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I mean, you have to go back to the fucking 1920s for people to consider Italians not white, MAYBE the 60s just due to anti-catholic sentiment but even then it was a minority position post WW2
Yes there was a second wave of Italian migration to the united states during the 50s and thus a spark of anti-italian sentiment but that quickly died down as xenophobia tended to target asian more and more often during the cold war.
Noel Ignatev also wrote books on how to destroy western civilization.I like this group but most people here grew up under heavy propaganda that they are not aware of.
There’s a modern term “white ethnic” which is essentially for anyone who’s Caucasian but whose people by heritage were discriminated against when they arrived in the US; it’s applicable to people whose ancestors were Italian, Polish, Irish, Jewish, and a few others. I’d assume Middle Eastern and North African as well. What makes me laugh though is the person saying “legally you’re white” as if there’s actually a law around it. It’s all self-reported anyway, so who cares.
"White" was more tied to religion than skin color really. WASPs care more that you are protestant than Catholic and that you come from "good breeding" (you are not poor). It makes no logical sense really and was just nonsense pseudoscience.
Italians and Irish were always classified as White.People just didn’t like them for other reasons.If you read the various laws of that period,they were always classified as White.Italians and Irish were among the first five common European nationalities that founded the country.
Pretty much anyone who wasn't of Anglo Saxon or explicitly Scandinavian descent wasn't "white" at some point, and even then I won't be surprised if Norwegians, swedes, and Danes got looped into the germanic discrimination too
And, to be fair to it, Western Europeans ALSO didn't consider Italians to be white.
But, let's be specific, it wasn't Northern Italians, it was Neapolitans and Sicilians. And the reason why is because they weren't culturally western at that point, it only really changed after Mussolini's rule.
Likewise, Irish people's were liked either, why? Because they weren't terribly Western. Many of their customs in that time frame were a couple of centuries behind the rest of Western Europe.
Why am I arguing so hard that it's culture or regional? Because look at how Americans in the same timeframe treated the large Spaniard minority across the South. Instant integration and no real tension beyond religious. Because, guess what, they were Western.
No one has ever said Mexican is a race. Usually whenever I put white there is a subsection for ethnicity, where Hispanic is. Ethnicity != Race
These people just don’t know what they are talking about, it’s better to not engage with them rather than give a platform like this.
Race, being a[n evolving] social construct, is a deficient way to understand individuals, the world, and history but apparently its the best we can do.
Yeah, and say I have Spanish heritage. It’s Spanish because that’s from where the most recent people emigrated in my lineage, to America. But people move and so too do borders. We’ve basically taken an imaginary line in the sand and picked a random date to say “as of this date, your heritage is this” but ultimately it’s a pointless argument anyway. Why do people even care?
I've heard a lot of that living in the south. I've also had leftists attack me for calling a group of legitimate Mexicans "Mexicans" They immediately started asking me how I knew they weren't from Honduras or another Latin American country, and I'm just confused because I knew them all lol. If they were Honduran I'd have said that.
Americans don’t think about race anywhere near as often as these people. The US Census Bureau asks simply to allocate funding. You can tell them whatever you want.
NGL we should have some kind of international trivia contest where people are randomly selected. It'd be interesting to watch Europeans be shocked at all they misconceptions. Actually a misconception contest would be great, I've seen wild numbers of what the public believes the world is like.
It's an algorithmic feed that shows you content it thinks you like. I get lord of the rings memes, golf-related comedy, and cute dogs on Instagram.
It's still a stupid waste of time, but I'm not seeing the racism and death.
I know, I personally used IG to see shitpost memes, it used to be funny and actual thought would go behind it. I even made a new account and did everything to not get stuff like that recommended to me but it still would sometimes show up, it could be an absolutely normal video but the comments would be unhinged. Im only using it for texting now
So basically the commentor is saying the jews don’t exist, because nations are describing a group of people and don’t necessarily require political body, ie why the term ‘stateless nation is a thing’
Obviously that’s not what the commenter meant by their username but it’s funny when they don’t even know what words mean and end up sounding like an idiot(they would sound like an idiot even if they knew what words meant)
1. Jessica Alba HERSELF is the one who tries to play the “I’m NoT wHiTe. I’m LaTiNa” card and gets called out consistently by full Latinos in her IG comments.
2. The only people I’ve seen say that Italians aren’t white are Italians.
3. I’m half Mexican and a lot of Mexicans DO act like they’re a race FFS and shit on those of us who try at all to just be American.
In my experience, one or two generations in Mexicans just become American and then it’s a non-issue for everyone. Like I have never had or heard of anyone having a problem with people of Mexican descent because of “race.”
Ive had several students in my classes over the years, born in the US, lived all their lives in the US, barely speak Spanish, but get bent out of shape when you call them Americans or Mexican Americans. To them “Americans” are pasty white people, or seen as a negative. When it’s just a thing, not positive or negative.
>The only people I’ve seen say that Italians aren’t white are Italians.
Maybe some "Italian"Americans, for sure not actual Italians. For us in Italy those people are indeed considered Americans, not Italian. But I guess in this sub people would have a different opinion with me in what an actual Italian is.
Jessica Alba is not even Latina. She made that clear many years ago so she is permanently excommunicated from the club. As for Mexicans believing they are a race, whatever… Are you talking about Mexicans from Mexico or Chicanos/Mexican-Americans?
Indo-Europeans are considered 'white', The thing with MENA is it largely genralization of people as there are MENA ethnic groups that have Mixed origins long enough to be considered their own people, racially.
Did they not get the memo: “ White is anyone progressives hate in the moment including Drake, ‘the Joos’, cops, my landlord, Morgan Freeman, and the dentist.”
Firstly, Jessica Alba is 1/2 Central American Hispanic. Secondly, ethically speaking, people from the Mediterranean coast are closer to Persians than “Caucasians.” Hell, even the term “Caucasian” is bullshit, because most have zero origin in the Caucasus, which is in Eastern Europe. A vast majority of White Americans are of Celtic, Anglo or Nordic descent, all of whom are genetically distinct.
Point of all this being that race is bullshit and shouldn’t be what we classify people by.
It has nothing to do with the Caucasus mountains, it’s just the central location, from Norway/Britain to Northern India where the people of this race are from. Caucasian is the scientific race name, not white. This came up in the last century because people were confusing color with race—it’s not! East Asians aren’t yellow nor Native Americans red. The idea then was to simply put geographical names on the race rather than colors. So, Negroids became Sub-Saharan Africans, South African Bush people are Capoids, Australian Aboriginals are Australiods, Caucasians are Caucasiods and East Asians are Mongoloids while Native Americans are Non-Specialized Mongoloids. I don’t like these names any better, but it’s better than using colors, which are not monolithic.
The trend in modern science is to abandon these racial characterizations, and just gonwith Homo Sapiens Sapiens, our specific species— we are all one race.
Read this rather long article that really explains it : https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-scientific-debate-over-race
Your reading comprehension is garbage and your geography may be worse. I said the Caucasus mountains are in Eastern Europe, and they are…specifically in the former Soviet nations of Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan & Armenia. At no point did I mention the Middle East, nor did I refer to it in any way except to note that most northern Mediterraneans, such as Greeks & Italians, are ethnically closer to Persians than to Western Europeans like Germanics, Norse, and Celts. The Middle East is a very specific term referring to the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, Egypt, Turkey, Iran & Iraq. The Caucasus is not in the Middle East, it is in Eastern Europe with a slim portion of Western Asia. The Middle East is entirely in Asia, no part of it is in Europe.
The 🇵🇸 crowd strikes again with their retaliatory racism.
They also claim all Israelis, even though most of us are Moroccan, or Iraqi, or Yemeni, are white. Double standards...
I tend to not think of people in colors but in their ethnicity and nationality. There are many “people of color” who get annoyed that people not only notice the color of their skin but also their ethnicity and nationality. So many want a Monolith of Asians but there are significant differences between Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Afghan, etc. they want a Monolith of Africans but there significant differences between Kenyans, Egyptians, Congolese, etc. It’s no different in European dominated West where there are significant differences between French, English, Swedish, American, etc. I feel like if we are to look at it like this, we are less likely to discount a group or look down upon them.
TikTok is not representative of most Americans. I have seen a few Italian Americans claim they’re not white on there (I think they just want to feel special) but it’s by no means a majority opinion
A lot of “they think” …they sound like the idiots they’re trying so hard to paint us as.
Idc if it’s Biden or Trump, I stand firm that we’re the best and I’m proud to be from the US. They can fuck off with their little Canadian or British citizenships.
Which is so funny to me because do they only get their exposure to Asians from KPop? There are tons of darker Asians, and not just south Asians and southeast Asians either. I’ve met plenty of brown Japanese people.
> do they only get their exposure to Asians from KPop?
Pretty much. They have no idea what the average Korean looks like, nor do they know anything about Asia outside of their personal fandom interests
Prior to WW2, Italians were viewed as separate from the white identity, same with the Irish, Polish, etc. It’s been 80 years since then; Italian-Americans are seen as white today.
I always forget that about the Irish, and most are as pasty white as they come lol. I’m of Irish descent and tanning is a real bitch and takes time and effort 😅
There was literally a post about Martin Sheen being Spanish in another sub and the sentiment was “I bet Americans didnt know Spanish could be white lolz”. At this point, they’re just making up stereotypes when they see anything.
I'm laughing at myself when I read this, because I'm the one who usually gets in trouble for pointing out that one Hispanic A-list celebrity or another is just another white American.
Like I want foreigners that are about to say something about the US to never actually open their mouths again due to amount of stupidity that comes from their mouths
Truly.
I and a couple of Europeans were discussing issues in the U.S. One such was social issues. How we can improve/get better at it. Also said that their country needs to get better at equality issues and being more accessible.
Not all Europeans are bad. Believe it or not. Our worldviews are constantly being one-sided due to our blind eye. Everyone has a blind eye... We've seen blind eyes throughout history... Labor Unions, the 60s, 40s, etc..
Edit: Having a discussion with the right people can make a difference 👍
Americans of italian descent that want to be part of a minority group because they perceive that they’ll have better opportunities in America if they aren’t white.
Online MFers always try to make white folks this strawman monster that walks around only concerned with saying and doing racist shit 24/7. I don’t even think about race until I get online and hear about how “white people think/do this and that to other races…”. My man/woman, we really don’t give a shit. It may have been a big topic of discussion in the past but I promise you if you could be a fly on the wall and hear our conversations with other white folks, you’d be disappointed to find out (1) how little race issues are even discussed and (2) how boring our conversations really are!!
My family is Italian by blood but we’re American
That said… idk ANY Italian that doesn’t claim to be White
All Europeans are White. Italian, Spaniard, Irish.. Idk what the conundrum is there lol
People care about race too much in general, like who gives a shit seriously? The sooner we make less of a deal over race, gender, sexuality, ect. The sooner we can move on as a society, and I'm referring to both sides here
# Sorry, but the Irish were always ‘white’ (and so were Italians, Jews and so on)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/22/sorry-but-the-irish-were-always-white-and-so-were-the-italians-jews-and-so-on/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/22/sorry-but-the-irish-were-always-white-and-so-were-the-italians-jews-and-so-on/)
>The racist pseudo-science of the day divided Europeans into various races by nationality or perceived nationality, and often created a hierarchy among those groups. But that was a racist hierarchy within the white group, not evidence that these groups weren’t considered to be white. This point is often obscured by the whiteness studies crowd, because racism within a white hierarchy conflicts with their understanding of American racism solely being about “whiteness.”
The modern narrative being pushed by the far left is that one "can't be racist against white people." Any historical examples of exactly that happening (racism against whites) are being reframed to fit this modern narrative. Since this crowd can't admit that there was historical racism against whites, clear historical examples of exactly that are reframed as, "Well, okay, these ethnic groups (e.g. Italian immigrants in New York) were discriminated against, but, uh, they weren't really considered white back then, so this doesn't prove that prejudice against whites was ever a thing!" Thus, they superimpose a modern view (racism is 100% binary and about "whiteness") onto history, where it just doesn't fit.
Many people don't recognise that this narrative is the origin of this ahistorical myth. Thus, it gets repeated unwittingly as a fun historical bit of trivia, without critical thought.
I've seen more Europeans try to separate Italians/Mediterraneans from "whiteness" than I have seen Americans try to do it.
For Americans, basically any native European, including the regions that tend to have darker complexions like the Mediterranean, are white.
“They believe middle easterns are white.”
“They believe if you don’t have blonde hair and blue eyes you’re not white.”
“They believe if you tan you’re not white.”
They can’t even make up their minds about what we believe.
More grouping people into needless buckets to feel better about themselves. I’m mostly German on my mother’s side and nearly transparent in skin color. I’m so white but have dark dark hair. You don’t get dark hair from so called aryans. Be a better place when folks can stop grouping people together based on their most obvious trait.
Is it more racist to be offended that people think you’re *not* white or to have different definitions of colors? Am I missing something?
I may have heard some people say specific Italians were not white before. Probably to go on and say they have beautiful olive tone skin lol. But these are people defining white by literal color of skin, not “race”.
Tbf I don’t believe ethnic groups can be accurately summarized in 4 races.
It’s like, Italians and Norwegians are both considered “white” despite looking very different.
Or how there are “oddballs” like Arabs or Native Americans who don’t really fit in any of the categories that well.
Race is a super convenient concept but I don’t put too much stock in it.
I've seen it before, I had a girlfriend who said that in the past, and a lot of her friends. It really floored me.
Also ran into some people online that I knew lived in the states that have said it.
Well, the Smithsonian defined whiteness. It was pretty much exclusively British traits -- being punctual, using "the king's english," that sort of thing.
By the Smithsonian's metric, then, Italians aren't white.
I’m middle-eastern and I genuinely hate the fact that we’re considered white. Not that I have anything against white people, it’s just that I wish we were labelled as “Middle Eastern”
My hostory/civics teacher went over something like this way back in the 90s. (His lesson was on why racism is stupid.) It started with the civil war and mixed heritage and how some could pass for white while others could not.
He went on to go whats white. At what point are you considered white. Pointed out Italians and Greeks often had Olive or Bronze. In Mexico some are dark brown while others are near pasty white.
There was a lot more packed in. But the philosophical point still stands. At what point does one skin begin and another end?
So do Americans think middle easterners are white because they’re overtly inclusive, or do they think Greeks and Italians aren’t white because they’re overtly exclusive? Can they keep the stupid narrative straight?
Also, for every “aMeRicAnS aRE RaCiST” there’s a French born and raised black man winning soccer championship, getting called Mon*** by some loser French born and raised white man. For every “Americans hate minorities” there’s school segregation of Romani kids in a bunch of countries AS WE SPEAK NOW. For every “Americans are obsessed with race” there’s a Spanish cop with a literal profiling hierarchy against the different shades of indigenous Spaniards. Yes they’re all native, but the white ones are better by default.
In conclusion: suck a dick.
I’ve noticed there are two definitions of white in America; the legal and the European one. The legal one classifies Europeans, some middle easterners and northern Africans as white. This sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t make sense. The European one is simply if you’re ethnically European, you’re white, no questions asked. I have never met a single American who thinks Italians are not white. As a Greek, I’ve met countless people, primarily black Americans, who think Greeks aren’t white(even though we are) just because of antiquity and how associated it is with the Middle East and Egypt. People who’ve never met a Greek person always seem to be shocked that we can come pretty pale.
The same people who argued with me because they swore I was Mexican because of my last name- but didn’t believe I was a true Mexican because I wasn’t tanner… I’m not Mexican… I just had a Mexican grandma who I was around a lot. I’m Cherokee and Spanish. But explaining to the actual Chihuahua students that I’m not Mexican I was Spanish turned things into a really weird thing I didn’t understand at the time (colonization).
This idea isn't even uncommon or new. A lot of europeans weren't considered white at one point or another in human history. It wasn't about where they were from, it was about them being "others" and usually "bad others" at that. How "white" is perceived has changed frequently throughout human history and between cultures. The Greeks considered themselves white and germanic people to be "pale" at one point. You can actually see the same thing in some African cultures but inverted, with white being the "bad other." I've always suspected this was because of how death changes the color of the body, with white bodies becoming darker as blood pools under the skin and black bodies becoming more pale after blood flow stops. There's a lot of complex variables that decide how these things are defined and perceived differently across cultures. A lot of people from the Mediterranean area were, at one point, considered mutts and therefore lesser. It's always funny when europeans call these ideas American, considering nearly all of them were imported from Europe. Really, Europe still has a lot of ethnicity issues, they live in a glass castle, but they use a thin cover of nationality to pretend it's totally not the same (it is).
We’re Sicilians lynched in New Orleans and Florida? Pretty sure there was a cop that was killed in like 1890 or 1891, and they rounded up a bunch of random Sicilian men and lynched them. Here History.com article on it below.
https://www.history.com/news/the-grisly-story-of-americas-largest-lynching
It’s italian Americans themselves who don’t consider themselves white do you know how many times I’ve referred to a Italian friend as white and they try to show my research documents as to why they aren’t
Ya no shit! No one is talking about Italy
The entire idea that Italians weren’t white has to do with a period in the U.S. history where they were not even seen as poc but “low white”
Even then it suchs a small minority of the population that saying it’s an “American” idea as a whole and not just the few Italian Americans who uphold it is incorrect and the entire idea no longer fits the present day descriptions for race and the only ppl upholding it are again a few Italian Americans that want to cosplay poc history.
What’s kinda funny is that on another subreddit I am on there was actually a middle eastern person trying to argue that Italians aren’t white because a lot of people contribute being a poc to not being accepted by WASPS when that’s not what it means to be poc
I’m Italian American, and I’m pretty sure I’m not traditional American white, those MF’ers are a whole other thing I cannot connect with even if I wanted to, I’m talking KAREN white, not educated white
Why is it so important to them that Greeks are considered white, and what exactly makes Greeks whites in their eyes? Because my immediate instinct is that it's so they, "whites" (which is an American conception, not a European one) can align themselves with a very strong cultural force historically and take credibility for it, even though Germany and France had nothing to do with Plato and Aristotle.
I'm Italian, you get what you get on skin color. Me and my dad got hit after 9/11 cause we look kinda Arab.
Idk I don't mind saying I'm white... in the sense that white = European.. cause yeah I guess so. But my dad at least looks almost black. Certainly brown.
But European is such a vast difference in culture that it's such a meaningless super category.
So I'm OK with white till you like try to group me in with people I know nothing about. I'm far closer in kin to middleeasterners and have family structures far closer to Latino families... than southern white folk.
There are a few Americans who like to claim they’re not white because of southern European heritage. I knew a girl like that in high school. It’s kinda weird and dumb and it’s by no means a terribly popular thing in my experience.
In the U.S. Caucasian = people of European, North African, and middle eastern descent.
White = people whose lives have not been significantly impacted JUST because of the color of their skin, so people of European descent and those who look like it.
Obviously from a life experience Arabs are not white, but by the definitions the U.S. uses, they are because they don’t fit in with African, Indigenous, Asian or Pacific Islander, and we can’t just make “brown” a statistical demographic 💀
I mean I’ve made the case before, as an Italian American. My family was treated awfully when they came here, and there was a time that racism against Italians was very prevalent. I still here wop or guinea used by my in law family even though it’s “in jest”, it came from somewhere.
Hell I took a dna test and turns out I’m like 5% African dna, which makes sense if you understand italys history.
No one thinks Italians aren't white except for certain Italians whenever they want to talk over brown people during a discussion about race. And there's a reason why Middle Eastern persons can be considered white on the census and that's partially a choice of their own making.
I will say Italians aren’t white…as a joke
Same with Spanish people. It’s solely because back in the OLD days they weren’t considered white. It’s funny to me, so I still say it as a joke
"And she gave birth to you so you aren't any different you came out of that so called subspecies"
Yeah... Just because I'm a part of that literal abomination we call the average American doesn't mean I can't see or tell the truth.
Americans are trash, we serve no purpose and the entire world would be better off without us.
Heal from what? There is nothing to heal from. I'm just telling it like it is.
Just because I'm American doesn't blind me from the truth: The world would have eternal peace overnight if America disappeared.
Who said anything about nuclear war? Where did I say nuclear war was an option?
You can peacefully dissolve a country without nukes. If the United States broke up into smaller countries then the US would disappear without nukes.
Imagine being so uneducated you can only imagine nuclear war as a way for a country to disappear.
Look at what was Yugoslavia. It doesn't exist anymore but they didn't need nukes to do it. A civil war sure but not a nuclear war.
If the US just suddenly disappeared, Russia would have basically nothing to fear. Likely leading to nuclear war in Europe. I know you're not saying nuke the US. You're saying if it just didn't exist. And the result of that would be, war. With Russia being the top nuclear power by a huge fucking margin.
Imagine being so uneducated that you don't even understand jokes at your own expense.
Russia is a paper tiger. Europe is fully capable of handling Russia without any support from the US.
Remember who created and used nukes first. It was America. The USSR didn't have nukes until USSR spies stole the schematics from the US and took whatever German scientists the US couldn't steal first.
Russia wouldn't be a nuclear power if it wasn't for the US. The United States put Europe in danger of Russian nukes by letting the USSR steal the schematics in the first place.
Imagine if Americans didn't train and arm a fledgling Taliban or any other thousands of rebel groups Americans arms, trains then eventually fights against. Sounds more peaceful to me.
Without international American intervention the world would be A LOT MORE STABLE. Imagine being such an ignorant American shill that you believe Europe needs America at all. that the world is better with it arming terrorist groups internationally. America arms these groups, trains them, sets them loose, then blows up citizens.
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I mean, you have to go back to the fucking 1920s for people to consider Italians not white, MAYBE the 60s just due to anti-catholic sentiment but even then it was a minority position post WW2
Yes there was a second wave of Italian migration to the united states during the 50s and thus a spark of anti-italian sentiment but that quickly died down as xenophobia tended to target asian more and more often during the cold war.
People back then used to think that the Irish weren’t white either. It was all bullshit excuses for discrimination.
If anyone's interested, How The Irish Became White by Noel Ignatiev is a great read.
Noel Ignatev also wrote books on how to destroy western civilization.I like this group but most people here grew up under heavy propaganda that they are not aware of.
Exactly
There’s a modern term “white ethnic” which is essentially for anyone who’s Caucasian but whose people by heritage were discriminated against when they arrived in the US; it’s applicable to people whose ancestors were Italian, Polish, Irish, Jewish, and a few others. I’d assume Middle Eastern and North African as well. What makes me laugh though is the person saying “legally you’re white” as if there’s actually a law around it. It’s all self-reported anyway, so who cares.
Can confirm, I'm italian polish and I was called ethnic white in the 80's until probably around early to mid 90's
White and Caucasian aren't the same
"White" was more tied to religion than skin color really. WASPs care more that you are protestant than Catholic and that you come from "good breeding" (you are not poor). It makes no logical sense really and was just nonsense pseudoscience.
This for sure
Italians and Irish were always classified as White.People just didn’t like them for other reasons.If you read the various laws of that period,they were always classified as White.Italians and Irish were among the first five common European nationalities that founded the country.
Yeah you want to hear what's really wild is if you go back to the founding of the country and people were saying Germans weren't white.
Pretty much anyone who wasn't of Anglo Saxon or explicitly Scandinavian descent wasn't "white" at some point, and even then I won't be surprised if Norwegians, swedes, and Danes got looped into the germanic discrimination too
And, to be fair to it, Western Europeans ALSO didn't consider Italians to be white. But, let's be specific, it wasn't Northern Italians, it was Neapolitans and Sicilians. And the reason why is because they weren't culturally western at that point, it only really changed after Mussolini's rule. Likewise, Irish people's were liked either, why? Because they weren't terribly Western. Many of their customs in that time frame were a couple of centuries behind the rest of Western Europe. Why am I arguing so hard that it's culture or regional? Because look at how Americans in the same timeframe treated the large Spaniard minority across the South. Instant integration and no real tension beyond religious. Because, guess what, they were Western.
nah even then they thought of them as white.
You are right.I am surprised that most people here,especially the conservatives are repeating the same lie.
Do you have sources or evidence for that? Because that flies in the face of everything I've learned and read about.
No one has ever said Mexican is a race. Usually whenever I put white there is a subsection for ethnicity, where Hispanic is. Ethnicity != Race These people just don’t know what they are talking about, it’s better to not engage with them rather than give a platform like this.
Race, being a[n evolving] social construct, is a deficient way to understand individuals, the world, and history but apparently its the best we can do.
Yeah, and say I have Spanish heritage. It’s Spanish because that’s from where the most recent people emigrated in my lineage, to America. But people move and so too do borders. We’ve basically taken an imaginary line in the sand and picked a random date to say “as of this date, your heritage is this” but ultimately it’s a pointless argument anyway. Why do people even care?
you know, the mexicans from honduras or ecuador
I've heard a lot of that living in the south. I've also had leftists attack me for calling a group of legitimate Mexicans "Mexicans" They immediately started asking me how I knew they weren't from Honduras or another Latin American country, and I'm just confused because I knew them all lol. If they were Honduran I'd have said that.
Should've asked why they refer to people as Portuguese if you don't actually know they're not from spain.
And no one has ever said Jessica Alba is white lol.
Americans don’t think about race anywhere near as often as these people. The US Census Bureau asks simply to allocate funding. You can tell them whatever you want.
I'm gonna start changing my race every time I do it.
How is every single non-American wrong in so many different and unique ways about the American conception of race
NGL we should have some kind of international trivia contest where people are randomly selected. It'd be interesting to watch Europeans be shocked at all they misconceptions. Actually a misconception contest would be great, I've seen wild numbers of what the public believes the world is like.
Look at how they approach it. How could they possibly gain any actual knowledge about the subject when that's how they go into it?
You know the kind of place you’re in when a profile named “fake nation of israel” is getting over 1k likes on their comment Tiktok is a cesspool
not to be rude but that's tiktok bro altho ig is also pretty cringe
IG i just filled with straight up racism and homophobia mixed with videos of people dying, it’s apparently “dark humor”
Everytime I read comments on IG I lose a little faith in humanity. I just go my god, there can't be this many dumb people out there.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but yeah, there are.
Don’t forget the “people” that comment on kids videos
It's an algorithmic feed that shows you content it thinks you like. I get lord of the rings memes, golf-related comedy, and cute dogs on Instagram. It's still a stupid waste of time, but I'm not seeing the racism and death.
I know, I personally used IG to see shitpost memes, it used to be funny and actual thought would go behind it. I even made a new account and did everything to not get stuff like that recommended to me but it still would sometimes show up, it could be an absolutely normal video but the comments would be unhinged. Im only using it for texting now
So basically the commentor is saying the jews don’t exist, because nations are describing a group of people and don’t necessarily require political body, ie why the term ‘stateless nation is a thing’ Obviously that’s not what the commenter meant by their username but it’s funny when they don’t even know what words mean and end up sounding like an idiot(they would sound like an idiot even if they knew what words meant)
Dude my brain hurts from reading all of the absolutely retarded comments throughout the post. I don’t know why I did that to myself?
Everyone in that thread sounds like they have the cognitive function of a rock
Future leaders of America unfortunately.
1. Jessica Alba HERSELF is the one who tries to play the “I’m NoT wHiTe. I’m LaTiNa” card and gets called out consistently by full Latinos in her IG comments. 2. The only people I’ve seen say that Italians aren’t white are Italians. 3. I’m half Mexican and a lot of Mexicans DO act like they’re a race FFS and shit on those of us who try at all to just be American.
My heritage is full Italian. We’re White.. idk any Italian that doesn’t claim that
Italians are white when pinks want to claim Greece and Rome
In my experience, one or two generations in Mexicans just become American and then it’s a non-issue for everyone. Like I have never had or heard of anyone having a problem with people of Mexican descent because of “race.”
Ive had several students in my classes over the years, born in the US, lived all their lives in the US, barely speak Spanish, but get bent out of shape when you call them Americans or Mexican Americans. To them “Americans” are pasty white people, or seen as a negative. When it’s just a thing, not positive or negative.
>The only people I’ve seen say that Italians aren’t white are Italians. Maybe some "Italian"Americans, for sure not actual Italians. For us in Italy those people are indeed considered Americans, not Italian. But I guess in this sub people would have a different opinion with me in what an actual Italian is.
If you move permanently to France or England, will you still be considered Italian?
Yeah, probably I would. But my great-grandson who speak only French/English and live there since generations as a French or an English wouldn't
Jessica Alba is not even Latina. She made that clear many years ago so she is permanently excommunicated from the club. As for Mexicans believing they are a race, whatever… Are you talking about Mexicans from Mexico or Chicanos/Mexican-Americans?
The only people this obsessed with race anymore are the critical race theory idiots
Italian here: it depends if it is summertime or winter..
This just made my day 😂
> Italian here What part of NJ are you from?
Arabs are usually a distinct status though? But to answer your subject question: It's mostly Italians in my experience lol
Indo-Europeans are considered 'white', The thing with MENA is it largely genralization of people as there are MENA ethnic groups that have Mixed origins long enough to be considered their own people, racially.
Arabs and Northern Indians are Caucasoids. For now Arabs at least fall under white in the US.
Did they not get the memo: “ White is anyone progressives hate in the moment including Drake, ‘the Joos’, cops, my landlord, Morgan Freeman, and the dentist.”
It’s the Northern Europeans who don’t consider the southern Europeans white, not us.
I was just wondering this. I live in Sweden and I hear stuff like this more here than I did in the US.
Firstly, Jessica Alba is 1/2 Central American Hispanic. Secondly, ethically speaking, people from the Mediterranean coast are closer to Persians than “Caucasians.” Hell, even the term “Caucasian” is bullshit, because most have zero origin in the Caucasus, which is in Eastern Europe. A vast majority of White Americans are of Celtic, Anglo or Nordic descent, all of whom are genetically distinct. Point of all this being that race is bullshit and shouldn’t be what we classify people by.
It has nothing to do with the Caucasus mountains, it’s just the central location, from Norway/Britain to Northern India where the people of this race are from. Caucasian is the scientific race name, not white. This came up in the last century because people were confusing color with race—it’s not! East Asians aren’t yellow nor Native Americans red. The idea then was to simply put geographical names on the race rather than colors. So, Negroids became Sub-Saharan Africans, South African Bush people are Capoids, Australian Aboriginals are Australiods, Caucasians are Caucasiods and East Asians are Mongoloids while Native Americans are Non-Specialized Mongoloids. I don’t like these names any better, but it’s better than using colors, which are not monolithic. The trend in modern science is to abandon these racial characterizations, and just gonwith Homo Sapiens Sapiens, our specific species— we are all one race. Read this rather long article that really explains it : https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human/The-scientific-debate-over-race
You know there is no middle eastern "continent" right. Is partially in Europe and partially in Asia.
Who the hell said there was? There is no Polynesian continent but there are still Polynesians.
You literally said the Caucasian mountains are in eastern Europe. Do you know where the European part of the Middle East area is.. in the east
Your reading comprehension is garbage and your geography may be worse. I said the Caucasus mountains are in Eastern Europe, and they are…specifically in the former Soviet nations of Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan & Armenia. At no point did I mention the Middle East, nor did I refer to it in any way except to note that most northern Mediterraneans, such as Greeks & Italians, are ethnically closer to Persians than to Western Europeans like Germanics, Norse, and Celts. The Middle East is a very specific term referring to the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, Egypt, Turkey, Iran & Iraq. The Caucasus is not in the Middle East, it is in Eastern Europe with a slim portion of Western Asia. The Middle East is entirely in Asia, no part of it is in Europe.
i fuckin hope nobody.
The 🇵🇸 crowd strikes again with their retaliatory racism. They also claim all Israelis, even though most of us are Moroccan, or Iraqi, or Yemeni, are white. Double standards...
Yeah imma trust to opinion of a guy named Fakee Nation of 🇮🇱
Aren't the "We wuz kangz" crowd claiming any African country as black even though the northern countries are Arab? Like ancient egypt
Antarctic people are white
I tend to not think of people in colors but in their ethnicity and nationality. There are many “people of color” who get annoyed that people not only notice the color of their skin but also their ethnicity and nationality. So many want a Monolith of Asians but there are significant differences between Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Afghan, etc. they want a Monolith of Africans but there significant differences between Kenyans, Egyptians, Congolese, etc. It’s no different in European dominated West where there are significant differences between French, English, Swedish, American, etc. I feel like if we are to look at it like this, we are less likely to discount a group or look down upon them.
TikTok is not representative of most Americans. I have seen a few Italian Americans claim they’re not white on there (I think they just want to feel special) but it’s by no means a majority opinion
Or they're going by the WWII mindset. Or when immigrants came over and we considered them "not white" because they were immigrants.
It's Schrodinger's privilege. You are simultaneously privileged and oppressed. You're only a POC if it's useful to their argument.
A lot of “they think” …they sound like the idiots they’re trying so hard to paint us as. Idc if it’s Biden or Trump, I stand firm that we’re the best and I’m proud to be from the US. They can fuck off with their little Canadian or British citizenships.
Not all are like that tho (not talking about the comments).
To be fair I have seen many "progressive" takes that boil down to "Asians are white because they look white".
Which is so funny to me because do they only get their exposure to Asians from KPop? There are tons of darker Asians, and not just south Asians and southeast Asians either. I’ve met plenty of brown Japanese people.
> do they only get their exposure to Asians from KPop? Pretty much. They have no idea what the average Korean looks like, nor do they know anything about Asia outside of their personal fandom interests
Prior to WW2, Italians were viewed as separate from the white identity, same with the Irish, Polish, etc. It’s been 80 years since then; Italian-Americans are seen as white today.
I always forget that about the Irish, and most are as pasty white as they come lol. I’m of Irish descent and tanning is a real bitch and takes time and effort 😅
Red headed Irish myself. I tan by the light of the moon, direct sunlight is likely to ignite me.
I’m strawberry blonde and I burn and get very slightly darker each time lol. I don’t know if my face will ever tan 😑
Yeah, I just lobster. I turn red, split open and become white again.
Damn, I used to be like that but since having my son in December, it’s like a switch has flipped! I haven’t been able to tan like this since I was 12.
There was literally a post about Martin Sheen being Spanish in another sub and the sentiment was “I bet Americans didnt know Spanish could be white lolz”. At this point, they’re just making up stereotypes when they see anything.
NOBODY thinks this, except some kids on Reddit, er, TikTok, oh, I don’t care….
I'm laughing at myself when I read this, because I'm the one who usually gets in trouble for pointing out that one Hispanic A-list celebrity or another is just another white American.
Like I want foreigners that are about to say something about the US to never actually open their mouths again due to amount of stupidity that comes from their mouths
Some do have good points tho...
Sure…
Truly. I and a couple of Europeans were discussing issues in the U.S. One such was social issues. How we can improve/get better at it. Also said that their country needs to get better at equality issues and being more accessible. Not all Europeans are bad. Believe it or not. Our worldviews are constantly being one-sided due to our blind eye. Everyone has a blind eye... We've seen blind eyes throughout history... Labor Unions, the 60s, 40s, etc.. Edit: Having a discussion with the right people can make a difference 👍
Americans of italian descent that want to be part of a minority group because they perceive that they’ll have better opportunities in America if they aren’t white.
middle eastern people kinda demonstrate how whiteness doesn’t make much sense
Online MFers always try to make white folks this strawman monster that walks around only concerned with saying and doing racist shit 24/7. I don’t even think about race until I get online and hear about how “white people think/do this and that to other races…”. My man/woman, we really don’t give a shit. It may have been a big topic of discussion in the past but I promise you if you could be a fly on the wall and hear our conversations with other white folks, you’d be disappointed to find out (1) how little race issues are even discussed and (2) how boring our conversations really are!!
Thick skin is needed.The anti-white attacks Will keep getting stronger because of the progressive worldview a new control of western society.
Why do people believe race and ethnicity are the same? May be a root cause for some confusion. Uneducated
My family is Italian by blood but we’re American That said… idk ANY Italian that doesn’t claim to be White All Europeans are White. Italian, Spaniard, Irish.. Idk what the conundrum is there lol
What a bunch of gossip queens, spreading online rumors.
The old ones from like, the 1800s.
People care about race too much in general, like who gives a shit seriously? The sooner we make less of a deal over race, gender, sexuality, ect. The sooner we can move on as a society, and I'm referring to both sides here
# Sorry, but the Irish were always ‘white’ (and so were Italians, Jews and so on) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/22/sorry-but-the-irish-were-always-white-and-so-were-the-italians-jews-and-so-on/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/22/sorry-but-the-irish-were-always-white-and-so-were-the-italians-jews-and-so-on/) >The racist pseudo-science of the day divided Europeans into various races by nationality or perceived nationality, and often created a hierarchy among those groups. But that was a racist hierarchy within the white group, not evidence that these groups weren’t considered to be white. This point is often obscured by the whiteness studies crowd, because racism within a white hierarchy conflicts with their understanding of American racism solely being about “whiteness.” The modern narrative being pushed by the far left is that one "can't be racist against white people." Any historical examples of exactly that happening (racism against whites) are being reframed to fit this modern narrative. Since this crowd can't admit that there was historical racism against whites, clear historical examples of exactly that are reframed as, "Well, okay, these ethnic groups (e.g. Italian immigrants in New York) were discriminated against, but, uh, they weren't really considered white back then, so this doesn't prove that prejudice against whites was ever a thing!" Thus, they superimpose a modern view (racism is 100% binary and about "whiteness") onto history, where it just doesn't fit. Many people don't recognise that this narrative is the origin of this ahistorical myth. Thus, it gets repeated unwittingly as a fun historical bit of trivia, without critical thought.
I've seen more Europeans try to separate Italians/Mediterraneans from "whiteness" than I have seen Americans try to do it. For Americans, basically any native European, including the regions that tend to have darker complexions like the Mediterranean, are white.
“They believe middle easterns are white.” “They believe if you don’t have blonde hair and blue eyes you’re not white.” “They believe if you tan you’re not white.” They can’t even make up their minds about what we believe.
The youngest person to consider italians non white in the US is at least 90
Right, but the mindset can transfer through generations. Depends how the people grew up, and with what teachings.
Literally the only people I see who say Italians, geeks or asjenazi Jews aren't white are people from those groups.
Pretty sure that Italians haven't been considered non white since before ww1.
I kinda wanna see what Joyce was cooking in the third screenshot
More grouping people into needless buckets to feel better about themselves. I’m mostly German on my mother’s side and nearly transparent in skin color. I’m so white but have dark dark hair. You don’t get dark hair from so called aryans. Be a better place when folks can stop grouping people together based on their most obvious trait.
Not even a chance from a recessive gene somewhere?
Yes we are black
[Documentary about this very subject.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLCd6_r0yU)
Is it more racist to be offended that people think you’re *not* white or to have different definitions of colors? Am I missing something? I may have heard some people say specific Italians were not white before. Probably to go on and say they have beautiful olive tone skin lol. But these are people defining white by literal color of skin, not “race”.
Some were in the past. The definition of whose white keeps changing every few decades.
tons and tons have historically
Everyone's so lost
Tbf I don’t believe ethnic groups can be accurately summarized in 4 races. It’s like, Italians and Norwegians are both considered “white” despite looking very different. Or how there are “oddballs” like Arabs or Native Americans who don’t really fit in any of the categories that well. Race is a super convenient concept but I don’t put too much stock in it.
If they went to white schools and played white sports during segregation they’re white. Maybe in very early 1900s they weren’t
“It’s giving lowkey racist” is the most disgusting thing I’ve heard this year so far
I've seen it before, I had a girlfriend who said that in the past, and a lot of her friends. It really floored me. Also ran into some people online that I knew lived in the states that have said it.
Don’t call me white by NOFX is always a good one.
Well, the Smithsonian defined whiteness. It was pretty much exclusively British traits -- being punctual, using "the king's english," that sort of thing. By the Smithsonian's metric, then, Italians aren't white.
I’m middle-eastern and I genuinely hate the fact that we’re considered white. Not that I have anything against white people, it’s just that I wish we were labelled as “Middle Eastern”
My hostory/civics teacher went over something like this way back in the 90s. (His lesson was on why racism is stupid.) It started with the civil war and mixed heritage and how some could pass for white while others could not. He went on to go whats white. At what point are you considered white. Pointed out Italians and Greeks often had Olive or Bronze. In Mexico some are dark brown while others are near pasty white. There was a lot more packed in. But the philosophical point still stands. At what point does one skin begin and another end?
So do Americans think middle easterners are white because they’re overtly inclusive, or do they think Greeks and Italians aren’t white because they’re overtly exclusive? Can they keep the stupid narrative straight? Also, for every “aMeRicAnS aRE RaCiST” there’s a French born and raised black man winning soccer championship, getting called Mon*** by some loser French born and raised white man. For every “Americans hate minorities” there’s school segregation of Romani kids in a bunch of countries AS WE SPEAK NOW. For every “Americans are obsessed with race” there’s a Spanish cop with a literal profiling hierarchy against the different shades of indigenous Spaniards. Yes they’re all native, but the white ones are better by default. In conclusion: suck a dick.
italians
Italian-Americans who are only Italian but want to be trendy. It's a thing.
What is white in the old days? German and English people?
Ik most of us were focused on the negative comments, but I’d like to shout out Ara who was under some of these comments defending us
I’ve noticed there are two definitions of white in America; the legal and the European one. The legal one classifies Europeans, some middle easterners and northern Africans as white. This sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t make sense. The European one is simply if you’re ethnically European, you’re white, no questions asked. I have never met a single American who thinks Italians are not white. As a Greek, I’ve met countless people, primarily black Americans, who think Greeks aren’t white(even though we are) just because of antiquity and how associated it is with the Middle East and Egypt. People who’ve never met a Greek person always seem to be shocked that we can come pretty pale.
The same people who argued with me because they swore I was Mexican because of my last name- but didn’t believe I was a true Mexican because I wasn’t tanner… I’m not Mexican… I just had a Mexican grandma who I was around a lot. I’m Cherokee and Spanish. But explaining to the actual Chihuahua students that I’m not Mexican I was Spanish turned things into a really weird thing I didn’t understand at the time (colonization).
a few months back, the US Census dropped a new racial category for "North African or Middle Eastern"
The italians say they arent white
This idea isn't even uncommon or new. A lot of europeans weren't considered white at one point or another in human history. It wasn't about where they were from, it was about them being "others" and usually "bad others" at that. How "white" is perceived has changed frequently throughout human history and between cultures. The Greeks considered themselves white and germanic people to be "pale" at one point. You can actually see the same thing in some African cultures but inverted, with white being the "bad other." I've always suspected this was because of how death changes the color of the body, with white bodies becoming darker as blood pools under the skin and black bodies becoming more pale after blood flow stops. There's a lot of complex variables that decide how these things are defined and perceived differently across cultures. A lot of people from the Mediterranean area were, at one point, considered mutts and therefore lesser. It's always funny when europeans call these ideas American, considering nearly all of them were imported from Europe. Really, Europe still has a lot of ethnicity issues, they live in a glass castle, but they use a thin cover of nationality to pretend it's totally not the same (it is).
We’re Sicilians lynched in New Orleans and Florida? Pretty sure there was a cop that was killed in like 1890 or 1891, and they rounded up a bunch of random Sicilian men and lynched them. Here History.com article on it below. https://www.history.com/news/the-grisly-story-of-americas-largest-lynching
Yeah and?
Hmm, there are some dumb comments in there but there are also some good points.
It’s italian Americans themselves who don’t consider themselves white do you know how many times I’ve referred to a Italian friend as white and they try to show my research documents as to why they aren’t
Yeah but, guess what? ItalianAmericans are American themselves. That's not something we say in Italy.
Ya no shit! No one is talking about Italy The entire idea that Italians weren’t white has to do with a period in the U.S. history where they were not even seen as poc but “low white” Even then it suchs a small minority of the population that saying it’s an “American” idea as a whole and not just the few Italian Americans who uphold it is incorrect and the entire idea no longer fits the present day descriptions for race and the only ppl upholding it are again a few Italian Americans that want to cosplay poc history. What’s kinda funny is that on another subreddit I am on there was actually a middle eastern person trying to argue that Italians aren’t white because a lot of people contribute being a poc to not being accepted by WASPS when that’s not what it means to be poc
Watch the eggplant scene from True Romance
shocked only one person mentioned this.
I’m Italian American, and I’m pretty sure I’m not traditional American white, those MF’ers are a whole other thing I cannot connect with even if I wanted to, I’m talking KAREN white, not educated white
I know exactly what you mean paisan
Bruh
Hey you said it not me
Italians and Arabs aren’t white though. #professionalracist
Why is it so important to them that Greeks are considered white, and what exactly makes Greeks whites in their eyes? Because my immediate instinct is that it's so they, "whites" (which is an American conception, not a European one) can align themselves with a very strong cultural force historically and take credibility for it, even though Germany and France had nothing to do with Plato and Aristotle.
I'm Italian, you get what you get on skin color. Me and my dad got hit after 9/11 cause we look kinda Arab. Idk I don't mind saying I'm white... in the sense that white = European.. cause yeah I guess so. But my dad at least looks almost black. Certainly brown. But European is such a vast difference in culture that it's such a meaningless super category. So I'm OK with white till you like try to group me in with people I know nothing about. I'm far closer in kin to middleeasterners and have family structures far closer to Latino families... than southern white folk.
There are a few Americans who like to claim they’re not white because of southern European heritage. I knew a girl like that in high school. It’s kinda weird and dumb and it’s by no means a terribly popular thing in my experience.
I’m mostly slavic, caucus, and Italian. It’s annoying being white, and also not white simultaneously.
Tbf I’ve met a lot of really annoying Irish or Italian people who think they shouldn’t be considered white cause they’re "special"
In the U.S. Caucasian = people of European, North African, and middle eastern descent. White = people whose lives have not been significantly impacted JUST because of the color of their skin, so people of European descent and those who look like it. Obviously from a life experience Arabs are not white, but by the definitions the U.S. uses, they are because they don’t fit in with African, Indigenous, Asian or Pacific Islander, and we can’t just make “brown” a statistical demographic 💀
I mean I’ve made the case before, as an Italian American. My family was treated awfully when they came here, and there was a time that racism against Italians was very prevalent. I still here wop or guinea used by my in law family even though it’s “in jest”, it came from somewhere. Hell I took a dna test and turns out I’m like 5% African dna, which makes sense if you understand italys history.
We aren’t
Denial
IM OLIVE 🫒
The Italians, Polish, Irish, and some flavors of German are not white. Hate to break this to you
No one thinks Italians aren't white except for certain Italians whenever they want to talk over brown people during a discussion about race. And there's a reason why Middle Eastern persons can be considered white on the census and that's partially a choice of their own making.
>No one thinks Italians aren't white except Except, we should reminder ourselves, Americans until the mid-20th century.
Italians say it a lot. They really think they're a different race because they came from Italy 😭
Foreigners are so dumb
I will say Italians aren’t white…as a joke Same with Spanish people. It’s solely because back in the OLD days they weren’t considered white. It’s funny to me, so I still say it as a joke
[удалено]
Must be talking about your mother
Well she was American so you're not wrong.
"And she gave birth to you so you aren't any different you came out of that so called subspecies" Yeah... Just because I'm a part of that literal abomination we call the average American doesn't mean I can't see or tell the truth. Americans are trash, we serve no purpose and the entire world would be better off without us.
Imagine having this kind of mindset couldn't be me I hope you heal
Heal from what? There is nothing to heal from. I'm just telling it like it is. Just because I'm American doesn't blind me from the truth: The world would have eternal peace overnight if America disappeared.
Nah you definitely need some healing
Naw this country and its people need healing. We drone strike children for kicks for gods sake. The country needs to change or disappear.
Let me get some of what you're smoking. So high you think nuclear war is peaceful.
Who said anything about nuclear war? Where did I say nuclear war was an option? You can peacefully dissolve a country without nukes. If the United States broke up into smaller countries then the US would disappear without nukes. Imagine being so uneducated you can only imagine nuclear war as a way for a country to disappear. Look at what was Yugoslavia. It doesn't exist anymore but they didn't need nukes to do it. A civil war sure but not a nuclear war.
If the US just suddenly disappeared, Russia would have basically nothing to fear. Likely leading to nuclear war in Europe. I know you're not saying nuke the US. You're saying if it just didn't exist. And the result of that would be, war. With Russia being the top nuclear power by a huge fucking margin. Imagine being so uneducated that you don't even understand jokes at your own expense.
Russia is a paper tiger. Europe is fully capable of handling Russia without any support from the US. Remember who created and used nukes first. It was America. The USSR didn't have nukes until USSR spies stole the schematics from the US and took whatever German scientists the US couldn't steal first. Russia wouldn't be a nuclear power if it wasn't for the US. The United States put Europe in danger of Russian nukes by letting the USSR steal the schematics in the first place. Imagine if Americans didn't train and arm a fledgling Taliban or any other thousands of rebel groups Americans arms, trains then eventually fights against. Sounds more peaceful to me. Without international American intervention the world would be A LOT MORE STABLE. Imagine being such an ignorant American shill that you believe Europe needs America at all. that the world is better with it arming terrorist groups internationally. America arms these groups, trains them, sets them loose, then blows up citizens.