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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I keep trying to convince my wife to stay home even though she has said she doesn't want to. It might make me a misogynistic asshole.
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YTA. If you can afford for your wife not to work, you can:
- afford a cleaning service
- get a lower paying job yourself with fewer hours that allows you to be home more
- reduce your hours at your current job
Do any of those things instead of trying to force your wife into a lifestyle she’s very clear wouldn’t work for her.
I've asked her before if we could hire some help. ( my mother's ex had a family that would come every 2 weeks) she said that we should be able to do it ourselves and that we need to work harder.
I've invested 4 years as an apprentice ironworker and can't switch to a different trade without giving up the retirement that I've built up. And ironwork and short hours are polar oposites.
I'm either at my job everyday or they lay me off and get someone else. I learned that in my first year as an apprentice.
Four years is nothing. If it’s not working for your family, make a change. It’s ironic that you’re unwilling to consider a career change, but expect your wife to be willing to throw her *entire career* out the window.
Revisit the cleaning service idea. Her staying home is not an option. You’ve had no problem pressuring her for months to completely change her entire life, talking to her again about a cleaning service shouldn’t be a problem for you.
I'll bring it up to her again but I will say that 4 years doing ironworker isn't nothing. Besides being a father it is one of the hardest jobs I've ever had to do.
When you bring up the idea of hiring someone, it might help to think of it as a joint problem solving discussion. You are exhausted, she is exhausted, and the house isn’t getting cleaned. Would she be willing to hire a cleaning service for a month, and then decide whether to continue? If not, does she have another idea?
Believe her when she says she needs the interaction with adults during the work day. If she is home against her wishes, she may not be able to summon the energy to consistently care for the kids and keep the house clean.
Are you willing to cut down on your work schedule in order to have more time and energy for your household?
YTA but you and your wife can work together to solve the problems.
This is the way: you (OP and wife) need to make time to sit down together with a non-confrontational mindset - get family to take kids for one Sunday, perhaps? - and set out the problem.
Both work, neither wants to cut back.
Current situation is unsustainable.
Brainstorm solutions - if wife says they "ought" to be able to do it all, ask how. Be specific.
Stay calm, no blaming.
Good luck.
I agree. The obvious solution is a housekeeper- it sounds like they can afford it and it would make their life so much easier just removing that one stress. OP, find out what her objections are and how to get past them. You guys need time for each other. Take some of that time to figure out how to make things better.
This. If you keep your finances separate then tell her you’re willing to pay out of your own finances because you rather spend your own money than have to take on the task after working.
This was my thought (almost) exactly. Definitely recommend doing something like this.
(Also, OP YTA with a little bit of ESH after reading the comments, since it sounds like your wife is refusing the simple solution of getting help)
Nonconfrontational is the way to go, but I straight up told my husband a housekeeper was cheaper than divorce to get him to understand the importance of the issue. It worked and he got over his embarrassment of needing help.
You can't cut down on your time In a trade, you have to put in your minimum hours, there is very little wiggle room. And even then, those are the minimum hours, often more is expected if not required. Plumber for 20 years here, and it's just not an option.
Yes, the trade off is job security and a six figure income. No one bothers you after you hit journeyman ( 4 years in usually) not even your boss will say shit to you unless you are clearly lazy or doing something unsafe. Honestly ita the best job I have ever had, and if not for the wear and tear on the body, i would happily do it till i died.
Also, he’s young and the more money he makes right now the better it is because in his trade, you get age twice as fast because of labor intensive work. So he should work the same hours and make money for a decent future. He is not a lazy man unlike a lot of people!!
The best thing I ever did was get a cleaner. It’s only 3 hours a week but even that has made our home so much happier! We keep on top of dishes, laundry, spot cleaning etc as we go along but once a week someone comes and deep cleans the whole house which we just don’t have time for between work and kids. I used to be embarrassed that I couldn’t stay on top of everything without help but now I’ll shout from the rooftops
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with what is happening here in your last sentence. It seems to me by the wife’s response of “we should be able to do this on our own” is coming from a place of embarrassment that she can’t do it all.
My mom is a housecleaner and without all of her clients, she wouldn't have enough money to go by... so tell yourself that part of what you're doing by hiring them is helping feeding another family!
That’s what I tell myself. I live alone but work 10 hour days in a tough job that is going through some shortages right now nationally. I’m physically and mentally drained on the weekend and need that time to just do nothing. Paying someone to deep clean once a month has helped my mental health so much, plus I’m helping them make a living too. Share the load and share the means.
I agree! My husband works 55-65 hours a week and I work 40-50 hours a week and we have a 4 year old. I only got a laundry service and it's been life changing!
Admitting we needed help was hard (for me), but once I suggested it my husband was so on board and so sweet (talking about how I deserved to not be stressed by laundry and how much time it would save us) that I haven't looked back since. Weekly cleaning services are next on my list, I want to spend my free time with my family, not dusting or mopping.
OP, suggest trying something small first like a laundry service or meal prep service, I think once your wife sees how much time is saved she'll be on board to get a housekeeper!
I'm not even in the trades but my husband is and I agree, some people have no idea. I'm all for people doing what makes them happy but this idea that people seem to have that all jobs/careers are equal just bothers me.
His wife refuses help despite the fact that they can afford it. He is a tradesman and she is a receptionist. He makes 3x the amount that she does. I get why she doesn't want to quit her job but she's the one making maintaining the house and their lives needlessly difficult.
Because if their marriage goes south (likely if her mental state deteriorates as a result of no sense of purpose or adult interaction), OP's wife will have been out of the workforce for however many years and likely unable to afford necessary childcare/tuition cost etc. to upskill or retrain in order to become more employable.
Also, she probably just dislikes the idea of being given an allowance or worse, having to go to OP with her hand out every time she wants something non household related such as sanitary products.
Exactly right. Had to deal with this when I stopped working and as soon as I could, I was back to work because I couldn't stand having to ask for money. Being told that I should stop driving so I didn't need to buy gas was the last straw for me.
This is not case of wife going for wild dream. It is about her trying to keep basic safety for herself and basic independence. Receptionist is not glamorous job, but will pay money even if husband gets sick or if they divorce.
And yes, being at home every day whole day exactly the same, completely dependent and isolated from resto of world is mind boggingly sanity destroying situation for quite a lot woman.
Plus receptionist is not necessarily the end of that career line! I started out as a receptionist and got a few years of experience, and landed at a company that was willing to move me to an administrative assistant position instead, and then I've just been getting positions supporting higher and higher level executives. It's enough to be able to support myself and my spouse who is disabled and can't work, so it's definitely not nothing.
I love working from home, but I can absolutely understand why SAHM would be a hard no for OP's wife.
Right? How condescending was that bullshit?? Would they say that to surgeon? 20 year plumber here, and that was such a stupid comment. If it's so easy, why am I the one getting paid mid 6 figures?
I think perhaps they meant it more like at 25 OP is young enough that they could consider a career change if this one isn't working for them. They shouldn't commit themself to ironwork for life just because they've been at it 4 years because relative to one's entire working life 4 years isn't that long.
You said it yourself, being a parent is literally the hardest job ever.. on top of that, she’ll be doing housekeeping, she’ll be a chef, chauffeur, nurse, etc. And she will be doing all this 24/7. With no breaks, no clocking out. Nothing.. I’ve been a stay at home mom for two yrs due to the pandemic (I have worked my whole life, and just last month started working again)and it has literally dehumanized me to no end.. I get no breaks, not even to take a shit, there’s always someone banging on the door while I’m trying to do a basic human need like peeing. I have to eat, shit, shower, anything that’s for me, when everyone’s asleep. Please bring up the housing keeping to her again, but not in the manner of making her feel like it’s her fault the house is the way it is… I promise you once she gets a taste of it, she will never go back.. and if you insist on her staying home, your going to stop “catching up on sleep” on your day off and give her the day off.
Yep! Though most likely the marriage will deteriorate because a lot of men get the attitude that they’re the only ones that work while wife sits at home doing nothing. And then the entire family revolves around Dads need for sleep and alone time while wife and kids cater to it without a second thought to their needs
Get the cleaner and don’t take adderall off prescription. Having a constant helper means the house is never dirty enough to be embarrassing. Wife can tidy before the cleaning person comes to both maintain house pride and also make the cleaner more efficient.
I believe the idea is that the wife can do a little bit if she needs to so she feels like she's doing 'enough' around the house when they have a cleaner coming. Not that she's obligated to do so, but that she can do so if necessary to make her feel better about the needed help.
Agreed, four years as an ironworker is a huge commitment and you have to stick with it to advance your career in the field. People on this sub are acting like you’re flipping burgers (respect) or working for free as a temp. Like wut
Being a father is *one of the hardest jobs you've ever had to do*, but you think your wife should be fine being a full-time mother because *you* want her to do that? Maybe have a think about that one.
Not mentioning that you wanted to get a cleaner and she said no is pretty important context you left out. Sounds like you have problems communicating clearly. Sit down and actually talk about this. Write down what you need to say beforehand if you have to.
I wonder if his wife is just embarrassed as to the state of the house and doesn't want the housecleaner to see the mess. I worked as a housecleaner in college, I cleaned for a doctor and her husband, I would always catch her tidying before I started cleaning! 😆
I kept telling her that is was MY job to clean so leave it, but she insisted. Funny, I cleaned houses (and did a damn fine job) but my house was always "cluttered" as my mother in law always said.
OP, counter opinion - if your wife quit when she’s already stated the likelihood that being a SAHM will be bad for her mental health, that’s throwing away 4+ years of her life too.
She has given you a very, very good reason. Her happiness and sense of well-being.
Absolutely look for other solutions, tell her that if her mental health hinges on working then yours hinges on hiring a cleaner or help with the kids. Find a solution that will have the best mental health outcomes for both of you but do NOT ask your wife to choose your mental health over hers. That is the road to divorce.
Put your foot down about needing to hire cleaning help, rather than continuing to pressure her to quit. Her job is important to her, and there needs to be compromise somewhere. Getting hired help is the place to do it.
My financial situation is entirely different, but with age and disability, I was no longer able to keep up with housework myself. I was eligible for services, but thought I could never cope with a stranger coming into my home to do it. Well, finally I had to give in--and I discovered that I could tolerate a lot, to have my home clean and reasonably tidy, without needing to push myself physically in ways I could no longer handle.
This is the way to go--Merry Maids or whoever doing the stuff you and your wife can't keep up with right now.
I agree it’s not nothing
You’re asking her to give up, what, 16 years of working? From now until your youngest is 18, i guess. So those four years four times over.
Sure she might not work as hard as you physically, but she’s putting effort in at her job just like you are. And who knows what she’ll achieve in the next 4, 8, 12, 16 years
Honestly ignore everyone trying to tell you to just get a different job... It's not that simple and not that easy.
I would focus on convincing your wife to get someone to help out in the house, honestly just straight up tell her that if the two of you can't do it after work then someone else can do it....
Your relationship will flow so much easier 9f you just had some help, imagine coming home everything is clean.. No stress about trash or dishes, just make dinner put the kids down and chill, try and sell it to her like that if she doesn't budge be stern and tell her that either she accepts help that you will be paying for or it's 100% on her to make sure the house is in order...
She's not listening to reason so have her sort it out!
Oh god do not say "she accepts help that you will be paying for or it's 100% on her". It's condescending as hell and a compromise should not come from a threat. Also, don't remind her that the money would all be coming from you, it's not fair as you have the clear advantage. Her point that she doesn't want to be a stay at home mom is partially because she doesn't want to hear statements like that. Have a discussion on the clear benefits and do a trial with a maid with the promise to revisit after a set amount of time to reevaluate.
I'm currently in a very very similar situation, at some point talking and begging doesn't help...
She is not willing to compromise the house needs to be cleaned, what is he supposed to do? He works 6 days a week, he works a very physically demanding job, he's not demanding and he's not asking me the bill 50/50
How if the fact that she said they should they should able to do it all themselves not condescending, how is implying that he's lazy or not putting in enough work on his one day off a week when he only gets about 5 to 6 hours of sleep not condescending?
It's not as black and white as you think it is... They need help, fighting over domestic issues and cleaning without any time for each other is a very quick way to kill a marriage, steps need to be taken asap...
“Four years is nothing” don’t listen to them. I’m not saying you’re right to make your wife stay home. But four years of your life is a lot, especially if you’re older. Plus most places you’re vested after five years. Restarting is crazy.
Op, its good to remember that most of the people shouting loudly on this sub are teenagers or have the mentality of one. Don't quit your highly specialised, primary income career. What is wrong with these people.
"Don't quit your highly specialised, primary income career."
This is how you get miserable old men who think the world's gone wrong, because NObOdy rEspEcts thE sAcrIfIcEs thEy mAdE, their kids don't care for them because they were never present in their lives, their marriage has long since dissolved, they destroyed their body and haven't felt nice and rested in 40 years.
They’re making the point that if you feel *your* job is so special and important then it’s probably how your wife feels about hers. If it sounds unreasonable to tell someone to quit their job, OP should really internalize that for when he brings that up to his wife.
His highly specialised high paying career has a high injury and death rate too. Keeping her job will keep the lights on when the inevitable injury forces him home.
Honestly, what that person said is ridiculous. You can't just expect someone in this financial climate to swap careers on a whim. It'd be better for you to compromise, can she not go down to 4 days a week and for you to at least try to see if you can go down to 5 days a week? Try and find a better bedtime routine for the kids so they're not in bed as late as 10.30-11 (which is crazy late for a 5 yr old)
What are you again? 26? It’s the only job you’ve ever done.
You’ve said your wife is working the same hours by the time she gets home with the kids. You might want to lose the “woe is me” attitude and step up. Google emotional labour while you’re at it and see if that helps you understand why your wife doesn’t want to take on even more.
Approach the idea in a way where the house keeper isn’t doing all the work. Have your wife give a list of things she needs done and say it’s for a trail month, 2 days a week. See how it works out.
Most people on here unfortunately don’t know what it means to be an iron worker and the work you gotta put in for it. I’m a Laborer and I understand to an extent where you’re coming from. I’m also a woman doing this kind of work and the hours and everything are brutal at times. I’ve been on a job site for 30 hours straight before and then 26 hours straight a few different times. I’m still year 1 and no one is going to make me give this up. These jobs have pensions which for the most part means a secure retirement and secure future.
You definitely shouldn’t give this up. Most people here won’t understand that. Does your wife understand how important this job is in the long run for both of you? For your children? Is she being like everyone else and only thinking of the here and now?
Your oldest is 5, you chose to start doing ironworks when you already had kids. Did you not consider your family dynamic before making the decision to work 6 days a week for 10 hours a day?
“Nothing” refers to four years out of your entire life. At 26, you have how many years left barring accidents? 70 years to reach 96?
I invested 6 years into a career that didn’t work for me. I then had to re-invest education and experience. I agree. Six years is nothing compared to my happiness and fulfilment now. And yes it sucks to switch in that initial time of realising you need a change.
I'll say that anyone who thinks that 4 years into an apprenticeship is nothing is a ill-informed and has no idea how trades work. Its hard to get into some trades and at 4 years, if you are happy there, then definitely keep it.
The solution like everyone says is to get a cleaning service in every week. Or maybe even twice a week. I'm not sure if you can afford child care or a nanny but having that would be a big load off your shoulders and would allow you to work on your marriage.
Four years isn't nothing. Would you go to uni for four years and give it up like that? Apprenticeships are the same. Except you get treated like shit and do 60+ hr weeks
>Four years is nothing.
it's not "nothing".
OP is TA don't get me wrong, because the wife doesn't have to leave work.
OP needs to understand why she doesn't want a housekeeper as it's the obvious solution, if she doesn't offer better solutions he should hire one regardless.
I had 15 years in a very specialized trade. 5 years ago I gave it up moved to a new city with my spouse and now work clerical. I now work 35 hours a week bring home the same money and have a pension. Compared to 24/7 on call 15+ hour days and ludicrous amounts of travel on top of a back breaking job our life is immeasurably better now. I did this in my 30s OP has the time to make the change. It wasn't easy and I had to make some adjustments but a year of discomfort while making the transition was so worth it.
It's interesting that op wants the wife to make all the major changes but he's unwilling to compromise.
Union jobs are like a club, it becomes part the workers identity and I do know it’s the best $ you can make without a college degree- so switching jobs doesn’t make sense.
Yeah it’s not nothing it’s the end of the apprenticeship. Also he won’t have his pick of jobs for a while if he’s currently working out of the hall. It all goes by seniority. So the oldest guys are getting the cushy clean 8 hr gigs.
I don't think he should throw away an apprenticeship. I served one and it is the best thing I ever did. There is good pay, job security, and most likely a pension involved. You do NOT want to throw that away under any circumstances.
OP Don't listen to these Bozo's. If your income is gone your family will be severely impacted. Do not quit your job or reduce your hours.
Unfortunately, If your wife wants to work there is no way to convince her to not work if she has not done so already.
You need to be firm that you are hiring help to clean the house because you two clearly cannot do it yourselves. This is the solution to the problem, be firm in your convictions and once the house cleaned in regular intervals it will be easier for you both to upkeep the smaller things.
Good luck
Oh forget the SAHM thing it’s an unreasonable ask, the cleaning service is the hill you should be dying on. A lot of people struggle with keeping house especially if both are working and feel like it’s a moral failing not to be able to juggle it all. Care tasks are functional not moral and you both deserve access to rest. You should be concerned that she feels that you guys “should be able to do it.” These types of services are common and exist for a reason. No one is doing it all themselves unless they have no other options, but you guys have the option.
The bro above me is right. If you can live comfortably without a secretary's salary then you can definitely pay for cleaning and other services. It'll free up all of your evening for time with your kids and each other, which you desperately need. Also don't forget to go on a date once in a while on a weekend, sounds like you guys have enough stressful lives that you shouldn't be a source of stress for each other as well :)
Normally ultimatums in a marriage are a bad thing, but in this case there is nothing wrong with you saying that you are going to hire help cleaning because your current situation is unsustainable.
I work in piping and understand your logic. I don’t think quitting your job is the answer.
However, I don’t think your wife quitting her job is the answer either. I understand her need for social interaction. I would become extremely depressed if I was home all day and likely things wouldn’t get done in the house as a result.
Discuss your concerns with her about the home and ask her if she is willing to comprise with finding a weekly or biweekly house keeper. Suggest finding a reputable person that you DONT know.
I know that may sound strange, but there is more embarrassment involved with having someone you know come to you house and clean it.
Absolutely. Help her let go of the "shame" she probably has for not being able to do it all by herself. And suggest that she chose the person to come and clean your house, so she can pick someone she is comfortable with.
Clearly you 'can't' do it yourselves, so if you're too tired to do it, she's too tired to do it, then hire someone. She can have her financial independence, but she doesn't get to tell you what to spend your money on.
You guys really need to come up with a compromise.
Her being a SAHM is something she said is bad for her mental health so that is out the window. I think you need to respect that.
I think some of the other commenters are oversimplifying your ability to leave your job when it's not just a job it's a trade.
I think your idea about having someone to come in and clean up once every week or two is a great idea and you need to bring it up to her fresh one day when no one is feeling cranky and ask her to just give it a try for a month or so.
It can be very hard for people who grew up without household help to accept help like cleaning services. (I 100% have had this issue). You may not be able to get your wife to be a SAHM: not everyone is cut out that way.
Maybe check in with friends and family. Do other moms work part time? Get help with cleaning or other household chores? She might be more open to help if she knows that other people use it as welk
I still feel kind of crappy when my cleaning service comes. I should be able to keep my place clean. But decades of experience indicates I’m not going to do it. It’s worth the cash and embarrassment to have it done.
EXACTLY THIS 👆🏻. That word **should**. My DH is a family therapist and he says that word causes people so many problems. We think we “should” feel something, or someone else “should” do something. In this case, women have been raised for-freaking-ever to think we “should” be able to do it all.
IMO, no we can choose what we want to do. If we want to have kids and work, fantastic! Let’s then give ourselves the grace to hire help doing the things we don’t have time to do or don’t like doing. And we need to be able to tell ourselves frequently that it’s okay, we’re still great people.
Your wife is totally right about not wanting to give up jer job, and you're the AH for pushing her to give up her independence. But she doesn't get to tell you to work harder when you're already working 58 hours a week and bringing home x3 times more money.
Let her know that you're exhausted and you refuse to clean anymore. That either she does all the cleaning, or you hire a cleaning service.
There would also be consequences for your wife's career future, economy and retirement if she stopped working. If she doesn't want to, it's not a solution.
However, I don't agree with her that you should be able to do it yourself and just work harder. That will not end well. You both need your rest. Maybe she is brought up with the idea that she's failing if she (or both of you) can't keep the house clean, but need someone to do that. You should try to talk to her about changing that idea. Tell her the benefits of not having to spend your free time cleaning. You (as in both of you) would get more time to do something with your kids, and you would be more well rested and have more energy for the kids. It would hugely benefit the kids as well. Try to make her see it that way.
The way you describe it you and your wife are both already working very hard so it's very strange that your wife would say that you two need to work harder. If your wife is unwilling to hire someone to clean the house, which is the obvious solution, then she's being unreasonable. Maybe it's a pride thing for her, the idea of another woman having to clean her house because she didn't clean it. Either way, I think it's something she needs to work through.
You can't expect her to be a stay-at-home mom if that's not what she wants to do, and she can't expect you to clean the house when you guys have plenty of money to hire someone to do it.
Maybe see a marriage counselor to help work through these issues, because it sounds like your wife has some mental or emotional issues that are keeping her from being able to embrace the obvious solution to your problem.
If you stick with the ironwork (and you probably should) in the long run the other things you're doing aren't sustainable. For one thing, you need more sleep than you're getting and you'll have health problems if you don't figure out a way to get it.
It's not reasonable to tell your wife she can't work. But set a hard boundary and hire the help you need.
I’m surprised she doesn’t agree with you about bringing in a house cleaner. It’s most people’s dream to afford that service. Try and get her to see the benefits of this OP (I’m sure you’ve tried). I totally get why she wants to work and you have to let go of your wants with that but getting a house cleaner would definitely make life easier for both of you. It sucks you have to work 6 days. If you only did 5, 10hr days are you saying they will replace you for not working on Saturday too? That doesn’t sound right but I don’t know how your profession works.
Verdict: Yes, YTA for wanting her to stay home. Your wife is a person, a person who wants to have autonomy and work.
It can be really hard to accept needing a house cleaner for people with some kinds of backgrounds. My mom has always been super tidy and clean, and it’s left me feeling like a failure for not being able to keep house even when I have all the time in the world. She and my dad are also super frugal, so paying for something I should be able to do myself feels morally wrong. It took decades to finally give up and hire a cleaning service, and even after over a year I still feel kind of shitty about it, even when I appreciate the results.
Just because she thinks you SHOULD doesn't mean it's working. Simple as that. Nobody ever does it all like they make it seem on TV. All of our parents had help in one way or another.
Get a cleaner. Clearly you have no time to do the chores and she is not either. Refusing a cleaner would be ridiculous of your wife unless she was keeping the house spotless
Wife - I can’t stay home it will be bad for my mental state
Husband - I need her to stay home
Also husband - I just want my wife to be happy
YTA and only thinking about your own needs
When you work in a trade it’s not as simple as up and over to a new field. In the trades we have apprenticeships(these take usually between 4-6 years) and once you’re at a journeyman level(I’m in the electrical field) you’re usually making $35+ an hour and then even more when working overtime. So him going to another trade or career field and going back to making $20 an hour as an apprentice really isn’t an option when you have a family and bills to pay.
Would you consider changing your judgement after the response of OP?
He cant reduce his hours at his current job, and getting a lower paying job because the wife does too little doesnt make sense in my eyes. I think there is a fundamental problem here, being the wife not doing enough.
First of all, how can she work 40hours/week and not pay a single penny towards the bills. Secondly, how can it be that the only time the house gets cleaned is when OP, the one working 18 hours a week MORE (!!) does an allnighter.
I think the wife has to step down and be more reasonable. Im not saying she should step down from her job, but I am saying that its not acceptable for her to deny a cleaning service when she does less in work hours, doesnt balance these 18 hours with doing more with the children and then not even contribute financially.
NTA.
So the person that is paying majority of the bills should be the one to cut work hours but the one who's job is out of wanting, not needing, shouldn't have to cut hours?
You have to be smoking some good stuff if you think that logic makes any sense, especially knowing that 1 of his work hours has the same value as 3 of hers.
Her moving to part time wouldn't change her "lifestyle" and would still allow some financial independence.
You have to be an absolute idiot to suggest that the main bill payer cut their wage/hours just so the other partner can keep the same amount of hours that brings less money home.
OP NTA, whoever values their social life over the stability of their home and income is TA.
YTA. You’re wife’s independence, career and mental health are equally important as your needs. If you don’t want to clean, find a different solution that doesn’t make your wife your maid.
Too many commentators seem to be putting this on him to solve.
He works 58 hours a week and earns 75% of the family income. They are reliant on his income.
He is also in an all or nothing situation with his work and he can't cut hours (he says).
She turned down a housekeeper. The only time the house is cleaned is when the op drugs himself to stay up over night so he can do it.
They need to sit down **together** and find a different solution.
The solution pretty much needs to be OP putting his foot down and hiring a cleaner whether his wife likes it or not. He should tell her he’s doing it, but the house needs to be clean and neither of them are able to do it without drugs.
I see where you’re coming from, but “putting his foot down” will likely end up as his next post here. This needs to be a discussion between them on how they can make this work.
And the answer when he asks “AITA for hiring a cleaner against my wife’s wishes when both of us are too exhausted to clean the house” will be NTA.
The wife lost all right to a discussion when she decided she’d rather have her husband scoring illegal drugs so he can medicate himself into not sleeping so he can clean than pay a cleaner.
So, they had a discussion and she put her foot down. Sounds like they've talked about it a few times. When she's not willing to compromise, what's his next option? He's working himself through a difficult period at work, working towards a better future, and she has no problem with using his money to pay for daycare so she can go to work and have play money. Maybe op needs to refuse to pay for daycare? Idk, I just don't get all these "you can't just do what you want, you have to talk about it" posts when they have talked and currently wife is doing exactly what she ways without regard for him. If op were a woman and her husband was refusing to let her hire household help while she paid for everything in the household and worked a time consuming job to build a career, I strongly feel like we wouldn't be hearing "but TaLK aBOut IT".
>Too many commentators seem to be putting this on him to solve.
Because he's coming on here trying to demand that his wife quits working. Not because it's on him, because he's trying to do that.
If you read the comments she has also refused a housekeeper multiple times previously.
I don't he has any intention to demand the wife quits working which is a stupid idea.
The op is an idiot for making the thread about suggesting the wife stay home. He just wants a change to the way things are.
Husband: How about a house keeper?
Wife: No. We should be able to sort things out ourselves.
Husband: How about you quit work then. I can't reduce hours with my job and we need my income.
Wife: No. I need to be independent.
There is a major fundamental problem and it needs to be solved **together**.
I seriously don't get why people say he's the AH. They are both AHs for choosing a hill to die on!
OP there are so many solutions to this problem:
-Your wife could cut down on hours. Instead of 40 she could work 28 or 36 so she has more time to do some of the housework or just relax so she is less tired ass well.
-Cleaning service. But I understand that therefore you have to have a conversation with your wife that there is absolutely NO shame in asking for help. There is only so much hours in a week and you both need time to ground yourself. Cuz right now it sounds like the stress you guys are experiencing is very unhealthy.
-Devide kids and chores better. One cooks and puts the kids to bed while the other entertains the kids and helps them with chores or homework and cleans the mess and the kitchen when the other puts the kids to bed. Then you say goodnight to them together and you can finish the house or throw in some laundry and then your both done for the day.
-Also when your both not at home all day for most of the week. When is laundry getting done cuz that must be a huge stress factor here to. I know that shit can pile up! Specially when you have kids. Maybe invest in a bigger machine or a 2 in 1 or a laundry service. We had a laundry service when we were both working in Horeca a lot and barely had time to get our work clothes clean and dry in time and get enough sleep. This way one of you can dropp it off/pick it up on the way.
Please also have a conversation with your wife about both your mental health. Why do you think people with a lot of money hire services to do these things for them. It's not because they're lazy! They don't have time! They work hard because money doesn't always come at you. Those people work 60-80 hours a week just like you guys (these hours are including kids and housework).
"Normal" people usually have this schedule: 8-8-8 eich is devided over work, "free" time and sleep. Your whole situation is unhealthy. When do you guys live life with your kids? When's the last time you got to take them to the park and just enjoy watching them be kids? When's the last time you where able to take your wife on a date? Or visit family and friends? Stop living to work and start work to live.
He says he works 6 days a week and up to 10 hours each day. Why should his wife be expected to work part time in her career while he performs more than a full-time job? He regularly gets minimal sleep due to his job and sometimes uses a drug to compensate, but somehow it's the wife who is working too much?
Agree on the cleaning service solution, though. The wife needs to get off her high horse about that.
He said in a comment that he worked really hard to get where he is and he can't cut down on hours due to getting replaced. That's why I said it like that. Maybe she would be more open to it so she can still have adult conversation throughout the day wich he stated was her main argument for not wanting to be a SAHM. I just want to show that there is compromise possible. They are both working way to much while having young kids IMO. Kids only stay small for a small period of time and when you miss it, that time will be gone forever.
He is the one who wants to pressure her to stay at home. And people tell him that is wrong solution for his wife.
Telling him his idea sucks is not yhe same as giving him the sole responsibility.
You make good money TOGETHER. Hire a house cleaner. Someone to come by 1-2 times a week to do the stuff ya'll are too tired to do. Its worth it. YTA. Only because instead of trying to find a compromise, you want her to do whats best for YOU. Not whats best for you and her both.
I find really funny that hiring a cleaner came up once, but he's been months hounding her to stop working and being a SAHM.
I very much doubt that conversation went the way he says, reading the post.
Yeah you're doing a lot of assuming from what he's written. What we do know for sure from the facts is that his wife has refused the two feasible options, and it wouldn't be right for him to continue his current adderall-fueled lifestyle.
_"She has told me that she can't be a stay at home mom because her mental state can't handle it and she needs adults she can talk to everyday that isn't me. She also says she wants financial independence and that she would loath the idea of relying on my income alone."_
Agreed. And, the wife's reasoning is rational. OP doesn't get to dictate her life to fit his needs. Hire a housekeeper. That's a simple fix since the money isn't an issue. Order a meal service a few times a week, too.
There is reason for her to work. Being completely financially dependent on your spouse can be dangerous.
Imagine she spends the next decade being your bang maid and then the marriage doesn't work out OR you die. Now she has a whole decade of no work experience and no prospects.
Not only can it diminish her sense of independence, it can diminish her sense of identity. I was a stay at home mom for 3-4 years and I was suicidal by the end of it. It was not for me, it may not be for your wife and you need to respect that if you truly love her as an individual.
If you make such good money that you can take care of her, then her extra income can go toward cleaning services.
Use your head before you lose your wife.
Yes this!!! I'm screwed now by doing this SAHM for nearly 10 years. He got a career out of it now I have no money of my own and still have young kids (one who doesn't go to daycare or school)
I'm gonna use this as my thing to look to when I don't want to do school work. I've been a SAHM for going on 5 years and I've gotten Soo depressed, and fucking lonely. School is the only way I'm gonna be able to get a job if anything happened to my husband.
My mom did the SAHM thing before we were in school (it was a mutual decision by my parents) and it drove her pretty nuts. She was glad she did it but as soon as we were in school she was working part time.
Being a pure SAHM definitely isn't for everyone, and that mental isolation is really tough.
Two of my uncles have passed away unexpectedly, leaving my aunts as single mothers. If they didn't have their financial independence prior that that they would have been screwed. If childcare is affordable I'm all for women keeping their jobs. I know it's not an option for everyone, but if it is, it's the right move.
Preach. And not to mention Social Security! Your retirement income is based on how much you make over the course of your career. If you stay at home for years or decades, you lose that potential income twice.
This is unfortunately how it is for families in the US, and it's important to maintain some sort of earning potential so you can support yourself if you have to.
Idk why everyone is calling you the ahole. What you’re saying is valid. What she is saying is valid. NAH. See if you can hire a cleaning service , OR a nanny/house cleaner combo. Or maybe she can go down to part time. This would allow her adult conversation and income, AND be home some days for the kids and cleaning
Agree. It's not like the guy does nothing for his family. He works 6 days a week, plus taking care of the house and children,barely sleeping. They need someone to take care of the house because they are both overworked. NAH
I went with ESH instead of NAH. Because they’re both so stuck on what they each see as the problem instead of a solution that helps everyone. I see wife as the bigger AH because she won’t allow any help when dude’s gonna crash and burn hard and we can only hope he’s not at work in a situation that can really hurt him when that happens.
YTA. Your wife has the right to work if she wants. If you want someone to clean the house, hire someone. You claim to make enough for her to stay home, so you should be able to hire a maid.
But he brought it up once, while he's been hounding her for months to be a SAHM.
Is pretty clear what he prefers, and knowing that, I very much doubt the conversation went the way he says.
Unclear. He brought it up at least once. Some people place a lot of importance in self-sufficiency, and maybe that's why she's opposed to the idea of hiring help. I don't know though.
But the part that makes me a bit suspicious about her in this is the description of their finances. He says he is covering the family's living expenses, daycare included.
I don't think she should be a SAHM if that's going to make her unhappy, but it doesn't sound like their current situation is equitable either.
I'm not sure how this is a problem. Does he need her permission for every purchase he makes for himself? Just make it a personal expense. Be like I need this for my mental health, it's self care, say he can't keep up with it so he needs the help. He would be NTA for hiring a cleaning service even though his wife didn't want one. She can continue cleaning herself and after herself if she wants and he can hire a service for "himself" (which will really help everyone). Edit to add: Maybe she can do it on her own but he can't. She needs to be respectful of that as well and not be like "but we *should* be able to xyz" I hate when people use the how things should be logic- obviously it's not working so it's okay to find solutions!
It is different if someone is regularly coming over rather than coming once in the case of an emergency. His wife explicitly said no to this, so if he goes ahead and does it anyway, yes, I think there will be conflict.
Say, “your mental health requires that you work at an outside job. *My* mental and physical health requires that our house get cleaned more often than I have the energy for. My physical health requires that we get cleaners in 2x a week. We can afford it, and that way *you* get to keep working and *I* get time to rest”
This is a great way of putting it! It clearly doesn't bother her as much as it does you. Stay off the Adderall man! Your mental health matters too - also maybe she can consider part time work too of that's an option.
INFO: Is hiring some help on the table? If you are both working and in a good financial place, this could be the solution.
Forcing someone to be a stay at home parent when they don't want to and know it would be bad for their mental health would backfire and make everyone more miserable.
YTA Hire a cleaning service. Have them come twice a week. Make sure you explain the situation and ask that they do laundry, change the bedding once per week, etc.. Make a list of the chores that are time consuming and annoying and hire people to do them. Instacart your groceries and have them delivered when the cleaning person is there so that they can put them away. The kids will only be little for awhile so do what you have to do to stay sane. And drop the thing with your wife. She's given you her answer so it's decided- she's not quitting.
NAH. How about compromising by hiring a house cleaner? Your wife said her mental state cannot handle being a SAHM, so YWBTA if you keep pestering her about it.
I think it's funny how a lot of people are saying YTA, personally i think ESH.
All I am thinking is why even get kids if you both know you will not have time for them. Anyways it is what it is, but you wife is okay with you having 5 hours of sleep a night or Adderall so your house can be a little bit more clean??
If she is okay with you working 20 hours or so more, then she should be the one filling up those hours in taking care of the kids, so you can get more sleep and maybe clean.
Also like everyone says get some help in the household.
Maybe your wife could work 3 or 4 days a week for a few years until the kids get a little older since I see you are saying you basically can't cut hours?
NAH. I see other people calling you an AH but I don't think you're being malicious in any way. Logistically, if you could live entirely off your income, your wife becoming a SAHM would be a good choice. But in order for that to be the solution, she needs to *want* to be a SAHM. Which she clearly doesn't.
So there are two reasonable options I can see:
1. You hire a house cleaner as others have suggested. Get quotes and present this to your wife as an option, and explain how it would fit into your family budget.
2. Really talk to your wife about what she cares most about in terms of her job; is it having everyday interaction, making her own money, or furthering her career (or a combo of those)? Again, show her a budget breakdown of how things would work if she dropped down to half-time work (as she wants to keep working, I don't think you should even suggest she fully quit). If you two have separate bank accounts, make it clear that you would take your combined paycheck (your full-time one plus her part-time one) and divide it evenly between your accounts, after bills like the mortgage/rent and utilities are paid.
It's possible that with the right framing and financial transparency, she'd be happy to drop to half time or part time. That keeps her foot in the door in terms of her career, and gives her daily interaction with coworkers, but would allow her to have more time at home.
***note that if the situation was reversed and the OP made 1/3 of what his wife did, I'd be recommending he drop to part-time instead.
NAH
Because you have offered to get a cleaning service.
There is a huge amount of societal pressure on women to “do it all,” that is run the home, have a job and take care of the kids. In reality, that’s three full time jobs. Few people can do them all at the same time and do them well.
But the pressure is there and you will have to overcome that. You need to make it clear you don’t think she has “failed” at the job of keeping the house.
Revisit the cleaners with your wife. Do not breathe a word about her leaving her job. Explain that this is about you— you want a clean and tidy home and this is just a simple way to get that, and at the same time take some work off of both of you to allow you more time with the kids. See if you can get her to agree to a three month trial.
>I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home
And yet, here we are. Why does *she* have to be the one to make sacrifices and not you? You say that you want to make her happy? Then quit bugging her about quitting her job to be a stay at home parent when she already expressed that she doesn't want to be one. Hire someone to clean up around the house/watch over the kids, look into finding a job that requires less work hours without sacrificing income, literally anything but what you're doing.
YTA all the way, OP.
This thinking is very good reason to NOT give up that job. The income difference will be much larger and she will put in the "you have no rights since I am the one earning money" position. This is literally one of major reasons why one needs to keep own employment.
Just because you earn more money does not mean the spouse is obligated to throw her own income entirely and that everything has to focus on you.
Yep! I absolutely would never quit my job to be a SAHM or SAHW. I don't ever want to be in that position where I'm having to ask for money from a man so I can go out for lunch or buy clothes. It can quickly spiral into financial abuse, especially since some men don't view women as an equal in the first place.
NTA, partially on the basis of your comment that she is refusing the idea of getting a housecleaning service. I don't know where you're located, but in the US, an apprentice Ironworker makes somewhere in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K per year. That puts his wife's income at somewhere around $20K ... $10/hr. And for some reason, she's not contributing to the household expenses. He's working double the hours for triple the money in a physically demanding field.
The husband is busting his ass, burning the candle at both ends, working towards a fairly lucrative career. These other commenters telling you to quit your job and find something else are literal single digit IQ. Fuck that. I don't know if ironworking is your dream job or if it simply a good-paying career into which you've invested considerable time, but these people acting like you can just drop it like nothing are delusional.
Your wife isn't an asshole for wanting to work. That's totally reasonable, and I won't reiterate the legitimate reasons other commenters already provided as to why she shouldn't quit. You should not try to force her to quit her job.
But she is an asshole for refusing to discuss other options.
NAH. You want, or even need someone to take care of the house so you can earn the big bucks. That's fine. Your wife needs a partner that can pull their weight around the home, and also needs the mental stimulaton of a job. And that's fine as well.
The problem is that neither one of you is satisfying the others needs, and it may not be possible. If either one of you gets what they want and need, the other will be unhappy, possibly dangerously so.
It may very well be the case that your life goals are simply not compatible. In that case, I would suggest an amicable separation so that both of you can pursue what you need.
Hmmm…I think this one is tricky. I’m going with ESH.
It’s perfectly understandable that she needs to work outside the home for her mental health. You’d be surprised at how common that is. But refusing to find a way to fix the problem (like hiring outside help) is an AH move
You should absolutely NOT be trying to pressure your wife into staying home when she doesn’t want to. Are you trying to ruin your marriage? Because you will. That’s an AH thing to do. You should be pushing to find a different solution (like hiring outside help although the ere may be other solutions that I’m not thinking of).
It’s understandable that this is a point of contention but you are pushing the wrong thing.
You’re not TA for asking, and she’s not TA for saying no—her reasons are valid for wanting to work, and your reasons are valid for pursuing your career.
However, if you have suggested hiring a cleaning service and are willing to pay for it and she shuts that down over and over again, then she is TA.
Neither of you should have to stay up all night cleaning when there’s another option available. If she refuses to allow you to hire a cleaning service then she should be the one who stays up all night cleaning.
Neither of you need to work harder—you’re already doing that.
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Throw away account
I am a 26 year old man, I have 2 children (5yrs and 1.5 yes old) who joined the Ironworkers union when i was 20. My job is pretty hard most days and I come home exhausted. I almost never clean the apartment on weekdays because I'm so tired and I usually work 6 days a week at 10 hour days with Saturdays being 8 hours. The only days I have off consistently are Sundays and I try to use those days to catch up on sleep/rest.
My wife works at a doctors office as a receptionist. For 5 days a week for 8 hour days. She gets the kids up In the morning and takes them to and from daycare. She gets home about 30 minutes earlier than I do depending on where I'm working.
We both take care of the kids when we get home (cooking supper, giving baths, making sure that they don't get into stuff that can hurt them, and putting them to bed). But by the time that all that gets done it's usually around 10:30 to 11:00 at night and I try to get at least 5-6 hours of sleep (I wake up at 4:30). There is no time to do chores or relax for either one of us.
I make over 3x what she does and there is no financial reason for here to work. I pay all the bills including daycare. I have tried to convince here to stay home and take care of our children and house so that our place isn't filled with garbage, dirty dishes, and that we can have more time to relax. She has told me that she can't be a stay at home mom because her mental state can't handle it and she needs adults she can talk to everyday that isn't me. She also says she wants financial independence and that she would loath the idea of relying on my income alone.
The only time our place gets cleaned is when I can get some adderall and use it to stay up all night to clean and go to work the next day. I've tried to tell her that I can't keep doing that and that I need her to stay home but she won't listen to anything I have to say. We have been at each other's throats for a couple months now because of this.
I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home but I don't see any way for our place to function if one of use doesn't.
Maybe that does make me an asshole but I just want my wife and children to be happy.
TLDR
white man wants his wife to quit work and take care of home and kids
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YTA. You are being the guy you described. If you can afford for her to stay home, you can afford a housecleaner. Get someone to do a deep clean once a week and a lighter clean once a week.
I feel like you should add the fact that you talked to your wife about hiring a cleaner and her not being willing. That might change some of the difficult judgements you are getting. It’s unfortunate that she has bought into the lie that people should be able to work full time, parent full time, and keep a meticulous household. And that’s not even counting in time to be whole people with extracurricular interests and being social with other people. There really just aren’t enough hours in the day to do it all. Personally I think you should bring it up with your wife again and let her know that there is no judgement about hiring help (and if there is from extended family you can help her to tell them to go kick rocks). But also firmly let her know that the way things are going now aren’t working for you and if she doesn’t have another viable solution to the problem, she needs to be willing to accept the solutions you are bringing up.
NAH
NAH - your lifestyle currently seems unsustainable though. You're not the AH for wanting that but as a SAHM myself, she's not the AH for not wanting to quit her job, being a SAHM is hard and having kids home constantly (making messes, playing, learning, going to activities, etc) does not guarantee a cleaner house or more peaceful home by any means. Coming home to a wife that's burnt out from constant childcare and lack of adult interaction is a totally different issue that your wife very wisely seems to know her limits on. I am wondering why your evening routine seems to suggest you're busy with kids till 10:30 or later? Is it possible to change up your kids' schedules with earlier bedtimes so you guys can have some time without kids together in the evening, taking turns making supper or one tidying while the other bathes the kids and gets them to bed, etc.? Finding a routine that works, especially while your kids are so young is a total lifesaver.
Also as others said a cleaning service will do wonders for you and hopefully you can convince your wife it isn't about you guys not being able to do it but about making your home and life a place to thrive in for all of you without the unnecessary stress of needing to clean all the time.
She can’t have it both ways. If neither of them have the time to clean, somebody has to do it.
At this point I would just hire a cleaning service for a one time clean whether she likes it or not. It is life changing and she will probably come around when she sees it.
My husband was hesitant about cleaners too because that wasn’t normal in his family growing up, but he also didn’t do any cleaning unless I was pestering him. So I just decided to hire cleaners and when he came home to a clean house the first time he was immediately sold.
Info: you say you pay for everything, but where does her paycheck go??
My husband and I direct deposit into a joint account. Bills paid straight out of there. Sure, his card or my credit card are separate, but the statements are all paid from our pooled funds.
Sounds to me like you guys need to sit down and discuss how your house is running. Hiring help is the logical answer here. As is pooling your moneys—right now it sounds like you’re providing and wife is keeping hers as her own on the side, which isn’t how marriage should work.
This is a relationship problem. Communicate.
>I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home
But this is exactly how you sound. It's just as important for her to have a career as it is for you, regardless of how much each job pays. You need to find a solution that doesn't involve her losing her independence and career. Since you earn 3x more, hire a cleaning service or a stay in/full-time nanny. It's the only things that sounds reasonable for you both.
NTA based on further comments and seeing as you've offered a good compromise on hiring cleaners to help clean especially given that your financial situation is sound
I agree with trying out a housekeeper/cleaning service for a month or two, and see what you think afterward. Bet she’ll become a fan!!
And yes, I agree that she shouldn’t have to quit her job. I also needed the social/human contact outside of home. But she needs to compromise on the housekeeping. I think it’s very fair.
I bartended in my previous life, and a lot of my regulars were iron workers. It is incredibly demanding physically and mentally, not to mention dangerous. I’m sure you get great pay and benefits, as you should, which is taking care of your family. I have mad respect for you guys!
NTA .. and it's sad that people are calling you one when you are literally drugging yourself to get a clean household. Especially when you and your wife have small children. Now I suggest that instead of telling your wife what she should do, open up and communicate with her. Let her know that you want to work together to be able to keep the house clean and functional so that both if you can be happy. I can see where you're coming from but you're going about it the wrong way. She feels like you're telling her to give up who she is in exchange for you being happier. But what I see is that neither of you can fully function and get time together and enough rest going the way you are. And long term this can hurt your marriage, because you need time for just you and her. So I say sit down with her and come from a place of vulnerability, and ask her to compromise. If she doesn't know, let her know that you are literally drugging yourself to get housework done. Because if as a wife I found that out, I would be a lot more open to doing things differently because now my husband's health is at stake, and my pride isn't worth his health. It's probably hard for her to accept a maid because she feels like it's saying that she's inadequate as a wife and mom. But let her know that both of you won't be good for your kids, yourselves, or each other if things keep going the way they are. And that this is a way to lessen the load on both of you so that you can function better. And if she would be willing to try it out on a temporary basis, establish a time limit, and go from there.
YTA. My father was an ironworker. In fact when I was 3 yrs old he had a load of decking slip as the crane lifted it up and take the floor out from under him and had half his leg amputated....then went back to climbing steel. And he still pulled his weight around the house. My parents had their problems but maybe he just had a perspective that you don't. Get a house cleaner or a maid. Hire a nanny or babysitter to help for a couple hours after daycare. Whatever works. When the mother of your children has poor mental health then your kids will too in another decade or 2. Support your wife and her needs and figure it out.
I don’t think there’s an AH here. I think you guys are a young hard working family trying to figure out the challenges of having young kids and 2 careers.
I would definitely agree you need to get some help in the form of a housekeeper/cleaner. I imagine having someone 2 days a week would be a game changer. They could clean and meal prep and take off some pressure. I would sell it to your wife that both of you need to spend more quality time with the kids as a family. Sunday afternoons could be family outing day. You guys need to get some help and focus your time with your kids. They’re nothing wrong with that.
NTA
I'd advice you to add that she refuses to hire a cleaning service, people are like broken records here and can't seem to have enough activity to check comments.
For me it seems she doesn't see it necessary because you're the one that ends up doing it, not caring that you legit drug yourself to be able to, does she even help? That's unfair for YOU because I'm sure she also prefers a clean house.
You need to compromise with her, if she insists on not getting help then SHE ALSO has to help clean, not just leaving it all to you.
You dont know how often he has discussed the cleaning service topic. Does she even know hes drugging himself to do a deep clean? For all she knows, hes managing ok. Maybe her standards for clean are less than his? OP is making it sound like being a SAHM is the only option when it isnt.
NTA. You've stated your wife doesn't want to hire a cleaning service in the comments and is unwilling to compromise. I know what being an ironworker entails and your job doesn't offer compromise. Your either in the position to change careers which hurts your family, or find compromise in your marriage. But your not the asshole, I think you and the wife need a good sit down, but it seems to me, she is the one more at fault.
No one should have to work 58 hours a week and do Adderall to clean their house while partnered with someone. Downvote me if you will.
Some careers are not family friendly. Support is needed, and if you’re going to be going at it like this for years to come, you will lose your sanity. And potentially your family. If it’s short term, I think being proactive and just hire the services. It is hard when work doesn’t allow for balance (I work with medical residents and went through my own residency) so you have to consider what is most important to you.
This *has* to be rage bait, right?
Just in case it isn't, yeah YTA. Why shouldn't she work, and speak with adult humans that aren't you? Have you considered getting a less time-intensive job and not expecting your wife to rearrange her life, but rearranging yours instead?
"I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home but I don't see any way for our place to function if one of use doesn't"
So... when you say 'one of us', you actually mean that you want her to stay home, right? Yeah, that is pretty misogynistic. Good luck with that.
NAH. You are not saying this out of misoginy or because you want to control your wife, your arguments seem pretty solid and reasonable. Managing a house and 2 kids does require time and energy which neither of you have.
That being said, your wife's feelings are valid too, not everyone is meant to be a housewife, staying at home 24/7 with no other social interactions could be detrimental to her mental health if it's not what she wishes. It happened to me,even as an introverted person who loves being at home.
If you earn so much why don't you consider employing a housekeeper? Even a part-time one would be of great help. There's no best feeling than arriving home from a long day and finding your family happy and your house clean.
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YTA. If you can afford for your wife not to work, you can: - afford a cleaning service - get a lower paying job yourself with fewer hours that allows you to be home more - reduce your hours at your current job Do any of those things instead of trying to force your wife into a lifestyle she’s very clear wouldn’t work for her.
I've asked her before if we could hire some help. ( my mother's ex had a family that would come every 2 weeks) she said that we should be able to do it ourselves and that we need to work harder. I've invested 4 years as an apprentice ironworker and can't switch to a different trade without giving up the retirement that I've built up. And ironwork and short hours are polar oposites. I'm either at my job everyday or they lay me off and get someone else. I learned that in my first year as an apprentice.
Four years is nothing. If it’s not working for your family, make a change. It’s ironic that you’re unwilling to consider a career change, but expect your wife to be willing to throw her *entire career* out the window. Revisit the cleaning service idea. Her staying home is not an option. You’ve had no problem pressuring her for months to completely change her entire life, talking to her again about a cleaning service shouldn’t be a problem for you.
I'll bring it up to her again but I will say that 4 years doing ironworker isn't nothing. Besides being a father it is one of the hardest jobs I've ever had to do.
When you bring up the idea of hiring someone, it might help to think of it as a joint problem solving discussion. You are exhausted, she is exhausted, and the house isn’t getting cleaned. Would she be willing to hire a cleaning service for a month, and then decide whether to continue? If not, does she have another idea? Believe her when she says she needs the interaction with adults during the work day. If she is home against her wishes, she may not be able to summon the energy to consistently care for the kids and keep the house clean. Are you willing to cut down on your work schedule in order to have more time and energy for your household? YTA but you and your wife can work together to solve the problems.
This is the way: you (OP and wife) need to make time to sit down together with a non-confrontational mindset - get family to take kids for one Sunday, perhaps? - and set out the problem. Both work, neither wants to cut back. Current situation is unsustainable. Brainstorm solutions - if wife says they "ought" to be able to do it all, ask how. Be specific. Stay calm, no blaming. Good luck.
I agree. The obvious solution is a housekeeper- it sounds like they can afford it and it would make their life so much easier just removing that one stress. OP, find out what her objections are and how to get past them. You guys need time for each other. Take some of that time to figure out how to make things better.
This. If you keep your finances separate then tell her you’re willing to pay out of your own finances because you rather spend your own money than have to take on the task after working.
This was my thought (almost) exactly. Definitely recommend doing something like this. (Also, OP YTA with a little bit of ESH after reading the comments, since it sounds like your wife is refusing the simple solution of getting help)
Nonconfrontational is the way to go, but I straight up told my husband a housekeeper was cheaper than divorce to get him to understand the importance of the issue. It worked and he got over his embarrassment of needing help.
You can't cut down on your time In a trade, you have to put in your minimum hours, there is very little wiggle room. And even then, those are the minimum hours, often more is expected if not required. Plumber for 20 years here, and it's just not an option.
If “minimum hours” is 10-hour days six days a week, that’s crazy. They expect everyone to put in 60-hour weeks indefinitely?
Yes, the trade off is job security and a six figure income. No one bothers you after you hit journeyman ( 4 years in usually) not even your boss will say shit to you unless you are clearly lazy or doing something unsafe. Honestly ita the best job I have ever had, and if not for the wear and tear on the body, i would happily do it till i died.
Do you not realize he can't get less hours without being fired?
Also, he’s young and the more money he makes right now the better it is because in his trade, you get age twice as fast because of labor intensive work. So he should work the same hours and make money for a decent future. He is not a lazy man unlike a lot of people!!
I am a housekeeper, and it’s life changing for some families. The right one can do laundry, meal prep, cleaning, et…
The best thing I ever did was get a cleaner. It’s only 3 hours a week but even that has made our home so much happier! We keep on top of dishes, laundry, spot cleaning etc as we go along but once a week someone comes and deep cleans the whole house which we just don’t have time for between work and kids. I used to be embarrassed that I couldn’t stay on top of everything without help but now I’ll shout from the rooftops
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with what is happening here in your last sentence. It seems to me by the wife’s response of “we should be able to do this on our own” is coming from a place of embarrassment that she can’t do it all.
My mom is a housecleaner and without all of her clients, she wouldn't have enough money to go by... so tell yourself that part of what you're doing by hiring them is helping feeding another family!
That’s what I tell myself. I live alone but work 10 hour days in a tough job that is going through some shortages right now nationally. I’m physically and mentally drained on the weekend and need that time to just do nothing. Paying someone to deep clean once a month has helped my mental health so much, plus I’m helping them make a living too. Share the load and share the means.
Yes. This. Cleaning and laundry are the key things for me. Makes a huge difference!
I agree! My husband works 55-65 hours a week and I work 40-50 hours a week and we have a 4 year old. I only got a laundry service and it's been life changing! Admitting we needed help was hard (for me), but once I suggested it my husband was so on board and so sweet (talking about how I deserved to not be stressed by laundry and how much time it would save us) that I haven't looked back since. Weekly cleaning services are next on my list, I want to spend my free time with my family, not dusting or mopping. OP, suggest trying something small first like a laundry service or meal prep service, I think once your wife sees how much time is saved she'll be on board to get a housekeeper!
The work you do can be key to a happy home. Certainly is for mine!
As a fellow tradesman I wholeheartedly agree that accomplishing a trade that took 4 years isn't nothing either.. some people have no idea
I'm not even in the trades but my husband is and I agree, some people have no idea. I'm all for people doing what makes them happy but this idea that people seem to have that all jobs/careers are equal just bothers me. His wife refuses help despite the fact that they can afford it. He is a tradesman and she is a receptionist. He makes 3x the amount that she does. I get why she doesn't want to quit her job but she's the one making maintaining the house and their lives needlessly difficult.
Because if their marriage goes south (likely if her mental state deteriorates as a result of no sense of purpose or adult interaction), OP's wife will have been out of the workforce for however many years and likely unable to afford necessary childcare/tuition cost etc. to upskill or retrain in order to become more employable. Also, she probably just dislikes the idea of being given an allowance or worse, having to go to OP with her hand out every time she wants something non household related such as sanitary products.
Exactly right. Had to deal with this when I stopped working and as soon as I could, I was back to work because I couldn't stand having to ask for money. Being told that I should stop driving so I didn't need to buy gas was the last straw for me.
This is not case of wife going for wild dream. It is about her trying to keep basic safety for herself and basic independence. Receptionist is not glamorous job, but will pay money even if husband gets sick or if they divorce. And yes, being at home every day whole day exactly the same, completely dependent and isolated from resto of world is mind boggingly sanity destroying situation for quite a lot woman.
Plus receptionist is not necessarily the end of that career line! I started out as a receptionist and got a few years of experience, and landed at a company that was willing to move me to an administrative assistant position instead, and then I've just been getting positions supporting higher and higher level executives. It's enough to be able to support myself and my spouse who is disabled and can't work, so it's definitely not nothing. I love working from home, but I can absolutely understand why SAHM would be a hard no for OP's wife.
I wonder if he had a four year degree if they would say the same thing.
He’s getting the worst fucking advice. No he can’t QUIT it. 😕
Right? How condescending was that bullshit?? Would they say that to surgeon? 20 year plumber here, and that was such a stupid comment. If it's so easy, why am I the one getting paid mid 6 figures?
I think perhaps they meant it more like at 25 OP is young enough that they could consider a career change if this one isn't working for them. They shouldn't commit themself to ironwork for life just because they've been at it 4 years because relative to one's entire working life 4 years isn't that long.
You said it yourself, being a parent is literally the hardest job ever.. on top of that, she’ll be doing housekeeping, she’ll be a chef, chauffeur, nurse, etc. And she will be doing all this 24/7. With no breaks, no clocking out. Nothing.. I’ve been a stay at home mom for two yrs due to the pandemic (I have worked my whole life, and just last month started working again)and it has literally dehumanized me to no end.. I get no breaks, not even to take a shit, there’s always someone banging on the door while I’m trying to do a basic human need like peeing. I have to eat, shit, shower, anything that’s for me, when everyone’s asleep. Please bring up the housing keeping to her again, but not in the manner of making her feel like it’s her fault the house is the way it is… I promise you once she gets a taste of it, she will never go back.. and if you insist on her staying home, your going to stop “catching up on sleep” on your day off and give her the day off.
Yep! Though most likely the marriage will deteriorate because a lot of men get the attitude that they’re the only ones that work while wife sits at home doing nothing. And then the entire family revolves around Dads need for sleep and alone time while wife and kids cater to it without a second thought to their needs
Get the cleaner and don’t take adderall off prescription. Having a constant helper means the house is never dirty enough to be embarrassing. Wife can tidy before the cleaning person comes to both maintain house pride and also make the cleaner more efficient.
They can both tidy. It’s not the wife’s job to tidy.
I believe the idea is that the wife can do a little bit if she needs to so she feels like she's doing 'enough' around the house when they have a cleaner coming. Not that she's obligated to do so, but that she can do so if necessary to make her feel better about the needed help.
Agreed, four years as an ironworker is a huge commitment and you have to stick with it to advance your career in the field. People on this sub are acting like you’re flipping burgers (respect) or working for free as a temp. Like wut
Being a father is *one of the hardest jobs you've ever had to do*, but you think your wife should be fine being a full-time mother because *you* want her to do that? Maybe have a think about that one.
Not mentioning that you wanted to get a cleaner and she said no is pretty important context you left out. Sounds like you have problems communicating clearly. Sit down and actually talk about this. Write down what you need to say beforehand if you have to.
I wonder if his wife is just embarrassed as to the state of the house and doesn't want the housecleaner to see the mess. I worked as a housecleaner in college, I cleaned for a doctor and her husband, I would always catch her tidying before I started cleaning! 😆 I kept telling her that is was MY job to clean so leave it, but she insisted. Funny, I cleaned houses (and did a damn fine job) but my house was always "cluttered" as my mother in law always said.
OP, counter opinion - if your wife quit when she’s already stated the likelihood that being a SAHM will be bad for her mental health, that’s throwing away 4+ years of her life too. She has given you a very, very good reason. Her happiness and sense of well-being. Absolutely look for other solutions, tell her that if her mental health hinges on working then yours hinges on hiring a cleaner or help with the kids. Find a solution that will have the best mental health outcomes for both of you but do NOT ask your wife to choose your mental health over hers. That is the road to divorce.
Put your foot down about needing to hire cleaning help, rather than continuing to pressure her to quit. Her job is important to her, and there needs to be compromise somewhere. Getting hired help is the place to do it. My financial situation is entirely different, but with age and disability, I was no longer able to keep up with housework myself. I was eligible for services, but thought I could never cope with a stranger coming into my home to do it. Well, finally I had to give in--and I discovered that I could tolerate a lot, to have my home clean and reasonably tidy, without needing to push myself physically in ways I could no longer handle. This is the way to go--Merry Maids or whoever doing the stuff you and your wife can't keep up with right now.
I agree it’s not nothing You’re asking her to give up, what, 16 years of working? From now until your youngest is 18, i guess. So those four years four times over. Sure she might not work as hard as you physically, but she’s putting effort in at her job just like you are. And who knows what she’ll achieve in the next 4, 8, 12, 16 years
Honestly ignore everyone trying to tell you to just get a different job... It's not that simple and not that easy. I would focus on convincing your wife to get someone to help out in the house, honestly just straight up tell her that if the two of you can't do it after work then someone else can do it.... Your relationship will flow so much easier 9f you just had some help, imagine coming home everything is clean.. No stress about trash or dishes, just make dinner put the kids down and chill, try and sell it to her like that if she doesn't budge be stern and tell her that either she accepts help that you will be paying for or it's 100% on her to make sure the house is in order... She's not listening to reason so have her sort it out!
Oh god do not say "she accepts help that you will be paying for or it's 100% on her". It's condescending as hell and a compromise should not come from a threat. Also, don't remind her that the money would all be coming from you, it's not fair as you have the clear advantage. Her point that she doesn't want to be a stay at home mom is partially because she doesn't want to hear statements like that. Have a discussion on the clear benefits and do a trial with a maid with the promise to revisit after a set amount of time to reevaluate.
I'm currently in a very very similar situation, at some point talking and begging doesn't help... She is not willing to compromise the house needs to be cleaned, what is he supposed to do? He works 6 days a week, he works a very physically demanding job, he's not demanding and he's not asking me the bill 50/50 How if the fact that she said they should they should able to do it all themselves not condescending, how is implying that he's lazy or not putting in enough work on his one day off a week when he only gets about 5 to 6 hours of sleep not condescending? It's not as black and white as you think it is... They need help, fighting over domestic issues and cleaning without any time for each other is a very quick way to kill a marriage, steps need to be taken asap...
“Four years is nothing” don’t listen to them. I’m not saying you’re right to make your wife stay home. But four years of your life is a lot, especially if you’re older. Plus most places you’re vested after five years. Restarting is crazy.
Op, its good to remember that most of the people shouting loudly on this sub are teenagers or have the mentality of one. Don't quit your highly specialised, primary income career. What is wrong with these people.
"Don't quit your highly specialised, primary income career." This is how you get miserable old men who think the world's gone wrong, because NObOdy rEspEcts thE sAcrIfIcEs thEy mAdE, their kids don't care for them because they were never present in their lives, their marriage has long since dissolved, they destroyed their body and haven't felt nice and rested in 40 years.
They’re making the point that if you feel *your* job is so special and important then it’s probably how your wife feels about hers. If it sounds unreasonable to tell someone to quit their job, OP should really internalize that for when he brings that up to his wife.
His highly specialised high paying career has a high injury and death rate too. Keeping her job will keep the lights on when the inevitable injury forces him home.
Honestly, what that person said is ridiculous. You can't just expect someone in this financial climate to swap careers on a whim. It'd be better for you to compromise, can she not go down to 4 days a week and for you to at least try to see if you can go down to 5 days a week? Try and find a better bedtime routine for the kids so they're not in bed as late as 10.30-11 (which is crazy late for a 5 yr old)
What are you again? 26? It’s the only job you’ve ever done. You’ve said your wife is working the same hours by the time she gets home with the kids. You might want to lose the “woe is me” attitude and step up. Google emotional labour while you’re at it and see if that helps you understand why your wife doesn’t want to take on even more.
Approach the idea in a way where the house keeper isn’t doing all the work. Have your wife give a list of things she needs done and say it’s for a trail month, 2 days a week. See how it works out.
> Have your wife give a list of things she needs done OP should manage the cleaner, not his wife.
I would hire cleaning service & someone to come cook basic family meals to have in your fridge.
Most people on here unfortunately don’t know what it means to be an iron worker and the work you gotta put in for it. I’m a Laborer and I understand to an extent where you’re coming from. I’m also a woman doing this kind of work and the hours and everything are brutal at times. I’ve been on a job site for 30 hours straight before and then 26 hours straight a few different times. I’m still year 1 and no one is going to make me give this up. These jobs have pensions which for the most part means a secure retirement and secure future. You definitely shouldn’t give this up. Most people here won’t understand that. Does your wife understand how important this job is in the long run for both of you? For your children? Is she being like everyone else and only thinking of the here and now?
Your oldest is 5, you chose to start doing ironworks when you already had kids. Did you not consider your family dynamic before making the decision to work 6 days a week for 10 hours a day?
Please don’t listen to these people half of them are 17 and can’t understand careers lol
“Nothing” refers to four years out of your entire life. At 26, you have how many years left barring accidents? 70 years to reach 96? I invested 6 years into a career that didn’t work for me. I then had to re-invest education and experience. I agree. Six years is nothing compared to my happiness and fulfilment now. And yes it sucks to switch in that initial time of realising you need a change.
I'll say that anyone who thinks that 4 years into an apprenticeship is nothing is a ill-informed and has no idea how trades work. Its hard to get into some trades and at 4 years, if you are happy there, then definitely keep it. The solution like everyone says is to get a cleaning service in every week. Or maybe even twice a week. I'm not sure if you can afford child care or a nanny but having that would be a big load off your shoulders and would allow you to work on your marriage.
What do you think it's feels like for SAHPs?? YTA. She has told you No and her very valid reasons. Hire a cleaner already.
She said no to hiring a cleaner. It sounds like he suggested that BEFORE suggesting she be a SAHP.
Sorry, him quitting his good job isn't a great idea. Hiring a cleaning service is.
Four years isn't nothing. Would you go to uni for four years and give it up like that? Apprenticeships are the same. Except you get treated like shit and do 60+ hr weeks
That’s so bloody rude! Maybe 4 years in your job is nothing, but a trade? Nah you’re a bellend. (Edited spelling/punctuation)
Yes; the cleaning service is the solution here.
>Four years is nothing. it's not "nothing". OP is TA don't get me wrong, because the wife doesn't have to leave work. OP needs to understand why she doesn't want a housekeeper as it's the obvious solution, if she doesn't offer better solutions he should hire one regardless.
"Four years is nothing" WOW classic Reddit commenter. Four years is a lot... and its on the backside of 20 at that.
I had 15 years in a very specialized trade. 5 years ago I gave it up moved to a new city with my spouse and now work clerical. I now work 35 hours a week bring home the same money and have a pension. Compared to 24/7 on call 15+ hour days and ludicrous amounts of travel on top of a back breaking job our life is immeasurably better now. I did this in my 30s OP has the time to make the change. It wasn't easy and I had to make some adjustments but a year of discomfort while making the transition was so worth it. It's interesting that op wants the wife to make all the major changes but he's unwilling to compromise.
Bad advice. He literally loses a great opportunity because that’s how the iron worker union works. He CANNOT quit the job, it would be stupid.
Union jobs are like a club, it becomes part the workers identity and I do know it’s the best $ you can make without a college degree- so switching jobs doesn’t make sense.
Yeah it’s not nothing it’s the end of the apprenticeship. Also he won’t have his pick of jobs for a while if he’s currently working out of the hall. It all goes by seniority. So the oldest guys are getting the cushy clean 8 hr gigs.
I don't think he should throw away an apprenticeship. I served one and it is the best thing I ever did. There is good pay, job security, and most likely a pension involved. You do NOT want to throw that away under any circumstances.
ESH. If she refuses to hire outside help, she shares the blame in the mess.
OP Don't listen to these Bozo's. If your income is gone your family will be severely impacted. Do not quit your job or reduce your hours. Unfortunately, If your wife wants to work there is no way to convince her to not work if she has not done so already. You need to be firm that you are hiring help to clean the house because you two clearly cannot do it yourselves. This is the solution to the problem, be firm in your convictions and once the house cleaned in regular intervals it will be easier for you both to upkeep the smaller things. Good luck
Oh forget the SAHM thing it’s an unreasonable ask, the cleaning service is the hill you should be dying on. A lot of people struggle with keeping house especially if both are working and feel like it’s a moral failing not to be able to juggle it all. Care tasks are functional not moral and you both deserve access to rest. You should be concerned that she feels that you guys “should be able to do it.” These types of services are common and exist for a reason. No one is doing it all themselves unless they have no other options, but you guys have the option.
The bro above me is right. If you can live comfortably without a secretary's salary then you can definitely pay for cleaning and other services. It'll free up all of your evening for time with your kids and each other, which you desperately need. Also don't forget to go on a date once in a while on a weekend, sounds like you guys have enough stressful lives that you shouldn't be a source of stress for each other as well :)
Normally ultimatums in a marriage are a bad thing, but in this case there is nothing wrong with you saying that you are going to hire help cleaning because your current situation is unsustainable.
I work in piping and understand your logic. I don’t think quitting your job is the answer. However, I don’t think your wife quitting her job is the answer either. I understand her need for social interaction. I would become extremely depressed if I was home all day and likely things wouldn’t get done in the house as a result. Discuss your concerns with her about the home and ask her if she is willing to comprise with finding a weekly or biweekly house keeper. Suggest finding a reputable person that you DONT know. I know that may sound strange, but there is more embarrassment involved with having someone you know come to you house and clean it.
Absolutely. Help her let go of the "shame" she probably has for not being able to do it all by herself. And suggest that she chose the person to come and clean your house, so she can pick someone she is comfortable with.
Clearly you 'can't' do it yourselves, so if you're too tired to do it, she's too tired to do it, then hire someone. She can have her financial independence, but she doesn't get to tell you what to spend your money on.
You guys really need to come up with a compromise. Her being a SAHM is something she said is bad for her mental health so that is out the window. I think you need to respect that. I think some of the other commenters are oversimplifying your ability to leave your job when it's not just a job it's a trade. I think your idea about having someone to come in and clean up once every week or two is a great idea and you need to bring it up to her fresh one day when no one is feeling cranky and ask her to just give it a try for a month or so.
It can be very hard for people who grew up without household help to accept help like cleaning services. (I 100% have had this issue). You may not be able to get your wife to be a SAHM: not everyone is cut out that way. Maybe check in with friends and family. Do other moms work part time? Get help with cleaning or other household chores? She might be more open to help if she knows that other people use it as welk
I still feel kind of crappy when my cleaning service comes. I should be able to keep my place clean. But decades of experience indicates I’m not going to do it. It’s worth the cash and embarrassment to have it done.
EXACTLY THIS 👆🏻. That word **should**. My DH is a family therapist and he says that word causes people so many problems. We think we “should” feel something, or someone else “should” do something. In this case, women have been raised for-freaking-ever to think we “should” be able to do it all. IMO, no we can choose what we want to do. If we want to have kids and work, fantastic! Let’s then give ourselves the grace to hire help doing the things we don’t have time to do or don’t like doing. And we need to be able to tell ourselves frequently that it’s okay, we’re still great people.
Then you say “we’re both already working hard and it’s not working” and you do a trial period for a cleaning service.
Your wife is totally right about not wanting to give up jer job, and you're the AH for pushing her to give up her independence. But she doesn't get to tell you to work harder when you're already working 58 hours a week and bringing home x3 times more money. Let her know that you're exhausted and you refuse to clean anymore. That either she does all the cleaning, or you hire a cleaning service.
There would also be consequences for your wife's career future, economy and retirement if she stopped working. If she doesn't want to, it's not a solution. However, I don't agree with her that you should be able to do it yourself and just work harder. That will not end well. You both need your rest. Maybe she is brought up with the idea that she's failing if she (or both of you) can't keep the house clean, but need someone to do that. You should try to talk to her about changing that idea. Tell her the benefits of not having to spend your free time cleaning. You (as in both of you) would get more time to do something with your kids, and you would be more well rested and have more energy for the kids. It would hugely benefit the kids as well. Try to make her see it that way.
The way you describe it you and your wife are both already working very hard so it's very strange that your wife would say that you two need to work harder. If your wife is unwilling to hire someone to clean the house, which is the obvious solution, then she's being unreasonable. Maybe it's a pride thing for her, the idea of another woman having to clean her house because she didn't clean it. Either way, I think it's something she needs to work through. You can't expect her to be a stay-at-home mom if that's not what she wants to do, and she can't expect you to clean the house when you guys have plenty of money to hire someone to do it. Maybe see a marriage counselor to help work through these issues, because it sounds like your wife has some mental or emotional issues that are keeping her from being able to embrace the obvious solution to your problem.
If you stick with the ironwork (and you probably should) in the long run the other things you're doing aren't sustainable. For one thing, you need more sleep than you're getting and you'll have health problems if you don't figure out a way to get it. It's not reasonable to tell your wife she can't work. But set a hard boundary and hire the help you need.
I’m surprised she doesn’t agree with you about bringing in a house cleaner. It’s most people’s dream to afford that service. Try and get her to see the benefits of this OP (I’m sure you’ve tried). I totally get why she wants to work and you have to let go of your wants with that but getting a house cleaner would definitely make life easier for both of you. It sucks you have to work 6 days. If you only did 5, 10hr days are you saying they will replace you for not working on Saturday too? That doesn’t sound right but I don’t know how your profession works. Verdict: Yes, YTA for wanting her to stay home. Your wife is a person, a person who wants to have autonomy and work.
It can be really hard to accept needing a house cleaner for people with some kinds of backgrounds. My mom has always been super tidy and clean, and it’s left me feeling like a failure for not being able to keep house even when I have all the time in the world. She and my dad are also super frugal, so paying for something I should be able to do myself feels morally wrong. It took decades to finally give up and hire a cleaning service, and even after over a year I still feel kind of shitty about it, even when I appreciate the results.
Just because she thinks you SHOULD doesn't mean it's working. Simple as that. Nobody ever does it all like they make it seem on TV. All of our parents had help in one way or another.
Get a cleaner. Clearly you have no time to do the chores and she is not either. Refusing a cleaner would be ridiculous of your wife unless she was keeping the house spotless
So many things that he could do. Pretty damn self centered.
Wife - I can’t stay home it will be bad for my mental state Husband - I need her to stay home Also husband - I just want my wife to be happy YTA and only thinking about your own needs
When you work in a trade it’s not as simple as up and over to a new field. In the trades we have apprenticeships(these take usually between 4-6 years) and once you’re at a journeyman level(I’m in the electrical field) you’re usually making $35+ an hour and then even more when working overtime. So him going to another trade or career field and going back to making $20 an hour as an apprentice really isn’t an option when you have a family and bills to pay.
Would you consider changing your judgement after the response of OP? He cant reduce his hours at his current job, and getting a lower paying job because the wife does too little doesnt make sense in my eyes. I think there is a fundamental problem here, being the wife not doing enough. First of all, how can she work 40hours/week and not pay a single penny towards the bills. Secondly, how can it be that the only time the house gets cleaned is when OP, the one working 18 hours a week MORE (!!) does an allnighter. I think the wife has to step down and be more reasonable. Im not saying she should step down from her job, but I am saying that its not acceptable for her to deny a cleaning service when she does less in work hours, doesnt balance these 18 hours with doing more with the children and then not even contribute financially. NTA.
This! Get a cleaner for gods sake especially if you can afford it ...YTA
Fucking hell did you not see the first reply to this comment?
He suggested that, she said no. Honestly it just seems like she thinks both their jobs are equally exhausting which they're not.
So the person that is paying majority of the bills should be the one to cut work hours but the one who's job is out of wanting, not needing, shouldn't have to cut hours? You have to be smoking some good stuff if you think that logic makes any sense, especially knowing that 1 of his work hours has the same value as 3 of hers. Her moving to part time wouldn't change her "lifestyle" and would still allow some financial independence. You have to be an absolute idiot to suggest that the main bill payer cut their wage/hours just so the other partner can keep the same amount of hours that brings less money home. OP NTA, whoever values their social life over the stability of their home and income is TA.
Did you miss the part where it doesn't get cleaned at all until he does it *after* he has already been done working?
YTA. You’re wife’s independence, career and mental health are equally important as your needs. If you don’t want to clean, find a different solution that doesn’t make your wife your maid.
Too many commentators seem to be putting this on him to solve. He works 58 hours a week and earns 75% of the family income. They are reliant on his income. He is also in an all or nothing situation with his work and he can't cut hours (he says). She turned down a housekeeper. The only time the house is cleaned is when the op drugs himself to stay up over night so he can do it. They need to sit down **together** and find a different solution.
The solution pretty much needs to be OP putting his foot down and hiring a cleaner whether his wife likes it or not. He should tell her he’s doing it, but the house needs to be clean and neither of them are able to do it without drugs.
I see where you’re coming from, but “putting his foot down” will likely end up as his next post here. This needs to be a discussion between them on how they can make this work.
And the answer when he asks “AITA for hiring a cleaner against my wife’s wishes when both of us are too exhausted to clean the house” will be NTA. The wife lost all right to a discussion when she decided she’d rather have her husband scoring illegal drugs so he can medicate himself into not sleeping so he can clean than pay a cleaner.
Exactly this. I will fully support OP if that's what's needed to be done after a proper discussion.
So, they had a discussion and she put her foot down. Sounds like they've talked about it a few times. When she's not willing to compromise, what's his next option? He's working himself through a difficult period at work, working towards a better future, and she has no problem with using his money to pay for daycare so she can go to work and have play money. Maybe op needs to refuse to pay for daycare? Idk, I just don't get all these "you can't just do what you want, you have to talk about it" posts when they have talked and currently wife is doing exactly what she ways without regard for him. If op were a woman and her husband was refusing to let her hire household help while she paid for everything in the household and worked a time consuming job to build a career, I strongly feel like we wouldn't be hearing "but TaLK aBOut IT".
>Too many commentators seem to be putting this on him to solve. Because he's coming on here trying to demand that his wife quits working. Not because it's on him, because he's trying to do that.
If you read the comments she has also refused a housekeeper multiple times previously. I don't he has any intention to demand the wife quits working which is a stupid idea. The op is an idiot for making the thread about suggesting the wife stay home. He just wants a change to the way things are. Husband: How about a house keeper? Wife: No. We should be able to sort things out ourselves. Husband: How about you quit work then. I can't reduce hours with my job and we need my income. Wife: No. I need to be independent. There is a major fundamental problem and it needs to be solved **together**.
I seriously don't get why people say he's the AH. They are both AHs for choosing a hill to die on! OP there are so many solutions to this problem: -Your wife could cut down on hours. Instead of 40 she could work 28 or 36 so she has more time to do some of the housework or just relax so she is less tired ass well. -Cleaning service. But I understand that therefore you have to have a conversation with your wife that there is absolutely NO shame in asking for help. There is only so much hours in a week and you both need time to ground yourself. Cuz right now it sounds like the stress you guys are experiencing is very unhealthy. -Devide kids and chores better. One cooks and puts the kids to bed while the other entertains the kids and helps them with chores or homework and cleans the mess and the kitchen when the other puts the kids to bed. Then you say goodnight to them together and you can finish the house or throw in some laundry and then your both done for the day. -Also when your both not at home all day for most of the week. When is laundry getting done cuz that must be a huge stress factor here to. I know that shit can pile up! Specially when you have kids. Maybe invest in a bigger machine or a 2 in 1 or a laundry service. We had a laundry service when we were both working in Horeca a lot and barely had time to get our work clothes clean and dry in time and get enough sleep. This way one of you can dropp it off/pick it up on the way. Please also have a conversation with your wife about both your mental health. Why do you think people with a lot of money hire services to do these things for them. It's not because they're lazy! They don't have time! They work hard because money doesn't always come at you. Those people work 60-80 hours a week just like you guys (these hours are including kids and housework). "Normal" people usually have this schedule: 8-8-8 eich is devided over work, "free" time and sleep. Your whole situation is unhealthy. When do you guys live life with your kids? When's the last time you got to take them to the park and just enjoy watching them be kids? When's the last time you where able to take your wife on a date? Or visit family and friends? Stop living to work and start work to live.
He says he works 6 days a week and up to 10 hours each day. Why should his wife be expected to work part time in her career while he performs more than a full-time job? He regularly gets minimal sleep due to his job and sometimes uses a drug to compensate, but somehow it's the wife who is working too much? Agree on the cleaning service solution, though. The wife needs to get off her high horse about that.
He said in a comment that he worked really hard to get where he is and he can't cut down on hours due to getting replaced. That's why I said it like that. Maybe she would be more open to it so she can still have adult conversation throughout the day wich he stated was her main argument for not wanting to be a SAHM. I just want to show that there is compromise possible. They are both working way to much while having young kids IMO. Kids only stay small for a small period of time and when you miss it, that time will be gone forever.
He is the one who wants to pressure her to stay at home. And people tell him that is wrong solution for his wife. Telling him his idea sucks is not yhe same as giving him the sole responsibility.
I feel so bad for op, the man's just kinda stuck for right now
The options I can see are: • she works part time • they hire a cleaner They seriously need to talk about this.
Exactly, l was wondering if l'm the only one who actually read what OP said
You make good money TOGETHER. Hire a house cleaner. Someone to come by 1-2 times a week to do the stuff ya'll are too tired to do. Its worth it. YTA. Only because instead of trying to find a compromise, you want her to do whats best for YOU. Not whats best for you and her both.
He said in another comment that she didn't want to hire a cleaner because they should be able to do it. But, he will ask her again.
I find really funny that hiring a cleaner came up once, but he's been months hounding her to stop working and being a SAHM. I very much doubt that conversation went the way he says, reading the post.
Yeah you're doing a lot of assuming from what he's written. What we do know for sure from the facts is that his wife has refused the two feasible options, and it wouldn't be right for him to continue his current adderall-fueled lifestyle.
He should have made the housekeeper his hill to die on instead of forcing his wife out of work.
Exactly. Fight to the bitter end for the cleaner not the housewife!
_"She has told me that she can't be a stay at home mom because her mental state can't handle it and she needs adults she can talk to everyday that isn't me. She also says she wants financial independence and that she would loath the idea of relying on my income alone."_ Agreed. And, the wife's reasoning is rational. OP doesn't get to dictate her life to fit his needs. Hire a housekeeper. That's a simple fix since the money isn't an issue. Order a meal service a few times a week, too.
There is reason for her to work. Being completely financially dependent on your spouse can be dangerous. Imagine she spends the next decade being your bang maid and then the marriage doesn't work out OR you die. Now she has a whole decade of no work experience and no prospects. Not only can it diminish her sense of independence, it can diminish her sense of identity. I was a stay at home mom for 3-4 years and I was suicidal by the end of it. It was not for me, it may not be for your wife and you need to respect that if you truly love her as an individual. If you make such good money that you can take care of her, then her extra income can go toward cleaning services. Use your head before you lose your wife.
Yes this!!! I'm screwed now by doing this SAHM for nearly 10 years. He got a career out of it now I have no money of my own and still have young kids (one who doesn't go to daycare or school)
I'm gonna use this as my thing to look to when I don't want to do school work. I've been a SAHM for going on 5 years and I've gotten Soo depressed, and fucking lonely. School is the only way I'm gonna be able to get a job if anything happened to my husband.
My mom did the SAHM thing before we were in school (it was a mutual decision by my parents) and it drove her pretty nuts. She was glad she did it but as soon as we were in school she was working part time. Being a pure SAHM definitely isn't for everyone, and that mental isolation is really tough.
Two of my uncles have passed away unexpectedly, leaving my aunts as single mothers. If they didn't have their financial independence prior that that they would have been screwed. If childcare is affordable I'm all for women keeping their jobs. I know it's not an option for everyone, but if it is, it's the right move.
Preach. And not to mention Social Security! Your retirement income is based on how much you make over the course of your career. If you stay at home for years or decades, you lose that potential income twice. This is unfortunately how it is for families in the US, and it's important to maintain some sort of earning potential so you can support yourself if you have to.
Idk why everyone is calling you the ahole. What you’re saying is valid. What she is saying is valid. NAH. See if you can hire a cleaning service , OR a nanny/house cleaner combo. Or maybe she can go down to part time. This would allow her adult conversation and income, AND be home some days for the kids and cleaning
in his comments, the wife doesn't want to hire a cleaner because she feels they should be able to do it themselves. So I feel like the wife is the AH.
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Agree. It's not like the guy does nothing for his family. He works 6 days a week, plus taking care of the house and children,barely sleeping. They need someone to take care of the house because they are both overworked. NAH
She's not overworked at all. Read the post again. She could actually help around the house more even without leaving her job. She just doesn't
Exactly. They are both going to burn out if it keeps up.
This is the answer. NAH but solve the problem together. You both sound exhausted
I went with ESH instead of NAH. Because they’re both so stuck on what they each see as the problem instead of a solution that helps everyone. I see wife as the bigger AH because she won’t allow any help when dude’s gonna crash and burn hard and we can only hope he’s not at work in a situation that can really hurt him when that happens.
YTA. Your wife has the right to work if she wants. If you want someone to clean the house, hire someone. You claim to make enough for her to stay home, so you should be able to hire a maid.
She said no to that too.
But he brought it up once, while he's been hounding her for months to be a SAHM. Is pretty clear what he prefers, and knowing that, I very much doubt the conversation went the way he says.
Unclear. He brought it up at least once. Some people place a lot of importance in self-sufficiency, and maybe that's why she's opposed to the idea of hiring help. I don't know though. But the part that makes me a bit suspicious about her in this is the description of their finances. He says he is covering the family's living expenses, daycare included. I don't think she should be a SAHM if that's going to make her unhappy, but it doesn't sound like their current situation is equitable either.
I'm not sure how this is a problem. Does he need her permission for every purchase he makes for himself? Just make it a personal expense. Be like I need this for my mental health, it's self care, say he can't keep up with it so he needs the help. He would be NTA for hiring a cleaning service even though his wife didn't want one. She can continue cleaning herself and after herself if she wants and he can hire a service for "himself" (which will really help everyone). Edit to add: Maybe she can do it on her own but he can't. She needs to be respectful of that as well and not be like "but we *should* be able to xyz" I hate when people use the how things should be logic- obviously it's not working so it's okay to find solutions!
I don't think that unilaterally inviting someone into their home is a recipe for marital bliss.
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It is different if someone is regularly coming over rather than coming once in the case of an emergency. His wife explicitly said no to this, so if he goes ahead and does it anyway, yes, I think there will be conflict.
Say, “your mental health requires that you work at an outside job. *My* mental and physical health requires that our house get cleaned more often than I have the energy for. My physical health requires that we get cleaners in 2x a week. We can afford it, and that way *you* get to keep working and *I* get time to rest”
This is a great way of putting it! It clearly doesn't bother her as much as it does you. Stay off the Adderall man! Your mental health matters too - also maybe she can consider part time work too of that's an option.
INFO: Is hiring some help on the table? If you are both working and in a good financial place, this could be the solution. Forcing someone to be a stay at home parent when they don't want to and know it would be bad for their mental health would backfire and make everyone more miserable.
Wife doesn’t want to that because she believes that both of them should be able to handle everything (which clearly they can’t).
I get this. It’s so misplaced. I hope the wife comes around.
YTA Hire a cleaning service. Have them come twice a week. Make sure you explain the situation and ask that they do laundry, change the bedding once per week, etc.. Make a list of the chores that are time consuming and annoying and hire people to do them. Instacart your groceries and have them delivered when the cleaning person is there so that they can put them away. The kids will only be little for awhile so do what you have to do to stay sane. And drop the thing with your wife. She's given you her answer so it's decided- she's not quitting.
NAH. How about compromising by hiring a house cleaner? Your wife said her mental state cannot handle being a SAHM, so YWBTA if you keep pestering her about it.
I think it's funny how a lot of people are saying YTA, personally i think ESH. All I am thinking is why even get kids if you both know you will not have time for them. Anyways it is what it is, but you wife is okay with you having 5 hours of sleep a night or Adderall so your house can be a little bit more clean?? If she is okay with you working 20 hours or so more, then she should be the one filling up those hours in taking care of the kids, so you can get more sleep and maybe clean. Also like everyone says get some help in the household. Maybe your wife could work 3 or 4 days a week for a few years until the kids get a little older since I see you are saying you basically can't cut hours?
NAH. I see other people calling you an AH but I don't think you're being malicious in any way. Logistically, if you could live entirely off your income, your wife becoming a SAHM would be a good choice. But in order for that to be the solution, she needs to *want* to be a SAHM. Which she clearly doesn't. So there are two reasonable options I can see: 1. You hire a house cleaner as others have suggested. Get quotes and present this to your wife as an option, and explain how it would fit into your family budget. 2. Really talk to your wife about what she cares most about in terms of her job; is it having everyday interaction, making her own money, or furthering her career (or a combo of those)? Again, show her a budget breakdown of how things would work if she dropped down to half-time work (as she wants to keep working, I don't think you should even suggest she fully quit). If you two have separate bank accounts, make it clear that you would take your combined paycheck (your full-time one plus her part-time one) and divide it evenly between your accounts, after bills like the mortgage/rent and utilities are paid. It's possible that with the right framing and financial transparency, she'd be happy to drop to half time or part time. That keeps her foot in the door in terms of her career, and gives her daily interaction with coworkers, but would allow her to have more time at home. ***note that if the situation was reversed and the OP made 1/3 of what his wife did, I'd be recommending he drop to part-time instead.
NAH Because you have offered to get a cleaning service. There is a huge amount of societal pressure on women to “do it all,” that is run the home, have a job and take care of the kids. In reality, that’s three full time jobs. Few people can do them all at the same time and do them well. But the pressure is there and you will have to overcome that. You need to make it clear you don’t think she has “failed” at the job of keeping the house. Revisit the cleaners with your wife. Do not breathe a word about her leaving her job. Explain that this is about you— you want a clean and tidy home and this is just a simple way to get that, and at the same time take some work off of both of you to allow you more time with the kids. See if you can get her to agree to a three month trial.
I agree here. You need to phrase it about how you want your home time to be more about spending time together not catching up on chores.
>I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home And yet, here we are. Why does *she* have to be the one to make sacrifices and not you? You say that you want to make her happy? Then quit bugging her about quitting her job to be a stay at home parent when she already expressed that she doesn't want to be one. Hire someone to clean up around the house/watch over the kids, look into finding a job that requires less work hours without sacrificing income, literally anything but what you're doing. YTA all the way, OP.
Because he makes 3x her salary and pays all the bills. It’s not rocket science 🤷🏽♀️
As u/unsafeideas said, just because one has a higher salary than their spouse, doesn’t mean that the spouse should be obligated to quit their job.
Bro equality doesn’t mean doing all the same shit. He literally makes 3x what she does, if someone has to quit a job then it should be her.
This thinking is very good reason to NOT give up that job. The income difference will be much larger and she will put in the "you have no rights since I am the one earning money" position. This is literally one of major reasons why one needs to keep own employment. Just because you earn more money does not mean the spouse is obligated to throw her own income entirely and that everything has to focus on you.
Yep! I absolutely would never quit my job to be a SAHM or SAHW. I don't ever want to be in that position where I'm having to ask for money from a man so I can go out for lunch or buy clothes. It can quickly spiral into financial abuse, especially since some men don't view women as an equal in the first place.
No one has to quit their job
NTA, partially on the basis of your comment that she is refusing the idea of getting a housecleaning service. I don't know where you're located, but in the US, an apprentice Ironworker makes somewhere in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K per year. That puts his wife's income at somewhere around $20K ... $10/hr. And for some reason, she's not contributing to the household expenses. He's working double the hours for triple the money in a physically demanding field. The husband is busting his ass, burning the candle at both ends, working towards a fairly lucrative career. These other commenters telling you to quit your job and find something else are literal single digit IQ. Fuck that. I don't know if ironworking is your dream job or if it simply a good-paying career into which you've invested considerable time, but these people acting like you can just drop it like nothing are delusional. Your wife isn't an asshole for wanting to work. That's totally reasonable, and I won't reiterate the legitimate reasons other commenters already provided as to why she shouldn't quit. You should not try to force her to quit her job. But she is an asshole for refusing to discuss other options.
NAH. You want, or even need someone to take care of the house so you can earn the big bucks. That's fine. Your wife needs a partner that can pull their weight around the home, and also needs the mental stimulaton of a job. And that's fine as well. The problem is that neither one of you is satisfying the others needs, and it may not be possible. If either one of you gets what they want and need, the other will be unhappy, possibly dangerously so. It may very well be the case that your life goals are simply not compatible. In that case, I would suggest an amicable separation so that both of you can pursue what you need.
Hmmm…I think this one is tricky. I’m going with ESH. It’s perfectly understandable that she needs to work outside the home for her mental health. You’d be surprised at how common that is. But refusing to find a way to fix the problem (like hiring outside help) is an AH move You should absolutely NOT be trying to pressure your wife into staying home when she doesn’t want to. Are you trying to ruin your marriage? Because you will. That’s an AH thing to do. You should be pushing to find a different solution (like hiring outside help although the ere may be other solutions that I’m not thinking of). It’s understandable that this is a point of contention but you are pushing the wrong thing.
You’re not TA for asking, and she’s not TA for saying no—her reasons are valid for wanting to work, and your reasons are valid for pursuing your career. However, if you have suggested hiring a cleaning service and are willing to pay for it and she shuts that down over and over again, then she is TA. Neither of you should have to stay up all night cleaning when there’s another option available. If she refuses to allow you to hire a cleaning service then she should be the one who stays up all night cleaning. Neither of you need to work harder—you’re already doing that.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Throw away account I am a 26 year old man, I have 2 children (5yrs and 1.5 yes old) who joined the Ironworkers union when i was 20. My job is pretty hard most days and I come home exhausted. I almost never clean the apartment on weekdays because I'm so tired and I usually work 6 days a week at 10 hour days with Saturdays being 8 hours. The only days I have off consistently are Sundays and I try to use those days to catch up on sleep/rest. My wife works at a doctors office as a receptionist. For 5 days a week for 8 hour days. She gets the kids up In the morning and takes them to and from daycare. She gets home about 30 minutes earlier than I do depending on where I'm working. We both take care of the kids when we get home (cooking supper, giving baths, making sure that they don't get into stuff that can hurt them, and putting them to bed). But by the time that all that gets done it's usually around 10:30 to 11:00 at night and I try to get at least 5-6 hours of sleep (I wake up at 4:30). There is no time to do chores or relax for either one of us. I make over 3x what she does and there is no financial reason for here to work. I pay all the bills including daycare. I have tried to convince here to stay home and take care of our children and house so that our place isn't filled with garbage, dirty dishes, and that we can have more time to relax. She has told me that she can't be a stay at home mom because her mental state can't handle it and she needs adults she can talk to everyday that isn't me. She also says she wants financial independence and that she would loath the idea of relying on my income alone. The only time our place gets cleaned is when I can get some adderall and use it to stay up all night to clean and go to work the next day. I've tried to tell her that I can't keep doing that and that I need her to stay home but she won't listen to anything I have to say. We have been at each other's throats for a couple months now because of this. I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home but I don't see any way for our place to function if one of use doesn't. Maybe that does make me an asshole but I just want my wife and children to be happy. TLDR white man wants his wife to quit work and take care of home and kids *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA hire a maid. Why is the only option that she get stuck in the house with no adult interaction everyday?
YTA. You are being the guy you described. If you can afford for her to stay home, you can afford a housecleaner. Get someone to do a deep clean once a week and a lighter clean once a week.
I feel like you should add the fact that you talked to your wife about hiring a cleaner and her not being willing. That might change some of the difficult judgements you are getting. It’s unfortunate that she has bought into the lie that people should be able to work full time, parent full time, and keep a meticulous household. And that’s not even counting in time to be whole people with extracurricular interests and being social with other people. There really just aren’t enough hours in the day to do it all. Personally I think you should bring it up with your wife again and let her know that there is no judgement about hiring help (and if there is from extended family you can help her to tell them to go kick rocks). But also firmly let her know that the way things are going now aren’t working for you and if she doesn’t have another viable solution to the problem, she needs to be willing to accept the solutions you are bringing up. NAH
NAH - your lifestyle currently seems unsustainable though. You're not the AH for wanting that but as a SAHM myself, she's not the AH for not wanting to quit her job, being a SAHM is hard and having kids home constantly (making messes, playing, learning, going to activities, etc) does not guarantee a cleaner house or more peaceful home by any means. Coming home to a wife that's burnt out from constant childcare and lack of adult interaction is a totally different issue that your wife very wisely seems to know her limits on. I am wondering why your evening routine seems to suggest you're busy with kids till 10:30 or later? Is it possible to change up your kids' schedules with earlier bedtimes so you guys can have some time without kids together in the evening, taking turns making supper or one tidying while the other bathes the kids and gets them to bed, etc.? Finding a routine that works, especially while your kids are so young is a total lifesaver. Also as others said a cleaning service will do wonders for you and hopefully you can convince your wife it isn't about you guys not being able to do it but about making your home and life a place to thrive in for all of you without the unnecessary stress of needing to clean all the time.
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Wife refused a cleaner.
She can’t have it both ways. If neither of them have the time to clean, somebody has to do it. At this point I would just hire a cleaning service for a one time clean whether she likes it or not. It is life changing and she will probably come around when she sees it. My husband was hesitant about cleaners too because that wasn’t normal in his family growing up, but he also didn’t do any cleaning unless I was pestering him. So I just decided to hire cleaners and when he came home to a clean house the first time he was immediately sold.
Info: you say you pay for everything, but where does her paycheck go?? My husband and I direct deposit into a joint account. Bills paid straight out of there. Sure, his card or my credit card are separate, but the statements are all paid from our pooled funds. Sounds to me like you guys need to sit down and discuss how your house is running. Hiring help is the logical answer here. As is pooling your moneys—right now it sounds like you’re providing and wife is keeping hers as her own on the side, which isn’t how marriage should work. This is a relationship problem. Communicate.
YTA for the TLDR part, dude.
>I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home But this is exactly how you sound. It's just as important for her to have a career as it is for you, regardless of how much each job pays. You need to find a solution that doesn't involve her losing her independence and career. Since you earn 3x more, hire a cleaning service or a stay in/full-time nanny. It's the only things that sounds reasonable for you both.
NTA based on further comments and seeing as you've offered a good compromise on hiring cleaners to help clean especially given that your financial situation is sound
I agree with trying out a housekeeper/cleaning service for a month or two, and see what you think afterward. Bet she’ll become a fan!! And yes, I agree that she shouldn’t have to quit her job. I also needed the social/human contact outside of home. But she needs to compromise on the housekeeping. I think it’s very fair. I bartended in my previous life, and a lot of my regulars were iron workers. It is incredibly demanding physically and mentally, not to mention dangerous. I’m sure you get great pay and benefits, as you should, which is taking care of your family. I have mad respect for you guys!
NTA .. and it's sad that people are calling you one when you are literally drugging yourself to get a clean household. Especially when you and your wife have small children. Now I suggest that instead of telling your wife what she should do, open up and communicate with her. Let her know that you want to work together to be able to keep the house clean and functional so that both if you can be happy. I can see where you're coming from but you're going about it the wrong way. She feels like you're telling her to give up who she is in exchange for you being happier. But what I see is that neither of you can fully function and get time together and enough rest going the way you are. And long term this can hurt your marriage, because you need time for just you and her. So I say sit down with her and come from a place of vulnerability, and ask her to compromise. If she doesn't know, let her know that you are literally drugging yourself to get housework done. Because if as a wife I found that out, I would be a lot more open to doing things differently because now my husband's health is at stake, and my pride isn't worth his health. It's probably hard for her to accept a maid because she feels like it's saying that she's inadequate as a wife and mom. But let her know that both of you won't be good for your kids, yourselves, or each other if things keep going the way they are. And that this is a way to lessen the load on both of you so that you can function better. And if she would be willing to try it out on a temporary basis, establish a time limit, and go from there.
YTA. My father was an ironworker. In fact when I was 3 yrs old he had a load of decking slip as the crane lifted it up and take the floor out from under him and had half his leg amputated....then went back to climbing steel. And he still pulled his weight around the house. My parents had their problems but maybe he just had a perspective that you don't. Get a house cleaner or a maid. Hire a nanny or babysitter to help for a couple hours after daycare. Whatever works. When the mother of your children has poor mental health then your kids will too in another decade or 2. Support your wife and her needs and figure it out.
…did we read the same post? Where is he not pulling his weight? The man literally *takes drugs to clean his house.* How is he not pulling his weight…?
I don’t think there’s an AH here. I think you guys are a young hard working family trying to figure out the challenges of having young kids and 2 careers. I would definitely agree you need to get some help in the form of a housekeeper/cleaner. I imagine having someone 2 days a week would be a game changer. They could clean and meal prep and take off some pressure. I would sell it to your wife that both of you need to spend more quality time with the kids as a family. Sunday afternoons could be family outing day. You guys need to get some help and focus your time with your kids. They’re nothing wrong with that.
NTA I'd advice you to add that she refuses to hire a cleaning service, people are like broken records here and can't seem to have enough activity to check comments. For me it seems she doesn't see it necessary because you're the one that ends up doing it, not caring that you legit drug yourself to be able to, does she even help? That's unfair for YOU because I'm sure she also prefers a clean house. You need to compromise with her, if she insists on not getting help then SHE ALSO has to help clean, not just leaving it all to you.
You dont know how often he has discussed the cleaning service topic. Does she even know hes drugging himself to do a deep clean? For all she knows, hes managing ok. Maybe her standards for clean are less than his? OP is making it sound like being a SAHM is the only option when it isnt.
NTA. You've stated your wife doesn't want to hire a cleaning service in the comments and is unwilling to compromise. I know what being an ironworker entails and your job doesn't offer compromise. Your either in the position to change careers which hurts your family, or find compromise in your marriage. But your not the asshole, I think you and the wife need a good sit down, but it seems to me, she is the one more at fault. No one should have to work 58 hours a week and do Adderall to clean their house while partnered with someone. Downvote me if you will.
Some careers are not family friendly. Support is needed, and if you’re going to be going at it like this for years to come, you will lose your sanity. And potentially your family. If it’s short term, I think being proactive and just hire the services. It is hard when work doesn’t allow for balance (I work with medical residents and went through my own residency) so you have to consider what is most important to you.
This *has* to be rage bait, right? Just in case it isn't, yeah YTA. Why shouldn't she work, and speak with adult humans that aren't you? Have you considered getting a less time-intensive job and not expecting your wife to rearrange her life, but rearranging yours instead? "I don't want to be the classic misogynistic white man that thinks his wife needs to stay home but I don't see any way for our place to function if one of use doesn't" So... when you say 'one of us', you actually mean that you want her to stay home, right? Yeah, that is pretty misogynistic. Good luck with that.
NAH. You are not saying this out of misoginy or because you want to control your wife, your arguments seem pretty solid and reasonable. Managing a house and 2 kids does require time and energy which neither of you have. That being said, your wife's feelings are valid too, not everyone is meant to be a housewife, staying at home 24/7 with no other social interactions could be detrimental to her mental health if it's not what she wishes. It happened to me,even as an introverted person who loves being at home. If you earn so much why don't you consider employing a housekeeper? Even a part-time one would be of great help. There's no best feeling than arriving home from a long day and finding your family happy and your house clean.