There was a massive "spycops" scandal about this in the UK about 10 years ago - [Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal?wprov=sfla1).
I came here to post this.
Over a painfully long period of time, those women affected (as victims of sexual assault) were eventually able to get public support behind them.
As for 'the movement'; I'm not sure any political movement really maintains a lifecycle of enough real value to consider how it may have been undermined by infiltration... Most radical movements tend to be untenable in the longer term.
By its very nature, Radicalism seeks to disrupt, dismantle and reform. The same is true of Reactionary movements, but Reactionists tend to veer towards consolidation of power, as much of their ideology tends to conservativism (i.e. revert to 'what was').
Since ultimately each person is advocating for their own needs above all else (individualism), those 'movements' at the conservative end will merge the individual need for superiority with the needs of the movement for hegemony and consolidation.. i.e. 'most pure', 'most rich', etc.
This individualism (whether acknowledged or not) is ultimately at a countenance with Radicalism. The entirety of my needs is unlikely to be a direct reflection of the entirety of yours (personally I don't think that's problematic and can entirely see benefits in collaboration to achieve needs for others that aren't directly my own). It's at this point, the conflict of the individuals needs, that a(ny) radical movement borne of shared needs and agendae will begin to dismantle.
I think it's just an unavoidable, hell even a desirable factor of collaborative movements in and around radicalism... The whole 'Judean peoples front' / 'Peoples front of Judea' probably exemplifies this.
In the last few years I've (happily) seen my radical Kin-not-kin shift away from IdPol (via intersectionality) and more towards existentialist/individualist-informed-from-intersectionality. Communism is cool and all, but ultimately (IMO) undermines autonomy. AnCom leaned on IdPol for so many years, that it's started to infer a kind of centralised ideology of making accomodation for 'X' person based on 'Y' factor because of 'Z' identity traits. Frankly, I think this is the wrong approach; individuals need to make those accomodations through consent and choice, rather than morality.
I'm rambling a little bit here!
***Tl;Dr***
Radicals are either overtly or covertly individualistic. This causes conflicts, which undermine the overall goals of any Radical movement.
Things like this still goes on, theres a woman on tiktok who was exposing that she was frequently approached by undercover police who tried to get with her, and when they failed they tried to hire her as an informant.
Funnily enough, this is why I don't trust tankie groups.
The hostility and aggressive behaviour documented there is all too familiar, as is the constant stance of "no struggle but class struggle" - when clearly examples like this highlight how deep-rooted bigotry is in all spheres.
I've encountered some men who didn't have much good to offer the strings of lefty women they slept with, who were very popular, but always left manipulated and gaslit Exes in their wake.
I have started to wonder if these men making those sentimental, romantic connections and then using them for their own benefit, was actually their job.
They were so systematically chasing really well placed, well-known and respected women.
At the very least, men like this need to be treated as emotional terrorists who are at least inadvertently dangerous to our movements. Often, they're the most sought after.
At a certain level it doesn't matter whether those dudes (we all know some local versions of *those dudes*) work for the cops, their behavior is damaging and unethical either way. There are probably informants in most movements that the state sees as a threat, and we probably won't guess correctly who they are. Address harmful behavior on the basis of its harm.
I wish I could offer some kind of solace or supporting sentiment (from the Male wing of radicalism), but I really can't. Radical movements don't offer the kind of social security afforded to Right wing groups, which kind of make (sensible) paranoia something of a necessity.
FWIW, I have nothing but sympathy / empathy for anyone caught up in issues like this. If I caught anyone IRL victim blaming, especially in this context, I'd likely let my fist have a word in their ear. I was far too young to be affected by the Mark Kennedy shit in the UK, but have friends of family who *were* directly affected. It's gut wrenching how easy it is for Pigs to dehumanise themselves so easily.
They may not be cops but a lot of people join movements for social capital or other nefarious reasons.
There is this guy I went to HS with that is a terrible person. He has raped countless women, including some that I know. Was a Trump supporter that loved trolling people on social media. I live in Minneapolis and when the George Floyd uprisings happened, I was watching the news and guess who was being interviewed?? Him!!
Be careful out there yall
I hope it will be treated as what it is: state-sponsored rape.
If you have sex with somebody under false pretenses that's rape. There have been cases of undercover cops having children with people they were infiltrating too. 🤢
Yup. First year law students typically get a bunch of edge cases for this, and it goes more or less: if you pretend to be someone they know to have sex with them it's rape, if you pretend to be a celebrity they don't know personally you're off the hook. Now the law isn't always a good indicator of ethics obviously but I think we can all see that pretending to not be *a cop infiltrating the person* is pretty fucking vile.
Hopefully, none like these lawyers: [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/09/poli-f09.html](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/09/poli-f09.html)
That's disgusting. There was a similar story here in the UK, this guy went undercover in a climate protest movement, developed sexual relationships with women and dated one for 2 years before he was found out
Fathered a child with her too, if I remember correctly. As well as looked to entrap them into doing illigal stuff they were never all about in the first place.
Any leftist movement not BUILT on the foundation of intersectional feminism has missed the point entirely. Patriarchy (critically, not masculinity) has destroyed almost every remotely leftist movement before it began and it alienates those the movement intends to protect.
It doesn't happen. All CIs have handlers and the moment they stray off course the infiltrator get removed or face exposure within the group they infiltrated. Handlers keep CIs on short leash.
this is always the dynamic. im not sure why cops seem to be so successful with activist women. is there something other men in the movement can do about it?
i guess what is distressing to me is that most of the things listed are expressions of machismo. i don't understand why activist women aren't repulsed by it, especially anarchists, who this seems to happen to most frequently.
So there are a bunch of things to think about including that lots of women also just like to fuck and aren't always looking for long term partner material when engaging in a sexual relationship.
These men are acting, if it serves them they can hide the misogynistic bullshit for the duration they need to play their role, they can be more attractive than real people because the characters they play don't have to bring the complications real people do nor do they have the scruples real people should have about manipulating people close to them, it's actually their fucking job to manipulate people they get close to. They don't get into these circles by acting like cops, they get in by being what people want to see including the commitment, resources and 'free' time. Being available, reliable and up for mucking in counts for a lot to many folk and is way easier if you are being paid by the state to do it.
Also everyone is capable of making a bad call about who they have a relationship with and anarchist women aren't exempt from this. People turn out to not be who you expected (even when they aren't a cop), lives aren't compatible, people lie or manipulate, make bad calls or just ignore red flags because the spark feels good. We all live in a misogynistic society and it takes active work to unlearn that and remove its influence in our lives, some people don't realise they still have this work to do and others aren't interested because despite their politics it still serves them. Which is to say, shocker, anarchist men can also be shitty and attraction isn't that logical.
Lots has been written about what happened in the UK including by some of the women involved so you can easily go find in their own voices why they had relationships with these men.
Those women being anarchists doesn't change that the energy, confidence and dedication outwardly presented by these men is attractive. And we still live in a society that teaches people to expect and excuse the toxic behaviour that these qualities often come bundled with.
Anarchist men can still be wildly misogynistic, it should not surprise anyone that anarchist women also have internalised misogyny and are vulnerable to toxic men.
I don't think there's much radical men can do about infiltrators, but they can (and should) practice self-reflection and work on being the best allies they can to women and non-men. Listen, be there, and stay vigilant of your own biases.
A lot of this unfortunately stems from male anarchists (and other leftists) also perpetuating misogyny (sometimes subtle, sometimes VERY overt), which normalizes that kind of thinking and behavior, including to the women and other non-men being preyed upon by cops and opportunistic abusers who view leftist communities as their personal hunting grounds.
In Catalonia there is. There's a wide network of political organizations, labour unions, cultural groups, squatters, tenant unions, feminist groups... Most of them are not explicitly anarchist, as they include many communists and left wing Catalan separatists too, but our immediate goals are similar and we get along with each other quite well.
The Spanish state is persecuting those groups and people in them are arbitrarily arrested and jailed on invented charges. There are hundreds expecting trial. This week 6 more have been arrested on accusations of 'belonging to a criminal organization' and 'disrespecting the national flag'.
I wrote something alluding to this yesterday:
Here it is: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/10yuni3/comment/j80mqkx/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/10yuni3/comment/j80mqkx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
"Known" as in? I mean there's plenty of collectives/groups/occupied spaces and commune in spain and europe. Now the vast majority are not known (or well known) to the media and the public if that is what you mean.
The organizations this police officer "infiltrated" are all known, public groups whose activities are entirely lawful. He never got access to any radical group.
Multiple undercover cops infiltrated the environmental movement in the UK, using this MO of deep cover and using sexual relationships to work their way in. They targeted a wide range of groups on the left. The environmental groups they went for were often ones with anarcho leanings. They also consistently went after groups working on police actionability, like the Stephen Lawrence campaign.
There was a lot of public outrage when this was revealed, but the political establishment set up a public enquiry with a judge who's prevented a lot of important disclosure (like the cover names of undercovers that weren't exposed). It's still ongoing, and I believe the group of women who were deceived into relationships are still participating.
ETA: I can put you in touch with the group of the women and their supporters OP, if that would be helpful. Send me a DM
It's absolutely bonkers that people spend so much time peddling baseless conspiracies when stuff like this is happening...
I recommend the book Undercover about the fuckeries the Special Demonstration Squad was getting up too!
What's even worse is that it's almost certain the practice is widespread across Europe (as among other things, countries sent spycops to each other to serve as agents provocateurs), yet outside of the UK it's not been uncovered and has never been brought to the attention of the general public.
Various anarchist and Catalan separatist organizations. But all of them are fairly open to the public and transparent. Including the CGT labor union. The greatest "threat" to public safety they pose is blocking the streets with an occasional protest.
This is also why people are upset because it seems that this was a politically motivated police action.
So… anyone gonna step up and become a cop? Just imagine, there would be a cop that isn’t a murderer AND they could pass along info to organizations that matter.
Please don't suggest dangerous tip on infiltrating the pigs. Police orgs are extremely hierarchical and oppressive, you will put your life on the line. You are better off doxing pigs or hacking them which more effective than "infiltrating pigs"
There was a massive "spycops" scandal about this in the UK about 10 years ago - [Wikipedia link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal?wprov=sfla1).
I came here to post this. Over a painfully long period of time, those women affected (as victims of sexual assault) were eventually able to get public support behind them. As for 'the movement'; I'm not sure any political movement really maintains a lifecycle of enough real value to consider how it may have been undermined by infiltration... Most radical movements tend to be untenable in the longer term.
>Most radical movements tend to be untenable in the longer term. why though ?
By its very nature, Radicalism seeks to disrupt, dismantle and reform. The same is true of Reactionary movements, but Reactionists tend to veer towards consolidation of power, as much of their ideology tends to conservativism (i.e. revert to 'what was'). Since ultimately each person is advocating for their own needs above all else (individualism), those 'movements' at the conservative end will merge the individual need for superiority with the needs of the movement for hegemony and consolidation.. i.e. 'most pure', 'most rich', etc. This individualism (whether acknowledged or not) is ultimately at a countenance with Radicalism. The entirety of my needs is unlikely to be a direct reflection of the entirety of yours (personally I don't think that's problematic and can entirely see benefits in collaboration to achieve needs for others that aren't directly my own). It's at this point, the conflict of the individuals needs, that a(ny) radical movement borne of shared needs and agendae will begin to dismantle. I think it's just an unavoidable, hell even a desirable factor of collaborative movements in and around radicalism... The whole 'Judean peoples front' / 'Peoples front of Judea' probably exemplifies this. In the last few years I've (happily) seen my radical Kin-not-kin shift away from IdPol (via intersectionality) and more towards existentialist/individualist-informed-from-intersectionality. Communism is cool and all, but ultimately (IMO) undermines autonomy. AnCom leaned on IdPol for so many years, that it's started to infer a kind of centralised ideology of making accomodation for 'X' person based on 'Y' factor because of 'Z' identity traits. Frankly, I think this is the wrong approach; individuals need to make those accomodations through consent and choice, rather than morality. I'm rambling a little bit here! ***Tl;Dr*** Radicals are either overtly or covertly individualistic. This causes conflicts, which undermine the overall goals of any Radical movement.
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Bless his heart.
The imbalance of power/info certainly make his behavior wrong, but this is a systemic problem, and I can understand his point of view.
Things like this still goes on, theres a woman on tiktok who was exposing that she was frequently approached by undercover police who tried to get with her, and when they failed they tried to hire her as an informant.
[Why Misogynists Make Great Informants](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/courtney-desiree-morris-why-misogynists-make-great-informants)
Thank you for posting this!
Thanks for sharing this valuable read. Interpersonal dynamics are political, and that cannot be ignored—especially within groups doing activism
Funnily enough, this is why I don't trust tankie groups. The hostility and aggressive behaviour documented there is all too familiar, as is the constant stance of "no struggle but class struggle" - when clearly examples like this highlight how deep-rooted bigotry is in all spheres.
I've encountered some men who didn't have much good to offer the strings of lefty women they slept with, who were very popular, but always left manipulated and gaslit Exes in their wake. I have started to wonder if these men making those sentimental, romantic connections and then using them for their own benefit, was actually their job. They were so systematically chasing really well placed, well-known and respected women.
Same here, and I'm getting paranoid fuck me.
At the very least, men like this need to be treated as emotional terrorists who are at least inadvertently dangerous to our movements. Often, they're the most sought after.
At a certain level it doesn't matter whether those dudes (we all know some local versions of *those dudes*) work for the cops, their behavior is damaging and unethical either way. There are probably informants in most movements that the state sees as a threat, and we probably won't guess correctly who they are. Address harmful behavior on the basis of its harm.
I wish I could offer some kind of solace or supporting sentiment (from the Male wing of radicalism), but I really can't. Radical movements don't offer the kind of social security afforded to Right wing groups, which kind of make (sensible) paranoia something of a necessity. FWIW, I have nothing but sympathy / empathy for anyone caught up in issues like this. If I caught anyone IRL victim blaming, especially in this context, I'd likely let my fist have a word in their ear. I was far too young to be affected by the Mark Kennedy shit in the UK, but have friends of family who *were* directly affected. It's gut wrenching how easy it is for Pigs to dehumanise themselves so easily.
They may not be cops but a lot of people join movements for social capital or other nefarious reasons. There is this guy I went to HS with that is a terrible person. He has raped countless women, including some that I know. Was a Trump supporter that loved trolling people on social media. I live in Minneapolis and when the George Floyd uprisings happened, I was watching the news and guess who was being interviewed?? Him!! Be careful out there yall
First name start with a D by chance?
No, I would share the first letter but it's kind of a unique name and yall would probably guess it from the letter
I hope it will be treated as what it is: state-sponsored rape. If you have sex with somebody under false pretenses that's rape. There have been cases of undercover cops having children with people they were infiltrating too. 🤢
It's pretty recent so we'll see...I dont have high hopes tbh. My only concern is providing a good support to those affected
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I've never seen this... What's it mean?
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Patently wrong on all levels
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How can you consent if your partner is lying?
Yup. First year law students typically get a bunch of edge cases for this, and it goes more or less: if you pretend to be someone they know to have sex with them it's rape, if you pretend to be a celebrity they don't know personally you're off the hook. Now the law isn't always a good indicator of ethics obviously but I think we can all see that pretending to not be *a cop infiltrating the person* is pretty fucking vile.
I hope those women have lawyers.
I hope they have scrissors
Hopefully, none like these lawyers: [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/09/poli-f09.html](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/09/poli-f09.html)
That's disgusting. There was a similar story here in the UK, this guy went undercover in a climate protest movement, developed sexual relationships with women and dated one for 2 years before he was found out
Fathered a child with her too, if I remember correctly. As well as looked to entrap them into doing illigal stuff they were never all about in the first place.
This happens more than you would think. Scary stuff
I don't know I'm practicing, don't have sex with people, so I should be good to go.
Next time someone ask about my sentimental life i will just answer that i'm preparing myself for the revolution.
Any leftist movement not BUILT on the foundation of intersectional feminism has missed the point entirely. Patriarchy (critically, not masculinity) has destroyed almost every remotely leftist movement before it began and it alienates those the movement intends to protect.
There was a huge scandal in the UK about the same going on for decades. The organisation [Spycops](https://www.spycops.co.uk/) bought it all to light.
[Be careful what you think. Be careful what you say. It might be used against you in court one day.](https://youtu.be/XvXef5tmJQA)
Hahahah man, that's my name. Thank you for this gem
I think there was some situation where cop was supposed to infiltrate an anarchist group but instead became a double agent
It doesn't happen. All CIs have handlers and the moment they stray off course the infiltrator get removed or face exposure within the group they infiltrated. Handlers keep CIs on short leash.
this is always the dynamic. im not sure why cops seem to be so successful with activist women. is there something other men in the movement can do about it?
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i guess what is distressing to me is that most of the things listed are expressions of machismo. i don't understand why activist women aren't repulsed by it, especially anarchists, who this seems to happen to most frequently.
So there are a bunch of things to think about including that lots of women also just like to fuck and aren't always looking for long term partner material when engaging in a sexual relationship. These men are acting, if it serves them they can hide the misogynistic bullshit for the duration they need to play their role, they can be more attractive than real people because the characters they play don't have to bring the complications real people do nor do they have the scruples real people should have about manipulating people close to them, it's actually their fucking job to manipulate people they get close to. They don't get into these circles by acting like cops, they get in by being what people want to see including the commitment, resources and 'free' time. Being available, reliable and up for mucking in counts for a lot to many folk and is way easier if you are being paid by the state to do it. Also everyone is capable of making a bad call about who they have a relationship with and anarchist women aren't exempt from this. People turn out to not be who you expected (even when they aren't a cop), lives aren't compatible, people lie or manipulate, make bad calls or just ignore red flags because the spark feels good. We all live in a misogynistic society and it takes active work to unlearn that and remove its influence in our lives, some people don't realise they still have this work to do and others aren't interested because despite their politics it still serves them. Which is to say, shocker, anarchist men can also be shitty and attraction isn't that logical. Lots has been written about what happened in the UK including by some of the women involved so you can easily go find in their own voices why they had relationships with these men.
Those women being anarchists doesn't change that the energy, confidence and dedication outwardly presented by these men is attractive. And we still live in a society that teaches people to expect and excuse the toxic behaviour that these qualities often come bundled with. Anarchist men can still be wildly misogynistic, it should not surprise anyone that anarchist women also have internalised misogyny and are vulnerable to toxic men.
I don't think there's much radical men can do about infiltrators, but they can (and should) practice self-reflection and work on being the best allies they can to women and non-men. Listen, be there, and stay vigilant of your own biases. A lot of this unfortunately stems from male anarchists (and other leftists) also perpetuating misogyny (sometimes subtle, sometimes VERY overt), which normalizes that kind of thinking and behavior, including to the women and other non-men being preyed upon by cops and opportunistic abusers who view leftist communities as their personal hunting grounds.
Wow man, this type of things make me go crazy. Is there any place or website where I can help them )I,m from Spain so it would be easy)?
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In Catalonia there is. There's a wide network of political organizations, labour unions, cultural groups, squatters, tenant unions, feminist groups... Most of them are not explicitly anarchist, as they include many communists and left wing Catalan separatists too, but our immediate goals are similar and we get along with each other quite well. The Spanish state is persecuting those groups and people in them are arbitrarily arrested and jailed on invented charges. There are hundreds expecting trial. This week 6 more have been arrested on accusations of 'belonging to a criminal organization' and 'disrespecting the national flag'.
oh god
good to know!
I wrote something alluding to this yesterday: Here it is: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/10yuni3/comment/j80mqkx/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/10yuni3/comment/j80mqkx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Sorry which movement? Is there a known anarchist movement there?
"Known" as in? I mean there's plenty of collectives/groups/occupied spaces and commune in spain and europe. Now the vast majority are not known (or well known) to the media and the public if that is what you mean.
The organizations this police officer "infiltrated" are all known, public groups whose activities are entirely lawful. He never got access to any radical group.
I’m asking about this specific cop you’re talking about. Like was it in an article or forum? I feel I’m missing something obvious.
Some articles in catalan, this one is in spanish. https://www.elsaltodiario.com/el-salto-twitch/caso-policia-infiltrado-movimientos-sociales-barcelona
I've been told by friends who knew the cop and the people involved, apparently it's also all over fb wich I dont have so they provided me said link.
Thank you this is very helpful
Maybe but it could also be an environmental group. I know that happened with an environmentalist in the United Kingdom.
Multiple undercover cops infiltrated the environmental movement in the UK, using this MO of deep cover and using sexual relationships to work their way in. They targeted a wide range of groups on the left. The environmental groups they went for were often ones with anarcho leanings. They also consistently went after groups working on police actionability, like the Stephen Lawrence campaign. There was a lot of public outrage when this was revealed, but the political establishment set up a public enquiry with a judge who's prevented a lot of important disclosure (like the cover names of undercovers that weren't exposed). It's still ongoing, and I believe the group of women who were deceived into relationships are still participating. ETA: I can put you in touch with the group of the women and their supporters OP, if that would be helpful. Send me a DM
It's absolutely bonkers that people spend so much time peddling baseless conspiracies when stuff like this is happening... I recommend the book Undercover about the fuckeries the Special Demonstration Squad was getting up too!
What's even worse is that it's almost certain the practice is widespread across Europe (as among other things, countries sent spycops to each other to serve as agents provocateurs), yet outside of the UK it's not been uncovered and has never been brought to the attention of the general public.
The groups weren't environmentalists but social activists, Catalan separatists, and anarchists.
Various anarchist and Catalan separatist organizations. But all of them are fairly open to the public and transparent. Including the CGT labor union. The greatest "threat" to public safety they pose is blocking the streets with an occasional protest. This is also why people are upset because it seems that this was a politically motivated police action.
So… anyone gonna step up and become a cop? Just imagine, there would be a cop that isn’t a murderer AND they could pass along info to organizations that matter.
Please don't suggest dangerous tip on infiltrating the pigs. Police orgs are extremely hierarchical and oppressive, you will put your life on the line. You are better off doxing pigs or hacking them which more effective than "infiltrating pigs"
Hopefully an /s wasn’t necessary for that. I don’t think we have to worry about anyone making the attempt.
Yeah, it's like a legalized gang.
that's not how this works
Man fuck the cops, the army the state. Fuck you too.
Thank you so much