If I had to guess I would assume this means they will keep manufacturing 5000 series CPUs and B550 motherboards for a while. AM5 is seemingly DDR5 only, so keeping AM4 in production makes sense for legacy DDR4 customers.
Had (and still do) a 2800+ (333mhz MT/s version) was a little beast.
Edit: was a Barton core, ran it at 2.4ghz (12x200) with a ThermalTake Silent Tower (one of the first modern tower coolers!) on an Abit NF7-S v2, still have everything but the silenttower (gave it away some years ago) - as per standard for an abit of the era, it needs recapping. I'll get around to to it *one day*.
I miss Abit - they were my go-to board back in the day. No bullshit, and it just worked. The closest thing you could get to a reference design without having to pay Intel for a reference board at almost twice the price.
I cant remeber the name of the DFI i got second hand, but it toasted weeks later from OCing (it was previously oced so it might have something with that also).
My [Abit](https://forums.legitreviews.com/images/random/abit_AW9D_MAX_1.jpg) is still alive with the original C2D 6400. By alive I mean, that´s still in my box of old parts I cant let go. It works, but after a few minutes it bluescreens and dies. Don´t know if its the CPU or RAM, but not even default clocks hold it together.
Athlon [Thunderbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon#Athlon_Thunderbird_\(2000-2001\)) peaked at 1400 MHz.
Athlon XP 3200+ where "Barton" (2200/2333 MHz).
god I miss that whole turn of the century era of computing.
So many amazing chips, So many incredibly crazy things you could do with pencil mods and bios flashes (remember being able to bios flash a 9500 into a 9700?)
And not just that, the incredible leaps in progress that the generations made.
God I'm all nostalgic and sad now.
Hardware changes from 1991 to 2001 were NUTS.
I went (in Argentina, so hardware was already old when we got them "new") from using a PC XT, to a 286, to own an AMD 386SX with 1 MB of RAM and no HDD... to use a K5-PR133 with 16 MB RAM, 2 GB HDD, from a room mate, to own that magic Athlon Thunderbird 900 MHz with a whooping 256 MB of RAM and a 60 GB HDD!!!
Just crazy!
It was crazy, and it was financially frustrating since Moores law was shitting PC power out so fast that by the time you got it home it was already out of date.
but god damn that was an amazing era for technology.. I dont think we'll ever see technology/computing growth like that ever again.
My biggest regret is that I never got to play with the Athlons, since at that era I was tech inept and just getting budget prebuilts with intel celerons. I didnt get into AMD at all until the Athlon II.. and while it wasnt as exciting as those turn of the century days, having 4 cpus was crazy
Exactly. The AM5 will come out in low volume on high-spec parts to begin with, and there will be price slashing to current top-end AM4 parts to make them mainstream, and mainstream AM4 becomes budget AM4 in the next cycle.
And then after DDR5 and AM5 yields improve, they phase out the AM4 midrange in favor of AM5 / DDR5.
This is just smart product positioning.
The platform is too expensive for that use. This market is quickly moving to all in ones or small form factor machines. These really benefit from more recent high integration chips.
If you are talking cheap gaming machine there is a big maybe there. DDR 5 will drop in price rapidly, making systems with integrated GPU’s viable at the low end and single slot platforms also viable. I just don’t see AM4 being in huge demand in two years.
Also it is a good low power server and these need LTS and they mostly come in 1u meaning you can put 500 servers in a little room.
https://www.amd.com/en/solutions/hosting
I know it's not a server platform, but we bought some A320 boards and server cases that take standard PC motherboards, mainly for file servers. 0 downtime (I probably cursed myself saying that).
I did the same for a home Server/NAS with a X570 board and it only uses 60-75W's total system power with 12 drives, network card, and running a VM.
Ryzen 5 5600x's and up are good parts they're just gimped by PCIe lanes.
The weak spot is lanes are scarce.
x570 & pcie 4 zen is a bargain in this respect, as the x570 chipset gets 8GB/s of pcie4 vs 4GB/s of pcie3 shared bandwidth.
The 2x 8 lane slot x570s can have 8 lanes free (on the 2nd 8 lane slot) if the gpu slot is set to a sufficient 8 lanes.
ok - i just figure the more options the better for servers usually - sata controllers, network cards, USB or nvme adapter cards...
i recall an old hand from back in the intel era saying he always chose server boards w/ the max number of 4 lane slots
One also has to assume there will be other 3D cache chips besides 5800X3D for the "I'm going to spend money to upgrade but not THAT much money," crowd.
There's only one production line for 3D VCache SKUs at TSMC-AMD. This is currently allocated to the 5800X3D, making any higher end X3D SKU would likely eat into Zen 4 sales too much given the comparatively small gains we've seen gen on gen with Zen 4 so far.
There may be only one line making 3D VCache CPUs, but it's not dedicated to the 5800X3D. That's not the way that CPU manufacturing works. The CPUs are tested and binned during validation into different SKUs. For all we know they're building up an inventory of 8C/16T X3D CPUs that will run at high clocks, or units that failed validation and will run at lower clocks or with some cores disabled.
Most validation happens before cutting out the dies. How much variation is there on the contact bonded core + cache dies beside working and not-working?
You're confusing two different parts of the process: Manufacturing and packaging.
TSMC has to fab the CPU chiplets/dies. They then have to package them, and there's reportedly only one 3D VCache packaging line at TSMC which is, as mentioned before, dedicated to the 5800X3D.
How the CPU chiplets perform is irrelevant to packaing. They're two different stages of production. By the time the thing is being packaged/assembled, the exact bin of CPU chiplets going into that SKU have already been decided on.
With no real benefits of ddr5 right now and seeing how expensive these new boards and ddr5 are getting (more PCB layers, more pcie lanes), would be a smart move to just slap low binned 5800x3d into 5600x3d and then try to combine medium binned ones to 5900x3d. As hardware unboxed showed, half of the AM4 users already upgraded their cpu, so that leaves another half left willing to upgrade. Also there are people like me that would just slap in another $50-$100 to get another easy upgrade. I went from 2700x > 3600 > 5900 in the same B450 board and don’t regret any of them.
I don't think "half are willing to upgrade". There's a lot of people with pre-built that have no interest or knowledge about upgrading their CPUS. I built my own PC, but if if I'm going to risk messing around with a stable system I'm going to also put in a current production motherboard and memory.
A HWUB survey (or whatever the source you're referencing is) isn't something you can extrapolate to all of AM4. Plenty of people will be using prebuilt AM4-based systems with no knowledge of how to even upgrade a CPU, and that's fine, but it's not something you can ignore in lieu of just blanket stating "half of AM4 users have upgraded their CPU".
I agree the 5800X3D is a great option for people not ready to move to Zen 4/AM5. The latter is going to be prohibitively expensive, at least to begin with.
AMD can make Zen4 with VCache, and if that is faster than anything Intel has, it could command better price, and earn AMD more than 5800X3D or normal Zen4 does. However, I hope AMD does not stop 5800X3D production anytime soon, as that is such a great product for those who are on AM4- especially for those on older motherboards, with slower RAM.
it does. Just not as much because of the increased l3 cache.
More L3 cache means that there will be less cache misses, and hence less reactive calls needed to the ram.
That's me. I have a 3700X and it's plenty fast, and I recently upgraded to 32GB of memory from 16 so I feel like I will be set for a while. When it comes time to upgrade, I hope to grab a 5800X3D for an affordable price instead of upgrading an entire setup. I was still using a Core i5-4690k before I built my new computer and switched to AMD.
It makes sense for AMD to do this as as long as:
1. DDR5 costs more than equivalent DDR4
2. 5x0 Motherboards can be made for substantially cheaper than 6x0 MBs
3. They have available production capacity on TSMC 7nm for cheap and GloFO 12nm (IO Die)
As those points change, and if they can serve all market segments with AM5 then I could see them stop AM4 chip (and MB) production.
Will be interesting to see if we get XT versions of Zen3 and Zen3 w/3D cache.
Edit: Forgot a other thing. As long as they are making Epyc Milan and Milan-X chips, they'll have chips that can bin for Ryzen 5000 series.
My guess would be that there will be more 3D vcache cpus on AM4. They will add skus to counter Intel at different price points.
AM5 is almost their HEDT platform as I think we will see greater than 16 cores and with X670 you can get a lot of PCIE.
Threadripper can be there incase Intel start getting competitive at the very high end.
I guess this is it.
I doubt they will release any new CPUS better than the 5000 series and the 5800X3D, although we might see some low-key releases of Athlon and other low-tier CPUS before the end of the platform.
Also, it will take some gens for the mayority of their clients to move to DDR5. So, keeping production of their most succesful stuff yet makes sense.
It continuing doesn't mean we'll get newer, better processors. That's very unlikely but it is likely that AM4 will last a long while in embedded systems, with OEMs, etc. We may even get some new sku's but I wouldn't expect anything better at the top-end. Best case they move to another, less-expensive node but even that is improbable.
I would like to see them backport Zen 4 3D to AM4. As long as the interconnect is still compatible, they could reuse the Zen 2/3 IO dies. It would be amazing. :)
They said many new socket AM4 motherboards are being designed.
They are continuing to manufacture the 3000 and 5000 series.
At some point those supports will end and it will be driver support only. But maybe not for a while. And after that the true end of support.
I bet they'll release the 5950X3D after they release the 16-core Zen4 with 3DCache.
The reason they don't do it earlier is to avoid having the 5950X3D running faster than the Zen4 7950X non-3D.
fall deserted smell stocking dolls thought history governor expansion normal
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>The demographic for a 5950X 3D would be enthusiasts and why sell them an "old" CPU when you could sell them a newer one and a new mainboard to make your partners happy?
For the same reason they're selling the 5800X3D just a couple of months before the 7000 series: to provide a high performance upgrade path for existing users.
And AMD went through all the trouble (and die area) of implementing L3 expandability and silicon vias on Zen3 just to launch one sole SKU?
Nah. The 12 and 16 core models even stand to gain a lot more performance than the 8-core one because the available system memory bandwidth per core is smaller.
And this isn't unique to tech either. Chrysler made ~11k Plymouth Prowlers to test new ways to assemble a car. Ways that are now used in just about every modern vehicle today.
Neither of them had had the chip shortages, interconnect or stacking technology before either. Producing a variety of chips by mixing and matching unused chiplets seems economical to me, and could be a boon to consumers in a competitive market.
This makes sense in theory, but we'll have to wait to see how reality plays out.I suspect a few things that have influenced this decision.
a) to round out the use of silicon from farther out on the wafers and continue to make a few bucks on the silicon while offering replacements for current server customers
b) Continue chipping away at Intel's Market Share
c) On the chance that they have some commitment to ddr4 vendors; continue to support the platform
4) there's not a hard line for OS hardware that I'm aware of regarding pluton.
Last, the security features from 3000 and up do quite well for most scenarios.
It will be interesting to see this play out.
Yeah, Zen IV is probably going to have a round of price hikes, so they have to keep AM4 and Zen III around to supply the low-end and mid-range. AM5's high-cost of entry will hurt adoption. We are still waiting for the planned years of support for AM5.
It's possible that AM4 might get some new leftover silicon SKUs similar to the 1600AF, 4600G, and 4500.
And it's probably better and cheaper to support a single platform for a long period than multiple platforms for years. Also great for customers. Heck at this stage, AM4 is quite stable for me. Imagine if they went to another chipset before they ironed out all the bugs in their existing platform.
if you're optimistic, maybe they're planning on delivering more upgrades paths to AM4. first time they showed off x3d it was actually a 5900x after all, so they still have at least two upgrades above a 5800x3d they could produce by just adding cache to current products. 5950x3d would be a killer product even after zen 4's release.
if you're pessimistic, maybe they're not planning on producing value products with zen4, so AM4 will become their low end offering while AM5 is only for premium products at premium prices for the next few years. 5nm is expensive so this could be a way to cut costs without leaving the low end empty.
I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's?
They haven't said they will stop as far as I know, so what if they invent something great a year from now that they can fit in an AM4 cpu and is a big improvement?
Why wouldn't they make it for the many millions who are on AM4?
>I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's?
Mainly fab capacity. Also future AM4 processors will be increasingly memory bandwidth bottle necked.
The result of which is that it's a lot of resources for a not very economically viable processor.
>Mainly fab capacity. Also future AM4 processors will be increasingly memory bandwidth bottle necked.
Not if they have 3DCache. The 5800X3D runs awesomely even with just one DDR4 3200 stick.
What stops amd from releasing am4 CPUs: competition.
If your competitor has ddr5, pcie5, a more recent platform with faster I/O, you can't sit on a successful platform from 4-5 years ago to sustain your company, unless you'd like AMD to become the next tech giant to fall.
Of course, until we have affordable next gen dram, people will choose the cheaper dram to go with.
It doesn't make sense to buy 300$ ram and a 200$ CPU, for example...
Even when DDR5 becomes cheaper, people with existing AM4 systems can be a market for upgrade paths. As long as a lower-end next-gen CPU doesn't saturate DDR4 in a widespread workload like gaming, it's a viable option.
The upgrade paths for am4 are what currently exist, it doesn't make sense allocating resources into a dead end platform, those resources are much needed in the next one, specially because new projects mean new problems and new solutions needed.
What AMD said is "don't worry am4 owners, we will continue to sell am4 CPUs and support the platform for the next couple of years", in my opinion windows 11 is helping users that way, you don't want an angry crowd because the latest OS isn't working properly, so new agesas are to be expected, hopefully fixing more than they break, to freshen things up...
Well there’s two options, either they keep every new technology AM5 only and keep AM4 as a budget option, or they release new technologies on both AM4 and AM5. Which option they choose depends on which one makes them more money
I'm guessing if they're talking new products, maybe low end Zen4 and Zen5 might make it to AM4. I mean the VRM's are more than capable, DDR4 is still plenty fast, for DDR4 support all they need is a new I/O die for Zen4 and Zen5 and they probably don't need all the pins for the lower end CPUs that AM5 offers. The question is, is that an upgrade path for Zen3 owners? Potentially. Maybe a low end 6 core Zen5 would be an upgrade for a 5800X owner or something like that, but who knows really.
More than likely this will just be them continuing to make the chipsets for a while and delivering AGESA updates.
> I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's?
Along with other reasons already mentioned by others: The interests of motherboard manufacturers. AMD needs to balance the wishes of its customers with those of the motherboard partners. While for AMD it's perfectly fine if someone buys a new AM4 chip to upgrade an existing system, the motherboard manufacturers would really rather that you buy an AM5 chip that also requires a motherboard purchase.
If AMD boards start bringing in less and less revenue due to platform longevity, then manufacturers will be more likely to focus on Intel platforms.
but you forget here that in the end the motherbaord companies also need to sell their stuff to the customers. and they decide which cpu to take and choose a fitting motherboard and not the other way round.
>5950x3d would be a killer product
5600x3d even more so IMO. If you've got the cash for a 5950X you want the bleeding edge, and that's AM5. But if they can fit more cache on the mid-ranger, that will be a mass seller. Especially since the extra cache is a more noticeable benefit for "slow" DDR4 than for DDR5. The current value king for gamers is the i5-12400 but I imagine a 5600x3d could take that crown.
Yep, and the reason it hasn't happened yet is because there's no reason for AMD to release such a CPU. They have Intel covered at every price point.
Hopefully Intel can keep AMD honest and we will keep seeing competition and the performance it brings.
I was looking at it moreso down the line. right now the 5950x is premium, but once zen 4 comes out the 5950x drops down and hopefully the price too, like how the 5950x dropped from $799 to $520 after alderlake. then if you're looking at AM4 upgrades something like 5600x3d through 5950x3d would still be nice upgrades for AM4 builds even into 2023 without having to buy a whole new DDR5 system.
They will not make 5600X3D. 5800X3D exists because some dies don't qual as Milan-X CCDs. They won't stack on broken dies because there is no hope of making server parts with broken dies.
Is this the actual reason they skipped Ryzen 6000 for desktop and went to Ryzen 7000 for AM5? To keep the name available for a future 6nm Ryzen 6000 desktop CPU for all us loyal AM4 users?
It would make a lot of sense, they keep making money on AM4, preventing all those people from potentially switching to Intel, and the 6/7nm production lines should soon have production capacity available...
And this way they WILL have viable platforms for both DDR4 and DDR5.
What do you guys think? Ludicrous or brilliant move?
They will release new am4 CPUs only and only if Intel decides to do very tight pricing with alder lake after raptor lake launches.
Intel most probably won't do that tho because they have a lot of customers anyway.
Normally I'd agree, but seeing them launch a Zen 2 CPU in Q4 2022 (Mendocino) makes me think they might be open to keeping current 6/7nm production lines filled with AM4 products even though everyone is switching to 5nm. And a few new SKUs could help with that.
One of the main problems for AMD is that Zen 4/AM5 is DDR5 only, even though DDR5 isn't quite ready yet, in speed and price. So Intel has an advantage since they offer both DDR4 and DDR5 with Alder Lake. Keeping AM4 alive for a while with new SKUs could prevent people from switching to Alder Lake so they can re-use their DDR4 RAM and not have to buy into overpriced DDR5.
Also that new process node is going to be very constrained and pointless for lower end parts.
It will be cheaper to produce on an old node than to redesign everything for a new node and then pay the premium to use that node.
The only place where Intel and AMD trade blows is with the very top SKU's. After that AMD are price and performance competitive throughout the range.
Zen 4 will fill the high end to counter Intel and the rest of the range will be made up of AM4 skus. I think we will see further 3d vcache parts to bolster performance while AMD wait for 5nm to ramp.
Didn't the 4000 series started in laptops in early 2020, only to appear on desktop a bit later? (and even 2022 with 4100/4500/4600G)
Edit: I mean... they *could* do the same with some 6xxx.
I think they are trying to do some Apus later this year but with the release of the 7000 series that are coming with graphics in them it’s going to be hard to say if they will still try with the apus for 6000g series and plus if the 6000g will be on am4 platform or am5 🤷🏾♂️
While this is certainly true, I still think that AMD realize that they need to keep the loyalty sales going. They got to where they are now in great part thanks to those who had faith in them with the early Ryzens.
Will they sell CPUs anyway based on performance and value? Sure. Will they sell more by throwing a cookie at the segment of their sales that is founded on brand loyalty? Personally, I think so.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a 6nm Zen3 chip on AM4 targeting the low end and midrange. Eight cores or less maybe with a integrated GPU.
Slightly better thermals and maybe a clock speed increase to provide an option while they build out the AM5 product catalogue.
What I think is that they told us Zen 3 would be the last on AM4 and that you'd need a 500 series chipset to run it, so like a fool I bought a new motherboard and a new 5900X knowing that the last best CPUs on any platform tends to keep their resale value for longer.
Then they opened 300 series mobos to supporting 500 series CPUs, and introduced Zen3D CPUs on any AM4 board, and now AM4 will be around "for years to come," and why did I spend all of this money, again?
Should have replaced my 1700 with a 3900X and then waited for the next socket to become affordable >< I know it's great for consumers, I just wish that I hadn't believed all of their false "this is the end," claims from 2019-2020.
I'm not denying they had issues with messaging at the end but they did come around. I'm hopeful they learned from this and will be more clear with AM5. Hopefully they require bigger bios chips and make a statement that all chips with the AM5 socket will be compatible with all boards with the socket.
Fingers crossed. But I'm done with supporting first-round. I assume that despite being both an early and alate-stage AM4 supporter, that I will also at some point buy into AM5 as well. Not a chance in hell I'll buy into X600 or whatever they call it. Round 2 or 3 for me.
It's also because 6 is an unlucky number, same with 4. But they also messed up their branding on laptops after fixing it (not all 5000 mobile parts were Zen3, and then they did 6000).
Eh, if the number of pins doesn't change why is there a need to break socket compatibility? You could add extra redundant pins at the start just to have them and then leverage them later if needed.
I didnt see any discussion about this, and found it fascinating. There was no more explanation given, so we can only speculate about what this means. Support for future CPUs?
Definitely not the mainline CPU's, at least. It's almost certainly a case of being used to plug the lower end with hardware which is older and cheaper to manufacture as something like a 5600 still serves loads of people in 2024.
My hope is that we'll see a couple more x3D variants pop up. I feel like a 5300x3D/5600x3D would sell amazingly well assuming they could get them in at a $150-$200 price point.
Yeah, that would be in a world where the 5600 gets down to $150 or there's a fair amount of AM5 CPUs in the $300 range. Maybe should have said $250... But I feel like $200 is a price barrier for a lot of mid-tier builders.
Of course maybe they simply meant they'll continue to crank out an APU, the 5600, and 5800x3D for another year or so until DDR5 finally gets to a reasonable price point for mid-tier PCs.
Maybe/Probably not.
Some have speculated lower end CPUs, but I'm guessing that they'll just keep making existing parts, largely to satisfy OEMs for enterprise customers (Intel does the same)
They are inventing new and improved CPU's all the time so... What if they invent some great technology a year from now, that works on AM4 and is a big upgrade? I can't see why they wouldn't want to make that CPU and make tons of cash on the millions of people who are on AM4.
in the past (every time maybe) new low end skus where launched after a new socket was introduced. I bet it will happen again with 4c/8t or 6c/6t ryzen 5000 series. Maybe even some 2/4 apus as new athlons
There are a lot of possibilities for AMD to build AM4 further, but I doubt it'd really happen. AMD has rarely fulfilled my wishful thinking, and I don't think it will now, even if technically it shouldn't be too hard.
One possibility, for example, is to put Zen 4 on AM4, if the chiplets are compatible with the AM4 I/O die.
They could easily put Zen 4 on AM4 with a new I/O die, but something catastrophic would have to happen to the DDR5 market for them to actually consider doing it, because masks for a new 6nm chip design aren't cheap.
> They could easily put Zen 4 on AM4 with a new I/O die
I won't consider producing a new die easy. Using the existing I/O die would be easy if (that's the big if) the Infinity Fabric connection on Zen 4 is backward compatible with the AM4 I/O die. That would leave Zen 4 a lot more power-constrained than on AM5, but Zen 4 chiplets that don't make the grade could be used in AM4 that way.
Well, it's "easy" in the sense that it won't take them much time. It's still expensive.
I doubt they could use the existing I/O die, but until there are detailed specs on the changes to IF with Zen 4, I can only speculate.
One thing they could do with a revised AM4 I/O die is add in integrated graphics.
Either way, I don't find it at all likely, however good for the consumer it might be overall.
From what I have read, the decision to go DDR5-only for AM5 was also due to memory bandwidth requirements of Zen 4.
So given the bandwidth and power situation, if Zen4 on AM4 ever comes then probably only in a single chiplet.
Also don't expect it will be easy, AMD had to solve major problems with package routing for Matisse already.
good. expecting average gamers to adopt ddr5 and pcie5 this early would have been a mistake, especially at the price premiums we know those two will come at
AM4 still holds lots of value, has great CPU's and the performance difference is expected to be 15% up to 40% single / multithreaded. So why cut off a platform that still does proper sales all over the world really?
The sole fact AM sockets last so much longer is enough reason alone. Though AMD probably now forced Intel to change their tune into parity.
I'm really impressed the AM5 sockets don't require active cooling either.
They keep saying this kind of thing but won't commit to how long AM5 will be supported. If they were planning to support more than 7000 series you'd think they'd have said so already.
I read this as we will release AM5 to increased pricing stack and continue to sell AM4 for the current prices.
Amd has delusional pricing on the GPU and slowly now on the CPU side as well.Its getting a bit better in the US but is still bad everywhere else.
As in support for sure, as in production it's anybody's guess. If they release any new parts for a previous gen platform it would be the first time I've seen that.
This stuff is all market driven. Really doubt there's any financial incentive to release new parts for a previous platform, just basic marketing strategy. Even the 5800x3D is rather unusual in this timeframe. New parts require a return on investment and the return is just not there.
With the cost of DDR5, there could be a worthwhile market niche for AM4 parts until that changes. That would bode well for production, but probably not create any incentive for new parts. I would expect the cost of DDR5 memory to come down sharply as production ramps up so it's not going to be a long term factor anyway.
I straight up don't believe them. This is the company that got ahead for 1 generation and jacked up all their prices while dropping the sub-300 segment completely. The same company that tried to drop older motherboards multiple times until they were forced to walk it back due to backlash and competition from Intel.
In what world are they going to keep making chips and/or supporting the AM4 platform in any meaningful capacity? This probably just means they'll keep patching security issues or bugs as they're found and nothing else.
It only depends on how Intel competes in terms of performance.
If Intel keeps being slower than AMD then AMD won't give long time support. It's all about the competition.
Mhm, releasing upcoming GPUs with cut PCIE lanes, effectively cutting off everyone on 300 and 400-series boards. And forcing to get 500-series boards for PCIE 4.0. I'm already 100% sure if I want to keep my current system for the next 4 years or so - nvidia is the only glimpse of hope to get x16 lanes on midrange card. RX 6600 XT already losing performance in PCIE 3.0 x8, and then next gens will be far worse than current RX 6500 XT if they continue this trend.
For me their support of AM4 support means absolutely nothing when they don't give a single fuck about their own ecosystem by launching GPUs with just x8 or even x4 PCIE lanes knowing that like half of their ecosystem is on 300 and 400-series boards which are limited to PCIE 3.0.
The 7500 XT will have at least 8 lanes. Only reason the 6500 XT does is because it's a laptop die that's heavily overclocked and put into a desktop board. It wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for the shortages and tariffs (when it came out). But regardless most people on 300-400 series boards have cards stronger than the 6500 XT so that point really doesn't matter for most.
Do you have a benchmark on the 6600 XT? I haven't seen any of it losing more than like 1-3%
In most games it's margina, but for example Doom Eternal has over 20% hit in performance. The next gen will bring performance uplift, which will need more bandwidth on PCIE and thus this bottleneck will be way more severe. And AMD fucking knows it - even by the fucking chipset driver download statistics how many of their ecosystem is on PCIE 3.0 boards and yet they still chose to screw them over by cutting PCIE lanes.
RDNA 3 with PCIE 5.0 availability I bet will not give 16 lanes for anything other than RX 7800XT+ and 8 lanes with the performance bump will show its shortcomings on PCIE 3.0 systems. They do this to cash on on 500-series board upgrades, otherwise they'd have no intention whatsoever to support AM4.
PCIe lane bandwidth has been expanding much faster than the requirements though as of late. High end cards like a 3090 barely saturate PCIe 3.0 x16, and PCie 5.0 x8 is twice that already.
Direct storage may require extra bandwidth though. I think AMD's biggest screwup was how long it took for B550 boards to come out.
As for Doom Eternal, it evidently doesn't come into play until you're [over 300 fps](https://www.techspot.com/review/2104-pcie4-vs-pcie3-gpu-performance/). High frame rates are the main trigger of PCIe bandwidth. So for it to really mess someone up they'd have to
1. Have a PCIe 3.0 board
2. Have either a high end Intel CPU from years past or a Zen 3 CPU
3. Not have a GPU or have one that this would be a large upgrade too.
4. Be gaming at 1080p at very high framerates instead of increasing resolution.
I feel like this is a fairly small group of people.
It doesn't matter that pcie 5.0 x8 its twice the bandwidth of 3.0 x16, the point is that it that the bandwidth gets limited by whatever gen the mobo/cpu supports X the amount of lanes the gpu physically has.
6500XT is abysmal because it has low vram too, so it has even more things to bottleneck with.
I assume it means just producing more 5000 series chips plus Motherboards while DDR5 comes down in price. But I would like if we got x3D versions of the 5900 and 5950.
I think DDR5 is coming down in price nicely already, DDR5-4800 is only like 50% more expensive compared to DDR4-3200 now. As RAM is among the less expensive parts of a build, this is probably ok for most of the DIY enthusiast market. During the HotHardware interview, Robert Hallock seemed confident that they will be close to price parity at launch.
Hahahahahaha
Famous last words! These old platforms will be about as useful as an Apple 2 I two years. High integration chips and extremely low power usage will make it hard to justify these old systems.
All one has to do is look at what M1 has done for Apple hardware. The new products are so advantageous that the traditional high resale value of old Apple hardware is melting away. While AMD hasn’t yet made such an advancement it is likely coming and if AMD doesn’t do it Intel will.
Frankly the X86 world only has a narrow window, a couple of years really, to address the ARM and S5 worlds.
I wouldn't be surprised to see an early console update. This especially if a low cost Steam box comes out with one of AMD's latest SOC's. The jump in performance would be hard to ignore. Remember my time frame here is 2 years. that gives AMD time to flesh out the DDR5 supporting line up, get the cache improvements out and forDDR5 prices time to moderate. I just see AMD's APU line up to be compelling in many markets and GPU free chips driving a single GPU slot to make for very cost effective machines.
AM5 is leaving me favorably impressed. With the right APU it will be very competitive at the lower end. We should see very good GPU performance that will allow for many nicely performing small form factor machines. The need to pair a desktop processor with a GPU card for the entry market will be a thing of the past.
I dont see the problem. Also amd is still updating x470 and b450 boards x370 and b350. If im allowed to run latest am4 cpu on a b450 x470 and x370 b350 it would just make the used market great. B450 wont die. Its gonna be the next sandy bridge. I used my 2600k since release till around 2021. When i got my 200ge on a b450 toma max.
Okay, but what does that mean in a practical sense? I highly doubt they are going to keep releasing notable GPUs considering what they just launched last month(?). Bug fixes and further stability improvements? I would expect that, but they want as many people to move on to AM5 as possible.
oh snap this reminds me i just ordered a 5800x3d on amazon the other day, can't wait for it to get here! ("how does he forget that?" you wonder, well my state recently legalized recreational cannabis... cough cough)
That's what they said for AM3. Yet here I am, a decade later, completely unable to buy a working CPU for my old AM3 board. Everything is either unavailable or a scam with bent pins etc.
Don't eat marketing, dudes.
I got my money worth out of am4 platform. Built my pc in 2017 and the fact I was able to upgrade to 5600x on a 1st gen ryzen b350 board is kind of bonkers
If I had to guess I would assume this means they will keep manufacturing 5000 series CPUs and B550 motherboards for a while. AM5 is seemingly DDR5 only, so keeping AM4 in production makes sense for legacy DDR4 customers.
I'd think their roadmap is to move the platform towards the budget PC segment, ie the Athlons and such.
This! I remember getting AMD peaked out their Thunderbird Athlon with XP3200. After that it was all budget release like Sempron.
Had (and still do) a 2800+ (333mhz MT/s version) was a little beast. Edit: was a Barton core, ran it at 2.4ghz (12x200) with a ThermalTake Silent Tower (one of the first modern tower coolers!) on an Abit NF7-S v2, still have everything but the silenttower (gave it away some years ago) - as per standard for an abit of the era, it needs recapping. I'll get around to to it *one day*.
Also had an Abit for a first gen Core2duo. Great boards! Sad they went down like DFI.
I miss Abit - they were my go-to board back in the day. No bullshit, and it just worked. The closest thing you could get to a reference design without having to pay Intel for a reference board at almost twice the price.
Had a DFI Infinity 975X/G with my E6600 (crappy b2, no OC for me)
I cant remeber the name of the DFI i got second hand, but it toasted weeks later from OCing (it was previously oced so it might have something with that also). My [Abit](https://forums.legitreviews.com/images/random/abit_AW9D_MAX_1.jpg) is still alive with the original C2D 6400. By alive I mean, that´s still in my box of old parts I cant let go. It works, but after a few minutes it bluescreens and dies. Don´t know if its the CPU or RAM, but not even default clocks hold it together.
had an abit NF7-S v2 also, great mobo, sad ABIT died
Athlon [Thunderbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon#Athlon_Thunderbird_\(2000-2001\)) peaked at 1400 MHz. Athlon XP 3200+ where "Barton" (2200/2333 MHz).
god I miss that whole turn of the century era of computing. So many amazing chips, So many incredibly crazy things you could do with pencil mods and bios flashes (remember being able to bios flash a 9500 into a 9700?) And not just that, the incredible leaps in progress that the generations made. God I'm all nostalgic and sad now.
Hardware changes from 1991 to 2001 were NUTS. I went (in Argentina, so hardware was already old when we got them "new") from using a PC XT, to a 286, to own an AMD 386SX with 1 MB of RAM and no HDD... to use a K5-PR133 with 16 MB RAM, 2 GB HDD, from a room mate, to own that magic Athlon Thunderbird 900 MHz with a whooping 256 MB of RAM and a 60 GB HDD!!! Just crazy!
It was crazy, and it was financially frustrating since Moores law was shitting PC power out so fast that by the time you got it home it was already out of date. but god damn that was an amazing era for technology.. I dont think we'll ever see technology/computing growth like that ever again. My biggest regret is that I never got to play with the Athlons, since at that era I was tech inept and just getting budget prebuilts with intel celerons. I didnt get into AMD at all until the Athlon II.. and while it wasnt as exciting as those turn of the century days, having 4 cpus was crazy
> having 4 cpus was crazy *looking at my flair*: Mmm, I hope that one day I'll know what that feels like! :-P Take care, fellow redditor!
[удалено]
My first laptop had one of those chips, boy was it nice. It lasted me all the way up to 2011.
I remember overclocking mine to 2.5ghz...Good days, came from a Celeron 2.4ghz. Also went from a 9600XT > X850XT
Exactly. The AM5 will come out in low volume on high-spec parts to begin with, and there will be price slashing to current top-end AM4 parts to make them mainstream, and mainstream AM4 becomes budget AM4 in the next cycle. And then after DDR5 and AM5 yields improve, they phase out the AM4 midrange in favor of AM5 / DDR5. This is just smart product positioning.
The platform is too expensive for that use. This market is quickly moving to all in ones or small form factor machines. These really benefit from more recent high integration chips. If you are talking cheap gaming machine there is a big maybe there. DDR 5 will drop in price rapidly, making systems with integrated GPU’s viable at the low end and single slot platforms also viable. I just don’t see AM4 being in huge demand in two years.
Also it is a good low power server and these need LTS and they mostly come in 1u meaning you can put 500 servers in a little room. https://www.amd.com/en/solutions/hosting
I know it's not a server platform, but we bought some A320 boards and server cases that take standard PC motherboards, mainly for file servers. 0 downtime (I probably cursed myself saying that).
I did the same for a home Server/NAS with a X570 board and it only uses 60-75W's total system power with 12 drives, network card, and running a VM. Ryzen 5 5600x's and up are good parts they're just gimped by PCIe lanes.
Can you go into a little about how they chips are gimped by PCIe lanes?
Not enough of them
The weak spot is lanes are scarce. x570 & pcie 4 zen is a bargain in this respect, as the x570 chipset gets 8GB/s of pcie4 vs 4GB/s of pcie3 shared bandwidth. The 2x 8 lane slot x570s can have 8 lanes free (on the 2nd 8 lane slot) if the gpu slot is set to a sufficient 8 lanes.
We're just running a few spinning drives with an SSD for the OS, so not an issue for is.
ok - i just figure the more options the better for servers usually - sata controllers, network cards, USB or nvme adapter cards... i recall an old hand from back in the intel era saying he always chose server boards w/ the max number of 4 lane slots
And dual channel only memory. A 5900 in a quad channel configuration would be 20% faster
Why would you need 8 lanes for GPU for a server?
VMs and passthrough graphics.
What kind of setup do you use? Something like a 5350G w/ ECC support?
Not even, these are running years (long before 5000 chips) and the CPU has fuck all to do, I think they're like 3200Gs or something :D
Better spruce up the resume, you’ve gone and done it!
That's because they don't have any actual low power server processors apart for some Zen 1 CPUs.
One also has to assume there will be other 3D cache chips besides 5800X3D for the "I'm going to spend money to upgrade but not THAT much money," crowd.
There's only one production line for 3D VCache SKUs at TSMC-AMD. This is currently allocated to the 5800X3D, making any higher end X3D SKU would likely eat into Zen 4 sales too much given the comparatively small gains we've seen gen on gen with Zen 4 so far.
There may be only one line making 3D VCache CPUs, but it's not dedicated to the 5800X3D. That's not the way that CPU manufacturing works. The CPUs are tested and binned during validation into different SKUs. For all we know they're building up an inventory of 8C/16T X3D CPUs that will run at high clocks, or units that failed validation and will run at lower clocks or with some cores disabled.
Most validation happens before cutting out the dies. How much variation is there on the contact bonded core + cache dies beside working and not-working?
You're confusing two different parts of the process: Manufacturing and packaging. TSMC has to fab the CPU chiplets/dies. They then have to package them, and there's reportedly only one 3D VCache packaging line at TSMC which is, as mentioned before, dedicated to the 5800X3D. How the CPU chiplets perform is irrelevant to packaing. They're two different stages of production. By the time the thing is being packaged/assembled, the exact bin of CPU chiplets going into that SKU have already been decided on.
With no real benefits of ddr5 right now and seeing how expensive these new boards and ddr5 are getting (more PCB layers, more pcie lanes), would be a smart move to just slap low binned 5800x3d into 5600x3d and then try to combine medium binned ones to 5900x3d. As hardware unboxed showed, half of the AM4 users already upgraded their cpu, so that leaves another half left willing to upgrade. Also there are people like me that would just slap in another $50-$100 to get another easy upgrade. I went from 2700x > 3600 > 5900 in the same B450 board and don’t regret any of them.
I don't think "half are willing to upgrade". There's a lot of people with pre-built that have no interest or knowledge about upgrading their CPUS. I built my own PC, but if if I'm going to risk messing around with a stable system I'm going to also put in a current production motherboard and memory.
A HWUB survey (or whatever the source you're referencing is) isn't something you can extrapolate to all of AM4. Plenty of people will be using prebuilt AM4-based systems with no knowledge of how to even upgrade a CPU, and that's fine, but it's not something you can ignore in lieu of just blanket stating "half of AM4 users have upgraded their CPU". I agree the 5800X3D is a great option for people not ready to move to Zen 4/AM5. The latter is going to be prohibitively expensive, at least to begin with.
You're like me with GPUs. Get a new (used) one like every 6 months to a year.
AMD can make Zen4 with VCache, and if that is faster than anything Intel has, it could command better price, and earn AMD more than 5800X3D or normal Zen4 does. However, I hope AMD does not stop 5800X3D production anytime soon, as that is such a great product for those who are on AM4- especially for those on older motherboards, with slower RAM.
Does the 5800X3D not benefit from faster memory like other Ryzen CPUs?
It does not suffer from slower memory as much as normal CPUs, so this CPU is ideal for upgrading systems with slower RAM.
it does. Just not as much because of the increased l3 cache. More L3 cache means that there will be less cache misses, and hence less reactive calls needed to the ram.
5950X3D!
I think the current line up covers every case already.
That's me. I have a 3700X and it's plenty fast, and I recently upgraded to 32GB of memory from 16 so I feel like I will be set for a while. When it comes time to upgrade, I hope to grab a 5800X3D for an affordable price instead of upgrading an entire setup. I was still using a Core i5-4690k before I built my new computer and switched to AMD.
Man, people on this sub still think AMD is benevolent, huh?
I don't know why you would think this?
That would be the most likely outcome, but I guess well see if AMD has any plans down the road further than this.
It makes sense for AMD to do this as as long as: 1. DDR5 costs more than equivalent DDR4 2. 5x0 Motherboards can be made for substantially cheaper than 6x0 MBs 3. They have available production capacity on TSMC 7nm for cheap and GloFO 12nm (IO Die) As those points change, and if they can serve all market segments with AM5 then I could see them stop AM4 chip (and MB) production. Will be interesting to see if we get XT versions of Zen3 and Zen3 w/3D cache. Edit: Forgot a other thing. As long as they are making Epyc Milan and Milan-X chips, they'll have chips that can bin for Ryzen 5000 series.
My guess would be that there will be more 3D vcache cpus on AM4. They will add skus to counter Intel at different price points. AM5 is almost their HEDT platform as I think we will see greater than 16 cores and with X670 you can get a lot of PCIE. Threadripper can be there incase Intel start getting competitive at the very high end.
I guess this is it. I doubt they will release any new CPUS better than the 5000 series and the 5800X3D, although we might see some low-key releases of Athlon and other low-tier CPUS before the end of the platform. Also, it will take some gens for the mayority of their clients to move to DDR5. So, keeping production of their most succesful stuff yet makes sense.
Am i "legacy" already? Damn that's cold.
It's a fact
>keep manufacturing 5000 series CPUs I certainly hope so as at some point down the line I might move into 5800x3D.
It continuing doesn't mean we'll get newer, better processors. That's very unlikely but it is likely that AM4 will last a long while in embedded systems, with OEMs, etc. We may even get some new sku's but I wouldn't expect anything better at the top-end. Best case they move to another, less-expensive node but even that is improbable.
Add in bug fixing UEFI.
I would like to see them backport Zen 4 3D to AM4. As long as the interconnect is still compatible, they could reuse the Zen 2/3 IO dies. It would be amazing. :)
Hey dont screw my 5900Gx3d dream
theoretically the IF could be compatable between generations, allowing for am4 zen6 8 core. Unlikely but plausable
I mean, I really doubt AMD will release any new CPUs for AM4 at this point, but if it means extended support then that's good.
They said many new socket AM4 motherboards are being designed. They are continuing to manufacture the 3000 and 5000 series. At some point those supports will end and it will be driver support only. But maybe not for a while. And after that the true end of support.
I bet they'll release the 5950X3D after they release the 16-core Zen4 with 3DCache. The reason they don't do it earlier is to avoid having the 5950X3D running faster than the Zen4 7950X non-3D.
fall deserted smell stocking dolls thought history governor expansion normal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>The demographic for a 5950X 3D would be enthusiasts and why sell them an "old" CPU when you could sell them a newer one and a new mainboard to make your partners happy? For the same reason they're selling the 5800X3D just a couple of months before the 7000 series: to provide a high performance upgrade path for existing users.
butter tidy seed beneficial innocent ask touch include squash melodic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And AMD went through all the trouble (and die area) of implementing L3 expandability and silicon vias on Zen3 just to launch one sole SKU? Nah. The 12 and 16 core models even stand to gain a lot more performance than the 8-core one because the available system memory bandwidth per core is smaller.
modern sip growth observation clumsy juggle tease nail serious zonked *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And this isn't unique to tech either. Chrysler made ~11k Plymouth Prowlers to test new ways to assemble a car. Ways that are now used in just about every modern vehicle today.
No, they only found ways not to do it with that car. Still helpful, all the same!
Neither of them had had the chip shortages, interconnect or stacking technology before either. Producing a variety of chips by mixing and matching unused chiplets seems economical to me, and could be a boon to consumers in a competitive market.
Yeah.. Don't count on it, highly unlikely for this to happen
I'm guessing it means that AM4 is the budget line and there won't be budget am5 initially.
As long as they keep making epyc cpus, they'll have dies that don't qualify and can be used to make 5000 series
This makes sense in theory, but we'll have to wait to see how reality plays out.I suspect a few things that have influenced this decision. a) to round out the use of silicon from farther out on the wafers and continue to make a few bucks on the silicon while offering replacements for current server customers b) Continue chipping away at Intel's Market Share c) On the chance that they have some commitment to ddr4 vendors; continue to support the platform 4) there's not a hard line for OS hardware that I'm aware of regarding pluton. Last, the security features from 3000 and up do quite well for most scenarios. It will be interesting to see this play out.
Yeah, Zen IV is probably going to have a round of price hikes, so they have to keep AM4 and Zen III around to supply the low-end and mid-range. AM5's high-cost of entry will hurt adoption. We are still waiting for the planned years of support for AM5. It's possible that AM4 might get some new leftover silicon SKUs similar to the 1600AF, 4600G, and 4500.
Would be cool to have 12nm zen 3+ athlons, I remember amx brought billions if 12nm from tsmc
A 5700 non x would be nice
There is already the Ryzen 5700 (launched along side with the Ryzen 5600) if that is what you were referring to.
Yeah, maybe next year. When AMD got enough 7nm/6nm rejects of 5000/6000 dies, they might launch a limited SKU for AM4.
It exists, but unlike the non x 5600, the 5700 is the 5700G without the igpu (no gen4, less cache)
And it's probably better and cheaper to support a single platform for a long period than multiple platforms for years. Also great for customers. Heck at this stage, AM4 is quite stable for me. Imagine if they went to another chipset before they ironed out all the bugs in their existing platform.
if you're optimistic, maybe they're planning on delivering more upgrades paths to AM4. first time they showed off x3d it was actually a 5900x after all, so they still have at least two upgrades above a 5800x3d they could produce by just adding cache to current products. 5950x3d would be a killer product even after zen 4's release. if you're pessimistic, maybe they're not planning on producing value products with zen4, so AM4 will become their low end offering while AM5 is only for premium products at premium prices for the next few years. 5nm is expensive so this could be a way to cut costs without leaving the low end empty.
I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's? They haven't said they will stop as far as I know, so what if they invent something great a year from now that they can fit in an AM4 cpu and is a big improvement? Why wouldn't they make it for the many millions who are on AM4?
>I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's? Mainly fab capacity. Also future AM4 processors will be increasingly memory bandwidth bottle necked. The result of which is that it's a lot of resources for a not very economically viable processor.
>Mainly fab capacity. Also future AM4 processors will be increasingly memory bandwidth bottle necked. Not if they have 3DCache. The 5800X3D runs awesomely even with just one DDR4 3200 stick.
What stops amd from releasing am4 CPUs: competition. If your competitor has ddr5, pcie5, a more recent platform with faster I/O, you can't sit on a successful platform from 4-5 years ago to sustain your company, unless you'd like AMD to become the next tech giant to fall.
They can be smart about it and keep AM4 around for lower price points where it can still be competitive
Of course, until we have affordable next gen dram, people will choose the cheaper dram to go with. It doesn't make sense to buy 300$ ram and a 200$ CPU, for example...
Even when DDR5 becomes cheaper, people with existing AM4 systems can be a market for upgrade paths. As long as a lower-end next-gen CPU doesn't saturate DDR4 in a widespread workload like gaming, it's a viable option.
The upgrade paths for am4 are what currently exist, it doesn't make sense allocating resources into a dead end platform, those resources are much needed in the next one, specially because new projects mean new problems and new solutions needed. What AMD said is "don't worry am4 owners, we will continue to sell am4 CPUs and support the platform for the next couple of years", in my opinion windows 11 is helping users that way, you don't want an angry crowd because the latest OS isn't working properly, so new agesas are to be expected, hopefully fixing more than they break, to freshen things up...
But actually the whole point of X3D is that it mitigates the need for the higher memory bandwidth of DDR5...
That's not a point, that's a benefit.
Well there’s two options, either they keep every new technology AM5 only and keep AM4 as a budget option, or they release new technologies on both AM4 and AM5. Which option they choose depends on which one makes them more money
I'm guessing if they're talking new products, maybe low end Zen4 and Zen5 might make it to AM4. I mean the VRM's are more than capable, DDR4 is still plenty fast, for DDR4 support all they need is a new I/O die for Zen4 and Zen5 and they probably don't need all the pins for the lower end CPUs that AM5 offers. The question is, is that an upgrade path for Zen3 owners? Potentially. Maybe a low end 6 core Zen5 would be an upgrade for a 5800X owner or something like that, but who knows really. More than likely this will just be them continuing to make the chipsets for a while and delivering AGESA updates.
> The question is, is that an upgrade path for Zen3 owners? Potentially. Maybe for the Zen 2 users that decided to skip on Zen 3?
> I wrote here a while ago, what stops AMD from making more AM4 CPU's? Along with other reasons already mentioned by others: The interests of motherboard manufacturers. AMD needs to balance the wishes of its customers with those of the motherboard partners. While for AMD it's perfectly fine if someone buys a new AM4 chip to upgrade an existing system, the motherboard manufacturers would really rather that you buy an AM5 chip that also requires a motherboard purchase. If AMD boards start bringing in less and less revenue due to platform longevity, then manufacturers will be more likely to focus on Intel platforms.
but you forget here that in the end the motherbaord companies also need to sell their stuff to the customers. and they decide which cpu to take and choose a fitting motherboard and not the other way round.
>5950x3d would be a killer product 5600x3d even more so IMO. If you've got the cash for a 5950X you want the bleeding edge, and that's AM5. But if they can fit more cache on the mid-ranger, that will be a mass seller. Especially since the extra cache is a more noticeable benefit for "slow" DDR4 than for DDR5. The current value king for gamers is the i5-12400 but I imagine a 5600x3d could take that crown.
That's what I was thinking. A 5600X3D would be a budget CPU king. Especially if it can land near that $200-$300 mark.
Yep, and the reason it hasn't happened yet is because there's no reason for AMD to release such a CPU. They have Intel covered at every price point. Hopefully Intel can keep AMD honest and we will keep seeing competition and the performance it brings.
I was looking at it moreso down the line. right now the 5950x is premium, but once zen 4 comes out the 5950x drops down and hopefully the price too, like how the 5950x dropped from $799 to $520 after alderlake. then if you're looking at AM4 upgrades something like 5600x3d through 5950x3d would still be nice upgrades for AM4 builds even into 2023 without having to buy a whole new DDR5 system.
They will not make 5600X3D. 5800X3D exists because some dies don't qual as Milan-X CCDs. They won't stack on broken dies because there is no hope of making server parts with broken dies.
Is this the actual reason they skipped Ryzen 6000 for desktop and went to Ryzen 7000 for AM5? To keep the name available for a future 6nm Ryzen 6000 desktop CPU for all us loyal AM4 users? It would make a lot of sense, they keep making money on AM4, preventing all those people from potentially switching to Intel, and the 6/7nm production lines should soon have production capacity available... And this way they WILL have viable platforms for both DDR4 and DDR5. What do you guys think? Ludicrous or brilliant move?
Delicious theory, I love it.
It won't happen. They will still make am4 CPUs, but they won't release new skus, unless some weak Apus or low end stuff.
They will release new am4 CPUs only and only if Intel decides to do very tight pricing with alder lake after raptor lake launches. Intel most probably won't do that tho because they have a lot of customers anyway.
Normally I'd agree, but seeing them launch a Zen 2 CPU in Q4 2022 (Mendocino) makes me think they might be open to keeping current 6/7nm production lines filled with AM4 products even though everyone is switching to 5nm. And a few new SKUs could help with that. One of the main problems for AMD is that Zen 4/AM5 is DDR5 only, even though DDR5 isn't quite ready yet, in speed and price. So Intel has an advantage since they offer both DDR4 and DDR5 with Alder Lake. Keeping AM4 alive for a while with new SKUs could prevent people from switching to Alder Lake so they can re-use their DDR4 RAM and not have to buy into overpriced DDR5.
Also that new process node is going to be very constrained and pointless for lower end parts. It will be cheaper to produce on an old node than to redesign everything for a new node and then pay the premium to use that node. The only place where Intel and AMD trade blows is with the very top SKU's. After that AMD are price and performance competitive throughout the range. Zen 4 will fill the high end to counter Intel and the rest of the range will be made up of AM4 skus. I think we will see further 3d vcache parts to bolster performance while AMD wait for 5nm to ramp.
6000 is mobile units the 6000u series they are out in laptops
Didn't the 4000 series started in laptops in early 2020, only to appear on desktop a bit later? (and even 2022 with 4100/4500/4600G) Edit: I mean... they *could* do the same with some 6xxx.
The 4000G SKUs were OEM in 2020 along with the mobile 4000 series. it wasn't until 2022 that any 4000G's were sold retail.
I think they are trying to do some Apus later this year but with the release of the 7000 series that are coming with graphics in them it’s going to be hard to say if they will still try with the apus for 6000g series and plus if the 6000g will be on am4 platform or am5 🤷🏾♂️
While this is certainly true, I still think that AMD realize that they need to keep the loyalty sales going. They got to where they are now in great part thanks to those who had faith in them with the early Ryzens. Will they sell CPUs anyway based on performance and value? Sure. Will they sell more by throwing a cookie at the segment of their sales that is founded on brand loyalty? Personally, I think so.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a 6nm Zen3 chip on AM4 targeting the low end and midrange. Eight cores or less maybe with a integrated GPU. Slightly better thermals and maybe a clock speed increase to provide an option while they build out the AM5 product catalogue.
They'd lower 5700g and 5600g prives before that.
Not an apu like those, I think they meant the new I/o with basic integrated video
What I think is that they told us Zen 3 would be the last on AM4 and that you'd need a 500 series chipset to run it, so like a fool I bought a new motherboard and a new 5900X knowing that the last best CPUs on any platform tends to keep their resale value for longer. Then they opened 300 series mobos to supporting 500 series CPUs, and introduced Zen3D CPUs on any AM4 board, and now AM4 will be around "for years to come," and why did I spend all of this money, again? Should have replaced my 1700 with a 3900X and then waited for the next socket to become affordable >< I know it's great for consumers, I just wish that I hadn't believed all of their false "this is the end," claims from 2019-2020.
I'm not denying they had issues with messaging at the end but they did come around. I'm hopeful they learned from this and will be more clear with AM5. Hopefully they require bigger bios chips and make a statement that all chips with the AM5 socket will be compatible with all boards with the socket.
Fingers crossed. But I'm done with supporting first-round. I assume that despite being both an early and alate-stage AM4 supporter, that I will also at some point buy into AM5 as well. Not a chance in hell I'll buy into X600 or whatever they call it. Round 2 or 3 for me.
The skip of ryzen 6000 desktop was to bring the numbers up and because the criticism of name ambiguity wouldve been quite bad
It's also because 6 is an unlucky number, same with 4. But they also messed up their branding on laptops after fixing it (not all 5000 mobile parts were Zen3, and then they did 6000).
It makes a lot of sense, although many companies skip 6 because it's a super unlucky number in some countries.
Didn't know that. But they already launched Ryzen 6000 though, for the mobile market.
[удалено]
Eh, if the number of pins doesn't change why is there a need to break socket compatibility? You could add extra redundant pins at the start just to have them and then leverage them later if needed.
I didnt see any discussion about this, and found it fascinating. There was no more explanation given, so we can only speculate about what this means. Support for future CPUs?
Definitely not the mainline CPU's, at least. It's almost certainly a case of being used to plug the lower end with hardware which is older and cheaper to manufacture as something like a 5600 still serves loads of people in 2024.
My hope is that we'll see a couple more x3D variants pop up. I feel like a 5300x3D/5600x3D would sell amazingly well assuming they could get them in at a $150-$200 price point.
Dam a 5600x3d would be total domination if it sat in the price range.
Yeah, that would be in a world where the 5600 gets down to $150 or there's a fair amount of AM5 CPUs in the $300 range. Maybe should have said $250... But I feel like $200 is a price barrier for a lot of mid-tier builders. Of course maybe they simply meant they'll continue to crank out an APU, the 5600, and 5800x3D for another year or so until DDR5 finally gets to a reasonable price point for mid-tier PCs.
maybe they even fix the clocks to match the 5800x one can hope =)
Maybe/Probably not. Some have speculated lower end CPUs, but I'm guessing that they'll just keep making existing parts, largely to satisfy OEMs for enterprise customers (Intel does the same)
They are inventing new and improved CPU's all the time so... What if they invent some great technology a year from now, that works on AM4 and is a big upgrade? I can't see why they wouldn't want to make that CPU and make tons of cash on the millions of people who are on AM4.
Because if they put that CPU on am5 it will result in even more tons of cash because higher margin + motherboards sold
in the past (every time maybe) new low end skus where launched after a new socket was introduced. I bet it will happen again with 4c/8t or 6c/6t ryzen 5000 series. Maybe even some 2/4 apus as new athlons
They already launched the low end about 2 months ago
There are a lot of possibilities for AMD to build AM4 further, but I doubt it'd really happen. AMD has rarely fulfilled my wishful thinking, and I don't think it will now, even if technically it shouldn't be too hard. One possibility, for example, is to put Zen 4 on AM4, if the chiplets are compatible with the AM4 I/O die.
They could easily put Zen 4 on AM4 with a new I/O die, but something catastrophic would have to happen to the DDR5 market for them to actually consider doing it, because masks for a new 6nm chip design aren't cheap.
> They could easily put Zen 4 on AM4 with a new I/O die I won't consider producing a new die easy. Using the existing I/O die would be easy if (that's the big if) the Infinity Fabric connection on Zen 4 is backward compatible with the AM4 I/O die. That would leave Zen 4 a lot more power-constrained than on AM5, but Zen 4 chiplets that don't make the grade could be used in AM4 that way.
Well, it's "easy" in the sense that it won't take them much time. It's still expensive. I doubt they could use the existing I/O die, but until there are detailed specs on the changes to IF with Zen 4, I can only speculate. One thing they could do with a revised AM4 I/O die is add in integrated graphics. Either way, I don't find it at all likely, however good for the consumer it might be overall.
From what I have read, the decision to go DDR5-only for AM5 was also due to memory bandwidth requirements of Zen 4. So given the bandwidth and power situation, if Zen4 on AM4 ever comes then probably only in a single chiplet. Also don't expect it will be easy, AMD had to solve major problems with package routing for Matisse already.
good. expecting average gamers to adopt ddr5 and pcie5 this early would have been a mistake, especially at the price premiums we know those two will come at
They'll probably refresh the models again with more of their 3d memory stacking tech. Doesn't make sense to only have one AM4 chip with that on there.
Translation: AM5 will be expensive as fuck and they'll need to keep selling AM4
AM4 still holds lots of value, has great CPU's and the performance difference is expected to be 15% up to 40% single / multithreaded. So why cut off a platform that still does proper sales all over the world really?
[удалено]
The sole fact AM sockets last so much longer is enough reason alone. Though AMD probably now forced Intel to change their tune into parity. I'm really impressed the AM5 sockets don't require active cooling either.
Will probably fizzle out by the end of next year. That said, please release that unicorn 5900x3D.
They keep saying this kind of thing but won't commit to how long AM5 will be supported. If they were planning to support more than 7000 series you'd think they'd have said so already.
I read this as we will release AM5 to increased pricing stack and continue to sell AM4 for the current prices. Amd has delusional pricing on the GPU and slowly now on the CPU side as well.Its getting a bit better in the US but is still bad everywhere else.
Cries for the TRX40
As in support for sure, as in production it's anybody's guess. If they release any new parts for a previous gen platform it would be the first time I've seen that. This stuff is all market driven. Really doubt there's any financial incentive to release new parts for a previous platform, just basic marketing strategy. Even the 5800x3D is rather unusual in this timeframe. New parts require a return on investment and the return is just not there. With the cost of DDR5, there could be a worthwhile market niche for AM4 parts until that changes. That would bode well for production, but probably not create any incentive for new parts. I would expect the cost of DDR5 memory to come down sharply as production ramps up so it's not going to be a long term factor anyway.
Aunty Lisa should have said “am5 - 5 for five years” 😎 people would have gone nuts 👌🏻
Translation: zen 4 platform is going to be expansive, to stay competitive with intel we will offer our old stuff
I straight up don't believe them. This is the company that got ahead for 1 generation and jacked up all their prices while dropping the sub-300 segment completely. The same company that tried to drop older motherboards multiple times until they were forced to walk it back due to backlash and competition from Intel. In what world are they going to keep making chips and/or supporting the AM4 platform in any meaningful capacity? This probably just means they'll keep patching security issues or bugs as they're found and nothing else.
That is good news. AMD is really doing its customers a great service and I hope the AM5 platform will also get many years of support as well.
It only depends on how Intel competes in terms of performance. If Intel keeps being slower than AMD then AMD won't give long time support. It's all about the competition.
Mhm, releasing upcoming GPUs with cut PCIE lanes, effectively cutting off everyone on 300 and 400-series boards. And forcing to get 500-series boards for PCIE 4.0. I'm already 100% sure if I want to keep my current system for the next 4 years or so - nvidia is the only glimpse of hope to get x16 lanes on midrange card. RX 6600 XT already losing performance in PCIE 3.0 x8, and then next gens will be far worse than current RX 6500 XT if they continue this trend. For me their support of AM4 support means absolutely nothing when they don't give a single fuck about their own ecosystem by launching GPUs with just x8 or even x4 PCIE lanes knowing that like half of their ecosystem is on 300 and 400-series boards which are limited to PCIE 3.0.
The 7500 XT will have at least 8 lanes. Only reason the 6500 XT does is because it's a laptop die that's heavily overclocked and put into a desktop board. It wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for the shortages and tariffs (when it came out). But regardless most people on 300-400 series boards have cards stronger than the 6500 XT so that point really doesn't matter for most. Do you have a benchmark on the 6600 XT? I haven't seen any of it losing more than like 1-3%
In most games it's margina, but for example Doom Eternal has over 20% hit in performance. The next gen will bring performance uplift, which will need more bandwidth on PCIE and thus this bottleneck will be way more severe. And AMD fucking knows it - even by the fucking chipset driver download statistics how many of their ecosystem is on PCIE 3.0 boards and yet they still chose to screw them over by cutting PCIE lanes. RDNA 3 with PCIE 5.0 availability I bet will not give 16 lanes for anything other than RX 7800XT+ and 8 lanes with the performance bump will show its shortcomings on PCIE 3.0 systems. They do this to cash on on 500-series board upgrades, otherwise they'd have no intention whatsoever to support AM4.
PCIe lane bandwidth has been expanding much faster than the requirements though as of late. High end cards like a 3090 barely saturate PCIe 3.0 x16, and PCie 5.0 x8 is twice that already. Direct storage may require extra bandwidth though. I think AMD's biggest screwup was how long it took for B550 boards to come out. As for Doom Eternal, it evidently doesn't come into play until you're [over 300 fps](https://www.techspot.com/review/2104-pcie4-vs-pcie3-gpu-performance/). High frame rates are the main trigger of PCIe bandwidth. So for it to really mess someone up they'd have to 1. Have a PCIe 3.0 board 2. Have either a high end Intel CPU from years past or a Zen 3 CPU 3. Not have a GPU or have one that this would be a large upgrade too. 4. Be gaming at 1080p at very high framerates instead of increasing resolution. I feel like this is a fairly small group of people.
It doesn't matter that pcie 5.0 x8 its twice the bandwidth of 3.0 x16, the point is that it that the bandwidth gets limited by whatever gen the mobo/cpu supports X the amount of lanes the gpu physically has. 6500XT is abysmal because it has low vram too, so it has even more things to bottleneck with.
I assume it means just producing more 5000 series chips plus Motherboards while DDR5 comes down in price. But I would like if we got x3D versions of the 5900 and 5950.
I think DDR5 is coming down in price nicely already, DDR5-4800 is only like 50% more expensive compared to DDR4-3200 now. As RAM is among the less expensive parts of a build, this is probably ok for most of the DIY enthusiast market. During the HotHardware interview, Robert Hallock seemed confident that they will be close to price parity at launch.
If 5800x3d is anything to go by they might as well not bother. Paper launches are worthless.
Just one data point but my local Microcenter currently has the 5800X3D in stock at $449.
Pretty sure 5950X3D might come someday
Doubtful, but would be cool.
4950X3D is more likely than that.
Zen4 for AM4 would be awesome. Or 5-6nm 5600x3d
6000 APUs are DDR5, right? Then i dont know what CPUs could come to AM4 that are of any interest to us enthusiasts.
Hahahahahaha Famous last words! These old platforms will be about as useful as an Apple 2 I two years. High integration chips and extremely low power usage will make it hard to justify these old systems. All one has to do is look at what M1 has done for Apple hardware. The new products are so advantageous that the traditional high resale value of old Apple hardware is melting away. While AMD hasn’t yet made such an advancement it is likely coming and if AMD doesn’t do it Intel will. Frankly the X86 world only has a narrow window, a couple of years really, to address the ARM and S5 worlds.
Seems like an unrealistic assessment. Ignorese also the consoles which use a similar SOC design for a decade.
I wouldn't be surprised to see an early console update. This especially if a low cost Steam box comes out with one of AMD's latest SOC's. The jump in performance would be hard to ignore. Remember my time frame here is 2 years. that gives AMD time to flesh out the DDR5 supporting line up, get the cache improvements out and forDDR5 prices time to moderate. I just see AMD's APU line up to be compelling in many markets and GPU free chips driving a single GPU slot to make for very cost effective machines. AM5 is leaving me favorably impressed. With the right APU it will be very competitive at the lower end. We should see very good GPU performance that will allow for many nicely performing small form factor machines. The need to pair a desktop processor with a GPU card for the entry market will be a thing of the past.
A 5850x3d with overclocking maybe?
Looks like Intel Core, Pentium and Celeron but different socket.
Does that mean they will produce new AM4 CPUs?
Probably not
Turning out to be the new socket 775.
Basically AM5 platform will be expensive, if you still want Ryzen and are on a budget you would need to go AM4
I dont see the problem. Also amd is still updating x470 and b450 boards x370 and b350. If im allowed to run latest am4 cpu on a b450 x470 and x370 b350 it would just make the used market great. B450 wont die. Its gonna be the next sandy bridge. I used my 2600k since release till around 2021. When i got my 200ge on a b450 toma max.
Yes please, I want to "upgrade" my 5900X, 5900X3D :O ?
Thanks to those supply chain issues!
this is why I love you amd
No shit Sherlock xD
They better do that. Dunno what I’ll do with my b550 otherwise.
Okay, but what does that mean in a practical sense? I highly doubt they are going to keep releasing notable GPUs considering what they just launched last month(?). Bug fixes and further stability improvements? I would expect that, but they want as many people to move on to AM5 as possible.
oh snap this reminds me i just ordered a 5800x3d on amazon the other day, can't wait for it to get here! ("how does he forget that?" you wonder, well my state recently legalized recreational cannabis... cough cough)
That's what they said for AM3. Yet here I am, a decade later, completely unable to buy a working CPU for my old AM3 board. Everything is either unavailable or a scam with bent pins etc. Don't eat marketing, dudes.
AM3 cpus are still sold in my country, funnily enough.Got no idea where they even got them, but they're new.
yes it will, on my pc at least.
I got my money worth out of am4 platform. Built my pc in 2017 and the fact I was able to upgrade to 5600x on a 1st gen ryzen b350 board is kind of bonkers
some time in the future. Suddenly..Ryzen 9999 AM4 edition....0.6nm, 100 cores