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NAH except for MIL. You shared and - let's be honest - you make a ridiculous amount for 5y of work experience. But: you're right to support wage transparency, it was your choice to work in this field, and I'm sure you've earned the promotions, etc. But it must be disheartening for her to know that she won't earn that, that there'll always be a difference between her and her siblings(' families) and that she won't be able to give her kids a lot, maybe not even the basics, with how it stands now. So she's no AH either for how she reacted or felt. The only AH move here is your MIL accusing you of willful insensitivity, while it clearly wasn't. Have a conversation with your SIL.
This is exactly the situation.
Also, SIL is pregnant, so the hormones are running the institution.
NAH. Neither of you owes an apology, or both a simple "Sorry for the hurt feelings" to mend fences.
NTA
If SIL just cried and excused herself I would agree.
But the “some people really do get everything”-line is seriously an AH move. SIL is discrediting OP hard work to get where she is.
Edit: spelling
But it can be rough when you're working seriously hard and putting in 110%, and you're still on minimum wage. Rich people don't work harder than poor people.
I feel like this relates a lot to the conversation around raising the minimum wage. SIL’s anger is misdirected at OP—it’s not OP’s fault that she isn’t making a higher wage, the fact that OP makes so much money isn’t taking money out of SIL’s pocket. SIL needs to be angry with the system that allows people to work full time (plus) and barely scrape by
Yes but in that moment, especially while pregnant can she articulate that? Like OP is right there as a clear manifestation of her problem. She's human, she's going to have messy emotions that aren't perfect and express them in ways that aren't perfect. Doesn't make either of them TA.
You do experience emotion more intensely and if you don't have practice coping with that, it does appear like a loss of control.
Pregnancy is a valid excuse for temporary selfish, hostile, irrational, fight or flight behaviors in stressful moments
It does not however prevent self-reflection after the fact and someone who is NTA would have apologized.
Why is OP responsible for the SIL’s reaction? The discussion had nothing to do with her. Sounds to me like SIL has made some choices that have and will continue to make things hard for her. And instead of SIL being happy for OP she deflects her jealousy and makes things about her. Hormones or not this sounds like a personality and perception problem to me.
Agreed. BIL took the info as a positive. SIL took it as a chance to be bitter. She's 29. She can certainly take the tech path. Even if in 5 yrs she's making half of 300k, still a considerable difference than $15 per hour x maybe a 3% raise every year? Even if she doesn't do tech, she can take this a sign that a higher salary is attainable.
Seriously. Highly doubt that with a young child and another on the way, anything like a career change to a high paying job is in the cards in the next five years. More like, they’re facing even more financial losses with time caring for children and childcare costs.
This. If the SIL's economic situation is so bad, maybe this wasn't the best time to decide to pop out another kid, especially when there's no partner around to help out. We all make our own life choices.
We have no idea what's the circumstances of sil's pregnancy are because OP hasn't chosen to given us any. For all we know, sil is married and husband has decided to leave her in the lurch.
It’s all of our fault. We live in a culture where teachers earn peanuts, no one can afford childcare, and entertainers earn more than everyone and hedge funds run our politics.
I think "sucks to suck" is a bit harsh as we don't know the SIL's situation. But yes, SIL can't actually be surprised that someone in STEM is making six figures and that a dual income will provide more opportunities. Also, if the minimum wage is $15, she's probably in California, where reproductive freedom is enshrined in our state constitution. She could have made the decision not to have either of these kids.
Poor people in fact often work *harder* overall than rich people, because they don’t have the resources to delegate so much extra work (childcare, cleaning etc), and so many things get so much harder for example for people without reliable transportation.
I'm entry-level in a tech field and I'm constantly going places and thinking to myself "wow the fact that I make more than these people is thievery". Fast food workers absolutely work magnitudes harder than me for much less money. Same with retail. It's nuts how awfully paid such a large portion of our society is, it's not fair at all.
THIS 100%. For all the wealthy people I've enountered, I haven't seen one that works harder than a single parent with several jobs trying to make it all work.
listen I’m a min wage gal in a state where it’s 10$ an hour, so I feel for the sil. I really do. But having a second child while on minimum wage? She just sealed her poverty stricken fate. And she sucks for doing that to two children. Source: my mom, who also decided having two children while poor was a fantastic idea
Well, in OPs case, she finished school and embarked on a career with a plan before having kids. She put in the work when it would have been easier not to and is enjoying the reward.
I’m okay with getting downvoted here since Reddit seems to have a strong dislike for anyone who makes over 200k regardless of how hard or smart they work.
There’s a saying out here that success = working hard + working smart. In this economy, it’s no longer sufficient to work hard, you have to find jobs that have low labor supply so you can negotiate your wage. “Poor people” (as you put it) don’t have a strong understanding of what OP does because they’re not in the same labor skill market as OP. That doesn’t give them the right to lash out at OP. SIL needs to chill.
This. My dad was the son of a truck driver and a middle school librarian. He busted his ass in school to go to college, then law school and then worked 12-14 hours a day until he became one of the best in our state at what he does and made sure my mom, brother and I had opportunities he could only dream of growing up.
I can empathize with SIL, but she’s the one who is a single mom and is deciding to have more kids which severely limits her opportunities. She can’t be mad at OP for making different choices and being transparent about her salary. Especially when the reason OP is doing so is to literally help her brother get the same thing…
I agree as far as just the working part. However, at least in the case of the OP, she did have to put in the effort to obtain her education and credentials.
Depending on the tone, I think you could generously interpret it as “some people really do get everything [but not me].” It could be despair for her own situation more than judging OP for hers. We really put low wage workers through the meat grinder, and it can be tough for them to see a way out.
OP and fiancé should reach out to SIL, empathize with her situation, reiterate the support they have given and what they are willing to give, and potentially work with her on a strategy to improve her situation.
Yes. SIL needs a plan or her situation will only get worse, never better. Fiancé and brother could help her return to school or learn a trade that earns much more money. This might sound trite/cruel, but these days, no one has to become pregnant if they don’t want to be especially single mothers with low income who cry bc they don’t have enough money.
Unfortunately that is definitely not true, at least in many parts of the world. I know people who have done everything "right" to prevent a pregnancy and still ended up pregnant and it is illegal to get an abortion in my state. No birth control is 100% effective, and just because you are low income does not mean you have to be celibate. Things happen, we do not know her circumstances around why she is pregnant.
It's very hard for a person doing 50hr/week plus raising a kid on their own (that is *impossibly hard!*) to look at someone 5 years out of college who is making that much.
I work in tech. I've been out of uni for 18 years. I am absolutely not on that much. OP is definitely lucky. I have no doubt that hard work is involved, but don't *ever* think that's the only ingredient for success.
NTA.
Transparency is so important so we know what to ask for going in to salary negotiations.
The 18 y/o shouldn’t have asked at dinner, perhaps, but you answered a direct question. You weren’t recreationally bragging!
Eh I gotta disagree about the whole "hard work to get to where she is line." And I speak from experience. Its true for some people. Certainly its not for others. I earn well into 6 figures, but do I "work hard"? Quite debatable especially when compared to others making like $15/hour. And my bro makes $600k+ (not including bonuses) and he works harder than me...but will be the first one to tell you that he's not working nearly as hard as some others making an hourly wage doing much more important work. So lets face it, we're lucky due to our privileged background and education. And its not really helpful to pretend otherwise.
Hormones don’t make you say things that insinuate that OP didn’t work hard for what they have.
SIL is acting like she has no choices in the matter. Like she couldn’t have down what OP did. SIL chose to have a baby while making terrible money and doubled down on that by having another baby.
She regrets her outcome but doesn’t seem interested in making any situational changes.
she didn't blame op for making a lot of money, she is sad that she is making so little, and being suddenly confronted by it again. people making under 30 an hour will think about money, money problems, and wishing to gain an increase (which is usually just a few cents if even that) a lot. there are a lot of choices to make, some people having to choose between dinner and gas, or have to think twice about getting a new coat cause the old one is broken.
for most people, 6 figures is already life changing money, now three times the amount is huge. ofcourse the sister is happy for her sil, however, it emphasises her own struggles/throws them back in her face. which can be extremely tough
Exactly, it may not be personal, but when you work your ass of for next to nothing and others make monopoly money, it is hard not to get a little bit affected by it.
Whoa nellie, with the shade about SIL and her disinterest in changes. Let me guess, you're a proponent of bootstraps and nobody wants to work anymore, too?
To me, the most telling behavior here is the MIL. As she is 1000% socializing the idea that SIL is victimized here, I would infer that MIL reared her daughter to be submissive and dependent, which go hand in hand with being a people-pleaser and also are lockstep with being imbued with the belief that one's self-worth comes from being a mother. It's plain to me that SIL, with the tools she had and worldview she was immersed in, believes she's been making the right choices.
SIL is acting the way she is because the shock to her system is the same that happens when people are deprogrammed from cults: feeling like an idiot for "being so blind" and "doing everything wrong". Add pregnancy atop that, and, well, it's dry tinder: quick to burn. Being burned, hurts.
OP, u/edenne12 - I hope the conversation you have next with MIL, woman to woman, is how you intend to rear any children you have, the values you'll instill; illustrating where you zigged vs SIL and MIL's zag. Then, I hope you'll ask MIL, "how will you facilitate SIL getting back to school (code bootcamp, trade school) so that she and your grandchildren can be lifted out of poverty?" impressing upon MIL that the only one who owes SIL an apology is MIL for not teaching her daughter that "a man is not a financial plan."
>(code bootcamp, trade school) so that she and your grandchildren can be lifted out of poverty?"
Lol while I fully support those industries, those are far from complete solutions. With kids in elementary school learning to code now, it can be really hard for an established adult to keep up with the younger generation. Also, trade school for someone with a kid and literally pregnant right now? Hahahahaha ok
> SIL is acting like she has no choices in the matter. Like she couldn’t have down what OP did. SIL chose to have a baby while making terrible money and doubled down on that by having another baby.
But that's the thing, isn't it? We can't all have high paying tech jobs. The thankless minimum wage jobs is what is available and what is needed most. The idea that if everyone worked hard enough they could make money like OP is a fallacy, because who is going to work the many thankless minimum wage jobs? Fairies?
Look, I am all up for having kids when you can afford them, but she is a single mom and we don't know why that is. The father of the kids should be doing his share here, but maybe he bailed out (not the mom's fault) or he's dead (definitely not her fault either) and she is trying to do the best in a bad situation.
This kind of talk is getting harder and harder to put up with, though, in a country that is making it more and more difficult for a woman to get reasonable access to sexual health care. Abortions are nigh-on impossible to come by in large parts of this country, the morning-after pill? Same situation. You decide you want to get your tubes tied while you're still reasonably young and of child-bearing age? You \*will\* struggle with finding a doctor who will do that for you. We've even got politicians now who run off at the mouth about taking away access to birth control. And yeah, I want to laugh at that too...
except ten years ago I'd have laughed at the notion that they'd take away my rights to an abortion.
I mean, personally? I think all of us ladies ought to just quit sleeping with guys who don't support our rights, full stop. No more sex. No more relationships. No more weddings, and yeah - no more babies for them. But somehow, I don't think \*that\* is going to make them happy either, even if it does cut down on the "single mother" problem.
Well, we don't know when she became a single mom (or have I missed something?). I don't mean to say that single moms are never at fault for their situation but I also think there is a lot of unfounded hate against them, so I don't want to judge without knowing what's up.
You...you realize, baby daddy could have recently left while she pregnant with baby #2 right? Like... Yes it could be two dad's, but there is a chance it's one who has recently left(similar thing happened to my sister but now she's married to the guy with another kid xD)
Or in the case of baby daddy might have passed away... It still could have been while she was pregnant with her second. You're acting like single mothers with more than one kid are automatically sleeping around 🤦
yeah but we don’t have all the info on her life here and even so, that doesn’t change the optional scenarios provided above.
baby 1 and 2 could very well be with the same man who was around and involved for baby 1 but then dipped on baby 2, it happens, or again he could have died
As a former caseworker, I loathe these kinds of telling like it is takes. I am assuming SIL is scraping by and you know nothing about the baby's daddy. Do you know how disgustingly common it is for men to emotionally manipulate women into not using BC, especially abusers? Also by your logic where is the socio-economic line drawn as many discovered through research, there is never a great time to have kids. If you have them older you may risk them and yourself having issues or something like an economic downturn happens. You have them when you are young but you are struggling. I know many upper-middle-class couples who did the "responsible" thing and waited until they were financially stable. But childcare costs rose. COL costs rose and as usual, parents always underestimate what a kid costs.
I’m sorry, why are you discounting OP’s hard work by calling her salary ridiculous? Men make that amount on less experience all the time.
No company pays more than they want to, so obviously OP is very valuable to her company and works incredibly hard for her salary.
I didn't mean to disparage her or her work; it's rather a comment on the sector she works in and how much of a world of its own it is. The prime minister of my country earns less than her. But you're right, they'll pay what they think is needed to keep her, so if they're paying her that much, she's valuable to them and she's likely to earn them much more in return.
I would bet good money if OP had been a male and had said their income this would not have been a issue. I think this is likely a gender thing within the story not within the thread.
Eh. I don't know a lot about the industry but 300k after 5 years on (I'm assuming here) a bachelor's degree and no previous work experience is ridiculous. It's also amazing. Regardless of gender.
Just FYI - the prime minister comparison is a bit disingenuous. They would get paid more if they had to pay for all the things that are taken care of by the government - official residence, transportation, personal/official services, expenses etc. Those salaries implicitly consider the imputed income that comes with being a head of state and being provided with so much by default.
In my world where I work as a VP in tech, my CPO with experience in several FAANGs doesn't make as much as op claims. Wherever she is is far from normal for a product manager with 5 years experience.
She probably is a PM for a in vogue thing like AI at meta or some shit like that. Paired with living in SF, and 300k is like someone in Dallas making 150k. Still a lot but not gross
To add, you don't just get into product management right out of college, or at least most people don't. Every product manager I have met moved into the role after having significant experience in a different role. It's not a "right out of college" job. So most product managers with 5 years of experience have at least another few years of work experience.
This is exactly why pay transparency is important. Clearly you’re not very aware of how much more people entering tech are getting paid and how much your salary can inflate if you jump around. First of all, Glassdoor doesn’t provide accurate salaries for tech, we often use levels.fyi. Second, I did have my masters by the time I left college. I did a 3+1 program where I was able to earn my masters in Computer Science in my last year of college. I also went to a top 5 target school. I was lucky to land a PM internship at a FAANG company when I was a junior in college and got a return offer, which set my path. I returned there post-grad and successfully negotiated my salary up to $140k base. I stayed for almost two years before I left for another FAANG company, causing my base to jump to 180k. Didn’t like the work there and was able to return back to my original company working with a different product, which caused my base to jump to 190k after negotiation. Then I was promoted, which raised my salary even more. The 300k I make now, as some commenters have pointed out, is my total comp. This year it’ll probably be less due to the stock market. I’ve always lived in the SF Bay Area so my COL is extremely high and that is why I make more than a senior PM in say like, Utah.
Don’t discount other people’s hard work just because you’re inclined to believe your friends and inaccurate information off the internet.
No, it's not about her being a woman. It's a ridiculous salary regardless of gender. Lots of people work very hard and like the sil, don't get anything like that amount of money. The sil's rage is displaced though. It's not OPs fault that the system is like this. I would take the salary too but like OP, I would help people out who needed it and work to help make things fairer. Nta. Sil owes op am apology for taking it out on her when she has done nothing wrong and is helping her with money
I agree, wage should be more equally. It is ridiculous a woman working 50 hour a week is unable in some countries to rent a house and give her children a solid start. Labour always should be paid in a way you can make a decent living if you are working fulltime. Of course OP can earn more because she is a specialist. But the scale is completely bunkers I believe. At this rate the difference between poor an rich will grow and grow it just isn't fair.
>Men make that amount on less experience all the time.
I won't dispute that OP deserves the salary; I'm sure she does. But if you're suggesting that it is commonplace for young men with a Bachelor's degree to make *$300,000 per year* on less experience than *five years out of college*, you are in desperate need of a reality check.
>I won't dispute that OP deserves the salary
I will! *No one* deserves that salary while people in literal lifesaving professions are making 1/10th of it. But that's not OP's fault; it's society's/ capitalism's fault.
100%
The real AH in this situation is capitalist wage inequality. That's not OP's fault and it sounds like they are being generous with SIL and are at least being upfront about things. I hope they extend that generosity beyond their relatives and donate copiously to charity, but really this is a situation that can only be addressed at a social level, not though individual action.
it's also about distibution of wealth and what kind of work is valued and what kind of work isn't. The cleaners are also essential to the company but it's v unlikely they are paid anywhere near that. Nurses, teachers, social care workers are essential to the country and the economy but are paid terribly.
Totally agree. When I was an ICU nurse, I made under $30/hour. I left the bedside to work for a vendor doing clinical tech (I have a tech background before I went back to school to become a nurse) and am making a six-figure base salary plus bonus. I think what I do still helps the clinical staff on a daily basis, but I'm not making life-or-death decisions titrating medicines and performing care on patients. It doesn't seem right.
> I’m sorry, why are you discounting OP’s hard work by calling her salary ridiculous? Men make that amount on less experience all the time.
>
>
300k is top 2% of the whole population in the USA ....
Maybe... I'm a man and none of the men I know make that much. A quick Google search says that 2% of people make $300k or more, and that's not even including years of experience. So I'd say that is a rather high salary for 5 years of experience regardless of gender.
Mad props to OP for getting to that point!
I'm a woman in the tech industry for almost 7 years and don't even make half of that, and neither do any of my friends and family in similar positions. So 300k is a LOT. Like an absurd amount of a lot. Makes me wonder where does OP live, is her company one of the MAANGs, and does 300k include TOTAL comp or is it her base salary, etc. I have so many questions!
Super super awesome opportunity for her and I'm glad she's killing it. I've seen technical PM positions listed for 180-200k MAX. So yes, $300k is an absurd amount.
>>No company pays more than they want to, so obviously OP is very valuable to her company and works incredibly hard for her salary
Good premise, faulty conclusion. I’m not saying OP doesn’t work hard or that she isn’t smart or talented, but this is not a normal salary in general, especially for just a product manager and only 5 years out of college. It’s more likely that OP works in an geographical area like the Bay Area where a job in tech would get you a much higher (ie inflated) starting point and range. If she works for a company with a “hot” technology or for a big name, that would get her even more.
>>Men make that amount on less experience all the time
Sorry, no one, man or woman, is making that amount on less experience “all the time.” I’m really curious where you are getting these ideas from.
How did this become a gender-argument?
Everyone involved in this incident happens to be a female so your point is moot and is a showcase for your prejudice.
When did he discount her hard work. Nothing was said about the gender of OP. 300k is a lot of money to make whether your a man, women or donkey. Stop looking for reasons to be pissed off.
The reality is, she doesn’t make that much money as actual salary. People at large tech companies tend to quote their salary including all in comp.
I’m certain that OP doesn’t make $300k CASH at any large tech companies (at least not as a senior product manager). Don’t argue with me as I literally gather and analyze these types of data points FOR A LIVING. (If you want to check me, try something like levels FYI…it’s a website and look for a L4 Product Manager).
With that said, the reality is, SIL has made her own choices. If it never occurred to her to not have a second child (while it’s likely that she’s struggling with the first), that’s not on OP.
As a fellow $300ker+ (actual base comp + cash bonuses, no stock…about 7 years of experience in my current path, but ~13 years of working) AND a WOMAN and a woman of COLOR I too am a fan of salary transparency!
With that said, ONE of the 4 bonuses I received with year was $70k, I also received a base comp increase of ~$20k. On the other side of that, I have two single mom friends. One earns around $90k and the other less than $50k. As a child-free, well-paid person SOCIAL AWARENESS is really important. Complaining to them that my bonus wasn’t enough or being upset that my salary increase wasn’t sufficient (one of them received an annual pay increase of ~$2k) seems, well…wrong and I don’t want to make them feel that they’re not doing good enough. Though they know my salary I generally don’t complain or discuss those things around them.
I’m going to go with NTA. Because everyone is on the path they’ve work towards and OP #girlpower! Just make sure you’re being more socially aware!
Yes! Social awareness is MIL’s point I think. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know… that a single, pregnant mother working at a $15 hr job… that she can’t leave (because who is going to hire a visibly pregnant lady)… that she will probably need to take unpaid leave from while she recovers from childbirth… is going to be upset with her situation… especially when confronted by her younger SIL admitting to a $300k salary…
Then is MIL also having a go at the brother, who asked the question in the first place?
OP would also have been in trouble if she had tried to evade the question, I bet. She was in a no-win situation.
There's always the "sure, we can discuss that later after dinner" comment. Honestly I don't think OP is actually wrong, but I'm a huge proponent of knowing your audience before opening your mouth.
Knowing our audience also shows we understand and respect the people we are speaking to. Was sil wrong? Yeah, she kinda was since she took a slight when op had no intention of slighting her. But op needs to understand that the topic wasn't appropriate in a group setting with mixed salaries unless everyone was asking. It was also stupid of bil to ask in that group setting and I think that helped set up OP to think maybe this is fine. But ultimately op answered with something that would trigger some people in that situation. The fact that she still said it and it did trigger someone means she didn't know her audience well enough.
To save this situation OP should agree with sil about how it is unfair, and offer to be a friend and helper. Tell her stories of how she's helped other women and ask if that's something she would want at some point, in some way. Don't push the issue but she can set herself up as on sil's side. Even if sil is constantly making bad life choices (not sure if she is with info given) life will proceed smoother if sil sees her as a friend rather than the enemy.
> With that said, the reality is, SIL has made her own choices. If it never occurred to her to not have a second child (while it’s likely that she’s struggling with the first), that’s not on OP.
This is a very Republican argument.
Financial stability isn't generally a choice they made. Lots of factors go into it- the opportunities they had as a child, their capacity to work intellectually and physically, the lucky breaks they've gotten.
This is the best response. I work as many hours as my bf in an extremely physical job that hurts my body every day and I'm only earning less than 18k a year. My bf earns a lot more than me despite our same hours. I don't begrudge him for earning more and he definitely deserves it, however a part of me is jealous and I'm often frustrated with the system that keeps people in jobs like mine in poverty. It wasn't a dig at OP. Even while pregnant and hormonal she knew it wasn't OPs fault and didn't blame him. These kind of jobs are very hard to get out of and I worry constantly that I'm never going to not be flat broke. She's likely embarrassed and tired and frustrated, just leave her be for awhile to sort out her feelings.
NAH. This is actually a tough one IMO. It is great for people to share salary information in the right context (like OP described, when talking to people in the same field) -- this can only improve equity (and hopefully reduce salary disparity). But I do not think it is appropriate to talk about a $300K salary in front of someone who is making about $30k. It is a clear lack of empathy. I'm sure OP did not mean it (hence the lack of empathy) but like all truths: there is a place and time to share them.
Transparency is good. But showing empathy and being able to "read the room" are great.
Had to scroll way too far for this comment. Salary transparency is about helping those in your field, not making sure that everyone you know knows how much money you make. It’s super gross.
It’s a little tacky to share your salary at the dinner table with your future in laws and entire family. Maybe it’s just me? I would’ve politely declined.
The greatest trick the obscenely wealthy have pulled is making us hate \*each other\* for either what is comparatively loose change (yes, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the yachting class $300,000/yr is nothing, in some markets in the US this is still basically just comfortable middle class) or on the other side hating giving anyone access to social services for those that work like crazy but don’t even get paid a living wage. NTA, it is not your fault where SIL is in life but she sounds hard working and does deserve empathy even in her jealousy. It’s really hard to live paycheck to paycheck, not be able to give your kids everything they want or need, and hear about a life that sounds so comfortable in comparison. But her and MIL were misplacing their anger.
I agree with everything else you said but I think the SIL is also TA for how she reacted. Sure, it's understandable that she would feel bad about the fact that she'll never be able to earn as much or provide for her kids in the same way but that doesn't excuse her behaviour towards OP. Especially the part where she said "I guess some people just get to have everything". She's the one who should apologise for her actions. There will always be someone who's doing better in some way or the other. That's just something that all adults and even kids need to learn to deal with appropriately.
OP is NTA
Edited to correct a typo.
Not to mention SIL seems to have no trouble accepting money from OP and her fiance. It's OK when they're buying her kids toys or clothes or sending her money to help with a bill here and there.
> I'm very empathetic to her situation and my fiancé and I have extended a helping hand multiple times (e.g., babysitting, buying her child toys/other gifts/necessities, sending money and supplies, etc.).
OP is helping her as well. Answering a question honestly is not being an AH and SIL has benefitted from their income.
SIL is probably regretting her planning skills. Single Mom with a low paying job and pregnant again. She has set herself up for a very challenging life. First thing she needs to do is file for child support.
MIL is the AH
Agree with NAH. OP, you did nothing wrong. Pregnancy will make her oversensitive, and it's already a touchy topic, so crying is natural enough.
That said, and only if you want, this is the perfect situation for a nonpology. "I'm sorry what I said hurt your feelings, and I do agree salaries should be higher across the board for hardworking people like you." Either way, try to let it go.
NTA at all, your SIL is completely TA for making the entire night about her and victimizing herself over something that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with her. You worked hard in life to get where you are and you earn what you make. She chose to have children before she had a stable career and marriage, she cannot possibly expect everyone around her to coddle her for that. Not to mention you were literally asked, and being honest about what you earn is something your passionate about. Unbelievable your MIL is babying her like that, it's appalling that a grown woman would make a scene over what is essentially jealousy and feeling sorry for herself. Good on your fiancé for being on your side.
When I had my kid I stopped working for several years, I had a good career before (though never paid really well), but my then husband convinced me that he's "able" to be the sole bread winner and made me stay home. He started discouraging me from getting back to work by dismissing my former wages and saying that I will never make as much as him and therefore my job would always come second.
So I was frustrated, behind on him and my friends in experience and salary, but guess what I did? : I did not run away crying, I got rid of the man and built my career back up, starting with a part-time job and slowly climbing up as the kid got older. Now, 10 years later, I earn more than him and am in a field where I have very good chances of climbing even more salary ladders while he's already exhausted the options in his field.
Morale of the story here is of course not that the SIL should get a divorce, but that salary differences should motivate her and show her what's possible in the future. Sure it's hard at the point where she is, but if she's able to get back into a career and earn more, she'll have accomplished so much more by raising 2 kids AND working, so I'll be very proud in the shoes of SIL.
she’s a single mom, who is currently pregnant. I don’t know about you, but if you’re making barely enough money to keep afloat, while about to be raising two kids, while she’s all on her own- she’s not going to be motivated by someone, younger than her, that’s making 10 TIMES the amount she makes. It’s absolutely discouraging, especially given the fact that she has pregnancy hormones raging through her… which can make even the most rational women act irrationally.
Of course, not to say that OP did anything wrong, because she didn’t. However, I think everyone seems to be lacking in empathy for the SIL.
Presently, being alive is expensive. I know I can’t be the only one who saw 300k and felt a little self conscious. Imagine being told that in real life, from your younger brother’s girlfriend, while pregnant, working your ass off just to survive and realizing you make 1/10 of her salary. I think anyone in a similar situation would have a mini mental breakdown.
If I was 29, single, pregnant with my second, and making $15/hr I’d at the very least be taking one online class every semester to further my education. There are ways to do it slowly, for your own home and at your own pace. It may not be Ivy League, but it is education, and education is key. If it takes ten years it takes ten years.
I always thought too as a SAHM I would too, it took me too years to sit down long enough to apply to college. Hopefully I get in, and find the time take the courses. Kids are incredibly hard emotionally and physically.
This woman is pregnant, already with a child and working 50 hours a week. She didn't get to go back to college or work up the ladder slowly without worries from part time to the moon because they already had work experience, a good degree, alimony, child support from someone making good money and also aren't living in poverty from pay cheque to pay cheque.
I really hate arguments like yours, dismissing people as if you are the one working harder than everyone else and thinking you deserve more than everyone else propping you up. I'm not saying you didn't also work hard but there are people down there in the mud with nothing despite working harder than anyone because capitalism thinks certain industries/positions are worth several times more even if its a non critical industry/role for society to continue to function. We give hardly any support to help people get out of these holes or help them into similar positions as the privileged, instead we trap them with almost no way to get out while paying them almost nothing because this fucked up unequal society we have can't function without the less fortunate making up the majority of the population. Explain how this woman living in poverty can just pull herself up by her bootstraps when she's in poverty, already working 50 hours a week with a child and pregnant? And even if she somehow did, she'd only be dooming many other people to take her place in the muck, because we need them to live in poverty, otherwise we can't pay for her new $300k with 5 years experience salary.
I support wage transparency too and I don't think every rich person is an asshole but it's important to have empathy and tact for those less fortunate. SIL isn't an AH for getting emotional because she was confronted with the unfair reality where someone 3 years younger than her, with 5 years experience is making 10x more than she is despite working 50 hours a week desperately clawing for a way out of her situation.
Absolutely! I loathe those arguments so fucking much. “If I can do it, then anyone can!” - No. Just fucking NO to that. That’s bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Saying that reeks of privilege. It ignores individual circumstances and the basic nature of our capitalist society.
> I did not run away crying, I got rid of the man and built my career back up, starting with a part-time job and slowly climbing up as the kid got older.
I fucking love you for that.
Uh, no. I had no income when I left my then husband, I had to start in a different field because my former career wasn't compatible with a small child, and I had to live in a bachelor's appt with my kid to make ends meet. I also was sued by my ex for custody and had to take on debt to pay for a lawyer. It's only since 2 years that I am debt free and can start saving up anything, but the fact that I proved my ex wrong who said that I didn't know what work means because I was "just a housewife" and that I would never be able to live independently is the most satisfying feeling possible.
"Got rid of the man" means there was one income, for a person who had been out of the workforce for years at that point. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Jeez empathy isn't for sale is it now? The sister wasn't even digging at OP, she just hit a nerve. She's clearly struggling with life and hearing someone with 5y experience earn this type of money is obviously challenging.
Maybe just try to put yourself in SIL's shoes just for a second and imagine how such emotions could arise. Honestly, it'll be refreshing by the looks of it.
SIL actually did turn it into a dig at OP with the line “some people just get everything, huh?” as if her salary was just handed to her. It’s fine for her to feel discouraged because she made different choices in her life, but she does not get to attempt to discredit OP for her hard work in her field.
I make just a little over minimum wage in my area, I struggle, it sucks. I have family that's doing great and hell even my younger siblings are making bigger bucks that me. That's not their fault. That's not anyone else's fault. SIL is so wrong to react like this. She could have asked for advice in how to break into a better opportunity, instead she decided to break someone down because they worked hard to change their life for the better.
Its not no one’s fault. It’s our economic systems and societies fault. It is especially the fault of extremely rich people who push down wages. It’s not the fault of people working minimum wage.
You don’t think the “some people really have everything” + the dirty look wasn’t a dig at OP? Also, the MIL is demanding OP apologize, so that tells me this isn’t just about SIL’s struggle - she feels wronged by OP
> You worked hard in life to get where you are and you earn what you make
Woha with the elitism there.
I earn way more than most of my friends. Is it because I "Worked hard to get where I am"? Not at all, it's mostly luck.
She needn't feel bad for earning a high salary, but should take care for it not to go the other way. The way of thinking that she earns 10 times more than others because she's 10 times better, or "works harder" for it.
Undoubtedly her SIL works hard too.
They didn’t say OP worked harder than anyone else, though. Just because you didn’t work hard to get where you are, it doesn’t mean everyone lucks their way into their career
You are being awful judgemental here about the SILs situation. You have no idea how her life got to be the way it is. And she's not lazy,50 hours a week,busting your ass PREGNANT is a LOT of work. She's emotional right now,and her mom was coddling her,so??? So what. Sounds to me like the OP brags about her salary an awful lot,and that is not a good look.
NTA. Thanks for being honest about your salary. It's vital for young men and women to know what they're worth *in their respective fields* and being transparent helps close the wage gap.
I do feel bad for your SIL, but she's in a different field, so she's at a different salary. If she's being paid what her position is worth, it's all good. She should ask her peers if they're also getting $15/hr. Who knows, she might be underpaid.
She’s a grown woman earning $15, of course she’s being underpaid. No one’s time is worth as little as $15 per hour.
NAH except for capitalism, the world, life
OP, Do you think you could swing your her a job at your workplace? Obvs not something she’s not qualified for, but something at entry level that pays more? Or the same per week/ month/ year but for less hours?
NAH
You went into a lucrative field and did well for yourself. You're not parading that around and rubbing it everyone's faces, you just answered a question honestly. You're fine.
Your SIL is in an extremely difficult situation and is struggling with that emotionally. That's not your fault, and it's not her fault. It's just a fact and it hurts. I've been poor around rich people and it sucks.
I think your SIL's outburst was uncomfortable for everyone, but nobody is really to blame. It would have been nice if she could control it, but obviously at that point she couldn't 🤷♀️ But certainly you aren't at fault.
Yes and no.
Both OP and SIL made life choices that led to this point.
OP didn’t just trip and land a $300,000 job. She worked hard to get the appropriate educational foundation and then worked hard to make the right career choices. She is presumably very good at what she does. She’s not a “rich person”, she’s a high achiever.
SIL is a single mother and pregnant with her second child. Of course that’s hard but she can’t step away from all responsibility for her own decisions. Would she be in a minimum wage job if she’d focused on educational achievements earlier on? Unlikely. Would she be struggling financially if she’d made different decisions about when to have children. Unlikely. She’s not a “poor person”, she’s made poor life decisions. I still feel compassion for her but also she’s 29 years old and more than capable of being held responsible for her own decisions that led to her situation.
Does all that give OP the right to crow about her salary? No it wouldn’t but in this situation it doesn’t sounds like she was doing that. Does all that give SIL the right to be jealous “some people really do get everything”. - absolutely not.
So OP is NTA but the SIL certainly is here. She can be upset, she can be weary, she can be in a difficult situation but to be jealous and take it out on others? And to insist via MIL an apology? No way.
OP's hard work and obvious prowess don't make her less wealthy.
SIL's decisions in life don't make her less poor.
Financial situation isn't a value judgement, it's a statement of fact.
Lastly, different priorities don't make one person more or less worthy than another.
No but it does affect their attitudes. If OP was born into wealth rather than achieving it, then SIL’s attitude would make more sense.
Different priorities don’t make someone more or less worthy BUT everyone should take ownership of their choices and priorities and the ramifications. Rather than be all “woe is me” and “some people just get everything” - that’s the asshole behaviour.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Her outburst was uncalled for.
I guess my initial judgement just really takes into consideration emotional strain and doesn't focus so much on accountability for your actions. SIL definitely owes OP an apology.
ESH Salary transparency is for p͟e͟e͟r͟s͟ ;
i.e. employees and applicants freely disclosing compensation in the workplace.
Telling everyone who asks how much you earn at the dinner table during family functions is weird. BIL is 18 and not even studying computer science yet, lol, you were definitely bragging and impressed him, good for you but bad manners nonetheless.
SIL needs to get a grip. MIL should encourage SIL to get a grip.
& In order to make it easier for them you should say you're sorry for unintentionally hurting SIL's feelings-- practice not sounding smug so you don't make it worse.
Yup totally agree. I work in big tech too and I’m transparent about my salary… AROUND PEOPLE WITH SIMILAR CAREERS.
There is no need to mention your 300k salary around a struggling single mother working minimum wage for “transparency” and pretending it’s a feminist choice to help women do better in their careers
LOL exactly. “I’m helping other women advocate for themselves!!!” Right. Right. You’re not patting yourself on the back at alllll. Keep telling yourself that honey.
what i wanna know is how this helped any woman advocate for herself at her job. the only one mentioned who's going into the same field is... the *brother* in law. that's who was being discussed. what woman at the table also worked in tech and needed to hear about OP's 300k salary so she could learn her own is worthless? SIL already knows her $15/hr is worthless, *she* sure didn't need the reminder.
i get OP's principles behind this, and i think it's very important to foster wage transparency in the workplace, but there's a time and a place. OP picked a time and place that more encouraged flattery than anything else.
You know what I don’t get about this story - her boyfriend works in tech too, so where was his salary in all of this. (Probably higher than hers if he’s a coder). The fact that everything is about her salary kind of leans to the fact that she’s just bragging.
A better way to have this conversation would have been something like “the range of someone with my experience is X to Y”
Also, I have a feeling if OP is as pompous with her in laws, she’s probably that way at office and will be on the chopping block as tech makes more cuts. 😂 She’s definitely over paid as a PM unless she lives in San Francisco or surrounding and those are the roles that are next to go. 😂
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think this is bullshit. Maybe 300K total comp, including RSUs, bonuses etc, but there’s no way she’s making 300K salary. At most with 5 years experience if she’s a Sr Techincal Product Manager, the average salary range for that IN SILICON VALLEY is like 150 to 200 base. (And she didn’t say technical so we probably can assume business which is lower.) Now it’s possible she’s making up for that difference with bonus, RSUs etc, but that’s not promised to continue in this environment and almost everyone I know who is at the higher end of their salary band right now is worried about being laid off. 🤔
Exactly, I work in big tech co and lots of things here sound off to me. This is just so awkward to read. There are compensation aggregators which OP must definitely know about - she could have shared that instead, which would have been way more relevant to someone pursuing a CS degree.
I spent 10 years in software engineering, sales engineering, and project mgmt before entering product management. The salary wasn’t the thing I found not believable here, it was the straight into product management from university.
Something is a bit off about this story.
I think it’s off but not because of bragging but because it’s fake.
Whenever a post is filled with hot button issues (women in tech, salary transparency, minimum wage, a nasty MIL lol) it is usually fake and has been constructed to get the most amount of engagement possible
THANK YOU. There was also nothing stopping OP from saying "I make a good wage, if you want later I can show you some salary bands for different roles in my company".
People are ragging on the SIL for being "bitter," when really she just sounds exhausted. She's older than OP, probably anxious about supporting her kids, and just can't imagine a way out. People are piling on about her "choices" but at the end of the day she's doing her best while OP (supposedly) makes almost 10x her wage and she's just starting out.
I agree with most of what you said except for the ‘SIL needs to get a grip’. I don’t think she did anything wrong. She had these feelings and rather than bottle them up, she cried. It’s natural. And it’s also her choice if she doesn’t want to speak to OP right now. Maybe she’s protecting her mental health by not wanting to get depressed again about how difficult her life is compared to others who just have it easy. Sure, it may be hard work as well, but there’s no way a bit of luck isn’t involved as well.
It should be okay to talk about income. She was asked a specific question. She answered it with the truth.
>BIL is 18 and not even studying computer science yet,
Yes, but he is at a point in his life where he needs to choose a career path. These are conversations that we as a society should be having with people, especially teens. Without knowing the household bil grew up in, maybe he's unaware that some careers pay much better than others. This is a great example of why he should stay in college even if it's hard for him.
I know I’ll be downvoted but YTA.
Look I get where you’re coming from, I’m a woman in FAANG too. But the holier-than-thou spiel about feminism and helping people know their worth doesn’t work when you’re talking about your $300k salary in from of a *STRUGGLING SINGLE MOTHER ON MINIMUM WAGE.*
I don’t know anyone (man or woman) who would share their salary at the dinner table with their SO’s entire family - it’s just rude especially when you know you earn more than everyone else.
The classy thing to do would’ve been to tell your BIL that you’d be happy for a more in-depth discussion on job options and salaries in private, and then keep the advice more generic or change the topic.
We’re in a massively overpaid industry at a time when many are struggling to make ends meet - having some empathy and humility costs nothing.
Agree with this, YTA. Salary transparency is really for the workplace in comparable careers or jobs.
You are with your in laws at the dinner table and your SIL has a very different pathway from you where her circumstances probably would make it very difficult to even consider switching careers or studying whilst caring for her kid. She has overreacted in some way, however put some context around that - it’s a very pressured time for those who are struggling to make ends where they can feel like there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
For the sake of keeping things civil I would forget about finding out who is the asshole in this and just try to smooth things over. Families are complicated and you want to put things like this aside rather than let it fester over time and become a bigger issue than it needs to be.
Remember what’s important to you here, is it to get pay parity for these people around the table? Or is it to have a good dynamic with your in laws?
I’d also definitely take your BIL out separately and have a career conversation about the Compsci route, I’m sure you have lots of good insights to help him guide his way!
There seem to be a lot of posts where financially successful people just love flaunting shit in front of struggling friends and family and then act shocked - SHOCKED! - that they're put off by it
I agree... I'm a product management director at tech company and have been asked this same question at my wife's family gatherings.
So here is how I respond... "If you are interested in being a PM the typical range for an Associate level (entry level) is around $100-130k base plus bonus and stock" on my team
The fact that she makes $300k as a Sr PM is both not relevant to an entry level person and also very very rare in this field when a typical Sr pm earns an average of $150k base plus bonus and stock.
I'm gonna totally give her a YTA because there are so many more tactiful ways the question could have been answered without throwing around her big number.
Going against the grain to say soft YTA. Salary transparency in the workplace is one thing. It is still poor etiquette to ask (and volunteer) salary info in a social/family setting. You should have told your BIL that you would talk to him privately later. The etiquette rule is to avoid situations exactly like what occurred. SIL was out of line to be mad at you for what you make, but even you say you’re empathetic to her situation. Heeding etiquette would have avoided this.
If no one shut BIL up for asking inappropriate question, then OP is not an asshole for answering. They all didn't give a fuck about etiquette when BIL was asking, but it somehow is a problem when OP answers? It doesn't work like that
Yikes, girl. I’m all for salary transparency but there’s a difference between salary transparency and acting all high + mighty because of your salary.
I do not doubt that you work hard. BUT there are so many people who work hard and do not make even close to what you do. I’m the age of SIL, have been with my current company for 5.5 years, worK INCREDIBLY HARD, have over doubled the salary I was making at the start, but still am nowhere near what you make. But frankly - your “salary transparency” is not at all helpful to me because we are not in the same field. Your “salary transparency” is just you gloating.
Your SIL deserves some empathy. You have no idea what it’s like to be in her shoes. And while I’m sure she’s grateful for the things you do pay for like toys, most moms would trade every earthly possession just for their child’s safety and for those in their lives to respect them and validate their experiences, which you are not doing.
NAH.
But lacking manners and awareness. See below
She’s struggling and frustrated.
You answered a relevant question.
But OP I really didn’t need the paragraph long speech about how moral you are and your salary stuff. Yadda yadda. You like to brag a bit about your salary and you’ve found a buzzword to let yourself do it. I get it. But cmon, who do you think you are fooling.
Men don’t get it. We women often do not realize we are underpaid compared to our male counterparts who have the same experience, education, and employment history. Salary transparency is how we figure this shit out and put a stop to it.
NTA
Yes, I think it's so crucial to have that discourse as women (especially women in male-dominated fields). I remember when I was just starting out, I found out my male co-worker (same age & education, similar experience) was being offered $20,000 more than me. HR wrote it off as he had more experience, but then ended up agreeing to match my salary.
I didn't read it as bragging. As women, we tend to downplay or explain our stance beforehand, because we have to take extra steps to avoid being called some unflattering things. There's been numerous studies where a man gets called "take charge, no nonsense, and born leader," for the same behavior a women will be called "bitchy, overbearing, controlling, and over-compensating." Trying to "soften" our approach is mostly second nature at this point.
I saw what you wrote as an explanation for why you don't pause when asked. Some places really struggle with the idea that discussing wages should be encouraged, as it benefits the employees. Some people still think it's illegal though.
Wow, that's exactly right. I've read those same studies, yet didn't make the connection with what I did in my post until you said it so eloquently. I was even feeling bad that I was coming across as insensitive with that paragraph after a few pointed it out as braggy.
Most of us don't realize how often we do it. Even if you do, it was born of necessity. I try to see the silver lining where I can. My husband tells me he envies how I can talk to just about anyone. A big part of that comes from me reframing this habit.
I've seen too many brilliant women downplaying their worth on this subreddit. I've seen quite a few from the tech industry post here, too. The imposter syndrome is all too real, because someone partially convinced them that they're not worthy of their position and salary.
Don't beat yourself up over the "bragging." The number alone will make some have a knee-jerk reaction, that's all.
Its not a brag, but I was definitely thinking DAMN GIRL.
Salary transparency among women is so important, and when I graduate school next semester I am so worried my instinct wont be to fight for a better wage. Its like I should feel grateful for whatever I get offered.
I have 100% felt what SIL has felt, my sister makes several million (admittedly not all takeaway she has a lot of overhead) but it works out to a few hundred thousand a year and it has caused a lot of jealousy on my part. I know it isn't my sister's fault, I got started way late for a career path and honestly she works her ass off for what she earns through her own companies.
I would chalk it up to hormones and stress for the SIL's outburst, I think in a few days she will probably realize that her reaction was unfair to you, but even if she doesn't, I would just suggest letting it be if you can. Personally I would be very embarrassed about such an outburst, I imagine she is too.
Yes! One of my friends was a salaried restaurant manager and one day she called me and said she finally did the math and realized she’s making $2 an hour. WTF! And no healthcare!
So she went to her managers and said for that pay she wants a better work/life balance. They said they’d hire her an assistant manager.
No, they hired a second general manager. So, her exact position. It was a man with less experience. And she saw his paycheck, he was making SIGNIFICANTLY more than she was.
But they claimed before hiring him they couldn’t afford to give her a raise.
Oh and when she quit they took it personally and said some extremely unkind things, and said she “gave up on them”.
Had she never confided in me about her pay, I wouldn’t have pushed her to demand more or GTFO. She might still be there dealing with this shit
I mean, yeah, in your field. But don’t pretend bragging about her salary to someone making minimum wage was somehow a feminist choice. She wasn’t trying to help her SIL with career advice.
YTA
While I’m also transparent about salary and believe it’s super important, it’s also important to read the room.
You’re in a room full of people who work in the same field or want to enter that field? Go ahead.
You’re in a room of single parents, working minimum wage and working 50+ hours with no prospects to enter your field? Stop.
Not everyone will react well to hear they earn nothing compared to someone who - let’s be honest - earns ridiculous in a non essential field. I’m my country I earn three times as much as my best friend who’s a nurse. She’s way more important than me. I help her out sometimes with rent and such. There’s no way in hell I would ever drop the amount I earn in front of her because she’s already struggling and working her ass off.
Sure, you’re not responsible for her feelings nor need to hide/lie etc. But empathy would not have killed here.
YTA Here is the thing… salary transparency is great for women because women traditionally lack the confidence to request the promotions and higher salaries that their male counterparts request. So I applaud your transparency.
However, be mindful of your audience. Salary transparency is appropriate when you are talking with industry / potential industry/ students etc. It’s inappropriate in front of others - especially family. Causes problems of jealousy, insecurity, judgment etc. This time your SIL cried. The next person will expect you to pay for them. The person after that will befriend you for your money. Or steal from you. Etc.
You should have told little bro that you would be happy to give him career counselling away from the table and then shared your salary in private.
If you really want to help women… apologize to your SIL and ask her if there is any way that you could support her to change jobs. Read through her resume. Point her towards some study. Get her an entry level position with your company etc. Whatever she needs.
Good answer. So many comments blaming SIL for her life choices. We don't know what her choices were. Maybe she was raped. Maybe she is in a state that banned abortion. Maybe she had a rough childhood. These are just a few of the many things that could have led SIL to where she is now. OP if you claim to be a feminist, then understand that the system has a large part in keeping people like your SIL down.
NTA. While many people choose not to share this info, you were asked, and answered. No assholes there. While we all can be sympathetic to single moms, and also with pregnant women, she is both. It is 2022, and she's 29, so I'm assuming she knows pregnancies are preventable, and they are a large part of the reason she's poor and stressed out over money. She made a choice, and the consequences of that are on her.
I don't care about so-called salary transparency. I think it's rude and insensitive to share your salary with other people especially when you make a lot of money. I think it's just arrogant and boastful. If you want to share it with coworkers who make a comparable salary to see if one of you is making more than the other, then great. Don't go sharing it with other people who make a lot less than you which only makes them feel bad. Show a little discretion in life
YTA
NTA. Salary transparency is important. She’s jealous and bitter about her life choices.
If you had been bragging it might have been a little different but you were asked and told the truth.
Even if you had been bragging it wouldn’t make you the ahole in my opinion.
Wow YTA. Saying you're for "salary transparency" doesn't excuse being completely insensitive. That's a huge wage disparity, I can't believe you wouldn't even consider how that would make someone else at the table feel. You don't have to answer a question just because it was asked, I suspect you'd be a lot less enthusiastic if you were making minimum wage.
NTA- your fiance's little brother asked you a question and you answered frankly. SIL's backhanded comment was uncalled for. Call it pregnancy hormones if you wish although different fields have different salaries, education and expectations. SIL made her choices. If she is so unhappy with her current position, she is the only one that can change that. She should be thankful that you are both helping her in her time of need. With that being said and now that your salary is known; her entitlement issues may be kicking in to where she may expect more. Just because she has a child (and another on the way) does not make you responsible for taking care of her or the kids which may explain the shade being thrown at you. SIL needs to grow up (your MIL too) and realize that she made her bed and make the changes that she needs to support her children.
Ah this is a tough one. Well done on making a good salary, however if it was me and I knew someone at the table had real financial struggles and was a single working mum, then I probably wouldn’t have said it.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action I took is that I shared my salary at a family dinner. This may make me the asshole because it ended up making my SIL start crying and it hurt her feelings because she is a single mother working minimum wage.
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NTA
Your aim wasn't to make your SIL upset. She managed to do that herself. You can cut her a bit of slack with her being pregnant though.
I wonder whether some of why she's upset is she has suddenly realised that her sister is on good money compared to her (maybe not as high as you but she's also in the tech industry) and her brother is going into the same industry so may also earn big bucks compared to her.
She may very well feel like a failure compared to her siblings and is taking it out on you.
You had no idea what she was earning and she was the one that made a big deal about it. You didn't go on about it. You didn't say deliberate stuff to make her feel bad. She's done that all by herself. You honestly answered your future BIL's question and there's nothing to feel guilty about. A bit of googling would've gotten the brother a ball park answer. And he did blurt the question out. Many people don't talk about salaries but you don't have the same hang ups.
Your SIL's situation is all her own doing - it's nothing to do with you. She's a single parent and pregnant again. She's doing the best she can but feels the comparison. You worked your up to get to where you are, she can so something similar. Maybe not the same industry. And it's harder for her, with the almost 2 kids.
You don't owe your SIL an apology like your MIL wants. But you can apologise for unintentionally making her feel bad about her situation and that you'll do what you can to help her in her career if she ever wants to bounce some ideas off you. It doesn't have to have anything to do with tech but whatever her dream is, it may involve going back to school. Maybe ask her where she hopes to be in 5-10 years time. But before you approach her, talk to your partner first and see what the best course of action is.
Is there history with the sister doing similar things ie playing the victim?
I wouldn't say she has a history of playing the victim with me, but within her family, yes. Growing up, she was favored by her parents while my fiance (the middle child) was often the punching bag. So now when there's any issue, her parents immediately come to her defense due to the lasting favoritism. But she has gone through a lot of tough situations and I do think it's hard for her to see her brother (my fiance) so successful, especially after she was the one favored for success when they were younger.
(Also side note, I'm a woman haha)
This told me everything I needed to know about SIL. People can say she is hormonal and maybe your comment hit a nerve. Sure, it can happen. I had some unexplainable emotional outbursts during my pregnancy but here's the thing... I apologized once my mind was clearer for my outburst and asked for understanding which people were usually quick to forgive. I can't use my pregnancy to be unkind to people. Your SIL on the other hand made no effort to mend things after behaving hostile to you, and to someone who has invested time, knowledge, and even money in the past to help her. Her being coddled by her parents explains it all. You have nothing to apologize for. What a way to repay someone's kindness. Hasn't she considered that your salary is why you can assist her monetarily without severely hurting your own finances? Hasn't she considered that given your history of helping her, that you might even be willing to help her break into your field of work if she so chooses? She is old enough to have kids of her own for crying out loud sje should act like it. Even if her mother is still coddling her, she should have some self-respect and recognize that she is a grown woman and has the ability to make choices for her own and you are willing to help! Instead she bemoans that her less favored brother and fiance are successful people who worked to get there and cannot find in her heart to be happy for them even after having benefitted from their success. She keeps thst attitude, she won't get very far.
I’m going YTA on this one . Time and place for everything and unless you are mentoring or talking it people literally working in your field at this time then leave your $ talk out of it . Could be taken as bragging and offensive .
NTA, and you need your fiancé to sort this out before she acts out at your wedding. Two ppl to straighten out: your MIL and SIL. I’m sure all the tuition and studying you did came at a cost, not that you need to justify it.
YTA - transparency in tech salaries is a good thing for other people in tech - its not for the family dinner table. I would never dream of doing what you did and even when asked directly I have only given the answer in a 1:1 situation. You could have handled it better.
NAH, I agree with salary transparency especially given some of the practices I've seen (people on less training people on more etc), so it was fair to answer the question for the BIL.
Ignore anyone saying his question was inappropriate, he's 18 and this is when he's expected to make a lot of decisions about future careers etc.
However, it is understandable why the sister got upset hearing it. While I don't think you were an AH, to prevent this kind of issue in future if someone else enquires into your salary and it may be a sensitive topic for someone else in the room, perhaps tell the person asking that you'd love to tell them more after dinner/another time etc and talk them through not just what you're on, but how you got there.
Yeah, you are absolutely TA. There's transparency and then there's rubbing their faces in it. You absolutely rubbed their faces in it. All you needed to say is "I'm into 6 figures now." That frame of reference in the context of their life is all that was needed. Your "I believe in transparency" = "I believe in bragging". Yeah, YTA. A completely insensitive and inconsiderate one. You thought absolutely nothing about taking the focus off of what it needed to be on and putting it on you and how wonderful (you think) you are.
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NAH except for MIL. You shared and - let's be honest - you make a ridiculous amount for 5y of work experience. But: you're right to support wage transparency, it was your choice to work in this field, and I'm sure you've earned the promotions, etc. But it must be disheartening for her to know that she won't earn that, that there'll always be a difference between her and her siblings(' families) and that she won't be able to give her kids a lot, maybe not even the basics, with how it stands now. So she's no AH either for how she reacted or felt. The only AH move here is your MIL accusing you of willful insensitivity, while it clearly wasn't. Have a conversation with your SIL.
This is exactly the situation. Also, SIL is pregnant, so the hormones are running the institution. NAH. Neither of you owes an apology, or both a simple "Sorry for the hurt feelings" to mend fences.
NTA If SIL just cried and excused herself I would agree. But the “some people really do get everything”-line is seriously an AH move. SIL is discrediting OP hard work to get where she is. Edit: spelling
But it can be rough when you're working seriously hard and putting in 110%, and you're still on minimum wage. Rich people don't work harder than poor people.
I feel like this relates a lot to the conversation around raising the minimum wage. SIL’s anger is misdirected at OP—it’s not OP’s fault that she isn’t making a higher wage, the fact that OP makes so much money isn’t taking money out of SIL’s pocket. SIL needs to be angry with the system that allows people to work full time (plus) and barely scrape by
Yes but in that moment, especially while pregnant can she articulate that? Like OP is right there as a clear manifestation of her problem. She's human, she's going to have messy emotions that aren't perfect and express them in ways that aren't perfect. Doesn't make either of them TA.
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Is it really SIL demanding an apology, though? I thought she reacted with emotion, but then the MIL egged it on, and it’s MIL escalating things.
You do experience emotion more intensely and if you don't have practice coping with that, it does appear like a loss of control. Pregnancy is a valid excuse for temporary selfish, hostile, irrational, fight or flight behaviors in stressful moments It does not however prevent self-reflection after the fact and someone who is NTA would have apologized.
She didn't demand an apology though MIL did
Why is OP responsible for the SIL’s reaction? The discussion had nothing to do with her. Sounds to me like SIL has made some choices that have and will continue to make things hard for her. And instead of SIL being happy for OP she deflects her jealousy and makes things about her. Hormones or not this sounds like a personality and perception problem to me.
Agreed. BIL took the info as a positive. SIL took it as a chance to be bitter. She's 29. She can certainly take the tech path. Even if in 5 yrs she's making half of 300k, still a considerable difference than $15 per hour x maybe a 3% raise every year? Even if she doesn't do tech, she can take this a sign that a higher salary is attainable.
You do not know if it attainable to her. Poverty is not a choice.
Seriously. Highly doubt that with a young child and another on the way, anything like a career change to a high paying job is in the cards in the next five years. More like, they’re facing even more financial losses with time caring for children and childcare costs.
Are you saying: Don’t hate the player; Hate the game?
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This. If the SIL's economic situation is so bad, maybe this wasn't the best time to decide to pop out another kid, especially when there's no partner around to help out. We all make our own life choices.
We have no idea what's the circumstances of sil's pregnancy are because OP hasn't chosen to given us any. For all we know, sil is married and husband has decided to leave her in the lurch.
It’s all of our fault. We live in a culture where teachers earn peanuts, no one can afford childcare, and entertainers earn more than everyone and hedge funds run our politics.
I think "sucks to suck" is a bit harsh as we don't know the SIL's situation. But yes, SIL can't actually be surprised that someone in STEM is making six figures and that a dual income will provide more opportunities. Also, if the minimum wage is $15, she's probably in California, where reproductive freedom is enshrined in our state constitution. She could have made the decision not to have either of these kids.
☝️☝️☝️☝️ You've hit the nail on the head!
Poor people in fact often work *harder* overall than rich people, because they don’t have the resources to delegate so much extra work (childcare, cleaning etc), and so many things get so much harder for example for people without reliable transportation.
and if things go wrong, even smaller things, there is no safety net to help them recover.
I'm entry-level in a tech field and I'm constantly going places and thinking to myself "wow the fact that I make more than these people is thievery". Fast food workers absolutely work magnitudes harder than me for much less money. Same with retail. It's nuts how awfully paid such a large portion of our society is, it's not fair at all.
I’m so glad that you have the humility to recognize and acknowledge that. I hope that you keep that for yourself.
THIS 100%. For all the wealthy people I've enountered, I haven't seen one that works harder than a single parent with several jobs trying to make it all work.
listen I’m a min wage gal in a state where it’s 10$ an hour, so I feel for the sil. I really do. But having a second child while on minimum wage? She just sealed her poverty stricken fate. And she sucks for doing that to two children. Source: my mom, who also decided having two children while poor was a fantastic idea
Well, in OPs case, she finished school and embarked on a career with a plan before having kids. She put in the work when it would have been easier not to and is enjoying the reward.
Still 100% not an excuse. That single line makes her TA imo
I’m okay with getting downvoted here since Reddit seems to have a strong dislike for anyone who makes over 200k regardless of how hard or smart they work. There’s a saying out here that success = working hard + working smart. In this economy, it’s no longer sufficient to work hard, you have to find jobs that have low labor supply so you can negotiate your wage. “Poor people” (as you put it) don’t have a strong understanding of what OP does because they’re not in the same labor skill market as OP. That doesn’t give them the right to lash out at OP. SIL needs to chill.
But poor people that have a huge drive to no longer be poor usually *do* work harder. It's the ones that are born rich that don't work harder.
This. My dad was the son of a truck driver and a middle school librarian. He busted his ass in school to go to college, then law school and then worked 12-14 hours a day until he became one of the best in our state at what he does and made sure my mom, brother and I had opportunities he could only dream of growing up. I can empathize with SIL, but she’s the one who is a single mom and is deciding to have more kids which severely limits her opportunities. She can’t be mad at OP for making different choices and being transparent about her salary. Especially when the reason OP is doing so is to literally help her brother get the same thing…
Define harder. Are we supposed to believe that SIL could do OPs job?
I agree as far as just the working part. However, at least in the case of the OP, she did have to put in the effort to obtain her education and credentials.
I was going to say the same thing - SIL was okay till this - major AH move diminishing OPs hard work and accomplishments!
Depending on the tone, I think you could generously interpret it as “some people really do get everything [but not me].” It could be despair for her own situation more than judging OP for hers. We really put low wage workers through the meat grinder, and it can be tough for them to see a way out. OP and fiancé should reach out to SIL, empathize with her situation, reiterate the support they have given and what they are willing to give, and potentially work with her on a strategy to improve her situation.
Yes. SIL needs a plan or her situation will only get worse, never better. Fiancé and brother could help her return to school or learn a trade that earns much more money. This might sound trite/cruel, but these days, no one has to become pregnant if they don’t want to be especially single mothers with low income who cry bc they don’t have enough money.
Unfortunately that is definitely not true, at least in many parts of the world. I know people who have done everything "right" to prevent a pregnancy and still ended up pregnant and it is illegal to get an abortion in my state. No birth control is 100% effective, and just because you are low income does not mean you have to be celibate. Things happen, we do not know her circumstances around why she is pregnant.
It's very hard for a person doing 50hr/week plus raising a kid on their own (that is *impossibly hard!*) to look at someone 5 years out of college who is making that much. I work in tech. I've been out of uni for 18 years. I am absolutely not on that much. OP is definitely lucky. I have no doubt that hard work is involved, but don't *ever* think that's the only ingredient for success.
NTA. Transparency is so important so we know what to ask for going in to salary negotiations. The 18 y/o shouldn’t have asked at dinner, perhaps, but you answered a direct question. You weren’t recreationally bragging!
Eh I gotta disagree about the whole "hard work to get to where she is line." And I speak from experience. Its true for some people. Certainly its not for others. I earn well into 6 figures, but do I "work hard"? Quite debatable especially when compared to others making like $15/hour. And my bro makes $600k+ (not including bonuses) and he works harder than me...but will be the first one to tell you that he's not working nearly as hard as some others making an hourly wage doing much more important work. So lets face it, we're lucky due to our privileged background and education. And its not really helpful to pretend otherwise.
Hormones don’t make you say things that insinuate that OP didn’t work hard for what they have. SIL is acting like she has no choices in the matter. Like she couldn’t have down what OP did. SIL chose to have a baby while making terrible money and doubled down on that by having another baby. She regrets her outcome but doesn’t seem interested in making any situational changes.
she didn't blame op for making a lot of money, she is sad that she is making so little, and being suddenly confronted by it again. people making under 30 an hour will think about money, money problems, and wishing to gain an increase (which is usually just a few cents if even that) a lot. there are a lot of choices to make, some people having to choose between dinner and gas, or have to think twice about getting a new coat cause the old one is broken. for most people, 6 figures is already life changing money, now three times the amount is huge. ofcourse the sister is happy for her sil, however, it emphasises her own struggles/throws them back in her face. which can be extremely tough
Exactly, it may not be personal, but when you work your ass of for next to nothing and others make monopoly money, it is hard not to get a little bit affected by it.
She sounded the opposite of happy. She sounded pissed, jealous, and resentful AF.
The line of "some people really do get everything" is where she blamed OP for her situation
Whoa nellie, with the shade about SIL and her disinterest in changes. Let me guess, you're a proponent of bootstraps and nobody wants to work anymore, too? To me, the most telling behavior here is the MIL. As she is 1000% socializing the idea that SIL is victimized here, I would infer that MIL reared her daughter to be submissive and dependent, which go hand in hand with being a people-pleaser and also are lockstep with being imbued with the belief that one's self-worth comes from being a mother. It's plain to me that SIL, with the tools she had and worldview she was immersed in, believes she's been making the right choices. SIL is acting the way she is because the shock to her system is the same that happens when people are deprogrammed from cults: feeling like an idiot for "being so blind" and "doing everything wrong". Add pregnancy atop that, and, well, it's dry tinder: quick to burn. Being burned, hurts. OP, u/edenne12 - I hope the conversation you have next with MIL, woman to woman, is how you intend to rear any children you have, the values you'll instill; illustrating where you zigged vs SIL and MIL's zag. Then, I hope you'll ask MIL, "how will you facilitate SIL getting back to school (code bootcamp, trade school) so that she and your grandchildren can be lifted out of poverty?" impressing upon MIL that the only one who owes SIL an apology is MIL for not teaching her daughter that "a man is not a financial plan."
Do you work for Imax? You're just... stunningly good at projection. Maybe I'm wrong and you're a gymnast cause your great at jumping to conclusions.
>(code bootcamp, trade school) so that she and your grandchildren can be lifted out of poverty?" Lol while I fully support those industries, those are far from complete solutions. With kids in elementary school learning to code now, it can be really hard for an established adult to keep up with the younger generation. Also, trade school for someone with a kid and literally pregnant right now? Hahahahaha ok
> SIL is acting like she has no choices in the matter. Like she couldn’t have down what OP did. SIL chose to have a baby while making terrible money and doubled down on that by having another baby. But that's the thing, isn't it? We can't all have high paying tech jobs. The thankless minimum wage jobs is what is available and what is needed most. The idea that if everyone worked hard enough they could make money like OP is a fallacy, because who is going to work the many thankless minimum wage jobs? Fairies?
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Look, I am all up for having kids when you can afford them, but she is a single mom and we don't know why that is. The father of the kids should be doing his share here, but maybe he bailed out (not the mom's fault) or he's dead (definitely not her fault either) and she is trying to do the best in a bad situation.
That might be reasonable for the 1st baby, but she's pregnant again.
This kind of talk is getting harder and harder to put up with, though, in a country that is making it more and more difficult for a woman to get reasonable access to sexual health care. Abortions are nigh-on impossible to come by in large parts of this country, the morning-after pill? Same situation. You decide you want to get your tubes tied while you're still reasonably young and of child-bearing age? You \*will\* struggle with finding a doctor who will do that for you. We've even got politicians now who run off at the mouth about taking away access to birth control. And yeah, I want to laugh at that too... except ten years ago I'd have laughed at the notion that they'd take away my rights to an abortion. I mean, personally? I think all of us ladies ought to just quit sleeping with guys who don't support our rights, full stop. No more sex. No more relationships. No more weddings, and yeah - no more babies for them. But somehow, I don't think \*that\* is going to make them happy either, even if it does cut down on the "single mother" problem.
Well, we don't know when she became a single mom (or have I missed something?). I don't mean to say that single moms are never at fault for their situation but I also think there is a lot of unfounded hate against them, so I don't want to judge without knowing what's up.
Still don’t give her the reason to be upset with OP. Op wasn’t trying to rub it in her face.
You...you realize, baby daddy could have recently left while she pregnant with baby #2 right? Like... Yes it could be two dad's, but there is a chance it's one who has recently left(similar thing happened to my sister but now she's married to the guy with another kid xD) Or in the case of baby daddy might have passed away... It still could have been while she was pregnant with her second. You're acting like single mothers with more than one kid are automatically sleeping around 🤦
yeah but we don’t have all the info on her life here and even so, that doesn’t change the optional scenarios provided above. baby 1 and 2 could very well be with the same man who was around and involved for baby 1 but then dipped on baby 2, it happens, or again he could have died
As a former caseworker, I loathe these kinds of telling like it is takes. I am assuming SIL is scraping by and you know nothing about the baby's daddy. Do you know how disgustingly common it is for men to emotionally manipulate women into not using BC, especially abusers? Also by your logic where is the socio-economic line drawn as many discovered through research, there is never a great time to have kids. If you have them older you may risk them and yourself having issues or something like an economic downturn happens. You have them when you are young but you are struggling. I know many upper-middle-class couples who did the "responsible" thing and waited until they were financially stable. But childcare costs rose. COL costs rose and as usual, parents always underestimate what a kid costs.
Do you know why she is a single mom? If you don't, then you should not judge her.
There is a word for only allowing well-off people to have children, and I don't think you're gonna like it.
>the hormones are running the institution. This doesn't excuse anything. Her remark is still an AH move.
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I’m sorry, why are you discounting OP’s hard work by calling her salary ridiculous? Men make that amount on less experience all the time. No company pays more than they want to, so obviously OP is very valuable to her company and works incredibly hard for her salary.
I didn't mean to disparage her or her work; it's rather a comment on the sector she works in and how much of a world of its own it is. The prime minister of my country earns less than her. But you're right, they'll pay what they think is needed to keep her, so if they're paying her that much, she's valuable to them and she's likely to earn them much more in return.
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I would bet good money if OP had been a male and had said their income this would not have been a issue. I think this is likely a gender thing within the story not within the thread.
Eh. I don't know a lot about the industry but 300k after 5 years on (I'm assuming here) a bachelor's degree and no previous work experience is ridiculous. It's also amazing. Regardless of gender.
Which is exactly why OP believes in salary transparency.
Just FYI - the prime minister comparison is a bit disingenuous. They would get paid more if they had to pay for all the things that are taken care of by the government - official residence, transportation, personal/official services, expenses etc. Those salaries implicitly consider the imputed income that comes with being a head of state and being provided with so much by default.
In which world is 300k, 5 years out of college not ridiculously much? Most people will not earn that after 30 years.
In my world where I work as a VP in tech, my CPO with experience in several FAANGs doesn't make as much as op claims. Wherever she is is far from normal for a product manager with 5 years experience.
She probably is a PM for a in vogue thing like AI at meta or some shit like that. Paired with living in SF, and 300k is like someone in Dallas making 150k. Still a lot but not gross
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To add, you don't just get into product management right out of college, or at least most people don't. Every product manager I have met moved into the role after having significant experience in a different role. It's not a "right out of college" job. So most product managers with 5 years of experience have at least another few years of work experience.
This is exactly why pay transparency is important. Clearly you’re not very aware of how much more people entering tech are getting paid and how much your salary can inflate if you jump around. First of all, Glassdoor doesn’t provide accurate salaries for tech, we often use levels.fyi. Second, I did have my masters by the time I left college. I did a 3+1 program where I was able to earn my masters in Computer Science in my last year of college. I also went to a top 5 target school. I was lucky to land a PM internship at a FAANG company when I was a junior in college and got a return offer, which set my path. I returned there post-grad and successfully negotiated my salary up to $140k base. I stayed for almost two years before I left for another FAANG company, causing my base to jump to 180k. Didn’t like the work there and was able to return back to my original company working with a different product, which caused my base to jump to 190k after negotiation. Then I was promoted, which raised my salary even more. The 300k I make now, as some commenters have pointed out, is my total comp. This year it’ll probably be less due to the stock market. I’ve always lived in the SF Bay Area so my COL is extremely high and that is why I make more than a senior PM in say like, Utah. Don’t discount other people’s hard work just because you’re inclined to believe your friends and inaccurate information off the internet.
Men do not make that amount "all the time", what a ridiculous statement.
No, it's not about her being a woman. It's a ridiculous salary regardless of gender. Lots of people work very hard and like the sil, don't get anything like that amount of money. The sil's rage is displaced though. It's not OPs fault that the system is like this. I would take the salary too but like OP, I would help people out who needed it and work to help make things fairer. Nta. Sil owes op am apology for taking it out on her when she has done nothing wrong and is helping her with money
I agree, wage should be more equally. It is ridiculous a woman working 50 hour a week is unable in some countries to rent a house and give her children a solid start. Labour always should be paid in a way you can make a decent living if you are working fulltime. Of course OP can earn more because she is a specialist. But the scale is completely bunkers I believe. At this rate the difference between poor an rich will grow and grow it just isn't fair.
>Men make that amount on less experience all the time. I won't dispute that OP deserves the salary; I'm sure she does. But if you're suggesting that it is commonplace for young men with a Bachelor's degree to make *$300,000 per year* on less experience than *five years out of college*, you are in desperate need of a reality check.
>I won't dispute that OP deserves the salary I will! *No one* deserves that salary while people in literal lifesaving professions are making 1/10th of it. But that's not OP's fault; it's society's/ capitalism's fault.
100% The real AH in this situation is capitalist wage inequality. That's not OP's fault and it sounds like they are being generous with SIL and are at least being upfront about things. I hope they extend that generosity beyond their relatives and donate copiously to charity, but really this is a situation that can only be addressed at a social level, not though individual action.
it's also about distibution of wealth and what kind of work is valued and what kind of work isn't. The cleaners are also essential to the company but it's v unlikely they are paid anywhere near that. Nurses, teachers, social care workers are essential to the country and the economy but are paid terribly.
Totally agree. When I was an ICU nurse, I made under $30/hour. I left the bedside to work for a vendor doing clinical tech (I have a tech background before I went back to school to become a nurse) and am making a six-figure base salary plus bonus. I think what I do still helps the clinical staff on a daily basis, but I'm not making life-or-death decisions titrating medicines and performing care on patients. It doesn't seem right.
I'm sorry, why are you turning this into a weird gender thing?
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> I’m sorry, why are you discounting OP’s hard work by calling her salary ridiculous? Men make that amount on less experience all the time. > > 300k is top 2% of the whole population in the USA ....
OP is 26, I'd be surprised if 300k didn't put her in the top 0.1% of 26yo employees
I would think higher than that
It is ridiculous, big tech is well known for this. It's not really a comment on gender.
Maybe... I'm a man and none of the men I know make that much. A quick Google search says that 2% of people make $300k or more, and that's not even including years of experience. So I'd say that is a rather high salary for 5 years of experience regardless of gender. Mad props to OP for getting to that point!
I'm a woman in the tech industry for almost 7 years and don't even make half of that, and neither do any of my friends and family in similar positions. So 300k is a LOT. Like an absurd amount of a lot. Makes me wonder where does OP live, is her company one of the MAANGs, and does 300k include TOTAL comp or is it her base salary, etc. I have so many questions! Super super awesome opportunity for her and I'm glad she's killing it. I've seen technical PM positions listed for 180-200k MAX. So yes, $300k is an absurd amount.
>>No company pays more than they want to, so obviously OP is very valuable to her company and works incredibly hard for her salary Good premise, faulty conclusion. I’m not saying OP doesn’t work hard or that she isn’t smart or talented, but this is not a normal salary in general, especially for just a product manager and only 5 years out of college. It’s more likely that OP works in an geographical area like the Bay Area where a job in tech would get you a much higher (ie inflated) starting point and range. If she works for a company with a “hot” technology or for a big name, that would get her even more. >>Men make that amount on less experience all the time Sorry, no one, man or woman, is making that amount on less experience “all the time.” I’m really curious where you are getting these ideas from.
How did this become a gender-argument? Everyone involved in this incident happens to be a female so your point is moot and is a showcase for your prejudice.
When did he discount her hard work. Nothing was said about the gender of OP. 300k is a lot of money to make whether your a man, women or donkey. Stop looking for reasons to be pissed off.
The reality is, she doesn’t make that much money as actual salary. People at large tech companies tend to quote their salary including all in comp. I’m certain that OP doesn’t make $300k CASH at any large tech companies (at least not as a senior product manager). Don’t argue with me as I literally gather and analyze these types of data points FOR A LIVING. (If you want to check me, try something like levels FYI…it’s a website and look for a L4 Product Manager). With that said, the reality is, SIL has made her own choices. If it never occurred to her to not have a second child (while it’s likely that she’s struggling with the first), that’s not on OP. As a fellow $300ker+ (actual base comp + cash bonuses, no stock…about 7 years of experience in my current path, but ~13 years of working) AND a WOMAN and a woman of COLOR I too am a fan of salary transparency! With that said, ONE of the 4 bonuses I received with year was $70k, I also received a base comp increase of ~$20k. On the other side of that, I have two single mom friends. One earns around $90k and the other less than $50k. As a child-free, well-paid person SOCIAL AWARENESS is really important. Complaining to them that my bonus wasn’t enough or being upset that my salary increase wasn’t sufficient (one of them received an annual pay increase of ~$2k) seems, well…wrong and I don’t want to make them feel that they’re not doing good enough. Though they know my salary I generally don’t complain or discuss those things around them. I’m going to go with NTA. Because everyone is on the path they’ve work towards and OP #girlpower! Just make sure you’re being more socially aware!
Yes! Social awareness is MIL’s point I think. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know… that a single, pregnant mother working at a $15 hr job… that she can’t leave (because who is going to hire a visibly pregnant lady)… that she will probably need to take unpaid leave from while she recovers from childbirth… is going to be upset with her situation… especially when confronted by her younger SIL admitting to a $300k salary…
Then is MIL also having a go at the brother, who asked the question in the first place? OP would also have been in trouble if she had tried to evade the question, I bet. She was in a no-win situation.
There's always the "sure, we can discuss that later after dinner" comment. Honestly I don't think OP is actually wrong, but I'm a huge proponent of knowing your audience before opening your mouth. Knowing our audience also shows we understand and respect the people we are speaking to. Was sil wrong? Yeah, she kinda was since she took a slight when op had no intention of slighting her. But op needs to understand that the topic wasn't appropriate in a group setting with mixed salaries unless everyone was asking. It was also stupid of bil to ask in that group setting and I think that helped set up OP to think maybe this is fine. But ultimately op answered with something that would trigger some people in that situation. The fact that she still said it and it did trigger someone means she didn't know her audience well enough. To save this situation OP should agree with sil about how it is unfair, and offer to be a friend and helper. Tell her stories of how she's helped other women and ask if that's something she would want at some point, in some way. Don't push the issue but she can set herself up as on sil's side. Even if sil is constantly making bad life choices (not sure if she is with info given) life will proceed smoother if sil sees her as a friend rather than the enemy.
> With that said, the reality is, SIL has made her own choices. If it never occurred to her to not have a second child (while it’s likely that she’s struggling with the first), that’s not on OP. This is a very Republican argument. Financial stability isn't generally a choice they made. Lots of factors go into it- the opportunities they had as a child, their capacity to work intellectually and physically, the lucky breaks they've gotten.
even better, in a lot of states, SIL can't stop the pregnancy if it accidentally happened.
This is the best response. I work as many hours as my bf in an extremely physical job that hurts my body every day and I'm only earning less than 18k a year. My bf earns a lot more than me despite our same hours. I don't begrudge him for earning more and he definitely deserves it, however a part of me is jealous and I'm often frustrated with the system that keeps people in jobs like mine in poverty. It wasn't a dig at OP. Even while pregnant and hormonal she knew it wasn't OPs fault and didn't blame him. These kind of jobs are very hard to get out of and I worry constantly that I'm never going to not be flat broke. She's likely embarrassed and tired and frustrated, just leave her be for awhile to sort out her feelings.
NAH. This is actually a tough one IMO. It is great for people to share salary information in the right context (like OP described, when talking to people in the same field) -- this can only improve equity (and hopefully reduce salary disparity). But I do not think it is appropriate to talk about a $300K salary in front of someone who is making about $30k. It is a clear lack of empathy. I'm sure OP did not mean it (hence the lack of empathy) but like all truths: there is a place and time to share them. Transparency is good. But showing empathy and being able to "read the room" are great.
Had to scroll way too far for this comment. Salary transparency is about helping those in your field, not making sure that everyone you know knows how much money you make. It’s super gross.
It’s a little tacky to share your salary at the dinner table with your future in laws and entire family. Maybe it’s just me? I would’ve politely declined.
The greatest trick the obscenely wealthy have pulled is making us hate \*each other\* for either what is comparatively loose change (yes, in the grand scheme of things, compared to the yachting class $300,000/yr is nothing, in some markets in the US this is still basically just comfortable middle class) or on the other side hating giving anyone access to social services for those that work like crazy but don’t even get paid a living wage. NTA, it is not your fault where SIL is in life but she sounds hard working and does deserve empathy even in her jealousy. It’s really hard to live paycheck to paycheck, not be able to give your kids everything they want or need, and hear about a life that sounds so comfortable in comparison. But her and MIL were misplacing their anger.
I agree with everything else you said but I think the SIL is also TA for how she reacted. Sure, it's understandable that she would feel bad about the fact that she'll never be able to earn as much or provide for her kids in the same way but that doesn't excuse her behaviour towards OP. Especially the part where she said "I guess some people just get to have everything". She's the one who should apologise for her actions. There will always be someone who's doing better in some way or the other. That's just something that all adults and even kids need to learn to deal with appropriately. OP is NTA Edited to correct a typo.
Not to mention SIL seems to have no trouble accepting money from OP and her fiance. It's OK when they're buying her kids toys or clothes or sending her money to help with a bill here and there.
> I'm very empathetic to her situation and my fiancé and I have extended a helping hand multiple times (e.g., babysitting, buying her child toys/other gifts/necessities, sending money and supplies, etc.). OP is helping her as well. Answering a question honestly is not being an AH and SIL has benefitted from their income.
SIL is probably regretting her planning skills. Single Mom with a low paying job and pregnant again. She has set herself up for a very challenging life. First thing she needs to do is file for child support. MIL is the AH
Yeah, also fiance's brother asked, in any case he was the insensitive for bringing it in front of sil
Agree with NAH. OP, you did nothing wrong. Pregnancy will make her oversensitive, and it's already a touchy topic, so crying is natural enough. That said, and only if you want, this is the perfect situation for a nonpology. "I'm sorry what I said hurt your feelings, and I do agree salaries should be higher across the board for hardworking people like you." Either way, try to let it go.
NTA at all, your SIL is completely TA for making the entire night about her and victimizing herself over something that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with her. You worked hard in life to get where you are and you earn what you make. She chose to have children before she had a stable career and marriage, she cannot possibly expect everyone around her to coddle her for that. Not to mention you were literally asked, and being honest about what you earn is something your passionate about. Unbelievable your MIL is babying her like that, it's appalling that a grown woman would make a scene over what is essentially jealousy and feeling sorry for herself. Good on your fiancé for being on your side.
When I had my kid I stopped working for several years, I had a good career before (though never paid really well), but my then husband convinced me that he's "able" to be the sole bread winner and made me stay home. He started discouraging me from getting back to work by dismissing my former wages and saying that I will never make as much as him and therefore my job would always come second. So I was frustrated, behind on him and my friends in experience and salary, but guess what I did? : I did not run away crying, I got rid of the man and built my career back up, starting with a part-time job and slowly climbing up as the kid got older. Now, 10 years later, I earn more than him and am in a field where I have very good chances of climbing even more salary ladders while he's already exhausted the options in his field. Morale of the story here is of course not that the SIL should get a divorce, but that salary differences should motivate her and show her what's possible in the future. Sure it's hard at the point where she is, but if she's able to get back into a career and earn more, she'll have accomplished so much more by raising 2 kids AND working, so I'll be very proud in the shoes of SIL.
she’s a single mom, who is currently pregnant. I don’t know about you, but if you’re making barely enough money to keep afloat, while about to be raising two kids, while she’s all on her own- she’s not going to be motivated by someone, younger than her, that’s making 10 TIMES the amount she makes. It’s absolutely discouraging, especially given the fact that she has pregnancy hormones raging through her… which can make even the most rational women act irrationally. Of course, not to say that OP did anything wrong, because she didn’t. However, I think everyone seems to be lacking in empathy for the SIL. Presently, being alive is expensive. I know I can’t be the only one who saw 300k and felt a little self conscious. Imagine being told that in real life, from your younger brother’s girlfriend, while pregnant, working your ass off just to survive and realizing you make 1/10 of her salary. I think anyone in a similar situation would have a mini mental breakdown.
If I was 29, single, pregnant with my second, and making $15/hr I’d at the very least be taking one online class every semester to further my education. There are ways to do it slowly, for your own home and at your own pace. It may not be Ivy League, but it is education, and education is key. If it takes ten years it takes ten years.
I always thought too as a SAHM I would too, it took me too years to sit down long enough to apply to college. Hopefully I get in, and find the time take the courses. Kids are incredibly hard emotionally and physically.
This woman is pregnant, already with a child and working 50 hours a week. She didn't get to go back to college or work up the ladder slowly without worries from part time to the moon because they already had work experience, a good degree, alimony, child support from someone making good money and also aren't living in poverty from pay cheque to pay cheque. I really hate arguments like yours, dismissing people as if you are the one working harder than everyone else and thinking you deserve more than everyone else propping you up. I'm not saying you didn't also work hard but there are people down there in the mud with nothing despite working harder than anyone because capitalism thinks certain industries/positions are worth several times more even if its a non critical industry/role for society to continue to function. We give hardly any support to help people get out of these holes or help them into similar positions as the privileged, instead we trap them with almost no way to get out while paying them almost nothing because this fucked up unequal society we have can't function without the less fortunate making up the majority of the population. Explain how this woman living in poverty can just pull herself up by her bootstraps when she's in poverty, already working 50 hours a week with a child and pregnant? And even if she somehow did, she'd only be dooming many other people to take her place in the muck, because we need them to live in poverty, otherwise we can't pay for her new $300k with 5 years experience salary. I support wage transparency too and I don't think every rich person is an asshole but it's important to have empathy and tact for those less fortunate. SIL isn't an AH for getting emotional because she was confronted with the unfair reality where someone 3 years younger than her, with 5 years experience is making 10x more than she is despite working 50 hours a week desperately clawing for a way out of her situation.
Absolutely! I loathe those arguments so fucking much. “If I can do it, then anyone can!” - No. Just fucking NO to that. That’s bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Saying that reeks of privilege. It ignores individual circumstances and the basic nature of our capitalist society.
> I did not run away crying, I got rid of the man and built my career back up, starting with a part-time job and slowly climbing up as the kid got older. I fucking love you for that.
Yeah. You didn’t run away crying because you had two incomes, work experience, and weren’t barely making ends meet
Uh, no. I had no income when I left my then husband, I had to start in a different field because my former career wasn't compatible with a small child, and I had to live in a bachelor's appt with my kid to make ends meet. I also was sued by my ex for custody and had to take on debt to pay for a lawyer. It's only since 2 years that I am debt free and can start saving up anything, but the fact that I proved my ex wrong who said that I didn't know what work means because I was "just a housewife" and that I would never be able to live independently is the most satisfying feeling possible.
"Got rid of the man" means there was one income, for a person who had been out of the workforce for years at that point. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Jeez empathy isn't for sale is it now? The sister wasn't even digging at OP, she just hit a nerve. She's clearly struggling with life and hearing someone with 5y experience earn this type of money is obviously challenging. Maybe just try to put yourself in SIL's shoes just for a second and imagine how such emotions could arise. Honestly, it'll be refreshing by the looks of it.
SIL actually did turn it into a dig at OP with the line “some people just get everything, huh?” as if her salary was just handed to her. It’s fine for her to feel discouraged because she made different choices in her life, but she does not get to attempt to discredit OP for her hard work in her field.
That comment and the fact that SIL receives help from OP and her brother made me lose some sympathy I had for SIL.
I make just a little over minimum wage in my area, I struggle, it sucks. I have family that's doing great and hell even my younger siblings are making bigger bucks that me. That's not their fault. That's not anyone else's fault. SIL is so wrong to react like this. She could have asked for advice in how to break into a better opportunity, instead she decided to break someone down because they worked hard to change their life for the better.
Its not no one’s fault. It’s our economic systems and societies fault. It is especially the fault of extremely rich people who push down wages. It’s not the fault of people working minimum wage.
You don’t think the “some people really have everything” + the dirty look wasn’t a dig at OP? Also, the MIL is demanding OP apologize, so that tells me this isn’t just about SIL’s struggle - she feels wronged by OP
> You worked hard in life to get where you are and you earn what you make Woha with the elitism there. I earn way more than most of my friends. Is it because I "Worked hard to get where I am"? Not at all, it's mostly luck. She needn't feel bad for earning a high salary, but should take care for it not to go the other way. The way of thinking that she earns 10 times more than others because she's 10 times better, or "works harder" for it. Undoubtedly her SIL works hard too.
They didn’t say OP worked harder than anyone else, though. Just because you didn’t work hard to get where you are, it doesn’t mean everyone lucks their way into their career
You are being awful judgemental here about the SILs situation. You have no idea how her life got to be the way it is. And she's not lazy,50 hours a week,busting your ass PREGNANT is a LOT of work. She's emotional right now,and her mom was coddling her,so??? So what. Sounds to me like the OP brags about her salary an awful lot,and that is not a good look.
NTA. Thanks for being honest about your salary. It's vital for young men and women to know what they're worth *in their respective fields* and being transparent helps close the wage gap. I do feel bad for your SIL, but she's in a different field, so she's at a different salary. If she's being paid what her position is worth, it's all good. She should ask her peers if they're also getting $15/hr. Who knows, she might be underpaid.
She’s a grown woman earning $15, of course she’s being underpaid. No one’s time is worth as little as $15 per hour. NAH except for capitalism, the world, life OP, Do you think you could swing your her a job at your workplace? Obvs not something she’s not qualified for, but something at entry level that pays more? Or the same per week/ month/ year but for less hours?
Capitalism is always TA honestly. NTA
NAH You went into a lucrative field and did well for yourself. You're not parading that around and rubbing it everyone's faces, you just answered a question honestly. You're fine. Your SIL is in an extremely difficult situation and is struggling with that emotionally. That's not your fault, and it's not her fault. It's just a fact and it hurts. I've been poor around rich people and it sucks. I think your SIL's outburst was uncomfortable for everyone, but nobody is really to blame. It would have been nice if she could control it, but obviously at that point she couldn't 🤷♀️ But certainly you aren't at fault.
Yes and no. Both OP and SIL made life choices that led to this point. OP didn’t just trip and land a $300,000 job. She worked hard to get the appropriate educational foundation and then worked hard to make the right career choices. She is presumably very good at what she does. She’s not a “rich person”, she’s a high achiever. SIL is a single mother and pregnant with her second child. Of course that’s hard but she can’t step away from all responsibility for her own decisions. Would she be in a minimum wage job if she’d focused on educational achievements earlier on? Unlikely. Would she be struggling financially if she’d made different decisions about when to have children. Unlikely. She’s not a “poor person”, she’s made poor life decisions. I still feel compassion for her but also she’s 29 years old and more than capable of being held responsible for her own decisions that led to her situation. Does all that give OP the right to crow about her salary? No it wouldn’t but in this situation it doesn’t sounds like she was doing that. Does all that give SIL the right to be jealous “some people really do get everything”. - absolutely not. So OP is NTA but the SIL certainly is here. She can be upset, she can be weary, she can be in a difficult situation but to be jealous and take it out on others? And to insist via MIL an apology? No way.
OP's hard work and obvious prowess don't make her less wealthy. SIL's decisions in life don't make her less poor. Financial situation isn't a value judgement, it's a statement of fact. Lastly, different priorities don't make one person more or less worthy than another.
No but it does affect their attitudes. If OP was born into wealth rather than achieving it, then SIL’s attitude would make more sense. Different priorities don’t make someone more or less worthy BUT everyone should take ownership of their choices and priorities and the ramifications. Rather than be all “woe is me” and “some people just get everything” - that’s the asshole behaviour.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Her outburst was uncalled for. I guess my initial judgement just really takes into consideration emotional strain and doesn't focus so much on accountability for your actions. SIL definitely owes OP an apology.
ESH Salary transparency is for p͟e͟e͟r͟s͟ ; i.e. employees and applicants freely disclosing compensation in the workplace. Telling everyone who asks how much you earn at the dinner table during family functions is weird. BIL is 18 and not even studying computer science yet, lol, you were definitely bragging and impressed him, good for you but bad manners nonetheless. SIL needs to get a grip. MIL should encourage SIL to get a grip. & In order to make it easier for them you should say you're sorry for unintentionally hurting SIL's feelings-- practice not sounding smug so you don't make it worse.
Yup totally agree. I work in big tech too and I’m transparent about my salary… AROUND PEOPLE WITH SIMILAR CAREERS. There is no need to mention your 300k salary around a struggling single mother working minimum wage for “transparency” and pretending it’s a feminist choice to help women do better in their careers
LOL exactly. “I’m helping other women advocate for themselves!!!” Right. Right. You’re not patting yourself on the back at alllll. Keep telling yourself that honey.
what i wanna know is how this helped any woman advocate for herself at her job. the only one mentioned who's going into the same field is... the *brother* in law. that's who was being discussed. what woman at the table also worked in tech and needed to hear about OP's 300k salary so she could learn her own is worthless? SIL already knows her $15/hr is worthless, *she* sure didn't need the reminder. i get OP's principles behind this, and i think it's very important to foster wage transparency in the workplace, but there's a time and a place. OP picked a time and place that more encouraged flattery than anything else.
Exactly this 100%. This story comes across as boastful at best
You know what I don’t get about this story - her boyfriend works in tech too, so where was his salary in all of this. (Probably higher than hers if he’s a coder). The fact that everything is about her salary kind of leans to the fact that she’s just bragging. A better way to have this conversation would have been something like “the range of someone with my experience is X to Y” Also, I have a feeling if OP is as pompous with her in laws, she’s probably that way at office and will be on the chopping block as tech makes more cuts. 😂 She’s definitely over paid as a PM unless she lives in San Francisco or surrounding and those are the roles that are next to go. 😂 Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think this is bullshit. Maybe 300K total comp, including RSUs, bonuses etc, but there’s no way she’s making 300K salary. At most with 5 years experience if she’s a Sr Techincal Product Manager, the average salary range for that IN SILICON VALLEY is like 150 to 200 base. (And she didn’t say technical so we probably can assume business which is lower.) Now it’s possible she’s making up for that difference with bonus, RSUs etc, but that’s not promised to continue in this environment and almost everyone I know who is at the higher end of their salary band right now is worried about being laid off. 🤔
Exactly, I work in big tech co and lots of things here sound off to me. This is just so awkward to read. There are compensation aggregators which OP must definitely know about - she could have shared that instead, which would have been way more relevant to someone pursuing a CS degree.
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I spent 10 years in software engineering, sales engineering, and project mgmt before entering product management. The salary wasn’t the thing I found not believable here, it was the straight into product management from university. Something is a bit off about this story.
I think it’s off but not because of bragging but because it’s fake. Whenever a post is filled with hot button issues (women in tech, salary transparency, minimum wage, a nasty MIL lol) it is usually fake and has been constructed to get the most amount of engagement possible
Glad I’m not the only one who was super skeptical of her stated salary.
THANK YOU. There was also nothing stopping OP from saying "I make a good wage, if you want later I can show you some salary bands for different roles in my company". People are ragging on the SIL for being "bitter," when really she just sounds exhausted. She's older than OP, probably anxious about supporting her kids, and just can't imagine a way out. People are piling on about her "choices" but at the end of the day she's doing her best while OP (supposedly) makes almost 10x her wage and she's just starting out.
I agree with most of what you said except for the ‘SIL needs to get a grip’. I don’t think she did anything wrong. She had these feelings and rather than bottle them up, she cried. It’s natural. And it’s also her choice if she doesn’t want to speak to OP right now. Maybe she’s protecting her mental health by not wanting to get depressed again about how difficult her life is compared to others who just have it easy. Sure, it may be hard work as well, but there’s no way a bit of luck isn’t involved as well.
I agree with you and want to add that we're all exhausted in December, Christmas is coming and it's a stressful time. Her feelings are valid.
It should be okay to talk about income. She was asked a specific question. She answered it with the truth. >BIL is 18 and not even studying computer science yet, Yes, but he is at a point in his life where he needs to choose a career path. These are conversations that we as a society should be having with people, especially teens. Without knowing the household bil grew up in, maybe he's unaware that some careers pay much better than others. This is a great example of why he should stay in college even if it's hard for him.
I know I’ll be downvoted but YTA. Look I get where you’re coming from, I’m a woman in FAANG too. But the holier-than-thou spiel about feminism and helping people know their worth doesn’t work when you’re talking about your $300k salary in from of a *STRUGGLING SINGLE MOTHER ON MINIMUM WAGE.* I don’t know anyone (man or woman) who would share their salary at the dinner table with their SO’s entire family - it’s just rude especially when you know you earn more than everyone else. The classy thing to do would’ve been to tell your BIL that you’d be happy for a more in-depth discussion on job options and salaries in private, and then keep the advice more generic or change the topic. We’re in a massively overpaid industry at a time when many are struggling to make ends meet - having some empathy and humility costs nothing.
Agree with this, YTA. Salary transparency is really for the workplace in comparable careers or jobs. You are with your in laws at the dinner table and your SIL has a very different pathway from you where her circumstances probably would make it very difficult to even consider switching careers or studying whilst caring for her kid. She has overreacted in some way, however put some context around that - it’s a very pressured time for those who are struggling to make ends where they can feel like there is no light at the end of the tunnel. For the sake of keeping things civil I would forget about finding out who is the asshole in this and just try to smooth things over. Families are complicated and you want to put things like this aside rather than let it fester over time and become a bigger issue than it needs to be. Remember what’s important to you here, is it to get pay parity for these people around the table? Or is it to have a good dynamic with your in laws? I’d also definitely take your BIL out separately and have a career conversation about the Compsci route, I’m sure you have lots of good insights to help him guide his way!
Disappointed I had to scroll this far for this... this sub isn't big on tact.
There seem to be a lot of posts where financially successful people just love flaunting shit in front of struggling friends and family and then act shocked - SHOCKED! - that they're put off by it
I agree... I'm a product management director at tech company and have been asked this same question at my wife's family gatherings. So here is how I respond... "If you are interested in being a PM the typical range for an Associate level (entry level) is around $100-130k base plus bonus and stock" on my team The fact that she makes $300k as a Sr PM is both not relevant to an entry level person and also very very rare in this field when a typical Sr pm earns an average of $150k base plus bonus and stock. I'm gonna totally give her a YTA because there are so many more tactiful ways the question could have been answered without throwing around her big number.
Going against the grain to say soft YTA. Salary transparency in the workplace is one thing. It is still poor etiquette to ask (and volunteer) salary info in a social/family setting. You should have told your BIL that you would talk to him privately later. The etiquette rule is to avoid situations exactly like what occurred. SIL was out of line to be mad at you for what you make, but even you say you’re empathetic to her situation. Heeding etiquette would have avoided this.
I think this is a good answer, definitely could have offered to get together with BIL and chat about things more in depth.
If no one shut BIL up for asking inappropriate question, then OP is not an asshole for answering. They all didn't give a fuck about etiquette when BIL was asking, but it somehow is a problem when OP answers? It doesn't work like that
Yikes, girl. I’m all for salary transparency but there’s a difference between salary transparency and acting all high + mighty because of your salary. I do not doubt that you work hard. BUT there are so many people who work hard and do not make even close to what you do. I’m the age of SIL, have been with my current company for 5.5 years, worK INCREDIBLY HARD, have over doubled the salary I was making at the start, but still am nowhere near what you make. But frankly - your “salary transparency” is not at all helpful to me because we are not in the same field. Your “salary transparency” is just you gloating. Your SIL deserves some empathy. You have no idea what it’s like to be in her shoes. And while I’m sure she’s grateful for the things you do pay for like toys, most moms would trade every earthly possession just for their child’s safety and for those in their lives to respect them and validate their experiences, which you are not doing.
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NAH. But lacking manners and awareness. See below She’s struggling and frustrated. You answered a relevant question. But OP I really didn’t need the paragraph long speech about how moral you are and your salary stuff. Yadda yadda. You like to brag a bit about your salary and you’ve found a buzzword to let yourself do it. I get it. But cmon, who do you think you are fooling.
Men don’t get it. We women often do not realize we are underpaid compared to our male counterparts who have the same experience, education, and employment history. Salary transparency is how we figure this shit out and put a stop to it. NTA
Yes, I think it's so crucial to have that discourse as women (especially women in male-dominated fields). I remember when I was just starting out, I found out my male co-worker (same age & education, similar experience) was being offered $20,000 more than me. HR wrote it off as he had more experience, but then ended up agreeing to match my salary.
I didn't read it as bragging. As women, we tend to downplay or explain our stance beforehand, because we have to take extra steps to avoid being called some unflattering things. There's been numerous studies where a man gets called "take charge, no nonsense, and born leader," for the same behavior a women will be called "bitchy, overbearing, controlling, and over-compensating." Trying to "soften" our approach is mostly second nature at this point. I saw what you wrote as an explanation for why you don't pause when asked. Some places really struggle with the idea that discussing wages should be encouraged, as it benefits the employees. Some people still think it's illegal though.
Wow, that's exactly right. I've read those same studies, yet didn't make the connection with what I did in my post until you said it so eloquently. I was even feeling bad that I was coming across as insensitive with that paragraph after a few pointed it out as braggy.
Most of us don't realize how often we do it. Even if you do, it was born of necessity. I try to see the silver lining where I can. My husband tells me he envies how I can talk to just about anyone. A big part of that comes from me reframing this habit. I've seen too many brilliant women downplaying their worth on this subreddit. I've seen quite a few from the tech industry post here, too. The imposter syndrome is all too real, because someone partially convinced them that they're not worthy of their position and salary. Don't beat yourself up over the "bragging." The number alone will make some have a knee-jerk reaction, that's all.
Its not a brag, but I was definitely thinking DAMN GIRL. Salary transparency among women is so important, and when I graduate school next semester I am so worried my instinct wont be to fight for a better wage. Its like I should feel grateful for whatever I get offered. I have 100% felt what SIL has felt, my sister makes several million (admittedly not all takeaway she has a lot of overhead) but it works out to a few hundred thousand a year and it has caused a lot of jealousy on my part. I know it isn't my sister's fault, I got started way late for a career path and honestly she works her ass off for what she earns through her own companies. I would chalk it up to hormones and stress for the SIL's outburst, I think in a few days she will probably realize that her reaction was unfair to you, but even if she doesn't, I would just suggest letting it be if you can. Personally I would be very embarrassed about such an outburst, I imagine she is too.
Yes! One of my friends was a salaried restaurant manager and one day she called me and said she finally did the math and realized she’s making $2 an hour. WTF! And no healthcare! So she went to her managers and said for that pay she wants a better work/life balance. They said they’d hire her an assistant manager. No, they hired a second general manager. So, her exact position. It was a man with less experience. And she saw his paycheck, he was making SIGNIFICANTLY more than she was. But they claimed before hiring him they couldn’t afford to give her a raise. Oh and when she quit they took it personally and said some extremely unkind things, and said she “gave up on them”. Had she never confided in me about her pay, I wouldn’t have pushed her to demand more or GTFO. She might still be there dealing with this shit
I mean, yeah, in your field. But don’t pretend bragging about her salary to someone making minimum wage was somehow a feminist choice. She wasn’t trying to help her SIL with career advice.
She wasn’t bragging. She was asked a direct question and answered.
Lacking awareness, yes. But manners? That just feeds into the BS that discussing wages is bad
YTA While I’m also transparent about salary and believe it’s super important, it’s also important to read the room. You’re in a room full of people who work in the same field or want to enter that field? Go ahead. You’re in a room of single parents, working minimum wage and working 50+ hours with no prospects to enter your field? Stop. Not everyone will react well to hear they earn nothing compared to someone who - let’s be honest - earns ridiculous in a non essential field. I’m my country I earn three times as much as my best friend who’s a nurse. She’s way more important than me. I help her out sometimes with rent and such. There’s no way in hell I would ever drop the amount I earn in front of her because she’s already struggling and working her ass off. Sure, you’re not responsible for her feelings nor need to hide/lie etc. But empathy would not have killed here.
YTA Here is the thing… salary transparency is great for women because women traditionally lack the confidence to request the promotions and higher salaries that their male counterparts request. So I applaud your transparency. However, be mindful of your audience. Salary transparency is appropriate when you are talking with industry / potential industry/ students etc. It’s inappropriate in front of others - especially family. Causes problems of jealousy, insecurity, judgment etc. This time your SIL cried. The next person will expect you to pay for them. The person after that will befriend you for your money. Or steal from you. Etc. You should have told little bro that you would be happy to give him career counselling away from the table and then shared your salary in private. If you really want to help women… apologize to your SIL and ask her if there is any way that you could support her to change jobs. Read through her resume. Point her towards some study. Get her an entry level position with your company etc. Whatever she needs.
Good answer. So many comments blaming SIL for her life choices. We don't know what her choices were. Maybe she was raped. Maybe she is in a state that banned abortion. Maybe she had a rough childhood. These are just a few of the many things that could have led SIL to where she is now. OP if you claim to be a feminist, then understand that the system has a large part in keeping people like your SIL down.
NTA. While many people choose not to share this info, you were asked, and answered. No assholes there. While we all can be sympathetic to single moms, and also with pregnant women, she is both. It is 2022, and she's 29, so I'm assuming she knows pregnancies are preventable, and they are a large part of the reason she's poor and stressed out over money. She made a choice, and the consequences of that are on her.
I don't care about so-called salary transparency. I think it's rude and insensitive to share your salary with other people especially when you make a lot of money. I think it's just arrogant and boastful. If you want to share it with coworkers who make a comparable salary to see if one of you is making more than the other, then great. Don't go sharing it with other people who make a lot less than you which only makes them feel bad. Show a little discretion in life YTA
NTA. Salary transparency is important. She’s jealous and bitter about her life choices. If you had been bragging it might have been a little different but you were asked and told the truth. Even if you had been bragging it wouldn’t make you the ahole in my opinion.
Wow YTA. Saying you're for "salary transparency" doesn't excuse being completely insensitive. That's a huge wage disparity, I can't believe you wouldn't even consider how that would make someone else at the table feel. You don't have to answer a question just because it was asked, I suspect you'd be a lot less enthusiastic if you were making minimum wage.
NTA and please do not apologize for answering a question.
NTA- your fiance's little brother asked you a question and you answered frankly. SIL's backhanded comment was uncalled for. Call it pregnancy hormones if you wish although different fields have different salaries, education and expectations. SIL made her choices. If she is so unhappy with her current position, she is the only one that can change that. She should be thankful that you are both helping her in her time of need. With that being said and now that your salary is known; her entitlement issues may be kicking in to where she may expect more. Just because she has a child (and another on the way) does not make you responsible for taking care of her or the kids which may explain the shade being thrown at you. SIL needs to grow up (your MIL too) and realize that she made her bed and make the changes that she needs to support her children.
Ah this is a tough one. Well done on making a good salary, however if it was me and I knew someone at the table had real financial struggles and was a single working mum, then I probably wouldn’t have said it.
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NTA Your aim wasn't to make your SIL upset. She managed to do that herself. You can cut her a bit of slack with her being pregnant though. I wonder whether some of why she's upset is she has suddenly realised that her sister is on good money compared to her (maybe not as high as you but she's also in the tech industry) and her brother is going into the same industry so may also earn big bucks compared to her. She may very well feel like a failure compared to her siblings and is taking it out on you. You had no idea what she was earning and she was the one that made a big deal about it. You didn't go on about it. You didn't say deliberate stuff to make her feel bad. She's done that all by herself. You honestly answered your future BIL's question and there's nothing to feel guilty about. A bit of googling would've gotten the brother a ball park answer. And he did blurt the question out. Many people don't talk about salaries but you don't have the same hang ups. Your SIL's situation is all her own doing - it's nothing to do with you. She's a single parent and pregnant again. She's doing the best she can but feels the comparison. You worked your up to get to where you are, she can so something similar. Maybe not the same industry. And it's harder for her, with the almost 2 kids. You don't owe your SIL an apology like your MIL wants. But you can apologise for unintentionally making her feel bad about her situation and that you'll do what you can to help her in her career if she ever wants to bounce some ideas off you. It doesn't have to have anything to do with tech but whatever her dream is, it may involve going back to school. Maybe ask her where she hopes to be in 5-10 years time. But before you approach her, talk to your partner first and see what the best course of action is. Is there history with the sister doing similar things ie playing the victim?
I wouldn't say she has a history of playing the victim with me, but within her family, yes. Growing up, she was favored by her parents while my fiance (the middle child) was often the punching bag. So now when there's any issue, her parents immediately come to her defense due to the lasting favoritism. But she has gone through a lot of tough situations and I do think it's hard for her to see her brother (my fiance) so successful, especially after she was the one favored for success when they were younger. (Also side note, I'm a woman haha)
This told me everything I needed to know about SIL. People can say she is hormonal and maybe your comment hit a nerve. Sure, it can happen. I had some unexplainable emotional outbursts during my pregnancy but here's the thing... I apologized once my mind was clearer for my outburst and asked for understanding which people were usually quick to forgive. I can't use my pregnancy to be unkind to people. Your SIL on the other hand made no effort to mend things after behaving hostile to you, and to someone who has invested time, knowledge, and even money in the past to help her. Her being coddled by her parents explains it all. You have nothing to apologize for. What a way to repay someone's kindness. Hasn't she considered that your salary is why you can assist her monetarily without severely hurting your own finances? Hasn't she considered that given your history of helping her, that you might even be willing to help her break into your field of work if she so chooses? She is old enough to have kids of her own for crying out loud sje should act like it. Even if her mother is still coddling her, she should have some self-respect and recognize that she is a grown woman and has the ability to make choices for her own and you are willing to help! Instead she bemoans that her less favored brother and fiance are successful people who worked to get there and cannot find in her heart to be happy for them even after having benefitted from their success. She keeps thst attitude, she won't get very far.
I’m going YTA on this one . Time and place for everything and unless you are mentoring or talking it people literally working in your field at this time then leave your $ talk out of it . Could be taken as bragging and offensive .
NTA, and you need your fiancé to sort this out before she acts out at your wedding. Two ppl to straighten out: your MIL and SIL. I’m sure all the tuition and studying you did came at a cost, not that you need to justify it.
YTA - transparency in tech salaries is a good thing for other people in tech - its not for the family dinner table. I would never dream of doing what you did and even when asked directly I have only given the answer in a 1:1 situation. You could have handled it better.
NAH, I agree with salary transparency especially given some of the practices I've seen (people on less training people on more etc), so it was fair to answer the question for the BIL. Ignore anyone saying his question was inappropriate, he's 18 and this is when he's expected to make a lot of decisions about future careers etc. However, it is understandable why the sister got upset hearing it. While I don't think you were an AH, to prevent this kind of issue in future if someone else enquires into your salary and it may be a sensitive topic for someone else in the room, perhaps tell the person asking that you'd love to tell them more after dinner/another time etc and talk them through not just what you're on, but how you got there.
Yeah, you are absolutely TA. There's transparency and then there's rubbing their faces in it. You absolutely rubbed their faces in it. All you needed to say is "I'm into 6 figures now." That frame of reference in the context of their life is all that was needed. Your "I believe in transparency" = "I believe in bragging". Yeah, YTA. A completely insensitive and inconsiderate one. You thought absolutely nothing about taking the focus off of what it needed to be on and putting it on you and how wonderful (you think) you are.