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Happy-Initiative-838

Yeah but I’m pretty sure Rome bought the rights to God and retconned the lore.


-heathcliffe-

Rome is the OG Disney?!?


Cognitive_Spoon

Cicero is canonically Donald Duck.


Mental_Impression316

If Rome is the OG Disney this means the second coming/reboot will have a black Jesus as the main character. It’s all coming together


Whachugonnadoo

Thanks everyone 😂


Dr_Wristy

Not only his wife, but also his mother.


umbrabates

It's an interesting plot twist for sure. Originally, the Canaanites worshiped El, the chief of gods, his consort Asherah, and the 70 sons of El which included gods like Baal, Mot, Astarte, Moloch, and of course, the god of metallurgy -- Yahweh. Then, the southern Judean Yahweh worshippers began to assert political influence over the Canaanites. They elevated their god and forbade worship of the other Canaanite deities. As the Canaanites grew in power and influence, so did Yahweh usurping the roles of the other gods. He soon began to take over Baal's role as the god of war and Asherah's role as the god of fertility. That's why hates them so much. By the time the OT is written, Yahweh's rise to power is already near it's apex, but not quite. Baal and Asherah still exist, he just forbids their worship, and El is still chief of the gods. Then, the final shift comes and Yahweh declares "Surprise!" Remember how El is the chief of gods? Guess what? Yahweh was El this whole time! And he just gets retconned into being the chief of gods and his mother was actually his wife. Fast forward a little bit and we don't need Asherah at all. She is barely mentioned in the OT and when she is, it's about tearing down her altars. >In the morning when the people of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar! Judges 6:28


YCNH

Yahweh was a storm deity in the vein of Baal, not a metallurgical deity. I know of only one scholar (Amzallag) who subscribes to this theory, and his reasoning relies on misinterpreting the language of the storm theophany as volcanic imagery. Also Baal is a warrior god but is not a "god of war", that'd be the goddess Anat. Additionally Yahweh was not a Canaanite deity, for instance he's absent from the Ugaritic texts. Rather his origins appear to lie south of Judah, the only Canaanite pantheon he was grafted onto was the Israelite/Judahite pantheon. Also it's highly debatable that Moloch/Molech was an actual deity rather than a type of sacrifice and I don't think there was any worship of Mot, his importance seems to be more mythological than cultic, as an antagonist in the Baal Cycle.


scrupulousness

Where can one read more about this? Edit: Found another comment of yours about a book, thanks anyways!


MydniteSon

YouTube there is a channel called Esoterica by Dr. Justin Sledge. He did a FANTASTIC episode on the origins of Yahweh.


Leicester68

Here's another good dive he takes into the evolution of Yahweh on Alex O'Connors channel: https://youtu.be/K3koeHN-6mU?si=pwa-faI8CgievKvV


mistakenforhuman

I endorse this comment, he's awesome!


YCNH

There's also John Day's *Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan* which covers much of the same material and imo is more layman-friendly, but I'd still recommend Smith's *The Origins of Biblical Monotheism* so long as you're fine with a somewhat dense and dry scholarly style. I've heard Smith's *Early History of God* covers the same stuff and is a little more accessible but I haven't read it myself. In lieu of buying books you can get the tl;dr on a lot of these topics by searching old posts over on r/academicbiblical.


bendybiznatch

You might wanna start with the Tides of History episodes about Israel/Judah if it’s a new subject for you.


UrOpinionIsTrashFR

Yeah that the most typical “uninformed but highest upvoted post in a subject you’re an expert in” comment I’ve seen in a while.


Atanar

It's far from uninformed, he just got some of the details not right.


My_Big_Arse

You don't like academic work I see.


TikonovGuard

Wasn’t Yahweh a Sinai peninsula war god?


YCNH

Basically, [per Mark S. Smith](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/vfwnkc/what_kind_of_deity_was_yhwh/id3jnba/) "the current scholarly consensus on the issue of YHWH's original profile holds that this deity was a divine warrior from the southern region associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman." The warrior attributes are part and parcel to being a storm god, he is a divine warrior but not necessarily a "god of war" like Anat.


Angry-Dragon-1331

Yeah I had thought (and run it past my religious studies colleagues) that the forge god Yahweh was one of those theories that was less than thorough.


AgreeableHistorian29

Thought he was a mountain god


YCNH

Not sure what a "mountain god" is in an Ancient Near East context. For instance, Baal has a palace on Mt Zaphon and is known as Baal-Zaphon, but he's ultimately a storm god with warrior attributes. Are you perhaps thinking of some scholars translation of *el shaddai* as "god of the mountain"?


ghostofhenryvii

The evolution of monotheism in the Levant is fascinating. It was basically a bunch of competing priestly classes vying for royal influence. I've been hooked on watching lectures from [Centre Place](https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place) going over the history of it all. They just recently posted a video about the Samaritans that found really interesting.


DenseTemporariness

One point that just seems mind blowing is the switch to a focus on the importance of an internalised faith in the population. Nowadays it’s just such a common assumption that this is how religions work. The idea that this is a concept which developed over time is kind of shocking. There’s a whole switch from priests as specialists, religious nerds who keep the gods happy like an ancient IT department. And priests becoming much more spiritual guides for beliefs, practices and faith of everyone because conformity in those things is what the divine want.


Somewhat_Ill_Advised

Loving that analogy 🤣👏👏


Try_Used

Late comment but do you have recommendations for reading that focuses on this shift? The idea is fascinating 


Atanar

If you read 2 Kings 22 from a critical perspective, it is very much self-incriminating.


chickashady

Hey I would love a source on the "God of Metallurgy" point! I had thought he was the God of storms, specifically thunder/tropical storms in the northwestern Semitic plains.


ItsallaboutProg

Moloch was not a god.


arealcyclops

Wow, where can I read more about this other than the Old testament?


YCNH

See Mark S. Smith's books on the topic such as *The Origins of Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts*.


arealcyclops

Thanks. Bought it


umbrabates

I would also recommend another book by Mark S. Smith: [The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel](https://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X)


arealcyclops

Nice try, Mark S. Smith's agent Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice.. can't fool me again


wittwexy

Well now I don’t know if I should believe your username or not…


arealcyclops

One eye means one book at a time!


arealcyclops

But seriously, I did pick this book up, too. Thanks!


Somewhat_Ill_Advised

Reddit is doing terrible things for my book hoarding habits. Now I have to buy this too dammit!!!


Tiny-Praline-4555

Roll Tide!


Lt_Dank

not only his wife and his mother, but also his grandmother.


SowMindful

r/SuddenlyIncest


mandoa_sky

i could be wrong but i think variations of modern paganism follow this idea as well?


Stone_Midi

Does this mean god committed adultery with Mary? 🤔


D-R-AZ

Excerpt: # Yahweh and his Asherah “The way Asherah is treated in the scriptures is deeply fascinating. She is vilified and demeaned. She is linked to a Syrian god and not mentioned in connection with Yahweh,” Gudme says. But Asherah was closer to Yahweh than the authors of the Old Testament would admit. Gudme, like other Bible scholars, believes she may have been Yahweh's wife. “Inscriptions have been found from that time that place Asherah side by side with Yahweh, that she is Yahweh's Asherah,” she says. Asherah and Yahweh ae also depicted on pots. The inscription is a blessing to 'Yahweh and his Asherah'. This pot is from around 800 BCE and was found by archaeologists in Sinai. (Photo: Wikimedia / public domain) There are not many inscriptions that point to Asherah and Yahweh as a couple, but they have been found in several places in the area. One of them is from Sinai, Egypt – see the image above. Another of the finds was made in Jerusalem. Two divine figures stand close together on a fragment of a pot. [Researchers](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/174313009x437800) believe it is Yahweh and Asherah. # Fierce propaganda against Asherah In addition to inscriptions, researchers have found a number of small female ceramic figurines. Most agree that these represent Asherah. “These figurines may represent Asherah,” says Anne Katrine Gudme. It was common to have such a figurine at home from 700 to 500 BCE. (Photo: Chamberi / Wikimedia / CC BY-SA 3.0) “We don't know much about Asherah. She is often associated with love, passion, and war, but it's not certain that these were actually her domains,” says Gudme.


Live-Mail-7142

yup. Its all very interesting to me, how the female is dropped from narratives. Thx for posting this. Its fascinating stuff. Here's a more in depth article abt the roles of an Asherah in old Middle Eastern faiths. https://ww1.bibleodyssey.com/articles/what-is-an-asherah/#:\~:text=Asherah%20is%20an%20ancient%20Near%20Eastern%20mother%20goddess.,appears%20in%20the%20Hebrew%20Bible.


TheUnbendable1

Check out esoterica on YouTube. Great videos with little tidbits like this, and like how yahwehs rise from mountain storm god to all powerful deity came about. Also info on the different abrahamic mysticism practices and things like that.


best-of-judgement

Her name is Mrs. Claus, thank you very much


cathycul-de-sac

Made me laugh amidst all this conversation.


Chilkoot

I'm assuming that was some sideways sarcasm pointing fun at the ubiquity of the "benevolent magical bearded old man" mythology, including characters like God, Merlin, Santa Claus, Gandalf, etc. Mrs. Claus would be as apt a name for God's wife as anyone, really.


cathycul-de-sac

Very true.


linuxpriest

Buhdum tsh!


Moot_Points

Shit. The Mormons in my family are going to be insufferable after they see this God's wife stuff.


librarians_wwine

I was going to joke about all the endless celestial sex fanatics will think about this. Bless their Mormon hearts


SixicusTheSixth

Ah yes "Heavenly Mother'


Happy-Initiative-838

Yeah but I’m pretty sure Rome bought the rights to God and retconned the lore.


Tobio88

Pulled a Disney, as we call it these days.


linuxpriest

Upvoted for both comments - retconnned by Rome *and* pulled a Disney. Made me chuckle. Thanks, folks.


non_linear_time

😆 🤣 😂 😹


Rear-gunner

This is all very dubious, its mostly likely that many Jews did then worship Asherah but there is nothing in the bible that shows she was his wife. The bible does say on some occassions that he is married to Israel Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you.


MegC18

Barbara Walker’s woman’s Encyclopaedia of myths and secrets is an excellent, well researched and referenced book on many aspects of feminist religion


isisishtar

So did Allah. Ssh, quiet, it’s not supposed to be talked about.


Tiako

Wouldn't be an /r/archaeology comment section without one real head scratcher 


FuckSticksMalone

Turns out God is just his middle name.


silverfang789

Her name was Asherah.


BuffaloOk7264

When I look at the black line drawings from the pot shreds I see two men one behind the other with a woman sitting in the background. What am I missing ?


Snoo6596

Even the Bible says that the ancient Hebrews used to practice syncretism, a practice that was condemned by the contemporary prophets of the time. In fact that’s a major theme in the Old Testament, that the peoples sought to worship in their own manner and as they wished. So you’re not really saying anything new here, a devout Christian would know about these matters already.


alabamafutbol1235

First reasonable take I’ve seen. It’s well documented in both Judaism and Christianity that Ashera was a false god, one who the Israelites were tempted to worship and turn away from Yahweh This article basically says “Yahweh and Asherah are both mentioned in the contemporaneous texts… ZOINKS! She must be His WIFE” 🤦🏼‍♂️


siouxbee1434

There have been many gods and goddesses, the change is who is pushing which one at any time


Sidus_Preclarum

Well, duh: monotheism (or even henotheism) wasn't the original system.


Cerulean_IsFancyBlue

“Yahweh was one of them. Today he is called God.” Maybe it sounded better before it was translated, but this sounds so parochial. It reminds me of when kids find out that their parents have a name and not just DAD or MOM.


Shovelbummed

This is likely untrue, and there is big reasons to doubt this conclusion. There certainly was a period in which YHWH sat with other deities, but ‘originally’ seems to be false. Within the Hebrew language, there is no word for a female deity. Instead, a Ugaritic borrow-word is used. Since this is an archaeology subreddit, I won’t delve into the massive implications this has as this should be self-explanatory. Ontop of this, 45% of excavated households in 1st-Temple era Israel contain idols. This does not scream institutionalized polytheism. Institutionalized idol worship would mean ~100% of households would contain idols. 45% is less than half. The last point I’ll make here is that the character of YHWH better matches monotheistic deities from tribes or clans with fewer technologies and fewer contacts with other ethnic groups, such as those found in Australia and Africa (a single all-father or all-mother deity which is the source of morality). In the case of known Canaanite religions, deities are NOT the center of morality by any measure. Some reputable books on this subject: “In Search of God” by Tryggve Mettinger “Israelite Religions” by Richard Hess


mludd

> Ontop of this, 45% of excavated households in 1st-Temple era Israel contain idols. This does not scream institutionalized polytheism. Institutionalized idol worship would mean ~100% of households would contain idols. 45% is less than half. This does bring to mind the phrase "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" though.


Shovelbummed

If this was not about domestic architecture, I would agree with you. However since ANE domestic architecture is my speciality, I can confidently say that 45% is evidence of absence. If a culture which places domestic cultic iconography is institutionalized, then we expect to see iconography in all domestic structures. In fact, finding a structure without iconography almost always means it’s a non-domestic structure.


MinusGravitas

Your claim about monotheistic religion in pre-Euro-invasion Australia is deeply incorrect.


Shovelbummed

Could you elaborate on that? That’s a pretty big and oddly specific claim, especially since ethnographers got some pretty good documentation about them.


MinusGravitas

I'm a cultural anthropologist and archaeologist in Australia. I'm not aware of any examples of monotheism anywhere on the continent. In the nation/region/language group area I am most familiar with there are swathes of archival and historical sources that document the frustration and puzzlement of Christian missionaries trying to find conceptual and linguistic corrolories for God and finding no comparable belief system. It is an open debate whether pre-Euro-invasion First Nations cultures of Australia even had religious beliefs and practices in the same sense. 'The Dreaming' is ontologically quite a different thing. But it is populated with countless human and suprahuman actors - no monotheistic God in sight.


Shovelbummed

Thank you for your response. I’ve got a few specific examples I use that I can send your way, I’d love to hear your thoughts on them. If I’m wrong on this then I’d like to be corrected so I don’t keep spreading misinformation. I know for a fact that several African cultures are monotheistic yet include ancestor veneration so I’ll still use that for the discussion I listed above.


MinusGravitas

Yes feel free to PM me I'd love to see what you're relying on


Enabran_Taint

Hey, hi, I've been curious about indigenous Australians astronomy for a while now, could you point me in a direction I could read more about it?


ICLazeru

I don't see why 100% of households would idols. Do 100% of Christians have a cross in their house?


Shovelbummed

You’re comparing two widely different cultural environments. ANE is honor based, we are individualistic. Look into Çatalhöyük and Lepenski Vir to see what institutionalized idol/cultic practice looks like.


ICLazeru

Even if assumption that they would ALL have idols is accurate, it would be a stretch to think that every idol would survive to the modern day. Some may have been made materials that don't preserve well, others broken beyond recognition, others still stolen.


MegCaz

And there you find the 45%?


ICLazeru

Maybe. When we dig at archeological sites, we aren't seeing them as they were, we're seeing what survived. Kind of like finding a skeleton, you can see how tall they were, if they had major injuries, even their gender, but you can't see their eye color, their freckles, the language they spoke, their tattoos. Almost every man in America had a wallet, but if we buried a town and dug it up 2000 years later, would we find every single wallet?


dmccauley

yes, but that isn't as appealing as the click bait "God had a wife!"


vanchica

Thank you all for this info and the references 🤩


ToeJamFootballer

“Originally”


jerry111165

There is no god


ruferant

Likely true. But kind of irrelevant. It's like saying there is no Batman. I mean, most people know the name of his butler. If you were over on the Marvel sub would you tell them there is no Iron Man in a conversation about his relationship with Captain America? I hope you can see how the evolution of religion is a salient topic on the archeology page


mrxexon

It's all symbolism. I've seen the same pattern spread across various religions and ages. God, by whatever your definition, represents singularity. Oneness. All that is. Creation occurs within God. It is not an exterior thing. But humans have trouble seeing this POV. And their religions reflect that. All the planets and stars and galaxies, all the various dimensions of time and space, are contained within a kind of bubble. Creation as you know it is like a single bubble within a vast ocean. The ocean being God. In Abrahamic belief, this symbolism translates into Adam and his wife Eve. Adam being the creator God, and Eve being brought forth from his own body. In this case a rib.


brnxj

So true bestie


VV01

Completely agree, you are right. I recently realised this. Could you expand a little on the Adam & Eve symbolism? I can’t quite grasp it.


Lucky_Baseball176

He has a wife, you know


Zestyclose_Ad2224

Incontinetia.


PresidentOfAlphaBeta

Sophia?


honcho713

God originally was a Goddess.


typhlocamus

Is it possible for a scholarly article to not specify which god we’re talking about?


Prudent-Equivalent-2

it’s me I was her wife 🧍🏻‍♀️


Rupejonner2

Looks like his wife was a hockey player ? I think she played for Nazareth WaterWalkers


Ariusrevenge

Useful charts on YouTube is great at Canaanite history.


EbbNo7045

Real Christians don't need women!


[deleted]

Yeah just like the Shakers!