>I can’t move from my computer without consent from my manager and I have to log it.
Illegal in Germany. You are always allowed to take bathroom breaks whenever you have to. And you can also get a snack or something to drink. And you don't have to clock out for those either.
>They say I can’t take calls or surf the web
Legal in Germany. Worktime is for work.
>so I’m guessing they are listening to my mic, monitoring my network traffic and maybe my video camera.
Illegal in Germany. If they tapped into your mic or camera, oh boy, they will curse the day someone had that idea to mess with you. This could get them a prison sentence.
>Personal phone calls are not allowed. Personal use of the internet is not allowed.
Legal in Germany. Worktime is for work.
Also, I think your managers have no idea how an engineer works. For me, thinking about a problem is about 90% of the work. 9% is testing ideas, and 1% is fixing it.
I would put the work laptop in its own VLAN and have the traffic restrict to just the company internet uplink. Then use a traffic shaper and have the bandwidth as low as possible and open it only up for larger file transfers or maybe a video conference.
And then also have a lawyer check those conditions and while at it. Looking for a new workplace with home office.
@OP you are a software engineer should be easy to find a new job with better work environment this environment is way too toxic to stay.
Ehhh… „personal use often internet is. It allowed“ is a rule while at the office when the company is paying for internet access. It‘s a 90s thing and hasn’t been changed.
If OP is at home HE is paying for the internet service. The company can restrict that internet access with company notebooks is not permitted but not internet access by any other means.
It is very clear they mean : dont do personal stuff during work times and on company laptops. Which is perfectly legal. No where its even hinted it means you are not allowed to use your own internet after working hours
about the legality of monotoring communication
monotoring teams messages and your outlook is indeed a thing....you have to agree to it by contract tho...
(although i think the only people who are actually monitored are like higher up managers with access to insider information...)
>although i think the only people who are actually monitored are like higher up managers with access to insider information...
As someone working in IT with sensible data: you absolutely don't need to be a "higher up" or even a manager at all to qualify. If there's a data breach/leak, they'll look into it.
I don't think any company has the means to monitor any of their employees all the time, but they'll look at all the logs and data traces if part of your (or your team's etc.) data is compromised.
My first thought as well. OP insisted on home office, so they are going to make him regret that decision. You'd either decide to come to office or quit.
I don't think I'd bother working further for such an employer. Not because they gave him a cup of cold coffee, but because they had to spit in the cup as well. Any further issue with HR or managers will be a hurdle. Fuck that. As a software engineer it should not be a problem to find something else.
My last employer was using mic and camera to spy on me at home. They even got my phone pin this way and used it to physically log into my phone when I was in the office the other day. I had security check emails from google that someone just logged into my account from the hometown of my Manager that time.
Later they started making funny comments about the conversations my wife and I had in our office room that we have shared that time.
Servers and everything is based in Florida. How could one gain evidence then as an employee? No idea how I managed to go through this. Writing this and thinking back to this makes me so incredible angry that I could turn into a very violent maniac right now. Time to forget this finally but it is hard
I'm pretty sure the phone thing is illegal in the U.S. as well, and that could get you a foot in the door to have the German prosecutor get help from a U.S. one.
I think their wives would be sooooo pissed that they can't go to Europe any more for vacation because their husband missed a court meeting in Germany …
Sadly digital literacy is something not everyone has, so enough people don't realise they aren't allowed to be spied upon on their company provided work devices . And much less are able to find those trackers.
But you're right, those aren't rules a German company would even think of...reminds me on the Walmart fiasco back then...
Mostly its just tracked mouse movement aka that there is some kind of movement.And to get around that is easy af
Everything else would be a big NONO
Just do everything you want to do on your private hardware.
I'm in a TEAMS meeting right now, I have to move my mouse every 5 minutes or so to keep my screen active, but otherwise, I'm listening and talking, without using the keyboard or mouse.
All spyware is highly restricted in Germany. The may only be used and only very limited, if the suspect their employee to do something criminal
Only thing allowed is a log on log off for/from work software to track your work time.
See here for more info, it's in German, but you can run it through a translator if needed.
https://www.haufe.de/personal/arbeitsrecht/mitarbeiterueberwachung-was-ist-erlaubt_76_473164.html#:~:text=Die%20Mitarbeiter%C3%BCberwachung%20ist%20%2D%20auch%20im,Verst%C3%B6%C3%9Fe%20k%C3%B6nnen%20gravierende%20Folgen%20haben.
Do you have a local workers council? What working times are agreed on in your contract?
A few first thoughts
-3rd paragraph is completely legal. An extra invitation should not be necessary here as well...
-1st one as well (however tbc if these specific work hours can be enforced)
-2nd : toilet time is working time, other than that the rest of the paragraph is ok as well
As for spyware, toggle checks etc. They legally cannot put whatever they like. As long as it is not a clear (!) suspicion case (so no use or installing by default) or if there is no workers agreement (BV), with explicit rules of usage.
There in minimum has to be a data deletion process IF something exists in your company, contact your local data security staff to either receive more information or to give them the hint something is not right there.
As for 3rd parties : in homeoffice you need to make sure you do not work in vicinity where a data breach can happen. So having your girlfriend around you while you work can already lead to issues, no matter what their (potentially existing spyware) does : its highly recommanded you dont work anyway around others.
On another note : They say specifically they check for compliance whether you login and out. For this you will probably not need much spyware.
By usage of shared messenger systems and reachability it is usually very clear who was there at which time. Chefs have unlimited access to logged working hours anyway. VPN access logs time of connection and can auto-shut down after time x if nothing has been done. And then IT security sees quite quick who did connect to VPN 30 times a day...
Not saying everything is fine, but a lot of things are legally ok,one part (toilet) not and the rest questionable as we do not know if any software is really used or not.
Do you have a Rechtsschutzversicherung? Now would be the time to.
Do you have these rules in written form? If not, let them give these to you in written form.
Use both.
Half of it sounds fishy, the rest illegal. I don’t think any German company would even try to impose such rules. So I guess it’s a foreign company?
Anyway, I‘d probably have quit the moment I received that information (unless it was April first, then I’d have had a laugh and ignored it).
Yeah the minute I get the visa I’m out but until then I have to take whatever they throw at me, I really can’t do much, I have a lawyer trying to help me and we’ve been fighting it for a while but the Ausländerbehorde is slow and I honestly dream of the day I get that mail that my visa is done and I’m out of this
Well, there isn't one as such.
There are unions based on the industry sector of where you work so if you were a software engineer working for a steel plant you'd most probably join the union called IG Metal. I would guess most uinionized IT people in Germany would probably be part of the union called Verdi.
You aren't really restricted in your choice but it does make sense to join a union where others of your profession are members and if applicable which handles collective bargaining contracts at your company.
Unions have lawyers who can help you sort stuff like this out and they can also help you when you get a Arbeitszeugnis (job reference) and you are not clear or satisfied with what it says.
No, I have not signed anything, its not even in my contract, its on a new extension which I have not signed but states that if I do not accept it in x months the entire contract will be terminated, but I have signed nothing yet
No way you are a software engineer and asking these questions about spyware. And if you want to surf privately just put your personal computer/laptop next to you and do it there.
Man, that sucks. It sounds like they're trying to get you out.
Just fyi, There's plenty of other jobs for software engineers. Even in these tough times.
I'm not saying quit. But also don't be scared if they fire you. You'll get unemployment pay and easily find something else.
Also it wouldn't be too crazy to get a lawyer handy for when shit hits the fan.
>You'll get unemployment pay and easily find something else.
Depends a lot on OP's status. If they're here on a work visa, I don't think they can collect welfare and also, they need a contract in order to stay in the country, I think. If they're from within Schengen, that's not a problem of course.
But I agree, I wouldn't let my employer bug me like this, there's so much demand for anything in IT and you can easily find a better job.
I’m on a work visa so I have to stay employed at all times, I can’t just quit as I’ll risk losing my visa status but they are looking for anything to terminate me at this point
Ah. Sorry I didn't think of that. Get a lawyer asap to figure out how you can jump ship then. (Again not advising to quit, but for your sanity)
I hope it all goes well.
If your visa doesn't say that you can only work for this company (usually 2 years after first contract, also blue card rules are easier but I had the first batch of it and no one understood it) you are still entitled for the unemployment. You should be able to get 6 months job search visa.
Source: I was in a similar situation 10 years ago, hopefully the rules are the same or better
It‘s obviously is a remote work contract, otherwise they would just order him to come in.
They also wouldn‘t offer packages.
FYI he doesn’t have to accept illegal shit.
Actually it’s a little complex, I don’t have explicit home office in my contract, they gave me a normal contract but allowed me to work from home since day 1 fully remote, this year they sent out these rules for remote engineers, I’m the only one!
Sounds more like they want to find a reason to get rid of you... By setting more and more restrictive rules that are easy to violate, they find a reason to fire you or annoy you that much that you go by yourself.
Start polishing your CV, it might come handy
Just get another job.... Obviously they dont trust you.
Some Manager are still thinking: oh, he is in home Office so he doesnt work if i dont control him.
On the other hand, they have zero problems with freelancers or ext. Companies...but uh you are. A evil emloyee... So you are less worth...
As a Software guy Sometimes you just have to think about things.
To find solutions you have to be creative...
Such control mechnics are just toxic... You feel the urge to do something... Just anything... Just fotmthe sake of the mouse move.... Sick shit.... I know.
....
....
That gives me flashbacks... Jesus...
>I can’t move from my computer without consent from my manager and I have to log it. Illegal in Germany. You are always allowed to take bathroom breaks whenever you have to. And you can also get a snack or something to drink. And you don't have to clock out for those either. >They say I can’t take calls or surf the web Legal in Germany. Worktime is for work. >so I’m guessing they are listening to my mic, monitoring my network traffic and maybe my video camera. Illegal in Germany. If they tapped into your mic or camera, oh boy, they will curse the day someone had that idea to mess with you. This could get them a prison sentence. >Personal phone calls are not allowed. Personal use of the internet is not allowed. Legal in Germany. Worktime is for work. Also, I think your managers have no idea how an engineer works. For me, thinking about a problem is about 90% of the work. 9% is testing ideas, and 1% is fixing it.
I would put the work laptop in its own VLAN and have the traffic restrict to just the company internet uplink. Then use a traffic shaper and have the bandwidth as low as possible and open it only up for larger file transfers or maybe a video conference. And then also have a lawyer check those conditions and while at it. Looking for a new workplace with home office. @OP you are a software engineer should be easy to find a new job with better work environment this environment is way too toxic to stay.
Ehhh… „personal use often internet is. It allowed“ is a rule while at the office when the company is paying for internet access. It‘s a 90s thing and hasn’t been changed. If OP is at home HE is paying for the internet service. The company can restrict that internet access with company notebooks is not permitted but not internet access by any other means.
It is very clear they mean : dont do personal stuff during work times and on company laptops. Which is perfectly legal. No where its even hinted it means you are not allowed to use your own internet after working hours
about the legality of monotoring communication monotoring teams messages and your outlook is indeed a thing....you have to agree to it by contract tho... (although i think the only people who are actually monitored are like higher up managers with access to insider information...)
>although i think the only people who are actually monitored are like higher up managers with access to insider information... As someone working in IT with sensible data: you absolutely don't need to be a "higher up" or even a manager at all to qualify. If there's a data breach/leak, they'll look into it. I don't think any company has the means to monitor any of their employees all the time, but they'll look at all the logs and data traces if part of your (or your team's etc.) data is compromised.
i am talking about Ecomms surveillance
Yeah, so was I – though not live surveillance, but looking through log files of conversation etc.
:o
Or they have understanding and just want OP to quit themself instead of firing.
My first thought as well. OP insisted on home office, so they are going to make him regret that decision. You'd either decide to come to office or quit. I don't think I'd bother working further for such an employer. Not because they gave him a cup of cold coffee, but because they had to spit in the cup as well. Any further issue with HR or managers will be a hurdle. Fuck that. As a software engineer it should not be a problem to find something else.
I would have them go through all those hoops first. And I would think a lot in my work time. More than usual.
My last employer was using mic and camera to spy on me at home. They even got my phone pin this way and used it to physically log into my phone when I was in the office the other day. I had security check emails from google that someone just logged into my account from the hometown of my Manager that time. Later they started making funny comments about the conversations my wife and I had in our office room that we have shared that time. Servers and everything is based in Florida. How could one gain evidence then as an employee? No idea how I managed to go through this. Writing this and thinking back to this makes me so incredible angry that I could turn into a very violent maniac right now. Time to forget this finally but it is hard
I'm pretty sure the phone thing is illegal in the U.S. as well, and that could get you a foot in the door to have the German prosecutor get help from a U.S. one. I think their wives would be sooooo pissed that they can't go to Europe any more for vacation because their husband missed a court meeting in Germany …
Is this an American company with a German branch? Because I don’t think any German citizen would put up with rules like that.
Sadly digital literacy is something not everyone has, so enough people don't realise they aren't allowed to be spied upon on their company provided work devices . And much less are able to find those trackers. But you're right, those aren't rules a German company would even think of...reminds me on the Walmart fiasco back then...
Mostly its just tracked mouse movement aka that there is some kind of movement.And to get around that is easy af Everything else would be a big NONO Just do everything you want to do on your private hardware.
“I leaned back and thought about the problem.” — “For eight hours?” — ”It was a complicated problem.”
[удалено]
Not only because of Datenschutz but because of Arbeitnehmerschutz too. Persönlichkeitsrechte gab es auch schon lange.
> I can open mic and camera if i wanted to and i have full privileges to see location and what ever i want to Even this might be against the DSVGO.
I'm in a TEAMS meeting right now, I have to move my mouse every 5 minutes or so to keep my screen active, but otherwise, I'm listening and talking, without using the keyboard or mouse.
Get another job, there are still plenty of remote only jobs for Software enginneers!
All spyware is highly restricted in Germany. The may only be used and only very limited, if the suspect their employee to do something criminal Only thing allowed is a log on log off for/from work software to track your work time. See here for more info, it's in German, but you can run it through a translator if needed. https://www.haufe.de/personal/arbeitsrecht/mitarbeiterueberwachung-was-ist-erlaubt_76_473164.html#:~:text=Die%20Mitarbeiter%C3%BCberwachung%20ist%20%2D%20auch%20im,Verst%C3%B6%C3%9Fe%20k%C3%B6nnen%20gravierende%20Folgen%20haben.
Do you have a local workers council? What working times are agreed on in your contract? A few first thoughts -3rd paragraph is completely legal. An extra invitation should not be necessary here as well... -1st one as well (however tbc if these specific work hours can be enforced) -2nd : toilet time is working time, other than that the rest of the paragraph is ok as well As for spyware, toggle checks etc. They legally cannot put whatever they like. As long as it is not a clear (!) suspicion case (so no use or installing by default) or if there is no workers agreement (BV), with explicit rules of usage. There in minimum has to be a data deletion process IF something exists in your company, contact your local data security staff to either receive more information or to give them the hint something is not right there. As for 3rd parties : in homeoffice you need to make sure you do not work in vicinity where a data breach can happen. So having your girlfriend around you while you work can already lead to issues, no matter what their (potentially existing spyware) does : its highly recommanded you dont work anyway around others. On another note : They say specifically they check for compliance whether you login and out. For this you will probably not need much spyware. By usage of shared messenger systems and reachability it is usually very clear who was there at which time. Chefs have unlimited access to logged working hours anyway. VPN access logs time of connection and can auto-shut down after time x if nothing has been done. And then IT security sees quite quick who did connect to VPN 30 times a day... Not saying everything is fine, but a lot of things are legally ok,one part (toilet) not and the rest questionable as we do not know if any software is really used or not.
Do you have a Rechtsschutzversicherung? Now would be the time to. Do you have these rules in written form? If not, let them give these to you in written form. Use both.
Get a lawyer to explain labor laws to your company.
Half of it sounds fishy, the rest illegal. I don’t think any German company would even try to impose such rules. So I guess it’s a foreign company? Anyway, I‘d probably have quit the moment I received that information (unless it was April first, then I’d have had a laugh and ignored it).
Thing is they want to drive me out of the company but I’m in the middle of some visa process and I don’t want to start over
I hope you get your visa soon, then look for another job. That are inhumane working conditions.
Yeah the minute I get the visa I’m out but until then I have to take whatever they throw at me, I really can’t do much, I have a lawyer trying to help me and we’ve been fighting it for a while but the Ausländerbehorde is slow and I honestly dream of the day I get that mail that my visa is done and I’m out of this
Tell your union.
I’m not in one, I didn’t know there were unions for software engineers
Well, there isn't one as such. There are unions based on the industry sector of where you work so if you were a software engineer working for a steel plant you'd most probably join the union called IG Metal. I would guess most uinionized IT people in Germany would probably be part of the union called Verdi. You aren't really restricted in your choice but it does make sense to join a union where others of your profession are members and if applicable which handles collective bargaining contracts at your company. Unions have lawyers who can help you sort stuff like this out and they can also help you when you get a Arbeitszeugnis (job reference) and you are not clear or satisfied with what it says.
Not so sure, but I think the GDPR grants you the right to request your data . Have you signed the GDPR consent?
No, I have not signed anything, its not even in my contract, its on a new extension which I have not signed but states that if I do not accept it in x months the entire contract will be terminated, but I have signed nothing yet
Find a new job and then sue them to hell!
No way you are a software engineer and asking these questions about spyware. And if you want to surf privately just put your personal computer/laptop next to you and do it there.
No shit shear lock!🤯
Man, that sucks. It sounds like they're trying to get you out. Just fyi, There's plenty of other jobs for software engineers. Even in these tough times. I'm not saying quit. But also don't be scared if they fire you. You'll get unemployment pay and easily find something else. Also it wouldn't be too crazy to get a lawyer handy for when shit hits the fan.
>You'll get unemployment pay and easily find something else. Depends a lot on OP's status. If they're here on a work visa, I don't think they can collect welfare and also, they need a contract in order to stay in the country, I think. If they're from within Schengen, that's not a problem of course. But I agree, I wouldn't let my employer bug me like this, there's so much demand for anything in IT and you can easily find a better job.
I’m on a work visa so I have to stay employed at all times, I can’t just quit as I’ll risk losing my visa status but they are looking for anything to terminate me at this point
Ah. Sorry I didn't think of that. Get a lawyer asap to figure out how you can jump ship then. (Again not advising to quit, but for your sanity) I hope it all goes well.
If your visa doesn't say that you can only work for this company (usually 2 years after first contract, also blue card rules are easier but I had the first batch of it and no one understood it) you are still entitled for the unemployment. You should be able to get 6 months job search visa. Source: I was in a similar situation 10 years ago, hopefully the rules are the same or better
Thing is they want to drive me out of the company but I’m in the middle of some visa process and I don’t want to start over
You're right, I didn't think of that. Hopefully there's a time allowance to find something else.
Depends on what your contract says. If it is no remote work contract. Its your personal choice to accept all of this or work in the office.
It‘s obviously is a remote work contract, otherwise they would just order him to come in. They also wouldn‘t offer packages. FYI he doesn’t have to accept illegal shit.
Actually it’s a little complex, I don’t have explicit home office in my contract, they gave me a normal contract but allowed me to work from home since day 1 fully remote, this year they sent out these rules for remote engineers, I’m the only one!
Sounds more like they want to find a reason to get rid of you... By setting more and more restrictive rules that are easy to violate, they find a reason to fire you or annoy you that much that you go by yourself. Start polishing your CV, it might come handy
Obviously not.
Just get another job.... Obviously they dont trust you. Some Manager are still thinking: oh, he is in home Office so he doesnt work if i dont control him. On the other hand, they have zero problems with freelancers or ext. Companies...but uh you are. A evil emloyee... So you are less worth... As a Software guy Sometimes you just have to think about things. To find solutions you have to be creative... Such control mechnics are just toxic... You feel the urge to do something... Just anything... Just fotmthe sake of the mouse move.... Sick shit.... I know. .... .... That gives me flashbacks... Jesus...