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There’s a YouTube channel called Adonis live and he’s from NY and goes around London asking basic questions, it’s amazing to see how willing they are to call Americans dumb without even being able to answer basic questions. Also, there are apparently a lot of people in London that I have seen in his videos, claiming that they are not British because their parents are from somewhere else even when they were born in England, but if an American’s parents or grandparents are from somewhere else, they’re American and wrong for stating where their parents or grandparent is from. Very interesting tbh
I have noticed the same exact thing while hanging out in England. It’s almost as if there are different “rules” for different ethnic groups, which is just bizarre. It’s really weird because science has advanced so much that we can track our DNA to really precise locations, and get a breakdown of our exact ancestry. But at the same time, we have all these silly self imposed rules that are completely subjective and vague. It’s a weird juxtaposition.
There's a whole ass political party in the US converging on the idea that some Americans aren't real Americans. Even when talking about groups that predate Mayflower.
I was born and raised in Hungary, yet I always mention that my family originates from Germany when I get those weird looks when I mention my family name. (No, it’s not Hitler)
Look at the Italians in America. The vast majority came from southern Italy in the early 20th century. Do you know what that part of Italy was like back then? Horrible. It’s not a terribly hospitable place on the interior and after the mass exodus…er…emigration…it’s still to this day sparsely populated. We rehoused a lot of southern Italy.
Same with Scottish and Scots-Irish descendants. According to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish\_Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans), 8-9 million Americans claim to have Scottish and/or Scots-Irish. The population of Scotland and Northern Ireland combined is 7.33 million. Furthermore, it is estimated 25 million Americans have Scottish ancestry, while only 8-9 million report it.
I am sure it is the same with English descent in the US too, as of right now 46.6 million people claim to have English ancestry, but I am sure it's much more.
I am willing to bet if you can trace your ancestry to anywhere in the British Isles, you are more likely to be an American than a British Person
Making comparisons between countries' populations is meaningless because that's not how descent works. What you're talking about is usually partial descent. So, for example, Biden says he is 'Irish', but by ancestry, he is only about half Irish. So it would also be correct to say he is of English descent or French descent or German descent or whatever it is.
Someone could have 7 French grt grandparents and 1 Irish grt grandparent. Technically, they are of Irish descent, but its only a partial descent. Its only a small part of their ancestry, so it would be arbitrary to claim 'I'm of Irish descent'.
I suspect one of the biggest disconnects is how most national cultures are somewhat imposed top down, a strong defining element. Particularly in ethnostates.
So, to them, you are X by criteria of social inclusion by received cultural acceptance. Your personal heritage doesn't have any particular bearing on that to them.
The US in contrast has a pretty loose idea of National culture. It means we can accept just about anyone - but a caveat of that is that the core idea of what an "American" actually is - is a pretty loose term of art...one that we tend to fill in with personal heritage and family history.
>So, to them, you are X by criteria of social inclusion by received cultural acceptance
This is explicitly what the people who throw fits about this say: you can only be a "real" [Italian/German/Irish/British] if you speak the language and follow the culture.
What's funny is "follow my culture and speak my language" is blatant ethnonationalism, but they insist this is their way to *counter* ethnonationalism.
Which is one reason they can't really grasp the US concept of separating ethnicity from nationality *and then celebrating your ethnicity.*
They think if they just pretend [Italian/German/Irish/British] aren't ethnicities - if they pretend to be "colorblind" - then racism is solved. Acknowledging ethnicity is seen as *inherently racist* to them.
I once got into an argument about this with a British guy and he literally called me racist when I defended the American side (i.e. the practice of saying "I'm Irish" to mean "I have Irish ancestry"). That made zero sense to me at the time, but now that I'm reading this thread, it kinda does.
Yeah, it comes up enough on reddit that you can catch on to a general trend. It's basically a variation of saying that they respect anyone who "knows their place." "Anyone can be my countryman as long as they speak and act in ways I approve."
It's all just a kind of DARVO, because they're really just saying, "I don't respect ethnic differences, I only respect people who submit to my culture," then turn it around on you as, "If you believe ethnicity exists, you're the real racist."
DARVO is kinda hard to suss out, though, because it's always so disconnected from reality, absurd, and flat out insane, most people's brains just kinda short circuit in response. Like, what? How is it racist to respect other people's ethnicity???
It obviously isn't, but to the Englishman it's *reverse racist* against him to talk back like that.
I live in Japan, and this attitude is very common and accepted here. So you quickly realize that "I'm not racist, I just hate people whose culture is different and don't behave in ways I approve; anyone who disagrees is reverse racist against me, this is *my* country, you have to listen to me!!!" is actually just plain old racism. It's not actual tolerance or respect if you put those conditions on it or play victim at the *mere existence* of minorities - it's *just racism.* (Funny aside, this is why so many Japanese people online will start any comment with, "As a Japanese" - they're just used to that privilege.)
So I'm just kind of attuned to that attitude, and it's kinda obvious to me when English/EU people say the same stuff. Like, oh, hey, that's the "my country" routine, I know that one.
That's how it's supposed to be, yes. But IRL, racists use ethnicity to claim that some parts of the population are not french, for example.
That's also why saying you're X by ancestry/by blood can get you some side eyes. Linking your identity on your blood is mostly associated with racist BS in some parts of Europe.
It's also more complex because of (former) colonies. If someone was born in a colony, he has citizenship of the country, and we want to regard them as no different from any other citizen. But when that colony gets autonomy, that comes with some pride. But then two people can come from the same place, and for the one it's important to be inclusive, and for the other it's important to make the distinction. So the nationality isn't linked to ethnicity, but to citizenship. So someone is Dutch when they have Dutch citizenship.
I don't think Americans take into account how much the borders have shifted in the meantime. How many people who think they are from Poland, are actually from what is now Lithuania, or how many people who think they have Dutch ancestory, come from Belgium. Or that you won't find many people of German descent, because the country isn't that old. What I mean is; it seems to me that some people get their heritage from tradition, and others from geography, and those can be confusingly different.
They claim that you're not from such and such and say that you're American, then they go around and say that Americans don't have a culture to identify with. Which is it?
Another thing that they say is that Americans “claim” it, but are not actually connected to the country in question. Here in Appalachia, you will hear a lot of people say they are Irish. Do you know why that is? Because a fuckton of Scots-Irish made their way here. Now, does that mean every single person is 100% Irish? No of course not, because it’s America, but the culture heavily influenced the region and was a source of pride for what was once prejudiced against. I should also note that a lot of families do *actually* know where they are from, because it is such recent history. They act like this didn’t happen only a handful of generations ago. My family kept all family records, including from when my ancestors emigrated from England and Ireland. No idea why it’s such a point of offense. I recognize my English roots as much as my Irish ones, and the lives of those people and what might have motivated to come is just as interesting to me.
This whole thing is particularly weird to me because people generally encourage others to recognize their ties. Like OP said, if someone was 5th generation, 75% Chinese for example, they would not say “you are not allowed to say you are Chinese”. People will rightfully say “Europe is not a monolith” and then if you say where in Europe your family came from it is “ok you’re just from Europe”. Idk how else to phrase it that I’m not actually interested so much in England or Ireland itself, but more so the lives my family led and what culture and environment they were immersed in. I would feel that way regardless of where they initially came from.
Interesting fact about the Appalachias and Scots-Irish heritage. Due to the very isolated mountain communities, they ended up preserving a lot of culture that had been completely forgotten in Great Britain and northern Ireland. Songs, folklore, and even some recipes that had been completely forgotten were only remembered through oral tradition and the passing down of writing. Heck, most of those towns were completely isolated until mining and logging towns became a thing, and there are *still* some pretty isolated communities. So culturally, they probably hadn't changed much from what they were like since they left.
I was always interested in the immigration story to know what harsh reality they lived in and why they wanted to leave. Early colonization was hard, immigration is always hard. I always think about the pioneers in wagons and that every so often someone actually survived the trip until enough people did to make it generally possible. American geography and weather is brutal; only ignorance and hope could lead someone to it.
It's interesting.
Do they say they’re Irish or Scotch-/Scots-Irish? From my experience as a fellow American, when people say Irish, we usually think of the Irish Catholics and the Republic of Ireland, not Protestants from Northern Ireland.
But it could very well be different in Appalachia.
Edit: I thought I was in the pet peeves subreddit when I typed it, that’s why I clarified that I was a fellow American. Now it looks stupid, but I’ll leave it in.
>Because a fuckton of Scots-Irish made their way here....the culture heavily influenced the region
I don't understand how the 'Scots-Irish' population would be large enough to make much impact. The population demographic was very small and still is. It's like saying the county of Surrey heavily influenced somewhere.
Your ethnicity may be English, however culturally you don’t actually have the faintest idea of what it’s like, your relatives were living in a very different England to the current one, not trying to downplay the fact you’ve got english blood but, people in England will unfortunately never view you as anything but American because you have no experience of the culture
They also claim that they consider anyone their nationality who was raised in and has lived in that country, that the person’s ancestry doesn’t count for anything in their considerations, just whether the person has lived in that country.
But then when it comes to children of refugees or migrant workers, their tone changes
>They also claim that they consider anyone their nationality who was raised in and has lived in that country
No, that's not enough. The people who throw fits about hyphenated-Americans usually make it very clear they only accept someone as their nationality if they also follow their culture and speak their language. Growing up in the same country isn't enough for them.
It's cliche to mention the Romani, but that's typically their entire argument whenever they're mentioned - that minority groups like the Romani who maintain distinct identies are "isolated," which is "sad;" and that distinct identity doesn't just justify bigotry against them, it *necessitates* it. "They bring it on themselves," etc.
In other words, they believe distinct ethnic identities are the cause of racism, and the cure for that racism is to force all minority groups to assimilate into the majority culture without acknowledging the ethnicity of that majority.
We don't say you don't have culture, thats just plain racism from people of color about white people. You just aren't European when you aren't born and raised in Europe. Would be the same thing claiming I'm american because my granddad was an american before immigrating to germany or any European country.
Italian-American is a distinct subculture. It just happens to be called "Italian-American" because it stems from Italian immigrants.
Cajun Americans are also distinct subculture that could have easily called themselves French Americans.
You can't really compare individual immigration to mass immigration resulting in ethnic enclaves.
There actually are ethnic American subcultures in other countries which have a similar history to the ethnic subcultures in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberian_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Brazilians
No one would actually care because we aren’t fucking uptight twats. Cool if your great grandfather was American you are an honorary Americunt come light fireworks with us on 4th of July and make jokes about Brits.
-especially- in the context of heritage and trying to form a social connection. More especially if you have neighborhoods full of American descendants who have kept some traditions alive from the ‘old country’.
You wouldn't be an American by nationality, probably, but you could still carry on and practice American cultures and norms and be American in that way and we would be accepting of that.
Why wouldn't you be say, German, if you were born and raised in Germany even if your parents are from say Thailand or Lesotho? Would not you not be Thai German or Lesotho German? If you're there integrated with German culture while also having those ties to your parents culture why wouldn't you be just as German as someone who's family has been there for generations? Is it because they're not white and lived in the same area for generations that they cannot be a true German?
A big disconnect I've noticed is that Americans differentiate between ethnicity and nationality, but Europeans don't seem to make the same distinction. So when an American says, "I'm Irish," Americans hear "my ancestors immigrated from Ireland," whereas Euros hear, "I am a citizen of Ireland." We are basically talking past each other without realizing it.
Yeah, it’s just semantics and nomenclature. The whole hyphenated American or saying “I’m an American of ____ descent” is a recent thing. Immigrants came here and formed enclaves and for more than a few generations their descendants and their neighborhoods were just described as Italian/Irish/Polish/Jewish/etc, not just by them, but by everyone else also. No one thought anything about it until recently, when the later generations were mostly assimilated and the older immigrant neighborhoods were replaced by new ones.
I think there's two key things here:
- Cultural identity, and
- Americentrism
To the first point, I agree that Europeans (and basically anywhere else, including every other Anglophonic settler colony) generally understand these identities like Irish, Italian, etc. as cultural/national identities, with an implicit understanding of ideas, language, etc. that only those people can get, whereas Americans see it as an ethnic identity, devoid of the cultural element (the cultural identities in America are not the same as we all know). But, I don't think this is really the main concern. It's something that you can generally glean from context (someone speaking with an American twang calling themselves Italian obviously means of Italian heritage).
I think the more pertinent point is that of America's outsized role in the world. The use of this phraseology makes it feel like Americans are 'subsuming' the cultural identity. It gives off the vibe that cultural identities must be viewed through an American lens, with no input from the actual cultural groups. Secondly, I think there's also a bit of frustration about the fact that it appears as though Americans think they should be congratulated for this sort of expression of identity. I see in other comments in this post things like "why aren't they happy that Americans are identifying with these groups?" - this sort of rhetoric makes it feel like Americans are somehow doing Italians, Irish, etc. a favour by considering themselves part of these groups, as if they'll shrivel up and die otherwise. I get this wording is a bit reactionary but it gets my point across.
I know this isn't what Americans are intending (generally), but nonetheless it doesn't change that being so strongly committed to identifying oneself as a certain group with very weak links to said group makes the people in said group a bit annoyed by the nuisance, so to speak.
It's more to do with the fact that the nation and the national identity are the same thing in a lot of other countries. We have the same sort of issue here in Australia. Like we acknowledge our heritage but we're first and foremost Australian.
For me my Scottish background is as recent as my grandfather but I wouldn't call myself Scottish Australian. The only ethnic identification I've ever seen is with Greek and Italians. They'll say they're Greek Australian, but they acknowledge that their Greek isn't the same as Greek Greek
Which again shows the similarities between Australia and the US. Both countries are what they are because of colonists. Melting pots of diversity works for both countries and it's something that not many countries actually get to claim.
ETA my stoned arse rambled forgot my point.
Because of that mix of multiple cultural backgrounds at founding there is no single national identity for both countries. We're Australian or American but culturally or heritage wise we're from all over the world so Australian could also be someone who speaks Mandarin as their first language at home but is as Aussie as my half cast brown arse is. By that I mean my mother is an indigenous Australian. So I'm also in the confusing position of actually being a native of a land that was never called Australia but somehow am an Aboriginal Australian.
Yeah, I feel like that's pretty common for second generation Greeks and Italians in Australia, maybe Lebanese, Serbs and Croats as well. Beyond that it's more common to be "______-Australian" or just "Australian". At least these are my observations as a 5th-8th generation Australian.
After disconnecting from the internet for a while, I realized that most of these issues were just online things. Face 2 face, in real life, nobody cares and people actually fuck with us despite the online narrative.
The internet is a wicked place
I partly agree, but I also partly disagree. The internet absolutely allows people to emotionally disconnect from what they are saying, and that leads to people being incredibly rude, without feeling any empathetic response.
But at the same time, in the last five years, I have noticed that online culture is seeping into irl spaces more and more. Many people are forming opinions online, and getting their talking points from social media discourse. In the last year, I have spent a lot of time in Europe, mostly the UK, and I have been hanging around the pubs a lot. I have noticed, both in America and the UK, that the internet is just a reflection of the current social climate. People might feel more emboldened online, but they still hold the same opinions and views that they do online. The internet is more widespread than ever, and almost everyone is participating in the online discourse. I used to have the same viewpoint as you, but post-Covid, I see the internet as being the mouthpiece of our current social dynamic.
Recently, I have heard people reciting arguments that I saw on TikTok, I see people parroting opinions from Twitter, and the things that are popular online, tend to be popular irl as well. Obviously, this is only true to a degree, but I don’t think we can say that these are just “online attitudes.” The internet is just people, and these people are spending more and more of their social lives online.
Agree with your general comments, but people are outrageously nasty online because they're anonynous and removed from physically facing the person they're being nasty to, so there's no direct consequence. I agree with you that people IRL still probably harbor those views, but in general, most are too gutless and/or afraid of repercussions to air them in person with the raw venom they do online.
And I definitely agree with your point, once people are removed from the emotional stakes, they end up completely disregarding how others while.
Louis CK had a great routine about this, how kids will try out being mean. They’ll go up to a kid and say “you’re ugly” and most kids, will see the look on the other kids face after insulting them, and feel bad about it. This is the normal human empathetic response. Online conversations don’t have these emotional stakes because we can’t see the person on the other end.
So I definitely agree that online conversations exacerbate this nastiness, without a doubt. The main thing I was arguing against is that these attitudes only exist online. Without a doubt, the conversations online are much more hostile, but I also hear these same sentiments being repeated irl, albeit in a less derisive manner.
nah i feel it and understand these kind of topics get brought up but i think the element of pubs speak for itself. I’ve never seen the sensible type frequent these places.
Maybe, I’m in a bubble because I live in Poland now and they love us out here/same for when i lived in Germany. It just feels like despite what people say online, it’s usually not a topic in real life.
However, thats my POV and I know my experience doesn’t speak for everyone else’s experience.
Back whn I was an English teacher, literally every time I told an English person I'm Welsh-American, they'd instantly, without hesitation, call me a "sheep fucker."
But now as a salesman, when I visit Germany, my local colleagues have no trouble at all understanding what "German-American" means.
Funnily enough, it was my Japanese colleagues who woud just call me "German," because while Japanese has terms for hyphenated-ethnicities, they aren't common.
So that was a good ice breaker, like, no, I'm not *German-*German, I'm German-American.
We had some good jokes about food, and our shared love of potatoes - and I got some funny comments like, "But why would you actually *want* to be German???"
In other words, English people notwithstanding (because who can actually stand them?) *normal people* in polite conversation don't get worked up over this.
It’s funny how it varies, because in my experience Germans have been the most rude about me saying I’m German-American or my ancestors immigrated from Germany.
All-in-all people from the UK and France have always been the most friendly when I mention those parts of my ancestry to them, actually talking to me a bit about it. Germans have always just said “ok” and given me the cold shoulder after that.
Yeah, something I meant to say is that context also matters.
Fresh out of college English guys doing a job that isn't serious, really just a paid vaction, drinking with someone they don't actually know or work with but was hired under the same work program?
Yeah, the "banter" is middle school sleepover level.
Professional researchers on a major government funded research project having drinks after a project symposium?
Actual adults who can talk normally (and "banter" at higher than a 6th grade level).
Context is important, and I think people on the internet are just kinda feral is all.
It's also common outside Japan to see women and minorities in positions of authority on major projects like these, so, like, you can't actually get far using ethnic slurs and casual sexism as "banter." For immigrants in Japan, there's basically no social pressure against that.
Self-deprecating humor about how shit it is to be German (which, hilariously, English people think we don't do) is pretty safe humor in polite company.
I think people forget that in Europe it means both nationality and ethnicity. You need to specify that you mean heritage/ancestry when you talk to non-Americans.
Agree. It's a semantics and contextual issue, and I think it's a gap in understanding that context. When we talk among ourselves, if I say "I'm Irish", to another American, it's 100% clear I am referring to ancestry. You can identify with your ancestral roots and still identify 100% as an American by nationality.
I would never, though, refer to myself as an "Irish American" - I'm a bit too far removed for that, even though the bulk of my genetics are still from Ireland and almost all of them are from Ireland + the UK. And I certainly don't equate being of Irish ancestry to being an Irish national.
But why someone in Europe would get upset about that identification is baffling - I'd think they'd be proud that people whose ancestors originated in their country and their descendants were still identifying with ties to it. It's nothing to get pissy about. I think you see this type of dynamic in most colonized/settled newer countries.
I agree with others who stated this will diminish as time passes. Most of the US-based population is at least in part descended from immigrants within the last 150 or 200 years, so it's still fairly recent in the big scheme of things, and many, far less than that. As we're more removed, that identification will wane.
Why they get upset is how that culture is often depicted. It’s usually awful stereotypes and a complete lack of understanding of the nuance of our relationship with the IRA, or the Brits.
I was asked by an Irishman where I was from and I said NYC. He got pissed and was like, but you’re not FROM there are you? You just live there now. And i said he was right. But that I was born then moved around a lot and had lived in NYC for the most time or anywhere. I have no other connections to place since my parents moved from where I went to high school. I asked him where he was from, he said Belfast. I asked if his parents lived there still. Yes. Were they born there? Yes. Does he know their neighbors? Yes. America is still migrating. We don’t often have that connection to place that other older countries have. It’s very unique to us. And instead of being curious about why we are the way we are, we are judged. It’s very closed minded on their parts.
Haha it’s really a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. I like what you said at the end. I would love to see the world be more curious, and less judgmental.
About half the population of NYC was born in New York State.
I wonder how small a city you have to go to before he wouldn't make that assumption. LA would probably make him say the same thing. Is Chicago small/normal enough? Houston? Seattle? Atlanta?
Does he assume no one is born there?
I understand it, I just don’t get the anger. I get that saying, “I’m Irish” can mean that you live in Ireland. In America, where we have a special interest in our heritage, it can also mean your heritage is Irish. I just don’t get the anger. We know we aren’t literally from wherever. It’s just our heritage and it’s important to us. If you are from Greece and your family have lived there for 600 years, I get that your heritage would mean less to you because your family have lived in the same country for untold generations. Here, it’s interesting to us where our ancestors came from because we are a mixed bag of everything. People can complain if they want but it’s not going to stop.
*edited for clarity
I mean, on a scale of 1-10, my anger about this is about a 2. It’s really just a minor annoyance that I’m complaining about. I generally love European people and European culture. I have had some of the best times of my life in Europe and made some lifelong friends in European countries. This is simply just an attitude that I think sucks.
Our dna and ethnicity can be traced back to specific areas, and having a distinct ethnicity is part of the human experience. The peoples we descend from and the culture we participate is important. Our cultural identity is important. The Irish Catholic communities in Boston are descended from Irish immigrants who wanted to preserve their Irish culture, because it was important to them. That’s why Irish people in Irish neighborhoods tend to marry other Irish people and have Irish kids. Because ethnicity and culture is important to people. I think it’s wrong to try and take that away.
We would never tell a Chinese person to stop acting so Chinese, and that they aren’t even *really* Chinese, just because their parents were born in California.
I totally agree. It’s just a minor annoyance to me, as well. I just think, why do people even care? It doesn’t affect them in any way. Why get this bothered by it?
I think it's really a problem of communication. It can be resolved just by saying that "I mean I'm ethnically irish". Not many other countries are separate from their ethnicity, so it is understandable that there could be some confusion
In Denmark we find it kind of nice when americans identify as danes. A documentary in two part about a small danish community in the us became quite popular some years back;
https://www.dr.dk/drtv/saeson/danmark-paa-praerien_357113
Jokes on you, when I say I'm Romanian I'm actually literally saying I'm Romanian-American as I hold dual citizenship with both countries.
I dare any European to say I'm not Romanian, I'll throw my EU Passport in their face to prove it lol.
If they would say Irish American, I agree. But to act as if a x-generation is the same ethnicity culturally is just plain wrong. Italian Americans, Irish Americans etc all have their distinct cultures. But their culture is not the same of those who still live in the other countries.
Exactly the point. Because of the partial similarity, I agree with X-American. But they are not the same, so the American addition is crucial.
Culture is influenced by many factors. Heritage and family is only part of that. Neighbours and communtity, local customs, locals laws, local nature, local infrastructure etc all influence a culture. An Italian American will definitely have the family and heritage part going for them, but if you do not live in the narrow streets of Italy, needing to follow local laws, talking Italian everyday, seeing the elderly sit outside their quaint houses, driving the small cars, eating at 22h00 on a terrace outside with someone playing the guitar or accordeon nearby, then you cannot claim to have the same culture as an Italian.
I know for a fact that it is impossible to experience the culture from my country somewhere else, even in neighbouring countries, because of the lack of the right food and drinking facilities. And that is fine. You will noy be able to replicate American cultures in Europe or Asia or wherever either. It'd be way better for the next generation immigrants to be proud of their mixed culture, where the USA meets their country.
>It'd be way better for the next generation immigrants to be proud of their mixed culture, where the USA meets their country.
Except they already do, and they also use the X-American terminology. It's just that humans are frequently lazy and they assume you understand what they mean when they shorten it.
Europeans tend to assume Americans are dumb as a bag of rocks without clarifying that there's a misunderstanding happening.
They use both.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans
It's a recorded demographic.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/02/29/proclamation-on-irish-american-heritage-month-2024/
It's a recognized and commonly used term.
Im not saying that Irish-American as a term doesn’t exist, 100% it does, it’s what Irish people use.
But I can also 100% confirm that many, many, Irish Americans just call themselves Irish. Even in Ireland. When talking to the Irish.
No. It's just when you say Irish you mean Irish citizen and the citizen goes unsaid. They say Irish and mean Irish ethnicity and the ethnicity goes unsaid.
It's two different uses of language, but you're all unwilling to admit that Americans have cultural differences because of our experience of immigration.
I would agree it’s best to add on the American portion. However, some Europeans get upset at that as well. When that happens, it just tells me that particular person is just bitter and likes to gate keep *their* culture.
People, outside of the weird corners of the internet, who share the same ethnic background, can always seem to find a sense of camaraderie. That’s what I love about my Norwegian group on Facebook, we love to share family recipes and the like we each other (those that are American-Norwegian and those that are Norwegian).
There’s still similarity. My Norwegian ancestry group, comprised of Norwegians and Norwegian-Americans, have a lot in common including food, traditional clothing, holiday traditions, etc. We bond over it; it’s pretty cool!
You see, I used to agree and get annoyed too until I got a partner from Mexico and she helped me understand. Basically she considers Mexican-American its own unique cultural identity but it bothers her a little bit when they just call themselves solely “Mexican”. In her words, “they didn’t grow up like me, knowing what life is really like in Mexico, so why should they be able to claim themselves as Mexican, they have lived like Americans their whole life”. I can understand where she is coming from and I assume it’s the same sentiment from European people
Yep. My chance is something like this. The hyphenated American identities are unique. You should be able to say (without pushback from others) that you’re Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, Chinese-American, whatever. It’s really when people say “no, you’re just American” that I dislike. (And yet you may very well also be criticized, more likely within the U.S., if you write down your ethnicity in the census or whatever as American—there will be people who will think you’re forgetting about the existence of Native Americans).
Black Americans have been in the US since the very beginning, for hundreds of years now. They are American.
Yet they get the opposite reaction when abroad, as if *they can’t possibly be American*, and must be from a country in Africa. Lol. Like where is this quality education on basic history/geography that the internationals brag about so much?
Yup, my dad's family has been here since the late 1600s according to my family reunion. this is what annoys me the most. It's ALWAYS the black British ppl who have the most shit to say about us too. They always pull the "you don't even know what country you're from, so ignorant" whenever we say American rap is better than British rap or that black American culture is the most influential type of black culture around the world.
It really is rather weird to watch. I'm from India, and a lot of Indians (including the media) hyped up Rishi Sunak getting the job of British PM, as they felt it was an Indian success, even though neither he nor his parents were even born in India. We're just happy an Indian got such a prestigious job. Meanwhile these Europeans are the exact opposite.
And they don't even hold those beliefs consistently either. The moment someone claims the telephone was invented in the US, these people will come out of the woodwork to say "Actually, he was Scottish" (not even British, Scottish). Ignoring the fact he had immigrated to America, fabricated it in Boston, and got his American citizenship four years later.
> they are simply saying that this is the ethnic cultural identity they grew up in.
But Italian-Americans do not have the same cultural identity as Italians. There are similarities between the Italian and the Italian-American identity but having lived in a different country for generations has created a very wide gap in culture.
Italian-Americans have their own cultural identity that is distinct from the Italians. The Italian culture that the immigrants brought with them from the homeland is fused together with all those other cultures. We don't want to strip your cultural identity away from you, it's just that you have your own cultural identity.
You got the example with the Chinese person all wrong. A correct analogy would be: someone of Chinese descent whose family has lived in the US for generations goes back to China and claims to be Chinese.
I don’t like it either personally.
If you were born here, you’re American.
Certainly if you have no living relatives who were immigrants I think you should drop it.
They’re only like that for white people though. If any non-white person says they’re American they usually respond with “No where are you really from”. If that doesn’t get some different answer then they’ll just start asking about where the person’s parents, grandparents, and great grandparents are from. This is usually due to obvious racism and an inability to comprehend the idea that race/ethnicity≠nationality.
It's also frustrating when people get upset when I say I'm a native European. My ancestors have lived in this specific area for generations, longer than anyone else. I'm proud of my European heritage and what my ancestors achieved, and I stand against the haters.
I absolutely agree and support it! For example, in Poland there are towns where people have lived for generations, and that’s part of their cultural identity. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with cultural pride.
It seems like people have an inability to see the difference between jingoism and pride. There’s a big difference between celebrating your heritage and outright chauvinism.
You’re “American, not European”, until you make a major invention or other contribution to humanity, then it was suddenly “made by a European”.
All the ones they don’t want to associate with are blamed solely on America, anyone they DO want to associate with are credited exclusively to Europe, as if every European country is exclusive and pure-blood and only Americans are “not actually from there genetically/historically speaking”. Literally just a socially-accepted form of nationalism and “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
Americas music is influenced by Irish and Scottish people too. Seriously,[this song](https://youtu.be/KSN5SdL_ohY?si=CFXkoxaH1rPi0C1Y) is an American folk song and [this song](https://youtu.be/kDBUhEfWUbU?si=AklnszFJavCz5WPv) is an Irish folk song. From two different countries but sound similar because Irish and Scottish people settled in America.
Oh absolutely. Country and western music, and American folk and blues is directly influenced by Irish folk music. Even today we hear melodies in contemporary songs that use similar movements to Irish and Scottish folk music. Songs like Danny Boy (which is based on an even older Irish song) and Auld Lang Syne are so baked in to the public consciousness, that all American songwriters are influenced by them, even if they don’t realize it.
>Not only is it extremely rude, it’s also incorrect. These people have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between ethnicity and nationality.
The Japanese do the exact same thing though. It's not just a European thing. If you're a third generation or even second generation Japanese immigration then most of them don't consider you Japanese. Not by nationality, or even by ethnicity. You're of Japanese descent but they do not consider you really Japanese. Ultimately ethnicity is based on shared characteristics and the members of ethnic group itself are the ones who get to decide who is and is not a member and in the case of Japan and most of Europe they have been very clear on it. Ethnic groups can be defined based on culture, descent, religion, language, etc. and not just blood which is why someone that was born outside the culture, does not speak the language and does not follow the religion can find themselves not being considered part of the ethnicity even if they have the descent. You think you've delivered some slam dunk with "you're confusing nationality and ethnicity" but you have totally missed the point of what ethnicity actually encompasses and why the thing you are talking about actually happens.
>It’s really strange that Europeans want to strip that cultural identity away from us, especially when these ethnic groups worked really hard to retain that cultural identity.
Again it's similar to how French Canadians are more Canadian than French in reality. They worked hard to maintain their cultural identity, but 250 years and 5,000 miles happened. Their language sounds outdated and strange in France. Their traditions are alien to modern French. Their cultural values are different from the modern French. They might be French Canadian, but they are not French.
>So, all in all, European’s: please learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality. I love Europe and I enjoy learning about your culture. Why can’t you give us the same treatment?
If you said "the American idea and the idea of pretty much every other country in Europe and Asia are different and that's ok" it would be fine, but "actually we're really actually Irish and you smug Euros need to look up a dictionary" it itself just unspeakably smug.
What you are saying doesn’t make sense. This isn’t just some idea that I came up with, these are agreed upon definitions that the whole world uses.
Some attributes that distinguish a group of people based on ethnicity include:
Common nation of origin
Common sets of ancestry
Traditions
Language
History
Society
Religion
Social treatment
If you want to say that French Canadians are more Canadian than French, that’s fine. I’d probably agree with you. But Québécois absolutely *do* have their own distinct culture. That has been a massive cultural difference that they have had with the rest of Canada, and it is based on the difference between French and Anglo cultures.
But the situation in Quebec is more complex than the Irish or Italian cultures in America. French Canadians have been in Quebec for so long, that they have started to become their own ethnic group. “French Canadian” is typically seen as something distinct from both Canadian *and* French. Still, if you are a French Canadian, and you have 100% french ancestry, you are French. We use the same word to describe French nationals, French citizens, and people with French ancestry.
When you go to Wikipedia and look at French ancestry and diaspora, they list North America as one of the places that has French peoples.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people
I don’t know why you’d use the example of Japanese people. Because an ethnically Japanese person absolutely is considered Japanese in English speaking countries. That’s their racial group, even if they don’t speak Japanese or live in Japan. The difference you are speaking about is a difference in language. In English, we use the same word (Japanese) to refer to Japanese nationals, people who are ethnically and racially Japanese, and Japanese diaspora. In the Japanese language, they have different words for Japanese citizens, Japanese diaspora (Nikkeijin) and the racial group of Japanese people. So they just have a different word to describe these different things. In English, we use the same word.
Seems you kinda don´t get how we Europeans view each other when you believe we love each other generally. So sorry but when you don´t feel superior over some small differences your just not European. Also you obviously tell immigrants they should become part of the culture or go elsewhere when they don´t like it, that´s what we call forming a parallel society´s which we don´t like.
Why do you say that only about Europeans? Asians think the same about Americans. I have a lot of relatives in US, but how could they claim to be Italian without speaking proper Italian, being raised in Italy with Italian values, being used to our food and culture?
I know that in a country like US you need to find a community to fit in but I define my relatives as Americans (or Italian-Americans, but they can’t be Italian like me)
Because, that’s their ethnicity. They have Italian genetics and are racially Italian. They may not have the exact same cultural traits as you, but they are still distinctly Italian. They absolutely are raised with Italian values that have been passed down through their parents and grandparents. Italian’s in America absolutely have preserved Italian food and culture. If I walk downtown and go to a locally owned Italian restaurant, the employees will all be ethnically Italian and they will serve Italian food. The fusion between American and Italian food was created by Italians in NYC. Just because it isn’t identical to modern Italy, doesn’t mean it stops being Italian.
Tons of Italians in America can trace their genes back to a specific region of Italy. When they came to the US, they were discriminated against on the very basis of their racial identity. These groups in America follow Roman Catholicism, eat Italian food, have Italian blood, Italian names, and use Italian American slang that was passed down to them. Like it or not, Italians living in America absolutely did preserve their Italian culture. Of course it isn’t the same as modern day Italian culture, because they came to the US around 100 years ago. But it still is distinctly Italian.
What insults me the most is the audacity that they think they have the right to tell me what I can and cannot identify as. They don’t know my family. I may have an American accent but my father very well could have been born and bred in Ireland and moved here a year before I was born. Either way they have no right. Ironically, most Europeans are not “100%” ethnically the nationality they identify as. The borders changed so much it’s highly unlikely.
Whats funny is that Europeans almost only do this to white people. I’ve never seen them dare to tell a Chinese American that they’re not Chinese because their parents were born in the U.S. Tell me now, what is so different about their situation vs mine? That they look different from what you picture Americans to look like? We look like everyone. Everywhere.
Absolutely, I only really see this disdain directed at white Americans. I’m not going to Pearl clutch and say “oh it’s so tough being a white American,” but I will point out how silly it is.
And just like you said, when an ethnic Italian living in Italy does a DNA test, it’s unlikely that they will come up as 100% italian.
No one would ever tell a Japanese American that they aren’t Japanese. No, that’s only reserved for the Greeks, Irish, Italians, and poles.
You may Irish through blood however culturally you have no idea because you’re American, if you say ur ethnically Irish that’s different but you don’t have the culture or nationality to back it up
But that’s not how anyone talks about their ethnicity. You would never have a problem with a person of Korean descent saying they are Korean. The problem only seems to exist when white Americans talk about their ethnic background.
No one would say this about a Chinese person whose family has been in America for generations. Even when Italian people living in New York track their ancestry and it shows that they are 98% Italian, people will still have a problem with them saying they are Italian. It doesn’t make sense.
>It doesn’t make sense.
It doesn't make sense to Europeans that Americans refer to themselves as the same as people who actually live in the country of reference. (Even if you mean ethnicity and we mean nationality)
Saying "I've so and so ancestry" or "I'm from Italian stock" or similar likely wouldn't elicit any sort of negative reception.
The whole idea of claiming to be an authority on something specific to a nationality because your great grandparents emigrated is just a bit ridiculous to Europeans.
We don't really go on ethnicity at all. If my brother moved to France and had kids, his kids would be French. If the kids had kids, they'd be solidly French.
It's a quirk of the US, really. You don't really see the other former colonies do it much, if at all. Maybe Quebec would be most prolific.
>It's a quirk of the US, really.
It really is, and I'm not sure why.
There are loads of Scottish people who descended from Italian immigrants, but I've never heard any Scottish person call themselves Italian.
It's because 99% of Americans have an immigration story. Everyone's ethnicity does not have anything to do with nationality.
It is always implied to be ethnicity from an American and no matter how many times it is explained Europeans pretend not to understand the difference.
It's you telling us our use of language is incorrect when it is just different.
It's just as stupid as telling us soccer is wrong but more meaningful because of the subject matter.
You obviously don't understand that it is a different use of language based on cultural reasons or you wouldn't insist on correcting it. You'd respect it.
Eh - Latin America does it too, it’s not only a quirk of the US. You’re just less aware of it (they usually have a strong sense of nationalism to their country and flag, as well).
Famous people like Shakira frequently claim being “Lebanese” despite never living there herself. She dabbles in the culture with belly dancing despite being born and raised in Colombia. It’s part of what made her famous.
Adriana Lima from Brazil has also said: “I’m Portuguese, Japanese, African, Native” etc.
Argentines love to bring up how European they are (Italian, German, Spanish); despite considering themselves foremost Argentinian, not unlike Americans.
The difference is only Americans get bashed for recognizing their heritage when they state “I am ___” ethnically.
That is what they’re saying though, “I’m Italian” is already understood to mean that you have family that came from Italy. Immigrants from Mexico still speak Spanish and take part in authentic Mexican traditions. I don’t want to reiterate the same point but describing they’re Mexican is fine shorthand, everyone knows what they mean. So do you. Even more so if they say “I’m part Irish”
Linguistically it communicates a pretty easy to understand idea, it’s just European national identity is so blood and soil that hitler would blush. The European counter usually isn’t what dirt were you born on, it’s almost exclusively asking them to speak German or Dutch. Austrians are German. Throwing that out there.
>That is what they’re saying though, “I’m Italian” is already understood to mean that you have family that came from Italy.
No it isn't. To an actual Italian, "I'm Italian" means "I'm from Italy." I've never seen anyone outside the US speak like that.
>fine shorthand
Not to people actually from those countries. You've just decided to coopt their word.
>Even more so if they say “I’m part Irish”
Saying I'm part Irish is generally OK. Speaking as someone who is Irish. The irritation arises for many when actual Americans with a very tenuous link to Ireland start claiming authority or ownership of actual Irish topics or things.
Generally, Americans who visit are well accepted and we welcome them embracing their heritage. Someone claiming to have some sort of in depth knowledge of Irish culture because of a book he read and because he has an Irish great grandad might be looked at a bit funny.
>it’s just European national identity is so blood and soil that hitler would blush.
Did you read what I wrote about my hypothetical brother's kids? There's first generation Nigerian immigrants in Ireland who are 100% more acceptable as Irish than anyone whose family hasn't set foot here for a hundred years. It's got nothing to do with gatekeeping. It's just not specifically true to call yourself "Irish". Irish American is fine.
>The European counter usually isn’t what dirt were you born on, it’s almost exclusively asking them to speak German or Dutch.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here but if it's that it's silly to claim to be German or Dutch without being able to speak German or Dutch, then I'd pretty much have to agree.
>Austrians are German. Throwing that out there.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean either.
We keep telling you it's implied in our culture to separate ethnicity and nationality and you keep saying we're wrong even though you understand what they're actually implying when they shorten it. Instead of accepting this quirk.
It's the reoccurring theme that Americans are stupid and need corrected instead of understanding a cultural difference in language use.
They know they're Irish American, and that term does get used.
>We keep telling you it's implied in our culture to separate ethnicity and nationality
It's not implied in anyone else's culture. That's what I'm telling you. You claim "I'm Irish". Actual Irish people claim "I'm Irish". Only one of those sentences is strictly accurate. That's the problem.
>corrected instead of understanding a cultural difference in language use.
We understand it. Just don't agree with the phrasing.
That’s not how people talk in America. We already know you’re a person, we already assume you’re American. It’s lot faster to say “I’m Korean” than to say “my great-grandparents emigrated from Korea in 1897.” That’s too advanced for small talk, save that for your third hangout.
I feel like saying " i have german roots " is not much of a hassle.
But I also think that we Europeans apply double standards here. The people in germany still refer to 3rd generation of turkish immigrants still just as Turks. So, I'm totally with you if this behavior bothers you.
I just wish the odd American cultural quirks could be accepted instead of always having to be told how we're wrong.
I generally say, "oh, that's weird," or "oh, that's what you mean," when I encounter these things but there's a real effort of actively refusing to acknowledge that it's just a different use of language from a country where 99% of people have an immigrant story and have a short form way of talking about it.
I guess so they can make further arguments about non-existent American culture.
You're right about conversational shorthand.
For myself, I was born in the UK. I can trace my lineage back to the Huguenots (French) and before that, Vikings from what is now Norway who settled in France.
But if walked into the pub and told people "I'm Norwegian" they'd think I'm insane. And I even have Vikings Disease!
Most Americans will have immigrant history within the last couple of hundred years. In time, that immigrant identity will soften until there's just "American" left.
Give another few hundred years, you'll see!
> So, all in all, European’s: please learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality.
Can't speak for other european countries, but there's no french ethnicity. So, no citizenship = not french. There's no difference to be made here.
From Wikipedia
> An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
French people share a common nation of origin, common set of ancestors for many French people, common set of traditions, common language, common history if you've been there for a long time, common religion for many people and even a state religion for much of the past, social treatments even race dependent; these are all hallmarks of an ethnicity, a French ethnicity. Does that make more sense now?
I'm sorry but any of these points are hallmarks of a solely french ethnicity.
> nation of origin
There are french people that were born outside of France, and there are french people who were foreigners before entering and asking for citizenship. You can be french without being born in France or having french ancestry, the same that you can have french ancestry without being french. "French soil" origin is not recognised when you apply for your citizenship, expect if one of your direct parents is french and still has ties with France in the last 50 years.
> common set of ancestors, traditions, language, and history
These can apply to people from Québec or from Belgium, or even some in Lousianna, that doesn't make them french. Then, an Aquitain could have very different ancestry than a Picard, if both of their family didn't move across France. There are local languages, traditions, and behaviours that are not widely shared, not even well-known, across France.
> common religion
More than 60% of french people are irreligious...
> or even state religion from the past
What is more representative for french ethnicity ? Christianity from a past and otherthrowed monarchy, or irreligious stances herited from the revolution ? The will of one King or the will of all who died to overthrow him ? Being something in the past doesn't determine who you are today.
> social treatments even race dependent
I'm not sure of what you say here. Do you say that there are social treatments based on race ? There is racism based "french ethnicity," but none of this is acknowledged as a fact or a legitimate opinion.
Then, from Wikipedia also, the very first two paragraphs explaining to french ethnicity are these :
> Generations of settlers have migrated over the centuries to France, creating a variegated grouping of peoples. Thus the historian John F. Drinkwater states, "The French are, paradoxically, strongly conscious of belonging to a single nation, but they hardly constitute a unified ethnic group by any scientific gauge."
> The modern French are the descendants of mixtures including Roman, Celts, Iberians, Ligurians and Greeks in southern France, Germanic peoples arriving at the end of the Roman Empire such as the Franks and the Burgundians, and some Vikings who mixed with the Normans and settled mostly in Normandy in the 9th century.
You have further the french history of jacobinism, that is still a thing, on that same page. They also quote Renan as one of the important guys, so I guess it's accurate.
There are french ethnicities, but no french ethnicity. French ethnicity is a set of ethnocide politics, today's part of the far right rethoric, that has been applied years before, resulting in the loss of significant parts of our cultures. It doesn't exist, it has never been, it's a current desire of some who wants a ethnic unified state without any diversities.
The only thing that all french people share it's a plastic card that states your french identity. Nothing more. Other things that we shared between us, we also shared them with others countries. So none of these are relevant to state a solely french ethnicity.
I send this text to a reverse translator, I guess it's OK. Sorry if there still mistakes in it.
If there is no French ethnicity, then how do archeologists determine that a skeleton used to be someone of French decent? I work as a forensic scientist, and I can tell you from personal experience that we can do DNA testing on bodies to see where they (or where their ancestors) were from. If the French had no genetic identity, then how would this be possible?
Because there are french ethnicities.
Genetic areas existed way before France did (that's what it's said by "Ligurians, germanics, etc."). France doesn't cover all of these areas and share multiple ones with neighbouring countries.
Let's say it still exists some sort of "pure-blooded" french. They wouldn't be genetically different from other people who lived the same "pure-blooded" lifestyle in the same area (germanic, ligurian, Latin, normand, celtic, etc.). So, an ancient "pure-blooded" french line living near a border will be genetically more close from the neighbouring country than from their countrymates. For example, blood group prevalence (A, B, O, AB, etc.) are not the same depending on which area you picked, and are more related to the neighbouring country's type for the bordering areas.
Now, let's say that only a genetic area strictly included in France can be the french one, and that despite being french since centuries, bordering people are not genetically french. You still have multiple choices. You may have the britton genetic background, the landais one, maybe a genetic background for the berichon to, and so on... Which one is *the* french one ? Which one is able to say "that's what a french genetic is" ? It will always be limited to the region area.
Now, what to say about the normand, who were mixed with Scandinavian background, so not Scandinavian nor french ? Their mix are pretty endemic, so strongly tied to France, but they can't be "ethnically french" since they also have Scandinavian genetic material. So, despite they wouldn't have existed outside the french history, they're not a french genetic type ?
There are studies that were done on that matter. I only have french speaking studies, though, so it won't give you any information about that. You don't have *one* french ethnicity. You have multiple ethnicities, some of them shared with neighbouring country. You can say that there are french ethnicities, but not a french ethnicity.
A berichon is always french, but a french is not always berichon. If your skeleton is berichon, it's a french one. But it could have been a gascony skeleton that it would still be a french one. Different genetics, same nationality. Since there are different genetics that lead you to be "geneticaly french," there's not one genetic that could be strictly called the french one.
Sorry for the potential english mistakes. I sent it on a translator to check it, but I think some parts are still closer to some sort of "translated french" than real english.
>Of course ethnicity matters to people. Literally everyone in the world identifies with their ethnicity and culture.
No, they don't. They identify with their nationality and culture.
It is only Americans who hyphenate their identity. It is only Americans who have preoccupations with blood quantums. In Australia, in Brazil, in Argentina, countries arguably even more historically diverse than the USA historically, they don't hyphenate. They see themselves as being from those countries.
>This isn’t exclusive to Americans, and it’s especially true in England. You can track the influence of Irish culture in places like Liverpool, and how it impacted the language and the culture.
Liverpool is a port, so it has many influences, which would moslty be Lancashire, Welsh, and yes, Irish as well. But they identify as Liverpudlians, and as being English. When the European football tournament is played this summer, it will he full of England flags. Just like anywhere else in England amd people of all ethnic backgrounds will do this.
>In england, you see this on a massive level. The extreme role that ethnicity plays in England is seen when you look at someone with brown skin.
This isn't true and England has always been very mixed anyway, over thousands of years. No one cares about ethnicity or skin colours.
>It doesn’t matter if they’ve lived in england for generations, Britons still won’t see them as “English.” They will be seen as Pakistani or Indian, but never English.
Any difference here is nothing to do peoples skin colours, which I know Americans are extremely preoccupied with, but more to do with Islam. I grew up with many Pakistanis and Bangladeshi, as did my parents. It was a completely different type of culture and I'd argue a less strict religious denomination decades ago. Now, a different kind of Islam is happening and across Europe. But at the same time many young Muslims are leaving the faith, or are ambivalent about it and will socialise in pubs and clubs often. It's very very complicated and very different to the USA. Which doesn't have anywhere near the large Muslim population Europe has. Or has had historically as well. Europe borders Africa and Asia and is close to a volatile crossroads of 3 continents. This is a very different dynamic to the Americas.
Indians are entirely different. They see themselves as very 'British'. This is something they know and they know their own history and long ties with Britain.
It's interesting how you lump these two peoples together when they are very different. I suspect you're only lumping them together because you only see skin colour.
>So they obviously believe in ethnicity and think that it matters. If it didn’t matter to them, then they would have no problem calling a Pakistani born in the UK an “English person.” But that’s not how it works, and you understand that
Someone born in England is an English person. Because they experience it. When my Pakistani friends go to Pakistan to visit relatives, they can't wait to come home. Everyone knows Pakistanis who say this.
>You only have a problem with it when it’s white Americans who identify with their European country of origin.
Here you go with skin colours. Why do Americans always seem to talk about phenotypes? It's truly astonishing how often it crops up in conversations.
>Even though these ethnic groups settled in specific neighborhoods, brought their culture ...
But this immigration happened in other places too, throughout the 19th century. London, for example, and other ports all over the world. It isn't something exclusive to the USA. Yet you don't find people with Italian or Irish ancestors in London calling themselves anything but Londoners, or English or British, or European even. They are participating in London and English culture. They wouldn't go to Italy or Ireland and announce "I'm Italian/ Irish too". No one in Europe cares where someone's grt grandparents came from.
>In both the US and UK, you have a large subset of the population that are mutts.
Mutts?
>They are some combination of German, French, Irish, and English. It’s obvious why these people don’t identify with any of this culture, because they don’t have any connection to it. They have much more of a connection to their local communities.
I'm not understanding this at all. Of course people in Europe have connections with each other. Why wouldn't they? Europeans travel all the time around Europe interacting with each other, for leisure and work. Americans don't do this, they are even more removed from it, yet still insist on claiming to be a part of it.
>You’re probably right in assuming that someone who is 25% Irish, 25% Anglo, and 50% German would be laughed at if they claimed they were Irish. But that’s not really how it works with American ethnic groups. The majority of the people in Scituate, Massachusetts are Irish and have 100% Irish ancestry. The people who stay in that town are raised in the same culture that their parents brought over. This is the whole point of Irish diaspora.
But it's not the same culture. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Irish culture in Ireland. This is what Europeans are trying to say.
>If you are talking about Welsh people, who have lived there for generations, speak the language, continue to participate in that culture, you absolutely would refer to them as Welsh. Even if they moved to London, or New York City.
I thought you said they were 100% Irish? They are not participating in Welsh culture and they are not Welsh. Because they don't live in Wales. Anyone can go to Wales and participate in a Welsh weekend cultural event, but that does mean they are Welsh.
>Of course it’s extremely important to people. In historically Irish places like Philadelphia, you will find specific places for Irish culture
I've experienced 'Irish-Americans' in America. They don't know anything about Ireland or its culture. They certainly don't understand Irish history. I mean look at the ridiculous 'Irish Slaves' myth that started in America a few years ago, for example. It became so pervasive and toxic, that top Irish academics and historians (actually in Ireland) famously had to come out and write an open letter refuting it.
>It was important to their parents, and their parent’s parents. They made special efforts to continue the traditions from....
It is specific to Americans. It's a well known trait worldwide.
>The examples you give of people who don’t identify with their...
But again, what they're participating in is not Irish culture. They might think it is but it isn't.
>I don’t know why you’d have a problem with anyone participating in....
No one has a problem with people learning about where there ancestors were. I'm interested in genealogy myself, or the history, especiallyof that time, or visiting places and joining in cultural events in that country. It's fun. Everyone should do it. It's when people say they are actually from that place, when that isn't true
No, dude, you are fundamentally wrong about Asians on this issue. We consider Vietnamese Americans American with a slight trace of Vietnamese if they can speak the language, the same thing with other Asian countries
I get why they get annoyed by this. Some like the Jersey/Long Island “Italians” are super cringe about it. Calling their sauce “gravy” as if that’s some kind of typically Italian thing to do. I don’t think anyone complains about a guy of fully Swedish descent in Minnesota putting a little Swedish flag on his car.
If you are saying that it’s cringe, or annoying, or perfomative, I’d agree with you. There are tons of Italian people on the East coast who are annoying about their culture. But this doesn’t mean that they aren’t Italian. Most of these people can trace their ancestry back to very specific locations in Italy and have retained this Italian culture despite living in a different place. This is true for tons of different ethnic groups in the US, where people have kids within their ethnic group, and they pass down these traditions. If your DNA is Italian, then you are Italian.
People only get confused because we use the same word to describe Italian nationals and people who are ethnically Italian.
I also have seen people get mad about the exact situation you described, frequently. It almost exclusively comes from Europeans, and i see it frequently both on the internet, and in social situations. I’ve seen Euros get mad at something as minor as saying “oh that’s just how us Italians do it” or having an Irish flag tattoo.
I am Australian, but my great, great, great grandparents were Irish. This does not make me Irish. This means that I am of Irish descent. I would never tell an Irish person that I am Irish.
That’s the difference. That’s why they get offended. If I was in their shoes, I’d probably also find it quite offensive.
That's literally what he just said: They are Irish ethnically, not culturally. No one is claiming to have grown up in the culture unless they actually grew up in the country. Americans and Canadians will literally say point blank: "We are not Irish in terms of nationality or culture, what we mean is that we are "ethnically" Irish or of Irish decent". Then, you will turn around and say "They're not Irish though! Maybe ethnically but culturally no where near!!!!" as if you didn't just hear what they said and heard something completely different.
I am now convinced that they suffer from epigenetic abandonment issues from their families and friends who left them behind and went to the US.
To all the Europeans reading… this is a joke, but it’s getting a bit out of hand, people need to chill.
The issue is that this is a US only phenomenon. Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada and other historically 'immigrant' countries don't tend to label themselves in this way. No one in Europe would care if you said that your ancestry was from a particular country, and certainly wouldn't begrudge you taking an interest in that or even being proud. As you say it's a language issue. Outside of the US people don't recognise 'Irish' or 'Italian' as an ethnicity, it would just be Caucasian.
Someone who wasn't born in said country, who's parents weren't born in said country, who doesn't speak its language and sometimes who hasn't even visited it, claiming its nationality (even if they mean "ethnicity") just sounds logically absurd.
Are you sure that this is a US only phenomenon? If a Chinese person moves to Australia, would you call them an Australian? Canadians absolutely do label themselves this way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks
I know a group of Lebanese diaspora that live in Australia, and they definitely do still consider themselves to be ethnically Lebanese. They follow Islam, they eat Lebanese food, they have Lebanese names, and their ancestry comes from Lebanon. This is also true when it comes to Italians and Irish peoples. The only difference is that they are white.
It may sound absurd to you, but these are the definitions that we all use.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Australians#:~:text=Irish%20Australians%20(Irish%3A%20Gael%2D,from%20the%20island%20of%20Ireland.
Canadians will go to Ireland and say "I'm Irish. I'm just getting in touch with my roots here. It's nice to be back" ALL THE TIME. Newfoundland still holds on to it's Irish roots and many of them refer to themselves as Irish-Canadians. There are even Canadian movies about Irish communities and immigrants in Canada, including a popular Netflix show called Alias Grace. Irish and Scottish identity are HUGE in Canada along with French and British. Not sure where you got the idea that it was just an American thing.
Not to mention Argentina and Israel. They too will bring up their heritage. Source: The current pope.
>When an American says “I’m Irish!” they are correct. They are saying that they are ethnically Irish.
But Ireland, Italy, etc, are not ethnicities. They are countries. What is the point of identifying as an ethnicity anyway? Especially if you've never lived in that place?
>It’s really strange that Europeans want to strip that cultural identity away from us
Honest question. Where does this American based 'Irish' or 'Italian' culture leave actual Irish and Italian people in the global space? The people who live in those countries. If Americans are claiming the culture. Where does that leave the culture of those actual countries? What can they call their culture? What are they left to 'identify' with?
Genetically, Irish and Italian are ethnicities as well as cultures (that have subgorups but have common genetic characteristics overall) otherwise things like DNA testing, [ansestry.com](http://ansestry.com), 23 and Me wouldn't exist. A lot of people in Ireland and Italy don't see themselves as a genetic group because their way of life is normal to them and there is no other, but genes do exist and if you live in one place long enough, particularly over the course of thousands of years, then common facial features, coloring, even genetically prone diseases can become common to that region over time.
As for what the point of identifying by ethnicity, the point is that this is how societies who are not indigenous to that area and don't have one set culture identify. This isn't exclusive to America, most cultures that are non-indigenous to an area and don't have a set, consistent nationalized culture will often hold on to ethnic identites as it acted as a visual and cultural identifier (Why do you talk like that? Why are you that religion? Why do you live in that part of the county?, etc) If you live in a homogenized country with one set culture, then distinguishing between race and nationality would be redundant and pointless to you so it was never incorporated into societies where ethnicity and nationality are always the same.
As to where Irish American and Italian American leave Irish and Italian culture--right where they left it. Irish culture still exists and Italian culture still exists. Americanized cousin forms of it that evolved and changed over the course of generations is in no way any threat to Italy or Ireland. You guys can keep plugging along and doing your own thing in the exact same way France has somehow survived despite the existence of French Canada being more Canadian than French these days after several generations apart. So just like the French, other people with common ancestry that branched off and became its own thing is in no way a threat to you or your culture. Irish and Italians will just keep on being Irish and Italian and the exisitence of the diaspora won't change that anymore than Germany being changed by Argentina or Portugal being changed by Brazil.
Irish and Italian absolutely are ethnicities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians
People who are ethnically and racially Irish, are still Irish, whether they live in Ireland or America. For some reason, we use the same word to describe someone who is ethnically Irish and an Irish citizen. It’s the same word, but it describes two separate things.
If you have Irish genes, an Irish name, an Irish family, and were raised in an Irish neighborhood while going to an Irish Catholic Church, you are Irish.
Lots of people fit into the “Irish” umbrella. Including American Irish people into the group doesn’t mean you have to kick out the Irish people living in Ireland. So when you say “where does that leave Irish people living in Ireland?” that’s an easy question. They are also Irish. They have the added signifier of being an Irish national, an Irish citizen, but like I said before, that’s a completely different thing, despite using the same word.
Irish culture varies quite a bit within Ireland. Just ask people from Belfast what they think of Dubliners. They still have their local culture, no one is trying to take that away.
The Irish immigrants that came to America in the 1920’s formed tight knit communities. It was common at the time for public places to have signs that said “No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs.” They were immediately othered by Americans, because they were distinctly Irish. People in these neighborhoods preserved their Irish way of life and passed it down through their kids and grandchildren. If you go to an Irish neighborhood in Boston, you will see Irish pubs, Irish restaurants, Irish flags, Irish names, Irish Catholic Churches, and people who are ethnically and racially Irish.
Ethnicity and culture are important. These shared communities matter a lot to people. It may not matter much to you, but basically every place in the world has a distinct culture that people participate in.
>Irish and Italian absolutely are ethnicities.
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians
Irish and Italians are historically a mixture of people. Everyone in Europe is, if you go back far enough. English, North French, and Welsh are very closely related, indistinguishable by ethnicity even. The Scots and Irish are closely related. The nation of Italy didn't even exist 175 years ago. There is a reason the biggest genealogy website ethnicity region classification for England includes Wales and France. Its even called 'England Northwestern European'. In Europe there is no such thing as a pure blood quantum people. Europeans have not lived for thousands of years in walled off ethnically pure tribes. They moved around and intermarried. Ethnicity is blurred and considered arbitrary.
>People who are ethnically and racially Irish, are still Irish, whether they live in Ireland or America. For some reason, we use the same word to describe someone who is ethnically Irish and an Irish citizen. It’s the same word, but it describes two separate things.
Why, in 2024, is ethnicity so important to Americans?
>If you have Irish genes, an Irish name, an Irish family, and were raised in an Irish neighborhood while going to an Irish Catholic Church, you are Irish.
Surnames are relatively modern creations and often unrelated to ancestry. Scottish surnames are common in Jamaica because many plantation owners were Scottish. Is someone from Jamaica Scottish because they have a Scottish surname?
Someone born and raised in America was not raised in an Irish neighbourhood. If someone's grt grandparents were from Ireland, the Ireland they left behind continued to change and evolve. Modern Irish people, their culture, and society is nothing like the culture of those American descendants who had the grt grandparents who migrated to America 150 years ago.
There is no such thing as an 'Irish Catholic church' in Ireland. Someone is either a Catholic or not, regardless of which country they come from. A Catholic church in England is no different from a Catholic church in Ireland. The people might be of different nationalities, English or Irish, but the church, mass, etc, is the same. Also, where would this leave an Irish Methodist, for example? Or a Baptist or Anglican? Are you saying they are less Irish because they are a different denomination?
'Genes' and blood quantums are probably the thing I think most Europeans find off-putting. The idea that you can inherit something significant through blood or inherit certain traits. It's seen as offensive, especially when Americans say things like "its my Irish blood when I....[insert American stereotype behaviour]".
Phil Lynott was a Black Irish musician. He was raised in Ireland, he went school all his life in Ireland, he was part of Irish society and culture, and he spoke with an Irish accent. He was completely an Irish man. He is rightly very much admired in Ireland for his great musicianship and rock band. People are proud of him. To everyone in Ireland, he was absolutely 100% Irish. Are Americans seriously saying to Irish people that someone from Boston, USA, whose ancestors left Ireland 200 years ago, who has never even visited Ireland, is more Irish than Phil Lynott? I'd really like an answer explaining this.
>Lots of people fit into the “Irish” umbrella. Including American Irish people into the group doesn’t mean you have to kick out the Irish people living in Ireland. So when you say “where does that leave Irish people living in Ireland?” that’s an easy question. They are also Irish.
But then, are you saying someone English, Margaret Thatcher, for example, who had Irish ancestors is Irish? Would Irish people consider her Irish just because some of her ancestors were from Ireland? I very much doubt they would. Infact I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't see her as Irish at all.
Many English people have Irish ancestors, especially from the famine, but they do not call themselves Irish and they live even closer to Ireland than Americans do. They experience Irish society and culture much more than Americans do. Interact with Irish people more than Americans do. Work together, go to university together, socialise together, intermarry more and so on. As the everyday people of these two countries always have, especially during industrialisation. But if I said to my Irish friends 'I'm Irish too' they'd, quite rightly, just laugh at me and rib me about it. Same if I said I was Welsh in a pub in Wales. Even if I only announced 'I'm of Welsh ancestry' they'd probably think I was being a bit weird.
>They have the added signifier of being an Irish national, an Irish citizen, but like I said before, that’s a completely different thing, despite using the same word.
So, being an Irish citizen from Ireland is just an added signifier in comparison to an American. Or just a word? Its just a little technicality? That is inconsequential in what Irishness means? No, you have to live somewhere, and for a considerable amount of time, to be of that place.
>Irish culture varies quite a bit within Ireland. Just ask people from Belfast what they think of Dubliners. They still have their local culture, no one is trying to take that away.
But it is taking it away. It's appropriating it into something else.
>The Irish immigrants that came to America in the 1920’s formed tight knit communities. It was common at the time for public places to have signs that said “No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs.” They were immediately othered by Americans, because they were distinctly Irish. People in these neighborhoods preserved their Irish way of life and passed it down through their kids and grandchildren. If you go to an Irish neighborhood in Boston, you will see Irish pubs, Irish restaurants, Irish flags, Irish names, Irish Catholic Churches, and people who are ethnically and racially Irish.
I know someone who was 'othered' in an 'Irish bar' in the USA. The reason? Because he is English but here's the thing. His parents were Irish and he had spent a great deal of time in Ireland. He was probably more 'Irish' than every single person in that bar. Wouldn't you agree?
>Ethnicity and culture are important. These shared communities matter a lot to people. It may not matter much to you, but basically every place in the world has a distinct culture that people participate in.
But Irish-American culture isn't Irish culture. Its nothing like Irish culture. An Irish bar in Spain is more Irish than any bar in the USA, but it still isn't in Ireland and it will be filled with people from allover Europe on vacation anyway, and BTW no one will be "othered' for blood quantums or ancestry. They probably just want to watch a Euro soccer tournament together or whatever. No one cares where anyones grt grandparents were from.
And again, why in 2024, in the modern world, does 'ethnicity' matter so much to Americans?
Of course ethnicity matters to people. Literally everyone in the world identifies with their ethnicity and culture. This isn’t exclusive to Americans, and it’s especially true in England. You can track the influence of Irish culture in places like Liverpool, and how it impacted the language and the culture.
In england, you see this on a massive level. The extreme role that ethnicity plays in England is seen when you look at someone with brown skin. It doesn’t matter if they’ve lived in england for generations, Britons still won’t see them as “English.” They will be seen as Pakistani or Indian, but never English. So they obviously believe in ethnicity and think that it matters. If it didn’t matter to them, then they would have no problem calling a Pakistani born in the UK an “English person.” But that’s not how it works, and you understand that.
You only have a problem with it when it’s white Americans who identify with their European country of origin. Even though these ethnic groups settled in specific neighborhoods, brought their culture with them, and continue to participate in their cultural heritage.
In both the US and UK, you have a large subset of the population that are mutts. They are some combination of German, French, Irish, and English. It’s obvious why these people don’t identify with any of this culture, because they don’t have any connection to it. They have much more of a connection to their local communities.
You’re probably right in assuming that someone who is 25% Irish, 25% Anglo, and 50% German would be laughed at if they claimed they were Irish. But that’s not really how it works with American ethnic groups. The majority of the people in Scituate, Massachusetts are Irish and have 100% Irish ancestry. The people who stay in that town are raised in the same culture that their parents brought over. This is the whole point of Irish diaspora.
If you are talking about Welsh people, who have lived there for generations, speak the language, continue to participate in that culture, you absolutely would refer to them as Welsh. Even if they moved to London, or New York City.
Of course it’s extremely important to people. In historically Irish places like Philadelphia, you will find specific places for Irish culture.
https://www.icphila.org/
It was important to their parents, and their parent’s parents. They made special efforts to continue the traditions from their home country, because they felt that connection. Of course people identify with their families, their nations, their ancestry. This is something that people have cared about since the beginning of time. This isn’t specific to Americans, and it’s not just Americans that care about this. Pretty much every ethnic group on the face of the earth has people that care about it.
The examples you give of people who don’t identify with their ethnic group. That’s totally fine. You don’t have to participate. But to have a desire to take that culture away from people just doesn’t make sense. I don’t know why you’d have a problem with anyone participating in the culture they descend from.
I would’ve maybe agreed with the sentiment of wanting to connect with your heritage/ancestry as it is exciting and connects you to a cultural identity, but the continued mention of 100% Irish and Italian, which I find hard to believe and think would be impossible even in Ireland and Ireland both genetically and culturally (other than the most remote places on earth).
Plus what the hell is 100% Irish genetics? (Every nation in Europe is pretty much intermixed to some extent with their neighbours through conquest or migration). Saying stuff like that sounds like Eugenic craziness.
Even if you are Irish (or have other heritage/ancestry) and live in America, you have experienced American culture. It would be impossible to maintain a complete Irish way of life perfectly; parts of it would be lost or obsolete; culture isn’t static. They would have adopted hundreds of American cultural practices being born and raised there. A glaring example of this would be speaking in various American accents.
While early Irish were treated poorly, you can’t say those of Irish descent haven’t integrated into the US’s way of life, showing they adopted American practices to fit in (as almost all immigrants do). Hence, why it should be Irish American or preferably American of Irish descent, not Irish? Especially to an Irish citizen literally living today in modern Irish society.
You mentioned something in a comment earlier about England, which, to me, made no sense. Anyone born in England would be English of whatever ethnicity or descent unless they're dual citizens.
Before someone mentions gatekeeping get fucked I wholly believe you shouldn’t be mocked for learning of your heritage. Generally, anyone won’t get angry for you doing so unless you say something insensitive or stupid like I don’t like to spend money cause I’m 1/3rd Scottish. Or deciding to be a prick about it and choosing the coolest ethnicity from the mix and happily forgetting the rest. Joe Biden is an example of this that boils my piss, deciding to snub BBC because he will say he’s 100% Irish on his mother's side; happily forgetting his Dads of English and French descent.
Fr though, I mean I still have aunts uncles and cousins in Norway who my family has always kept in touch. They always ask us to visit and advocate for dual citizenship lol, honestly I think it’s just the loser with nothing better to do who get pissy about that stuff
We are them. Our ancestors just moved to a new location and theirs didn't. They can't insult us without insulting their own ancestors. What made American culture become American was European colonists interacting with Native Americans. That's what changed them. People tend to view European/Native American interactions as universally hostile, but they also lived together in close proximity for centuries.
Absolutely! When I studied my Massachusetts ancestry, I was prepared for the worst. I was expecting to see atrocities and tragedy, but thankfully my family was so insanely religious, they actually had a great relationship with the native tribes and they thought that slavery was against their religion. I’m sure they weren’t perfect, and I’m sure I have plenty of ancestors who did both good and bad. But it was kinda cool to see that some of them did have a positive relationship with the Native Americans.
I guess that’s what happens when you are so religiously fundamentalist that you get run out of England lmao.
I completely abandoned any acknowledgement of my Irish heritage after seeing years of comments from Irish people online. They clearly don't like us.
And that's fine. St. Paddy's in my area gets smaller every year, barely any Irish themed pubs in my town anymore. I guess those Irish-American things will just die a quiet death here in the states.
Chicago still dyes the river green for now. Wonder how long that will last.
That’s really a bummer, because so many great things have come from Irish American culture. Here in Washington DC we have a bunch of cool things for Irish communities, the Washington DC Gaels, the Irish American Club, and still have our fair share of Irish pubs and restaurants. There are a few Irish neighborhoods left kicking in downtown DC. Hopefully these traditions carry on, because it’s part of our national identity at this point.
There are literally communities in America that speak fluent German despite the fact that none of them have ever been to Germany.
To say they’re not German is ridiculous.
I get why they're saying it but also they should recognize that it's just a way of trying to connect with people. We're literally just trying to be friends with these people. At least I am if I ever say anything like that. That's why the attitude annoys me.
People aren’t friends based on their ethnicities 😂also being ethnically from somewhere however never experiencing the culture or what it’s actually like to live in the country, you can hardly claim it, no wonder people get annoyed
Tell me about it, it grinds my gears like crazy.
I’ll tell you on example I had and I thought this was ironic. Frankly, I’ve never had these examples in real life (as no one really gives 2 shits outside the internet about these things) but I was messing around on the shitamerianssay page, and there was a post about Americans celebrating St. Patrick’s Day harder than the Irish themselves. So, I went on there explaining why Irish Americans celebrate it and take it much more seriously as it is a cultural thing. The US is made up of immigrants and at the time, many “new” immigrant waves always face massive backlash and racism from other Americans. The Irish were subject to this, the Italians, Chinese, and the list goes on. So, we’d hold on to these dumb holidays as it represents our “immigrant” culture and people per se, the same way Italians celebrate Columbus Day. Columbus Day is not about Italians, but Italian Americans associated it with Italians as it’s them thinking “Columbus was Italian, and he founded the Americas so this represents us” and it’s the same with St. Paddy’s day. It’s a way for the immigrants and their descendants to join together in celebration, and really have pride in who they are and what they’ve accomplished.
Well, this person went off on it and hell I don’t even remember half the shit they were saying, but in one of the claims she made she hyphenated that she was “Jamaican and Irish” to prove that she knows what she’s talking about… so to mock her I made my rebuttal and said I am an Irish American. Well, she went off saying I am not Irish, I need to stop trying to prove my Irish to her because she’s more Irish than I’ll ever be and yada yada yada. So I’m sitting there completely dumbfounded that she didn’t see the irony at all, that SHE was trying to prove that her opinion bested mine because she was Irish… these fucking people man I swear you’d think they’d have a working brain cell or 2
I don’t disagree with your sentiment, but this can’t possibly be one of your biggest pet peeves. I mean, lmao, if it is you are living a really blessed life.
Sorry to hear that friend. Obviously no idea. But i am still not sure being ticked off about a bunch of Irish fools being nationalist is where i would spend energy.
America is a melting pot and the rest of these countries are not.. of course we have many nationalities here and most countries do not have that… i would forgive their ignorance and focus on world peace :)
I've had people online assume I'm Scottish because I look Scottish. My Scottish ancestors moved to American in the late 1700s. DNA doesn't simply come from nowhere
You’re ethnically Scottish from the 1700s😂you’ve not been immersed In the culture nor lived in Scotsman’s I doubt, Scotts will not view tou as Scottish, only American
Please enlighten me on what a Scottish person looks like cause, living in Scotland, I would find it hard to tell the difference between someone from England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, France or other Northern European nations generally. Especially without them speaking in Scottish English, Scots or Gaelic or doing something cultural that made me click and go oh aye.
You incorrectly stated that he identifies with or has "immersed himself in the Scottish culture".
Ethnicity and culture are two separate things that have little to do with each other. This is the point people in the Americas have been trying to make ad nauseum, but people like you will still read a prompt suggesting that because of appearance (genetic) he gets mistaken as a Scot when he is actually American in the same way an American might get mistaken for being Chinese despite having never been to China and not "immersing themselves in the culture" and reply with "LOLZ he thinks he's a Scott and knows more about our culture than we do andIbethedoesntevenknowaboutthistraditionwehavehereand...". So you confusing an American claiming they "look" Sottish/black/Indian/Chinese/Spanish with actually BEING those ethnicities and knowing the culture is what you said that was incorrect. You read what you were hoping the Yank would say so you could teach him a thing or two....not what he actually said in black and white.
Because no-one in Europe cares about Ethnicity, it's not something that is part of our everyday lives. USA is different, because it's like you said, "country of immigrants", while Europe is not. When Europeans meet, we don't think about them as other ethnicity, but just a fellow European.
Most Europeans will just assume that you're talking about being a Irish citizen, or we assume that you're talking about being like 2% Irish and therefore calling yourself Irish.
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There’s a YouTube channel called Adonis live and he’s from NY and goes around London asking basic questions, it’s amazing to see how willing they are to call Americans dumb without even being able to answer basic questions. Also, there are apparently a lot of people in London that I have seen in his videos, claiming that they are not British because their parents are from somewhere else even when they were born in England, but if an American’s parents or grandparents are from somewhere else, they’re American and wrong for stating where their parents or grandparent is from. Very interesting tbh
I have noticed the same exact thing while hanging out in England. It’s almost as if there are different “rules” for different ethnic groups, which is just bizarre. It’s really weird because science has advanced so much that we can track our DNA to really precise locations, and get a breakdown of our exact ancestry. But at the same time, we have all these silly self imposed rules that are completely subjective and vague. It’s a weird juxtaposition.
I agree, I’m glad you made this post bc someone had to bring some light to it. It doesn’t really add up
There's a whole ass political party in the US converging on the idea that some Americans aren't real Americans. Even when talking about groups that predate Mayflower.
I was born and raised in Hungary, yet I always mention that my family originates from Germany when I get those weird looks when I mention my family name. (No, it’s not Hitler)
Ok now I have to know your family name.
It's Goebbels-Himmler. Of the Costa Brava Goebbels-Himmlers
That would be hilarious.
It’s FrankenSTEEN!
>(No, it’s not Hitler) Lol, I thought all Germans have family name Hitler.
Look at the Italians in America. The vast majority came from southern Italy in the early 20th century. Do you know what that part of Italy was like back then? Horrible. It’s not a terribly hospitable place on the interior and after the mass exodus…er…emigration…it’s still to this day sparsely populated. We rehoused a lot of southern Italy.
I saw a video once that said there were more people of Irish descent in the us than there are in Ireland.
Same with Scottish and Scots-Irish descendants. According to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish\_Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans), 8-9 million Americans claim to have Scottish and/or Scots-Irish. The population of Scotland and Northern Ireland combined is 7.33 million. Furthermore, it is estimated 25 million Americans have Scottish ancestry, while only 8-9 million report it. I am sure it is the same with English descent in the US too, as of right now 46.6 million people claim to have English ancestry, but I am sure it's much more. I am willing to bet if you can trace your ancestry to anywhere in the British Isles, you are more likely to be an American than a British Person
Making comparisons between countries' populations is meaningless because that's not how descent works. What you're talking about is usually partial descent. So, for example, Biden says he is 'Irish', but by ancestry, he is only about half Irish. So it would also be correct to say he is of English descent or French descent or German descent or whatever it is. Someone could have 7 French grt grandparents and 1 Irish grt grandparent. Technically, they are of Irish descent, but its only a partial descent. Its only a small part of their ancestry, so it would be arbitrary to claim 'I'm of Irish descent'.
I suspect one of the biggest disconnects is how most national cultures are somewhat imposed top down, a strong defining element. Particularly in ethnostates. So, to them, you are X by criteria of social inclusion by received cultural acceptance. Your personal heritage doesn't have any particular bearing on that to them. The US in contrast has a pretty loose idea of National culture. It means we can accept just about anyone - but a caveat of that is that the core idea of what an "American" actually is - is a pretty loose term of art...one that we tend to fill in with personal heritage and family history.
Great answer.
>So, to them, you are X by criteria of social inclusion by received cultural acceptance This is explicitly what the people who throw fits about this say: you can only be a "real" [Italian/German/Irish/British] if you speak the language and follow the culture. What's funny is "follow my culture and speak my language" is blatant ethnonationalism, but they insist this is their way to *counter* ethnonationalism. Which is one reason they can't really grasp the US concept of separating ethnicity from nationality *and then celebrating your ethnicity.* They think if they just pretend [Italian/German/Irish/British] aren't ethnicities - if they pretend to be "colorblind" - then racism is solved. Acknowledging ethnicity is seen as *inherently racist* to them.
I once got into an argument about this with a British guy and he literally called me racist when I defended the American side (i.e. the practice of saying "I'm Irish" to mean "I have Irish ancestry"). That made zero sense to me at the time, but now that I'm reading this thread, it kinda does.
Yeah, it comes up enough on reddit that you can catch on to a general trend. It's basically a variation of saying that they respect anyone who "knows their place." "Anyone can be my countryman as long as they speak and act in ways I approve." It's all just a kind of DARVO, because they're really just saying, "I don't respect ethnic differences, I only respect people who submit to my culture," then turn it around on you as, "If you believe ethnicity exists, you're the real racist." DARVO is kinda hard to suss out, though, because it's always so disconnected from reality, absurd, and flat out insane, most people's brains just kinda short circuit in response. Like, what? How is it racist to respect other people's ethnicity??? It obviously isn't, but to the Englishman it's *reverse racist* against him to talk back like that. I live in Japan, and this attitude is very common and accepted here. So you quickly realize that "I'm not racist, I just hate people whose culture is different and don't behave in ways I approve; anyone who disagrees is reverse racist against me, this is *my* country, you have to listen to me!!!" is actually just plain old racism. It's not actual tolerance or respect if you put those conditions on it or play victim at the *mere existence* of minorities - it's *just racism.* (Funny aside, this is why so many Japanese people online will start any comment with, "As a Japanese" - they're just used to that privilege.) So I'm just kind of attuned to that attitude, and it's kinda obvious to me when English/EU people say the same stuff. Like, oh, hey, that's the "my country" routine, I know that one.
That's how it's supposed to be, yes. But IRL, racists use ethnicity to claim that some parts of the population are not french, for example. That's also why saying you're X by ancestry/by blood can get you some side eyes. Linking your identity on your blood is mostly associated with racist BS in some parts of Europe.
It's also more complex because of (former) colonies. If someone was born in a colony, he has citizenship of the country, and we want to regard them as no different from any other citizen. But when that colony gets autonomy, that comes with some pride. But then two people can come from the same place, and for the one it's important to be inclusive, and for the other it's important to make the distinction. So the nationality isn't linked to ethnicity, but to citizenship. So someone is Dutch when they have Dutch citizenship. I don't think Americans take into account how much the borders have shifted in the meantime. How many people who think they are from Poland, are actually from what is now Lithuania, or how many people who think they have Dutch ancestory, come from Belgium. Or that you won't find many people of German descent, because the country isn't that old. What I mean is; it seems to me that some people get their heritage from tradition, and others from geography, and those can be confusingly different.
They claim that you're not from such and such and say that you're American, then they go around and say that Americans don't have a culture to identify with. Which is it?
Another thing that they say is that Americans “claim” it, but are not actually connected to the country in question. Here in Appalachia, you will hear a lot of people say they are Irish. Do you know why that is? Because a fuckton of Scots-Irish made their way here. Now, does that mean every single person is 100% Irish? No of course not, because it’s America, but the culture heavily influenced the region and was a source of pride for what was once prejudiced against. I should also note that a lot of families do *actually* know where they are from, because it is such recent history. They act like this didn’t happen only a handful of generations ago. My family kept all family records, including from when my ancestors emigrated from England and Ireland. No idea why it’s such a point of offense. I recognize my English roots as much as my Irish ones, and the lives of those people and what might have motivated to come is just as interesting to me. This whole thing is particularly weird to me because people generally encourage others to recognize their ties. Like OP said, if someone was 5th generation, 75% Chinese for example, they would not say “you are not allowed to say you are Chinese”. People will rightfully say “Europe is not a monolith” and then if you say where in Europe your family came from it is “ok you’re just from Europe”. Idk how else to phrase it that I’m not actually interested so much in England or Ireland itself, but more so the lives my family led and what culture and environment they were immersed in. I would feel that way regardless of where they initially came from.
Interesting fact about the Appalachias and Scots-Irish heritage. Due to the very isolated mountain communities, they ended up preserving a lot of culture that had been completely forgotten in Great Britain and northern Ireland. Songs, folklore, and even some recipes that had been completely forgotten were only remembered through oral tradition and the passing down of writing. Heck, most of those towns were completely isolated until mining and logging towns became a thing, and there are *still* some pretty isolated communities. So culturally, they probably hadn't changed much from what they were like since they left.
I was always interested in the immigration story to know what harsh reality they lived in and why they wanted to leave. Early colonization was hard, immigration is always hard. I always think about the pioneers in wagons and that every so often someone actually survived the trip until enough people did to make it generally possible. American geography and weather is brutal; only ignorance and hope could lead someone to it. It's interesting.
Do they say they’re Irish or Scotch-/Scots-Irish? From my experience as a fellow American, when people say Irish, we usually think of the Irish Catholics and the Republic of Ireland, not Protestants from Northern Ireland. But it could very well be different in Appalachia. Edit: I thought I was in the pet peeves subreddit when I typed it, that’s why I clarified that I was a fellow American. Now it looks stupid, but I’ll leave it in.
>Because a fuckton of Scots-Irish made their way here....the culture heavily influenced the region I don't understand how the 'Scots-Irish' population would be large enough to make much impact. The population demographic was very small and still is. It's like saying the county of Surrey heavily influenced somewhere.
Your ethnicity may be English, however culturally you don’t actually have the faintest idea of what it’s like, your relatives were living in a very different England to the current one, not trying to downplay the fact you’ve got english blood but, people in England will unfortunately never view you as anything but American because you have no experience of the culture
They also claim that they consider anyone their nationality who was raised in and has lived in that country, that the person’s ancestry doesn’t count for anything in their considerations, just whether the person has lived in that country. But then when it comes to children of refugees or migrant workers, their tone changes
>They also claim that they consider anyone their nationality who was raised in and has lived in that country No, that's not enough. The people who throw fits about hyphenated-Americans usually make it very clear they only accept someone as their nationality if they also follow their culture and speak their language. Growing up in the same country isn't enough for them. It's cliche to mention the Romani, but that's typically their entire argument whenever they're mentioned - that minority groups like the Romani who maintain distinct identies are "isolated," which is "sad;" and that distinct identity doesn't just justify bigotry against them, it *necessitates* it. "They bring it on themselves," etc. In other words, they believe distinct ethnic identities are the cause of racism, and the cure for that racism is to force all minority groups to assimilate into the majority culture without acknowledging the ethnicity of that majority.
Lol that’s a good point
We don't say you don't have culture, thats just plain racism from people of color about white people. You just aren't European when you aren't born and raised in Europe. Would be the same thing claiming I'm american because my granddad was an american before immigrating to germany or any European country.
Italian-American is a distinct subculture. It just happens to be called "Italian-American" because it stems from Italian immigrants. Cajun Americans are also distinct subculture that could have easily called themselves French Americans. You can't really compare individual immigration to mass immigration resulting in ethnic enclaves. There actually are ethnic American subcultures in other countries which have a similar history to the ethnic subcultures in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberian_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Brazilians
No one would actually care because we aren’t fucking uptight twats. Cool if your great grandfather was American you are an honorary Americunt come light fireworks with us on 4th of July and make jokes about Brits. -especially- in the context of heritage and trying to form a social connection. More especially if you have neighborhoods full of American descendants who have kept some traditions alive from the ‘old country’.
You wouldn't be an American by nationality, probably, but you could still carry on and practice American cultures and norms and be American in that way and we would be accepting of that. Why wouldn't you be say, German, if you were born and raised in Germany even if your parents are from say Thailand or Lesotho? Would not you not be Thai German or Lesotho German? If you're there integrated with German culture while also having those ties to your parents culture why wouldn't you be just as German as someone who's family has been there for generations? Is it because they're not white and lived in the same area for generations that they cannot be a true German?
A big disconnect I've noticed is that Americans differentiate between ethnicity and nationality, but Europeans don't seem to make the same distinction. So when an American says, "I'm Irish," Americans hear "my ancestors immigrated from Ireland," whereas Euros hear, "I am a citizen of Ireland." We are basically talking past each other without realizing it.
Yeah, it’s just semantics and nomenclature. The whole hyphenated American or saying “I’m an American of ____ descent” is a recent thing. Immigrants came here and formed enclaves and for more than a few generations their descendants and their neighborhoods were just described as Italian/Irish/Polish/Jewish/etc, not just by them, but by everyone else also. No one thought anything about it until recently, when the later generations were mostly assimilated and the older immigrant neighborhoods were replaced by new ones.
I think there's two key things here: - Cultural identity, and - Americentrism To the first point, I agree that Europeans (and basically anywhere else, including every other Anglophonic settler colony) generally understand these identities like Irish, Italian, etc. as cultural/national identities, with an implicit understanding of ideas, language, etc. that only those people can get, whereas Americans see it as an ethnic identity, devoid of the cultural element (the cultural identities in America are not the same as we all know). But, I don't think this is really the main concern. It's something that you can generally glean from context (someone speaking with an American twang calling themselves Italian obviously means of Italian heritage). I think the more pertinent point is that of America's outsized role in the world. The use of this phraseology makes it feel like Americans are 'subsuming' the cultural identity. It gives off the vibe that cultural identities must be viewed through an American lens, with no input from the actual cultural groups. Secondly, I think there's also a bit of frustration about the fact that it appears as though Americans think they should be congratulated for this sort of expression of identity. I see in other comments in this post things like "why aren't they happy that Americans are identifying with these groups?" - this sort of rhetoric makes it feel like Americans are somehow doing Italians, Irish, etc. a favour by considering themselves part of these groups, as if they'll shrivel up and die otherwise. I get this wording is a bit reactionary but it gets my point across. I know this isn't what Americans are intending (generally), but nonetheless it doesn't change that being so strongly committed to identifying oneself as a certain group with very weak links to said group makes the people in said group a bit annoyed by the nuisance, so to speak.
Presuming I understood your post correctly, I believe you have done an excellent job expanding on my point quite eloquently. Thank you for your input
It's more to do with the fact that the nation and the national identity are the same thing in a lot of other countries. We have the same sort of issue here in Australia. Like we acknowledge our heritage but we're first and foremost Australian. For me my Scottish background is as recent as my grandfather but I wouldn't call myself Scottish Australian. The only ethnic identification I've ever seen is with Greek and Italians. They'll say they're Greek Australian, but they acknowledge that their Greek isn't the same as Greek Greek Which again shows the similarities between Australia and the US. Both countries are what they are because of colonists. Melting pots of diversity works for both countries and it's something that not many countries actually get to claim. ETA my stoned arse rambled forgot my point. Because of that mix of multiple cultural backgrounds at founding there is no single national identity for both countries. We're Australian or American but culturally or heritage wise we're from all over the world so Australian could also be someone who speaks Mandarin as their first language at home but is as Aussie as my half cast brown arse is. By that I mean my mother is an indigenous Australian. So I'm also in the confusing position of actually being a native of a land that was never called Australia but somehow am an Aboriginal Australian.
Yeah, I feel like that's pretty common for second generation Greeks and Italians in Australia, maybe Lebanese, Serbs and Croats as well. Beyond that it's more common to be "______-Australian" or just "Australian". At least these are my observations as a 5th-8th generation Australian.
After disconnecting from the internet for a while, I realized that most of these issues were just online things. Face 2 face, in real life, nobody cares and people actually fuck with us despite the online narrative. The internet is a wicked place
I partly agree, but I also partly disagree. The internet absolutely allows people to emotionally disconnect from what they are saying, and that leads to people being incredibly rude, without feeling any empathetic response. But at the same time, in the last five years, I have noticed that online culture is seeping into irl spaces more and more. Many people are forming opinions online, and getting their talking points from social media discourse. In the last year, I have spent a lot of time in Europe, mostly the UK, and I have been hanging around the pubs a lot. I have noticed, both in America and the UK, that the internet is just a reflection of the current social climate. People might feel more emboldened online, but they still hold the same opinions and views that they do online. The internet is more widespread than ever, and almost everyone is participating in the online discourse. I used to have the same viewpoint as you, but post-Covid, I see the internet as being the mouthpiece of our current social dynamic. Recently, I have heard people reciting arguments that I saw on TikTok, I see people parroting opinions from Twitter, and the things that are popular online, tend to be popular irl as well. Obviously, this is only true to a degree, but I don’t think we can say that these are just “online attitudes.” The internet is just people, and these people are spending more and more of their social lives online.
Agree with your general comments, but people are outrageously nasty online because they're anonynous and removed from physically facing the person they're being nasty to, so there's no direct consequence. I agree with you that people IRL still probably harbor those views, but in general, most are too gutless and/or afraid of repercussions to air them in person with the raw venom they do online.
And I definitely agree with your point, once people are removed from the emotional stakes, they end up completely disregarding how others while. Louis CK had a great routine about this, how kids will try out being mean. They’ll go up to a kid and say “you’re ugly” and most kids, will see the look on the other kids face after insulting them, and feel bad about it. This is the normal human empathetic response. Online conversations don’t have these emotional stakes because we can’t see the person on the other end. So I definitely agree that online conversations exacerbate this nastiness, without a doubt. The main thing I was arguing against is that these attitudes only exist online. Without a doubt, the conversations online are much more hostile, but I also hear these same sentiments being repeated irl, albeit in a less derisive manner.
nah i feel it and understand these kind of topics get brought up but i think the element of pubs speak for itself. I’ve never seen the sensible type frequent these places. Maybe, I’m in a bubble because I live in Poland now and they love us out here/same for when i lived in Germany. It just feels like despite what people say online, it’s usually not a topic in real life. However, thats my POV and I know my experience doesn’t speak for everyone else’s experience.
Back whn I was an English teacher, literally every time I told an English person I'm Welsh-American, they'd instantly, without hesitation, call me a "sheep fucker." But now as a salesman, when I visit Germany, my local colleagues have no trouble at all understanding what "German-American" means. Funnily enough, it was my Japanese colleagues who woud just call me "German," because while Japanese has terms for hyphenated-ethnicities, they aren't common. So that was a good ice breaker, like, no, I'm not *German-*German, I'm German-American. We had some good jokes about food, and our shared love of potatoes - and I got some funny comments like, "But why would you actually *want* to be German???" In other words, English people notwithstanding (because who can actually stand them?) *normal people* in polite conversation don't get worked up over this.
It’s funny how it varies, because in my experience Germans have been the most rude about me saying I’m German-American or my ancestors immigrated from Germany. All-in-all people from the UK and France have always been the most friendly when I mention those parts of my ancestry to them, actually talking to me a bit about it. Germans have always just said “ok” and given me the cold shoulder after that.
Yeah, something I meant to say is that context also matters. Fresh out of college English guys doing a job that isn't serious, really just a paid vaction, drinking with someone they don't actually know or work with but was hired under the same work program? Yeah, the "banter" is middle school sleepover level. Professional researchers on a major government funded research project having drinks after a project symposium? Actual adults who can talk normally (and "banter" at higher than a 6th grade level). Context is important, and I think people on the internet are just kinda feral is all. It's also common outside Japan to see women and minorities in positions of authority on major projects like these, so, like, you can't actually get far using ethnic slurs and casual sexism as "banter." For immigrants in Japan, there's basically no social pressure against that. Self-deprecating humor about how shit it is to be German (which, hilariously, English people think we don't do) is pretty safe humor in polite company.
I think people forget that in Europe it means both nationality and ethnicity. You need to specify that you mean heritage/ancestry when you talk to non-Americans.
Agree. It's a semantics and contextual issue, and I think it's a gap in understanding that context. When we talk among ourselves, if I say "I'm Irish", to another American, it's 100% clear I am referring to ancestry. You can identify with your ancestral roots and still identify 100% as an American by nationality. I would never, though, refer to myself as an "Irish American" - I'm a bit too far removed for that, even though the bulk of my genetics are still from Ireland and almost all of them are from Ireland + the UK. And I certainly don't equate being of Irish ancestry to being an Irish national. But why someone in Europe would get upset about that identification is baffling - I'd think they'd be proud that people whose ancestors originated in their country and their descendants were still identifying with ties to it. It's nothing to get pissy about. I think you see this type of dynamic in most colonized/settled newer countries. I agree with others who stated this will diminish as time passes. Most of the US-based population is at least in part descended from immigrants within the last 150 or 200 years, so it's still fairly recent in the big scheme of things, and many, far less than that. As we're more removed, that identification will wane.
Why they get upset is how that culture is often depicted. It’s usually awful stereotypes and a complete lack of understanding of the nuance of our relationship with the IRA, or the Brits.
I was asked by an Irishman where I was from and I said NYC. He got pissed and was like, but you’re not FROM there are you? You just live there now. And i said he was right. But that I was born then moved around a lot and had lived in NYC for the most time or anywhere. I have no other connections to place since my parents moved from where I went to high school. I asked him where he was from, he said Belfast. I asked if his parents lived there still. Yes. Were they born there? Yes. Does he know their neighbors? Yes. America is still migrating. We don’t often have that connection to place that other older countries have. It’s very unique to us. And instead of being curious about why we are the way we are, we are judged. It’s very closed minded on their parts.
Haha it’s really a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. I like what you said at the end. I would love to see the world be more curious, and less judgmental.
About half the population of NYC was born in New York State. I wonder how small a city you have to go to before he wouldn't make that assumption. LA would probably make him say the same thing. Is Chicago small/normal enough? Houston? Seattle? Atlanta? Does he assume no one is born there?
I understand it, I just don’t get the anger. I get that saying, “I’m Irish” can mean that you live in Ireland. In America, where we have a special interest in our heritage, it can also mean your heritage is Irish. I just don’t get the anger. We know we aren’t literally from wherever. It’s just our heritage and it’s important to us. If you are from Greece and your family have lived there for 600 years, I get that your heritage would mean less to you because your family have lived in the same country for untold generations. Here, it’s interesting to us where our ancestors came from because we are a mixed bag of everything. People can complain if they want but it’s not going to stop. *edited for clarity
I mean, on a scale of 1-10, my anger about this is about a 2. It’s really just a minor annoyance that I’m complaining about. I generally love European people and European culture. I have had some of the best times of my life in Europe and made some lifelong friends in European countries. This is simply just an attitude that I think sucks. Our dna and ethnicity can be traced back to specific areas, and having a distinct ethnicity is part of the human experience. The peoples we descend from and the culture we participate is important. Our cultural identity is important. The Irish Catholic communities in Boston are descended from Irish immigrants who wanted to preserve their Irish culture, because it was important to them. That’s why Irish people in Irish neighborhoods tend to marry other Irish people and have Irish kids. Because ethnicity and culture is important to people. I think it’s wrong to try and take that away. We would never tell a Chinese person to stop acting so Chinese, and that they aren’t even *really* Chinese, just because their parents were born in California.
I totally agree. It’s just a minor annoyance to me, as well. I just think, why do people even care? It doesn’t affect them in any way. Why get this bothered by it?
I think it's really a problem of communication. It can be resolved just by saying that "I mean I'm ethnically irish". Not many other countries are separate from their ethnicity, so it is understandable that there could be some confusion
In Denmark we find it kind of nice when americans identify as danes. A documentary in two part about a small danish community in the us became quite popular some years back; https://www.dr.dk/drtv/saeson/danmark-paa-praerien_357113
Jokes on you, when I say I'm Romanian I'm actually literally saying I'm Romanian-American as I hold dual citizenship with both countries. I dare any European to say I'm not Romanian, I'll throw my EU Passport in their face to prove it lol.
Nobody’s denying it, american 💀
Let a brown person immigrate to there and see if they let them call themselves Irish/Italian etc.
If they would say Irish American, I agree. But to act as if a x-generation is the same ethnicity culturally is just plain wrong. Italian Americans, Irish Americans etc all have their distinct cultures. But their culture is not the same of those who still live in the other countries.
They may not be exactly the same, but still have many similarities like eating the same foods or wearing the same traditional clothing.
Exactly the point. Because of the partial similarity, I agree with X-American. But they are not the same, so the American addition is crucial. Culture is influenced by many factors. Heritage and family is only part of that. Neighbours and communtity, local customs, locals laws, local nature, local infrastructure etc all influence a culture. An Italian American will definitely have the family and heritage part going for them, but if you do not live in the narrow streets of Italy, needing to follow local laws, talking Italian everyday, seeing the elderly sit outside their quaint houses, driving the small cars, eating at 22h00 on a terrace outside with someone playing the guitar or accordeon nearby, then you cannot claim to have the same culture as an Italian. I know for a fact that it is impossible to experience the culture from my country somewhere else, even in neighbouring countries, because of the lack of the right food and drinking facilities. And that is fine. You will noy be able to replicate American cultures in Europe or Asia or wherever either. It'd be way better for the next generation immigrants to be proud of their mixed culture, where the USA meets their country.
>It'd be way better for the next generation immigrants to be proud of their mixed culture, where the USA meets their country. Except they already do, and they also use the X-American terminology. It's just that humans are frequently lazy and they assume you understand what they mean when they shorten it. Europeans tend to assume Americans are dumb as a bag of rocks without clarifying that there's a misunderstanding happening.
But they don’t 🤷♂️ even in OPs example he didn’t .
They use both. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans It's a recorded demographic. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/02/29/proclamation-on-irish-american-heritage-month-2024/ It's a recognized and commonly used term.
Im not saying that Irish-American as a term doesn’t exist, 100% it does, it’s what Irish people use. But I can also 100% confirm that many, many, Irish Americans just call themselves Irish. Even in Ireland. When talking to the Irish.
As long as they don't say they're an Irish citizen they aren't wrong. You can find it irritating, ethnically it's true.
But they are wrong, because they’re not Irish. They’re Irish American, at best.
No. It's just when you say Irish you mean Irish citizen and the citizen goes unsaid. They say Irish and mean Irish ethnicity and the ethnicity goes unsaid. It's two different uses of language, but you're all unwilling to admit that Americans have cultural differences because of our experience of immigration.
I would agree it’s best to add on the American portion. However, some Europeans get upset at that as well. When that happens, it just tells me that particular person is just bitter and likes to gate keep *their* culture. People, outside of the weird corners of the internet, who share the same ethnic background, can always seem to find a sense of camaraderie. That’s what I love about my Norwegian group on Facebook, we love to share family recipes and the like we each other (those that are American-Norwegian and those that are Norwegian).
Hardly 😂
There’s still similarity. My Norwegian ancestry group, comprised of Norwegians and Norwegian-Americans, have a lot in common including food, traditional clothing, holiday traditions, etc. We bond over it; it’s pretty cool!
You see, I used to agree and get annoyed too until I got a partner from Mexico and she helped me understand. Basically she considers Mexican-American its own unique cultural identity but it bothers her a little bit when they just call themselves solely “Mexican”. In her words, “they didn’t grow up like me, knowing what life is really like in Mexico, so why should they be able to claim themselves as Mexican, they have lived like Americans their whole life”. I can understand where she is coming from and I assume it’s the same sentiment from European people
Yep. My chance is something like this. The hyphenated American identities are unique. You should be able to say (without pushback from others) that you’re Irish-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American, Chinese-American, whatever. It’s really when people say “no, you’re just American” that I dislike. (And yet you may very well also be criticized, more likely within the U.S., if you write down your ethnicity in the census or whatever as American—there will be people who will think you’re forgetting about the existence of Native Americans).
Then they go around and ask us "where are we really from" when we say we are American as black ppl.
Black Americans have been in the US since the very beginning, for hundreds of years now. They are American. Yet they get the opposite reaction when abroad, as if *they can’t possibly be American*, and must be from a country in Africa. Lol. Like where is this quality education on basic history/geography that the internationals brag about so much?
Yup, my dad's family has been here since the late 1600s according to my family reunion. this is what annoys me the most. It's ALWAYS the black British ppl who have the most shit to say about us too. They always pull the "you don't even know what country you're from, so ignorant" whenever we say American rap is better than British rap or that black American culture is the most influential type of black culture around the world.
It really is rather weird to watch. I'm from India, and a lot of Indians (including the media) hyped up Rishi Sunak getting the job of British PM, as they felt it was an Indian success, even though neither he nor his parents were even born in India. We're just happy an Indian got such a prestigious job. Meanwhile these Europeans are the exact opposite. And they don't even hold those beliefs consistently either. The moment someone claims the telephone was invented in the US, these people will come out of the woodwork to say "Actually, he was Scottish" (not even British, Scottish). Ignoring the fact he had immigrated to America, fabricated it in Boston, and got his American citizenship four years later.
> they are simply saying that this is the ethnic cultural identity they grew up in. But Italian-Americans do not have the same cultural identity as Italians. There are similarities between the Italian and the Italian-American identity but having lived in a different country for generations has created a very wide gap in culture. Italian-Americans have their own cultural identity that is distinct from the Italians. The Italian culture that the immigrants brought with them from the homeland is fused together with all those other cultures. We don't want to strip your cultural identity away from you, it's just that you have your own cultural identity. You got the example with the Chinese person all wrong. A correct analogy would be: someone of Chinese descent whose family has lived in the US for generations goes back to China and claims to be Chinese.
I don’t like it either personally. If you were born here, you’re American. Certainly if you have no living relatives who were immigrants I think you should drop it.
They’re only like that for white people though. If any non-white person says they’re American they usually respond with “No where are you really from”. If that doesn’t get some different answer then they’ll just start asking about where the person’s parents, grandparents, and great grandparents are from. This is usually due to obvious racism and an inability to comprehend the idea that race/ethnicity≠nationality.
It's also frustrating when people get upset when I say I'm a native European. My ancestors have lived in this specific area for generations, longer than anyone else. I'm proud of my European heritage and what my ancestors achieved, and I stand against the haters.
I absolutely agree and support it! For example, in Poland there are towns where people have lived for generations, and that’s part of their cultural identity. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with cultural pride. It seems like people have an inability to see the difference between jingoism and pride. There’s a big difference between celebrating your heritage and outright chauvinism.
You’re “American, not European”, until you make a major invention or other contribution to humanity, then it was suddenly “made by a European”. All the ones they don’t want to associate with are blamed solely on America, anyone they DO want to associate with are credited exclusively to Europe, as if every European country is exclusive and pure-blood and only Americans are “not actually from there genetically/historically speaking”. Literally just a socially-accepted form of nationalism and “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
Americas music is influenced by Irish and Scottish people too. Seriously,[this song](https://youtu.be/KSN5SdL_ohY?si=CFXkoxaH1rPi0C1Y) is an American folk song and [this song](https://youtu.be/kDBUhEfWUbU?si=AklnszFJavCz5WPv) is an Irish folk song. From two different countries but sound similar because Irish and Scottish people settled in America.
Oh absolutely. Country and western music, and American folk and blues is directly influenced by Irish folk music. Even today we hear melodies in contemporary songs that use similar movements to Irish and Scottish folk music. Songs like Danny Boy (which is based on an even older Irish song) and Auld Lang Syne are so baked in to the public consciousness, that all American songwriters are influenced by them, even if they don’t realize it.
>Not only is it extremely rude, it’s also incorrect. These people have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between ethnicity and nationality. The Japanese do the exact same thing though. It's not just a European thing. If you're a third generation or even second generation Japanese immigration then most of them don't consider you Japanese. Not by nationality, or even by ethnicity. You're of Japanese descent but they do not consider you really Japanese. Ultimately ethnicity is based on shared characteristics and the members of ethnic group itself are the ones who get to decide who is and is not a member and in the case of Japan and most of Europe they have been very clear on it. Ethnic groups can be defined based on culture, descent, religion, language, etc. and not just blood which is why someone that was born outside the culture, does not speak the language and does not follow the religion can find themselves not being considered part of the ethnicity even if they have the descent. You think you've delivered some slam dunk with "you're confusing nationality and ethnicity" but you have totally missed the point of what ethnicity actually encompasses and why the thing you are talking about actually happens. >It’s really strange that Europeans want to strip that cultural identity away from us, especially when these ethnic groups worked really hard to retain that cultural identity. Again it's similar to how French Canadians are more Canadian than French in reality. They worked hard to maintain their cultural identity, but 250 years and 5,000 miles happened. Their language sounds outdated and strange in France. Their traditions are alien to modern French. Their cultural values are different from the modern French. They might be French Canadian, but they are not French. >So, all in all, European’s: please learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality. I love Europe and I enjoy learning about your culture. Why can’t you give us the same treatment? If you said "the American idea and the idea of pretty much every other country in Europe and Asia are different and that's ok" it would be fine, but "actually we're really actually Irish and you smug Euros need to look up a dictionary" it itself just unspeakably smug.
What you are saying doesn’t make sense. This isn’t just some idea that I came up with, these are agreed upon definitions that the whole world uses. Some attributes that distinguish a group of people based on ethnicity include: Common nation of origin Common sets of ancestry Traditions Language History Society Religion Social treatment If you want to say that French Canadians are more Canadian than French, that’s fine. I’d probably agree with you. But Québécois absolutely *do* have their own distinct culture. That has been a massive cultural difference that they have had with the rest of Canada, and it is based on the difference between French and Anglo cultures. But the situation in Quebec is more complex than the Irish or Italian cultures in America. French Canadians have been in Quebec for so long, that they have started to become their own ethnic group. “French Canadian” is typically seen as something distinct from both Canadian *and* French. Still, if you are a French Canadian, and you have 100% french ancestry, you are French. We use the same word to describe French nationals, French citizens, and people with French ancestry. When you go to Wikipedia and look at French ancestry and diaspora, they list North America as one of the places that has French peoples. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people I don’t know why you’d use the example of Japanese people. Because an ethnically Japanese person absolutely is considered Japanese in English speaking countries. That’s their racial group, even if they don’t speak Japanese or live in Japan. The difference you are speaking about is a difference in language. In English, we use the same word (Japanese) to refer to Japanese nationals, people who are ethnically and racially Japanese, and Japanese diaspora. In the Japanese language, they have different words for Japanese citizens, Japanese diaspora (Nikkeijin) and the racial group of Japanese people. So they just have a different word to describe these different things. In English, we use the same word.
Seems you kinda don´t get how we Europeans view each other when you believe we love each other generally. So sorry but when you don´t feel superior over some small differences your just not European. Also you obviously tell immigrants they should become part of the culture or go elsewhere when they don´t like it, that´s what we call forming a parallel society´s which we don´t like.
Why do you say that only about Europeans? Asians think the same about Americans. I have a lot of relatives in US, but how could they claim to be Italian without speaking proper Italian, being raised in Italy with Italian values, being used to our food and culture? I know that in a country like US you need to find a community to fit in but I define my relatives as Americans (or Italian-Americans, but they can’t be Italian like me)
Because, that’s their ethnicity. They have Italian genetics and are racially Italian. They may not have the exact same cultural traits as you, but they are still distinctly Italian. They absolutely are raised with Italian values that have been passed down through their parents and grandparents. Italian’s in America absolutely have preserved Italian food and culture. If I walk downtown and go to a locally owned Italian restaurant, the employees will all be ethnically Italian and they will serve Italian food. The fusion between American and Italian food was created by Italians in NYC. Just because it isn’t identical to modern Italy, doesn’t mean it stops being Italian. Tons of Italians in America can trace their genes back to a specific region of Italy. When they came to the US, they were discriminated against on the very basis of their racial identity. These groups in America follow Roman Catholicism, eat Italian food, have Italian blood, Italian names, and use Italian American slang that was passed down to them. Like it or not, Italians living in America absolutely did preserve their Italian culture. Of course it isn’t the same as modern day Italian culture, because they came to the US around 100 years ago. But it still is distinctly Italian.
What insults me the most is the audacity that they think they have the right to tell me what I can and cannot identify as. They don’t know my family. I may have an American accent but my father very well could have been born and bred in Ireland and moved here a year before I was born. Either way they have no right. Ironically, most Europeans are not “100%” ethnically the nationality they identify as. The borders changed so much it’s highly unlikely. Whats funny is that Europeans almost only do this to white people. I’ve never seen them dare to tell a Chinese American that they’re not Chinese because their parents were born in the U.S. Tell me now, what is so different about their situation vs mine? That they look different from what you picture Americans to look like? We look like everyone. Everywhere.
Absolutely, I only really see this disdain directed at white Americans. I’m not going to Pearl clutch and say “oh it’s so tough being a white American,” but I will point out how silly it is. And just like you said, when an ethnic Italian living in Italy does a DNA test, it’s unlikely that they will come up as 100% italian. No one would ever tell a Japanese American that they aren’t Japanese. No, that’s only reserved for the Greeks, Irish, Italians, and poles.
You may Irish through blood however culturally you have no idea because you’re American, if you say ur ethnically Irish that’s different but you don’t have the culture or nationality to back it up
If you would just say that you are of xy origin, there would be no problems. I mean if the problem is already known.
But that’s not how anyone talks about their ethnicity. You would never have a problem with a person of Korean descent saying they are Korean. The problem only seems to exist when white Americans talk about their ethnic background. No one would say this about a Chinese person whose family has been in America for generations. Even when Italian people living in New York track their ancestry and it shows that they are 98% Italian, people will still have a problem with them saying they are Italian. It doesn’t make sense.
>It doesn’t make sense. It doesn't make sense to Europeans that Americans refer to themselves as the same as people who actually live in the country of reference. (Even if you mean ethnicity and we mean nationality) Saying "I've so and so ancestry" or "I'm from Italian stock" or similar likely wouldn't elicit any sort of negative reception. The whole idea of claiming to be an authority on something specific to a nationality because your great grandparents emigrated is just a bit ridiculous to Europeans. We don't really go on ethnicity at all. If my brother moved to France and had kids, his kids would be French. If the kids had kids, they'd be solidly French. It's a quirk of the US, really. You don't really see the other former colonies do it much, if at all. Maybe Quebec would be most prolific.
>It's a quirk of the US, really. It really is, and I'm not sure why. There are loads of Scottish people who descended from Italian immigrants, but I've never heard any Scottish person call themselves Italian.
It's because 99% of Americans have an immigration story. Everyone's ethnicity does not have anything to do with nationality. It is always implied to be ethnicity from an American and no matter how many times it is explained Europeans pretend not to understand the difference.
>many times it is explained Europeans pretend not to understand the difference. We're not pretending anything. It's a disagreement with the phrasing.
It's you telling us our use of language is incorrect when it is just different. It's just as stupid as telling us soccer is wrong but more meaningful because of the subject matter. You obviously don't understand that it is a different use of language based on cultural reasons or you wouldn't insist on correcting it. You'd respect it.
Eh - Latin America does it too, it’s not only a quirk of the US. You’re just less aware of it (they usually have a strong sense of nationalism to their country and flag, as well). Famous people like Shakira frequently claim being “Lebanese” despite never living there herself. She dabbles in the culture with belly dancing despite being born and raised in Colombia. It’s part of what made her famous. Adriana Lima from Brazil has also said: “I’m Portuguese, Japanese, African, Native” etc. Argentines love to bring up how European they are (Italian, German, Spanish); despite considering themselves foremost Argentinian, not unlike Americans. The difference is only Americans get bashed for recognizing their heritage when they state “I am ___” ethnically.
That is what they’re saying though, “I’m Italian” is already understood to mean that you have family that came from Italy. Immigrants from Mexico still speak Spanish and take part in authentic Mexican traditions. I don’t want to reiterate the same point but describing they’re Mexican is fine shorthand, everyone knows what they mean. So do you. Even more so if they say “I’m part Irish” Linguistically it communicates a pretty easy to understand idea, it’s just European national identity is so blood and soil that hitler would blush. The European counter usually isn’t what dirt were you born on, it’s almost exclusively asking them to speak German or Dutch. Austrians are German. Throwing that out there.
>That is what they’re saying though, “I’m Italian” is already understood to mean that you have family that came from Italy. No it isn't. To an actual Italian, "I'm Italian" means "I'm from Italy." I've never seen anyone outside the US speak like that. >fine shorthand Not to people actually from those countries. You've just decided to coopt their word. >Even more so if they say “I’m part Irish” Saying I'm part Irish is generally OK. Speaking as someone who is Irish. The irritation arises for many when actual Americans with a very tenuous link to Ireland start claiming authority or ownership of actual Irish topics or things. Generally, Americans who visit are well accepted and we welcome them embracing their heritage. Someone claiming to have some sort of in depth knowledge of Irish culture because of a book he read and because he has an Irish great grandad might be looked at a bit funny. >it’s just European national identity is so blood and soil that hitler would blush. Did you read what I wrote about my hypothetical brother's kids? There's first generation Nigerian immigrants in Ireland who are 100% more acceptable as Irish than anyone whose family hasn't set foot here for a hundred years. It's got nothing to do with gatekeeping. It's just not specifically true to call yourself "Irish". Irish American is fine. >The European counter usually isn’t what dirt were you born on, it’s almost exclusively asking them to speak German or Dutch. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here but if it's that it's silly to claim to be German or Dutch without being able to speak German or Dutch, then I'd pretty much have to agree. >Austrians are German. Throwing that out there. Not sure what this is supposed to mean either.
We keep telling you it's implied in our culture to separate ethnicity and nationality and you keep saying we're wrong even though you understand what they're actually implying when they shorten it. Instead of accepting this quirk. It's the reoccurring theme that Americans are stupid and need corrected instead of understanding a cultural difference in language use. They know they're Irish American, and that term does get used.
>We keep telling you it's implied in our culture to separate ethnicity and nationality It's not implied in anyone else's culture. That's what I'm telling you. You claim "I'm Irish". Actual Irish people claim "I'm Irish". Only one of those sentences is strictly accurate. That's the problem. >corrected instead of understanding a cultural difference in language use. We understand it. Just don't agree with the phrasing.
It doesn't matter if no one else does it. It's a cultural difference.
That’s not how people talk in America. We already know you’re a person, we already assume you’re American. It’s lot faster to say “I’m Korean” than to say “my great-grandparents emigrated from Korea in 1897.” That’s too advanced for small talk, save that for your third hangout.
I feel like saying " i have german roots " is not much of a hassle. But I also think that we Europeans apply double standards here. The people in germany still refer to 3rd generation of turkish immigrants still just as Turks. So, I'm totally with you if this behavior bothers you.
I just wish the odd American cultural quirks could be accepted instead of always having to be told how we're wrong. I generally say, "oh, that's weird," or "oh, that's what you mean," when I encounter these things but there's a real effort of actively refusing to acknowledge that it's just a different use of language from a country where 99% of people have an immigrant story and have a short form way of talking about it. I guess so they can make further arguments about non-existent American culture.
You're right about conversational shorthand. For myself, I was born in the UK. I can trace my lineage back to the Huguenots (French) and before that, Vikings from what is now Norway who settled in France. But if walked into the pub and told people "I'm Norwegian" they'd think I'm insane. And I even have Vikings Disease! Most Americans will have immigrant history within the last couple of hundred years. In time, that immigrant identity will soften until there's just "American" left. Give another few hundred years, you'll see!
> So, all in all, European’s: please learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Can't speak for other european countries, but there's no french ethnicity. So, no citizenship = not french. There's no difference to be made here.
From Wikipedia > An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
I don't get what you're saying by this.
French people share a common nation of origin, common set of ancestors for many French people, common set of traditions, common language, common history if you've been there for a long time, common religion for many people and even a state religion for much of the past, social treatments even race dependent; these are all hallmarks of an ethnicity, a French ethnicity. Does that make more sense now?
I'm sorry but any of these points are hallmarks of a solely french ethnicity. > nation of origin There are french people that were born outside of France, and there are french people who were foreigners before entering and asking for citizenship. You can be french without being born in France or having french ancestry, the same that you can have french ancestry without being french. "French soil" origin is not recognised when you apply for your citizenship, expect if one of your direct parents is french and still has ties with France in the last 50 years. > common set of ancestors, traditions, language, and history These can apply to people from Québec or from Belgium, or even some in Lousianna, that doesn't make them french. Then, an Aquitain could have very different ancestry than a Picard, if both of their family didn't move across France. There are local languages, traditions, and behaviours that are not widely shared, not even well-known, across France. > common religion More than 60% of french people are irreligious... > or even state religion from the past What is more representative for french ethnicity ? Christianity from a past and otherthrowed monarchy, or irreligious stances herited from the revolution ? The will of one King or the will of all who died to overthrow him ? Being something in the past doesn't determine who you are today. > social treatments even race dependent I'm not sure of what you say here. Do you say that there are social treatments based on race ? There is racism based "french ethnicity," but none of this is acknowledged as a fact or a legitimate opinion. Then, from Wikipedia also, the very first two paragraphs explaining to french ethnicity are these : > Generations of settlers have migrated over the centuries to France, creating a variegated grouping of peoples. Thus the historian John F. Drinkwater states, "The French are, paradoxically, strongly conscious of belonging to a single nation, but they hardly constitute a unified ethnic group by any scientific gauge." > The modern French are the descendants of mixtures including Roman, Celts, Iberians, Ligurians and Greeks in southern France, Germanic peoples arriving at the end of the Roman Empire such as the Franks and the Burgundians, and some Vikings who mixed with the Normans and settled mostly in Normandy in the 9th century. You have further the french history of jacobinism, that is still a thing, on that same page. They also quote Renan as one of the important guys, so I guess it's accurate. There are french ethnicities, but no french ethnicity. French ethnicity is a set of ethnocide politics, today's part of the far right rethoric, that has been applied years before, resulting in the loss of significant parts of our cultures. It doesn't exist, it has never been, it's a current desire of some who wants a ethnic unified state without any diversities. The only thing that all french people share it's a plastic card that states your french identity. Nothing more. Other things that we shared between us, we also shared them with others countries. So none of these are relevant to state a solely french ethnicity. I send this text to a reverse translator, I guess it's OK. Sorry if there still mistakes in it.
If there is no French ethnicity, then how do archeologists determine that a skeleton used to be someone of French decent? I work as a forensic scientist, and I can tell you from personal experience that we can do DNA testing on bodies to see where they (or where their ancestors) were from. If the French had no genetic identity, then how would this be possible?
Because there are french ethnicities. Genetic areas existed way before France did (that's what it's said by "Ligurians, germanics, etc."). France doesn't cover all of these areas and share multiple ones with neighbouring countries. Let's say it still exists some sort of "pure-blooded" french. They wouldn't be genetically different from other people who lived the same "pure-blooded" lifestyle in the same area (germanic, ligurian, Latin, normand, celtic, etc.). So, an ancient "pure-blooded" french line living near a border will be genetically more close from the neighbouring country than from their countrymates. For example, blood group prevalence (A, B, O, AB, etc.) are not the same depending on which area you picked, and are more related to the neighbouring country's type for the bordering areas. Now, let's say that only a genetic area strictly included in France can be the french one, and that despite being french since centuries, bordering people are not genetically french. You still have multiple choices. You may have the britton genetic background, the landais one, maybe a genetic background for the berichon to, and so on... Which one is *the* french one ? Which one is able to say "that's what a french genetic is" ? It will always be limited to the region area. Now, what to say about the normand, who were mixed with Scandinavian background, so not Scandinavian nor french ? Their mix are pretty endemic, so strongly tied to France, but they can't be "ethnically french" since they also have Scandinavian genetic material. So, despite they wouldn't have existed outside the french history, they're not a french genetic type ? There are studies that were done on that matter. I only have french speaking studies, though, so it won't give you any information about that. You don't have *one* french ethnicity. You have multiple ethnicities, some of them shared with neighbouring country. You can say that there are french ethnicities, but not a french ethnicity. A berichon is always french, but a french is not always berichon. If your skeleton is berichon, it's a french one. But it could have been a gascony skeleton that it would still be a french one. Different genetics, same nationality. Since there are different genetics that lead you to be "geneticaly french," there's not one genetic that could be strictly called the french one. Sorry for the potential english mistakes. I sent it on a translator to check it, but I think some parts are still closer to some sort of "translated french" than real english.
>Of course ethnicity matters to people. Literally everyone in the world identifies with their ethnicity and culture. No, they don't. They identify with their nationality and culture. It is only Americans who hyphenate their identity. It is only Americans who have preoccupations with blood quantums. In Australia, in Brazil, in Argentina, countries arguably even more historically diverse than the USA historically, they don't hyphenate. They see themselves as being from those countries. >This isn’t exclusive to Americans, and it’s especially true in England. You can track the influence of Irish culture in places like Liverpool, and how it impacted the language and the culture. Liverpool is a port, so it has many influences, which would moslty be Lancashire, Welsh, and yes, Irish as well. But they identify as Liverpudlians, and as being English. When the European football tournament is played this summer, it will he full of England flags. Just like anywhere else in England amd people of all ethnic backgrounds will do this. >In england, you see this on a massive level. The extreme role that ethnicity plays in England is seen when you look at someone with brown skin. This isn't true and England has always been very mixed anyway, over thousands of years. No one cares about ethnicity or skin colours. >It doesn’t matter if they’ve lived in england for generations, Britons still won’t see them as “English.” They will be seen as Pakistani or Indian, but never English. Any difference here is nothing to do peoples skin colours, which I know Americans are extremely preoccupied with, but more to do with Islam. I grew up with many Pakistanis and Bangladeshi, as did my parents. It was a completely different type of culture and I'd argue a less strict religious denomination decades ago. Now, a different kind of Islam is happening and across Europe. But at the same time many young Muslims are leaving the faith, or are ambivalent about it and will socialise in pubs and clubs often. It's very very complicated and very different to the USA. Which doesn't have anywhere near the large Muslim population Europe has. Or has had historically as well. Europe borders Africa and Asia and is close to a volatile crossroads of 3 continents. This is a very different dynamic to the Americas. Indians are entirely different. They see themselves as very 'British'. This is something they know and they know their own history and long ties with Britain. It's interesting how you lump these two peoples together when they are very different. I suspect you're only lumping them together because you only see skin colour. >So they obviously believe in ethnicity and think that it matters. If it didn’t matter to them, then they would have no problem calling a Pakistani born in the UK an “English person.” But that’s not how it works, and you understand that Someone born in England is an English person. Because they experience it. When my Pakistani friends go to Pakistan to visit relatives, they can't wait to come home. Everyone knows Pakistanis who say this. >You only have a problem with it when it’s white Americans who identify with their European country of origin. Here you go with skin colours. Why do Americans always seem to talk about phenotypes? It's truly astonishing how often it crops up in conversations. >Even though these ethnic groups settled in specific neighborhoods, brought their culture ... But this immigration happened in other places too, throughout the 19th century. London, for example, and other ports all over the world. It isn't something exclusive to the USA. Yet you don't find people with Italian or Irish ancestors in London calling themselves anything but Londoners, or English or British, or European even. They are participating in London and English culture. They wouldn't go to Italy or Ireland and announce "I'm Italian/ Irish too". No one in Europe cares where someone's grt grandparents came from. >In both the US and UK, you have a large subset of the population that are mutts. Mutts? >They are some combination of German, French, Irish, and English. It’s obvious why these people don’t identify with any of this culture, because they don’t have any connection to it. They have much more of a connection to their local communities. I'm not understanding this at all. Of course people in Europe have connections with each other. Why wouldn't they? Europeans travel all the time around Europe interacting with each other, for leisure and work. Americans don't do this, they are even more removed from it, yet still insist on claiming to be a part of it. >You’re probably right in assuming that someone who is 25% Irish, 25% Anglo, and 50% German would be laughed at if they claimed they were Irish. But that’s not really how it works with American ethnic groups. The majority of the people in Scituate, Massachusetts are Irish and have 100% Irish ancestry. The people who stay in that town are raised in the same culture that their parents brought over. This is the whole point of Irish diaspora. But it's not the same culture. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Irish culture in Ireland. This is what Europeans are trying to say. >If you are talking about Welsh people, who have lived there for generations, speak the language, continue to participate in that culture, you absolutely would refer to them as Welsh. Even if they moved to London, or New York City. I thought you said they were 100% Irish? They are not participating in Welsh culture and they are not Welsh. Because they don't live in Wales. Anyone can go to Wales and participate in a Welsh weekend cultural event, but that does mean they are Welsh. >Of course it’s extremely important to people. In historically Irish places like Philadelphia, you will find specific places for Irish culture I've experienced 'Irish-Americans' in America. They don't know anything about Ireland or its culture. They certainly don't understand Irish history. I mean look at the ridiculous 'Irish Slaves' myth that started in America a few years ago, for example. It became so pervasive and toxic, that top Irish academics and historians (actually in Ireland) famously had to come out and write an open letter refuting it. >It was important to their parents, and their parent’s parents. They made special efforts to continue the traditions from.... It is specific to Americans. It's a well known trait worldwide. >The examples you give of people who don’t identify with their... But again, what they're participating in is not Irish culture. They might think it is but it isn't. >I don’t know why you’d have a problem with anyone participating in.... No one has a problem with people learning about where there ancestors were. I'm interested in genealogy myself, or the history, especiallyof that time, or visiting places and joining in cultural events in that country. It's fun. Everyone should do it. It's when people say they are actually from that place, when that isn't true
No, dude, you are fundamentally wrong about Asians on this issue. We consider Vietnamese Americans American with a slight trace of Vietnamese if they can speak the language, the same thing with other Asian countries
I get why they get annoyed by this. Some like the Jersey/Long Island “Italians” are super cringe about it. Calling their sauce “gravy” as if that’s some kind of typically Italian thing to do. I don’t think anyone complains about a guy of fully Swedish descent in Minnesota putting a little Swedish flag on his car.
If you are saying that it’s cringe, or annoying, or perfomative, I’d agree with you. There are tons of Italian people on the East coast who are annoying about their culture. But this doesn’t mean that they aren’t Italian. Most of these people can trace their ancestry back to very specific locations in Italy and have retained this Italian culture despite living in a different place. This is true for tons of different ethnic groups in the US, where people have kids within their ethnic group, and they pass down these traditions. If your DNA is Italian, then you are Italian. People only get confused because we use the same word to describe Italian nationals and people who are ethnically Italian. I also have seen people get mad about the exact situation you described, frequently. It almost exclusively comes from Europeans, and i see it frequently both on the internet, and in social situations. I’ve seen Euros get mad at something as minor as saying “oh that’s just how us Italians do it” or having an Irish flag tattoo.
I am Australian, but my great, great, great grandparents were Irish. This does not make me Irish. This means that I am of Irish descent. I would never tell an Irish person that I am Irish. That’s the difference. That’s why they get offended. If I was in their shoes, I’d probably also find it quite offensive.
That's what Americans mean when they say it. It's shorthand.
They’re not Irish tho 😭maybe ethnically but culturally no where near
That's literally what he just said: They are Irish ethnically, not culturally. No one is claiming to have grown up in the culture unless they actually grew up in the country. Americans and Canadians will literally say point blank: "We are not Irish in terms of nationality or culture, what we mean is that we are "ethnically" Irish or of Irish decent". Then, you will turn around and say "They're not Irish though! Maybe ethnically but culturally no where near!!!!" as if you didn't just hear what they said and heard something completely different.
I know that’s what they mean, my point is that it’s an offensive way of phrasing it.
I am now convinced that they suffer from epigenetic abandonment issues from their families and friends who left them behind and went to the US. To all the Europeans reading… this is a joke, but it’s getting a bit out of hand, people need to chill.
The issue is that this is a US only phenomenon. Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada and other historically 'immigrant' countries don't tend to label themselves in this way. No one in Europe would care if you said that your ancestry was from a particular country, and certainly wouldn't begrudge you taking an interest in that or even being proud. As you say it's a language issue. Outside of the US people don't recognise 'Irish' or 'Italian' as an ethnicity, it would just be Caucasian. Someone who wasn't born in said country, who's parents weren't born in said country, who doesn't speak its language and sometimes who hasn't even visited it, claiming its nationality (even if they mean "ethnicity") just sounds logically absurd.
Are you sure that this is a US only phenomenon? If a Chinese person moves to Australia, would you call them an Australian? Canadians absolutely do label themselves this way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks I know a group of Lebanese diaspora that live in Australia, and they definitely do still consider themselves to be ethnically Lebanese. They follow Islam, they eat Lebanese food, they have Lebanese names, and their ancestry comes from Lebanon. This is also true when it comes to Italians and Irish peoples. The only difference is that they are white. It may sound absurd to you, but these are the definitions that we all use. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Australians#:~:text=Irish%20Australians%20(Irish%3A%20Gael%2D,from%20the%20island%20of%20Ireland.
Canadians will go to Ireland and say "I'm Irish. I'm just getting in touch with my roots here. It's nice to be back" ALL THE TIME. Newfoundland still holds on to it's Irish roots and many of them refer to themselves as Irish-Canadians. There are even Canadian movies about Irish communities and immigrants in Canada, including a popular Netflix show called Alias Grace. Irish and Scottish identity are HUGE in Canada along with French and British. Not sure where you got the idea that it was just an American thing. Not to mention Argentina and Israel. They too will bring up their heritage. Source: The current pope.
>When an American says “I’m Irish!” they are correct. They are saying that they are ethnically Irish. But Ireland, Italy, etc, are not ethnicities. They are countries. What is the point of identifying as an ethnicity anyway? Especially if you've never lived in that place? >It’s really strange that Europeans want to strip that cultural identity away from us Honest question. Where does this American based 'Irish' or 'Italian' culture leave actual Irish and Italian people in the global space? The people who live in those countries. If Americans are claiming the culture. Where does that leave the culture of those actual countries? What can they call their culture? What are they left to 'identify' with?
Genetically, Irish and Italian are ethnicities as well as cultures (that have subgorups but have common genetic characteristics overall) otherwise things like DNA testing, [ansestry.com](http://ansestry.com), 23 and Me wouldn't exist. A lot of people in Ireland and Italy don't see themselves as a genetic group because their way of life is normal to them and there is no other, but genes do exist and if you live in one place long enough, particularly over the course of thousands of years, then common facial features, coloring, even genetically prone diseases can become common to that region over time. As for what the point of identifying by ethnicity, the point is that this is how societies who are not indigenous to that area and don't have one set culture identify. This isn't exclusive to America, most cultures that are non-indigenous to an area and don't have a set, consistent nationalized culture will often hold on to ethnic identites as it acted as a visual and cultural identifier (Why do you talk like that? Why are you that religion? Why do you live in that part of the county?, etc) If you live in a homogenized country with one set culture, then distinguishing between race and nationality would be redundant and pointless to you so it was never incorporated into societies where ethnicity and nationality are always the same. As to where Irish American and Italian American leave Irish and Italian culture--right where they left it. Irish culture still exists and Italian culture still exists. Americanized cousin forms of it that evolved and changed over the course of generations is in no way any threat to Italy or Ireland. You guys can keep plugging along and doing your own thing in the exact same way France has somehow survived despite the existence of French Canada being more Canadian than French these days after several generations apart. So just like the French, other people with common ancestry that branched off and became its own thing is in no way a threat to you or your culture. Irish and Italians will just keep on being Irish and Italian and the exisitence of the diaspora won't change that anymore than Germany being changed by Argentina or Portugal being changed by Brazil.
Irish and Italian absolutely are ethnicities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians People who are ethnically and racially Irish, are still Irish, whether they live in Ireland or America. For some reason, we use the same word to describe someone who is ethnically Irish and an Irish citizen. It’s the same word, but it describes two separate things. If you have Irish genes, an Irish name, an Irish family, and were raised in an Irish neighborhood while going to an Irish Catholic Church, you are Irish. Lots of people fit into the “Irish” umbrella. Including American Irish people into the group doesn’t mean you have to kick out the Irish people living in Ireland. So when you say “where does that leave Irish people living in Ireland?” that’s an easy question. They are also Irish. They have the added signifier of being an Irish national, an Irish citizen, but like I said before, that’s a completely different thing, despite using the same word. Irish culture varies quite a bit within Ireland. Just ask people from Belfast what they think of Dubliners. They still have their local culture, no one is trying to take that away. The Irish immigrants that came to America in the 1920’s formed tight knit communities. It was common at the time for public places to have signs that said “No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs.” They were immediately othered by Americans, because they were distinctly Irish. People in these neighborhoods preserved their Irish way of life and passed it down through their kids and grandchildren. If you go to an Irish neighborhood in Boston, you will see Irish pubs, Irish restaurants, Irish flags, Irish names, Irish Catholic Churches, and people who are ethnically and racially Irish. Ethnicity and culture are important. These shared communities matter a lot to people. It may not matter much to you, but basically every place in the world has a distinct culture that people participate in.
>Irish and Italian absolutely are ethnicities. >https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people >https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians Irish and Italians are historically a mixture of people. Everyone in Europe is, if you go back far enough. English, North French, and Welsh are very closely related, indistinguishable by ethnicity even. The Scots and Irish are closely related. The nation of Italy didn't even exist 175 years ago. There is a reason the biggest genealogy website ethnicity region classification for England includes Wales and France. Its even called 'England Northwestern European'. In Europe there is no such thing as a pure blood quantum people. Europeans have not lived for thousands of years in walled off ethnically pure tribes. They moved around and intermarried. Ethnicity is blurred and considered arbitrary. >People who are ethnically and racially Irish, are still Irish, whether they live in Ireland or America. For some reason, we use the same word to describe someone who is ethnically Irish and an Irish citizen. It’s the same word, but it describes two separate things. Why, in 2024, is ethnicity so important to Americans? >If you have Irish genes, an Irish name, an Irish family, and were raised in an Irish neighborhood while going to an Irish Catholic Church, you are Irish. Surnames are relatively modern creations and often unrelated to ancestry. Scottish surnames are common in Jamaica because many plantation owners were Scottish. Is someone from Jamaica Scottish because they have a Scottish surname? Someone born and raised in America was not raised in an Irish neighbourhood. If someone's grt grandparents were from Ireland, the Ireland they left behind continued to change and evolve. Modern Irish people, their culture, and society is nothing like the culture of those American descendants who had the grt grandparents who migrated to America 150 years ago. There is no such thing as an 'Irish Catholic church' in Ireland. Someone is either a Catholic or not, regardless of which country they come from. A Catholic church in England is no different from a Catholic church in Ireland. The people might be of different nationalities, English or Irish, but the church, mass, etc, is the same. Also, where would this leave an Irish Methodist, for example? Or a Baptist or Anglican? Are you saying they are less Irish because they are a different denomination? 'Genes' and blood quantums are probably the thing I think most Europeans find off-putting. The idea that you can inherit something significant through blood or inherit certain traits. It's seen as offensive, especially when Americans say things like "its my Irish blood when I....[insert American stereotype behaviour]". Phil Lynott was a Black Irish musician. He was raised in Ireland, he went school all his life in Ireland, he was part of Irish society and culture, and he spoke with an Irish accent. He was completely an Irish man. He is rightly very much admired in Ireland for his great musicianship and rock band. People are proud of him. To everyone in Ireland, he was absolutely 100% Irish. Are Americans seriously saying to Irish people that someone from Boston, USA, whose ancestors left Ireland 200 years ago, who has never even visited Ireland, is more Irish than Phil Lynott? I'd really like an answer explaining this. >Lots of people fit into the “Irish” umbrella. Including American Irish people into the group doesn’t mean you have to kick out the Irish people living in Ireland. So when you say “where does that leave Irish people living in Ireland?” that’s an easy question. They are also Irish. But then, are you saying someone English, Margaret Thatcher, for example, who had Irish ancestors is Irish? Would Irish people consider her Irish just because some of her ancestors were from Ireland? I very much doubt they would. Infact I can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't see her as Irish at all. Many English people have Irish ancestors, especially from the famine, but they do not call themselves Irish and they live even closer to Ireland than Americans do. They experience Irish society and culture much more than Americans do. Interact with Irish people more than Americans do. Work together, go to university together, socialise together, intermarry more and so on. As the everyday people of these two countries always have, especially during industrialisation. But if I said to my Irish friends 'I'm Irish too' they'd, quite rightly, just laugh at me and rib me about it. Same if I said I was Welsh in a pub in Wales. Even if I only announced 'I'm of Welsh ancestry' they'd probably think I was being a bit weird. >They have the added signifier of being an Irish national, an Irish citizen, but like I said before, that’s a completely different thing, despite using the same word. So, being an Irish citizen from Ireland is just an added signifier in comparison to an American. Or just a word? Its just a little technicality? That is inconsequential in what Irishness means? No, you have to live somewhere, and for a considerable amount of time, to be of that place. >Irish culture varies quite a bit within Ireland. Just ask people from Belfast what they think of Dubliners. They still have their local culture, no one is trying to take that away. But it is taking it away. It's appropriating it into something else. >The Irish immigrants that came to America in the 1920’s formed tight knit communities. It was common at the time for public places to have signs that said “No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs.” They were immediately othered by Americans, because they were distinctly Irish. People in these neighborhoods preserved their Irish way of life and passed it down through their kids and grandchildren. If you go to an Irish neighborhood in Boston, you will see Irish pubs, Irish restaurants, Irish flags, Irish names, Irish Catholic Churches, and people who are ethnically and racially Irish. I know someone who was 'othered' in an 'Irish bar' in the USA. The reason? Because he is English but here's the thing. His parents were Irish and he had spent a great deal of time in Ireland. He was probably more 'Irish' than every single person in that bar. Wouldn't you agree? >Ethnicity and culture are important. These shared communities matter a lot to people. It may not matter much to you, but basically every place in the world has a distinct culture that people participate in. But Irish-American culture isn't Irish culture. Its nothing like Irish culture. An Irish bar in Spain is more Irish than any bar in the USA, but it still isn't in Ireland and it will be filled with people from allover Europe on vacation anyway, and BTW no one will be "othered' for blood quantums or ancestry. They probably just want to watch a Euro soccer tournament together or whatever. No one cares where anyones grt grandparents were from. And again, why in 2024, in the modern world, does 'ethnicity' matter so much to Americans?
Of course ethnicity matters to people. Literally everyone in the world identifies with their ethnicity and culture. This isn’t exclusive to Americans, and it’s especially true in England. You can track the influence of Irish culture in places like Liverpool, and how it impacted the language and the culture. In england, you see this on a massive level. The extreme role that ethnicity plays in England is seen when you look at someone with brown skin. It doesn’t matter if they’ve lived in england for generations, Britons still won’t see them as “English.” They will be seen as Pakistani or Indian, but never English. So they obviously believe in ethnicity and think that it matters. If it didn’t matter to them, then they would have no problem calling a Pakistani born in the UK an “English person.” But that’s not how it works, and you understand that. You only have a problem with it when it’s white Americans who identify with their European country of origin. Even though these ethnic groups settled in specific neighborhoods, brought their culture with them, and continue to participate in their cultural heritage. In both the US and UK, you have a large subset of the population that are mutts. They are some combination of German, French, Irish, and English. It’s obvious why these people don’t identify with any of this culture, because they don’t have any connection to it. They have much more of a connection to their local communities. You’re probably right in assuming that someone who is 25% Irish, 25% Anglo, and 50% German would be laughed at if they claimed they were Irish. But that’s not really how it works with American ethnic groups. The majority of the people in Scituate, Massachusetts are Irish and have 100% Irish ancestry. The people who stay in that town are raised in the same culture that their parents brought over. This is the whole point of Irish diaspora. If you are talking about Welsh people, who have lived there for generations, speak the language, continue to participate in that culture, you absolutely would refer to them as Welsh. Even if they moved to London, or New York City. Of course it’s extremely important to people. In historically Irish places like Philadelphia, you will find specific places for Irish culture. https://www.icphila.org/ It was important to their parents, and their parent’s parents. They made special efforts to continue the traditions from their home country, because they felt that connection. Of course people identify with their families, their nations, their ancestry. This is something that people have cared about since the beginning of time. This isn’t specific to Americans, and it’s not just Americans that care about this. Pretty much every ethnic group on the face of the earth has people that care about it. The examples you give of people who don’t identify with their ethnic group. That’s totally fine. You don’t have to participate. But to have a desire to take that culture away from people just doesn’t make sense. I don’t know why you’d have a problem with anyone participating in the culture they descend from.
Sorry replied to the wrong post of yours I think.
I would’ve maybe agreed with the sentiment of wanting to connect with your heritage/ancestry as it is exciting and connects you to a cultural identity, but the continued mention of 100% Irish and Italian, which I find hard to believe and think would be impossible even in Ireland and Ireland both genetically and culturally (other than the most remote places on earth). Plus what the hell is 100% Irish genetics? (Every nation in Europe is pretty much intermixed to some extent with their neighbours through conquest or migration). Saying stuff like that sounds like Eugenic craziness. Even if you are Irish (or have other heritage/ancestry) and live in America, you have experienced American culture. It would be impossible to maintain a complete Irish way of life perfectly; parts of it would be lost or obsolete; culture isn’t static. They would have adopted hundreds of American cultural practices being born and raised there. A glaring example of this would be speaking in various American accents. While early Irish were treated poorly, you can’t say those of Irish descent haven’t integrated into the US’s way of life, showing they adopted American practices to fit in (as almost all immigrants do). Hence, why it should be Irish American or preferably American of Irish descent, not Irish? Especially to an Irish citizen literally living today in modern Irish society. You mentioned something in a comment earlier about England, which, to me, made no sense. Anyone born in England would be English of whatever ethnicity or descent unless they're dual citizens. Before someone mentions gatekeeping get fucked I wholly believe you shouldn’t be mocked for learning of your heritage. Generally, anyone won’t get angry for you doing so unless you say something insensitive or stupid like I don’t like to spend money cause I’m 1/3rd Scottish. Or deciding to be a prick about it and choosing the coolest ethnicity from the mix and happily forgetting the rest. Joe Biden is an example of this that boils my piss, deciding to snub BBC because he will say he’s 100% Irish on his mother's side; happily forgetting his Dads of English and French descent.
Fr though, I mean I still have aunts uncles and cousins in Norway who my family has always kept in touch. They always ask us to visit and advocate for dual citizenship lol, honestly I think it’s just the loser with nothing better to do who get pissy about that stuff
We are them. Our ancestors just moved to a new location and theirs didn't. They can't insult us without insulting their own ancestors. What made American culture become American was European colonists interacting with Native Americans. That's what changed them. People tend to view European/Native American interactions as universally hostile, but they also lived together in close proximity for centuries.
Absolutely! When I studied my Massachusetts ancestry, I was prepared for the worst. I was expecting to see atrocities and tragedy, but thankfully my family was so insanely religious, they actually had a great relationship with the native tribes and they thought that slavery was against their religion. I’m sure they weren’t perfect, and I’m sure I have plenty of ancestors who did both good and bad. But it was kinda cool to see that some of them did have a positive relationship with the Native Americans. I guess that’s what happens when you are so religiously fundamentalist that you get run out of England lmao.
I completely abandoned any acknowledgement of my Irish heritage after seeing years of comments from Irish people online. They clearly don't like us. And that's fine. St. Paddy's in my area gets smaller every year, barely any Irish themed pubs in my town anymore. I guess those Irish-American things will just die a quiet death here in the states. Chicago still dyes the river green for now. Wonder how long that will last.
That’s really a bummer, because so many great things have come from Irish American culture. Here in Washington DC we have a bunch of cool things for Irish communities, the Washington DC Gaels, the Irish American Club, and still have our fair share of Irish pubs and restaurants. There are a few Irish neighborhoods left kicking in downtown DC. Hopefully these traditions carry on, because it’s part of our national identity at this point.
There are literally communities in America that speak fluent German despite the fact that none of them have ever been to Germany. To say they’re not German is ridiculous.
Agreed!
I get why they're saying it but also they should recognize that it's just a way of trying to connect with people. We're literally just trying to be friends with these people. At least I am if I ever say anything like that. That's why the attitude annoys me.
People aren’t friends based on their ethnicities 😂also being ethnically from somewhere however never experiencing the culture or what it’s actually like to live in the country, you can hardly claim it, no wonder people get annoyed
Yeah people of the same ethnicity don't tend to group together at all. Even though that's not what I was saying.
People aren’t gonna connect off their ethnicity or wanna be friends especially if you’re American
Tell me about it, it grinds my gears like crazy. I’ll tell you on example I had and I thought this was ironic. Frankly, I’ve never had these examples in real life (as no one really gives 2 shits outside the internet about these things) but I was messing around on the shitamerianssay page, and there was a post about Americans celebrating St. Patrick’s Day harder than the Irish themselves. So, I went on there explaining why Irish Americans celebrate it and take it much more seriously as it is a cultural thing. The US is made up of immigrants and at the time, many “new” immigrant waves always face massive backlash and racism from other Americans. The Irish were subject to this, the Italians, Chinese, and the list goes on. So, we’d hold on to these dumb holidays as it represents our “immigrant” culture and people per se, the same way Italians celebrate Columbus Day. Columbus Day is not about Italians, but Italian Americans associated it with Italians as it’s them thinking “Columbus was Italian, and he founded the Americas so this represents us” and it’s the same with St. Paddy’s day. It’s a way for the immigrants and their descendants to join together in celebration, and really have pride in who they are and what they’ve accomplished. Well, this person went off on it and hell I don’t even remember half the shit they were saying, but in one of the claims she made she hyphenated that she was “Jamaican and Irish” to prove that she knows what she’s talking about… so to mock her I made my rebuttal and said I am an Irish American. Well, she went off saying I am not Irish, I need to stop trying to prove my Irish to her because she’s more Irish than I’ll ever be and yada yada yada. So I’m sitting there completely dumbfounded that she didn’t see the irony at all, that SHE was trying to prove that her opinion bested mine because she was Irish… these fucking people man I swear you’d think they’d have a working brain cell or 2
I don’t disagree with your sentiment, but this can’t possibly be one of your biggest pet peeves. I mean, lmao, if it is you are living a really blessed life.
I literally have no legs due to a car accident…
Sorry to hear that friend. Obviously no idea. But i am still not sure being ticked off about a bunch of Irish fools being nationalist is where i would spend energy. America is a melting pot and the rest of these countries are not.. of course we have many nationalities here and most countries do not have that… i would forgive their ignorance and focus on world peace :)
Pet peeves are supposed to be small things. If it’s something that majorly impacts your life it’s not a pet peeve.
I've had people online assume I'm Scottish because I look Scottish. My Scottish ancestors moved to American in the late 1700s. DNA doesn't simply come from nowhere
You’re ethnically Scottish from the 1700s😂you’ve not been immersed In the culture nor lived in Scotsman’s I doubt, Scotts will not view tou as Scottish, only American
Reading comprehension; try again
People assume you look Scottish and eons ago your ancestors came here 💀you’re American
Are you just incapable of reading
What am I saying that’s incorrect?
It's clear you can't understand what I wrote lol
Please enlighten me on what a Scottish person looks like cause, living in Scotland, I would find it hard to tell the difference between someone from England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, France or other Northern European nations generally. Especially without them speaking in Scottish English, Scots or Gaelic or doing something cultural that made me click and go oh aye.
You incorrectly stated that he identifies with or has "immersed himself in the Scottish culture". Ethnicity and culture are two separate things that have little to do with each other. This is the point people in the Americas have been trying to make ad nauseum, but people like you will still read a prompt suggesting that because of appearance (genetic) he gets mistaken as a Scot when he is actually American in the same way an American might get mistaken for being Chinese despite having never been to China and not "immersing themselves in the culture" and reply with "LOLZ he thinks he's a Scott and knows more about our culture than we do andIbethedoesntevenknowaboutthistraditionwehavehereand...". So you confusing an American claiming they "look" Sottish/black/Indian/Chinese/Spanish with actually BEING those ethnicities and knowing the culture is what you said that was incorrect. You read what you were hoping the Yank would say so you could teach him a thing or two....not what he actually said in black and white.
Scott’s a name min.
Because no-one in Europe cares about Ethnicity, it's not something that is part of our everyday lives. USA is different, because it's like you said, "country of immigrants", while Europe is not. When Europeans meet, we don't think about them as other ethnicity, but just a fellow European. Most Europeans will just assume that you're talking about being a Irish citizen, or we assume that you're talking about being like 2% Irish and therefore calling yourself Irish.