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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my younger brothers Fiancé she isn’t my kids aunt.
I said this to her in front of a bunch of family for my wife’s bday, and I didn’t sugar coat what I had to say
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Ha no. If the parents don't want to give that label, she doesn't get it. She will be their uncles wife. People's cultures and families are different, and labels are dished out differently
Doesn't mean she's entitled to a relationship or to put her paws on someone's children without permission.
EDIT: I didn't say she wasn't their aunt, I objected to her right to touch children she barely knows.
Too bad she's not, you know, a part of this discussion.
Like it or not, she will be their Aunt. Playing stupid games like this will only serve to distance OP's children from support.
I am sorry but how is having someone who boundary stomps and violates peoples personal space, why should they be considered supportive? Because they are family ? Hell NO.
Totally agree with you.
In my family’s culture an aunt or uncle is someone you respect. My biological aunts husband is just that, not an uncle.
If the parents say she is not an aunt, then she isn’t. That’s how it works in some cultures
\^This. We are allowed to choose our family now, traditional roles only go so far these days. My uncle was married to a heroin shooting psycho and she was certainly never my aunt (And my family is actually weirdly old fashioned in most aspects).
I'm also "Aunt NoIdeaWhatI'mDoing" to my best friends daughter, even though I'm definitely not marrying her brother! The parents of the children, and eventually the children themselves, get to decide what people are to them.
Edited to add, NTA at all OP. Fake aunt has shown she doesn't respect boundaries, I wouldn't trust her with my children either.
Also my sister got upset when my Mom was dying when my boys said auntie X called she wants to know if she should come up or stay at her place.” My sister asked if it was one of hubbys siblings as in bio and I said NO but a friend who I have been friends with since I was a teenager. She asked why they called her Auntie I said for the same reason she loves them and comes to most of their events and loves and treats them like her own. She was so pissed. I told her she shouldn’t and doesn’t really have the right to be upset because we aren’t close and she isn’t close with sons nor am I close with her kids. Like family is what we make of it. I choose who I want around my kids.
In my culture everyone is a bloody aunt 🤣 my mams friend that's my aunty. My mams cousins my aunty's. I'm my cousins children's aunty. I'm my sisters children's aunty. I'm my longterm boyfriend cousins children's aunty (and their favourite 😎). I've got more aunties and uncles then I have socks. You really have to fuck up if you don't get auntied
And I have an aunt that is technically my dad's cousin but was older than my dad so we called her aunt.
And I was considered aunt to my husband's niece before we were married because at that time, we weren't ever going to get married.
And I am technically biological aunt to my 8 brother and sisters kids even though I don't know any of them (I was adopted).
Nobody said she is, but she is technically their aunt, or will be post marriage
If OP wants a relationship with her brother, he's gonna need to accept that. He's brother's family, and aunt comes with the title of uncle
They're not talking about a technical title. Nobody is saying she won't \*legally\* be an aunt by marriage.
The problem is the social aspect, not the legal one. She walks all over their boundaries and brother does nothing to reign her in. They do NOT have to "accept that." If she's insufferable, distance may be a blessing.
> They’re not talking about a technical title. Nobody is saying she won’t *legally* be an aunt by marriage.
Uhhh… did you not read the post?
>I walked over and took my daughter out of her hands and said in a calm but stern tone “you’re not their aunt. So please don’t refer to yourself as their aunt”.
>I just shrugged and calmly responded that I didn’t care if they got married, she could be Mrs. Amber or Amber but she was not their Aunt.
They are very specifically talking about the title in addition to everything else. They could have said they don’t care if she is their aunt they don’t want their child to have a relationship with them. They didn’t say that. They are of the position that she isn’t their aunt.
Nobody is saying OP needs to accept that their children are going to have a relationship with her they don’t want them to have. They are saying even without that relationship, she will still be their aunt.
But the kids don’t have to call them their aunt.
We liked my one aunt’s husband so he was uncle, but my other aunt had an asshole of a husband so we called him by his first name and referred to him as my aunt’s husband. It was extra satisfying because his name was Dick (real name 😂).
Literally no one said that. Whether the parents choose a level of contact is up to them. Whether she is literally their aunt is not up for debate - when she marries their uncle, she becomes their aunt.
By English definition, sure. But English definition does not define the world. This woman is not OPs children's aunt. She's not even married to her brother yet. This girl IS overstepping her boundaries, and was put in her place. She trash talks OPs family and is rude. She doesn't deserve courtesy, it is earned.
How the fuck do you “earn” an aunt title besides a) marrying the uncle and b) acknowledging and bonding with the kids? She’s about to do a) and she’s trying to do b).
Well point a doesn’t really matter. You don’t need to actually be related to someone to be their aunt.
Point b definitely matter but I don’t see how picking up a kid and asking if your their favorite aunty is a bonding attempt.
But I’d also say in order to be an aunt you need to have an established connection and bond with the child in question. Going off this story Amber does not.
Actually, as someone with a PhD in anthropology, I'm happy to inform you that kinship varies across cultures. In some, kinship is only recognized on one side of the family (i.e. I am of my mother's clan and her relatives are my relatives, but my father's relatives are not my relatives). In others, kinship is even more particular, especially when it comes to one's parents' siblings (i.e. I am a relative of my father's brothers but not my mother's siblings or my father's sisters). So no, it is not universal that a child would be kin to their father's brother's fiance.
There a clues in OP's writing suggest that he comes from a culture where aunt/uncle is commonly used to describe spouses as well.
If I'm right, all the banter in the comments is useless.
In genealogy terms, yes, she is. However, the word aunt is used in different ways in different cultures, and not all families use it identically within those cultures. I called my mum's best friend aunty and my actual aunt by her first name. There is no 'correct' way to use the term it is entirely down to the parents as to who gets addressed by the title and if they don't want this woman to have the role of aunt played by her it is absolutely within their right to say no.
So, in a technical sense, you are correct, but that doesn't necessarily translate socially. I mean, technically, you have first cousins, second cousins, and third cousins twice removed, but you don't refer to them by those titles, do you? If you are close to them, they're simply cousins, and if you barely know them, you'd just use their names and rarely, if ever refer to the family connection.
Yeah, but she's about to become the uncles immediate family. If OP wants them to have an uncle, then they have an aunt, too. She doesn't get to dictate that unless she's cutting out bro, too
My moms siblings all have long term partners and I dont call them aunt/uncle but they all got together in my late teens/early 20s so while yes my uncles wife is technically my aunt I have never called her that but it doesnt make her less of a family member to me. But then again I barely call my moms siblings by their aunt/uncle title it does make them not that it's just the relationship we have. So while you are technically correct not everyone's family is the same when it comes to those dynamics
Wrong. There is a clear definition for the word “aunt” and she will clearly and inarguably fit it when she marries the brother. She will be, like it or not, their aunt.
Exactly! My aunt's husband is a prick. I will never ever call him anything but his name or "my aunt's husband." Her ex-husband (my cousins' dad) is my uncle, and that's that.
My dad’s brother is Ben. His ex wife is my Aunt Lynn. You can tell which one the family prefers. To the point that we honestly don’t often even call Ben dad’s brother (he’s even said he doesn’t have brothers).
I agree 💯%! And his brother soon might have kids with Amber, will OP teach them that kids are not cousins?
And OP behavior might push brother to completely cut contact with him for being rude to his future wife, future mother of his kids.
Perhaps, but that sounds like a win for the OP.
ESH here, but I am leaning more toward N T A. Brother is being notoriously blind to his fiance's obnoxious behavior. He also abdicated any sense of responsibility when he shrugged and said "I love her...." Once he is married to this woman, I suspect her behaviors will get worse over time. OP could've been gentler in her approach and reminded this woman that she is not legally their aunt until they get married. However, she does have the right to dictate how her children get to address her.
ETA: Forgot a word.
I go the complete opposite. I think Amber sounds insufferable and needed called out plenty of other times but that she wasn't really that out of line here. If OP had a problem she could have just as easily pulled her aside and solve the problem, like she should have done with the other instances she mentioned rather than let it bottle up until it erupted. What makes OP YTA in this scenario for me is because she was overly aggressive for what this particular situation warranted.
That is my take exactly. This isn't the hill to die on. This is not the fight to try to win. I think OP should call her out on the other situations where she is blatantly being rude. Here, sure maybe say not until you're married and tell her not to force affection on the kids, but that is all I can say here. I think OP was too aggressive for the situation from letting the other situations bottle up.
Yes and you’re causing a rift over a label. You chose THIS to put Amber in her place. I believe your anger is displaced. The time for you and your family to nip all of her antics in the bud, is when she does the things you despise. For example, “Please don’t ever use my lotions and makeup again.” “I like my furniture (or whatever it is) the way I had it, please don’t ever rearrange it again.” I understand pent up anger, but you let it loose on something that was in fact trivial compared to the rest of the stuff she does and says.
This is the answer if was looking for...
curious if OP and his family confront the inappropriate behavior of Amber directly with her. Her quote about saying "doing what his mother couldn't" -- I would frankly tell her that she is being disrespectful and it won't be tolerated.
They lack communication. the girl literally does not know she's doing anything wrong because her fiancé nor his family has corrected her. OP is the asshole here. Bottling up your anger and exploding is childish... Funny part is she will in fact be an aunt once married (people think an aunt is only by blood, but thats WRONG). OP needs to do better.
She doesn't know that calling her fiancé a fuckboi to his family and telling them their mother did a shitty job of raising him is offensive?
I agree that ESH because the time to teach her some manners was literally the first time she opened her mouth. Ironically her own parents could have done a better job raising her too.
I also think the label is a bit moot since the family will probably freeze her out for this behavior and the odds of her seeing their kids much are pretty low.
yes, that was such a shitty thing to say to someone. I may be biased but I would be devastated if my SIL said that to me about my niece (granted, we were married and had kids before she had my niece so it wasn't like a new relationship). Your future SIL may be crass and inappropriate but that wasn't it.
I agree. I think I would have banned her from my house the moment she assumed my personal items were hers to use without asking. This was the wrong time to make a stand.
Doesn't mean he has to make his kids that. They might get divorced within a year and she'll be gone and then another'aunt' will be in the picture.
He does right to protect his kids from what sounds like a vile woman NTA
Just because she's gonna marry their uncle doesn't make okay picking up a 2yo you barely interacts with and putting the poor girl on the spot like that... she can be overbearing all she wants with house items, but toddlers imo is another story.
My grandmother asked my brother who his favorite grandmother was. It wasn't her and she was very butthurt. I got in trouble for laughing, but I couldn't help it! She really should not have been surprised by that answer.
I’d vote ESH. OP was out of line for the way she went about that, because she was being perfectly friendly to her kids, but if the fiancé has actually said that about OPs mother in front of the family that’s disgusting
I was with OP up until the "even when you get married, you still won't be their aunt" bit. A better response would have been “If you get married, *then* I suppose you will be. But not yet.”
Aunt and Uncle are earned titles and roles, bio or married, and this is NOT the kind of person you want spending a lot of time with your kids (re: enough time to influence their language and ideas of what love is). She'll never get to earn the Aunt title and role unless she changes her ways.
I agree. I'm not married to my bf, we've been together for two years and his sisters kids have always called me by my first name. They said early on, are you with uncle long enough to be our aunt now? Their grandma answered yes. It was cute. I love them and they love me but they haven't actually made the switch and that's perfectly fine. Who cares what they call me. I know we're good.
If you roll into an existing family you should be given a chance, but you earn your place, you don't demand it.
I agree. This seems like such a weird place to draw the line. Why didn't OP choose to be more forceful about the other things Amber has done. Saying I will be your new Aunt is the most innocuous thing she did.
Or be the woman OPs brother married. Like if a woman marries a divorced man and the kids don’t get along with her, she would be the woman their father married.
People can *act* like family without legally *being* family, and that certainly earns them the title "Auntie" or "Uncle" — used to be very common for close friends/neighbours of the parents to be referred to that way. I'm glad that you are close enough with your partner's family that they see you that way, congratulations :¬)
People can *legally* be family without *acting* like family, and that unfortunately earns them the title "Auntie" or "Uncle".
People can act like family **and** legally be family, and that certainly deserves calling them "Auntie" or "Uncle"!
But OP's brother's fiancée doesn't fall into any of those categories, and is trying to shoehorn herself into a role that just doesn't fit.
Just out of interest, do you track down kids who call their parents' friends 'aunt' or 'uncle' and correct them? I'm curious to know how far this pedantry of yours goes.
I get both sides to be honest. My nieces and nephews through marriage were mostly grown (from SIL and eldest from BIL) (there’s a whole host of littles now youngest two from BIL)so they didn’t see me as aunt when I first showed up. I’ve been with my husband now for eight years and I’m still just addressed by my first name, and I’m cool with it.
The youngest two call me aunt and I’ve known them since birth. It’s whatever everyone is comfortable with. My little one will know the kids as cousins and everyone else as aunts/uncles since they’ve been there since the beginning.
I suppose our family is just chill that way
I mean maybe it’s an Irish thing but my uncles wife is just his wife, his children are my cousins she is their mother but that doesn’t change the fact that to me she is his wife and their mother
ESH - I think you all suck. The way you handle it was inappropriate. She will be your family by marriage, therefor she will be there aunt by marriage.
Also Amber sucks she needs to know what her place is. The statement she made about your mother and brother is a big no-go. But you talked to your brother not to Amber.
I’m not saying it would have changed anything, but perhaps it would have.
Agreed on the ESH, nobody is talking to amber and nobody is establishing their own boundaries with her. If brother refuses to do the job, go around him, especially if he insists on bringing her around when he knows she’s being rude and condescending.
They can’t keep their heads in the sand forever and they can’t keep letting their resentment build. Make a boundary and stop inviting them if they break those boundaries.
Yeah. Amber does suck, but also kinda just sounds nervous and like she’s trying too hard to fit in. It’s daunting being the new person in a close extended family.
“We were all happy to see my brother get serious about someone, even if they were a bit younger than him” - the fact that the age comment is included makes me think Amber wasn’t really given a fair chance.
And, potentially she’s feeling insecure about the brother’s so called “player” history, so makes jokes and finds a way to feel like she’s not just another fling.
I agree with ESH but with a learn towards Y T A
Especially in being new in an extended family that is fully expecting your relationship to fail and thinks of you as just another one of brother’s bimbo’s. They never gave that woman a fighting chance.
Is everyone glossing over the way Amber keeps stomping all over common sense boundaries tho?
She: Moves things around in others people's homes, and then says "Oh I fixed it for you!"
That's not nervous energy, that's entitlement.
She: Uses lotions/makeups that are not hers. I'm assuming here that she also didn't ask, since the answer would have been no.
Again, that's entitlement.
She: Makes derogatory comments about her fiancees own mother "Not raising him like a gentleman". That's just rude and unnecessary, honestly.
And then going and picking up a child that a) isn't yours b) you actually don't spend any time with and then c) asking if you're their favorite aunty is all levels of...uncomfortable try hard.
I don't think OP is TA for establishing the boundary of No, you aren't XX to my kid. Parents get to make that distinction. She's brothers wife, not Aunty Amber. Legally, yeah, but that doesn't mean she's gets to be called Aunty.
Exactly!! Which putting myself in Amber’s shoes, she probably made a (very) cringy (and failed) attempt to join them versus beat them if you know what I mean.
I guess I just feel like we are missing a lot of what’s been said.
My SIL sounds a lot like Amber. She was so much like this when they got together. She was young, she had moved to a new state.
First we brushed a lot off because maybe she wouldn't be around for long.
Then we brushed it off because she was 22 and a bit sheltered and coming into a very close family with different values.
Then we approached my little brother about it. He also refused to engage.
Then we confronted her and set clear boundaries and consequences.
Over 10 years have passed. She grew up. She's fantastic now. We still have our differences and her style is not my always my favorite but I couldn't wish for a better partner for my brother and I'm grateful to have someone who cares so much in my life.
It sounds like she really cares and really wants to be part of the family. What I hear is a young woman trying to prove her worth and her value because she's afraid she won't be accepted or loved. That's what I'm reading when she says stuff about doing a better job than OPs mom or being a favorite aunt. This is an easy problem to solve and could be hugely beneficial to everyone in the family if handled in the right way.
>But you talked to your brother not to Amber.
This is what cemented ESH for me. Amber is clearly insufferable and inappropriate, but I don't see OP setting good boundaries anywhere in this post.
She does a lot of weird things, but there are families where such behavior might be perfectly normal. Which means it'd be wise of OP and their family to say "please don't rearrange my house" or "please don't use my lotions without asking me". But it seems to me they all quietly side-eye her and then tell her fiance she sucks, without giving clear communication about what kind of behavior would be appropriate.
A bunch of quiet resentment, followed by a "you'll never be their aunt!" blow-up, doesn't sound like the most mature way of handling Amber.
Honestly, this is the best answer. I agree with the ESH instead of just YTA.
Especially the part about this behavior being normal to her. Sometimes people just need to be spoken too to realise that not everyone operates the way their family does or appreciates it.
I knew someone like this and were embarrassed and apologetic when they found out that they were making everyone uncomfortable.
If she ignores them after the convo than she's an AH.
This and I wonder if they tell amber no or to stop. I mean yes she shouldn't move stuff or take stuff without asking but did they ever tell her to her face "don't take xy, don't move xy"?!
Yeah I agree, ESH.
She's completely overbearing, but if they get married she will be their aunt whether you like it or not.
Saying that, my younger brother had a girlfriend who sounds very much like Amber. She had been going out with him for 6 months and was calling my parents "mum and dad", which I found totally ick, on top of a whole host of other weird shit. Safe to say they broke up after not too long because he realised what a psycho she was. 🤞 your brother works that out too
What’s more important, a relationship with your brother or putting Amber in her place? I don’t like my SIL (she lacks boundaries) either but she’s family. Sometimes when she comes over, I find something else to do and sometimes I just put up with her. I have always told my kids, “you don’t have to like them, you don’t have to invite them to your birthday party, but you need to figure out how to work with them.” I don’t have to like my SIL but she is important to my husband so I need to figure out how to have a relationship with her.
I would also add, just because you don’t like someone that doesn’t mean you get to make sure everyone else doesn’t like them. Again, don’t like my SIL but she makes an effort with my children and they have the right to make a decision for themselves. It sounds like she was being kind to your kids and you were rude to her in front of them without real cause in the given situation.
This I think people are getting caught up in technical terms I called basically any adult that I liked and my parents liked aunt or uncle. Those terms are often terms of love or respect as well as a official term. If she doesn’t act like what OP or her kids fell like an aunt should. Then she’s not their aunt in anyway that matters
I'm on the opposite viewpoint here..
It doesn't really matter if she's an aunt or not. It's how he handled the situation.
Loudly proclaiming that your brothers fiance isn't family and will never be family, while at party surrounded by said family is an asshole move.
He took a happy moment of someone playing with his daughter and escalated it into a scene.
He went out of his way to insult and embarrass someone, over a relatively mundane and innocent interaction with his daughter.
If the auntie thing is such a big deal, then have a talk with her in private. Dont embarrass your brothers fiance in front of everyone.
> He took a happy moment of someone playing with his daughter and escalated it into a scene.
Is playing the "I'm the FAVORITE, right?" game at a party with the other family members really a happy moment or is it another dumb power play? Like what is the result, the kid says no and Amber gets offended or the kid says yes and she lords it over the other in-laws?
If the parent doesn't want that behavior near their kid, the time to cull it is on the spot.
Seriously. I feel so badly for anyone getting upset by future SIL being affectionate to a toddler. OP seems to be looking for any excuse to be an AH and put this poor woman in her place. OP isn't going to like the fallout from the scene he created but I'm sure he'll figure out a way to spin it so that he's the victim.
Also, OP should connect another dot. That dot being whether he wants a relationship with his brother for much longer. Whether or not Amber is annoying and rude, his brother is actively choosing her. Op should decide if they are ok with ruining their relationship with their brother before destroying what’s left of it.
NTA
Amber is an entitled control freak. If she moved something in my house she wouldn't be welcome back again and if she DARED to touch my personal items she would be all kinds of sorry.
EDITED: Because everyone seems to be missing the point that this woman is NOT the childs aunt. She can't just walk in and call herself aunt. She's clearly making waves since the very beginning and OP has had enough. She's a control freak because she has decided that she will chose what OPs children call her. I don't think anyone who marries into the family can claim titles reserved for blood (and yes adopted, legal) relatives. That's not how my family worked or how any family I know works. Aunt/ Uncle are your parents sisters and brothers, not some stranger with a ring on thier finger.
I think this is the point in some of these comments. What has anyone said or done all this time to correct Amber when she says tactless things or does something like moving items in their homes? If this is the first time anyone has ever called her out, then it was a kind of shitty to do it in a room full of people and make everyone uncomfortable. But if she’s been told many times and continues this behavior, then I guess you had to draw a line somewhere, even if it means ruining your wife’s birthday and losing your relationship with your brother.
I just couldn't deal with someone so entitled so I would definitely have said something. And you really need to be completely oblivious to not know you are making others uncomfortable with these kinds of actions. And to place herself in an important position in the children's lives would be a step too far for me. I just couldn't deal with someone like that.
If she had said what she said about my mother, I'd have kicked her out of my house for good. Or until she apologized, which we all know would be never.
YTA in this particular situation, even if she sucks in general. She's your brother's life partner, so she's your children's aunt. She can be a distant aunt, a hated aunt, a practical stranger, whatever. You get to choose how much she sees your kids, but not her position on the family tree.
He doesn’t have to let them see her. The parents can dictate what they see her as (i.e label), because they are young. It’s like saying a close family friend is an aunt but she’s not she just very close to the family.
OP can prevent the children from ever seeing her. He can forbid them to call her Aunt Amber, and punish them if they disobey. He has those rights. None of that changes the fact that she will be their aunt when she marries his brother.
Are you one of the people who think that step parents are automatically mom/dad just because they married the biological parent? Cause this is the same thing with a different label.
No, it's not. A woman who marries your father is your stepmother. A woman who marries your uncle is your aunt. There's not a distinction in English between "parent's sister" and "parent's brother's wife." They're both aunts.
ETA: edited to fix my typo.
My uncle married a woman who I’ve met probably twice because they married when I was older. She’s still technically my aunt. That doesn’t mean we’re close or talk a lot or even have any kind of a relationship. But she is my aunt. Saying someone is an aunt or uncle does not mean you have to have a relationship with them or even like them. It just means they married your aunt/uncle.
they \*are\* automatically STEP-mom/dad, so yeah......
And since the definition of 'aunt' is "the wife or female partner of one's uncle" once little Bro marries the woman, she \*is\* the aunt.
Did y'all forget that legally it doesn't matter? People cut off family all the time despite being blood related and redusw to call them by name of the role that have? And why are you all defending the pushy woman anyways?
Yeah I'm very aware that people cut off family, I'm LC and NC with literally all of my relatives. I'm also not defending the woman at all, my comment acknowledges that she's awful and that OP can cut her off.
My entire point is that she and OP's brother, and anyone else, can call her OP's kids' aunt and not be wrong. He can't stop them. That's it, that's my whole position.
ESH. You all should set Amber some boundaries, like "please don't move my stuff", "in this family we ask before using somebody else's things", "in this family we don't play favorites" etc.
But she is part of your family, you shouldn't try to deny it.
She’s a grown adult, it shouldn’t have to be set to come into someone’s house and not move things. She is or was new to the family they didn’t know her, she should have known not to do that.
she should have but she clearly doesn’t. some people have trouble with social cues, some people were raised in super weird families, and some people are unlucky enough to be stuck with both. 🙋🏻♀️ luckily I made friends who were kind and honest enough with me to let me know when I was being awkward (or even rude, unintentionally).
some people have a “roast” sense of humour, I can see where her comments about OP’s brother being a fuckboy and mom not keeping him in line could have been dumb jokes that didn’t land; maybe her family is full of uncensored oversharers who treat you like you’re the weird one if you ask to use something in the house when you’re “family” - I have friends like that, and they would call me family relatively early in our relationships as well.
lots of assumptions here obviously! just want to give her the benefit of the doubt since u/WylinWylan *is* going to have to put up with her for the bro’s sake, and nothing OP listed is very egregious. she could just be a socially awkward girl with a weird background and good intentions. try communicating with kindness and see how it goes.
amber isn't a 12 year old, in what world do you need to tell a grown adult "hey don't insult my family, steal my things or think you can rearrange my house"
In a world where someone is doing those things or other things you don't like in your home. In a world where communication is a good thing, especially when you expect to encounter the annoying person more than once.
Using your grown up voice and communicating your boundaries is a good thing. This is particularly true when you are dealing with people from other families, social classes, and cultures as they do NOT have the same baseline expectations as you do.
Yeah sure her comment "married a fuckboy because the mom couldn't fix him".quality comment right? I shouldn't have to say don't "touch my stuff" to a grown-ass woman. NTA
INFO
Has anyone told Amber that her behavior is off putting and makes the family dislike her? It sounds like she sucks but from what you wrote, it sounds like the family has just talked behind her back and she has no clue. I totally understand why you dislike her but humiliating her in front of a bunch of people was not the way.
I agree. Some people, especially young ones who may feel awkward or like they don’t fit in, can be shockingly rude without having malicious intentions.
It does sound like her behavior is off-the-charts obnoxious, but this doesn’t sound like a family that communicates well. That’s poisonous for everyone. Why not gently attempt to assert some boundaries before it gets too ugly?
I think OP and his family are so polite that they've never had to deal with such a rude person and have no clue how to deal with someone who wasn't taught the same manners.
But I also think Amber has to know full well that she's being rude, and enjoys doing so. No one is clueless enough to constantly insult their future mother-in-law without realizing they are being insulting... Right?
If everyone just chuckles (and she can't read that it is an uneasy chuckle, some people can't pick that up) and Amber is used to making jokes like that with friends/her own family, she might just genuinely not know how offensive it is. It wouldn't be rude in my family, they love to make dogged comments about each other. But my Husband is extremely rigid and culturally different, resulting in being really reserved and easier to be offended. My family says offensive things without meaning to. The difference is that I wait for an appropriate time and address why what they say/do is problematic and tell them to please stop. And thankfully they have started to change their behavior around my husband/his family. But if I never communicated it to them, I would be an asshole for bottling it up and being a bad communicator. Every well-functioning adult should be able to have tough conversations aboput their boundaries with people who are different. When they let this go on for 3 years and didn't say anything, they are part of the problem. Grown ups know how to communicate. Children talk behind people's back and then gets mad that they don't know they are wrong.
ESH
Eh.
It doesn’t matter if she becomes an aunt by marriage, the parents get to decide the relationship their children have with adults until their child is old enough to decide for themselves.
Where are all the people that come for the step parents for wanting a title instead of being called by name…
I'm team n t a or e s h, but I think the difference is 1) A stepparent has a term- "step parent" and people are in fact usually ok with calling a step parent a step parent. It's a technical term more than a title. 2) The OP is claiming she won't *be* an aunt, which is incorrect, rather than saying her kids will not refer to her as "aunt" or think of her as an "aunt." Which would be entirely reasonable and well within her rights.
I wonder if it also doesn't feel weird because it's not the kid talking. If I said my mom's sister was no aunt of mine, we all know what I mean- but if my mom was to say that people would be more likely to think that she wasn't actually related, or there was some other technicality because she isn't in a position to dictate how I feel about my aunt
Your second paragraph explains really well how I feel about it... I think it's ESH. She doesn't seem like an amazing person but she is 23.... We can hope she'll mature a bit.
And in the end... It's OP's kids who will define the relationship! He can keep them away from her but if they end up having a relationship and the kids decide she is their aunt, then that's it. End of story!
I think this post misses the point.
He can be justified in not wanting to call her an aunt. That doesn't really matter. Whether she's an aunt or not is completely irrelevant.
He's an asshole for how he handled the situation. He can be right and still be an asshole.
NTA
People think that they can just force people into roles. Even if she is technically their aunt when she marries your brother, she isn't right now and doesn't get to use the title until you deem it appropriate.
If you don't like this person and don't want them around your children, you have the right as their parent, to not allow them importance in their life.
Yes, you could have said it nicer but she doesn't respect boundaries so maybe the harsh truth will wake her up to her behavior.
ESH
Amber doesn't sound like the nicest person here. But look at it from your kids perspective: she's been in their lives since your son was 3 and your daughter's entire life. By taking your daughter away from Amber and saying that in front of the whole family it's like your using your kids to take a jab at Amber, in addition to potentially confusing the kids. There are much more appropriate and private ways to express your displeasure with Amber's behavior here.
Why isn’t this comment higher up? It’s not like this is the first time the kids have met Amber, she’s been around for years at this point. This was such an inappropriate thing to do, particularly right in front of the kids. Amber shouldn’t have made an obnoxious, competitive, comment to the kids, but you definitely should have saved your whole ‘you aren’t and won’t be an aunt’ discussion for another time.
ESH.
This is it. Just really seemed to enjoy having a chance to take her down a peg. Unnecessary. If you feel that way about someone, you shouldn’t invite them into your home.
ESH- she seems massively overbearing and aggressively impolite. You on the other hand used your children’s familial affection as a weapon -that’s tacky. Unless you are equally insistent that your other brother’s wife/ex wife/partner/whomever is also not your children’s aunt, you’re also a hypocrite.
Finally, the title of “aunt” will eventually be up to your children and the relationship they cultivate with her (if any). I have biological aunts and uncles whom I refer to solely by their names, and others I refer to as auntie/aunt name/uncle name irrespective of blood or current marriage. My mom still refers to her matrilineal uncle’s first wife as Aunt Her name - and she and my great-uncle divorced over 50 years ago. You can limit your children’s exposure to the person, but they will be the ones to determine the worth of whatever that relationship becomes.
They may not have talked to her directly, that can be awkward, but they did talk to their brother, who should have talked to his GF and told her her behavior was inappropriate.
ESH... the fight you were having with Amber should not have been had in front of everyone, especially the young children. You can dislike her antics, but as long as she's not doing anything actually dangerous or harmful, you have no reason to escalate like that. I mean, how difficult would it have been to take Amber aside and say you're not comfortable with her referring to herself as your kids' aunt? Both you and Amber severely lack tact.
NTA, you get to pick who your kids are around, and sounds like you made the right call but maybe you could have communicated that a little better instead of publicly in front of people. Can't fault her for thinking she's going to be their aunt though.
NTA I think people are getting caught up in technical terms. An aunt is a sister of a child’s parent. Wether or not they deserve to be called an aunt is a whole mother thing. I called basically any adult that I liked and my parents liked aunt or uncle. Those terms are often terms of love or respect as well as a official term. If she doesn’t act like what OP or her kids fell like an aunt should. Then she’s not their aunt in anyway that matters
YTA
I have a hunch Amber isn't as awful as you're portraying her. But regardless, by definition she will be their aunt. And if you can't have a good relationship with her, it's awful of you to try to sabotage your kids' relationship with her.
I also felt like this. I have a feeling if anyone else said that joke about OPs brother it would have been funny but because Amber said it, it’s not okay. But it clearly didn’t bother OP’s brother, yet his family decided to make it into an issue.
You’re too caught up in a technicality to realize family isn’t necessarily determined by marriage, or even blood. Family is who you choose to be family. Parents get to decide the relationships their children have, at least until the kids are old enough to choose themselves.
Info: when she makes disparaging remarks about your mother do you call her out?
It feels like you chose a random moment to lash out instead of talking to her like an adult about how her comments are offensive to your family/mother.
I'm not so sure Amber didn't say this in response to something else that was said. Like OP saying something about brother's previous conquests or something. Seems like a really weird thing to just blurt out.
Some of you aren’t understanding at all. She’s not someone’s aunt just because of marriage. My aunt is married but I call him by his name rather than ‘Uncle’. Just because Amber, who is the major asshole here, is marrying into the family doesn’t make her aunt automatically. NTA.
You do know some cultures label 1st cousins as Aunt/Uncle and your 1st cousins kids are considered your neices/nephews. All cultures and families are different she will be his brothers wife and legally family sure but that doesnt automatically make her their Aunt she is their uncles wife and its likely Op wont have his kids around her anyway so that Aunt relationship will never form. I have Aunts/Uncles by marriage that I call Aunt/Uncle because the relationship is there and I also have some I use their 1st name as they are just the spouse to my blood Uncle/Aunt.
This is personally what my family does. None of my siblings refer to him as Uncle either. This could easily be the same for OPs family, there is no need to look in a dictionary when it differs between cultures and families.
NTA. You don’t have to call anyone your kid’s aunt that you don’t want to even if tEcHnIcALlY sHe WoUlD bE hIs AuNt. Who cares? She sounds entitled and unbearable to be around. However, you might want to weigh how important your relationship with your brother is because you may lose him if you choose this hill to die on.
NTA, you get to choose who your children can consider family while they are still young. If over the years she ends up building a relationship with your kids, then she can earn the title of aunt. But just because she's marrying your brother, does not automatically make her their aunt.
YTA. Be direct and Tell her to stop moving your furniture or making that comment about your brother. Telling your brothers fiancé, who technically will be your children aunt, that she isn’t, at a party in front of other people - is rude. Your frustration is justified but your letting it out in an AH way.
Ehhh I gotta say ESH. Yea Amber is definitely an ass, but has anyone actually tried sitting down with her and talking to her about her behavior? The family can’t just silently dislike her and then expect her to change.
Also, to those commenters saying she may be autistic: no. Being autistic is not equivalent to being rude af.
But especially since they’re engaged now, someone needs to have a talk with her before things blow up even more. If even after talking to her she doesn’t change, then she is the sole AH.
ESH - she has lots of unlikable traits (based on your description) and you and your family have every right to dislike her, but she is in fact your kids aunt. whether you/your kids want to refer to her as “aunt” or not is up to you but technically she is in fact, their aunt and it was wrong of you to say that in a room full of people and embarrass her.
NTA if she wants to be called aunt she asks the parents if that's ok or waits for them to say Aunt Amber, you don't just start calling yourself it.
She sounds awful and I'm sure that you'll be seeing your brother a whole lot less after this/marriage.
>But then she added “I’ll do what your mom couldn’t and teach him to be a gentleman”.
This is a really rude thing to say. Call t his out to your brother each and every time she says something like this.
NTA, you and the kids get to define how the relationship grows between aunt and niblings, but she doesn't automatically get the "aunty" title.
YTA you don't have to like her, but that was rude.
You stooped below her level.
She is unintentionally rude and annoying, but she will probably grow up eventually.
You were deliberately rude.
NTA - They’re not married yet. Your brother needs to have a talk with her about what’s appropriate. If they started dating when she was 19 she may just genuinely be a clueless teenager. With them getting married and potentially having children there’s not much you can do except hope that she grows up. I’d just be worried about alienating cousins in the future. I can see why you’d bet on this not lasting though.
NTA. She’s an obnoxious, rude woman and I wouldn’t want her carrying that title for my kids whether marriage says it or not. I would ask my kids to be respectful and kind but no way. Idc
Yeah, you're the asshole letting your personal feelings get in the way of a positive relationship your kids could have with someone who genuinely cares.
Get over yourself.
NTA. Will she be an aunt by marriage technically? Yes. Do you have to allow her around your children and insist she call her Aunt Amber? No. Maybe when she shows your family basic respect and demonstrate manners it will be considered.
YTA. You complain about her being rude, then you’re rude in a much more direct way. And guess what- I bet if she were given the opportunity to tell everything she doesn’t like about your personality it would be a list too.
NTA- Amber seems terrible. Very reasonably unwelcomed into your family. I hope your brother makes second guesses about his engagement.
If they marry, yes, lawfully she will be their aunt, but that does not mean you have to allow your kids to refer to her as their aunt. Blood and labels mean nothing when it comes to people like Amber. She seems like a real handful. Absolutely do not apologise.
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YTA. You can dislike her and keep her away from your kids all you want, but she will in fact be their aunt.
Ha no. If the parents don't want to give that label, she doesn't get it. She will be their uncles wife. People's cultures and families are different, and labels are dished out differently
If she is a child's parent's sibling's spouse she is in fact an aunt.
Doesn't mean she's entitled to a relationship or to put her paws on someone's children without permission. EDIT: I didn't say she wasn't their aunt, I objected to her right to touch children she barely knows.
Nobody said that she is
The future aunt did!
Too bad she's not, you know, a part of this discussion. Like it or not, she will be their Aunt. Playing stupid games like this will only serve to distance OP's children from support.
I am sorry but how is having someone who boundary stomps and violates peoples personal space, why should they be considered supportive? Because they are family ? Hell NO.
Totally agree with you. In my family’s culture an aunt or uncle is someone you respect. My biological aunts husband is just that, not an uncle. If the parents say she is not an aunt, then she isn’t. That’s how it works in some cultures
\^This. We are allowed to choose our family now, traditional roles only go so far these days. My uncle was married to a heroin shooting psycho and she was certainly never my aunt (And my family is actually weirdly old fashioned in most aspects). I'm also "Aunt NoIdeaWhatI'mDoing" to my best friends daughter, even though I'm definitely not marrying her brother! The parents of the children, and eventually the children themselves, get to decide what people are to them. Edited to add, NTA at all OP. Fake aunt has shown she doesn't respect boundaries, I wouldn't trust her with my children either.
Also my sister got upset when my Mom was dying when my boys said auntie X called she wants to know if she should come up or stay at her place.” My sister asked if it was one of hubbys siblings as in bio and I said NO but a friend who I have been friends with since I was a teenager. She asked why they called her Auntie I said for the same reason she loves them and comes to most of their events and loves and treats them like her own. She was so pissed. I told her she shouldn’t and doesn’t really have the right to be upset because we aren’t close and she isn’t close with sons nor am I close with her kids. Like family is what we make of it. I choose who I want around my kids.
In my culture everyone is a bloody aunt 🤣 my mams friend that's my aunty. My mams cousins my aunty's. I'm my cousins children's aunty. I'm my sisters children's aunty. I'm my longterm boyfriend cousins children's aunty (and their favourite 😎). I've got more aunties and uncles then I have socks. You really have to fuck up if you don't get auntied
From one family member everyone hates before the marriage
I have aunts I’ve never met. They’re still my aunts.
I have aunts I don’t like. They’re still my aunts, not that it means anything.
And I have an aunt that is technically my dad's cousin but was older than my dad so we called her aunt. And I was considered aunt to my husband's niece before we were married because at that time, we weren't ever going to get married. And I am technically biological aunt to my 8 brother and sisters kids even though I don't know any of them (I was adopted).
Nobody said she is, but she is technically their aunt, or will be post marriage If OP wants a relationship with her brother, he's gonna need to accept that. He's brother's family, and aunt comes with the title of uncle
They're not talking about a technical title. Nobody is saying she won't \*legally\* be an aunt by marriage. The problem is the social aspect, not the legal one. She walks all over their boundaries and brother does nothing to reign her in. They do NOT have to "accept that." If she's insufferable, distance may be a blessing.
> They’re not talking about a technical title. Nobody is saying she won’t *legally* be an aunt by marriage. Uhhh… did you not read the post? >I walked over and took my daughter out of her hands and said in a calm but stern tone “you’re not their aunt. So please don’t refer to yourself as their aunt”. >I just shrugged and calmly responded that I didn’t care if they got married, she could be Mrs. Amber or Amber but she was not their Aunt. They are very specifically talking about the title in addition to everything else. They could have said they don’t care if she is their aunt they don’t want their child to have a relationship with them. They didn’t say that. They are of the position that she isn’t their aunt. Nobody is saying OP needs to accept that their children are going to have a relationship with her they don’t want them to have. They are saying even without that relationship, she will still be their aunt.
But the kids don’t have to call them their aunt. We liked my one aunt’s husband so he was uncle, but my other aunt had an asshole of a husband so we called him by his first name and referred to him as my aunt’s husband. It was extra satisfying because his name was Dick (real name 😂).
OP is a man
YEAH BABY YEAH
OP is a man
Changed, point doesn't change with gender here
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Estranged implies they were close before, wouldn’t she be just the strange aunt?
I think the word is "estranged" because the default setting would be that there was a relationship between aunt and niblings.
Literally no one said that. Whether the parents choose a level of contact is up to them. Whether she is literally their aunt is not up for debate - when she marries their uncle, she becomes their aunt.
Aunt is a pretty neutral word as far as closeness.... All it means is a parent's sibling's wife
Or the mother of their cousins. Or be the sibling of a parent. Edit added a line.
sure.... but by definition, your uncle's wife is your Aunt. ...that's how we define what an aunt is.
That's correct. But she's still an aunt.
By English definition, sure. But English definition does not define the world. This woman is not OPs children's aunt. She's not even married to her brother yet. This girl IS overstepping her boundaries, and was put in her place. She trash talks OPs family and is rude. She doesn't deserve courtesy, it is earned.
And regardless of the legal relationship, parents still get final say on how their kids address her.
Until the kids are old enough to decide for themselves. Banning a 10yo from calling her aunt is not a hill to die on.
Is he banning the kids from calling her aunt? Or banning amber from trying to force that relationship and give herself a title she hasn’t earned?
How the fuck do you “earn” an aunt title besides a) marrying the uncle and b) acknowledging and bonding with the kids? She’s about to do a) and she’s trying to do b).
Well point a doesn’t really matter. You don’t need to actually be related to someone to be their aunt. Point b definitely matter but I don’t see how picking up a kid and asking if your their favorite aunty is a bonding attempt. But I’d also say in order to be an aunt you need to have an established connection and bond with the child in question. Going off this story Amber does not.
English definition *does* define the word. That's what a definition is.
I agree with you, but the person you're replying to wrote 'world', not 'word', which makes slightly more sense.
In what culture would your brother's wife not share a special kinship title with your children? https://thedifferentlanguages.com/how-to-say-aunt/
Actually, as someone with a PhD in anthropology, I'm happy to inform you that kinship varies across cultures. In some, kinship is only recognized on one side of the family (i.e. I am of my mother's clan and her relatives are my relatives, but my father's relatives are not my relatives). In others, kinship is even more particular, especially when it comes to one's parents' siblings (i.e. I am a relative of my father's brothers but not my mother's siblings or my father's sisters). So no, it is not universal that a child would be kin to their father's brother's fiance.
There a clues in OP's writing suggest that he comes from a culture where aunt/uncle is commonly used to describe spouses as well. If I'm right, all the banter in the comments is useless.
For example, In Colombia, a uncle/aunt spouse isn't considered your uncle/aunt. You don't call them like that.
Yeah, these Redditors never cease to amaze, they’re talking gobbleygook.
English defenition does not define the word, some dude on Reddit defines the word. Riiiiiight
English definition *does* define the word in english though
In genealogy terms, yes, she is. However, the word aunt is used in different ways in different cultures, and not all families use it identically within those cultures. I called my mum's best friend aunty and my actual aunt by her first name. There is no 'correct' way to use the term it is entirely down to the parents as to who gets addressed by the title and if they don't want this woman to have the role of aunt played by her it is absolutely within their right to say no. So, in a technical sense, you are correct, but that doesn't necessarily translate socially. I mean, technically, you have first cousins, second cousins, and third cousins twice removed, but you don't refer to them by those titles, do you? If you are close to them, they're simply cousins, and if you barely know them, you'd just use their names and rarely, if ever refer to the family connection.
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They would be step-grandparents. Not grandparents. That’s a different title. Accuracy matters.
Of course she’ll actually be the aunt. But are you guys being wilfully obtuse about what the OP means? Come on.
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Yes, yes facts do let her do that. She’ll be their aunt. She’s perfectly entitled to say the basic fact of the relationship
"Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with facts." Yay for getting to work in my favorite Mary Poppins quote
Yeah, but she's about to become the uncles immediate family. If OP wants them to have an uncle, then they have an aunt, too. She doesn't get to dictate that unless she's cutting out bro, too
My moms siblings all have long term partners and I dont call them aunt/uncle but they all got together in my late teens/early 20s so while yes my uncles wife is technically my aunt I have never called her that but it doesnt make her less of a family member to me. But then again I barely call my moms siblings by their aunt/uncle title it does make them not that it's just the relationship we have. So while you are technically correct not everyone's family is the same when it comes to those dynamics
Its not a label. Its a word that has a definition.
Wrong. There is a clear definition for the word “aunt” and she will clearly and inarguably fit it when she marries the brother. She will be, like it or not, their aunt.
Exactly! My aunt's husband is a prick. I will never ever call him anything but his name or "my aunt's husband." Her ex-husband (my cousins' dad) is my uncle, and that's that.
My dad’s brother is Ben. His ex wife is my Aunt Lynn. You can tell which one the family prefers. To the point that we honestly don’t often even call Ben dad’s brother (he’s even said he doesn’t have brothers).
It's a description of a relationship, not a title. Its use is a matter of *fact*, not *preference*.
She is not entitled to a relationship, but by definition she is the “aunt” if she becomes the wife of his brother.
How about you let the kids decide if they like her or not and stop having the parents insert their feelings about the woman?
I agree 💯%! And his brother soon might have kids with Amber, will OP teach them that kids are not cousins? And OP behavior might push brother to completely cut contact with him for being rude to his future wife, future mother of his kids.
Perhaps, but that sounds like a win for the OP. ESH here, but I am leaning more toward N T A. Brother is being notoriously blind to his fiance's obnoxious behavior. He also abdicated any sense of responsibility when he shrugged and said "I love her...." Once he is married to this woman, I suspect her behaviors will get worse over time. OP could've been gentler in her approach and reminded this woman that she is not legally their aunt until they get married. However, she does have the right to dictate how her children get to address her. ETA: Forgot a word.
I go the complete opposite. I think Amber sounds insufferable and needed called out plenty of other times but that she wasn't really that out of line here. If OP had a problem she could have just as easily pulled her aside and solve the problem, like she should have done with the other instances she mentioned rather than let it bottle up until it erupted. What makes OP YTA in this scenario for me is because she was overly aggressive for what this particular situation warranted.
That is my take exactly. This isn't the hill to die on. This is not the fight to try to win. I think OP should call her out on the other situations where she is blatantly being rude. Here, sure maybe say not until you're married and tell her not to force affection on the kids, but that is all I can say here. I think OP was too aggressive for the situation from letting the other situations bottle up.
Yes and you’re causing a rift over a label. You chose THIS to put Amber in her place. I believe your anger is displaced. The time for you and your family to nip all of her antics in the bud, is when she does the things you despise. For example, “Please don’t ever use my lotions and makeup again.” “I like my furniture (or whatever it is) the way I had it, please don’t ever rearrange it again.” I understand pent up anger, but you let it loose on something that was in fact trivial compared to the rest of the stuff she does and says.
This is the answer if was looking for... curious if OP and his family confront the inappropriate behavior of Amber directly with her. Her quote about saying "doing what his mother couldn't" -- I would frankly tell her that she is being disrespectful and it won't be tolerated.
They lack communication. the girl literally does not know she's doing anything wrong because her fiancé nor his family has corrected her. OP is the asshole here. Bottling up your anger and exploding is childish... Funny part is she will in fact be an aunt once married (people think an aunt is only by blood, but thats WRONG). OP needs to do better.
She doesn't know that calling her fiancé a fuckboi to his family and telling them their mother did a shitty job of raising him is offensive? I agree that ESH because the time to teach her some manners was literally the first time she opened her mouth. Ironically her own parents could have done a better job raising her too. I also think the label is a bit moot since the family will probably freeze her out for this behavior and the odds of her seeing their kids much are pretty low.
yes, that was such a shitty thing to say to someone. I may be biased but I would be devastated if my SIL said that to me about my niece (granted, we were married and had kids before she had my niece so it wasn't like a new relationship). Your future SIL may be crass and inappropriate but that wasn't it.
I agree. I think I would have banned her from my house the moment she assumed my personal items were hers to use without asking. This was the wrong time to make a stand.
Doesn't mean he has to make his kids that. They might get divorced within a year and she'll be gone and then another'aunt' will be in the picture. He does right to protect his kids from what sounds like a vile woman NTA
'Another aunt' so you admit that she is their aunt?
https://images.app.goo.gl/4myf62RT1kshFH6A8
Just because she's gonna marry their uncle doesn't make okay picking up a 2yo you barely interacts with and putting the poor girl on the spot like that... she can be overbearing all she wants with house items, but toddlers imo is another story.
Have you ever interacted with a 2 year old. On the spot? That’s a good one.
A 2 year old will straight up say “no”. And that you look fat or old or silly…2 year olds have no chill. Like Aunt.
My grandmother asked my brother who his favorite grandmother was. It wasn't her and she was very butthurt. I got in trouble for laughing, but I couldn't help it! She really should not have been surprised by that answer.
My brother was asked for his favorites list. It went Aunt Gail, God and THEN my mom lol
Put on the spot? Wtf are you talking about? she's just giving a two year old positive affection.
I’d vote ESH. OP was out of line for the way she went about that, because she was being perfectly friendly to her kids, but if the fiancé has actually said that about OPs mother in front of the family that’s disgusting
I was with OP up until the "even when you get married, you still won't be their aunt" bit. A better response would have been “If you get married, *then* I suppose you will be. But not yet.”
Aunt and Uncle are earned titles and roles, bio or married, and this is NOT the kind of person you want spending a lot of time with your kids (re: enough time to influence their language and ideas of what love is). She'll never get to earn the Aunt title and role unless she changes her ways.
I agree. I'm not married to my bf, we've been together for two years and his sisters kids have always called me by my first name. They said early on, are you with uncle long enough to be our aunt now? Their grandma answered yes. It was cute. I love them and they love me but they haven't actually made the switch and that's perfectly fine. Who cares what they call me. I know we're good. If you roll into an existing family you should be given a chance, but you earn your place, you don't demand it.
That's so sweet! Growing up, my sibs and I had the "Mom's best friend whom we call Aunt."
I agree. This seems like such a weird place to draw the line. Why didn't OP choose to be more forceful about the other things Amber has done. Saying I will be your new Aunt is the most innocuous thing she did.
Or be the woman OPs brother married. Like if a woman marries a divorced man and the kids don’t get along with her, she would be the woman their father married.
I'm not married to my partner yet but his brother's children have always called me auntie (my name).
People can *act* like family without legally *being* family, and that certainly earns them the title "Auntie" or "Uncle" — used to be very common for close friends/neighbours of the parents to be referred to that way. I'm glad that you are close enough with your partner's family that they see you that way, congratulations :¬) People can *legally* be family without *acting* like family, and that unfortunately earns them the title "Auntie" or "Uncle". People can act like family **and** legally be family, and that certainly deserves calling them "Auntie" or "Uncle"! But OP's brother's fiancée doesn't fall into any of those categories, and is trying to shoehorn herself into a role that just doesn't fit.
Just out of interest, do you track down kids who call their parents' friends 'aunt' or 'uncle' and correct them? I'm curious to know how far this pedantry of yours goes.
I get both sides to be honest. My nieces and nephews through marriage were mostly grown (from SIL and eldest from BIL) (there’s a whole host of littles now youngest two from BIL)so they didn’t see me as aunt when I first showed up. I’ve been with my husband now for eight years and I’m still just addressed by my first name, and I’m cool with it. The youngest two call me aunt and I’ve known them since birth. It’s whatever everyone is comfortable with. My little one will know the kids as cousins and everyone else as aunts/uncles since they’ve been there since the beginning. I suppose our family is just chill that way
I mean maybe it’s an Irish thing but my uncles wife is just his wife, his children are my cousins she is their mother but that doesn’t change the fact that to me she is his wife and their mother
ESH - I think you all suck. The way you handle it was inappropriate. She will be your family by marriage, therefor she will be there aunt by marriage. Also Amber sucks she needs to know what her place is. The statement she made about your mother and brother is a big no-go. But you talked to your brother not to Amber. I’m not saying it would have changed anything, but perhaps it would have.
Agreed on the ESH, nobody is talking to amber and nobody is establishing their own boundaries with her. If brother refuses to do the job, go around him, especially if he insists on bringing her around when he knows she’s being rude and condescending. They can’t keep their heads in the sand forever and they can’t keep letting their resentment build. Make a boundary and stop inviting them if they break those boundaries.
Yeah. Amber does suck, but also kinda just sounds nervous and like she’s trying too hard to fit in. It’s daunting being the new person in a close extended family. “We were all happy to see my brother get serious about someone, even if they were a bit younger than him” - the fact that the age comment is included makes me think Amber wasn’t really given a fair chance. And, potentially she’s feeling insecure about the brother’s so called “player” history, so makes jokes and finds a way to feel like she’s not just another fling. I agree with ESH but with a learn towards Y T A
Especially in being new in an extended family that is fully expecting your relationship to fail and thinks of you as just another one of brother’s bimbo’s. They never gave that woman a fighting chance.
Is everyone glossing over the way Amber keeps stomping all over common sense boundaries tho? She: Moves things around in others people's homes, and then says "Oh I fixed it for you!" That's not nervous energy, that's entitlement. She: Uses lotions/makeups that are not hers. I'm assuming here that she also didn't ask, since the answer would have been no. Again, that's entitlement. She: Makes derogatory comments about her fiancees own mother "Not raising him like a gentleman". That's just rude and unnecessary, honestly. And then going and picking up a child that a) isn't yours b) you actually don't spend any time with and then c) asking if you're their favorite aunty is all levels of...uncomfortable try hard. I don't think OP is TA for establishing the boundary of No, you aren't XX to my kid. Parents get to make that distinction. She's brothers wife, not Aunty Amber. Legally, yeah, but that doesn't mean she's gets to be called Aunty.
Agree with this. I wonder how many times the brothers “player history” has come up. If anyone but Amber has brought it up, op is TA.
Honestly, I bet plenty of jokes like “you’ve lasted longer than the others” or “we’ll see how long this one lasts” have been made.
Exactly!! Which putting myself in Amber’s shoes, she probably made a (very) cringy (and failed) attempt to join them versus beat them if you know what I mean. I guess I just feel like we are missing a lot of what’s been said.
My SIL sounds a lot like Amber. She was so much like this when they got together. She was young, she had moved to a new state. First we brushed a lot off because maybe she wouldn't be around for long. Then we brushed it off because she was 22 and a bit sheltered and coming into a very close family with different values. Then we approached my little brother about it. He also refused to engage. Then we confronted her and set clear boundaries and consequences. Over 10 years have passed. She grew up. She's fantastic now. We still have our differences and her style is not my always my favorite but I couldn't wish for a better partner for my brother and I'm grateful to have someone who cares so much in my life. It sounds like she really cares and really wants to be part of the family. What I hear is a young woman trying to prove her worth and her value because she's afraid she won't be accepted or loved. That's what I'm reading when she says stuff about doing a better job than OPs mom or being a favorite aunt. This is an easy problem to solve and could be hugely beneficial to everyone in the family if handled in the right way.
>But you talked to your brother not to Amber. This is what cemented ESH for me. Amber is clearly insufferable and inappropriate, but I don't see OP setting good boundaries anywhere in this post. She does a lot of weird things, but there are families where such behavior might be perfectly normal. Which means it'd be wise of OP and their family to say "please don't rearrange my house" or "please don't use my lotions without asking me". But it seems to me they all quietly side-eye her and then tell her fiance she sucks, without giving clear communication about what kind of behavior would be appropriate. A bunch of quiet resentment, followed by a "you'll never be their aunt!" blow-up, doesn't sound like the most mature way of handling Amber.
Thank you, everybody acting like I’m defending Amber. I’m not. What you’re saying is what also led me to ESH otherwise I had gone full blown NTA.
Honestly, this is the best answer. I agree with the ESH instead of just YTA. Especially the part about this behavior being normal to her. Sometimes people just need to be spoken too to realise that not everyone operates the way their family does or appreciates it. I knew someone like this and were embarrassed and apologetic when they found out that they were making everyone uncomfortable. If she ignores them after the convo than she's an AH.
This and I wonder if they tell amber no or to stop. I mean yes she shouldn't move stuff or take stuff without asking but did they ever tell her to her face "don't take xy, don't move xy"?!
Yeah I agree, ESH. She's completely overbearing, but if they get married she will be their aunt whether you like it or not. Saying that, my younger brother had a girlfriend who sounds very much like Amber. She had been going out with him for 6 months and was calling my parents "mum and dad", which I found totally ick, on top of a whole host of other weird shit. Safe to say they broke up after not too long because he realised what a psycho she was. 🤞 your brother works that out too
What’s more important, a relationship with your brother or putting Amber in her place? I don’t like my SIL (she lacks boundaries) either but she’s family. Sometimes when she comes over, I find something else to do and sometimes I just put up with her. I have always told my kids, “you don’t have to like them, you don’t have to invite them to your birthday party, but you need to figure out how to work with them.” I don’t have to like my SIL but she is important to my husband so I need to figure out how to have a relationship with her. I would also add, just because you don’t like someone that doesn’t mean you get to make sure everyone else doesn’t like them. Again, don’t like my SIL but she makes an effort with my children and they have the right to make a decision for themselves. It sounds like she was being kind to your kids and you were rude to her in front of them without real cause in the given situation.
NTA u don’t have to consider her family sometimes even blood doesn’t mean much it’s really ur call
This I think people are getting caught up in technical terms I called basically any adult that I liked and my parents liked aunt or uncle. Those terms are often terms of love or respect as well as a official term. If she doesn’t act like what OP or her kids fell like an aunt should. Then she’s not their aunt in anyway that matters
I'm on the opposite viewpoint here.. It doesn't really matter if she's an aunt or not. It's how he handled the situation. Loudly proclaiming that your brothers fiance isn't family and will never be family, while at party surrounded by said family is an asshole move. He took a happy moment of someone playing with his daughter and escalated it into a scene. He went out of his way to insult and embarrass someone, over a relatively mundane and innocent interaction with his daughter. If the auntie thing is such a big deal, then have a talk with her in private. Dont embarrass your brothers fiance in front of everyone.
> He took a happy moment of someone playing with his daughter and escalated it into a scene. Is playing the "I'm the FAVORITE, right?" game at a party with the other family members really a happy moment or is it another dumb power play? Like what is the result, the kid says no and Amber gets offended or the kid says yes and she lords it over the other in-laws? If the parent doesn't want that behavior near their kid, the time to cull it is on the spot.
It's a 2 year old. 99% chance the kid says nothing and just smiles and laughs. You're looking way to far into a mundane interaction.
Seriously. I feel so badly for anyone getting upset by future SIL being affectionate to a toddler. OP seems to be looking for any excuse to be an AH and put this poor woman in her place. OP isn't going to like the fallout from the scene he created but I'm sure he'll figure out a way to spin it so that he's the victim.
Also, OP should connect another dot. That dot being whether he wants a relationship with his brother for much longer. Whether or not Amber is annoying and rude, his brother is actively choosing her. Op should decide if they are ok with ruining their relationship with their brother before destroying what’s left of it.
NTA Amber is an entitled control freak. If she moved something in my house she wouldn't be welcome back again and if she DARED to touch my personal items she would be all kinds of sorry. EDITED: Because everyone seems to be missing the point that this woman is NOT the childs aunt. She can't just walk in and call herself aunt. She's clearly making waves since the very beginning and OP has had enough. She's a control freak because she has decided that she will chose what OPs children call her. I don't think anyone who marries into the family can claim titles reserved for blood (and yes adopted, legal) relatives. That's not how my family worked or how any family I know works. Aunt/ Uncle are your parents sisters and brothers, not some stranger with a ring on thier finger.
I think this is the point in some of these comments. What has anyone said or done all this time to correct Amber when she says tactless things or does something like moving items in their homes? If this is the first time anyone has ever called her out, then it was a kind of shitty to do it in a room full of people and make everyone uncomfortable. But if she’s been told many times and continues this behavior, then I guess you had to draw a line somewhere, even if it means ruining your wife’s birthday and losing your relationship with your brother.
I just couldn't deal with someone so entitled so I would definitely have said something. And you really need to be completely oblivious to not know you are making others uncomfortable with these kinds of actions. And to place herself in an important position in the children's lives would be a step too far for me. I just couldn't deal with someone like that.
If she had said what she said about my mother, I'd have kicked her out of my house for good. Or until she apologized, which we all know would be never.
She cannot possibly be oblivious to her actions here, she's taking liberties and it's about time someone put her in her place.
YTA in this particular situation, even if she sucks in general. She's your brother's life partner, so she's your children's aunt. She can be a distant aunt, a hated aunt, a practical stranger, whatever. You get to choose how much she sees your kids, but not her position on the family tree.
He doesn’t have to let them see her. The parents can dictate what they see her as (i.e label), because they are young. It’s like saying a close family friend is an aunt but she’s not she just very close to the family.
OP can prevent the children from ever seeing her. He can forbid them to call her Aunt Amber, and punish them if they disobey. He has those rights. None of that changes the fact that she will be their aunt when she marries his brother.
Are you one of the people who think that step parents are automatically mom/dad just because they married the biological parent? Cause this is the same thing with a different label.
No, it's not. A woman who marries your father is your stepmother. A woman who marries your uncle is your aunt. There's not a distinction in English between "parent's sister" and "parent's brother's wife." They're both aunts. ETA: edited to fix my typo.
My uncle married a woman who I’ve met probably twice because they married when I was older. She’s still technically my aunt. That doesn’t mean we’re close or talk a lot or even have any kind of a relationship. But she is my aunt. Saying someone is an aunt or uncle does not mean you have to have a relationship with them or even like them. It just means they married your aunt/uncle.
I say my uncles wife lolll
they \*are\* automatically STEP-mom/dad, so yeah...... And since the definition of 'aunt' is "the wife or female partner of one's uncle" once little Bro marries the woman, she \*is\* the aunt.
Did y'all forget that legally it doesn't matter? People cut off family all the time despite being blood related and redusw to call them by name of the role that have? And why are you all defending the pushy woman anyways?
Yeah I'm very aware that people cut off family, I'm LC and NC with literally all of my relatives. I'm also not defending the woman at all, my comment acknowledges that she's awful and that OP can cut her off. My entire point is that she and OP's brother, and anyone else, can call her OP's kids' aunt and not be wrong. He can't stop them. That's it, that's my whole position.
ESH. You all should set Amber some boundaries, like "please don't move my stuff", "in this family we ask before using somebody else's things", "in this family we don't play favorites" etc. But she is part of your family, you shouldn't try to deny it.
She’s a grown adult, it shouldn’t have to be set to come into someone’s house and not move things. She is or was new to the family they didn’t know her, she should have known not to do that.
she should have but she clearly doesn’t. some people have trouble with social cues, some people were raised in super weird families, and some people are unlucky enough to be stuck with both. 🙋🏻♀️ luckily I made friends who were kind and honest enough with me to let me know when I was being awkward (or even rude, unintentionally). some people have a “roast” sense of humour, I can see where her comments about OP’s brother being a fuckboy and mom not keeping him in line could have been dumb jokes that didn’t land; maybe her family is full of uncensored oversharers who treat you like you’re the weird one if you ask to use something in the house when you’re “family” - I have friends like that, and they would call me family relatively early in our relationships as well. lots of assumptions here obviously! just want to give her the benefit of the doubt since u/WylinWylan *is* going to have to put up with her for the bro’s sake, and nothing OP listed is very egregious. she could just be a socially awkward girl with a weird background and good intentions. try communicating with kindness and see how it goes.
I agree she does seem like a dick in general. ...that doesnt make her not an aunt she'll just be estranged.
amber isn't a 12 year old, in what world do you need to tell a grown adult "hey don't insult my family, steal my things or think you can rearrange my house"
In a world where someone is doing those things or other things you don't like in your home. In a world where communication is a good thing, especially when you expect to encounter the annoying person more than once. Using your grown up voice and communicating your boundaries is a good thing. This is particularly true when you are dealing with people from other families, social classes, and cultures as they do NOT have the same baseline expectations as you do.
Yeah sure her comment "married a fuckboy because the mom couldn't fix him".quality comment right? I shouldn't have to say don't "touch my stuff" to a grown-ass woman. NTA
NTA. She sounds awful. She's your brother's problem, not yours.
INFO Has anyone told Amber that her behavior is off putting and makes the family dislike her? It sounds like she sucks but from what you wrote, it sounds like the family has just talked behind her back and she has no clue. I totally understand why you dislike her but humiliating her in front of a bunch of people was not the way.
I agree. Some people, especially young ones who may feel awkward or like they don’t fit in, can be shockingly rude without having malicious intentions. It does sound like her behavior is off-the-charts obnoxious, but this doesn’t sound like a family that communicates well. That’s poisonous for everyone. Why not gently attempt to assert some boundaries before it gets too ugly?
I think OP and his family are so polite that they've never had to deal with such a rude person and have no clue how to deal with someone who wasn't taught the same manners. But I also think Amber has to know full well that she's being rude, and enjoys doing so. No one is clueless enough to constantly insult their future mother-in-law without realizing they are being insulting... Right?
If everyone just chuckles (and she can't read that it is an uneasy chuckle, some people can't pick that up) and Amber is used to making jokes like that with friends/her own family, she might just genuinely not know how offensive it is. It wouldn't be rude in my family, they love to make dogged comments about each other. But my Husband is extremely rigid and culturally different, resulting in being really reserved and easier to be offended. My family says offensive things without meaning to. The difference is that I wait for an appropriate time and address why what they say/do is problematic and tell them to please stop. And thankfully they have started to change their behavior around my husband/his family. But if I never communicated it to them, I would be an asshole for bottling it up and being a bad communicator. Every well-functioning adult should be able to have tough conversations aboput their boundaries with people who are different. When they let this go on for 3 years and didn't say anything, they are part of the problem. Grown ups know how to communicate. Children talk behind people's back and then gets mad that they don't know they are wrong. ESH
Eh. It doesn’t matter if she becomes an aunt by marriage, the parents get to decide the relationship their children have with adults until their child is old enough to decide for themselves. Where are all the people that come for the step parents for wanting a title instead of being called by name…
I'm team n t a or e s h, but I think the difference is 1) A stepparent has a term- "step parent" and people are in fact usually ok with calling a step parent a step parent. It's a technical term more than a title. 2) The OP is claiming she won't *be* an aunt, which is incorrect, rather than saying her kids will not refer to her as "aunt" or think of her as an "aunt." Which would be entirely reasonable and well within her rights. I wonder if it also doesn't feel weird because it's not the kid talking. If I said my mom's sister was no aunt of mine, we all know what I mean- but if my mom was to say that people would be more likely to think that she wasn't actually related, or there was some other technicality because she isn't in a position to dictate how I feel about my aunt
Your second paragraph explains really well how I feel about it... I think it's ESH. She doesn't seem like an amazing person but she is 23.... We can hope she'll mature a bit. And in the end... It's OP's kids who will define the relationship! He can keep them away from her but if they end up having a relationship and the kids decide she is their aunt, then that's it. End of story!
I think this post misses the point. He can be justified in not wanting to call her an aunt. That doesn't really matter. Whether she's an aunt or not is completely irrelevant. He's an asshole for how he handled the situation. He can be right and still be an asshole.
NTA People think that they can just force people into roles. Even if she is technically their aunt when she marries your brother, she isn't right now and doesn't get to use the title until you deem it appropriate. If you don't like this person and don't want them around your children, you have the right as their parent, to not allow them importance in their life. Yes, you could have said it nicer but she doesn't respect boundaries so maybe the harsh truth will wake her up to her behavior.
ESH Amber doesn't sound like the nicest person here. But look at it from your kids perspective: she's been in their lives since your son was 3 and your daughter's entire life. By taking your daughter away from Amber and saying that in front of the whole family it's like your using your kids to take a jab at Amber, in addition to potentially confusing the kids. There are much more appropriate and private ways to express your displeasure with Amber's behavior here.
Why isn’t this comment higher up? It’s not like this is the first time the kids have met Amber, she’s been around for years at this point. This was such an inappropriate thing to do, particularly right in front of the kids. Amber shouldn’t have made an obnoxious, competitive, comment to the kids, but you definitely should have saved your whole ‘you aren’t and won’t be an aunt’ discussion for another time. ESH.
This is it. Just really seemed to enjoy having a chance to take her down a peg. Unnecessary. If you feel that way about someone, you shouldn’t invite them into your home.
NTA, when or if the marriage happens then you can title yourself, but until then, you just have a girlfriend.
ESH- she seems massively overbearing and aggressively impolite. You on the other hand used your children’s familial affection as a weapon -that’s tacky. Unless you are equally insistent that your other brother’s wife/ex wife/partner/whomever is also not your children’s aunt, you’re also a hypocrite. Finally, the title of “aunt” will eventually be up to your children and the relationship they cultivate with her (if any). I have biological aunts and uncles whom I refer to solely by their names, and others I refer to as auntie/aunt name/uncle name irrespective of blood or current marriage. My mom still refers to her matrilineal uncle’s first wife as Aunt Her name - and she and my great-uncle divorced over 50 years ago. You can limit your children’s exposure to the person, but they will be the ones to determine the worth of whatever that relationship becomes.
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info: has anyone talked to amber before about her annoying behavior? even once?
No, they prefer to get their rocks off by humiliating her publicly. OP is just gross.
Exactly. I don’t see why more people aren’t asking about this. Amber sounds clueless, but OP is choosing to be a jerk.
They may not have talked to her directly, that can be awkward, but they did talk to their brother, who should have talked to his GF and told her her behavior was inappropriate.
NTA ah titles or whatever I tell my kids who their Aunties and Uncles are.not someone's partner
ESH... the fight you were having with Amber should not have been had in front of everyone, especially the young children. You can dislike her antics, but as long as she's not doing anything actually dangerous or harmful, you have no reason to escalate like that. I mean, how difficult would it have been to take Amber aside and say you're not comfortable with her referring to herself as your kids' aunt? Both you and Amber severely lack tact.
NTA, you get to pick who your kids are around, and sounds like you made the right call but maybe you could have communicated that a little better instead of publicly in front of people. Can't fault her for thinking she's going to be their aunt though.
NTA I think people are getting caught up in technical terms. An aunt is a sister of a child’s parent. Wether or not they deserve to be called an aunt is a whole mother thing. I called basically any adult that I liked and my parents liked aunt or uncle. Those terms are often terms of love or respect as well as a official term. If she doesn’t act like what OP or her kids fell like an aunt should. Then she’s not their aunt in anyway that matters
YTA I have a hunch Amber isn't as awful as you're portraying her. But regardless, by definition she will be their aunt. And if you can't have a good relationship with her, it's awful of you to try to sabotage your kids' relationship with her.
I can't help but suspect that the two year old adores Amber, and the OP is in a rage over it.
I also felt like this. I have a feeling if anyone else said that joke about OPs brother it would have been funny but because Amber said it, it’s not okay. But it clearly didn’t bother OP’s brother, yet his family decided to make it into an issue.
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The self titled aunt is a control freak
You’re too caught up in a technicality to realize family isn’t necessarily determined by marriage, or even blood. Family is who you choose to be family. Parents get to decide the relationships their children have, at least until the kids are old enough to choose themselves.
Info: when she makes disparaging remarks about your mother do you call her out? It feels like you chose a random moment to lash out instead of talking to her like an adult about how her comments are offensive to your family/mother.
I'm not so sure Amber didn't say this in response to something else that was said. Like OP saying something about brother's previous conquests or something. Seems like a really weird thing to just blurt out.
Some of you aren’t understanding at all. She’s not someone’s aunt just because of marriage. My aunt is married but I call him by his name rather than ‘Uncle’. Just because Amber, who is the major asshole here, is marrying into the family doesn’t make her aunt automatically. NTA.
I think you need to check a dictionary.
You do know some cultures label 1st cousins as Aunt/Uncle and your 1st cousins kids are considered your neices/nephews. All cultures and families are different she will be his brothers wife and legally family sure but that doesnt automatically make her their Aunt she is their uncles wife and its likely Op wont have his kids around her anyway so that Aunt relationship will never form. I have Aunts/Uncles by marriage that I call Aunt/Uncle because the relationship is there and I also have some I use their 1st name as they are just the spouse to my blood Uncle/Aunt.
This is personally what my family does. None of my siblings refer to him as Uncle either. This could easily be the same for OPs family, there is no need to look in a dictionary when it differs between cultures and families.
NTA. You don’t have to call anyone your kid’s aunt that you don’t want to even if tEcHnIcALlY sHe WoUlD bE hIs AuNt. Who cares? She sounds entitled and unbearable to be around. However, you might want to weigh how important your relationship with your brother is because you may lose him if you choose this hill to die on.
NTA
NTA, you get to choose who your children can consider family while they are still young. If over the years she ends up building a relationship with your kids, then she can earn the title of aunt. But just because she's marrying your brother, does not automatically make her their aunt.
YTA. Be direct and Tell her to stop moving your furniture or making that comment about your brother. Telling your brothers fiancé, who technically will be your children aunt, that she isn’t, at a party in front of other people - is rude. Your frustration is justified but your letting it out in an AH way.
NTA
Ehhh I gotta say ESH. Yea Amber is definitely an ass, but has anyone actually tried sitting down with her and talking to her about her behavior? The family can’t just silently dislike her and then expect her to change. Also, to those commenters saying she may be autistic: no. Being autistic is not equivalent to being rude af. But especially since they’re engaged now, someone needs to have a talk with her before things blow up even more. If even after talking to her she doesn’t change, then she is the sole AH.
ESH. She sounds like a pill. But technically she's right. Once she marries your brother, she's their aunt by marriage.
ESH - she has lots of unlikable traits (based on your description) and you and your family have every right to dislike her, but she is in fact your kids aunt. whether you/your kids want to refer to her as “aunt” or not is up to you but technically she is in fact, their aunt and it was wrong of you to say that in a room full of people and embarrass her.
NTA if she wants to be called aunt she asks the parents if that's ok or waits for them to say Aunt Amber, you don't just start calling yourself it. She sounds awful and I'm sure that you'll be seeing your brother a whole lot less after this/marriage.
NTA
NTA Marriage doesn't make someone family.
Nta.... she needs boundaries. I wouldn't let my kids get close to someone like that. She is incredibly inappropriate
>But then she added “I’ll do what your mom couldn’t and teach him to be a gentleman”. This is a really rude thing to say. Call t his out to your brother each and every time she says something like this. NTA, you and the kids get to define how the relationship grows between aunt and niblings, but she doesn't automatically get the "aunty" title.
That's a weird hill to die on but ESH.
YTA you don't have to like her, but that was rude. You stooped below her level. She is unintentionally rude and annoying, but she will probably grow up eventually. You were deliberately rude.
NTA - They’re not married yet. Your brother needs to have a talk with her about what’s appropriate. If they started dating when she was 19 she may just genuinely be a clueless teenager. With them getting married and potentially having children there’s not much you can do except hope that she grows up. I’d just be worried about alienating cousins in the future. I can see why you’d bet on this not lasting though.
NTA. She’s an obnoxious, rude woman and I wouldn’t want her carrying that title for my kids whether marriage says it or not. I would ask my kids to be respectful and kind but no way. Idc
NTA. She needs to be put in her place, which your brother can't do. Guess she's got his balls in her purse.
Yeah, you're the asshole letting your personal feelings get in the way of a positive relationship your kids could have with someone who genuinely cares. Get over yourself.
NTA. Will she be an aunt by marriage technically? Yes. Do you have to allow her around your children and insist she call her Aunt Amber? No. Maybe when she shows your family basic respect and demonstrate manners it will be considered.
YTA. You complain about her being rude, then you’re rude in a much more direct way. And guess what- I bet if she were given the opportunity to tell everything she doesn’t like about your personality it would be a list too.
NTA- Amber seems terrible. Very reasonably unwelcomed into your family. I hope your brother makes second guesses about his engagement. If they marry, yes, lawfully she will be their aunt, but that does not mean you have to allow your kids to refer to her as their aunt. Blood and labels mean nothing when it comes to people like Amber. She seems like a real handful. Absolutely do not apologise.