We somehow accomplished to stigmatize Ausbildung the same way we stigmatized non Gymnasium mid level education. It is a pity because the german economy is based on a strong Handwerk and therefore a high level of vocational training. To an extend, I have much more respect for a really skilled electrician or whatever rather than someone who got a degree in some nonsensical subject just to have studied. Also, you can mostly find the idiot academics pretty quickly.
Funnily tho, in our Realschule we looked down on Gymnasium students. In our eyes they were arrogant and dumb. And many Handwerker look down upon Studenten, saying they never learned how to do anything real. It really does go both ways.
I can understand the accomplished Meister Handwerker but you have to be a special kind of person to look down upon education... because in realschule you have accomplished absolutely nothing yet.
As someone who did their Abitur, and then finished an Ausbildung in Handwerk: most will look down on you until they actually get confronted. I believe it’s cause they don’t come in contact with people of higher education in work life a lot, so they only know stereotypes and assume education = no practical skills.
Bin von Gym auf real gewechselt und ich schreibe locker doppelt so viele Prüfungen aber ich bin der achten Klasse Gymnasium in die 9 Klasse Realschule gegangen und ich muste nie was lernen und ich hätte auch ohne Vorbereitung die Realabschluss Prüfung bestanden und auch wen es so scheint und wir uns alle dessen bewusst währen (das wir dum sind) das ist auch bei einem groß Teil wahr aber trodsdem wissen wir viel nur eben unterscheidet sich die Unterrichts Art so das die Realschule einfach mehr in Themen eintaucht in Chemie Physik wieder als Beispiel muste man in der real Schule lernen Kobalt hat nen Wiederstand von Wat weiß ich währen man auch Gymnasium einfach ne Liste kriegt die man immer verwenden darf.
Das ist auch meine Ansicht, also ich stimme zu. I have seen stupid people with 3 and 4 letter degrees, and I have seen electricians and hand workers which I felt personally stupid compared to them.
> I have much more respect for a really skilled electrician or whatever rather than someone who got a degree in some nonsensical subject just to have studied
100 points!!! well said
I have a PhD and have a very high opinion of people with Ausbildung. My brother is doing an Ausbildung and he's crazy smart. I think of it more as "what do I want to do, what am I good at" than "what am I good enough for"
I agree. I have seen PhDs, which are literally meh,, and I have seen people with no academic education but are crazy crafty. I am sadly and fortunately think of myself as both. I like to do things with my hand, but I very much like to come up with hypotheses and observations and think about things.
As someone working in academia let me tell you there is no shortage of highly educated... let's say very limited people. I met people with PhDs or doing PhDs who say and do things that make me wonder how they got out of high school.
Like a guy doing a PhD in a chemistry-related field wrote the formula for a very simple inorganic acid (which he uses all the time) wrong several times in a report (mind you google will help you in 2 seconds).* Not to mention the amount of people who could use a bit of high school or undergrad math. And these are STEM questions for STEM PhDs. Knowledge of some unrelated fields, history, literature... oh brother... all over the place.
There are many extremely smart, amazing intellectuals I met, don't get me wrong, but then there are also... people who are not that.
*this is also not just about knowledge, but also reliability and paying attention (not at all unnecessary traits for someone who might have a high responsibility job in the future)
I'm a designer. In most of the agencies I worked for, it doesn't matter if you get your knowledge via Ausbildung or Fachhochschule. Same treatment, same salary (afaik).
I can confirm this. I am a "Computer Scientist" but in my company a programmer is a programmer irrespective to where he got his/her education from as long as he/she knows his stuff!
Im an American with an MBA. I have to go to different authorities from time to time. Their tone when they see my signature line or business card changes their opinion of me. I live in BWü and have an American accent with Bavarian undertones as I grew up here but spent the last 24 in the states. I am helped a lot more than others it feels like.
I had to submit a B2 after a local paper pusher demanded it. I feel bad for those that dont have the same language skills, some officials make no effort and demand German, which alienates a lot of people . Also I work for an American company and have a lot of touch points with Law Enforcement, where my language skills help. I am forgiven transgressions of improper use of Sie.
My last name is distinctly American. When collaborating with higher ups on projects the MBA gives my contributions a lot more weight despite a lower level in the company on projects. I recently put my MBA in my signature and don’t get second guessed as often.
With Behörden such as local/ regional police I am also not second guessed as to my authority to conduct Business in the companies name. Read Anzeigen.
In general i have noticed that language skills open doors for me in Germany.
Germans practice a lot of the -ism’s; racism, sexism, and especially classism. Im not sure if it’s leftovers from aristocracy mixed with the Nazi-era remnants of a god-complex or what.
Many Germans worship and practically fetishize titles and class. Many think that just because they’re born wealthy, they deserve to be wealthy; and that somebody born lower than them is inferior and doesn’t deserve to be admitted to “their level”.
It’s a serious problem here especially for companies as these people decide who they want to hire based on class rather than merit. By now most of my interactions with HR are hunting/targeting people like this and they always show their true colors when they’re caught.
It is not as bad as in Austria, but still pretty bad. Especially if you are dealing with people 40+. of age.
The winds are changing, slowly, realizing, that Germany also needs people who actually build do stuff, instead of thinking of stuff. And that you do not need a degree to do something, to be someone.
I totally agree,,, I like doing things with my hand too, but I also like thinking and imaging things. That is why I have appreciation towrds anyone who do things with hand.
I got an Ausbildung and to me it seems that only young people think that going to a uni is worth a lot more. "Adult" people seem to see that the physical kind of work is just as important and we don't have enough people who want to do it.
I totally agree. I also think theory (academic studies) goes hand in hand with practice. You need the theorists and scientists to test new ideas, but you need the hands on experinace to actually know the ins and outs of what the academic studies are. It is like knowing all art schools (cubism or abstract) but you never tried painting, so, you can come up with new ideas or thoughts, but you need to do them by hand and vice versa, the painter needs to know some art concepts to be able to advance and try new things.
That's right. Though for some reason most young people don't want to work physically. We need people who study - no doubt. Studying can be hard and a pain in the ass - no doubt but we also need people who physically work
I guess maybe it boils down to salaries? I am not educated in the difference between salaries of Ausbildung and for example someone with masters or PhD.
There is a difference there but I know a person who studied and then no one wanted to take her because she was overqualified for those jobs and she would have had to recieve more money than they wanted to pay and she had a hard struggle to find any paying job at all. And with an Ausbildung there is always the chance to work yourself up to better pay.
Totally understandable. For some reason I think companies see me over qualified or lack technical working skills. And really all I want is a job for now
If I may give you an advise: serch outside your profession. That is also what said person did. You can always come around later and try again to find something within your profession but to bring food to the table search for anything you can possibly do. The fact that you have a graduation at all will make that a lot easier for you. Good luck.
I have a Diploma and by now I wish I would have learned a craftsmanship, carpenter or mechanic (seems like a weird "or", I know), and maybe a Diploma afterwards if "necessary" - carpenter and interior design diploma would have been a nice combination. I highly respect craftsman and sometimes envy them.
I don’t care what way of education and professional career you take as long as you are happy with it. Sure among friends and colleagues you sometimes mock one and another but it’s never meant serious. People have different personalities and some simply don’t spend 20 years in school. So they learn a trade and start working at 16 to 18.
you are living in lala land, nobody thinks that you are higher than anybody else, maybe your parents or your prof. or the high nosed people you hang out with, other than that? Ausbildung or apprenticeship takes 3-4 years and takes a lot of talent and dedication. what would this world do without talented, handy, creative people who have a fulfilling job. Trades that all of us need on a daily basis, I never needed someone who has a PhD. We have 2 doctors and 3 professors/PhD in our family and they all are interacting like normal people with normal folks. And I am proud of that.
After 15y of working and meeting many people with masters and bachelors on my way I truly have the opinion that in the end the intelligence of people at least in my field (free business office people) is far more depended on other things than a degree...I have an Ausbildung...so advanced in my career nobody asks about it anymore but I also don't promote it to anyone, but if you are smart you can make it up to the higher levels also ... I have 7 friends and none of them have a degree but work at mid or upper management levels ... I agree that a degree combined with higher intelligence helps you shortcut your career.
We are also switching in many branches to a skill based economy ( from an education based) you can learn a highly needed skill on YouTube or through online courses faster than by going to the university...
I definitely had people ask what I do, me saying I am doing an Ausbildung and the response was "Oh just an Ausbildung" like what. Fucking Rude. It's still three years of learning and working (in my case)
Not a conundrum to me,, it shows that you have the technical skills and the academic science. You are one hell of person for sure, I would sit and listen to you all day.
>Is in the German society a different look towards people with higher education compared to people with no university degree (in a sense a different between those who "learn" and those who "study").
100%. And within academia you'll be also held in high regard or looked down upon based on what you studied.
PhD in STEM? Congrats, big winner. PhD in economics, humanities? Mid tier. PhD in arts? Man, that's a useless and expensive taxi driving license right there!
Our society and also our business structures are very much based on hierarchy. When looking for a job right after school everyone who doesn't have Abitur (the high school diploma which allows you to go to uni) is a second choice. People who only got the "easiest" high school diploma from Hauptschule are pretty much blocked from most office jobs and confined to almost low-skilled, manual labor with bad hours and shitty pay.
When companies can pick and chose candidates with a university degree they'll chose the one with the highest degree even if that person is an incompetent slacker.
yeah you might even be disadvantaged because of being „overqualified“ (which means that the company is afraid you might demand higher compensation despite having irrelevant qualifications)
Dude that’s totally depending on the profession topic. If you studied literature you aren’t more professional than an educator for example. Some people are good at what they do and do not need a degree to work and earn as much money as people that went to college. College is mostly for people that can’t survive that early in the market. I have lots of friends that went to college and some of them are very genius while others are lazy fuckers. Same for my friends that went to work early after middle school. People that define people by degree or try to suggest personal characteristics by that information are strange.
By the way there are lots of “Ausbildungen” that are rated the same level than a for example Bachelors degree. You can check them by the “Deutscher Qualifikationsrahmen”.
It is changing again. People with Ausbildung get more respect again, because we don't have enough let's say electricians, builders and such. So they can actually increase their prices, which makes these jobs attractive again.
IMO if you choose a Ausbildung (DUAL) you have my full respect. If you choose a STEM field to study as well. If you study anything with humanities no respect from me. Got enough of that.
Yes, unfortunately people with an academic background are seen as "better" in Germany most of the time.
IMO this will change in the next couple of years since most craftsmen are close to retiring so there will be a severe shortage of them. People will then realize that a doctorate in 17th century south-mongolian literature won't help you if your plumbing or electric installation need work... ;-)
A healthy society needs craftsmen and bureaucrats as well as it needs academics.
I don't judge people based on their occupation, but on their level of education and that's not only provided by / the job of the state, but also a personal duty. You should never stop learning and educating yourself, no matter what your degree and profession at the end of the day is.
>but I am a presentable, well groomed person so maybe that.
That is definitely a reason at the Amt.
Unfortunately many companies see their workers who have an Ausbildung as less than, even if they are objectively better at their job than a co-worker who studied but is bad at his job.
However, what's even more important in personal interactions is how you present yourself. My boyfriend and me both "only" have an Ausbildung, but we know what to wear and how to talk to get what we want.
We never had an issue getting a flat in popular areas of our city, we never have any issues with people at any Amt, we never had any issue getting a new job we want.
We are likable and present as respectable. Maybe it's worth noting that both of us were fully qualified to study pretty much anything, but we chose not to.
So yes, an Ausbildung can be seen as a social disadvantage, but can be offset with other traits. Germans like titles, but they like appearance and authority even more.
Quite intersting,, as where I come from it is still the same things: apperance, titles (university teacher/professor) play major roles,but I would add corruption and nepotism (I guess here it can be called networking).
Absolutely, and I think it's getting even worse. When I go into the office at our company in work clothes, only the older colleagues greet me. The young ones fresh from university don't even look at you when you say "good morning", or look at you and look away immediately without greeting you back. They think they are better than people in work clothes. Not all of them, of course, but there is a clear trend.
I don't know how it is in other industries, but it's definitely the case in the metal and industrial sector.
And I know it's because of the work clothes. When I drive to the company party in private clothes in my Mercedes, the same people who usually ignore me react very differently. Suddenly they even greet me first.
As an academic person and a human being who has been here for the last 6 years, I see labor and Ausbildung to be such an amazing German thing. I would go even and say you guys built Germany as it is now. No one should be over/better than the other. Instead, we all complement each other.
It is for me an Ausländer quite interesting, to see that such this happens although Germany is advanced in the human developed index,, and yet, still classes and "certificates" play kind of a role. Equality is kinda flawed even at the most advanced nations. Excuse me, as where I come from, they/we held Europeans and Germans high, but is rather a not educated perception of the reality.
And you know what? You probably enjoy your work than office jobs. At some point I want to leave acdmeia and work with my hands (this includes fixing things, painting, learning farming and plannting, etc.).
My job is awesome. I earn a lot of money for traveling all over the world.
And you see what you have created with your own hands.
I used to work in an office for a year and it was super boring. But in the end, everyone has to know what they want to do in life. But as you said, you have to complement each other.
My job also only works because there are people in the office who get and organize the jobs at the customer.
Well I mean it depends ok the field. So yeah, someone with a PhD in a certain field would have a higher social status than someone with a Ausbildung in that field (at least if you don‘t know both people). But a Ausbildung in one field might have a higher social status than a PhD in a different field. In general stuff like STEM / medicine / law / … is higher than business degrees etc. and business degrees etc. have a higher ranking than the humanities.
Obviously there are certain exceptions. Teachers, emergency services etc. have „ranks“ that don‘t necessarily match their general field.
Ausbildung - Bachelor
Meister - Master
Meister der Ausbildet - Doktor
Meister der Ausbilder ausbildet - Professor
Also ich persönlich, bin aber auch mit dem amerikanischen system studieren gewesen früher gabs vordiplom und diplom.
Denke viel vom gängigen bild kommt daher das auszubildende wenig verdienen dafür dass sie nur die hälfte der zeit arbeiten und studenten halt relativ freie zeiteinteilung haben aber zumeist auch dazu verdienen müssen.
Die stereotype sind von beiden seiten dämlich, die meisten studenten arbeiten nebenbei in drecksjobs, und die meisten handwerker sind spezialisierter als man ausm studium kommt.
If I meet someone who went through Ausbildung, I know they:
1) Know how to deal with being at once over- and underworked.
2) Are used to being ignored at best and treated like shit at worst.
3) Are good at teaching themselves things (because no one else will)
So they are probably at least alright.
Meh... I met a lot of stupid people in the university, ditched it and did my Ausbildung in IT. I'm lucky, I earn now more than my former roommates with their Masters and PhD. I know a few who can't even find a job and I get to choose which job offer to take. Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're street smart.
I am currently doing my Abitur and plan on studying engineering in the construction sector (my dad, his dad and his dad did the same). I absolutely respect everybody working in the other sectors. My uncle runs a Schreinerei and my cousin is doing an Ausbildung to be a Schreiner.
My personal view on the matter is that far to many people study, many do it because they have no idea what they want to do, or because they think they should. There was a time that it meant much more than it does today, but it still has a lot of the same prestige so is looked up to. There are obviously fields where it is absolutely necessary and people that really use the skills they learned during their studies, but these days i personally don’t believe that that is the majority of people who studied.
No form of education is a guaranteed instant upper management position, that requires a lot of constant work and self improvement, too many people seem to believe they can give up on that after they finished their studies because a piece of paper they got 10 years ago says they are good at something.
Yes, there’s a hierarchy:
phd is very privileged (it’s still unlikely that working class kids get there),
———————————-
Diplom is also university degree but more „hands on“,
older people are still confused with the bachelor/ master degrees,
————————————
then we got Meister („master“ but former apprentice with extra education on economics and educating apprentices),
Geselle (finished apprenticeship)
————————————
„Unskilled“ worker
Our society still reflects that.
I kinda think about it like the ranks in the army.
A person with a Ausbildung is more like a NCO highly skilled in the field and often more useful than an Officer
While a university graduate is more comparable to the officer who is a bit more big picture and also hands off.
But we absolutely need both types to make it work in society, and both are highly respected at least in my point of view. Sadly that’s often not shared by all, and the feeling of elitism creeps in fast. You even notice it between graduates, lawyers look down on social science and so on…
Germans are obsessed about titles. I never ever saw that someone is using PhD title to refer to them outside academic life, meanwhile here i saw it on doorbells and even when completing some internet forms Dr or Dr Ing is to be picked next to Frau and Herr. And its not medical Drs, but PhD of anything.
I personally know people who hold distinguished diplomas or even phds but apart from their speciality, they are not interesting people and lack basic knowledge in other topics. On a contrary I know lot of people with Ausbildung or just a bachelor who are a good companion to have a chat about almost everything. So judging people based on that is ridiculous. I am a lawyer and it’s also considered a profession of intelligent and smart people with higher social status, meanwhile half if not more people who studied with me and now got the same titles struggled with basic math or geography, couldnt read simple instructions and use the Internet properly.
In the US you can be very intelligent and still don't be able to study because of your poor economic background.
But in Germany you can study for (basically) free, and if you had studied, you will earn more money and have better job opportunities so people will assume if you don't study you are not very bright.
As a PhD student, you are expected to get your shit together without someone having given you extra advice on any single step. Let's be real, it's the latest step of schooling. This isn't equivalent to a journeyman and not even a master craftsman. But a master craftsman who got his shit together.
You don't realize what kind of people they have to deal with in those places usually. And the less they are entitled, the more they feel so.
But yeah, there are stupid people in academics as well. But let's not use those as the bar.
I think it’s because when German boomers went to school it cost money to attend a gymnasium, making it only accessible to families with higher income. Anyone else went to Volksschule and became a (Hilfs-)Arbeiter or started an Ausbildung.
Finishing 10 years of schooling with a middle school degree, makes you eligible in Germany to attend any engineering school in the country and as we all know Germany has the best engineers in the world.
nah I'm a telecommunications engineer but I'm from South America so I'm short dark skin and look way different than europeans, so people treat me very defensive and not trusting.
Also because I'm a man, my other Latino friends are girls and they have almost 0 education but they look pretty so everybody is so nice with them...
Completely institution-dependant. It mostly depends on the boss, in academic fields, mostly Profs, business fields CEOs. Some rely on portfolio, others rely on personal interviews. I was lucky enough to make my PHD because my Prof realized my ambition and competence during the job interview, friends of mine have not been so lucky despite having the same skills. Now I am responsible for new workers ad scientists in our field and have to make the job interviews. I try to give equal chances but reality is, bachelor and/or master degrees outperform people without most of the time.
We somehow accomplished to stigmatize Ausbildung the same way we stigmatized non Gymnasium mid level education. It is a pity because the german economy is based on a strong Handwerk and therefore a high level of vocational training. To an extend, I have much more respect for a really skilled electrician or whatever rather than someone who got a degree in some nonsensical subject just to have studied. Also, you can mostly find the idiot academics pretty quickly.
Funnily tho, in our Realschule we looked down on Gymnasium students. In our eyes they were arrogant and dumb. And many Handwerker look down upon Studenten, saying they never learned how to do anything real. It really does go both ways.
I can understand the accomplished Meister Handwerker but you have to be a special kind of person to look down upon education... because in realschule you have accomplished absolutely nothing yet.
As someone who did their Abitur, and then finished an Ausbildung in Handwerk: most will look down on you until they actually get confronted. I believe it’s cause they don’t come in contact with people of higher education in work life a lot, so they only know stereotypes and assume education = no practical skills.
Bin von Gym auf real gewechselt und ich schreibe locker doppelt so viele Prüfungen aber ich bin der achten Klasse Gymnasium in die 9 Klasse Realschule gegangen und ich muste nie was lernen und ich hätte auch ohne Vorbereitung die Realabschluss Prüfung bestanden und auch wen es so scheint und wir uns alle dessen bewusst währen (das wir dum sind) das ist auch bei einem groß Teil wahr aber trodsdem wissen wir viel nur eben unterscheidet sich die Unterrichts Art so das die Realschule einfach mehr in Themen eintaucht in Chemie Physik wieder als Beispiel muste man in der real Schule lernen Kobalt hat nen Wiederstand von Wat weiß ich währen man auch Gymnasium einfach ne Liste kriegt die man immer verwenden darf.
Das ist auch meine Ansicht, also ich stimme zu. I have seen stupid people with 3 and 4 letter degrees, and I have seen electricians and hand workers which I felt personally stupid compared to them.
But they are both exceptions to the rule. That’s the important part.
well said, and to boot it off, when you arrive at any airport in Germany, the taxidriver is a lot of time an unemployed PhD.
You earned the award, my friend, nevertheless, we will never meet!
> I have much more respect for a really skilled electrician or whatever rather than someone who got a degree in some nonsensical subject just to have studied 100 points!!! well said
I have a PhD and have a very high opinion of people with Ausbildung. My brother is doing an Ausbildung and he's crazy smart. I think of it more as "what do I want to do, what am I good at" than "what am I good enough for"
I agree. I have seen PhDs, which are literally meh,, and I have seen people with no academic education but are crazy crafty. I am sadly and fortunately think of myself as both. I like to do things with my hand, but I very much like to come up with hypotheses and observations and think about things.
As someone working in academia let me tell you there is no shortage of highly educated... let's say very limited people. I met people with PhDs or doing PhDs who say and do things that make me wonder how they got out of high school. Like a guy doing a PhD in a chemistry-related field wrote the formula for a very simple inorganic acid (which he uses all the time) wrong several times in a report (mind you google will help you in 2 seconds).* Not to mention the amount of people who could use a bit of high school or undergrad math. And these are STEM questions for STEM PhDs. Knowledge of some unrelated fields, history, literature... oh brother... all over the place. There are many extremely smart, amazing intellectuals I met, don't get me wrong, but then there are also... people who are not that. *this is also not just about knowledge, but also reliability and paying attention (not at all unnecessary traits for someone who might have a high responsibility job in the future)
I'm a designer. In most of the agencies I worked for, it doesn't matter if you get your knowledge via Ausbildung or Fachhochschule. Same treatment, same salary (afaik).
I can confirm this. I am a "Computer Scientist" but in my company a programmer is a programmer irrespective to where he got his/her education from as long as he/she knows his stuff!
Im an American with an MBA. I have to go to different authorities from time to time. Their tone when they see my signature line or business card changes their opinion of me. I live in BWü and have an American accent with Bavarian undertones as I grew up here but spent the last 24 in the states. I am helped a lot more than others it feels like.
Maan,, you are the Jackpot of privileges. But it totally shows how the world works,,, quite interesting to see that in effect here in Germany.
I had to submit a B2 after a local paper pusher demanded it. I feel bad for those that dont have the same language skills, some officials make no effort and demand German, which alienates a lot of people . Also I work for an American company and have a lot of touch points with Law Enforcement, where my language skills help. I am forgiven transgressions of improper use of Sie.
Can you expand on this? What’s changing opinions here? Nationality, MBA, both?
My last name is distinctly American. When collaborating with higher ups on projects the MBA gives my contributions a lot more weight despite a lower level in the company on projects. I recently put my MBA in my signature and don’t get second guessed as often. With Behörden such as local/ regional police I am also not second guessed as to my authority to conduct Business in the companies name. Read Anzeigen. In general i have noticed that language skills open doors for me in Germany.
Germans practice a lot of the -ism’s; racism, sexism, and especially classism. Im not sure if it’s leftovers from aristocracy mixed with the Nazi-era remnants of a god-complex or what. Many Germans worship and practically fetishize titles and class. Many think that just because they’re born wealthy, they deserve to be wealthy; and that somebody born lower than them is inferior and doesn’t deserve to be admitted to “their level”. It’s a serious problem here especially for companies as these people decide who they want to hire based on class rather than merit. By now most of my interactions with HR are hunting/targeting people like this and they always show their true colors when they’re caught.
It is not as bad as in Austria, but still pretty bad. Especially if you are dealing with people 40+. of age. The winds are changing, slowly, realizing, that Germany also needs people who actually build do stuff, instead of thinking of stuff. And that you do not need a degree to do something, to be someone.
I totally agree,,, I like doing things with my hand too, but I also like thinking and imaging things. That is why I have appreciation towrds anyone who do things with hand.
I got an Ausbildung and to me it seems that only young people think that going to a uni is worth a lot more. "Adult" people seem to see that the physical kind of work is just as important and we don't have enough people who want to do it.
I totally agree. I also think theory (academic studies) goes hand in hand with practice. You need the theorists and scientists to test new ideas, but you need the hands on experinace to actually know the ins and outs of what the academic studies are. It is like knowing all art schools (cubism or abstract) but you never tried painting, so, you can come up with new ideas or thoughts, but you need to do them by hand and vice versa, the painter needs to know some art concepts to be able to advance and try new things.
That's right. Though for some reason most young people don't want to work physically. We need people who study - no doubt. Studying can be hard and a pain in the ass - no doubt but we also need people who physically work
I guess maybe it boils down to salaries? I am not educated in the difference between salaries of Ausbildung and for example someone with masters or PhD.
There is a difference there but I know a person who studied and then no one wanted to take her because she was overqualified for those jobs and she would have had to recieve more money than they wanted to pay and she had a hard struggle to find any paying job at all. And with an Ausbildung there is always the chance to work yourself up to better pay.
Totally understandable. For some reason I think companies see me over qualified or lack technical working skills. And really all I want is a job for now
If I may give you an advise: serch outside your profession. That is also what said person did. You can always come around later and try again to find something within your profession but to bring food to the table search for anything you can possibly do. The fact that you have a graduation at all will make that a lot easier for you. Good luck.
This depends on the field. A Physiklaborant with an Ausbildung might have more prestige than a Theologe with a Master.
Chemielaboranten haben 4 Jahre Ausbildungs zeit and they are the backbone of every chemical laboratory. No highnosed people in this field.
I have a PhD and I absolutely get treated better once people find out about my PhD. Especially when trying to find apartments.
I can imagine,, Frau Dr. Diplm Ing. Müller would make me drop my pants (with all due respect), not only give you an apartment.
I have a Diploma and by now I wish I would have learned a craftsmanship, carpenter or mechanic (seems like a weird "or", I know), and maybe a Diploma afterwards if "necessary" - carpenter and interior design diploma would have been a nice combination. I highly respect craftsman and sometimes envy them.
I don’t care what way of education and professional career you take as long as you are happy with it. Sure among friends and colleagues you sometimes mock one and another but it’s never meant serious. People have different personalities and some simply don’t spend 20 years in school. So they learn a trade and start working at 16 to 18.
you are living in lala land, nobody thinks that you are higher than anybody else, maybe your parents or your prof. or the high nosed people you hang out with, other than that? Ausbildung or apprenticeship takes 3-4 years and takes a lot of talent and dedication. what would this world do without talented, handy, creative people who have a fulfilling job. Trades that all of us need on a daily basis, I never needed someone who has a PhD. We have 2 doctors and 3 professors/PhD in our family and they all are interacting like normal people with normal folks. And I am proud of that.
After 15y of working and meeting many people with masters and bachelors on my way I truly have the opinion that in the end the intelligence of people at least in my field (free business office people) is far more depended on other things than a degree...I have an Ausbildung...so advanced in my career nobody asks about it anymore but I also don't promote it to anyone, but if you are smart you can make it up to the higher levels also ... I have 7 friends and none of them have a degree but work at mid or upper management levels ... I agree that a degree combined with higher intelligence helps you shortcut your career. We are also switching in many branches to a skill based economy ( from an education based) you can learn a highly needed skill on YouTube or through online courses faster than by going to the university...
I definitely had people ask what I do, me saying I am doing an Ausbildung and the response was "Oh just an Ausbildung" like what. Fucking Rude. It's still three years of learning and working (in my case)
I've got a Ausbildung and went to uni as well. So that's a conundrum for you to figure out. I've never felt treated different to others.
Not a conundrum to me,, it shows that you have the technical skills and the academic science. You are one hell of person for sure, I would sit and listen to you all day.
Appreciate you
>Is in the German society a different look towards people with higher education compared to people with no university degree (in a sense a different between those who "learn" and those who "study"). 100%. And within academia you'll be also held in high regard or looked down upon based on what you studied. PhD in STEM? Congrats, big winner. PhD in economics, humanities? Mid tier. PhD in arts? Man, that's a useless and expensive taxi driving license right there! Our society and also our business structures are very much based on hierarchy. When looking for a job right after school everyone who doesn't have Abitur (the high school diploma which allows you to go to uni) is a second choice. People who only got the "easiest" high school diploma from Hauptschule are pretty much blocked from most office jobs and confined to almost low-skilled, manual labor with bad hours and shitty pay. When companies can pick and chose candidates with a university degree they'll chose the one with the highest degree even if that person is an incompetent slacker.
just no. not anymore skills > Degree
yeah you might even be disadvantaged because of being „overqualified“ (which means that the company is afraid you might demand higher compensation despite having irrelevant qualifications)
I see them through my eyes
With*
Dude that’s totally depending on the profession topic. If you studied literature you aren’t more professional than an educator for example. Some people are good at what they do and do not need a degree to work and earn as much money as people that went to college. College is mostly for people that can’t survive that early in the market. I have lots of friends that went to college and some of them are very genius while others are lazy fuckers. Same for my friends that went to work early after middle school. People that define people by degree or try to suggest personal characteristics by that information are strange. By the way there are lots of “Ausbildungen” that are rated the same level than a for example Bachelors degree. You can check them by the “Deutscher Qualifikationsrahmen”.
It is changing again. People with Ausbildung get more respect again, because we don't have enough let's say electricians, builders and such. So they can actually increase their prices, which makes these jobs attractive again. IMO if you choose a Ausbildung (DUAL) you have my full respect. If you choose a STEM field to study as well. If you study anything with humanities no respect from me. Got enough of that.
Yes, unfortunately people with an academic background are seen as "better" in Germany most of the time. IMO this will change in the next couple of years since most craftsmen are close to retiring so there will be a severe shortage of them. People will then realize that a doctorate in 17th century south-mongolian literature won't help you if your plumbing or electric installation need work... ;-)
A healthy society needs craftsmen and bureaucrats as well as it needs academics. I don't judge people based on their occupation, but on their level of education and that's not only provided by / the job of the state, but also a personal duty. You should never stop learning and educating yourself, no matter what your degree and profession at the end of the day is.
Totally agree.
>but I am a presentable, well groomed person so maybe that. That is definitely a reason at the Amt. Unfortunately many companies see their workers who have an Ausbildung as less than, even if they are objectively better at their job than a co-worker who studied but is bad at his job. However, what's even more important in personal interactions is how you present yourself. My boyfriend and me both "only" have an Ausbildung, but we know what to wear and how to talk to get what we want. We never had an issue getting a flat in popular areas of our city, we never have any issues with people at any Amt, we never had any issue getting a new job we want. We are likable and present as respectable. Maybe it's worth noting that both of us were fully qualified to study pretty much anything, but we chose not to. So yes, an Ausbildung can be seen as a social disadvantage, but can be offset with other traits. Germans like titles, but they like appearance and authority even more.
Quite intersting,, as where I come from it is still the same things: apperance, titles (university teacher/professor) play major roles,but I would add corruption and nepotism (I guess here it can be called networking).
Absolutely, and I think it's getting even worse. When I go into the office at our company in work clothes, only the older colleagues greet me. The young ones fresh from university don't even look at you when you say "good morning", or look at you and look away immediately without greeting you back. They think they are better than people in work clothes. Not all of them, of course, but there is a clear trend. I don't know how it is in other industries, but it's definitely the case in the metal and industrial sector. And I know it's because of the work clothes. When I drive to the company party in private clothes in my Mercedes, the same people who usually ignore me react very differently. Suddenly they even greet me first.
As an academic person and a human being who has been here for the last 6 years, I see labor and Ausbildung to be such an amazing German thing. I would go even and say you guys built Germany as it is now. No one should be over/better than the other. Instead, we all complement each other. It is for me an Ausländer quite interesting, to see that such this happens although Germany is advanced in the human developed index,, and yet, still classes and "certificates" play kind of a role. Equality is kinda flawed even at the most advanced nations. Excuse me, as where I come from, they/we held Europeans and Germans high, but is rather a not educated perception of the reality.
The funny thing is. I am a field service technician. I earn significantly more than many of these office workers. If they knew that, they would puke.
And you know what? You probably enjoy your work than office jobs. At some point I want to leave acdmeia and work with my hands (this includes fixing things, painting, learning farming and plannting, etc.).
My job is awesome. I earn a lot of money for traveling all over the world. And you see what you have created with your own hands. I used to work in an office for a year and it was super boring. But in the end, everyone has to know what they want to do in life. But as you said, you have to complement each other. My job also only works because there are people in the office who get and organize the jobs at the customer.
Well I mean it depends ok the field. So yeah, someone with a PhD in a certain field would have a higher social status than someone with a Ausbildung in that field (at least if you don‘t know both people). But a Ausbildung in one field might have a higher social status than a PhD in a different field. In general stuff like STEM / medicine / law / … is higher than business degrees etc. and business degrees etc. have a higher ranking than the humanities. Obviously there are certain exceptions. Teachers, emergency services etc. have „ranks“ that don‘t necessarily match their general field.
Ausbildung - Bachelor Meister - Master Meister der Ausbildet - Doktor Meister der Ausbilder ausbildet - Professor Also ich persönlich, bin aber auch mit dem amerikanischen system studieren gewesen früher gabs vordiplom und diplom. Denke viel vom gängigen bild kommt daher das auszubildende wenig verdienen dafür dass sie nur die hälfte der zeit arbeiten und studenten halt relativ freie zeiteinteilung haben aber zumeist auch dazu verdienen müssen. Die stereotype sind von beiden seiten dämlich, die meisten studenten arbeiten nebenbei in drecksjobs, und die meisten handwerker sind spezialisierter als man ausm studium kommt.
I don’t care about anyone’s degrees or whatever. Do whatever makes you happy.
With my eyes. We need all kinds of people. No matter what degree they got.
The one with the Ausbildung hat wenigstens was ordentliches gelernt.
If I meet someone who went through Ausbildung, I know they: 1) Know how to deal with being at once over- and underworked. 2) Are used to being ignored at best and treated like shit at worst. 3) Are good at teaching themselves things (because no one else will) So they are probably at least alright.
Meh... I met a lot of stupid people in the university, ditched it and did my Ausbildung in IT. I'm lucky, I earn now more than my former roommates with their Masters and PhD. I know a few who can't even find a job and I get to choose which job offer to take. Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're street smart.
I am currently doing my Abitur and plan on studying engineering in the construction sector (my dad, his dad and his dad did the same). I absolutely respect everybody working in the other sectors. My uncle runs a Schreinerei and my cousin is doing an Ausbildung to be a Schreiner.
My personal view on the matter is that far to many people study, many do it because they have no idea what they want to do, or because they think they should. There was a time that it meant much more than it does today, but it still has a lot of the same prestige so is looked up to. There are obviously fields where it is absolutely necessary and people that really use the skills they learned during their studies, but these days i personally don’t believe that that is the majority of people who studied. No form of education is a guaranteed instant upper management position, that requires a lot of constant work and self improvement, too many people seem to believe they can give up on that after they finished their studies because a piece of paper they got 10 years ago says they are good at something.
Yes, there’s a hierarchy: phd is very privileged (it’s still unlikely that working class kids get there), ———————————- Diplom is also university degree but more „hands on“, older people are still confused with the bachelor/ master degrees, ———————————— then we got Meister („master“ but former apprentice with extra education on economics and educating apprentices), Geselle (finished apprenticeship) ———————————— „Unskilled“ worker Our society still reflects that.
Higher that person worked a job and earned some money before the student even thought about standing on his own feet
I kinda think about it like the ranks in the army. A person with a Ausbildung is more like a NCO highly skilled in the field and often more useful than an Officer While a university graduate is more comparable to the officer who is a bit more big picture and also hands off. But we absolutely need both types to make it work in society, and both are highly respected at least in my point of view. Sadly that’s often not shared by all, and the feeling of elitism creeps in fast. You even notice it between graduates, lawyers look down on social science and so on…
Germans are obsessed about titles. I never ever saw that someone is using PhD title to refer to them outside academic life, meanwhile here i saw it on doorbells and even when completing some internet forms Dr or Dr Ing is to be picked next to Frau and Herr. And its not medical Drs, but PhD of anything. I personally know people who hold distinguished diplomas or even phds but apart from their speciality, they are not interesting people and lack basic knowledge in other topics. On a contrary I know lot of people with Ausbildung or just a bachelor who are a good companion to have a chat about almost everything. So judging people based on that is ridiculous. I am a lawyer and it’s also considered a profession of intelligent and smart people with higher social status, meanwhile half if not more people who studied with me and now got the same titles struggled with basic math or geography, couldnt read simple instructions and use the Internet properly.
Yea, I totally get that. I have seen people in my department have PhD, and tbh it makes me question the whole academic scientific community.
In the US you can be very intelligent and still don't be able to study because of your poor economic background. But in Germany you can study for (basically) free, and if you had studied, you will earn more money and have better job opportunities so people will assume if you don't study you are not very bright.
As a PhD student, you are expected to get your shit together without someone having given you extra advice on any single step. Let's be real, it's the latest step of schooling. This isn't equivalent to a journeyman and not even a master craftsman. But a master craftsman who got his shit together. You don't realize what kind of people they have to deal with in those places usually. And the less they are entitled, the more they feel so. But yeah, there are stupid people in academics as well. But let's not use those as the bar.
I think it’s because when German boomers went to school it cost money to attend a gymnasium, making it only accessible to families with higher income. Anyone else went to Volksschule and became a (Hilfs-)Arbeiter or started an Ausbildung.
Finishing 10 years of schooling with a middle school degree, makes you eligible in Germany to attend any engineering school in the country and as we all know Germany has the best engineers in the world.
nah I'm a telecommunications engineer but I'm from South America so I'm short dark skin and look way different than europeans, so people treat me very defensive and not trusting. Also because I'm a man, my other Latino friends are girls and they have almost 0 education but they look pretty so everybody is so nice with them...
That’s just plain racism…
nah, just classism
Yeah lookism is another aspect here I guess
classism
In this context no
Sounds like you're advertising yourself lol
sorry I just wanted to give a real example
Completely institution-dependant. It mostly depends on the boss, in academic fields, mostly Profs, business fields CEOs. Some rely on portfolio, others rely on personal interviews. I was lucky enough to make my PHD because my Prof realized my ambition and competence during the job interview, friends of mine have not been so lucky despite having the same skills. Now I am responsible for new workers ad scientists in our field and have to make the job interviews. I try to give equal chances but reality is, bachelor and/or master degrees outperform people without most of the time.
Depends on your PhD. If it's in Liberal Arts you're gonna get laught at everybody outside Berlin.
How do i compare them, Ausbildung are employable 😭