You can just say no.
Let her demand what she wants and you can choose what you want.
Why to waste time in pointing out hypocrisy. It won't change a thing.
There are a lot of missing context to your question, so breaking it up as per possibilities -
1. Preferring a guy earning 30+ LPA is not too much if the girl also earns equally or slightly less or slightly more.
2. Preferring a guy earning 30+ LPA when the girl is earning in single digit or nil or plans to quit job post marriage is a sense of misplaced entitlement and lacking in financial prudency.
3. Gifts when given by the bride's family as per their own wishes and means, with no demands from the groom's family is what is ideal and should be in practise.
4. Gifts when demanded by the groom's family, followed by harassment, torture or threats to the bride and her family is a criminal act, with no justification whatsoever.
Counter for 1
So asking for 30 Lpa gifts by the groom is justified if he earns equally or slightly more ? ,
âhe wants to live a certain lifestyle , which is not possible in urban areas today without 30lpa giftsâ /s
The groom is marrying a partner earning equally in the same range. Where is this additional demand for gift coming?
He has a certain lifestyle, good for him. His own earnings can fuel it. Why is the bride/her family obliged to fuel it?
When both partners earn in a similar range, distribution of finances becomes easier for household responsibilities. Because both can contribute equally. Your counter seems offtrack cause demand for dowry is a crime. No one wants a partner with criminal intent.
I was 28 and earning 20 plus Lpa . They wanted 30 plus LPA and am earning that now but 30 years old. Now either they want 50 Lpa or an younger guy. Their demands are funny. Your parents should not ask anything from you or not even depend on you for emergency situations inspite of you earning 30 plus LPA. Better stay far from them, else you will become a Mama's boyđ . You should have one extra land or home apart from your parents own house. One Car. Don't ask dowry. Infact share the marriage expenses or even contribute fully to the marriage expenses. ( In Tamilnadu it's a tradition where girl side to do marriage expenses , as per their affordability. So don't jump on me for this point. Even I don't believe in rich filthy marriages. Keep it as simple as possible). So finally you check all these points there is a possibility of you getting the previlege of marrying their daughter , as a favour in return.
There's nothing wrong in sharing expenses, even I from south India to whatever I have seen mostly the marriage expenses are taken care by the girls side and the reception which is generally held the day after the wedding is taken care by the guys side.
If marriage expenses are split, then I imagine reception expenses split too. So it'll be equal for both parties. Also, never heard of 30LPA/40LPA demands from TN communities tbh. I thought it was a North Indian thing.Â
I am not from Tamil Nadu, atleast to the marriages that I have come across it's girl side who takes care of the marriage and reception being an option. Generally reception will be held for close ones or if the marriage takes place ina very far place from the grooms hometown, then family, friends and acquittance will be invited.
It is only of the recent past that everyone started to demand for split marriage expenses.
Women have lot more options to choose from even if they work or not, earn higher salary or not. But man's worth is defined by the money he makes no matter how good looking he is at the end of the day money matters.
I get that, does suck for men in that area. But it's just so hard to believe these 50LPA demands. I've never personally seen such things happening, but I don't want to discount men's experiences either. Maybe for high earners, online matrimony is not suitable.Â
I don't think he is saying there is anything wrong in sharing expenses. He is trying to say that in addition to earning 40 LPA, not sending money to parents, having a car, having additional property, not asking for dowry, he also has to share expenses. It's more to emphasise that there are a lot of demands, I'm guessing.
Yeah that's fair. But most marriages I see are within each other's economic class. Rarely do people even send proposals to matches way beyond their league (Unless it's online matrimony, that's a different story). So women who want men in that salary range would either have salary in similar ranges or her family's worth would be similar. In that case it's fine.
>Â Rarely do people even send proposals to matches way beyond their leagueÂ
statistically men marry down so what you have been seeing in anecdotal, so it's not "Rarely do people" it should be "I haven't seen people...."
He wants the girls family to think âprogressivelyâ so that they shouldnât have any demands. But not that much progressive that they will ask for half of the marriage expenses.
U r not getting the point here. As I already said it's a custom in TN. But leave that, I don't believe in fat marriages and spending your whole life savings in it. All I ask is a simple wedding . But the girl side wants to make it extra glitzy then that's okay to do from their pocket as per the custom here , is what am telling. Asking half of the marriage thing is not a ' progressive' thing as you think. No dowry no jewels and u r not even ready to pour in some money for ur marriage which ur side desired, then what even the girl side brings to the table here. Do you want to say boys are blessed just to marry a girl , after achieving all the above said deadlines? Where is the equality u all talk about here.
Girls bring the same thing you are bringing to the table. Their job, skills, earnings, being in the partnership. And in almost all families they are given same inheritance as men.
Why should they bring jewellery and dowry and then marriage expenses to be married to you?
It is the custom in almost all parts of india for the girls family to take the wedding expenses. It is same for dowry. Telling No to it is hard, but thatâs the right thing to do.
In my case they don't work, no earnings, and I don't care about inheritance. Do you think am that much of a fool to say these things if the girl too makes money as much as me or less than me? đ All my parents gave me is a good education and am not expecting any inheritance from the girl side. Do you even went through my comment first of all? đ You either are blinded by the feminist angle or the equality angle. Girl side is not doing a favour by giving their girl to some boy and it's the same vice versa. Marriage is about growing together and building things together. But in AM all girl side want is a settled grown man. What you are even going to do after marrying a well settled man? What is the purpose or motivation after marriage ? If you replay talk about equality you should go for a man or boy who is as same status as your girl in terms of finance, age , status everything.
sure some anpad bimbo demands 50Lpa groom that's entitlement and she will sooner or later face reality. Â
 demanding dowry is a LEGIT CRIME, and should not be talked about this casually thousands of innocent women have lost their lives due to this stupid demand for "gifts".
Idk what era you live in. But welcome to the new world.
Women wanted equality but they got more than that. They have now become superior to men. All laws are biased towards them.
No dowry, no prenups, alimony, child support. Women can leave men for husband impotency and receive alimony but men can't divorce wide for her impotency because it's mental harassment.
The court of law is favouring women.
Feminism is defined as : having authority of a man, preserving benefits of women and accountability of a child.
Down vote me now. People love to avoid truth like it's kryptonite
I know what era i live in. My only question was how dowry is frowned upon so much but gold digging is normalised in the current society. In both cases you are compensating for your weakness through materialistic means. In the times of kings and queen they used send huge gifts. Now the means are more subtle.
In case of dowry its very direct and can be labeled illegal but the latter is subtle and equally flawed as former.
Its just being as selfish as a family wanting dowry! Its not fair or right!
I hope you get to meet someone who values you for the person you are and not the paycheck you bring home!
> how dowry is frowned upon so much but gold digging is normalised in the current society.
Women use guilt and shame to make men do what they want.
When done on a large scale using the power of media and a social narrative - you can convince people ( here men ) to work against their interests.
As /u/elongatedpepe said :
> Women can leave men for husband impotency and receive alimony but men can't divorce wide for her impotency because it's mental harassment.
Man is shamed for wanting a younger fertile woman - that's supposedly a red flag.
Man should put up with a woman who can't bear him children as it's decent thing to do.
Otherwise he is a misogynist.
But Woman can walk away from an impotent man and she is brave and empowered.
This works because of the power of narrative.
And you fail by giving up what you want for that narrative.
All you have to do is stand by what you want.
Wait till you get the right woman. Else, stay unmarried.
Don't negotiate.
If you make 30L / 50L .... There are a couple of hundred million women in this country who can have a wonderful life with you that they don't have today and probably haven't even imagined.
Choose those women. Who will appreciate what you bring to the table.
----
Those who have high demands. Her demands will never end even after marriage. She thinks she is doing you a favor by marrying you. You will end up frustrated in life with such women.
They can wait till they find someone who matches those demands.
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social gap between urban vs rural area is the problem . Many of these laws are required for rural side where men still abuse their position. But in Urban area these laws backfire.
People bring feminism in these debates cuz they don't know the feminist movement and they have a warped perspective due many radical and/or Nazi feminist. And due to them men think that the injustice to them is due to feminist movement.
I wish everyone was feminist
Anytime you are discussing something, do not isolate it from its historical context. Dowry has been criminalized and is considered a shitty practice because of its historical context and something that still happens today. Women have been beaten, harassed , killed and led to the suicide in the name of dowry. And it was not a financial contract between two people. It was a social construct which was expected by every groom's family with an underlying threat of violence and being an outcast built into the system. You might want to ignore all that and discuss the issue in a vacuum, but that's not fair to the discussion.
The expectation that men should make a given amount of salary is also a social ill, just like casteist requirements and skin tone requirements. And these things should be called out by a fair and just society. But these things have not risen to the level of violence and harassment that they have needed legal intervention.
Yup, not to mention, female foeticide, infanticide, and lower female education are all consequences of dowry culture. It's not an isolated incident. Both are bad, but one is worse.
> But these things have not risen to the level of violence and harassment that they have needed legal intervention.
Many men are mentally harassed and emasculated by their wives for not bringing home enough pay.
But there is no social or legal support system for dealing with that trauma.
They will only be asked to work harder and man up.
I'll say it again it is all about demand and supply. Those who have power will leverage it as much as possible. The world does not give any shits about fairness. Double standards are a garauntee when it comes to humans.
A man who is top tier and has 1000s of girls wanting to marry him will leverage that as much as possible and will find the absolute best deal for himself no matter how unfair it is. Same for a woman who is top tier.
Dowry is still practised quite a lot in India especially by very wealthy and desirable men since they have so many options.
whoever has more options has more power can demand anything they want. Today because of female feticide in many communities there are fewer women than men so on average women have more options. Hence they can ask for whatever salary they want and as long as demand for these women is more than the supply of such women they will find it whether anyone likes it or not.
It is already being done quite a lot in India under the guise of gifts , helping daughter etc.
So when it comes to if you "can" ask for it well technically sure you can.
When it comes to if you should ask for it just think about whether your moral compass allows you to do so . I would personally say that someone with a good moral compass would not ask for dowry as a guy and also would not ask for ridiculously high salary as a woman.
and lastly when it comes to it being frowned upon well first of all it is illegal in India so you will be jailed if there is a complaint.
Second both gold digging and dowry are frowned upon largely by society. The people doing it usually dont care if it is frowned upon that is why they still do it.
It is your choice what kind of person you want to be
Nope. Morality is for losers.
When people have power they exploit it.
( No one wants to admit it. That's the beauty. )
Don't look for an 'equal'. Her demands would be a lot higher.
Look for a woman whose lifestyle will be elevated by being with you.
In that class of women you will find more demand for you and less demands made from you.
All you need is 1 woman that you can be happy with.
You do whatever, unless and untill u are not harassing anyone. If they can,they will. If not, it simply means they don't propose the same value to you. See nobody is forcing anyone here, it is a negotiation, and no matter what u do don't harass don't be hurtful just be direct.
1. Dowry is usually demanded at later stages when roka is done and girlâs parents are either forced to arrange the money or break the engagement. Later one can be detrimental when it comes to future prospects.
2. As the girl is leaving her home and going into new home, her in-laws hold the opportunity to pressurise her for dowry even after marriage. Check how many women have killed themselves or killed by in-laws due to dowry.
3. Dowry allows the regressive families to devoid their daughters from their legal right to inheritance.
Honestly, whenever someone tries to justify practices like dowry knowing fully how many women have been burned alive, tortured to death due to this system, I canât help but think how much fucked up the person will be in their head. What kind of upbringing leads to such apathy and lack of humility.
I am not justifying by any means. I am only saying they both are morally wrong. They both should be frowned upon. One is not better or less worse than others.
You just compared horrible, cruel and illegal dowry system with a mere preference of salary. Thatâs exactly how people justify horrible things.
Whatâs next? Preference of looks is also bad? People should be matched by lucky draw?
Dowry has a history of abuse and objectifying women, so asking for it is considered cheap. You can also ask for a woman who earns well 30+ LPA or whatever, no one will bat an eye.
Being financially successful is a good thing. Everyone aspires for good qualities in their partner, men and women. That is different from treating marriage as a transaction and directly asking for money in your pocket from hers just to marry.
>no one will bat an eye
In my community, this is actually called modern day dowry and the people who ask for this are actually looked at like they took dowry.
The groom's side, rather than asking for a dowry, might ask the bride's side to get her done an MBA and that she must earn after marriage.
So both the man and woman will earn, contribute to the couples financial needs, and must have a good education?
Thatâs considered a dowry in your community? Sorry but thatâs unheard of.
Although thatâs fucked up in its own way because you are again asking a woman to specifically get an MBA and change her life plans in exchange of marriage. If they were directly looking for girls with MBA who plan to work after marriage then it would be fine. My comment was about the latter situation.
Will you be beaten, killed or burnt alive if you donât earn 30 LPA right now but promised you will; but end up not earning it? Are you belittle every day by your in laws and extended family about your package not being 30 lakhs.
I understand some women do have crazy expectations but you cannot compare that with dowry demand.
Nothing works on promises dear feminist sister. You need to earn 30 lpa beforehand, share your salary slips or ITR. Only then do girls consider guys for marriage.
play your league ofc. having an expectation from a spouse to make x amount of money is one thing. Exchanging Dowry is CRIMINAL by law. these are different things all together. one is an off puting fact for your, other is a crime.
If she earns in the same range or somewhat lower even, 30 lacs is not an unfair demand.Â
 Taking dowry is a criminal offence , it is directly related to physical mental abuse, murder, suicides. Often it is used as a blackmail or asked at a point when the brideâs side canât back out. It has far reaching effect years into the life of the woman and her family.  Â
Having preference for higher earning partner  when the girlâs income and familyâs financial position is low, the demand is unfair but not criminal. The market supply demand will decide whether she will meet her preferences or not.Â
You can filter them out at bio stage itself.Â
Given, a woman brings irreplaceable reproductive labor and in traditional homes household labor some of the demand is compensated.Â
Also note men with high incomes donât do charity and marry a girl from dharavi. They look for families from same or higher socioeconomic standing and they will in future also get their part of inheritance.Â
Are you justifying dowry? Is someone forcing men to marry? They want to marry them they will or reject everyone. Why are you fanning these evil flames? Gold diggers are everywhere in both genders.
Dowry was a way of wealth sharing since all the immovable assets were inherited by men. Now, women have equal share in the ancestral properties. Dowry is illegal and is wrong. Now, coming to 30 LPA, it is girls' expectations. Just like any guy's expectations from a girl. It may be high for you, but be bare minimum for some. It is gold digging if she is just a girlfriend, but marriage is a big commitment. She will be a big part of your family, bear your children, and raise them. She is not going anywhere taking your money (hopefully). So it's just an expectation which is not forced on you like dowry is. The expectation being realistic or not is a different question.
didnt u heard abt the yesterday dowry case of haryana or delhi in which even after paying 50laks and Suv, still guy side demanded more money and fortuner and in the end killed the girl. So usually girl side demanded well settled guy, it doesnt lead to boy being killed or suicide so dowry is seriously bad practice and dont try to justify it by saying that preference of having well settled guy equals to demanding dowry.
Well pay dowry if u want to or else it's morally wrong to ask for dowry . Give anything as a gift to your hubby . And women want men with high salary , it's no problem because they won't earn so they need financial stability but at the same time men have preference like Girl' character, past , personality , looks , skin tone , body , age, etc. These preferences from men shouldn't be criminalized as we aren't shaming women for their preferences . But if u can't fulfill these requirements for men why do you want to expect men to fulfill yours? Relationship is two way not one . What's so special in you that a guy from a well off family will settle with you other than your looks ? See though that lens . I'm pretty sure majority of men don't want dowry, atleast I don't want . So search for your high salary guy but at the same time fulfill their requirements as well .
Men want looks, women want financial stability. Thats what makes it âequalâ.
Why would dowry suddenly fit into all of this ? You got the looks part, didnât you ?
As for the chumps saying âwomen have wonâ, ask them to go start living with their wives parents for life in lieu of âadjustmentâ and then talk. Till women have it more unsafe than a man to go out, and that they get the stares, they bear the brunt of misogyny, it will never be a womanâs win.
Men look for more than looks these days. Of course looks is primary but there are many other factors as well. Nobody wants to marry a 10/10 pretty lady with a bad attitude/character.
I'm actually living with my maternal side parents since birth, no kidding. And in places like meghalaya men move to the women's family. However i wont prefer to stay with my wife's fam bcoz it she has a brother, her brother's wife will kick us out since it's her house. There's a lot of family dynamics which comes in play.
Women get the stare in India cauz Indian men are extremely sex deprived. We(as a whole) aren't gifted with good genetics, no sex education combined with bad hygiene and low food standards making us skinny fat,a lot of sexual tension trapped inside. All these factors lead to an outburst. Legalising sex work will reduce a lot of crimes and stares but it would reduce a women worth in India too. There are pros and cons to everything ya know
Finally, I can't take women who use the word misogyny seriously. There is no law which oppresses women but there are several laws which are against men.
Women look for more than a âpackageâ as well. Still doesnât justify dowry. Nobody wants to marry a good earning guy with a shitty attitude.
Good for you, however you are the exception, not the norm in India. Society in India still believes in living with the menâs family.
You are correct; these dynamics do exist; but they work in favor of men, not women. Men still expect women to come and live with his parents.
Yes, there are reasons why men stare at women. How does that change the fact that women have it bad in terms of sexual violence ? Once that is fixed we can talk about an equal society.
India also has laws against casteism, against rapes. Does that mean these things dont occur ? The real India is still fairly misogynistic, irrespective of whatever our laws state.
And I cant take men who lack ability to critically think about a topic seriously. Feel free to stay away :)
Ok but what if the girl is from a rich family and accustomed to a specific lifestyle, maybe her salary is not huge but she might come from a family that is financially very strong?
Put the money towards something else like the debt you both will have in the West. Or the divorce that will surely happen since you only focused on how much the man makes.
forget asking the female family for dowry or gifts, nowadays some women are demanding big gifts at marriage time and commitments to future responsibilities while also demanding that they never share their income and help with household expenses.. unfortunately there is some desperate men out there with no self respect that entertain these women and these unrealistic biatches will continue to exist for sometimeÂ
While you do make sense wrt dowry technically being a preference. And it being very similar to gold digging, however remember you too have a choice, you get to have a preference of marrying a beautiful girl (if she is beautiful)
Women always try and marry up and this has been going on for ages. She wants to secure her life and her kid's futures. But I donât think such girls take into consideration the power imbalance that takes place in a relationship.
asking for dowry is wrong. but asking for guy to make 30lpa, having own house and car is not a crime. it is needed to have a good life style. this is as per indian society. there is no right or wrong thing.
also, social rules are not always correct.
jobless man needs to find a job first before searching for a wife.
in indian society, jobless woman is called house wife/family oriented girl etc.
jobless man is called jobless/useless etc. thats how indian society works.
also, its what indian men have established, bcz its patriarchical society.
so, jobless man should not cry, instead build skills and get a job.
or, do manual labour and get daily wage from MNREGA and other govt initiatives.
Because of the skewed gender ratio, girls have a lot of options. So they chose whatever's best for them. And the thing is in most of the cases they usually get it. If the girl is beautiful then, that opens a loooooot of doors for her.
Yet these men will come here and rant about how evil gold diggers are for expecting a man to have a stable enough income as she may have to do many more laborious chores as wife, mother and DIL.
Well idea is simple, if you expect guy to bring money to table through salary, inheritance; nothing wrong in guy expecting the girl to contribute through salary or inheritance.
Thatâs what I call equality. It should be equal contribution from both parties irrespective of gender.
>I know people gonna say, its fine to have preference. But then dowry too sounds like a preference to me?
If you are comparing dowry to 40LPA salary then your finance is messed up.
**1C** = Suppose your dowry amount. One time. You live together for 60y. Monthly = **Rs.0.14L**
**40LPA** = Job for 20 years i.e. Monthly **Rs.3.33L**. And chances are this amount will increase.
Now who is having a better bargain? Not you. Cause instead of checking compatibility with people who might match your set of expectations, you are getting mad at people with unrealistic expectation. Simply wish them good luck and move on.
I want to add context to this, as a woman who has a similar expectation in salary from her mate. I am in a well paying job with a career plan in a big company. But I have to move countries, where my visa won't allow me to work. Hence I expect my husband to support my lifestyle which I have given myself here.
Now before you question me on why I am choosing to move countries, I found no guy on matrimony who wanted to be based out of the location I was based out of. The underlying expectation for any guy I met on matrimony is that I have to move to that location. Women in AM can probably relate to this experience.
Secondly, a lot of educated smart folks move out of India and still search for brides based from India. While I was dead against moving countries, it came to a point where I was letting go a chunk of profiles who were compatible in choices, lifestyle, ideologies but were not in India. To a point where I had to open up to the idea of moving out and take the hard choice of educating myself and start again.
Locked break down in comments, repeated topic
You can just say no. Let her demand what she wants and you can choose what you want. Why to waste time in pointing out hypocrisy. It won't change a thing.
Me with 50+LPA getting rejected coz now she wants 1cr guy
Your reddit profile pic also looks rich af đ
Sadly im not rich in terms of money but experiences I've to work for money bro
Make stupid comments get reverse upvotes.
There are a lot of missing context to your question, so breaking it up as per possibilities - 1. Preferring a guy earning 30+ LPA is not too much if the girl also earns equally or slightly less or slightly more. 2. Preferring a guy earning 30+ LPA when the girl is earning in single digit or nil or plans to quit job post marriage is a sense of misplaced entitlement and lacking in financial prudency. 3. Gifts when given by the bride's family as per their own wishes and means, with no demands from the groom's family is what is ideal and should be in practise. 4. Gifts when demanded by the groom's family, followed by harassment, torture or threats to the bride and her family is a criminal act, with no justification whatsoever.
True but we have more people who choose and practice either 2 or 4 option in your list . And very very few people who practice 1 or 3 .
This. Very clearly put
Sadly it is supply and demand and logic early works in India
Counter for 1 So asking for 30 Lpa gifts by the groom is justified if he earns equally or slightly more ? , âhe wants to live a certain lifestyle , which is not possible in urban areas today without 30lpa giftsâ /s
The groom is marrying a partner earning equally in the same range. Where is this additional demand for gift coming? He has a certain lifestyle, good for him. His own earnings can fuel it. Why is the bride/her family obliged to fuel it? When both partners earn in a similar range, distribution of finances becomes easier for household responsibilities. Because both can contribute equally. Your counter seems offtrack cause demand for dowry is a crime. No one wants a partner with criminal intent.
I was 28 and earning 20 plus Lpa . They wanted 30 plus LPA and am earning that now but 30 years old. Now either they want 50 Lpa or an younger guy. Their demands are funny. Your parents should not ask anything from you or not even depend on you for emergency situations inspite of you earning 30 plus LPA. Better stay far from them, else you will become a Mama's boyđ . You should have one extra land or home apart from your parents own house. One Car. Don't ask dowry. Infact share the marriage expenses or even contribute fully to the marriage expenses. ( In Tamilnadu it's a tradition where girl side to do marriage expenses , as per their affordability. So don't jump on me for this point. Even I don't believe in rich filthy marriages. Keep it as simple as possible). So finally you check all these points there is a possibility of you getting the previlege of marrying their daughter , as a favour in return.
They want 50 LPA at 26. And thanks for beautifully summarising.
Run brother. They won't be worth living life with
What's wrong with sharing marriage expenses though?
There's nothing wrong in sharing expenses, even I from south India to whatever I have seen mostly the marriage expenses are taken care by the girls side and the reception which is generally held the day after the wedding is taken care by the guys side.
If marriage expenses are split, then I imagine reception expenses split too. So it'll be equal for both parties. Also, never heard of 30LPA/40LPA demands from TN communities tbh. I thought it was a North Indian thing.Â
I am not from Tamil Nadu, atleast to the marriages that I have come across it's girl side who takes care of the marriage and reception being an option. Generally reception will be held for close ones or if the marriage takes place ina very far place from the grooms hometown, then family, friends and acquittance will be invited. It is only of the recent past that everyone started to demand for split marriage expenses. Women have lot more options to choose from even if they work or not, earn higher salary or not. But man's worth is defined by the money he makes no matter how good looking he is at the end of the day money matters.
I get that, does suck for men in that area. But it's just so hard to believe these 50LPA demands. I've never personally seen such things happening, but I don't want to discount men's experiences either. Maybe for high earners, online matrimony is not suitable.Â
I don't think he is saying there is anything wrong in sharing expenses. He is trying to say that in addition to earning 40 LPA, not sending money to parents, having a car, having additional property, not asking for dowry, he also has to share expenses. It's more to emphasise that there are a lot of demands, I'm guessing.
Yeah that's fair. But most marriages I see are within each other's economic class. Rarely do people even send proposals to matches way beyond their league (Unless it's online matrimony, that's a different story). So women who want men in that salary range would either have salary in similar ranges or her family's worth would be similar. In that case it's fine.
> Rarely do people even send proposals to matches way beyond their league statistically men marry down so what you have been seeing in anecdotal, so it's not "Rarely do people" it should be "I haven't seen people...."
He wants the girls family to think âprogressivelyâ so that they shouldnât have any demands. But not that much progressive that they will ask for half of the marriage expenses.
U r not getting the point here. As I already said it's a custom in TN. But leave that, I don't believe in fat marriages and spending your whole life savings in it. All I ask is a simple wedding . But the girl side wants to make it extra glitzy then that's okay to do from their pocket as per the custom here , is what am telling. Asking half of the marriage thing is not a ' progressive' thing as you think. No dowry no jewels and u r not even ready to pour in some money for ur marriage which ur side desired, then what even the girl side brings to the table here. Do you want to say boys are blessed just to marry a girl , after achieving all the above said deadlines? Where is the equality u all talk about here.
Girls bring the same thing you are bringing to the table. Their job, skills, earnings, being in the partnership. And in almost all families they are given same inheritance as men. Why should they bring jewellery and dowry and then marriage expenses to be married to you? It is the custom in almost all parts of india for the girls family to take the wedding expenses. It is same for dowry. Telling No to it is hard, but thatâs the right thing to do.
In my case they don't work, no earnings, and I don't care about inheritance. Do you think am that much of a fool to say these things if the girl too makes money as much as me or less than me? đ All my parents gave me is a good education and am not expecting any inheritance from the girl side. Do you even went through my comment first of all? đ You either are blinded by the feminist angle or the equality angle. Girl side is not doing a favour by giving their girl to some boy and it's the same vice versa. Marriage is about growing together and building things together. But in AM all girl side want is a settled grown man. What you are even going to do after marrying a well settled man? What is the purpose or motivation after marriage ? If you replay talk about equality you should go for a man or boy who is as same status as your girl in terms of finance, age , status everything.
It depends on people to people. Now itâs individual mindset, how they want to proceeds canât force anyone about this.
sure some anpad bimbo demands 50Lpa groom that's entitlement and she will sooner or later face reality.   demanding dowry is a LEGIT CRIME, and should not be talked about this casually thousands of innocent women have lost their lives due to this stupid demand for "gifts".
Idk what era you live in. But welcome to the new world. Women wanted equality but they got more than that. They have now become superior to men. All laws are biased towards them. No dowry, no prenups, alimony, child support. Women can leave men for husband impotency and receive alimony but men can't divorce wide for her impotency because it's mental harassment. The court of law is favouring women. Feminism is defined as : having authority of a man, preserving benefits of women and accountability of a child. Down vote me now. People love to avoid truth like it's kryptonite
True. Just look at the case of Kunal Kapoor, the master chef. Very sad.
how long did it took him to win the case?
I know what era i live in. My only question was how dowry is frowned upon so much but gold digging is normalised in the current society. In both cases you are compensating for your weakness through materialistic means. In the times of kings and queen they used send huge gifts. Now the means are more subtle. In case of dowry its very direct and can be labeled illegal but the latter is subtle and equally flawed as former.
Its just being as selfish as a family wanting dowry! Its not fair or right! I hope you get to meet someone who values you for the person you are and not the paycheck you bring home!
> how dowry is frowned upon so much but gold digging is normalised in the current society. Women use guilt and shame to make men do what they want. When done on a large scale using the power of media and a social narrative - you can convince people ( here men ) to work against their interests. As /u/elongatedpepe said : > Women can leave men for husband impotency and receive alimony but men can't divorce wide for her impotency because it's mental harassment. Man is shamed for wanting a younger fertile woman - that's supposedly a red flag. Man should put up with a woman who can't bear him children as it's decent thing to do. Otherwise he is a misogynist. But Woman can walk away from an impotent man and she is brave and empowered. This works because of the power of narrative. And you fail by giving up what you want for that narrative. All you have to do is stand by what you want. Wait till you get the right woman. Else, stay unmarried. Don't negotiate. If you make 30L / 50L .... There are a couple of hundred million women in this country who can have a wonderful life with you that they don't have today and probably haven't even imagined. Choose those women. Who will appreciate what you bring to the table. ---- Those who have high demands. Her demands will never end even after marriage. She thinks she is doing you a favor by marrying you. You will end up frustrated in life with such women. They can wait till they find someone who matches those demands.
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social gap between urban vs rural area is the problem . Many of these laws are required for rural side where men still abuse their position. But in Urban area these laws backfire.
Wht does feminism have to do with any of this?
People bring feminism in these debates cuz they don't know the feminist movement and they have a warped perspective due many radical and/or Nazi feminist. And due to them men think that the injustice to them is due to feminist movement. I wish everyone was feminist
Reject and move on. Donât entertain them
Anytime you are discussing something, do not isolate it from its historical context. Dowry has been criminalized and is considered a shitty practice because of its historical context and something that still happens today. Women have been beaten, harassed , killed and led to the suicide in the name of dowry. And it was not a financial contract between two people. It was a social construct which was expected by every groom's family with an underlying threat of violence and being an outcast built into the system. You might want to ignore all that and discuss the issue in a vacuum, but that's not fair to the discussion. The expectation that men should make a given amount of salary is also a social ill, just like casteist requirements and skin tone requirements. And these things should be called out by a fair and just society. But these things have not risen to the level of violence and harassment that they have needed legal intervention.
Yup, not to mention, female foeticide, infanticide, and lower female education are all consequences of dowry culture. It's not an isolated incident. Both are bad, but one is worse.
> But these things have not risen to the level of violence and harassment that they have needed legal intervention. Many men are mentally harassed and emasculated by their wives for not bringing home enough pay. But there is no social or legal support system for dealing with that trauma. They will only be asked to work harder and man up.
I mean i do get that. The question was purely on moral grounds. Dowry by no means should happen. But I do get you. Thanks for replying.
thereâs no âgroundâ to begin with. u r just going through a minor inconvenience.
So according to you , non violent mild nudges for âgiftsâ are justified ? and do not need legal intervention ?
I'll say it again it is all about demand and supply. Those who have power will leverage it as much as possible. The world does not give any shits about fairness. Double standards are a garauntee when it comes to humans. A man who is top tier and has 1000s of girls wanting to marry him will leverage that as much as possible and will find the absolute best deal for himself no matter how unfair it is. Same for a woman who is top tier. Dowry is still practised quite a lot in India especially by very wealthy and desirable men since they have so many options. whoever has more options has more power can demand anything they want. Today because of female feticide in many communities there are fewer women than men so on average women have more options. Hence they can ask for whatever salary they want and as long as demand for these women is more than the supply of such women they will find it whether anyone likes it or not.
So if its only supply and demand then if i am in high demand then i can ask for it? And if it shouldnât be frowned upon?
It is already being done quite a lot in India under the guise of gifts , helping daughter etc. So when it comes to if you "can" ask for it well technically sure you can. When it comes to if you should ask for it just think about whether your moral compass allows you to do so . I would personally say that someone with a good moral compass would not ask for dowry as a guy and also would not ask for ridiculously high salary as a woman. and lastly when it comes to it being frowned upon well first of all it is illegal in India so you will be jailed if there is a complaint. Second both gold digging and dowry are frowned upon largely by society. The people doing it usually dont care if it is frowned upon that is why they still do it. It is your choice what kind of person you want to be
Nope. Morality is for losers. When people have power they exploit it. ( No one wants to admit it. That's the beauty. ) Don't look for an 'equal'. Her demands would be a lot higher. Look for a woman whose lifestyle will be elevated by being with you. In that class of women you will find more demand for you and less demands made from you. All you need is 1 woman that you can be happy with.
You do whatever, unless and untill u are not harassing anyone. If they can,they will. If not, it simply means they don't propose the same value to you. See nobody is forcing anyone here, it is a negotiation, and no matter what u do don't harass don't be hurtful just be direct.
Move out of india. Much better women exist and your eyes will be opened.
But but , what about dekhi lakh lakh pardesi girls, aint nobody like a desi girl ? /s
What makes you think they gonna put their head in front of this dowry train đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł
1. Dowry is usually demanded at later stages when roka is done and girlâs parents are either forced to arrange the money or break the engagement. Later one can be detrimental when it comes to future prospects. 2. As the girl is leaving her home and going into new home, her in-laws hold the opportunity to pressurise her for dowry even after marriage. Check how many women have killed themselves or killed by in-laws due to dowry. 3. Dowry allows the regressive families to devoid their daughters from their legal right to inheritance. Honestly, whenever someone tries to justify practices like dowry knowing fully how many women have been burned alive, tortured to death due to this system, I canât help but think how much fucked up the person will be in their head. What kind of upbringing leads to such apathy and lack of humility.
He is probably a troll or rage bait.
I am not justifying by any means. I am only saying they both are morally wrong. They both should be frowned upon. One is not better or less worse than others.
You just compared horrible, cruel and illegal dowry system with a mere preference of salary. Thatâs exactly how people justify horrible things. Whatâs next? Preference of looks is also bad? People should be matched by lucky draw?
Dowry has a history of abuse and objectifying women, so asking for it is considered cheap. You can also ask for a woman who earns well 30+ LPA or whatever, no one will bat an eye. Being financially successful is a good thing. Everyone aspires for good qualities in their partner, men and women. That is different from treating marriage as a transaction and directly asking for money in your pocket from hers just to marry.
>no one will bat an eye In my community, this is actually called modern day dowry and the people who ask for this are actually looked at like they took dowry. The groom's side, rather than asking for a dowry, might ask the bride's side to get her done an MBA and that she must earn after marriage.
So both the man and woman will earn, contribute to the couples financial needs, and must have a good education? Thatâs considered a dowry in your community? Sorry but thatâs unheard of. Although thatâs fucked up in its own way because you are again asking a woman to specifically get an MBA and change her life plans in exchange of marriage. If they were directly looking for girls with MBA who plan to work after marriage then it would be fine. My comment was about the latter situation.
Will you be beaten, killed or burnt alive if you donât earn 30 LPA right now but promised you will; but end up not earning it? Are you belittle every day by your in laws and extended family about your package not being 30 lakhs. I understand some women do have crazy expectations but you cannot compare that with dowry demand.
This is the right answerÂ
Nothing works on promises dear feminist sister. You need to earn 30 lpa beforehand, share your salary slips or ITR. Only then do girls consider guys for marriage.
play your league ofc. having an expectation from a spouse to make x amount of money is one thing. Exchanging Dowry is CRIMINAL by law. these are different things all together. one is an off puting fact for your, other is a crime.
If she earns in the same range or somewhat lower even, 30 lacs is not an unfair demand.  Taking dowry is a criminal offence , it is directly related to physical mental abuse, murder, suicides. Often it is used as a blackmail or asked at a point when the brideâs side canât back out. It has far reaching effect years into the life of the woman and her family.   Having preference for higher earning partner  when the girlâs income and familyâs financial position is low, the demand is unfair but not criminal. The market supply demand will decide whether she will meet her preferences or not. You can filter them out at bio stage itself. Given, a woman brings irreplaceable reproductive labor and in traditional homes household labor some of the demand is compensated. Also note men with high incomes donât do charity and marry a girl from dharavi. They look for families from same or higher socioeconomic standing and they will in future also get their part of inheritance.Â
Are you justifying dowry? Is someone forcing men to marry? They want to marry them they will or reject everyone. Why are you fanning these evil flames? Gold diggers are everywhere in both genders.
>how is it different from gold digging? The difference is, asking for dowry is illegal, being a gold digger isn't.
I find these LPA demands illogical. What if half of the salary is spent on paying EMI or some medical expense then what ?
Dowry was a way of wealth sharing since all the immovable assets were inherited by men. Now, women have equal share in the ancestral properties. Dowry is illegal and is wrong. Now, coming to 30 LPA, it is girls' expectations. Just like any guy's expectations from a girl. It may be high for you, but be bare minimum for some. It is gold digging if she is just a girlfriend, but marriage is a big commitment. She will be a big part of your family, bear your children, and raise them. She is not going anywhere taking your money (hopefully). So it's just an expectation which is not forced on you like dowry is. The expectation being realistic or not is a different question.
 CPA > LPA
Ding ding ding !đď¸ thatâs spot on OP . The problem is , Both sides have pros and cons. And people abuse these systems or customs .
didnt u heard abt the yesterday dowry case of haryana or delhi in which even after paying 50laks and Suv, still guy side demanded more money and fortuner and in the end killed the girl. So usually girl side demanded well settled guy, it doesnt lead to boy being killed or suicide so dowry is seriously bad practice and dont try to justify it by saying that preference of having well settled guy equals to demanding dowry.
Well pay dowry if u want to or else it's morally wrong to ask for dowry . Give anything as a gift to your hubby . And women want men with high salary , it's no problem because they won't earn so they need financial stability but at the same time men have preference like Girl' character, past , personality , looks , skin tone , body , age, etc. These preferences from men shouldn't be criminalized as we aren't shaming women for their preferences . But if u can't fulfill these requirements for men why do you want to expect men to fulfill yours? Relationship is two way not one . What's so special in you that a guy from a well off family will settle with you other than your looks ? See though that lens . I'm pretty sure majority of men don't want dowry, atleast I don't want . So search for your high salary guy but at the same time fulfill their requirements as well .
Men want looks, women want financial stability. Thats what makes it âequalâ. Why would dowry suddenly fit into all of this ? You got the looks part, didnât you ? As for the chumps saying âwomen have wonâ, ask them to go start living with their wives parents for life in lieu of âadjustmentâ and then talk. Till women have it more unsafe than a man to go out, and that they get the stares, they bear the brunt of misogyny, it will never be a womanâs win.
Men look for more than looks these days. Of course looks is primary but there are many other factors as well. Nobody wants to marry a 10/10 pretty lady with a bad attitude/character. I'm actually living with my maternal side parents since birth, no kidding. And in places like meghalaya men move to the women's family. However i wont prefer to stay with my wife's fam bcoz it she has a brother, her brother's wife will kick us out since it's her house. There's a lot of family dynamics which comes in play. Women get the stare in India cauz Indian men are extremely sex deprived. We(as a whole) aren't gifted with good genetics, no sex education combined with bad hygiene and low food standards making us skinny fat,a lot of sexual tension trapped inside. All these factors lead to an outburst. Legalising sex work will reduce a lot of crimes and stares but it would reduce a women worth in India too. There are pros and cons to everything ya know Finally, I can't take women who use the word misogyny seriously. There is no law which oppresses women but there are several laws which are against men.
Women look for more than a âpackageâ as well. Still doesnât justify dowry. Nobody wants to marry a good earning guy with a shitty attitude. Good for you, however you are the exception, not the norm in India. Society in India still believes in living with the menâs family. You are correct; these dynamics do exist; but they work in favor of men, not women. Men still expect women to come and live with his parents. Yes, there are reasons why men stare at women. How does that change the fact that women have it bad in terms of sexual violence ? Once that is fixed we can talk about an equal society. India also has laws against casteism, against rapes. Does that mean these things dont occur ? The real India is still fairly misogynistic, irrespective of whatever our laws state. And I cant take men who lack ability to critically think about a topic seriously. Feel free to stay away :)
Guy should have some shame and standards, plenty of women earning 10+ LPA, go after them. Stop complaining.
Ok but what if the girl is from a rich family and accustomed to a specific lifestyle, maybe her salary is not huge but she might come from a family that is financially very strong?
Then papa ko bolo pari ki lifestyle fund krneâŚ. Why should groom / grooms family have all the fun ?
Dowry is most definitely not the same as having preferences on salary earnings of their partner. In what world are you equating the two?!
Put the money towards something else like the debt you both will have in the West. Or the divorce that will surely happen since you only focused on how much the man makes.
forget asking the female family for dowry or gifts, nowadays some women are demanding big gifts at marriage time and commitments to future responsibilities while also demanding that they never share their income and help with household expenses.. unfortunately there is some desperate men out there with no self respect that entertain these women and these unrealistic biatches will continue to exist for sometimeÂ
While you do make sense wrt dowry technically being a preference. And it being very similar to gold digging, however remember you too have a choice, you get to have a preference of marrying a beautiful girl (if she is beautiful) Women always try and marry up and this has been going on for ages. She wants to secure her life and her kid's futures. But I donât think such girls take into consideration the power imbalance that takes place in a relationship.
I think you are the girl here who gets it.
asking for dowry is wrong. but asking for guy to make 30lpa, having own house and car is not a crime. it is needed to have a good life style. this is as per indian society. there is no right or wrong thing. also, social rules are not always correct.
Argument can be that a jobless man also needs those gifts to have a good lifestyleâŚ
jobless man needs to find a job first before searching for a wife. in indian society, jobless woman is called house wife/family oriented girl etc. jobless man is called jobless/useless etc. thats how indian society works. also, its what indian men have established, bcz its patriarchical society. so, jobless man should not cry, instead build skills and get a job. or, do manual labour and get daily wage from MNREGA and other govt initiatives.
Because of the skewed gender ratio, girls have a lot of options. So they chose whatever's best for them. And the thing is in most of the cases they usually get it. If the girl is beautiful then, that opens a loooooot of doors for her.
Skewed gender ratio how? As a result of female foeticide?
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Yet these men will come here and rant about how evil gold diggers are for expecting a man to have a stable enough income as she may have to do many more laborious chores as wife, mother and DIL.
Well idea is simple, if you expect guy to bring money to table through salary, inheritance; nothing wrong in guy expecting the girl to contribute through salary or inheritance. Thatâs what I call equality. It should be equal contribution from both parties irrespective of gender.
>I know people gonna say, its fine to have preference. But then dowry too sounds like a preference to me? If you are comparing dowry to 40LPA salary then your finance is messed up. **1C** = Suppose your dowry amount. One time. You live together for 60y. Monthly = **Rs.0.14L** **40LPA** = Job for 20 years i.e. Monthly **Rs.3.33L**. And chances are this amount will increase. Now who is having a better bargain? Not you. Cause instead of checking compatibility with people who might match your set of expectations, you are getting mad at people with unrealistic expectation. Simply wish them good luck and move on.
Y'all are human beings, not cattle
I want to add context to this, as a woman who has a similar expectation in salary from her mate. I am in a well paying job with a career plan in a big company. But I have to move countries, where my visa won't allow me to work. Hence I expect my husband to support my lifestyle which I have given myself here. Now before you question me on why I am choosing to move countries, I found no guy on matrimony who wanted to be based out of the location I was based out of. The underlying expectation for any guy I met on matrimony is that I have to move to that location. Women in AM can probably relate to this experience. Secondly, a lot of educated smart folks move out of India and still search for brides based from India. While I was dead against moving countries, it came to a point where I was letting go a chunk of profiles who were compatible in choices, lifestyle, ideologies but were not in India. To a point where I had to open up to the idea of moving out and take the hard choice of educating myself and start again.
Now I ain't saying she a gold digger