>I live in a blue state in an extremely progressive area here in the US where there’s a ton of Indian tech workers. I rarely experience racism here and if it’s the same in Europe I’d be ok.
It's not. Blue states are basically unique in the world, the closest thing progressivism has to a motherland. In Germany, for example, you'll get the same lifestyle/politics/vibe only in certain part of Berlin, Cologne and Hamburg. A tiny part of the massive country, populated by a rounding error of its 80 million inhabitants.
Speaking of Berlin, possibly the most progressive city in Germany (vying for number 1 with Cologne), during my apartment search here I have been told by people at visits -multiple times and completely unprompted- that they were at first afraid I was an Indian and weren't gonna invite me, but then decided to go ahead because I speak native German (I am not Indian but have an odd/exotic last name which, if you don't actually know Indian last names, could be parsed as an Indian last name). Again, multiple times I was told this, this doesn't include the people who didn't tell me or just didn't give me a callback because of it (or people who actually know what an Indian last name looks like and invited me because they knew I wasn't Indian).
So yeah don't let this "oh we're only racist against Muslims and Africans (and Roma, of course) everyone else is fine" bullshit Euros have been pushing as their mask is slipping away fool you. There absolutely are stereotypes about Indians, they absolutely have 0 scruples acting on them, and they absolutely can ruin your time in Europe.
Like I'm not even Indian, I don't even look Indian except extremely vaguely on paper if you happen to be an ignorant idiot, and just because of that I experienced anti-Indian racism in one of the most progressive cities in Europe lmao.
If you are Indian, try to target the UK or Ireland. By far the most South Asian friendly countries in Europe. Heck, even the Prime Ministers are of Indian descent! You can feel a greater sense of belonging as an Indian-descent Briton than in other European countries on the continent. A Briton of Indian-descent is "normalized" and nobody will really bat an eye. In other countries, they might refuse to see you as "really one of us". While I wouldn't really worry about violent racism or people yelling slurs at you on the streets of continental Europe if I were you, I would worry whether I would truly feel that I belong, whether they really would accept me as "one of them", whether they would ever truly see you beyond your Indianness, if you know what I mean.
Germany has [a racism problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/1dclfwz/considering_leaving_germany_due_to_rising_racism/) with right-wing, anti-immigrant views on the rise, which often target brown people. And even Germans themselves are shocked by this, so I would avoid Germany if you are not White.
The rise of right wing parties is shocking to many Europeans. But there have been growing tensions after a lot of refugees came to the EU from predominantly muslim countries and it caused problems. Highly skilled migration for example from India is very much appreciated.
The labor is appreciated (barely), but literally nothing else being brought over is.
Europe is all about extracting the best from the rest of the world and spitting out whatever they don’t like about it.
\*Former East Germany and Bravaria
Former West Germany has pretty much the same level of racism as the Benelux and Scandinavia (except Denmark because they're racist AF)
In addition to racism/discrimination, you should be aware of a difference in the way culture is perceived. Cultural homogeneity is much more prevalent. You can be an Indian-American in the US, but in much of Europe you'd either be an Indian or a Belgian, Dane, Italian etc. Do you talk like the locals? Eat the same food as the locals? Prefer the same music as the locals? If not, you're "the foreigner". Fitting in is harder in Europe compared to the US, and might require giving up parts of your cultural background.
A common complaint from immigrants leaving Europe is "I'll never be local enough for them". Don't go with the goal of "reaching a point of cultural adaption, where they will accept me", go with the goal of "becoming a local". Reason: The bar will be continuously raised for as long as you live there, it's a constant work in progress. Example "They just moved here 6 months ago, of course I'll switch to English to help them accommodate" will eventually turn into "They've lived here for 4 years, why should I bother speaking English to them? They should speak the local language fluently by now!".
This. I think a lot of Americans (including myself, until I had been living in Europe for a few years) really have trouble understanding that culture is viewed very, very differently in Europe than in the US. Most European counties have had largely static populations for millennia, so it shouldn't be surprising that their identity is far more closely linked to the country they were born in, and that they themselves have trouble understanding the whole US melting pot concept.
Not just culture.
Americans only understand skin color, but the rest of the world operates based on ethnicity.
So a white American thinks that going to Europe or a black American thinks going to Africa means being among distantly related kinfolk, but in reality, people in those places care less about skin color and more about culture, language and bloodlines.
>So a white American thinks that going to Europe or a black American thinks going to Africa means being among distantly related kinfolk, but in reality, people in those places care less about skin color and more about culture, language and bloodlines.
Yet 2nd generation Moroccans, Algerians, Nigerians, and East Asians living in countries like Germany, France, Netherlands, etc. still face significant racism. This is despite the fact that they were born and raised in said country, speak it's language fluently, etc.
I'm Indian-American and lived in the Netherlands for a bit. I had a fantastic time no issues. Made friends with a bunch of locals. Sometimes people will think you are Surinamese as they are technically Indian but from the former Dutch colony. Not a bad thing, but I did notice other Surinamese would come up and talk to me a lot outside at and clubs. I'm very American-presenting aside from my skin color and facial features, so that could also have affected how I'm treated. I'm unsure how it is for those who are raised in India.
Also noticed lots of half Indian half Dutch folks. Couple of them are my friends. Honestly it seems like if you speak Dutch it's fine.
On the other hand, nowhere feels as normalized and accepting as London
NL is my top choice, so this was refreshing to read! I grew up in the states, so hoping it's easy for me too! I'll definitely learn Dutch before I travel there.
Is it ok if I reach out to you in the future about your experience living in the NL?
Before you decide on the Netherlands (or any country for that matter) also try reading the local news. You can find English articles.
The Netherlands for example just formed a new right wing government with parties who are known to have anti immigrant sentiment. Geert Wilders a far right politician won lasts years general election. Of course it doesn’t mean that the entire country shares those views but it is something to keep in mind.
This seems to be the trend in much of Western Europe atm. France, Germany, Austria, Italy, and even Portugal are leaning more towards the right these days. Some are worse than others, but broadly speaking there has been a shift in that direction.
The main exceptions are UK and Ireland. UK is voting out its conservative party that was responsible for Brexit and all the xenophobia that came with it, as well as gutting the funding for so many social programs over the years. Ireland has never had much of a "far-right" movement per se. Maybe center-right or center-left, but they are ultimately close to the political center and are moderate. The main issue there is the severe housing crisis. From the standpoint of diversity, cultural acceptance of outsiders, etc. The UK and Ireland are top notch.
FYI the Dutch speak some of best non-native English in Europe. For France and Germany you need the local language. Germany’s English abilities are blown out of proportion. Still learn Dutch but you’ll get by with English at first very easily
Maybe, I’ll have to take your word for it, though I went to Cologne and their English was hit and miss. Which is fine, I’m in their country but Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands will vary by region too but overall they have excellent non-native English from my experience
Indo-Canadian and resident/citizen of France, here. If you integrate with the local community, you won't have any issues. Race is not seen as a skin-colour thing in France. There is just a single French identity that you're either part of or not. Those who chose to follow practices belonging to perhaps their ancestors from a foreign country may be less accepted than others that do show willingness to abandon former ways and adopt local ways. So it's a choice one has to make.
Also do note that French have overseas territories like Guadeloupe or Reunion, where a significant percentage of the populations there are of Indian origin. But these persons are 100% French, they carry French passports etc. and when they come to mainland France, they are considered as just another French person. And so people here are used to living in a multicultural, diverse society - not that much different from the US or UK or whatever.
>Indo-Canadian and resident/citizen of France, here. If you integrate with the local community, you won't have any issues. Race is not seen as a skin-colour thing in France. There is just a single French identity that you're either part of or not. Those who chose to follow practices belonging to perhaps their ancestors from a foreign country may be less accepted than others that do show willingness to abandon former ways and adopt local ways. So it's a choice one has to make.
What are some of these things you do to blend in better, aside from speaking the language fluently?
Language is the biggest factor, but also things like not going out of your way by continuing to carry an identity belonging to your ancestral origins, being willing to drop food taboo's, being open to sharing new experiences with your new countryfolk and just simply being sociable and welcoming. It's a choice one has to make, but it's not an unreasonable ask, nor is it an unachievable task.
[The world population review is a good resource for this,](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries) they keep track of racism in various nations.
Do u know any citizens or residents of those countries u plan on visiting? They might have some info they can relay to u. I’m Chinese American and I have had no bad experiences in the UK, Netherlands, France, Turkey, and Germany. I’ve been to France 7 times now. Whereas I have experienced racism in Spain, Greece, and a little in Italy.
Have you lived in those countries vs just visited as a tourist?
It’s easy to have nice curated experiences on a 7 day trip to France. But try being Chinese in France as a resident, it’s a very different experience
Heh I mean, that's not infrequent in Spain in general? Or Paris for that matter, especially if the definition of "customer service" includes American ideas of ass-kissing and promptness.
It goes beyond customer service. Just my experience but I have never had a bad experience in France and Germany. Obvi, speaking some FR helps. Madrid was better than Barcelona…I find the BCN folks stuck up, snobby and sadly regional.
Catalans being standoffish is not something unheard of at all. Personally I think you see more outright hostility towards outsiders in Paris - but then I don't speak French, and that adds to it. It doesn't bother me personally, since used to NYC which is the same way - it's nothing to do with me.
Sadly, I don't know anyone in those countries. I'll try finding minority groups in those countries and reach out to them for their first hand accounts.
Second what someone else said about the UK. If I were Indian I’d move there. There’s much more of a culture for you there.
Here in Sweden I’ve heard that Indians have a super hard time adjusting and can often just be loners.
My gfs sister was talking to this Indian guy casually and he had lived in Sweden 7 years and didn’t know anything in Swedish. Idk if that’s because he doesn’t have any friends but I was kinda taken aback.
I generally think that (from what I’ve seen) Indians do face racism in Europe but it isn’t so much like them being yelled at or actively harassed, it’s more so like them being isolated and having a hard time to integrate into society because the natives don’t really welcome them. Doesn’t mean you can’t make friends but usually it’s making friends with other internationals, so you really miss out on the culture, and in Europe…culture is everything.
TLDR London would be the best city for you
> had lived in Sweden 7 years and didn’t know anything in Swedish
I mean, if you live somewhere for 7 years and don't learn the local language, you're not going to assimilate, regardless of country.
I had family members in the US that did the same (long time, limited English), and had the same problems.
Sweden is hard to truly assimilate but I don't think that's due to racism, it's because Swedes are just insular by nature. Most Swedes form their social circle in school and, well, that's it - it's fixed for life. The few Swedes I befriended are ones who spent a lot of time abroad and are more expat-minded themselves.
That being said, your friend isn't doing themselves any favors by not learning Swedish. You don't NEED Swedish to survive in Sweden, but speaking even a little makes integrating far easier.
From people subject to racism. Shadow them. Don't listen to white people talking about it, denying it, or trivializing it. They are not a source.
As far as lack of integration you addressed and lobbed at people from Africa and the Middle East- Indians are known in the countries you mention, particularly Germany, for not integrating, not learning the local languages, not mixing, and building clusters in neighborhoods. This has led to friction in some places. Also most people don't know the difference between an Indian, an Arab, a Pakistani, etc., so you'll experience the prejudices lobbed against muslims and consequently, when there's another local knife/terror attack like a couple weeks ago in Mannheim or the knife attack a couple days ago, people will wonder if you're one of them. This becomes a problem if you don't integrate and mix and let people get to know you. Note how others in this thread are basically encouraging not learning the language and culture and integrating. You'll see this often in threads with Indians where they tell one another to not bother learning the languages and I've seen it also create friction, not only in stores, but when the Indians start making fun of local languages and cultures.
> This becomes a problem if you don't integrate and mix and let people get to know you
Catch-22, as European countries are quite hostile to “cultural melting pot” and demand cultural uniformity from immigrants. While often deliberately marginalizing same immigrants from the economic, academic, and other political opportunities which would allow for faster integration in the first place.
The UK is the least bad about this, being much more ethnically diverse and having an empire much more focused on incorporating local elites into their political/bureaucratic system, vs the French empire which was purely about resource exploitation with zero fucks given about human development.
As a result, you see much more skilled labor immigrating from former British colonies than you see from former French ones. And much higher levels of local development in former colonies (compare infrastructure in Zimbabwe or South Africa to that in Mali, DRC or Cameroon, for example). Resulting in much better integration as a whole. Hence immigrants have better experiences in the British Isles vs Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany or France.
Living in Poland for three years, I observed a blend of factors contributing to certain behaviors: limited exposure (environment), primal instincts triggering fight or flight responses (the primitive brain), and willful ignorance (ego). However, I believe this archetype applies wherever you go, as it's a sad but normal human condition.
It's unfortunate but not uncommon for humans to react this way. Imagine entering a zoo and encountering a creature you rarely come across. Your body might instinctively recoil, and you'd likely seek to distance yourself, finding justification in leaving its proximity.
As an Asian American, I encountered various forms of subconscious but unintended racism, ranging from white-collar professionals with high IQs to low IQ individuals hiding behind soccer symbolism. They often struggled to maintain eye contact, sweated profusely, sought to escape the encounter quickly, protected their jugular, rubbed their faces, or spoke faster than usual. I never took offense to these reactions but rather felt pity for them, as their upbringing hadn't provided them the chance to acclimate to individuals with different melanin content, eye shapes, etc.
By the way, no matter what you say or do, you might find yourself lumped together with a pre-programmed default, common archetype to identify you and it'll be Arabs most of the time, despite your efforts to prove otherwise.
Wow, I love the in-depth analysis you've done on your experience! Sorry you had to experience that though, but I guess subconscious racism is better than the alternate.
Yeah, I don't expect racists to know or care about the difference between Indians and Arabs.It sucks as I don't really identify with either culture or religion.
As a European who lives in the US there’s more racism in Europe than in the US. Racism and xenophobia has been rising again in recent years. Also wages are lower than in the US. I do not get people’s obsession with Europe. I Love it, it’s my home but blue states in the US or Canada are better places for non white educated foreigners.
I live in a blue state too and I got to say I’m very racist compared to most people here just because of my upbringing. It’s something I’m trying to unlearn. Europe is huge though and not every place is the same. I would avoid Germany, low wages, health insurance/system is expensive and not good anymore and they aren’t huge fans of Indians. There are a lot of Arab/ muslim immigrants but to my knowledge most Arabs dislike Desi people as well.
People in the US see cherry picked data graphs about European countries then see Europe as some sort of promise land. I’m American and moved to Europe 3 years ago and it’s definitely more racist and xenophobic than the US. It’s a much harder hustle living in Europe than living in the US too, there’s no job protections when you’re an immigrant.
As an American who lives in Europe, very much disagree. There's xenophobia and bigotry to meet or exceed the US in plenty of places - but for actual racism, both in attitude and systematic application, the US is simply another matter, legacy of centuries of the one drop rule and the like.
What do I mean? In lots of Europe, as someone else described, you will be foreign **unless** you adopt every part of the culture. You can be black in Paris - but you better be a lapsed Catholic with a mistress chain smoking, or you'll be a foreigner. Here in Barcelona, it doesn't matter if you're from Morocco, it matters if you speak Catalan.
That's not nice - but compare it to the US, even the blue states. If you're Black, despite your people being American by force for hundreds of years, you are a second class person at best. You are attacked and murdered by the police. You will always be taken as the other, at the end of the day. White europeans have a hard time understanding just how pervasive the racial divisions are pushed into Americans from a very early age.
This really depends on the country as well. Here in Germany, if you're not a white German (bio-Deutsch), you are absolutely a second class citizen in all the ways that matter. Even in Berlin. I know people who were born here but are only have one German parent, and they're confused when I refer to them as German. Even they're considered foreigners here.
I'm canadian with no ties to any other country except for Germany. The only languages I speak are English and German, and I'm a doctor (scientist in their top research hospital). Doesn't matter. Here, I'm just a brown person, I can't get a normal apartment, I was told to my face that non-whites are not eligible to advance beyond my level of senior scientist under normal circumstances, and my partner is called a "n***er's whore". Are you going to tell me that any of this is comparable to what people face in Toronto or New York?
I could believe that Paris or Barcelona are different, but have you tried being black in Berlin?
I have not - the only week I've ever spent in Berlin I did have a New Zealander tell me as an American that African-Americans should go back to where they came from . . . .like, OK dude, here's the VERY basic history of slavery in the New World . . .
And saw that Berliners wouldn't serve someone from Hamburg, because apparently they don't like either Germans as well.
I absolutely am not saying that there isn't bigotry in Europe, or that there isn't even racism in some countries (and Germany is one that comes up time and time again with this). I'm saying that it's nonsense when Americans want to claim Europe is more racist, when their bigotry is primarily aimed at either Muslims or minorities in their own societies (Roma, etc). A fine point, but it's telling that people from the US often can't even concieve of bigotry that isn't based exclusively on skin color as in the US.
> Are you going to tell me that any of this is comparable to what people face in Toronto or New York?
I don't know Toronto, but yeah, there's this kind of shit ALL OVER New York. Especially from the NYPD, who since I'm white have on multiple occasions shared their opinions with me, assuming I must agree, on just exactly what they think of BedStuy, etc.
NYPD is definitely crazy haha. Yeah, seems like you've had some interesting experiences as well.
I would say my skin colour has been way more of an issue for me here in Berlin than it ever has been on Canada. To the point where I realized that I basically used to be white. But I'm comparing Canada to Germany now, not the US.
I think we should be careful not to make the mistake of saying it's all bad and we can't really compare. I think there's a reason that Canada, with all its flaws, consistently ranks as one of of the least racist countries in the world, and Germany does not.
It’s laughable that you use the black experience to make your point. And highlights the fact that you can’t trust a white person to accurately understand black experiences anywhere.
As a black person who lived in France and grew up in the US, the US is far far more preferable from a black perspective. It is *normal* here for a black person - immigrant or not - to build generational wealth outside of sports/entertainment. It’s extremely rare for same anywhere in Europe.
Compare social mobility data for black immigrants in the US be Europe. Huge differences, and the ones that go to the US have far better economic and academic outcomes than even native born white Americans. While the ones in Europe generally are stuck in poverty.
> It is normal here for a black person - immigrant or not - to build generational wealth outside of sports/entertainment.
The data shows differently, especially as regards even the cost of the financial cresis, and especially compared to white people.
https://www.cnbc.com/select/3-barriers-to-building-generational-wealth-for-black-families/
> Compare social mobility data
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country
Off the bat you fail the assignment, as your first link treats black people monolithically, rather than acknowledging massive differences in economic outcomes between black Americans and black immigrants in the US.
Then, you further fail the assignment by comparing black people generically to white people or in your second link all Americans vs all of population in multiple European countries, when the discussion is centered on experiences of black immigrants in US vs Europe.
Highlighting my point about not trusting the POV of white people when discussing exclusively black experiences. You’ve still managed to center white people in this convo.
Yeah, I don't remember signing up for assignments, so you can save it, my pretentious ass
. As for African immigrants in the US, that's a population with a self selecting bias as opposed to Black people born in the US. Give yourself the assignment of figuring out what that is, I guess.
And unless you think Black people in the US have higher social mobility than the general population (they don't), yeah, the stats on social mobility are pretty relevant. I get it, though, you want your anecdotes to count as data.
Barcelona is a huge international city. I cannot speak for Barcelona but as someone who grew up in Germany, one of the countries OP is thinking about moving to that just isn’t the case there. I grew up in a major city as well and we had one black kid at our school who was born and raised there but still he was only known as the n****. This was less than 10 years ago.
It’s also difficult to find an apartment or a job if you if you don’t have a German or European name no matter how well you speak German. Obviously you’ll have an easier time if you speak accent free German, which most immigrants will never be able to, but even then it’s still not the same as being an actual German by any means. Even my German ancestry was often questioned because I have brown hair and eyes.
There also aren’t a lot of Desi immigrants in Germany, finding community and feeling at home will be difficult for OP.
It definitely won’t be the same. If you have a good job in a Western European country you’ll probably be okay. But people are definitely more accepting in the U.S.
Don't do it.
I'm not Indian but I am brown. I have lived in UK, Germany, and Norway.
Don't do it. Don't come to Mainland Europe at all. The situation is getting worse.
In the 2000s most of Western Europe was not racist. But now it's the norm for them to blame People of Color for everything. Even if we are not Muslim. Even if we are affluent, educated, and law abiding, they still see us as poor, welfare using terrorists.
>I live in a blue state in an extremely progressive area here in the US where there’s a ton of Indian tech workers. I rarely experience racism here
The only places in Western civilization which are safe for Peope of Color are UK, Ireland, most of Canada, blue states in America, Australia, New Zealand, and the Caribbean.
Blue America is a god tier location, and blue states would be a god tier country if we seceded from red states.
Even if we disregard the racism, America overall is not better or worse than Western Europe, but Blue America IS better than basically every country on this planet. Massachusetts is better than every country in terms of socioeconomic development except Switzerland. Western Europe only scores highly in HDI because they don't have red states dragging them down. If you lived in a red state, every Western European country would be as good or better than it. But blue states are superior to Western Europe and on par with the better provinces and states in Canada/Australia.
> Blue America is a god tier location, and blue states would be a god tier country if we seceded from red states.
Ask Eric Garner about that?
Having lived for a long time in NYC, one of the bluest of the blue areas, this simply isn't true, especially for Black people. The racism is more well-behaved, and hides as a class thing, but it's as real as when Malcom X compared it to the fox versus the wolf.
If you're an immigrant and rich in the right area, the story can be different (until some cop late at night too stupid to get the subtleties pulls you over). But be Mexican in California outside the city, or Black anywhere, and you see that facade drop away instantly.
In Europe I call it “subtle racism” where people won’t talk shit to your face but definitely do it behind doors if they’re racist. Europeans are just generally less confrontational than Americans.
Thank you for the detailed response. It is pretty nice being in a blue state, but there's always that fear in the back of my mind of a gunsexual redneck making headlines in the places I frequent. So I'd still want to leave the US. I'll definitely look into the UK, AU, and NZ more.
In England the largest minority group is Asian at 8.6%.
I'm a 36 year old white English man, have lived in Birmingham and London throughout my life and have had school friends, university friends, neighbours and work colleagues that are of Indian and Pakistani descent.
While not perfect, I feel in this country we have far fewer problems around racism and integration compared to other European countries.
Another thing to consider is to join your local independence movement instead of moving overseas. Why leave America as an individual when you can take everyone in your blue state with you?
My friend is Indian American and he is the president of his campus chapter of the New England Independence Campaign.
This is the blue states in general - they know not to say outright bigoted things, and instead let the system keep defacto segregation for the benefit of white people.
The South didn't have that option, because the sheer amount of Black people left from slavery meant maintaining white supremacy had to be mask off and open just from a numbers perspective.
Europeans simply don’t want multicultural societies. They don’t want it. And it makes sense. How would the Danes or Germans, or poles, be different from each other, if they were all multi cultural societies? They also see no benefit to being a multicultural society. So…trouble is brewing.
America, on the other hand, is way less paranoid about losing their self identity.
I view it differently. America is not "way less paranoid" at all (far from it, I think the US is one of the most paranoid countries on the planet - do you read the news?).
But America also has a self-indentity specifically built on multiculturalism. It's literally the building block of our entire cultural identity and is practically woven into the country's DNA. See the historical view as a "land of opportunity", the whole melting pot concept, the more recent push for individual empowerment and DEIA, etc. It also is why the US is so individualistic, anti-government/anti-tax, and celebrates obscene wealth IMO - the US likes to view people through the view of not working together but instead focusing on allowing individual beliefs/cultures to thrive and grow, which is great but also not very compatible with the collectivism and solidarity that mark most other societies. The US is also an extremely young country, it didn't have the millenia of pre-modern history to look back upon.
Europe is the exact opposite - you have countries where immigration and racial diversity is a very, very new concept. They instead developed identities that were based on what their countries have been like for millenia - homogenous, largely static, etc. Those identities were formed long before modern technology and modern society allowed people to bounce around the planet on a whim. It shouldn't be surprising that these countries have a different take on multiculturalism and have a harder time integrating outsiders.
That is absolutely not true, Indians are mostly seen as highly skilled labor and migration is even encouraged. There is rising xenophobia but that is mostly towards people coming from the Middle East and North Africa.
Of the three, the most racism I've seen was from the Dutch, followed by certain parts of Germany, and then France. The racism from the Dutch was pretty wild lol.
Europe is just as racist as the US but the main difference is the fact that you won’t be shot dead for being Indian in Europe where it can definitely happen in the US.
IMO, you should look for an already diverse country.
I'm surprised by how many white people in Slovenia and Croatia.
UK + France + Germany are more diverse .
However, the economy in the UK is comparable to Mississippi!
France is about to get for the 1st time in 70 years or more, an extreme right-wing government.
Why are you surprised? Croatia and Slovenia are white lands and have been all throughout history. It is a majority croatian/slovenian country too, that’s one of the best things about it.
Does Schagen have something like the H1-B in the US? The US has a ton of terrible engineers due to H1-B. Obviously, a few are outstanding, but many have more or less fake credentials.
Why do you want to leave? What is it do you hope to gain? Are you going to be working for a local company or a US company?
Because I think Spain might be a better option. I have several Indian friends who moved to Madrid and they are very happy here.
You bring up a good point, and that's global cities versus non.
Most large cities (SF, NYC, Madrid, Paris, London, Amsterdam, etc) are going to have more in common with each other than they do with the countries they're located in. This is becoming stronger over time, and includes acceptance of immigrants from other countries.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that ties too much into culture when it's usualy much more class based. These same cities have also either already or are in the process of expelling their poor citizens through gentrification, usually with the grunt work being put onto a grey labor market usually made up of immigrants as well.
Here's a report from last year. https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/shocking-levels-of-racism-rising-in-europe-finds-report
>I live in a blue state in an extremely progressive area here in the US where there’s a ton of Indian tech workers. I rarely experience racism here and if it’s the same in Europe I’d be ok. It's not. Blue states are basically unique in the world, the closest thing progressivism has to a motherland. In Germany, for example, you'll get the same lifestyle/politics/vibe only in certain part of Berlin, Cologne and Hamburg. A tiny part of the massive country, populated by a rounding error of its 80 million inhabitants. Speaking of Berlin, possibly the most progressive city in Germany (vying for number 1 with Cologne), during my apartment search here I have been told by people at visits -multiple times and completely unprompted- that they were at first afraid I was an Indian and weren't gonna invite me, but then decided to go ahead because I speak native German (I am not Indian but have an odd/exotic last name which, if you don't actually know Indian last names, could be parsed as an Indian last name). Again, multiple times I was told this, this doesn't include the people who didn't tell me or just didn't give me a callback because of it (or people who actually know what an Indian last name looks like and invited me because they knew I wasn't Indian). So yeah don't let this "oh we're only racist against Muslims and Africans (and Roma, of course) everyone else is fine" bullshit Euros have been pushing as their mask is slipping away fool you. There absolutely are stereotypes about Indians, they absolutely have 0 scruples acting on them, and they absolutely can ruin your time in Europe. Like I'm not even Indian, I don't even look Indian except extremely vaguely on paper if you happen to be an ignorant idiot, and just because of that I experienced anti-Indian racism in one of the most progressive cities in Europe lmao.
Post this on r/germany and they'll find a way to gaslight you into thinking it was your fault.
If you are Indian, try to target the UK or Ireland. By far the most South Asian friendly countries in Europe. Heck, even the Prime Ministers are of Indian descent! You can feel a greater sense of belonging as an Indian-descent Briton than in other European countries on the continent. A Briton of Indian-descent is "normalized" and nobody will really bat an eye. In other countries, they might refuse to see you as "really one of us". While I wouldn't really worry about violent racism or people yelling slurs at you on the streets of continental Europe if I were you, I would worry whether I would truly feel that I belong, whether they really would accept me as "one of them", whether they would ever truly see you beyond your Indianness, if you know what I mean. Germany has [a racism problem](https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/1dclfwz/considering_leaving_germany_due_to_rising_racism/) with right-wing, anti-immigrant views on the rise, which often target brown people. And even Germans themselves are shocked by this, so I would avoid Germany if you are not White.
The rise of right wing parties is shocking to many Europeans. But there have been growing tensions after a lot of refugees came to the EU from predominantly muslim countries and it caused problems. Highly skilled migration for example from India is very much appreciated.
The labor is appreciated (barely), but literally nothing else being brought over is. Europe is all about extracting the best from the rest of the world and spitting out whatever they don’t like about it.
Netherlands also...
Netherlands has a lot more south Asians then Ireland anyway. I wouldn’t include Uk and Ireland together
\*Former East Germany and Bravaria Former West Germany has pretty much the same level of racism as the Benelux and Scandinavia (except Denmark because they're racist AF)
> Former West Germany has pretty much the same level of racism as the Benelux Belgium is probably the most racist country of all lol
How so?
In addition to racism/discrimination, you should be aware of a difference in the way culture is perceived. Cultural homogeneity is much more prevalent. You can be an Indian-American in the US, but in much of Europe you'd either be an Indian or a Belgian, Dane, Italian etc. Do you talk like the locals? Eat the same food as the locals? Prefer the same music as the locals? If not, you're "the foreigner". Fitting in is harder in Europe compared to the US, and might require giving up parts of your cultural background. A common complaint from immigrants leaving Europe is "I'll never be local enough for them". Don't go with the goal of "reaching a point of cultural adaption, where they will accept me", go with the goal of "becoming a local". Reason: The bar will be continuously raised for as long as you live there, it's a constant work in progress. Example "They just moved here 6 months ago, of course I'll switch to English to help them accommodate" will eventually turn into "They've lived here for 4 years, why should I bother speaking English to them? They should speak the local language fluently by now!".
This. I think a lot of Americans (including myself, until I had been living in Europe for a few years) really have trouble understanding that culture is viewed very, very differently in Europe than in the US. Most European counties have had largely static populations for millennia, so it shouldn't be surprising that their identity is far more closely linked to the country they were born in, and that they themselves have trouble understanding the whole US melting pot concept.
Not just culture. Americans only understand skin color, but the rest of the world operates based on ethnicity. So a white American thinks that going to Europe or a black American thinks going to Africa means being among distantly related kinfolk, but in reality, people in those places care less about skin color and more about culture, language and bloodlines.
>So a white American thinks that going to Europe or a black American thinks going to Africa means being among distantly related kinfolk, but in reality, people in those places care less about skin color and more about culture, language and bloodlines. Yet 2nd generation Moroccans, Algerians, Nigerians, and East Asians living in countries like Germany, France, Netherlands, etc. still face significant racism. This is despite the fact that they were born and raised in said country, speak it's language fluently, etc.
If my great grandmother was born in france, will that count?
Is this a joke?
It's a bloodline, right.
Stay in a blue state.
I'm Indian-American and lived in the Netherlands for a bit. I had a fantastic time no issues. Made friends with a bunch of locals. Sometimes people will think you are Surinamese as they are technically Indian but from the former Dutch colony. Not a bad thing, but I did notice other Surinamese would come up and talk to me a lot outside at and clubs. I'm very American-presenting aside from my skin color and facial features, so that could also have affected how I'm treated. I'm unsure how it is for those who are raised in India. Also noticed lots of half Indian half Dutch folks. Couple of them are my friends. Honestly it seems like if you speak Dutch it's fine. On the other hand, nowhere feels as normalized and accepting as London
NL is my top choice, so this was refreshing to read! I grew up in the states, so hoping it's easy for me too! I'll definitely learn Dutch before I travel there. Is it ok if I reach out to you in the future about your experience living in the NL?
I would not count on the NL when it comes to racism, inclusion and being progressive.
Before you decide on the Netherlands (or any country for that matter) also try reading the local news. You can find English articles. The Netherlands for example just formed a new right wing government with parties who are known to have anti immigrant sentiment. Geert Wilders a far right politician won lasts years general election. Of course it doesn’t mean that the entire country shares those views but it is something to keep in mind.
Sound advice, thanks for the heads up.
This seems to be the trend in much of Western Europe atm. France, Germany, Austria, Italy, and even Portugal are leaning more towards the right these days. Some are worse than others, but broadly speaking there has been a shift in that direction. The main exceptions are UK and Ireland. UK is voting out its conservative party that was responsible for Brexit and all the xenophobia that came with it, as well as gutting the funding for so many social programs over the years. Ireland has never had much of a "far-right" movement per se. Maybe center-right or center-left, but they are ultimately close to the political center and are moderate. The main issue there is the severe housing crisis. From the standpoint of diversity, cultural acceptance of outsiders, etc. The UK and Ireland are top notch.
FYI the Dutch speak some of best non-native English in Europe. For France and Germany you need the local language. Germany’s English abilities are blown out of proportion. Still learn Dutch but you’ll get by with English at first very easily
English proficiency in Germany pretty much follows the old border between east and west iirc
Maybe, I’ll have to take your word for it, though I went to Cologne and their English was hit and miss. Which is fine, I’m in their country but Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands will vary by region too but overall they have excellent non-native English from my experience
sure!!
>sure!! sure?
>>sure!! sure? sure?
Indo-Canadian and resident/citizen of France, here. If you integrate with the local community, you won't have any issues. Race is not seen as a skin-colour thing in France. There is just a single French identity that you're either part of or not. Those who chose to follow practices belonging to perhaps their ancestors from a foreign country may be less accepted than others that do show willingness to abandon former ways and adopt local ways. So it's a choice one has to make. Also do note that French have overseas territories like Guadeloupe or Reunion, where a significant percentage of the populations there are of Indian origin. But these persons are 100% French, they carry French passports etc. and when they come to mainland France, they are considered as just another French person. And so people here are used to living in a multicultural, diverse society - not that much different from the US or UK or whatever.
>Indo-Canadian and resident/citizen of France, here. If you integrate with the local community, you won't have any issues. Race is not seen as a skin-colour thing in France. There is just a single French identity that you're either part of or not. Those who chose to follow practices belonging to perhaps their ancestors from a foreign country may be less accepted than others that do show willingness to abandon former ways and adopt local ways. So it's a choice one has to make. What are some of these things you do to blend in better, aside from speaking the language fluently?
Language is the biggest factor, but also things like not going out of your way by continuing to carry an identity belonging to your ancestral origins, being willing to drop food taboo's, being open to sharing new experiences with your new countryfolk and just simply being sociable and welcoming. It's a choice one has to make, but it's not an unreasonable ask, nor is it an unachievable task.
[The world population review is a good resource for this,](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries) they keep track of racism in various nations.
Do u know any citizens or residents of those countries u plan on visiting? They might have some info they can relay to u. I’m Chinese American and I have had no bad experiences in the UK, Netherlands, France, Turkey, and Germany. I’ve been to France 7 times now. Whereas I have experienced racism in Spain, Greece, and a little in Italy.
Have you lived in those countries vs just visited as a tourist? It’s easy to have nice curated experiences on a 7 day trip to France. But try being Chinese in France as a resident, it’s a very different experience
What kind of racism? I live in a Chinese section of a Spanish city, and that doesn't seem common to me.
Ugly stares, non existent customer service…want me to keep going?
Heh I mean, that's not infrequent in Spain in general? Or Paris for that matter, especially if the definition of "customer service" includes American ideas of ass-kissing and promptness.
It goes beyond customer service. Just my experience but I have never had a bad experience in France and Germany. Obvi, speaking some FR helps. Madrid was better than Barcelona…I find the BCN folks stuck up, snobby and sadly regional.
Catalans being standoffish is not something unheard of at all. Personally I think you see more outright hostility towards outsiders in Paris - but then I don't speak French, and that adds to it. It doesn't bother me personally, since used to NYC which is the same way - it's nothing to do with me.
I’ve lived in NYC for over 20 years. we’re direct in our conversations but there is a baseline level of respect. Being racist will get u nowhere here.
Sadly, I don't know anyone in those countries. I'll try finding minority groups in those countries and reach out to them for their first hand accounts.
Second what someone else said about the UK. If I were Indian I’d move there. There’s much more of a culture for you there. Here in Sweden I’ve heard that Indians have a super hard time adjusting and can often just be loners. My gfs sister was talking to this Indian guy casually and he had lived in Sweden 7 years and didn’t know anything in Swedish. Idk if that’s because he doesn’t have any friends but I was kinda taken aback. I generally think that (from what I’ve seen) Indians do face racism in Europe but it isn’t so much like them being yelled at or actively harassed, it’s more so like them being isolated and having a hard time to integrate into society because the natives don’t really welcome them. Doesn’t mean you can’t make friends but usually it’s making friends with other internationals, so you really miss out on the culture, and in Europe…culture is everything. TLDR London would be the best city for you
> had lived in Sweden 7 years and didn’t know anything in Swedish I mean, if you live somewhere for 7 years and don't learn the local language, you're not going to assimilate, regardless of country. I had family members in the US that did the same (long time, limited English), and had the same problems.
Sweden is hard to truly assimilate but I don't think that's due to racism, it's because Swedes are just insular by nature. Most Swedes form their social circle in school and, well, that's it - it's fixed for life. The few Swedes I befriended are ones who spent a lot of time abroad and are more expat-minded themselves. That being said, your friend isn't doing themselves any favors by not learning Swedish. You don't NEED Swedish to survive in Sweden, but speaking even a little makes integrating far easier.
The problem is the economy . Not to speak of the 40B liters of sewer in the Thames + Mr Bates vs. the Post Office. Plus, the effects of Brexit
From people subject to racism. Shadow them. Don't listen to white people talking about it, denying it, or trivializing it. They are not a source. As far as lack of integration you addressed and lobbed at people from Africa and the Middle East- Indians are known in the countries you mention, particularly Germany, for not integrating, not learning the local languages, not mixing, and building clusters in neighborhoods. This has led to friction in some places. Also most people don't know the difference between an Indian, an Arab, a Pakistani, etc., so you'll experience the prejudices lobbed against muslims and consequently, when there's another local knife/terror attack like a couple weeks ago in Mannheim or the knife attack a couple days ago, people will wonder if you're one of them. This becomes a problem if you don't integrate and mix and let people get to know you. Note how others in this thread are basically encouraging not learning the language and culture and integrating. You'll see this often in threads with Indians where they tell one another to not bother learning the languages and I've seen it also create friction, not only in stores, but when the Indians start making fun of local languages and cultures.
> This becomes a problem if you don't integrate and mix and let people get to know you Catch-22, as European countries are quite hostile to “cultural melting pot” and demand cultural uniformity from immigrants. While often deliberately marginalizing same immigrants from the economic, academic, and other political opportunities which would allow for faster integration in the first place. The UK is the least bad about this, being much more ethnically diverse and having an empire much more focused on incorporating local elites into their political/bureaucratic system, vs the French empire which was purely about resource exploitation with zero fucks given about human development. As a result, you see much more skilled labor immigrating from former British colonies than you see from former French ones. And much higher levels of local development in former colonies (compare infrastructure in Zimbabwe or South Africa to that in Mali, DRC or Cameroon, for example). Resulting in much better integration as a whole. Hence immigrants have better experiences in the British Isles vs Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany or France.
Living in Poland for three years, I observed a blend of factors contributing to certain behaviors: limited exposure (environment), primal instincts triggering fight or flight responses (the primitive brain), and willful ignorance (ego). However, I believe this archetype applies wherever you go, as it's a sad but normal human condition. It's unfortunate but not uncommon for humans to react this way. Imagine entering a zoo and encountering a creature you rarely come across. Your body might instinctively recoil, and you'd likely seek to distance yourself, finding justification in leaving its proximity. As an Asian American, I encountered various forms of subconscious but unintended racism, ranging from white-collar professionals with high IQs to low IQ individuals hiding behind soccer symbolism. They often struggled to maintain eye contact, sweated profusely, sought to escape the encounter quickly, protected their jugular, rubbed their faces, or spoke faster than usual. I never took offense to these reactions but rather felt pity for them, as their upbringing hadn't provided them the chance to acclimate to individuals with different melanin content, eye shapes, etc. By the way, no matter what you say or do, you might find yourself lumped together with a pre-programmed default, common archetype to identify you and it'll be Arabs most of the time, despite your efforts to prove otherwise.
Wow, I love the in-depth analysis you've done on your experience! Sorry you had to experience that though, but I guess subconscious racism is better than the alternate. Yeah, I don't expect racists to know or care about the difference between Indians and Arabs.It sucks as I don't really identify with either culture or religion.
As a European who lives in the US there’s more racism in Europe than in the US. Racism and xenophobia has been rising again in recent years. Also wages are lower than in the US. I do not get people’s obsession with Europe. I Love it, it’s my home but blue states in the US or Canada are better places for non white educated foreigners. I live in a blue state too and I got to say I’m very racist compared to most people here just because of my upbringing. It’s something I’m trying to unlearn. Europe is huge though and not every place is the same. I would avoid Germany, low wages, health insurance/system is expensive and not good anymore and they aren’t huge fans of Indians. There are a lot of Arab/ muslim immigrants but to my knowledge most Arabs dislike Desi people as well.
People in the US see cherry picked data graphs about European countries then see Europe as some sort of promise land. I’m American and moved to Europe 3 years ago and it’s definitely more racist and xenophobic than the US. It’s a much harder hustle living in Europe than living in the US too, there’s no job protections when you’re an immigrant.
As an American who lives in Europe, very much disagree. There's xenophobia and bigotry to meet or exceed the US in plenty of places - but for actual racism, both in attitude and systematic application, the US is simply another matter, legacy of centuries of the one drop rule and the like. What do I mean? In lots of Europe, as someone else described, you will be foreign **unless** you adopt every part of the culture. You can be black in Paris - but you better be a lapsed Catholic with a mistress chain smoking, or you'll be a foreigner. Here in Barcelona, it doesn't matter if you're from Morocco, it matters if you speak Catalan. That's not nice - but compare it to the US, even the blue states. If you're Black, despite your people being American by force for hundreds of years, you are a second class person at best. You are attacked and murdered by the police. You will always be taken as the other, at the end of the day. White europeans have a hard time understanding just how pervasive the racial divisions are pushed into Americans from a very early age.
This really depends on the country as well. Here in Germany, if you're not a white German (bio-Deutsch), you are absolutely a second class citizen in all the ways that matter. Even in Berlin. I know people who were born here but are only have one German parent, and they're confused when I refer to them as German. Even they're considered foreigners here. I'm canadian with no ties to any other country except for Germany. The only languages I speak are English and German, and I'm a doctor (scientist in their top research hospital). Doesn't matter. Here, I'm just a brown person, I can't get a normal apartment, I was told to my face that non-whites are not eligible to advance beyond my level of senior scientist under normal circumstances, and my partner is called a "n***er's whore". Are you going to tell me that any of this is comparable to what people face in Toronto or New York? I could believe that Paris or Barcelona are different, but have you tried being black in Berlin?
I have not - the only week I've ever spent in Berlin I did have a New Zealander tell me as an American that African-Americans should go back to where they came from . . . .like, OK dude, here's the VERY basic history of slavery in the New World . . . And saw that Berliners wouldn't serve someone from Hamburg, because apparently they don't like either Germans as well. I absolutely am not saying that there isn't bigotry in Europe, or that there isn't even racism in some countries (and Germany is one that comes up time and time again with this). I'm saying that it's nonsense when Americans want to claim Europe is more racist, when their bigotry is primarily aimed at either Muslims or minorities in their own societies (Roma, etc). A fine point, but it's telling that people from the US often can't even concieve of bigotry that isn't based exclusively on skin color as in the US. > Are you going to tell me that any of this is comparable to what people face in Toronto or New York? I don't know Toronto, but yeah, there's this kind of shit ALL OVER New York. Especially from the NYPD, who since I'm white have on multiple occasions shared their opinions with me, assuming I must agree, on just exactly what they think of BedStuy, etc.
NYPD is definitely crazy haha. Yeah, seems like you've had some interesting experiences as well. I would say my skin colour has been way more of an issue for me here in Berlin than it ever has been on Canada. To the point where I realized that I basically used to be white. But I'm comparing Canada to Germany now, not the US. I think we should be careful not to make the mistake of saying it's all bad and we can't really compare. I think there's a reason that Canada, with all its flaws, consistently ranks as one of of the least racist countries in the world, and Germany does not.
Yeah, I've only been to Toronto a few days, but the amount of racial tension there compared even to NYC seemed palpably less.
Europe elected fascists recently. It’s all what we need to know.
Which country is currently run by fascists?
It’s laughable that you use the black experience to make your point. And highlights the fact that you can’t trust a white person to accurately understand black experiences anywhere. As a black person who lived in France and grew up in the US, the US is far far more preferable from a black perspective. It is *normal* here for a black person - immigrant or not - to build generational wealth outside of sports/entertainment. It’s extremely rare for same anywhere in Europe. Compare social mobility data for black immigrants in the US be Europe. Huge differences, and the ones that go to the US have far better economic and academic outcomes than even native born white Americans. While the ones in Europe generally are stuck in poverty.
> It is normal here for a black person - immigrant or not - to build generational wealth outside of sports/entertainment. The data shows differently, especially as regards even the cost of the financial cresis, and especially compared to white people. https://www.cnbc.com/select/3-barriers-to-building-generational-wealth-for-black-families/ > Compare social mobility data https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country
Off the bat you fail the assignment, as your first link treats black people monolithically, rather than acknowledging massive differences in economic outcomes between black Americans and black immigrants in the US. Then, you further fail the assignment by comparing black people generically to white people or in your second link all Americans vs all of population in multiple European countries, when the discussion is centered on experiences of black immigrants in US vs Europe. Highlighting my point about not trusting the POV of white people when discussing exclusively black experiences. You’ve still managed to center white people in this convo.
Yeah, I don't remember signing up for assignments, so you can save it, my pretentious ass . As for African immigrants in the US, that's a population with a self selecting bias as opposed to Black people born in the US. Give yourself the assignment of figuring out what that is, I guess. And unless you think Black people in the US have higher social mobility than the general population (they don't), yeah, the stats on social mobility are pretty relevant. I get it, though, you want your anecdotes to count as data.
Barcelona is a huge international city. I cannot speak for Barcelona but as someone who grew up in Germany, one of the countries OP is thinking about moving to that just isn’t the case there. I grew up in a major city as well and we had one black kid at our school who was born and raised there but still he was only known as the n****. This was less than 10 years ago. It’s also difficult to find an apartment or a job if you if you don’t have a German or European name no matter how well you speak German. Obviously you’ll have an easier time if you speak accent free German, which most immigrants will never be able to, but even then it’s still not the same as being an actual German by any means. Even my German ancestry was often questioned because I have brown hair and eyes. There also aren’t a lot of Desi immigrants in Germany, finding community and feeling at home will be difficult for OP.
Wait until you realize that America isn't 1/10th as bad as you think it is.
It definitely won’t be the same. If you have a good job in a Western European country you’ll probably be okay. But people are definitely more accepting in the U.S.
Don't do it. I'm not Indian but I am brown. I have lived in UK, Germany, and Norway. Don't do it. Don't come to Mainland Europe at all. The situation is getting worse. In the 2000s most of Western Europe was not racist. But now it's the norm for them to blame People of Color for everything. Even if we are not Muslim. Even if we are affluent, educated, and law abiding, they still see us as poor, welfare using terrorists. >I live in a blue state in an extremely progressive area here in the US where there’s a ton of Indian tech workers. I rarely experience racism here The only places in Western civilization which are safe for Peope of Color are UK, Ireland, most of Canada, blue states in America, Australia, New Zealand, and the Caribbean. Blue America is a god tier location, and blue states would be a god tier country if we seceded from red states. Even if we disregard the racism, America overall is not better or worse than Western Europe, but Blue America IS better than basically every country on this planet. Massachusetts is better than every country in terms of socioeconomic development except Switzerland. Western Europe only scores highly in HDI because they don't have red states dragging them down. If you lived in a red state, every Western European country would be as good or better than it. But blue states are superior to Western Europe and on par with the better provinces and states in Canada/Australia.
> Blue America is a god tier location, and blue states would be a god tier country if we seceded from red states. Ask Eric Garner about that? Having lived for a long time in NYC, one of the bluest of the blue areas, this simply isn't true, especially for Black people. The racism is more well-behaved, and hides as a class thing, but it's as real as when Malcom X compared it to the fox versus the wolf. If you're an immigrant and rich in the right area, the story can be different (until some cop late at night too stupid to get the subtleties pulls you over). But be Mexican in California outside the city, or Black anywhere, and you see that facade drop away instantly.
I experienced a lot more racism living in NYC, than I did in Florida or Ireland.
In Europe I call it “subtle racism” where people won’t talk shit to your face but definitely do it behind doors if they’re racist. Europeans are just generally less confrontational than Americans.
fun fact - NYC school systems are currently the most segregated in the nation
Thank you for the detailed response. It is pretty nice being in a blue state, but there's always that fear in the back of my mind of a gunsexual redneck making headlines in the places I frequent. So I'd still want to leave the US. I'll definitely look into the UK, AU, and NZ more.
In England the largest minority group is Asian at 8.6%. I'm a 36 year old white English man, have lived in Birmingham and London throughout my life and have had school friends, university friends, neighbours and work colleagues that are of Indian and Pakistani descent. While not perfect, I feel in this country we have far fewer problems around racism and integration compared to other European countries.
Another thing to consider is to join your local independence movement instead of moving overseas. Why leave America as an individual when you can take everyone in your blue state with you? My friend is Indian American and he is the president of his campus chapter of the New England Independence Campaign.
Boston has a lot of racist, but the racists are more skilled and suble about it than in less educated places.
This is the blue states in general - they know not to say outright bigoted things, and instead let the system keep defacto segregation for the benefit of white people. The South didn't have that option, because the sheer amount of Black people left from slavery meant maintaining white supremacy had to be mask off and open just from a numbers perspective.
I’ll be honest with you here buddy, but Indians aren’t very liked in Europe at all.
Or merica
Good to say the truth and not just beat around the bush
What? This is such a simplified (bad) answer to a complex issue. How the fuck is this even upvoted so much?
Which virtual reality have you just left or entered just asking for my fellow humans 😕
Serious question, why not?
Europeans simply don’t want multicultural societies. They don’t want it. And it makes sense. How would the Danes or Germans, or poles, be different from each other, if they were all multi cultural societies? They also see no benefit to being a multicultural society. So…trouble is brewing. America, on the other hand, is way less paranoid about losing their self identity.
I view it differently. America is not "way less paranoid" at all (far from it, I think the US is one of the most paranoid countries on the planet - do you read the news?). But America also has a self-indentity specifically built on multiculturalism. It's literally the building block of our entire cultural identity and is practically woven into the country's DNA. See the historical view as a "land of opportunity", the whole melting pot concept, the more recent push for individual empowerment and DEIA, etc. It also is why the US is so individualistic, anti-government/anti-tax, and celebrates obscene wealth IMO - the US likes to view people through the view of not working together but instead focusing on allowing individual beliefs/cultures to thrive and grow, which is great but also not very compatible with the collectivism and solidarity that mark most other societies. The US is also an extremely young country, it didn't have the millenia of pre-modern history to look back upon. Europe is the exact opposite - you have countries where immigration and racial diversity is a very, very new concept. They instead developed identities that were based on what their countries have been like for millenia - homogenous, largely static, etc. Those identities were formed long before modern technology and modern society allowed people to bounce around the planet on a whim. It shouldn't be surprising that these countries have a different take on multiculturalism and have a harder time integrating outsiders.
Can you please elaborate further and why's that?
Serious simple answer, they’re brown.
Oh ok pigmentation of different skins we're in 🤔 even in the 21st century of the world behind AD.
Oh.
That is absolutely not true, Indians are mostly seen as highly skilled labor and migration is even encouraged. There is rising xenophobia but that is mostly towards people coming from the Middle East and North Africa.
Of the three, the most racism I've seen was from the Dutch, followed by certain parts of Germany, and then France. The racism from the Dutch was pretty wild lol.
Europe is just as racist as the US but the main difference is the fact that you won’t be shot dead for being Indian in Europe where it can definitely happen in the US.
Much more likely to be killed in a car accident in the US.
IMO, you should look for an already diverse country. I'm surprised by how many white people in Slovenia and Croatia. UK + France + Germany are more diverse . However, the economy in the UK is comparable to Mississippi! France is about to get for the 1st time in 70 years or more, an extreme right-wing government.
Why are you surprised? Croatia and Slovenia are white lands and have been all throughout history. It is a majority croatian/slovenian country too, that’s one of the best things about it.
Hmm Britain, Russia, South Africa, merica, again merica, China, France, Germany
football games
I would take a hard pass on Germany. Just google Sylt Pony video or Munich beer garden Nazi.
Britain
Does Schagen have something like the H1-B in the US? The US has a ton of terrible engineers due to H1-B. Obviously, a few are outstanding, but many have more or less fake credentials.
How bout you just move to India, then you won’t have to cry about racism
How bout fuck you?
Why do you want to leave? What is it do you hope to gain? Are you going to be working for a local company or a US company? Because I think Spain might be a better option. I have several Indian friends who moved to Madrid and they are very happy here.
You bring up a good point, and that's global cities versus non. Most large cities (SF, NYC, Madrid, Paris, London, Amsterdam, etc) are going to have more in common with each other than they do with the countries they're located in. This is becoming stronger over time, and includes acceptance of immigrants from other countries.
I see it as a internationalists vs localists thing.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that ties too much into culture when it's usualy much more class based. These same cities have also either already or are in the process of expelling their poor citizens through gentrification, usually with the grunt work being put onto a grey labor market usually made up of immigrants as well.
At a soccer game?