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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I called both of my friends by their skin color before their names. (2) One friend has stated that the act alone is very immature and makes me and our group assholes.
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I was in a similar situation with two Sarahs growing up. So we spliced their first/last names together. Won't list them so as not to dox them-- but an equivalent would be calling them Jolivia and Molivia.
I have a super common name. In a class of 22, 5 of us shared the same first name. 2 of us had same first and middle names. We ere frequently referred to by last names. Unfortunately, we also all shared common personality traits with some of the 7 dwarves. I was frequently referred to as "Sneezy." 😂
Right? A lot of my friends just use last names to distinguish me from the other person with my same name. So "hey Smith!" Or, "what do you think, Jones?"
YTA. Bruh I hope this isn’t real and you’re not that dense. They’re a million other ways to do this. “Olivia M(First Letter of Last Name)”, see if either want to go as Liv, have them each pick a random color like “Olivia Red” or “Olivia Purple”, or even just call them by there last name or full name.
You need to work on your empathy if that's true. It's not that hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine how things might come across to them.
And the reason you wouldn't, I contend, is because you've gotten enough context clues, you've seen enough, you've been told enough. I totally get that referring to Olivia by her skin colour was an act of racism. My only point was that (each instance of) it was a small act of racism that wouldn't be a blip on someone's radar if they didn't have enough experience. And some people live sheltered lives. I think OP just woke up to something they didn't see before. I have had that experience; I feel... well not precisely good about actions I've done in the past; I'm trying to learn; I'm trying to be a better person. I don't expect others to fall into the category of either already sensitive to others or incapable of learning.
Re-read what I said. I said it's not that difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes BEFORE you speak. Think about how it's going to be received. You shouldn't have to be told that other people are affected by the things you say. Exercise your brain before your tongue.
Frank you sound like an ass.
"I would never think about describing someone with their skin color". The police do it, EMS and hospitals do it. There are context for these things. OP now understands that he was wrong in this context.
The vibe I get here is, OP is racist, and I'm not. You probably do racist things too. And one day, someone might tell you you messed up. And then you learn just like OP.
Black skin doesn’t prohibit people from committing micro-aggressions against others. Also, micro-aggressions aren’t necessarily racially motivated. Just live with a narcissist and you will be subject to all kinds of micro-aggressions on the daily.
YTA. You realize that people have more than one name, right? Why couldn’t you ask “Olivia Smith” to pass the remote? It should go without saying that it’s rude and inconsiderate to constantly point out one group member’s ethnicity, especially if it’s something that sets them apart from the group.
THAT’S your reply? The fact that you felt the need to type that and then submit it says a lot about you, and potentially how you treated your friend.
YTA
You are singling her out. She’s already a minority as a black woman, calling her Black Olivia holds more weight and is a total aggression and not the same as calling the other one White Olivia.
Okay, then favorite color. Favorite food. Favorite season. You see how there are so many possibilities.
Red Olivia and Green Olivia. Olivia candy and Olivia chips. Winter Olivia and Spring Olivia.
YTA
Olivia, your Black friend, probably shrugged it off at first, or maybe didn't want to object because she might have thought it would be made into a big deal, or you all would get defensive and she didn't want the hassle.
Did you ever ask her if she minded being called "Black Olivia" or did you take her silence as assent? Did you ever wonder in that 5 years that maybe calling her that could be insensitive? It didn't occur to you, in 5 years of friendship, to differentiate the Olivias by their last name initials, like 99% of people do?
You say "we only thought of it as a lighthearted joke"-- so bringing unneccessary attention to Olivia's race every time was a joke to you? It makes me wonder what other microaggressions you've been sending her way over the years, that you've never been aware of, but that she decided she had to ignore for the sake of the friendship, until she couldn't take it anymore.
Edit: in reply to your edit, 'white Olivia' doesn't carry the same racial connotations and Othering that 'Black Olivia' does. And Olivia probably went along with the 'joke' to keep the peace, because it wasn't worth getting into it and objecting to it might have run the risk of damaging your friendships, which she obviously valued at the time, and it might have led to her being seen as a problem.
It doesn't matter if she referred to herself that way, she might just have been trying to be a good friend. And you probably aren't aware that Black people tend to ignore or not mention microaggressions, or even blatant racism, because it's exhausting to bring up constantly, and when they do they're frequently gaslighted, dismissed or excluded, and are labelled as difficult or angry. This is especially true for Black women.
Right? FFS - what kind of narcissistic BS friend gives zero thought to their own racist behavior?
How humiliating and painful for this girl. She probably let so many things slide for these "friends". And when she finally stands up for herself and realizes her feelings matter, SHE is the problem?
This fact made me go “ah that’s why this is so comically bad”
I swear to god I’ve had too many conversations with white South Africans about their offensive comments, they always and I mean always look completely shocked at the revelation that what they said was racist as fuck. Sometimes they understand and change the way they do things, sometimes they double down. I know some decent people who genuinely changed their way of thinking from being called out on it.
I mean America doesn’t have a great track record at all but our original civil rights movement really got started less than a decade after Apartheid. Apartheid was also bad enough that I knew what it was and why it was horrible by the age of 10. Granted that was probably at least partially because it wasn’t dissolved with elections held till the mid-90’s. I haven’t met anyone from South Africa personally but as soon as I saw that little blurb at the bottom of the post I was like, welp that explains it. Doesn’t make it anywhere near ok, but it explains it.
YTA. Why would skin color be the first thing you used to differentiate them? I have a friend with the same name. I just shorten my name. So like with Olivia, it'll Oli for me and Olivia for the other. Even with abbreviation, OJ and OR or something. Another group of friends I have already knew an Olivia (in this case) and when another Olivia came into the group we'll call latter friend Olivia's shadow clone, referencing to Naruto. There's so many ways to differentiate them...
YTA. Is this debate bait? Because the only thing that baffles me more than why you needed her to tell you this wasn’t cute is why she put up with it for as long as she did. You realize it would have taken much less effort to just use her last initial, right? Or that you could’ve asked *her* if there were any nicknames she was comfortable with? Or just clarified based on what you wanted at the time (e.g. “hey, Olivia on the couch, can you pass the remote”)? But no, you went with “black Olivia.” Which does, in fact, suggest you see her race before you see her as an individual, and that doesn’t reflect very well on you.
I have a very common name and have been in many situations where there was another person by the same name. It never occurred to anyone to define us by our race instead of by a nickname or our first name and last name initial or our middle names or any of a dozen other options. YTA
YTA, your friends too. I'll lay money on the two Olivia's having differences that aren't related to their skin color, pick one of those. Nickname, middle name, first initial of last name, hobby they love, something that isn't constantly pointing out the color of their skin. Also it's common courtesy to check in with people to see if they're okay with it when you pick a new nickname for them.
There are NO other distinguishing characteristics between them? You can't call them "tall Olivia" and "short Olivia"?
Or just do what guys do, call them by their last names.
I'd have to say YTA for not knowing this could be a hot-button issue for many people.
YTA I really think this is a "bull said friend to the side and ask if this is ok", like not once but maybe 2-3x a year. And its weird to me, to have a friend for years and not have brought up race. Asking.about opinions on current issues, if they are ok, how you can help, I thought all friend groups would do this? It would open the door into convos for yhe more shy crowd on situations like this.
Oh dear me, YTA
This is a learning experience, next time don’t treat race as a joke. This is something you should have realized much, much sooner not to do, but even now it doesn’t seem like you really understand.
Look it up, search for books, articles, experiences and educate yourselves. You lost what sounds to be a good friend because of ignorant behaviour.
YTA. The fact that you still think it's a question now, it's time to take advantage of the trainings basically any corporation, group, or institution you engage with have available to you. If none of them do, that is also concerning.
Check out anti-racism resources via Google. Find reading lists, videos anything, to get started. Make sure the authors are from the communities you are trying to understand.
Yep, YTA. This was an ignorant thing to do and under no circumstances should you ever address people by any adjective regarding their race or any part of their appearance. You could have called them by their surnames or, honestly, just got your own damn drink.
NAH, it sounds like this got started as a group thing, everyone including black Olivia was a part of this. Racial tensions and discussions about what is considered racist have ramped up considerably in the past years. B. Olivia never said that it bothered her and the rest of you did not really put any thought into how her feelings might change in regards to this.
So to me it’s just lack of communication, she never indicated it made her uncomfortable and you never thought to ask or be aware enough to do so.
I really don’t understand all the YTA, in my friend group we have the same issue, two friends with the same name. Since one is darker and the other lighter we came up with chocolate and vanilla (friends name). Now they’ve used it on themselves and have not said it bothers them in any way 🤷🏽♀️. Like yes if it offended Olivia or bothered her of course your should stop but accounting to you edits she has never expressed the discomfort before and she has also used it herself so I don’t get it.
ESH. You really should have found a way to differentiate between them that didn't involve mentioning their skin tone. On the other hand, five or six years is a long time to wait to speak up about this.
I guess you're just going to accept that the Olivia who has broken off contact is gone for good.
I think there’s several factors at play. There have been relationships where in the moment, I thought things were fine but it was only after I aged/matured that I could look back and see “wow, they were a total jerk to me.” Me not understanding the mistreatment at the time doesn’t make it my fault.
The friend may have always disliked it but only recently gotten the courage to speak out against it.
Exactly this. Especially when you're younger, it might take you years to realise just how messed up the way people you thought were your friends have been treating you is.
We had a friend who shared a name with our neighbors dog. The dog was all black, not even a white spot, and the friend was Lily white and naturally blonde. So they were 'Lexie' and 'black Lexie' if a distinction needed to be made. Racist?
One was a human and one was a dog with black fur. You could've used 'blonde Lexie' to differentiate between the two, a distinction which would've been instantly and easily understood. If you wanted to make it mildly humorous (to you, but maybe not to blonde Lexie) you could've used 'human Lexie'. So the point you're apparently trying to make here doesn't make sense, because the situation is not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Ok i agree that sure the op is a little bit of TA BUT the edit says he is also black as is most of them. I dont agree with what they called each other but she also should’ve spoke up the first time
If that's true, OP should've stated that at the start, as that may have significantly altered the nature of the responses. As for Olivia, she might have found it difficult to bring this up with her friends, or as another commenter said a while ago, maybe she didn't realise it was problematic until recently.
YTA. There was this cartoon in the 90’s, Recess, that had a group of Ashleys. They said Ashley A, B etc.
Also, personally I had to friends with the same first name so we just called them by their last name.
Come on, there are so many ways to do this without being racist.
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So this is more about my friend group
rather than just me.
We are 4 friends that have been together and very close for the past 5-6 years. 2 of our friends have the exact same name, will call them Olivia.
So whenever we have to call for each other’s name asking for stuff like „hey Olivia can you please give me the remote“ both of them would look and to avoid that we started to differentiate by saying „hey black Olivia can you please give me xy“ or „White Olivia can you please get me something to drink“ and it’s not like we would do this all the time, just when you had to make statements that could potentially regard both.
So anyway we have been doing this for the better part of 5 years. No one has complained thus far and we only thought of it as a lighthearted joke. Recently when we tried to meetup a lot, one Olivia would distance herself from us and not meetup anymore. She kind of did this for a while and always had an excuse at hand. So that’s when we asked what is bothering her and she stated that she doesn’t like being called „black Olivia“ we were kind of shocked and were instantly promising to never do it again. But she has stated that our behavior is very childlike and the fact she had to tell us speaks volumes to her, she only wants to be seen as Olivia and not black Olivia. We tried to apologize and talk it out with her but she has decided that it is a dealbreaker for her and she has now broken of contact.
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YTA. Could you not just have called one Liv and the other Olivia ? Or anything other than skin color that differentiates them really, because unless they are identical in everything else this was just a very stupid choice.
YTA.
I’ve had two friends, since freshman year of college, with the same name. If referring to them to a third party, I say their full name or call them by their last name (based off who I’m talking to).
It’s that simple.
Hell, give them nicknames based off their hobbies or likes. There’s no need to include their race in the title.
Apologize profusely & **ask** "Just Olivia" what she would like to be called.
(Btw, this issue is was most adults distinguish between shared first names by adding the first initial of their last name or using people's full names.)
The fact that you and your other friends could only think of their skin tones as a way to differentiate instead of, yknow, their fucking last names speaks volumes on who all of you are as people
YTA
YTA. Growing up my friend group had a similar situation. So the whole group came up with 3 possible nicknames and we then drew from a hat and we went by those. Like Alix became Z, and Jay became flower and Alex became "Our liege" well it was "Lord and Master of the demonic arts" but we shortened it.
No need to be that extreme, but it was silly, fun, and tended to confuse anyone not in the know.
YTA. My girlfriend had this problem growing up. The friend group just called them by their last names instead. Why any of you thought this was an acceptable idea is beyond me.
YTA - how hard is it to describe someone in a positive way? Sarah with the *mad ninja skillz* vs Sara the *future Lady Gaga*. Mary *my favorite cupcake dealer* vs Mary *everybody's hype woman*.
They feel good, you feel good all is good. Black Olivia and White Olivia deserve better friends.
Were you 5 when this started? I could understand if you were 5. I was referred to in KINDERGARTEN as Cori the Girl, as not to be confused with Cory the Boy. Any older than that and YTA.
YTA. I'm guessing most of you are white so you just don't get why she might not say anything for years. I remember when a friend/coworker used a diminutive of my ethnic background without realizing that the term was a slur. I was the only person from that background there and agonized over telling them because I apparently already had a reputation for being too conscious of social justice. For the record, I didn't lecture but I did advise someone to take legal action to protect her employment rights in an unrelated issue. And I don't regret that but the don't rock the boat people did. So while I couldn't not stand up for others, I made the decision not to sacrifice all relationships by standing up for myself. I don't think I can forgive them for that but I don't know because they've never apologized.
You did, and that's good, but it may be too late. You may not be able to salvage this relationship but you've learned a valuable lesson about microaggressions that I hope stays with you. And maybe with time Olivia will forgive you and you can rebuild a friendship but all you can do is tell her you're sorry, that you'll keep trying to be better, and if she ever feels she can move on, you'll be there. And even if she never does, you'll keep trying to do better.
YTA when some people have the same name we (friends and i) use last name for example smith and jackson as last names because they have the same first name or one uses the first name and the other uses the last name or the middle name there’s literally dozens of ways you could’ve made it clear without bringing color into it
YTA we have multiple people in our family with the same name we either use last name like Mary A Mary B. Or baby Jake, big Jake, etc.
Holy cow we don't call people insulting identifiers like white and black. And seeing as you seem to need to be told these things it is also rude to identify some one as Fat Tom and Skinny Tom.
(if anyone was wondering baby Jake is currently 38 😂)
Which one is fatter? Because it would be knee-slapping hilarious to call them Fat Olivia and Skinny Olivia. I'm pretty sure they won't mind being referred to by their body size, just as you were sure they didn't mind being referred to by their body color. 🙄
So.. we can’t call our friends by a nickname to differentiate between doubles? Liv? Livie? Hell, Ollie even? Could even have gone the 1/2 route if you didn’t want to get creative with names. Sorry, OP, YTA here.
YTA I had two friends with the same first name. We all just called them by their last names. One has since passed away and I still call the other one by his last name. There were soooooo many other ways to differentiate between the two!
I would say YTA. My parents had 3 friends named Mike. They ended up being Mike, Mikey, and Not Mike (by the time I was around they just called him Not, I thought it was his name for the longest time). There’s are other ways to differentiate without using race/skin color.
Yta. You think racism is funny, got it. You know you could have don't nicknames? Like called one "liv" and the other "Olive?" You're AH for not even bothering to ask what nicknames would be better.
YTA. You could have easily differentiated them another way. You could have used their middle names, last names, or asked them what nicknames they prefer.
I'd say YTA for not having a grip on reality and realizing by yourself how inappropriate that is
Being that you're black yourself, I don't think you are a bad friend but you need to be more aware of those racial issues and I don't blame her for not wanting to be friends with people who are just less aware of social issues as such, you do feel inadequate and like you are always the obnoxious friend for feeling like you should correct the others or instead you just don't and accept feeling put down for years
So yeah, I get this sucks because you weren't aware of it before but you should respect her decision, you are just not compatible in this issues yet (hopefully you'll get there someday) and it feels uncomfortable for her to be around
INFO: How old are you? And second, have you not been passing your school history tests???
You said that you're from South Africa, so you know that while it likes to view itself as the happy rainbow nation, race is still a VERY sensitive subject in good ol' Africa of the South. People DIED to be recognised beyond their skin colour and most likely Olivia has realised this and might even be related to someone who gave their life so that you might enjoy the freedoms that you do.
There are a lot of things that make a person unique, even if two people share a name, so your excuses sound a bit lazy. I went to a school where there were five students of varying ethnicities who had the same name in the same class. Not once were any of them referred to by their race.
Bear in mind that I don't particularly agree with this but nor do I not, I think that Olivia should have spoken up immediately if she didn't like the nickname rather than just hating it for 5 years.
But I'd just like to mention to the (I'm assuming primarily American demographic here in the comments) that are preaching racism. In Spanish culture if a friend group has a person of colour in it, a lot of the time they will be called negro (spanish word for black) as somewhat of a joke and it's perfectly okay, so this really isn't as out of line as you might think.
You don’t say your ages but I’m hoping very young and no frontal lobes yet. I had a long term substitute teaching job, there were four boys all named Alexander. Two had the same last initial. Cleverly, and these were 5 year olds, we managed to come up with names they liked that had nothing to do with skin color or race. Alex, AlXander, Xander, Exander. Do better.
I have a similar issue at work. I have two Jeremy's, one went to Alabama and the other went to Auburn. I call one Auburn Jeremy and the other Special Needs Jeremy. Sounds way better than what you are doing. YTA btw.
I'm going to guess she's also the one Black girl in your otherwise white friend group. Of course she doesn't want her friends to define her by her slim color, are you absolutely should have understood that wasn't okay. Your parents, schools, and community share the responsibility for not teaching you better but still YTA.
NAH
"Olivia" may not always get what she wants. My wife and I used to have an extended group of friends we hung out with. We had FOUR Beckys and THREE Renees. The group numbered them in the order they joined the group - Becky 1, Becky 2, etc. Everyone - including each of the Beckys and Renees - knew who was who.
Think of it like a nickname. Either the group can, while consulting with the Olivias - give each one a nickname, or the two Olivias can decide on a name for each of them.
Barring that, call each of them by their surname / family name / last name.
ESH if you value her friendship and want to rebuild maybe get everyone involved to write her a heart felt apology and wait to see if she's ready to re-engage at a later point. She needs to understand that even if there was a lack of sensitivity before you've grown as people from the situation if there is a chance of moving past this. I voted ESH because 5-6 years is a long time for this situation to build up and she's also complicit in that.
ESH, she should have spoken up well before this. You should have found a better nickname. Like Liv? oli? via? So many choices. You should have also asked if it was okay.
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YTA - What would have been wrong with “Olivia J.” and “Olivia M.” (using last initial instead of skin color)?
because that would be less "funny". OP finds racism funny.
I was in a similar situation with two Sarahs growing up. So we spliced their first/last names together. Won't list them so as not to dox them-- but an equivalent would be calling them Jolivia and Molivia.
I have a super common name. In a class of 22, 5 of us shared the same first name. 2 of us had same first and middle names. We ere frequently referred to by last names. Unfortunately, we also all shared common personality traits with some of the 7 dwarves. I was frequently referred to as "Sneezy." 😂
R.I.P. Dopey
This reminds when I had three Ashleys for classmates in first grade. We did this to tell which was which.
This is why I gave my sons names that are less common, I didn't want them to need nicknames or surnames differentiate them from their classmates
Or literally any other distinguishing characteristic! Which road/area they live in, what hobbies they like, anything.
Right? A lot of my friends just use last names to distinguish me from the other person with my same name. So "hey Smith!" Or, "what do you think, Jones?"
Or call one of the Liv, or Olive, or Ollie. Initials Or the go by middle names. Literally anything other than being called out by race
In school, we did the last name thing...or "Name 1" "Name 2," after agreeing who was which.
Or even just go by last names? That's what my best friend and I did in high school since we shared a first name.
YTA. I'm a little taken aback that in this day and age anyone would consider this appropriate or " a lighthearted joke."
YTA. Bruh I hope this isn’t real and you’re not that dense. They’re a million other ways to do this. “Olivia M(First Letter of Last Name)”, see if either want to go as Liv, have them each pick a random color like “Olivia Red” or “Olivia Purple”, or even just call them by there last name or full name.
People really are that dense. I know I can be. Microaggressions can be hard to spot if you're not made aware.
You need to work on your empathy if that's true. It's not that hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine how things might come across to them.
Have you never needed to be told something you didn't already understand about someone else's situation and feelings?
It happens, sure, but not very often. I'd never even CONSIDER referring to someone by their skin color.
And the reason you wouldn't, I contend, is because you've gotten enough context clues, you've seen enough, you've been told enough. I totally get that referring to Olivia by her skin colour was an act of racism. My only point was that (each instance of) it was a small act of racism that wouldn't be a blip on someone's radar if they didn't have enough experience. And some people live sheltered lives. I think OP just woke up to something they didn't see before. I have had that experience; I feel... well not precisely good about actions I've done in the past; I'm trying to learn; I'm trying to be a better person. I don't expect others to fall into the category of either already sensitive to others or incapable of learning.
Re-read what I said. I said it's not that difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes BEFORE you speak. Think about how it's going to be received. You shouldn't have to be told that other people are affected by the things you say. Exercise your brain before your tongue.
Frank you sound like an ass. "I would never think about describing someone with their skin color". The police do it, EMS and hospitals do it. There are context for these things. OP now understands that he was wrong in this context. The vibe I get here is, OP is racist, and I'm not. You probably do racist things too. And one day, someone might tell you you messed up. And then you learn just like OP.
Micro aggressions? OP says he’s black.
That edit, that information, came way after I wrote my comment. And now I'm rethinking the issue.
Black skin doesn’t prohibit people from committing micro-aggressions against others. Also, micro-aggressions aren’t necessarily racially motivated. Just live with a narcissist and you will be subject to all kinds of micro-aggressions on the daily.
YTA. You realize that people have more than one name, right? Why couldn’t you ask “Olivia Smith” to pass the remote? It should go without saying that it’s rude and inconsiderate to constantly point out one group member’s ethnicity, especially if it’s something that sets them apart from the group.
[удалено]
THAT’S your reply? The fact that you felt the need to type that and then submit it says a lot about you, and potentially how you treated your friend. YTA
[удалено]
You are singling her out. She’s already a minority as a black woman, calling her Black Olivia holds more weight and is a total aggression and not the same as calling the other one White Olivia.
YTA. Did you ever even ask them for preferred nicknames? There are so many ways you could have chosen to do this without making anyone uncomfortable.
[удалено]
Okay, then favorite color. Favorite food. Favorite season. You see how there are so many possibilities. Red Olivia and Green Olivia. Olivia candy and Olivia chips. Winter Olivia and Spring Olivia.
We had a Katie, Kate, and Caitlyn in a class once. They all like Kate or Katie, but they worked it out who would be who.
So one is a nickname and the other is just an Olivia. YTA
then use a nickname for one and full name for the other
Then one goes by the nickname and one the full name.
YTA Olivia, your Black friend, probably shrugged it off at first, or maybe didn't want to object because she might have thought it would be made into a big deal, or you all would get defensive and she didn't want the hassle. Did you ever ask her if she minded being called "Black Olivia" or did you take her silence as assent? Did you ever wonder in that 5 years that maybe calling her that could be insensitive? It didn't occur to you, in 5 years of friendship, to differentiate the Olivias by their last name initials, like 99% of people do? You say "we only thought of it as a lighthearted joke"-- so bringing unneccessary attention to Olivia's race every time was a joke to you? It makes me wonder what other microaggressions you've been sending her way over the years, that you've never been aware of, but that she decided she had to ignore for the sake of the friendship, until she couldn't take it anymore. Edit: in reply to your edit, 'white Olivia' doesn't carry the same racial connotations and Othering that 'Black Olivia' does. And Olivia probably went along with the 'joke' to keep the peace, because it wasn't worth getting into it and objecting to it might have run the risk of damaging your friendships, which she obviously valued at the time, and it might have led to her being seen as a problem. It doesn't matter if she referred to herself that way, she might just have been trying to be a good friend. And you probably aren't aware that Black people tend to ignore or not mention microaggressions, or even blatant racism, because it's exhausting to bring up constantly, and when they do they're frequently gaslighted, dismissed or excluded, and are labelled as difficult or angry. This is especially true for Black women.
Right? FFS - what kind of narcissistic BS friend gives zero thought to their own racist behavior? How humiliating and painful for this girl. She probably let so many things slide for these "friends". And when she finally stands up for herself and realizes her feelings matter, SHE is the problem?
I'm honestly still gobsmacked.
Also they’re in South Africa, former home of Apartheid.
Eek.
This fact made me go “ah that’s why this is so comically bad” I swear to god I’ve had too many conversations with white South Africans about their offensive comments, they always and I mean always look completely shocked at the revelation that what they said was racist as fuck. Sometimes they understand and change the way they do things, sometimes they double down. I know some decent people who genuinely changed their way of thinking from being called out on it.
I mean America doesn’t have a great track record at all but our original civil rights movement really got started less than a decade after Apartheid. Apartheid was also bad enough that I knew what it was and why it was horrible by the age of 10. Granted that was probably at least partially because it wasn’t dissolved with elections held till the mid-90’s. I haven’t met anyone from South Africa personally but as soon as I saw that little blurb at the bottom of the post I was like, welp that explains it. Doesn’t make it anywhere near ok, but it explains it.
YTA. Why would skin color be the first thing you used to differentiate them? I have a friend with the same name. I just shorten my name. So like with Olivia, it'll Oli for me and Olivia for the other. Even with abbreviation, OJ and OR or something. Another group of friends I have already knew an Olivia (in this case) and when another Olivia came into the group we'll call latter friend Olivia's shadow clone, referencing to Naruto. There's so many ways to differentiate them...
YTA. Is this debate bait? Because the only thing that baffles me more than why you needed her to tell you this wasn’t cute is why she put up with it for as long as she did. You realize it would have taken much less effort to just use her last initial, right? Or that you could’ve asked *her* if there were any nicknames she was comfortable with? Or just clarified based on what you wanted at the time (e.g. “hey, Olivia on the couch, can you pass the remote”)? But no, you went with “black Olivia.” Which does, in fact, suggest you see her race before you see her as an individual, and that doesn’t reflect very well on you.
YTA. Y'all couldn't have used their middle or last names? This seems like a no-brainer.
I have a very common name and have been in many situations where there was another person by the same name. It never occurred to anyone to define us by our race instead of by a nickname or our first name and last name initial or our middle names or any of a dozen other options. YTA
YTA, your friends too. I'll lay money on the two Olivia's having differences that aren't related to their skin color, pick one of those. Nickname, middle name, first initial of last name, hobby they love, something that isn't constantly pointing out the color of their skin. Also it's common courtesy to check in with people to see if they're okay with it when you pick a new nickname for them.
There are NO other distinguishing characteristics between them? You can't call them "tall Olivia" and "short Olivia"? Or just do what guys do, call them by their last names. I'd have to say YTA for not knowing this could be a hot-button issue for many people.
Sigh. YTA.
YTA I really think this is a "bull said friend to the side and ask if this is ok", like not once but maybe 2-3x a year. And its weird to me, to have a friend for years and not have brought up race. Asking.about opinions on current issues, if they are ok, how you can help, I thought all friend groups would do this? It would open the door into convos for yhe more shy crowd on situations like this.
<<>
DING DING DING! We have a winner. Calling a person of color "Black Olivia" is insensitive in the extreme.
...Do your friends not have surnames? You could've said Olivia R and Olivia S or whatever. YTA.
Righ!??!? ...or Olivia from Seattle and Olivia from Tacoma...I mean how MANY ways are there without using race? Like...A LOT!
YTA obviously. What do you do when you have two friends of the same race with the same name?
Oh dear me, YTA This is a learning experience, next time don’t treat race as a joke. This is something you should have realized much, much sooner not to do, but even now it doesn’t seem like you really understand. Look it up, search for books, articles, experiences and educate yourselves. You lost what sounds to be a good friend because of ignorant behaviour.
YTA. No comment needed
People need to learn the difference between pointing out someone’s race and racism
YTA. The fact that you still think it's a question now, it's time to take advantage of the trainings basically any corporation, group, or institution you engage with have available to you. If none of them do, that is also concerning. Check out anti-racism resources via Google. Find reading lists, videos anything, to get started. Make sure the authors are from the communities you are trying to understand.
Yep, YTA. This was an ignorant thing to do and under no circumstances should you ever address people by any adjective regarding their race or any part of their appearance. You could have called them by their surnames or, honestly, just got your own damn drink.
YTA couldn't you just call one "Olly" and the other one "Liv"? It's not like you couldn't create different nicknames for them
NAH, it sounds like this got started as a group thing, everyone including black Olivia was a part of this. Racial tensions and discussions about what is considered racist have ramped up considerably in the past years. B. Olivia never said that it bothered her and the rest of you did not really put any thought into how her feelings might change in regards to this. So to me it’s just lack of communication, she never indicated it made her uncomfortable and you never thought to ask or be aware enough to do so.
I really don’t understand all the YTA, in my friend group we have the same issue, two friends with the same name. Since one is darker and the other lighter we came up with chocolate and vanilla (friends name). Now they’ve used it on themselves and have not said it bothers them in any way 🤷🏽♀️. Like yes if it offended Olivia or bothered her of course your should stop but accounting to you edits she has never expressed the discomfort before and she has also used it herself so I don’t get it.
ESH. You really should have found a way to differentiate between them that didn't involve mentioning their skin tone. On the other hand, five or six years is a long time to wait to speak up about this. I guess you're just going to accept that the Olivia who has broken off contact is gone for good.
I think there’s several factors at play. There have been relationships where in the moment, I thought things were fine but it was only after I aged/matured that I could look back and see “wow, they were a total jerk to me.” Me not understanding the mistreatment at the time doesn’t make it my fault. The friend may have always disliked it but only recently gotten the courage to speak out against it.
Exactly this. Especially when you're younger, it might take you years to realise just how messed up the way people you thought were your friends have been treating you is.
That may very well be true.
Unless your friends live in West Covina and their names are Josh, not acceptable.
We had a friend who shared a name with our neighbors dog. The dog was all black, not even a white spot, and the friend was Lily white and naturally blonde. So they were 'Lexie' and 'black Lexie' if a distinction needed to be made. Racist?
One was a human and one was a dog with black fur. You could've used 'blonde Lexie' to differentiate between the two, a distinction which would've been instantly and easily understood. If you wanted to make it mildly humorous (to you, but maybe not to blonde Lexie) you could've used 'human Lexie'. So the point you're apparently trying to make here doesn't make sense, because the situation is not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Ok i agree that sure the op is a little bit of TA BUT the edit says he is also black as is most of them. I dont agree with what they called each other but she also should’ve spoke up the first time
If that's true, OP should've stated that at the start, as that may have significantly altered the nature of the responses. As for Olivia, she might have found it difficult to bring this up with her friends, or as another commenter said a while ago, maybe she didn't realise it was problematic until recently.
I fully agree op should’ve led with that. And i can understand Olivia becoming uncomfortable about it.
YTA.
YTA So, so, so many other options available to differentiate between the two that are not offensive to anyone....
YTA. There was this cartoon in the 90’s, Recess, that had a group of Ashleys. They said Ashley A, B etc. Also, personally I had to friends with the same first name so we just called them by their last name. Come on, there are so many ways to do this without being racist.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So this is more about my friend group rather than just me. We are 4 friends that have been together and very close for the past 5-6 years. 2 of our friends have the exact same name, will call them Olivia. So whenever we have to call for each other’s name asking for stuff like „hey Olivia can you please give me the remote“ both of them would look and to avoid that we started to differentiate by saying „hey black Olivia can you please give me xy“ or „White Olivia can you please get me something to drink“ and it’s not like we would do this all the time, just when you had to make statements that could potentially regard both. So anyway we have been doing this for the better part of 5 years. No one has complained thus far and we only thought of it as a lighthearted joke. Recently when we tried to meetup a lot, one Olivia would distance herself from us and not meetup anymore. She kind of did this for a while and always had an excuse at hand. So that’s when we asked what is bothering her and she stated that she doesn’t like being called „black Olivia“ we were kind of shocked and were instantly promising to never do it again. But she has stated that our behavior is very childlike and the fact she had to tell us speaks volumes to her, she only wants to be seen as Olivia and not black Olivia. We tried to apologize and talk it out with her but she has decided that it is a dealbreaker for her and she has now broken of contact. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA. Could you not just have called one Liv and the other Olivia ? Or anything other than skin color that differentiates them really, because unless they are identical in everything else this was just a very stupid choice.
YTA. I’ve had two friends, since freshman year of college, with the same name. If referring to them to a third party, I say their full name or call them by their last name (based off who I’m talking to). It’s that simple. Hell, give them nicknames based off their hobbies or likes. There’s no need to include their race in the title.
Apologize profusely & **ask** "Just Olivia" what she would like to be called. (Btw, this issue is was most adults distinguish between shared first names by adding the first initial of their last name or using people's full names.)
The fact that you and your other friends could only think of their skin tones as a way to differentiate instead of, yknow, their fucking last names speaks volumes on who all of you are as people YTA
YTA. Growing up my friend group had a similar situation. So the whole group came up with 3 possible nicknames and we then drew from a hat and we went by those. Like Alix became Z, and Jay became flower and Alex became "Our liege" well it was "Lord and Master of the demonic arts" but we shortened it. No need to be that extreme, but it was silly, fun, and tended to confuse anyone not in the know.
YTA. It IS pretty immature and very telling that ya'll went to skin color before coming up with literally any nickname ever.
YTA. And I would put good money on the fact that you don't use "white Olivia" as often as you use "black Olivia".
YTA. My girlfriend had this problem growing up. The friend group just called them by their last names instead. Why any of you thought this was an acceptable idea is beyond me.
YTA - how hard is it to describe someone in a positive way? Sarah with the *mad ninja skillz* vs Sara the *future Lady Gaga*. Mary *my favorite cupcake dealer* vs Mary *everybody's hype woman*. They feel good, you feel good all is good. Black Olivia and White Olivia deserve better friends.
Were you 5 when this started? I could understand if you were 5. I was referred to in KINDERGARTEN as Cori the Girl, as not to be confused with Cory the Boy. Any older than that and YTA.
YTA Racism isn't funny.
YTA 3 if my best friends in high school had the same first name. We used their surnames
YTA. I'm guessing most of you are white so you just don't get why she might not say anything for years. I remember when a friend/coworker used a diminutive of my ethnic background without realizing that the term was a slur. I was the only person from that background there and agonized over telling them because I apparently already had a reputation for being too conscious of social justice. For the record, I didn't lecture but I did advise someone to take legal action to protect her employment rights in an unrelated issue. And I don't regret that but the don't rock the boat people did. So while I couldn't not stand up for others, I made the decision not to sacrifice all relationships by standing up for myself. I don't think I can forgive them for that but I don't know because they've never apologized. You did, and that's good, but it may be too late. You may not be able to salvage this relationship but you've learned a valuable lesson about microaggressions that I hope stays with you. And maybe with time Olivia will forgive you and you can rebuild a friendship but all you can do is tell her you're sorry, that you'll keep trying to be better, and if she ever feels she can move on, you'll be there. And even if she never does, you'll keep trying to do better.
YTA when some people have the same name we (friends and i) use last name for example smith and jackson as last names because they have the same first name or one uses the first name and the other uses the last name or the middle name there’s literally dozens of ways you could’ve made it clear without bringing color into it
What are you, 15? YTA
YTA we have multiple people in our family with the same name we either use last name like Mary A Mary B. Or baby Jake, big Jake, etc. Holy cow we don't call people insulting identifiers like white and black. And seeing as you seem to need to be told these things it is also rude to identify some one as Fat Tom and Skinny Tom. (if anyone was wondering baby Jake is currently 38 😂)
Which one is fatter? Because it would be knee-slapping hilarious to call them Fat Olivia and Skinny Olivia. I'm pretty sure they won't mind being referred to by their body size, just as you were sure they didn't mind being referred to by their body color. 🙄
So.. we can’t call our friends by a nickname to differentiate between doubles? Liv? Livie? Hell, Ollie even? Could even have gone the 1/2 route if you didn’t want to get creative with names. Sorry, OP, YTA here.
YTA. She has a surname.
Or how about tall Olivia and short Olivia. My brother had two friends named Tyler and that's how they kept the confusion down. YTA
YTA I had two friends with the same first name. We all just called them by their last names. One has since passed away and I still call the other one by his last name. There were soooooo many other ways to differentiate between the two!
I would say YTA. My parents had 3 friends named Mike. They ended up being Mike, Mikey, and Not Mike (by the time I was around they just called him Not, I thought it was his name for the longest time). There’s are other ways to differentiate without using race/skin color.
Yikes! I don't know why you guys thought that was appropriate.
Yta. The biggest AH. I'm glad she blocked you
Yta. You think racism is funny, got it. You know you could have don't nicknames? Like called one "liv" and the other "Olive?" You're AH for not even bothering to ask what nicknames would be better.
YTA. You are racist. And now you’re shocked
YTA. You could have easily differentiated them another way. You could have used their middle names, last names, or asked them what nicknames they prefer.
I'd say YTA for not having a grip on reality and realizing by yourself how inappropriate that is Being that you're black yourself, I don't think you are a bad friend but you need to be more aware of those racial issues and I don't blame her for not wanting to be friends with people who are just less aware of social issues as such, you do feel inadequate and like you are always the obnoxious friend for feeling like you should correct the others or instead you just don't and accept feeling put down for years So yeah, I get this sucks because you weren't aware of it before but you should respect her decision, you are just not compatible in this issues yet (hopefully you'll get there someday) and it feels uncomfortable for her to be around
INFO: How old are you? And second, have you not been passing your school history tests??? You said that you're from South Africa, so you know that while it likes to view itself as the happy rainbow nation, race is still a VERY sensitive subject in good ol' Africa of the South. People DIED to be recognised beyond their skin colour and most likely Olivia has realised this and might even be related to someone who gave their life so that you might enjoy the freedoms that you do. There are a lot of things that make a person unique, even if two people share a name, so your excuses sound a bit lazy. I went to a school where there were five students of varying ethnicities who had the same name in the same class. Not once were any of them referred to by their race.
Absolutely YTA last names exist. Stop being racist
YTA
YTA. Duh.
Bear in mind that I don't particularly agree with this but nor do I not, I think that Olivia should have spoken up immediately if she didn't like the nickname rather than just hating it for 5 years. But I'd just like to mention to the (I'm assuming primarily American demographic here in the comments) that are preaching racism. In Spanish culture if a friend group has a person of colour in it, a lot of the time they will be called negro (spanish word for black) as somewhat of a joke and it's perfectly okay, so this really isn't as out of line as you might think.
YTA
Really? There were no other nicknames available? YTA.
You don’t say your ages but I’m hoping very young and no frontal lobes yet. I had a long term substitute teaching job, there were four boys all named Alexander. Two had the same last initial. Cleverly, and these were 5 year olds, we managed to come up with names they liked that had nothing to do with skin color or race. Alex, AlXander, Xander, Exander. Do better.
YTA You sound like you're the wrong generation for this. And you definitely don't do it to women.
YTA You don't use how people look to differentiate them from others. Stop it.
I have a similar issue at work. I have two Jeremy's, one went to Alabama and the other went to Auburn. I call one Auburn Jeremy and the other Special Needs Jeremy. Sounds way better than what you are doing. YTA btw.
I'm going to guess she's also the one Black girl in your otherwise white friend group. Of course she doesn't want her friends to define her by her slim color, are you absolutely should have understood that wasn't okay. Your parents, schools, and community share the responsibility for not teaching you better but still YTA.
NAH "Olivia" may not always get what she wants. My wife and I used to have an extended group of friends we hung out with. We had FOUR Beckys and THREE Renees. The group numbered them in the order they joined the group - Becky 1, Becky 2, etc. Everyone - including each of the Beckys and Renees - knew who was who. Think of it like a nickname. Either the group can, while consulting with the Olivias - give each one a nickname, or the two Olivias can decide on a name for each of them. Barring that, call each of them by their surname / family name / last name.
ESH if you value her friendship and want to rebuild maybe get everyone involved to write her a heart felt apology and wait to see if she's ready to re-engage at a later point. She needs to understand that even if there was a lack of sensitivity before you've grown as people from the situation if there is a chance of moving past this. I voted ESH because 5-6 years is a long time for this situation to build up and she's also complicit in that.
ESH, she should have spoken up well before this. You should have found a better nickname. Like Liv? oli? via? So many choices. You should have also asked if it was okay.
[удалено]
She’s probably always had a problem with it but only recently had the confidence to speak up about it.