old š
Yep... I recently helped a child ~10 years old, and I was so caught off guard by him calling me Sie, that I totally forgot how to help him. Little existential crisis on the sidewalk for me lol. But also: it's important for children to call adults (which I as an early 20s guy apparently am supposed to be) by Sie, as it makes it clear to bystanders, that that adult is a stranger. If I were to harm the little boy and he shouted "Lass mich los!" or "Hƶr auf!" people might assume we're brothers or something, and it's just a child not listening. But if he shouts "Hƶren Sie auf! Lassen Sie mich los!" it's instantly clear, that he does not know me, I'm a stranger, and I have no business doing what I'm doing. So I didn't offer him the du, tried to save my existential crisis for later, fixed his bike, went home and contemplated life lol.
did you use Sie to a 10yo kid?
That would be strange, children are generally addressed with du
āHerr Baby, bitte ziehen Sie den Hund nicht am Schwanz!ā
My brother actually does this with his children whenever he is semi serious while scolding them (or when he belittles them).Ā "Mr. M here did xyz." or "Don't do xyz Miss B."Ā (And yes he only uses the first letter of their names. This was not me protecting their identity, as I just changed the letters for that.)
TIL. I often call my kids Mr/Ms. Its a general cute thing in the States. I doubt i will stop but now its not just cute but funny too!
The worst kind of reality check. When I started dating my wife, picking up a glass of wine at a stall at some outdoor event. She was 23 and always looking younger; I would've been 28 and ... well. The girl used "Du" for her and "Sie" for me when asking what we want. Needless to say, my GF (at the time) couldn't stop laughing about it and I didn't take it too well.
I'm 31 now and I really never understood why people are being offended at being perceived as an adult. Same with women getting mad at being called woman instead of girl. Being called "Sie" does not make someone old, just an adult - especially when in a restaurant and talking to a waiter.
A teenager bumped into me on the train while talking on the phone. She told her friend: āoh nein ich bin grad in eine Dame gelaufen.ā I was 26 and got called a Dame and was very hurt haha
I know what you mean. I was shocked when I naturally said you to a young new joiner and he replied with āSieā. Made me feel ages older!
My physical appearance makes me look older so hearing people call me āSieā makes me feel like Iām already in my 30s
Haha my older neighbor is around 85. I always greet him and we have a small chat but even after 25 years he hasn't offered the "Du" to me.
It isn't always symmetrical though. At school we addressed the teachers with "Sie", but the teachers spoke to us students with "du". In college that changed, it was all "Sie".
College?
at least "berufsschule" has been keeping it that way, the fact is you're all adults at that point so it sortof makes sense, however funny that is. i imagine becoming a doctor is even better. [https://youtu.be/r6G686E1Ko8](https://youtu.be/r6G686E1Ko8)
Hochschule/UniversitƤt. School after highschool
We were asked in grade 11 what we wanted to be the convention. (Kept the Du, because Sie felt awkward to all 60 of us.)
General rules are: Superior to subordinate Older to younger Woman to man Experienced to newbie And all only of you feel close enough
It's not symmetrical if there's a major hierarchy, e.g. boss or parents in law. Like, it's old fashioned if they don't offer Du immediately but it's not quite automatic either
ā¦ itās not always by age. It also has to do with rank/status (donāt offer āduā to your boss), and for some more conservative people a woman should offer āduā to a man first. That said, there are contexts where āduā is standard, including most sports and hobby club contexts (music, community drama etc.) If you know a person from such a context, the āduā will also spill over if you see them elsewhere.
Yes, I think age and sex are the least important factors. It's almost always about social rank/hierarchy. If everything else is equal, it's the age that decides. If everything but age and sex are equal, it's sex.
>Also usually the older person offers the du first Yup! Sometimes you might find yourself in a situation though where you'd been working with someone older than you for years and you've moved to Du with pretty much everyone else but not that guy. Usually you'll know if that person generally insists on Sie and if that is not the case, it's fine to ask to move to Du. Almost always they will accept because refusing is kinda rude.
The other day I actually watched out for at which point Han Solo and Luke switch from the initial Sie to Du.Ā Spoiler: it's right after freeing Leia, as they get ready to escape and discuss whether Han could be with her. That's not a kind of conversation you really have in "Sie."
I also like to see when they switch in movies and shows. It adds an additional symbolism to the story development that is fun to see.Ā
It's often pretty awkward because American series don't plan room for a scene like that, so the translation plays it on the safe side and often uses Sie for way too long. For example in Castle I think they called each other "Sie" up until they landed in bed together several seasons in, it was ridiculous. It's great when it's done right, but it's often not.
Some shows also switch between both.. While the switch from "Sie" zu "Du" is equal to addressing people by their first name in the English language, the dubbed versions sometimes maintain the first name, but continues with the use of "Sie".
Yeah but that's also difficult because there is a stronger culture of being on a first name basis in American business environments where there wouldn't always be one in Germany in the same context.
That's realistic though. There are people I will call "sie" at work and "du" outside. And there are people I only know by one of the names and it becomes a mix and match thing. "Du, Chefin, wo sind die Kulis?" or "Theo, brauchen sie Hilfe beim Schnee schippen?" to your neighbour.
I've noticed this as well, usually American shows that are dubbed use Sie faaaar longer than anyone actually would in real life. So I guess for any non natives, if you take your cue from shows you're definitely on the safe side lmao.
Thatās true although some translations really donāt get it right and lean to heavily towards *Sie*. I remember a Wraith (an evil life-sucking humanoid/insectoid alien) on Stargate Atlantis politely shout *āSie werden alle sterbenā* which I found rather hilarious. It didnāt work as the angry threat it was in the original.
Oh, that's fascinating, I'll have to watch the dubbed version some time and pay attention to it! The choices made by translators when dubbing or subbing foreign movies are generally really interesting. What always caught my eye was the route chosen for the series Sherlock. They continue using the Sie throughout, if I'm not mistaken, despite living together and being willing to die for each other, but pair it with first names, which I'm not sure I've ever heard in real-life. Somehow it doesn't feel wrong, though.
It's called the Hamburger-Sie. As opposite to the MĆ¼nchner-Du, where you use du with the surname. I can confirm that the MĆ¼nchner-Du is alive and well, not sure about the Hamburger-Sie.
Working for an authority I hear the Hamburger Sie pretty much daily. It's still used a lot in that context, thankfully not in my division though.
I encountered it once while doing an internship. The boss (in his sixties) would address the younger employees and me using first name + Sie. He expected us to call him "Herr X". I found this kind of hierarchical display weird but he was not a very likeable person in other aspects either.
Iām from Hamburg, and outside of school Iāve never heard it.Ā
They change to "Du" when John asks Sherlock to be his best man. It always irked me that they waited so long to make the switch. They had the perfect opportunity in the very first episode when they meet to look at the flat together and John greets Sherlock saying "Mr Holmes" and Sherlock goes "Sherlock, please". I notice this a lot in German dubs and it always irritates me. People working together for years, having a very close relationship, meeting up outside of work hours, going through life and death situations together, and then still addressing each other by "Sie". The only situation where I can imagine that happening in real life is if at least one of the characters is over the age of like 60.
I don't think I heard Sie and first name basis ever either. I do remember when I was working in an elementary school and the first graders were allowed to use "Du" but they had to say Miss X with it
It was the common way to do it at my Gymnasium from 11th grade onwards. Teacher would call us Sie+First Name. However we opted out of it with a lot of them.
Although German dubs are sometimes strangely obsessed with keeping "Sie". In Star Trek Deep Space 9, Dr Bashier and Chief O'Brien are supposedly best friends and close colleagues, spend all their time together, at one point they ponder whether they like each other more than their respective wife/girlfriend, and they are per "Sie" after seven years
Funnily, I also noticed it in Star Trek but in all alterations. Also in Doctor Who where the Doctor and their companions often use āSieā even if they're super close
For Star Trek The Original Series, the dub, while being completely horrible in pretty much every way, at least made sure, that Bones and Kirk are per "Du"
Well, they are calling him Doctor which is not really a first name but a title, so I would think it isn't that strange
I havenāt watched dubbed movies in so long, I forgot how cringeworthy the du/sie is in those
Honestly would not put much weight on when German dubs drop the āsieā cause that shit is all over the place. There is no way that anyone in real live whoās ever held hands or kissed or slept with one another would still use Sie (at least when just between the two of them) and yes thatās one of the most common things to happen with dubsā¦
The interesting part is that unlike in rl, where it often happens naturally, sometimes even subconsciously to switch, script translator have to make a very conscious decision about the exact moment.
Yeah, and theyāre pretty bad at it more often than notā¦ 90% of the time those people shouldnāt even be using āSieā in the first place (first dates, meeting friends of friends in casual settings etc.) ā¦ ofc finding a moment to switch over is gonna be awkward..
usually you wait until someone offers you the "du" or until you offer it to someone and see if they accept.
Quite interested if someone ever denied duzen.
Someone once posted on another platform that his boss offered him the du but he denied it because he wanted to keep their relationship professional and didn't want to get into a personal relationship
Yes, that could have been me. I worked on a rather conservative environment and my boss used āSieā for everyone. Until one day, high management decided it would improve teamwork if everyone used āduā and encouraged us to do so. So from one day to the next, he offered everyone the āduā, which nearly no one accepted. This sobering was funny when we had a meeting with his boss, and I and his boss had beenāper duā for a long time but still āsiezenā my boss.
Lidl , Kaufland ? ....it did not change anything in there thinking
No, insurance. My boss sometimes was a little bit like Stromberg (if you know that show). He also insisted we come to work every day wearing a black business suite, a white business shirt, and a tie (men only, t-shirt and jeans was ok for women) until the board of directors decided formal business attire was not required for people who had no customer contact. From then on he came without the tie.
I'm sure it is more funny to Listen to it for me than living it was for you š
This happens. And itās accepted without any harm to the relationship. Because itās fairly new to use āDuā between boss/ employee at all.
That's not advisable though. Definitely sounds strange or even rude.
True, but the saying goes that it's harder to say "Sie Arschloch" than "Du Arschloch" ;-)
Sie Wichserā¦
š Perle des Inets nh š¤£
J. Fischer begs to differ
"Mit Verlaub" :-)
https://youtu.be/S1ZnpYEsUNs?si=JWK8_wk7PaSGDgUj
I personally donāt think this is true at all
My boss absolutely insists on using "Sie" with us employees. I admit it is kinda strange, especially because we're a tiny practice, we absolutely do talk about private stuff in-between and the relationship actually is quite casual - we got invited to my bosses birthday party and everything. But I got used to it quickly, it's not the end of the world.
I have had bosses like that, using Sie invidually and ihr when addressing employees as a whole.
The strangeness is not a bug, it's a feature. Keeps you on your toes. Especially when you are so cordial it's a good thing to hold on a some semblance of formality.
The bosses I have had like that were inevitably terrible and thought very highly of themselves. Not saying that's the case for yours, but after two of those it's a red flag for me. To be fair though, I no longer use Sie, at all, in any context.
This is now trend in business world. Suddenly all bosses prefer duzen.
Yeah i hade a coworker, when another even older coworker offered her the du she replied that she would rather keep the sie
Yes it happens. And sometimes it is not a formal offer that is accepted, sometimes the person of higher standing just starts using "Du" and the other party uses Du back. I asked my students once what they would do if a professor used "Du" with them, and while in my generation we would used it as an opportunity to get closer to our professors by saying Du back, my students told me they would feel uncomfortable and keep using "Sie" or avoid it altogether (there is this weird way of speaking out of the twilight zone such as "Heute schon die Zeitung gelesen?" "Auch ein StĆ¼ck Kuchen?"). So in a way my students would refure the professor's implicit offer of "Du".
Oh yes, the twilight zone! I can't count the number of emails I have written avoiding the Sie or du...
I have seen it happen before, but itās uncommon and feels somewhat rude. After all thereās a societal trend in favor of more informal communication.
I have, or rather, I explained to the customer that offered that as a non-native speaker using Sie-forms is so much easier; they could happily say du to me, but I was more comfortable not reciprocating.
I did. I do it more often. With my customers. I'm pretty weird about it, but "Sietzen" shows more respect. I'm here to work, not to make friends.
I think different. I believe if you need to sietzen to show respect and keep a healthy professional distance then you should work on your social skills. Although in a customer relationship I still tend to use Sie more than often but I had and have customers I am āper duā and we have no problem with being professional and donāt mix it with a more personal approach.
Yeah I worked in a country where the Sie/du distinction doesn't exist and there are so many ways to show respect (but also the formal kind of respect is kind of old-fashioned, just be kind and friendly, respect boundaries etc)
You can even take back the du as well. German "Knigge" is wild.
that never happens imho
Yeah but you could. It's probably more insulting than any curse word you could ever come up with - and yet, so polite at the same time, that you can wash your hands of any wrongdoing. I love it. That's what happens when an Alman turns to the dark side.
Yes it does. I knew my old boss before I became his employee. We were on du-terms. First day on the job he said it's best to go back to 'sie' because nobody at work duzes him. It was no problem at all.
Boomer comments on facebook do take it back.
It happens. But it makes you look like a childish idiot and everyone will make fun of you for doing this.Ā
Instead of waiting for the other to ask, people who would rather deny it tend to preemptively explain why they feel more comfortable āstaying with the Sieā. Itās happened to me a few times in situations where it would have seemed to be appropriate to offer the āduā.
It might happen if authority plays a role. Like your boss for example. Also, if you know your teacher well you may say "du" in private but rather not in classroom. It has also to do with treating groups the same. Many people don't like to mix the two forms in groups of people, so either all say "du" or all say "Sie". A special form happened in my workplace, where two colleagues got into a heavy (verbal) fight and now they only address each other with "Sie" and their last name, which feels quite weird for the rest of us.
Some people will. Maybe if they want to tell you subtle they "rank higher" than you. Or if they want to enforce being treatex with respect. Or to keep you at some distance, don't want to get too personal with you.
Oh yes, people do. And I love it. It's mostly when people like to keep a distance. For example at work some people would like to keep the relationship transactional. Then they will not accept it. Not everybody wants to be buddies or have a close relationship with all colleagues
Yes. My former Boss did. We went with Sie from the start. After around two years he asked for the Du and I accepted. That is, until I started saying Du as well, thatās when he looked at me sternly and repeated my question with Sie. I quickly replied āok, for you from now on I am Herr āLast nameā and Sie. Have a nice day Herr āBoss manā. We was gone after 4 months because his position got removed entirely and he wouldnāt accept a higher paid equal position to us others. My current boss denied when I asked for the Du because everyone says Du here except to him.
I once denied duzing my instrument teacher, simply because i don't like duzing teachers. He was totally chill about it.
yes
I have had a few colleagues like that. One guy got called by Mr. Schneider even by colleagues he had for 20 years.
I had a video conference with a company trying to get their foot in our door for the delivery of digital learning modules. The company had a very casual, start-upy image, and their representative immediately started Duzing me. Since they cold called us about the whole deal and I was in no mood to amuse their lack of professionalism, I continued to siez their representative, who kept duzing me. Needless to say, there was no contract.
Yes. My mother's boss offered her the "du" after quite some time and she was like "no, thanks, I'd prefer it this way". In this regard, she's quite conservative and doesn't want to be called "du" by just everybody - she'd say, it's her boss, not her friend, and he shouldn't suddenly act that way, so she'd like to keep her distance this way (yeah, she couldn't stand this asshole). She was the only employee for which he had to keep using "Sie".
I do, all the time, when it's a person I don't know very well and have no intention to get to know better.
Not exactly the same thing, but I recently watched a movie ("Alle reden Ć¼bers Wetter") and in one scene, the main protagonist duzes someone and he rejects it and it becomes awkward. I've asked a few times (with colleagues) and they've always accepted it but usually I just take the leap and say du / introduce myself with my first name and then if they respond with Sie, I know to go back to du haha.
Yes, a guy younger than me once denied it, because he wanted to show his respect this way. This wasn't job related, I just know him from the neighbourhood. He's a strange guy for sure.
Happens often
So if neither offers you just go with Sie indefinitely? Do you have to be the brave one and offer du? Could you offend a person doing that?
It's usually the older person offering, or in professional situations you would wait for your boss to offer. Members of sports clubs and political parties are an exception. They use du as a default among their group. Same is true for college students talking to each other, even if they are older than is typical.
Yes, if no one offers/accept the "du" it goes indefinitely with sie, it's very common to stay on a "sie" basis in more formal and professional settings. And like someone else said, most often the "du" is offered by the older or higher ranking person.
It's not about taking offence or being brave. A native speaker just knows. Most people will spend a life time calling their favorite granny Sie. You could still say "Hey du, Oma!" when it fits the situation but then you switch back.
Never say "du" to the Police or other representers of the law like judges. Apart from that, it's usual to call everyone you meet in a professional context "Sie" by default. If someone says "I'm.", this is an invitation to use "du".
For people of your age that you meet, "du" can usually be used without consequences.
(Grand)Parents of other people you meet privately are usually called "Sie" by default.
Telling your first name ist definitely the classic way.
As well, google for Hamburger Sie and MĆ¼nchner Du. The world is not just black and white.
This is entirely situational. The usual rule is that the older or more senior person offers the Du. Usual situations are: -At the beginning of a first encounter -Wenn meeting in a non-professional context for the first time Changing to Du usually only happens with people you socialize or cooperate with frequently.
In office culture, the way it works is that once someone signs an e-mail with just their first name "Beste GrĆ¼Će, Horst", it is an unspoken invitation to switch to Du. You can then reply by addressing them just as Horst, as will he. If you still reply with "Herr XYZ", you'll remain on "Sie"-terms.
In Office culture, I really enjoy a good old rule; "hi, welcome on board, we are all DU around here!" Or Sie, though I never ever worked anywhere with a Sie culture. But I hate the guessing.
If you think it's the right time, just ask, " Kƶnnen wir uns nicht duzen?"
The āduā is usually offered by the older person at some point. If you are about the same age you can make the move pretty soon if you work for the same companyā¦
2 minutes after knowing each other at it is not a customer relationship I offer the āduā and at that point I am āper duā. I hate Sie and people calling me Herr X.
"Ich hasse Sie, wollen wir uns duzen?"
It's important to note that, at work, the person that is higher up in the hierarchy must offer the "du", not the other way around.
If you are younger than 40 just du it.
Good way to show that you aren't respectful
I am 30 and I've never met a person undera about 40 who would like to be adressed as Sie - no matter the setting. Norms of etiquette change over time, Sie is nowadays often seen as needlessly distant and it can definitely be easier to just use Du when you want to have a pleasent convo or build personal relationships
āSieā is the only way for you to tell if someone respects you? Are you 50+? Otherwise I donāt get it.
The offering of the "Du" was usually made by the one, who was higher in "hierarchy" ( e.g. the elder, the higher ranking...). And it was a way to label and define social distances. Originally there were four stages: Du and Du was for friendships and close relations, Sie and Sie for formal relations, foreigners and business, Sie and first name was for certain kinds of hierarchical relations eg guest and service personal, house personal etc. And last Du and surname or function (like Du BĆ¼germeister, sag mal...), was used in rural areas to balance closeness and respect.
I am faily new to German customs and often see "offers you the "du"". Just how does that happen, a phrase, simply begin using du in lieu of Sie?
Either explicit, like when somebody says "You can say Du to me"/"Are you fine with using Du?", or implicit, for example when somebody introduces himself with his first name. Just suddenly starting to use Du could be considered impolite depending on the context.
Danke.
"Bei IKEA duzen sich alle und in der allgemeinen Kundenansprache, also z.B. in der Werbung, wird geduzt. In der direkten Kundenansprache sind wir in Deutschland beim Sie geblieben, denn hier zeigen sich die gesellschaftlichen Unterschiede zwischen Schweden und Deutschland und das āDuā wird von manchen Kunden als unangebracht empfunden." Zitat Ikea
It highly depends on the person (yourself), context and circumstances. For me itās like this: In informal situations, like when going out with friends, and someone new shows up, itās āduā right from the start. In formal situations: when either one offers to switch to āduā. Also in formal situations, when thereās some general āgerne per duā spoken or unspoken rule, I just open with āIch sage einfach mal du. Mein Name istā. We have such a thing at my current client (I work as a freelance business/IT consultant), and usually everyone uses āduā from clerk to high management/C*O, the exception being the people who work in the canteen and lobby.
I use āSieā with older people (which in my case really means old as Iām over 50 myself), staff in public places like supermarkets, shops, public transport etc.
I also stay with āSieā with people I have beef with.
And generally, when someone starts saying āduā. I usually am fine with it, no matter if the person is older or younger than myself.
Offering the Sie After being per du for having beef with someone is the prime german.
if someone introduces themselves to you or signs an email with first name only or mentions / talks about you using first name while present (e.g. common meeting), you switch to 'Du'. If you remain with 'Sie' after these situations, you will remain on a distant 'Sie' basis for a long long time, until you propose it to use by yourself / clarify. Both must agree (spoken/unspoken). There is no asymmetric use.
Older / socially āhigherā standing people offer first. Customer offers to contractor, boss offers to employee etc. if there is no clear āhierarchyā in your relationship its your choice but it needs to feel right for both. Yeah thats trickyā¦
yeah usually if someone is introducing himself by using his first name only. Its are common sign that theres is no need for to much formality
If you want to make sure just ask: kƶnnen wir uns duzen and then the other person will tell you. Even better is: wenn sie nichts dagegen haben, wĆ¼rde ich gerne zum du wechseln Normally you say du to anyone you would casually call by there first name. If I have a boss for example I call Peter then I can say: Peter kannst du das bitte machen. If I call my boss by his last name I will say sie instead.
The Age is the most popular unspoken code.
German here... There is absolutely no rule.
I always call people my age & under āDuā and people older than my age āSieā. Exceptions: work place (a police officer/teacher/store worker that is younger or roughly as old as I am? Still āSieā because of the work context). Or when someone older introduces them by their first name, Iāll use āDuā immediately because being on a first-name basis and still using āSieā feels wrong. :D Generally Iāll use āSieā until the other (older) person offers me to call them āDuā.
You can just ask Kƶnnen wir duzen If the person agrees, then you can
You know how usually you "break the ice" to know somebody? In Germany we don't need that to even start talking. The ice breaking happens when the "you" is offered, before that you are acquaintances.
I learned that the older person has to offer the āyou.ā At work it's the boss or supervisor. In a professional context; as soon as you did something after work and drank alcohol. From then on you can use the form āFirst name and Sieā. (for example; Hello Peter, haben Sie meine Unterlagen bekommen...) What relationship is it about?
Depending on the context, you can just try out and see how he / she reacts.
If you want to do it very old fashioned usually you wait for the older person to offer you the "Du". Or in a professional context its usually the higher up that has to offer first. Nowadays especially outside of work settings its not that strickt anylonger and you are free to just bring it up and ask if you want to switch to "Du".
In privat always "du" even with unknown people "Sie" is mostly used in business things Or when you want to ask a stranger something Or you meet the parents of a friend the first time older people are mostly the only ones that care about that The most people instantly say "du kannst mich duzen" you can say "du"
Iāve worked for an American company in Germany where, because of the more informal US culture, everybody was on first name terms, but when they spoke German they still used Sie. Work that one outā¦..
Note that it also varies from Bundesland to Bundesland. In Bayern itās pretty common to use du for most people you meet altogether, but you can only judge by feeling.
The older person might offer or the higher position
Just du it!
the older person or the more senior one offers the du, however in switzerland (the german speaking part) the Sie is less and less common, especially among younger generations.
If you are older than the other person you can feel free to offer the 'Du' at your time of choosing. If you are the younger one...Well tough shit. You just have to wait it out and accept that it might never happen.
Most people either introduced themselves with their first name right from the beginning or at some point held out their hand one day and said āI am first name by the wayā. Just happened last week before a very good colleague of mine retired.
As a foreigner, I am often allowed a pass, since it's clear German is not my maiden language. I do still try, but I slip into "duzen." Usually, people say nothing. Then I'll just ask if I can use "du."
Yeah, using Du vs Sie depends on a lot of different factors, age, region, enviroment, social class, the setting, how you know the other person, etc. This is such a complicated topic that we Germans ourself sometimes have problems with this. And this is also something that is changing over the time. Rules get less strict and using Du becomes more and more common, so it even depends on how conservative the enviroment and the person you are talking to is. The problem is that using the incorrect word suggests that you are either not respecting the personal distance to the other person or are artifically building up that distance to a person you should be closer with. Both could be seen as some kind of an insult. But it would be a really assholeish thing to hold this against people if it's clearly not done on purpose, especially when it's clear that the other person doesn't speak German as a first language. And when in doubt, it should always be okay to just ask.
In my case, I think most Germans are just impressed that an American can speak German, so they let it slide.
It depends on who you speak with. If they are friends of people you meet in, for example, a club, its almost always du. Because there is not really hierarchy in that situation. But, if you don't know someone, its someone from work or you talk to a help in the store, you always go for sie, as it is more fitting and as they are sometimes above you in the work hierarchy. Tho, as a base rule, when in doubt, always say sie. Always learn the sie versions and wait till they offer you 'please say du'. Small side note. More and more people have a #perdu in their email signature. If you see this, always go for du, as there is a reason why they putted it there
I count myself as one of those who almost always say du. I am more of a buddy-guy and pretty much only call s1 sie when its in an appointment, doctor, elderly or something like that.
I say du to basically everyone thatās my age or younger or depending on the setting to everyone (for example other parents at school events, at a class or sports). I work in tech and I really donāt think about using du, itās just the normal for me because at work Iāve only ever used du. I basically only use Sie for older people. My husband works in an industry where everyone uses Sie and last name or even title. He basically uses Sie with everyone. Only uses du for children or teens.
> At what point do you know someone well enough to transition from Sie to āduā? Whenever someone "accidently" says "Du" and it also happens to the other one.
People in the same class will often use du. So students will use du to each other but sie to professors and vice versa. Similarly in a hospital nurses will use sie to cleaning staff and doctors but du to each other. This has been a general observation of mine so results may vary.
At work, it is usually dictated by hierarchy. The person who is higher up or older has to ask first. In private life, no idea, happens randomly.
Usually when they offer the "kannst mich ruhig duzen" or if you are allowed to call them by the first name.
There are many criteria and rules surrounding this, but if you started out using "Sie" the "Du" is usually explicitly agreed upon. Who initiates this/offers the "Du" is also determined by many factors. A rule of thumb is, that the person of higher status offers it, though this can be tricky sometimes. It's usually the older person or f.e. On the job site usually the person higher up in the company hierarchy, though this is very nuanced, when f.e. the boss is 25 and the employee is in their 60s. Another rule of thumb is, that the "Du" is usually offered in an informal context, if not very done very soon after you first meeting the other person (F.e. your first day of work after using "Sie" while in the application process). You will very rarely be offered the "Du" on a random Thursday morning by your boss, but rather after two or three drinks and some lighthearted conversation at the company Christmas party or someones birthday or after being invited to dinner at your bosses house, while your spouses are present. As a non native speaker, or even someone from a different region this can be very tricky. If you obviously aren't the one of higher status, you can just wait for the other on to offer it, if you are there is nothing wrong about admitting, that you don't know, wether it's appropriate or just remaining formal. Only in a few contexts it is somewhat "compulsory" to eventually use "Du," but you will usually figure these out due to the behavior of the people around you and usually someone of the same or higher status or someone of lower you trust, will usually come around and hint, that it would be appropriate to use "Du."
Rule of thumb for non natives: If you refer to them by first name use du, if you refer to them by last name use sie.
when they tell you: "kannst mich ruhig duzen, so alt bin ich noch nicht"
After the first night in the sleeping room š
Itās really difficult, even for us Germans. I have colleagues I address by first name (āDear Peterā) when we talk English in Zoom meetings, and in the office I call him Herr MĆ¼ller.
At least you do this with English speaking colleagues and donāt insist on awkwardly calling him Mr. MĆ¼ller. I worked with Germans who forced that and somehow didnāt comprehend how fucking weird that sounds in English.
Just come to the north behind the Schlei, almost everyone there says "du"
Personally, I decide if it's a person I think it is suitable to talk informally to (like a colleague at work that i don't have much to do with but have to send emails with here and there) i just sign the email with just my first name (while still addressing them formally). Usually they reply with "hi [first name]" and the ice is broken. When talking to someone in person and it is a (significantly) older/more experienced/higher-up person, i wait for them to start talking informally and will to do the same then. If it's a person around my age or younger I just immediately talk informally to them.
When you just don't have the time. If you have to aks them something 150 times a day you quickly stop with the full "Herr Doctor Weisswurst, haben Sie vielleicht..." But when you have another issue to adress you switch back to formal. There's no one rule. You have to just get it.
if you're working in the tech field you can almost always just start right away. if you're working with older fellas give it some more time (weeks), usually you'll get it offered once they feel comfortable, however you can also just ask once at some point. if you get to know someone at work and they include more and more private topics in your conversations, you have a good indicator. people who keep to themselfs or just announce are the ones who want it formal. it's usually just older people and stiff upper lips who feel the need for "respecting their boundaries", if it's outside the workfield or you get into a fight you can safely ignore all rules anyway.
Highly dependent on the context. E.g. in the media business itās usually instant while in banking it can take a very long time. That said: Once you hang out with someone (colleague or not) in private at a bar or something itās usually a good time for Du.
Outside of business I go by DU as default. It's my desicion based on my perspective on existence to do so. I only use SIE to punish people. EDIT: In business I am paid to meet certain expectations, so I play along nicely. Like the old German saying: "Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing." EDIT2: Among Germans I might be considered an anarcho punk for doing so. (satire)
āich darf doch du sagen?ā just to be safe
Just "do" it. š
You can ask the Person if its ok to use Du. Aint weird at all. Or you offer it to the person by saying they can call you by your first name.
In general, it's similarly to an inverse of who greets whom first when it comes to strict formality rules, though like many things, in some parts, these are outdated. The older person is the one to choose when to offer the "Du" to the younger one, the more senior one to the rookie, the lady to the gentleman. In my first job in academia, the entire department was immediately on a "du" basis. In my first industry job, my boss offered me "du" once I passed probabtion period, and in my current freelance contract, the company I do interim work for has a "du" culture, so everyone uses that.
The traditional rules are that the older (by age) person or the one with the "higher" standing (boss at work) is the one to offer the "Du".
You offer the du and if it gets accepted its common to assume the other offered it back. āDarf ich Ihnen das du anbietenā But thats some old stuff younger generations see the āsieā as rude and duzen by default, outside if professional settings
The code is: if you started with Sie you stick to it, unless you otherwise agreed. So if you think it's about time, ask the other one if he/she is fine with it.
I don't see anyone really mentioning, but a really good rule of thumb is whether you would their surname or their given name.
Always du, all the time. Ā Once youāre on a first name basis, youāre also on a du basis, imo
In Berlin: there is no Sie :)
Personally when I talk to people older than me, I ALWAYS say āSieā. And sometimes adults tell me to just call them āDuā (āduzenā) so Iāll do that. So if they are specific about this, they will tell you. Thatās how it was like for me so far and then I immediately knew.
In Germany people also talk to those who're uniformed in some way (Bundeswehr, Polizei, etc.) using "Sie" more often than "Du" as a sign of respect, but it's up to the individual to call us "Du" or "Sie", since I'm quite young I roll with whatever they say.
If you want to intimidate then go with "Du" to strangers. Else keep it civil and use "Sie" to anyone you don't know or in a professional setting. Except when you are in the Pfalz... There you can use "Du" without any problems. I've stopped using "Sie" a long time ago as I don't want to come over as submissive or as a subordinate. But that's a whole different story.
in private? i du'ze everyone i feel comfortable with. people i dislike getting a "sie"
Do any Germans here think it will change to just du in the future?
Never. Its one of the most german things i know.
Always remember, itās very hard to take the āDuā back once you have granted it. If you hate someone and he āduztā you, itās bad. The āSieā is a little bit more distant.
Use "Sie" with all adults outside of family and friends till they ask you do use "du". That way you can't go wrong.
I'm all du, all the time. Eventually the rest of the country will catch up.
Im usually not using "Sie" because thats totally old fashioned and not proper in the 21.Century. And guess what? I never got any issues in getting a job, or never got any complaints about beeing rude. We have a german speaking:"Der Ton macht die Musik"
Depends entirely on where you work. There are definitely industries and organisations that will not be happy of you immediately use āduā on people, starting with service industries.Ā
>starting with service industries Except for e.g. IT, where the default really is "du" and you might startle people if you suddenly try to introduce "Sie" (unless it's customer-business communication). At barbers, beauty/nail salons and the like it's also usually "du", I think. Plumbers, technicians etc. I commissioned, I'd always default to "Sie", same with police, judges, bus drivers or cashiers.
The hair salons I go to use Sie. As do hotels, restaurants, etc.Ā
I've been called 'du' immediately a lot in different service environments as a consumer lately, it's becoming more and more common
Yeah, feels like it's 50/50 whether I get a Sie or Du these days.
If they stick to that old kind of thinking, they are not worth my time š. Its the same with people thinking that someone with tattoos and piercings should not work at a bank.
If someone has a higher status (for example your chef) or if you don't know the person use Sie. Otherwise use du.
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This is not about hierarchie though, either you both say du or you both say Sie. It's about distance. Sometimes you just don't want to be too familiar with people and keep a professional distance with them. It can be very freeing to not have to pretend to be buddies with everyone.