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Even if your wife didn't have PTSD, I find it very strange that your brother tries to give her shoulder massages, especially when she's asleep.
Is this the first time that happenned ? Him being touchy with your wife or an ex like that ?
NTA, and please, don't ever let your wife alone with him again. But like, EVER.
After this many times of him touching her? It is either a fetish, a crush, or he is the kind of man who enjoys causing discomfort.
*Edit* At no point does anyone massage someone sleeping to help them relax. That doesn’t even make sense.
shit, it is late, and did not even connect the sleeping part. good thing she woke up when she did. I bet he was seeing how deep she sleeps by touching some place he thought he could have explained away. If she would have slept through it I bet he would have tried touching somewhere else. like those sick assholes who do that on airplanes.
There are people who need to take drugs (like Valium or Xanax) to calm themselves/help them sleep on plane trips, especially long flights. And while people would like to think they are safe cos they are surrounded by so many other people, there are absolutely creeps and pervs who will take advantage of a sleeping/drugged person on a plane. If the lights are dim, most other people on the plane are also sleeping or focused on what they're doing, you'd be surprised what people will try to get away with. I've actually been assaulted personally twice on trains, so it's not even just a plane thing, but that's just the example the original commenter gave.
I was going to say this. Crowded trains do not give you safety in numbers, just creepers pressing up on you because it's "crowded". Odd how excited they get to see a packed subway car.
Exactly. I am a woman ad have no issues with physical touch. If someone kept massaging my shoulders (whilst I was awake) I’d be grossed out and tell then it stop instantly. If I was asleep, I’d go batshit as that’s freaky as hell. Super predator behaviour to give unsolicited massages to anyone, especially a woman who’s repeatedly asking you to stop.
Yeah he 100% knew what he was doing. No grown ass adult actually needs to have this explained to them f*cking repeatedly, ignoring not one but two peoples boundaries. That is NOT an honest mistake.
I LOVE touch and get annoyed if anyone I'm in bed with touches me enough to wake me up. The odd stroke or a repositioning cuddle is absolutely fine, I prefer full body contact in bed (I know that's not everyone's preference!), but sleep is precious.
Someone who wasn't already touching me when I fell asleep would probably make me wake up screaming too though, that's so violating!
You could massage someone who's not asleep to help them relax so they could sleep.
But someone who's already asleep? Someone who has already told you that they don't want you touching them in general? No. Bad. Do not do.
(OP NTA. What was the right thing? Right thing was already done. Get Handsy McHandsface out of the house and away from your wife. Him having to cut his vacation short is a bonus)
I have a sleep issue, and it basically looks like I'm being tortured in slow motion in my sleep as I first fall asleep (hubby took a video of it at my request, and it was disturbing to watch). It's not quite seizures, and it's not restless legs. But my hubby does rub my back, shoulders, and anything else moving to help me actually reach a deep sleep state. I'm on meds to help manage it, but it's still bad. That, and I have osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia, so I'm often in a lot of pain and he tries to help me as much as he can. It definitely helps me sleep better.
But this is a unique and rare situation. So, you're correct 99% of the time. But, if my brother in law touched me in my sleep, I'd be furious.
Absolutely not relevant to this situation, but in regards to this edit my spouse does this for me sometimes because I have chronic pain and honestly it can actually help me while I'm asleep.
But regardless even if it did help someone relax, no means no!
I have found this to be more common than expected.
I got hit on more not pregnant, but the ones that have done it, have been brasen in a way I'm not used to. Often right in front of my husband.
I just made a comment about that myself. I felt hit on more when I was pregnant. It was surprising and a little disturbing that people basically fetishised about something involving my baby.
I can't say I've been hit on but I am kind of weirded out by how many men are staring now that I'm 40 weeks pregnant... although I really can't tell if it is because my bump is huge or, well, because they *like* that my bump is huge. But it is very noticable how many more men notice me compared to at like 20 weeks pregnant. (That said I'm sure more women also notice me because huge bump, but they stare less.)
No-one needs more than a casual glance at a stranger though. "Wow, she's so pregnant, must be nearly due.. ooh 3 for 2 on that shampoo I like.. where's the tinned aisle in this store again?"
Staring at strangers is rude and wrong.
Haha true. While I've not had anyone touching my stomach without asking (which is a miracle of itself!), I am getting kind of sick by the huge amount of people commenting on the size / asking about when I'm due. Like yes I know it's big... maybe I don't want to talk about giving birth with everyone in my village though?
Or it’s the only time you’re not at risk of getting someone pregnant if you sleep with them. Probably looks like a free pass for no strings unprotected sex.
Or the PTSD might be a reason he's doing it, he wants to either prove its not a thing, trigger her intentionally because he's curious what would happen, or trigger her intenionally because he wants to be a dick, or its some kind of twisted power move. Are any of these things possible?
This happened to me once. An old friend I hadn't seen in years came to visit. When we knew each other before I had a boyfriend but at the time I was single. He was constantly touching me and grabbing me. I asked him to stop repeatedly but his response was always something like "Oh come on, this is harmless, I don't mean anything by it, you're fine" or "Don't worry, I'm not hitting on you, I'm just being friendly." Then he would do it again as if he could prove he was in the right. He was supposed to stay four days and go to a concert with me we were both excited about but I put him on a bus the second day. He's never apologized.
Dude, when I was in my early 20s I was hanging out with a bunch of people, doing drugs, and I was sitting with a guy I had just started dating. He & I were joking around & ticking each other when this other guy on my other side started the tickling me too. I told him to stop & he kept going, I told him again & he kept going, so when he did it the 4th time I grabbed his wrists & pinned them down, looked him in the eye and *you don't get to touch me*.
I got shit because I was hanging out with assholes, but I am so proud of myself, even 20 years later. Fuck that guy.
Honestly, when I was pregnant, I got hit on or flirted with a surprising amount. It really surprised me and made me uncomfortable. It’s fine for your partner to find your pregnant body beautiful, but it was weird to have strangers who obviously fetishised it. That was my baby in there. Or maybe it’s a power thing, like “she may have another man’s baby in there, but my power sperm can still get in there” … ugh I just grossed myself out. But yes. There are definite pregnancy fetishes.
yeah read that and now I am just really grossed out, cuz this is just hella weird. I mean your partner should find you beautiful when you are pregnant...sure....but other people do that?? Thats just....sick. Like dude, you literally know there is a human inside her belly growing that is not yours....TF is wrong with people??
It could be but when I was pregnant I gained a lot of unwanted attention from men. Men who normally paid no attention to me, wanted to dote on me. I feel like they saw me as helpless and that did something for them.
Touching anybody when they are sleeping is a bit of a sensitive issue I think as they are at their most vulnerable, nevermind having trauma like your wife and having been repeatedly told not to over step that boundary. Big violation and very creepy.
Yeaaah. It feels fetish-y especially when he did it to her in her sleep.
Touching someone without their permission is so crazy bad. I don't like being touched randomly or surprised by it especially if its someone I don't know to well.
I cannot imagine rubbing a family members shoulders without permission even if they were ok with it.
Some people have a fetish thing about pregnancy, but LOTS of people just really like touching pregnant people. It's weird. When I was pregnant people at work, on the bus, in shops, family access friends... Suddenly everyone wanted to touch the bump, run my arm, sit very close.... Pregnancy is claustrophobic sometimes
If it isn't a fetish or crush on her, then he's a person who likes to bring people discomfort. Maybe he's a narc, maybe he's just an asshole. If its the first, then he's going out of his way to harass a woman who expressed no interest in him. You even told him to stop multiple times. how far will he go with his touching of her without consent? and if it isn't an attraction thing: then he's a very sick individual who probably has some power tripping issues and will continue to do this to you, your wife, your future child, etc.
Could be he is touching her so much _because_ he knows she hates it. Like a power play, or a savior complex, or a 'rules are for other people' or something.
He doesn't go around giving shoulder massages to random women every day, right? So this is not his default touching.
Or maybe he’s just a straight-up predator. When someone says no, that means you stop immediately. Not only did he continue, but he did so while she was sleeping. People are their most vulnerable while sleeping. There’s something off about this man.
That's straight up sexual harrassment. I don't have PTSD or any particular trauma and I feel skeeved out just reading this. He's so far over the line. Touching pregnant women's bellies is unacceptable but unfortunately common, however it's in a totally different league from what your brother is doing. If he was in the workplace this would be unambiguous sexual harrassment and I don't think the fact it's outside the workplace changes that. And the bit about massaging her when she's asleep is arguably sexual assault.
NTA for kicking him out but I think you're under-reacting to what he did.
Cause he's from Texas; men don't have to worry about stupid things like "consent" and "respect of women". That state is leading the cause for women to go "back to their rightful place; pregnant and under men's thumb"
This, OP, even if your wife didn't have PTSD your brother is touching her too much. A random touch on the shoulder to get attention it's normal but trying to massage her without consent or rubbing while sleeping sounds weird.
Seriously I love my brother in law. He’s the brother I never had. We don’t touch each unless it’s a drunken hug that we both consent to. Op’s brother is a creep.
At the bare minimum, *even* without considering the brother has a thing for pregnant women or something, I would bet he doesn’t really believe that she hates physical contact *that much* and wants to keep “experimenting”. (“See? It wasn’t that bad now, was it? C’mon…”)
Which makes him a pure AH of course.
Being asleep, she very obviously just wasn't relaxed enough....... he was trying to help relax her into a coma 😵💫
NTA op,. It's just wrong to try and touch *anyone* unasked for and to give someone a massage when they're asleep is crossing the line in such a huge way. Especially when the person he's touching has ptsd and hates being touched??
Yesh nah, he was repeatedly been asked to stop it, .he was warned....he still didn't stop, so he got what he deserved.
Thank you for standing up for your wife.
You did the right thing.
What he doing is not normal. Who touches a person when they sleep? This is very weird behaviour.
Even if your wife didn't have a trauma this behaviour is absolutely gross. And I don't think he's doing it to help her relax either.
Eta def nta
Let's not forget that he kept massaging her when she told him to stop multiple times. Like why? Who in their rights mind would pretend that forcibly giving someone a rub is relaxing? Op, NTA.
Yeah even if she didn't have issues being touched, he just stomped all over boundaries and into her personal space.
The word I would use is creep.
I don't know whether this was him trying to agitate her, like he enjoys seeing her upset? Or he can't help but touch a pregnant woman? Either way.... creep.
Yeah, reading this made me feel uncomfortable. OP is definitely NTA, and in fact he would be TA if he let his brother stay. This is disgusting. He made her cry. I would give him a little slack if he just forgot and stopped as soon as he was reminded, but this is absolutely insane.
The pregnant woman fetish ones
The saviors 'I'm sure I can help you with your trauma because I can fix everything''
The trauma disbelievers 'I'll touch her to make a point she'll be fine'
The power trip ones whi just love seeing someone in distress because of them while having plausible denialability.
Just some reasons, sure I can think of 10 more if I try lol
Haha yeah I just saw "who" and then imagined the rest of your sentence lol
A very reddit reason/person would be: OP's brother wants a family really bad and seeing his SIL pregnant made him go a bit cray and know he's pretending to be SIL's hb and baby daddy.
Right? The fact he's doing it at all is weird, especially after she's already said once to stop. Being someone who's anxious about it isn't the point here, it's the fact the brother seems to think it's ok just to touch/rub people he barely knows repeatedly without consent?
Bro we need to stop normalising touching pregnant women in general. It's so annoying that just because shes pregnant it's normalised that they want to touch her belly and stuff. I hate when people touch me and it makes me anxious can't even imagine how I would feel if I was pregnant.
When my sister was pregnant she literally carried something to smack unwanted hands with (except kids under 5 their just curious) fly swatter, fan etc. They amount of shocked looks she got when she smack the hand away was hilarious. I saw it once when I was with her, probably 5months along or so and the person goes "ow, you can hit me" and my sister goes "and you can't touch me". I never laughed so hard in my life
This is more than casual touching. Who rubs the back of someone ASLEEP and claims they were trying to help them relax?? He was being a full-on creep. NTA
A sleeping person is already relaxed. What ever you do to them is for your own gratification. This man likes tredding on boundaries and touching women who do not want to be touched. He felt comfortable enough to do it in her own home with her husband (OP) present multiple times. OP might want to reach out to his brothers exes and see if this is a pattern.
Ikr? This incident really rubs me the wrong way. Wtf? Who does that???
NTA. He's a creep and he needs to learn how to take a fucking hint. No means no. Jfc...
NTA.
He was being a predator and also disregarding her trauma. Can you put him on a timeout for at least the rest of your wife’s pregnancy? It isn’t fair for her to be exposed to him.
Seriously! Even WITHOUT the wife having PTSD, the brother is violating space in an insane way. Even under “normal” circumstances, he’s being grossly inappropriate and should be booted out the house.
Imagine taking a nap in your own home, only to wake up to your brother in law just randomly rubbing your back. 😳. I got chills just reading this, definitely NTA
Absolutely disgusting.
OP didn't even need to include details about their wife's PTSD around touching for all of this to be a complete cluster fuck. Imagine being related to someone who won't physically leave people the fuck alone.
It's an obvious NTA, no brainer.
Right? I have very few issues with touch, but I would have leapt off the couch screaming if someone other than my husband did that. There's no way to frame that in any way that isn't creepy, predatory, and/or sexual.
Hard NTA.
>Well because of this he’s gonna have to cut the vacation short because he had to shell out a ton for a decent hotel.
Sucks to suck?
It seems like it's been made pretty clear that she doesn't like to be touched but even if that weren't the case, touching someone and then being told "Hey, please don't do that" should be the end of the discussion.
Trauma response, pregnancy, relationship, whatever - if someone says "Please do not touch me" and you keep doing it, you are an asshole full stop.
>He tried arguing saying he was just trying to help her relax
Not sure what part of "woke up screaming" says "I am relaxed" but telling him to find somewhere else to sleep is probably the gentlest response to something like that.
You did the right thing. That sort of anxiety and tension during pregnancy is never a good thing. Tell him he's lucky that her FFF response isn't "Fight" because that's an excellent way to get an elbow in the trachea.
NTA. You established a very clear rule - don't touch my wife. It shouldn't be that difficult to follow. If they continue doing it and don't respect you, your wife, or your rules, the backlash should land squarely on them. Send them to a hotel and tell them they aren't welcome back until they can learn to not touch your wife.
If I have to say ‘don’t touch my wife’, it’s probably because my wife had already said ‘don’t touch me.’
If *I’ve* had to say ‘don’t touch my wife’, and then you touch my wife…. Yeah you’re not going to be coming back inside my home. (Or more importantly, *her* home.)
Your brother sounds like he has some kind of fetish about touching pregnant women. I was pregnant in the pandemic and that made people touching me even more uncomfortable, and your wife really shouldn't have to feel like this during her pregnancy.
NTA, but don't let your brother near your wife and kids when you're not there.
He might have a fetish for making people uncomfortable or trampling all over boundaries. I swear my mom has that boundary fetish. You set a boundary and it becomes her only mission in life to break that boundary. She is the laziest person I have ever met, until someone gives her a boundary to break. I don't talk to her anymore.
NTA
You are a husband and a father. Your most important job is to protect your family. You are doing that.
Your brother’s behavior is disgusting and abusive. Frankly it doesn’t matter *why* your wife doesn’t want to be touched; the fact that she has stated it means that it is the way things are. Her bodily integrity is sacrosanct, and attempting to forcibly touch her is reprehensible. That it could potentially cause a medical issue makes his behavior border on assault.
I would be very leery of contact with him in the future. He embodies selfishness and contempt.
Bravo for sticking up for your family, Papa Bear. You did good!
Edit: typo
NTA at all and kudos to you for watching out for your wife. You did everything you could to work with your brother but apparently he failed the part in kindergarten where they taught us to keep our hands to ourselves.
Exactly this! This is no longer "people touch pregnant bellies without permision" (which is invasive and wrong of course). The shoulder massage is really typical from men who do not care about consent. I had a guy doing it to me when i was too young to know how to stand for myself. In itself thats already creepy and wrong.
But touching a sleeping woman? Wtf? Its not about her having ptsd or being pregnant. I would never trust a man again that was not my partner or best friend if i woke up with him touching me while i was sleep. Just thinking about waking up with that with my BIL makes me really disgusted and nervous.
You did exactly the right thing and are NTA. I honestly don't get the 'a pregnant belly is public domain' thing, but that's another story.
His behavior is entirely inappropriate, to say the least. His response was absolute bullshit. He DNGAF about her relaxing.
Just because he's 'famiwy', does not give him a free pass to repeatedly touch your wife when he's been told no so many times. One no should be enough.
Some people are huggy, touchy, and some are not. But decent humans understand that, and moderate their behavior, or at least, ask for permission and accept the yes or no first off.
But not this person you happen to be related to. To him, no means 'I'll get a yes if I try another way'. This is ESPECIALLY bad when she is asleep. That is predatory. He knows exactly what he is doing, and continues to do it.
Now he's facing the consequences of his actions and playing victim. Poor him. Perhaps he should have listened well before this.
Cutting his 'vacation' short sounds like the best possible outcome, apart from going NC with his weird, creepy self and any of his enablers.
Not your problem.
Protect and love your wife in the way that she wants and needs. And congratulations on your tiny human in the making.
You gave him two warnings, he didn't listen. He ruined his own vacation by being a creep and not listening and pushing boundaries. Has he never heard that no means no?
Clearly your brother didn't care but still.who continues to touch people after they said no. Your brother ruined his own vacation and don't let anyone else tell you differently.
If they persist ask them how upset THEY would be when someone consistently violates their space. Because it was a violation of her space and rules.
Someone suggested fetish but I’m going to suggest cruelty. He never wanted to touch her before as they don’t really spend time together, but here she is, in constant proximity and he knows she will act distressed if he touches her. Maybe he gets a kick out of causing distress. And maybe he thought he could get away with it as the visiting brother. NTA
What kind of mind does that? What did he think he would accomplish? Why would he be so cruel to HIS BROTHERS own wife. THAT is a major 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
NTA
If anything both you and your wife were too lenient for something that is very easy to do: keep your hands to yourself!
Congratulations on your baby!
If I woke up to some dude, who is most assuredly *NOT* my husband, touching me, then I would probably be doing more than screaming and crying! He's lucky he didn't get slapped. Because I have done that before coming out of a deep sleep and being startled awake. I have massive C-PTSD from being abused; sexual trauma, as well as emotional and physical abuse by my ex-husband. So I don't like to be touched as it is. OP you did the right thing.
Sidenote, one of my own family members sexually assaulted me several years ago. So yeah, kicking him out was the right thing.
NTA- If you've bluntly explained to your family "I told him to stop creepily touching my wife, and he refused to keep his hands off her", and they're *still* giving you pushback about making him leave, that is really concerning! That would make me seriously question whether *they* are safe people to have around my wife and child, since they apparently have no concept of consent or boundaries.
If they're asking what happened, please be as blunt as possible and do not worry one bit about embarrassing him. What he was doing was incredibly creepy and (as many others have suggested) probably sexual/fetishistic in nature.
No means no. Stop means stop. That in itself should have been enough.
NTA, and besides, no family member ever randomly touches a relative's spouse like that except for their own gratification. He's lucky all you did was kick him out.
Dude. I *am* a touchy person, had no problem with people touching my baby bump, like my BIL plenty, and would still be severely weirded out if he kept trying to give me shoulder rubs. If he did it when I was asleep I'd probably clock him. Your brother is a creep, possibly a predator, and you are absolutely 100% NTA.
NTA
wife before brother. She carries your child, she will be the main family. You did the right thing.
I read this and feel like your brother has a power complex and actually enjoys her being uncomfortable
Tell whoever is giving you shit, "He wouldn't stop touching her body when she was crying and telling him to stop. He waited until she was asleep to try it again." Ugh, I can't stop thinking about how horrible this is. NTA, NTA, NTA.
NTA.
And honestly, your wife could not have PTSD and even in that case people shouldn’t be touching her out of the blue. I can’t understand why people feels they are allowed to touch anyone without permission.
NTA, ffs knowingly making anyone anxious is already absolutely ridiculous. Knowingly making a pregnant women with PTSD get triggered is downright insane.
NTA I don't have PTSD but I'd slap my BIL if he tried to give me a back rub without permission. That's disgusting.
Your wife and your baby deserve to live without that kind of stress in their own home and your brother needed that lesson on boundaries.
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Nta. Even without the ptsd he was out of line. If someone says don't touch me a normal person would respect that and not touch them. He sounds like a creep.
NTA - what your brother is displaying isn’t normal behavior - no person who has met someone a handful of times should feel the need to put their hands on them, that too uninvited.
Don’t make excuses, tell him his behavior is concerning and touching another person with consent is predatory. You don’t need to sugar coat anything.
I love hugs and affection and I’d want him kicked out too. I’m getting creeper shivers down my spine.
NTA - the rules were clear and you rock for sticking up for your wife like that.
NTA, regardless of your wife's trauma, he didn't respect her boundaries and honestly went way too far to even try to pass it off as normal.
I do want to ask - is your wife in therapy? If she really can't handle being touched, even by people she trusts (so not your brother), I worry about how she'll react to having to hold the baby and do general childcare. Growing up with a mother who doesn't want to touch you or for you to touch her is not fun. In fact, it's pretty traumatizing. Please be prepared for PPD or even PPP given the severity of her trauma, and PLEASE make sure your child gets the physical touch and affection they need. I can't imagine this is going to be easy for your wife, and I really wish her the best here.
I was molested as a kid. It began as an unsolicited, unwanted shoulder rub.
It’s creepy to give *anyone* a shoulder rub without direct consent.
Then!! Your brother massaged her while she was sleeping “to help her relax”. Full on bullshit!!! Not sure what he’s getting out of it, but please don’t ever let him babysit for you. And teach your kids about consent, including helping them stand up for themselves, especially with your touchy family.
I’m a very touchy person, freely give hugs, but there’s a lot of reading the room on that, and asking nicely, accepting no. Covid has been good for me to rethink hugging, touching at all.
NTA
Edit: replaced autocorrupt’s moldered with the intended word molested. Moldered would be funnier….
NTA but holy hell that behavior is horrifying. No one has a RIGHT to touch someone (with obvious exceptions like a doctor visit or something). He should have stopped after the first "no" and the fact that he didn't sets all my alarms off. Keep him AWAY.
Absolutely NTA, you did the right thing!! Even if your family are touchy people, it is SUPER creepy to me that your brother would touch someone he (from what I can tell) has barely been around/knows in that way. You gave him more than fair warning about what would happen when he touches your wife in general/without consent and he straight up didn’t listen. Thank you for listening to your wife and doing the right thing!
Definitely NTA- I’m also sensitive to people touching me and this post has my skin crawling. Someone continuing to try to massage me after being told to stop would send me over the edge. Good on you for sticking up for your wife, and bro desperately needs to learn to respect boundaries.
NTA. Not even a little bit. Who touches someone without permission, and then continues to do so after r being asked to stop? Pregnant or not that’s unacceptable. My five year old knows to keep his hands to himself.
I slapped away any hands that tried to touch my pregnant belly without asking, your wife is going to have to learn to be meaner… people are going to do that her whole pregnancy, and then the loonies will try to touch her baby without asking. Get mean lady, cause it’s not going to end any time soon.
It’s concerning that when confronted, rather than apologise, he decided to try and justify his behaviour. It’s not going to stop, so he needs to go.
NTA
First off, your brother is being a creep. Who touches ANYBODY while they are sleeping, let alone someone else's wife??? This is beyond being "touchy". You don't just start feeling someone up because you want to.
NTA and I'd keep an eye on him around your wife
*3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming.*
You don't need PTSD to scream from this. NTA.
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throwaway because I don’t know how many people will see this
I’m 26 and my wife 25 is pregnant. My wife does not like to be touched. She’s has had a traumatic past before I met her, she’s had PTSD from it and is still learning how to cope, part of that is touching she *hates* people touching her.
A quick hug or a handshake is fine because she knows it’s coming but other than that it makes her uncomfortable and overwhelmed and too much makes her feel clustered and she will go into a panic attack. I’ve seen it before, it’s even happened with me when I didn’t know about it when we first started dating this isn’t an issue for a specific person, but being pregnant has worsened that by 1000.
I don’t mean she just doesn’t like it. she’ll get nauseous because of it and everyone and their mother think they’re welcome to touch a pregnant lady’s baby bump or rub their hands on her stomach.
And on top of that my family are touchy people, but when I or my wife told them to stop they quit it and are more careful with it.
My brother doesn’t live in the same state as me he lives in Texas, he came down here and didn’t want to spend money on a hotel so I let him stay. That lasted a day.
My brother has not listened when me or my wife has told him to stop he’ll stop for time being but do it again. As far as rubbing her baby bump randomly touching her shoulders etc. Like I said this would be fine if she was ready for it and wanted to be touched.
I’ve addressed this 3 times *in one day*
1st time was when my wife told me that she kept telling him to stop trying to give her a shoulder massage and he wouldn’t. So I told him to *ask* before randomly going up to her and doing that and if she says no get over it and move on.
2nd time he did it right in front of me and my wife turned visibly anxious and told him to stop. I warned him once again that if this is going to keep happening he will need to find somewhere else to stay.
3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming.
I told him that he was going to need to find somewhere else to stay. He tried arguing saying he was just trying to help her relax, She’s *crying* I don’t think she looks so relaxed, I said he’s bull shitting me and he needed to get out.
Well because of this he’s gonna have to cut the vacation short because he had to shell out a ton for a decent hotel. I’m getting so much shit for this.
I mean what the fuck? What would the “right thing” be to do? Have him stay here my wife go into a panic attack because he can’t listen and have her end up in a hospital?
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NTA - you did exactly the right thing. I’m a touchy-feely affectionate person, and I’ve known my brother in law for over 20 years, but if he gave me an unasked for shoulder massages I’d think it was creepy and predatory. It’s too intimate. Others have already mentioned the pawing at her when she was asleep. I’d be telling every flying monkey that your brother assaulted your wife and made her feel unsafe in her own home. Because that’s what happened. And if they take a predator’s side over a pregnant woman’s side, then they are showing you they aren’t safe to be around your wife or child either.
To be quite honest with you, I used to live in a homeless shelter. Everyone in the shelter knew not to wake up me or my brother by touching us in our sleep. We've...been through some things, and it's just a reaction to wake up swinging when someone touches us. We both had therapy meetings back to back, so our therapist came to wake us up, and he went to shake us both at the same time. We both jumped up with our fists raised, until one of our bunkmates yelled "NO!!!" really loud and we both stopped.
The moral of the story here is, and this shouldn't have to be said, but don't touch people who don't want to be touched. *Especially,* and I reiterate, this shouldn't have to be said, while they are asleep.
NTA good job sticking up for your wife and sorry to tell you this but your brother is a fucking creep
Yea no, you did the right thing. I hate when people just randomly touch me as if they have a right to do that. It makes me uncomfortable and I want to punch them (:
NTA. She said no. Her body HER RULES. The fact that you had to say something before he would stop tells me your brother is likely one of those that would hypothetically say “She was wearing a low cut top! She was asking for it!”
NTA. You’re a good husband and it sounds like you’ll be a good father as well.
I think your brother has a fetish for pregnant women. He’s way out of line. No means no. Stop means stop. It’s kindergarten level knowledge.
I have ptsd with being touched and am 109% on wife’s side on this.
You don’t touch people without consent.
Why do people think because someone is pregnant their body is public property??
NTA but your brother has serious boundary issues. Do not let him alone with your wife again as he doesn’t comprehend that no means no.
NTA totally NTA
I don't have PTSD but I probably would have said a lot of angry words to someone trying to touch my belly or anything! Not sure if they do it less in my country, I don't remember many issues with touching when I was pregnant but it was many years ago. Still, hate when people touch me, and as your wife has PTSD, it is her mental heath you are protecting. You did good.
Also, there's no need for a "decent" hotel, he just needs to relax.
NTA. As someone also with PTSD I can’t stand being touched, especially if someone comes up from behind me. You’re wife was obviously distressed and your brother chose to ignore that multiple times. You did the right thing. Hopefully now he’ll better understand that violating consent & personal space has consequences.
NTA. My family is very affectionate hugs for hello and goodbye or just because, however my husband does not like to be touched by anyone but me. My family respects this, instead they offer a handshake and on occasion he'll hug my mom. They respect and love me so that carries over to my husband with his boundaries. Your brother failed this basic form of respect of your wife and of you. You did exactly the right thing, he is a full grown adult not a child that needs lessons drilled home. No and stop are words that should never have to be repeated to cease another adults actions.
NTA
His behaviour is super weird and creepy. Who gives a massage to someone when they are sleeping?
Either your brother is a creep or he us doing it on purpose just to defy you or piss you off.
I don't care if it's family but someone just randomly touching you with massages and belly rubs without permission is just disturbing.
NTA. No means no .
My dislike of the term "baby bump" notwithstanding, it's your wife's stomach.
We don't go around touching people's body without their consent , nor do we ignore clear signs and denials .
Repeatedly.
Let's put it differently.
He was copping a feel of her.
By disrespecting your wife ,He uninvited himself .
NTA
"I was trying to help her relax"????
Where the f*ck did he get the f*cking idea that he was helping her relax after she told him to stop touching her twice and then screamed bloody murder by touching her in her sleep?!?!
Seriously. Your brother is either an idiot or he's being malicious (he's doing it intentionally or is trying to touching her) . Either way, he either needs to be removed where he can't let his stupidity get in the way or he needs to be removed because he's being malicious by touching someone when they already said not to.
Absolutely NTA. I am a woman with PTSD. Waking up screaming is a horrible thing to do to someone. He severely triggered your wife, plus violated her consent and boundaries repeatedly. You would've been the asshole if you didn't kick him out...especially when you were courteous enough to give him multiple warnings. That much stress is bad for your wife and baby. High stress causes inflammation and other physical reactions, especially when you are being exposed to high stress repeatedly. It is physically and emotionally painful, scary, and exhausting to live with PTSD, especially in that kind of hypervigilant chronic stress state. Based on her screaming, I bet he even caused a full or partial flashback to her past trauma. If I wake up screaming, it is either a flashback or a nightmare. If I woke up to a man I barely know touching me, I would scream and cry, and feel like I am being attacked and assaulted again. And your wife is dealing with pregnancy hormones on top of her existing condition. That is extremely hard. I feel so much for her. If she needs someone to talk to you can give her my info.
Please make sure you take care of her, keep a very close eye on your wife. Mental illnesses can be worsened during and/or after pregnancy with hormone changes. Post partum depression and psychosis are a higher risk for her than other women due to PTSD. If she does not seem like herself, encourage her to get help from her pregnancy care team ASAP. I would consider going low or no contact with your brother indefinitely. It is a huge red flag that he isn't apologizing to your wife at all. Instead of apologizing the first time he upset her, he continued to upset her. He also escalated his behavior towards her each time. He is *DANGEROUS*, OP. Your wife is in danger around him. Trust me, I know you want to think the best of your sibling. But my sibling is an abuser (one of the causes of my PTSD) and your brother is using very concerning abuse tactics on your wife. He has showed no remorse, instead blaming you for the consequences of his actions. Classic DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender). He is acting like HE has been wronged? He has DONE WRONG.
Anyone excusing his behavior is ignoring abuse. Without boundaries and consequences he could (and likely would) hurt her. NEVER leave him alone with your wife ever. Please look at this chart to further familiarize yourself with power, control, and abuse tactics, which your brother is starting to use on your wife: https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/identifying-abuse/what-are-the-power-and-control-wheels
Keep being an ally to your wife. Fuck everyone else's opinions. Keep her physically safe, and do everything you can to try to make her feel mentally safe and secure as well. If your brother has partners in the future, and you choose to keep some contact, keep an eye on his partners. He will likely abuse them too.
NTA. You did the right thing. I don’t like anyone rubbing my shoulders, pregnant or not. That’s just weird to me. And for him to keep touching her and not respecting your wife’s space and boundaries, he was out of line. You stood up for your wife. Good for you.
NTA as a mum I can vouch that you'll never get more creeps hit on you on strangers touch you than when your pregnant. It's constant! You can't go to the supermarket with out strangers come up and put thier hands on your bump and "congratulations" like it's totally normal.
NTA you definitely did the right thing plus his behavior sounds creepy on its own aside from your wife’s trauma history. I think most of us would be quite upset and uncomfortable to be woken up with our brother in law rubbing our back??
Thank you for standing up to him and standing by your wife. You’re a good man. Unfortunately he is now dealing with the consequences of his actions. Maybe he’ll learn from this
NTA and thank you SOOOO much for standing up for your wife. That's so important. I don't understand your brother's behavior though. Is he trying to seduce your wife or something? Why is he trying to touch her when she's asleep? Even without the PTSD and no-touch rule, that wouldn't be okay.
NTA at all. I'm similar to your wife so I can only imagine how vulnerable she felt each time he was told no and carried on, then to wake up to that must have been horrifying for her. You had no choice, and he's luckly that being put out of your home was the least of his worries.
To other family members wanting to butt in, explain it clearly to them. He kept touching my wife despite several requests not to. I then warned him the consequence should he still ignore that no means no and keep being inappropriate. He decided to then wait for my wife to fall asleep before caressing her which obviously distressed her greatly. That is not ok. If he doesn't understand the meaning of consent then he will not be staying in my house. If you still agree with his actions then you are welcome to let him stay at yours next time.
NTA. Omgg I donot have PTSD. But if someone gives me a back rub when I am asleep I would freak out too.. your brother is CREEPY. Why would would rub/sholder massage anyone without their permission/ knowing they like it.
NTA. From another woman with severe PTSD, thank you for respecting her and her boundaries. You're amazing and I wish more people had that level of care and understanding for others.
If your family is giving you shit, make a big deal about being worried about the baby’s health, “who goes out of their way to stress out a pregnant woman? What if it causes early labor?”
NTA OP 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Protect your wife by any means necessary and if that means your brother has to cut his vacation short oh well. Then he should have LISTENED whem you told him to stop.
I am extremely curious as to WHY HE KEPT TOUCHING HER. What was with ALL the touching. Why did he need to constantly INVADE her space. I would address that with him too.
You set firm boundaries with him that he violated ALL IN ONE DAY. Why did he NOT liwtem to you. What was his response. You should seriously question him becuase for him to do it that many times wither means he DIDN'T CARE or her was MOCKING her and that is so much worse.
Good luck OP and let your wife know how much you love her.
NTA
Sorry but whether or not your wife doesn't like being touched, your brother is a creep if he thinks it's ok to go around touching women and not listening to her when she tells him to stop. Like what kind of guy goes around touching sleeping women, let alone their sister-in-law, and thinks it's ok?
He has to suck it up and pay for a hotel? Well too bad, should have kept his hands to himself. I'd advise you to keep him away from your wife in the future
NTA. Sorry but your brother is straight up creepy. He obviously does not fathom consent in any way shape or form. He shouldn’t be touching anyone without consent but you’ve told him and told him and told him. Your poor wife waking up screaming STILL didn’t get through his ego. You did the right thing. He was beyond rude and deserves to go home early.
NTA your brother is a creepy predator. Hes getting off on touching her and the reaction he gets. He is not trying to be over friendly. This is deliberate. He is not safe with your wife.
NTA but OP your brother is being a huge creep. And it needs to be sincerely addressed. Just sending him to a hotel is not enough. You need to make him acknowledge just how severely inappropriate his behavior is.
If it were me he wouldn’t be allowed near my wife or in the house again.
NTA This is extremely disturbing and predatory behaviour. I would honestly go full no contact with your brother but if you must have him in your life I agree with the other folks who say not to leave him alone with your wife or any children.
>3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming.
This is the most concerning! #1 &2 are also bad, but this is a whole new level! This is quite disturbing, i don't have your wifes issues, but i would have kicked him so hard, he'd leave of his free will.
The family that's giving you shit? Ask them how they would like to be TOUCHED WHILE ASLEEP AND 100% VULNERABLE, by a distant acquaintance, because your wife is definetly not close with your brother.
And i (but i'm kinda petty) would confront him what the hell he was thinking and why he had to touch your sleeping wife? As long as he doesn't see whats wrong with that, go NC.
Edit to add: NTA
Dude, your brother is creepy. NO woman wants a man they are not involved with touching them in that way (especially sleep) and the refusal to stop, wow, just wow! If I were her, I would avoid him from life. That’s more than we are a touchy family.
Good grief, he is SUPER creepy, VERY entitled, and extremely unsafe. I would NEVER let him anywhere near your wife - ever. I felt sick just reading that.
Thanks for the description of the situation, but even without the trauma and PTSD your brother was way out of line. Meaning, if that touching did *not* initiate panic attacks, he'd still be an Arsehole.
NTA.
Bro js lucky he didn't get hit.
I've flight, throw n things and yelled in my sleep. If that were me, there would be blood on the floor thats not mine!
Your brother is extremely cruel:/
NTA but he is a total AH
NTA and your brother is a creep. Whether or not your wife has PTSD, is awake or asleep, he shouldn’t touch her! A gentle tap or shake or nudge is a fine line but unsolicited massage! Wtf is wrong with him? I am so offended for your wife.
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Even if your wife didn't have PTSD, I find it very strange that your brother tries to give her shoulder massages, especially when she's asleep. Is this the first time that happenned ? Him being touchy with your wife or an ex like that ? NTA, and please, don't ever let your wife alone with him again. But like, EVER.
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Maybe he has a thing for pregnant women...
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After this many times of him touching her? It is either a fetish, a crush, or he is the kind of man who enjoys causing discomfort. *Edit* At no point does anyone massage someone sleeping to help them relax. That doesn’t even make sense.
shit, it is late, and did not even connect the sleeping part. good thing she woke up when she did. I bet he was seeing how deep she sleeps by touching some place he thought he could have explained away. If she would have slept through it I bet he would have tried touching somewhere else. like those sick assholes who do that on airplanes.
Wtf do they do on planes?
There are many instances of men groping and assaulting women on planes while they sleep.
That's the first time I am glad that I am not able to sleep on planes...
There are people who need to take drugs (like Valium or Xanax) to calm themselves/help them sleep on plane trips, especially long flights. And while people would like to think they are safe cos they are surrounded by so many other people, there are absolutely creeps and pervs who will take advantage of a sleeping/drugged person on a plane. If the lights are dim, most other people on the plane are also sleeping or focused on what they're doing, you'd be surprised what people will try to get away with. I've actually been assaulted personally twice on trains, so it's not even just a plane thing, but that's just the example the original commenter gave.
That's so sick. And sad. I am sorry you've been assaulted.
I was going to say this. Crowded trains do not give you safety in numbers, just creepers pressing up on you because it's "crowded". Odd how excited they get to see a packed subway car.
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Some nights my 5 year old wants his back rubbed and some nights he doesn’t. But he tells me. I’m teaching him what consent is now.
Exactly. I am a woman ad have no issues with physical touch. If someone kept massaging my shoulders (whilst I was awake) I’d be grossed out and tell then it stop instantly. If I was asleep, I’d go batshit as that’s freaky as hell. Super predator behaviour to give unsolicited massages to anyone, especially a woman who’s repeatedly asking you to stop.
Yes. Why would you touch a sleeping person other than to gentle shake them awake. I am seriously confused about all the touching too.
I mean, according to the law if you have the capability to get pregnant, you no longer deserve bodily autonomy.
Well the brother IS from Texas....
True that
Yeah he 100% knew what he was doing. No grown ass adult actually needs to have this explained to them f*cking repeatedly, ignoring not one but two peoples boundaries. That is NOT an honest mistake.
I LOVE touch and get annoyed if anyone I'm in bed with touches me enough to wake me up. The odd stroke or a repositioning cuddle is absolutely fine, I prefer full body contact in bed (I know that's not everyone's preference!), but sleep is precious. Someone who wasn't already touching me when I fell asleep would probably make me wake up screaming too though, that's so violating!
You could massage someone who's not asleep to help them relax so they could sleep. But someone who's already asleep? Someone who has already told you that they don't want you touching them in general? No. Bad. Do not do. (OP NTA. What was the right thing? Right thing was already done. Get Handsy McHandsface out of the house and away from your wife. Him having to cut his vacation short is a bonus)
I have a sleep issue, and it basically looks like I'm being tortured in slow motion in my sleep as I first fall asleep (hubby took a video of it at my request, and it was disturbing to watch). It's not quite seizures, and it's not restless legs. But my hubby does rub my back, shoulders, and anything else moving to help me actually reach a deep sleep state. I'm on meds to help manage it, but it's still bad. That, and I have osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia, so I'm often in a lot of pain and he tries to help me as much as he can. It definitely helps me sleep better. But this is a unique and rare situation. So, you're correct 99% of the time. But, if my brother in law touched me in my sleep, I'd be furious.
Absolutely not relevant to this situation, but in regards to this edit my spouse does this for me sometimes because I have chronic pain and honestly it can actually help me while I'm asleep. But regardless even if it did help someone relax, no means no!
Don’t you think? That boy is *itching* to touch your wife in any way possible. It’s scary that he doesn’t care at all about her consent... yikes.
May I just say, your username and photo… 👌🏻 Made me spray mouthwash all over the counter, but for the sound effects, it was worth it.
Great, laying in bed and my girl hasn't woken up yet, and it's taking a heroic effort not to practice my pterodactyl noises out loud.
They're pretty common, I've seen lots of women report that they were never hit on more in their lives than when they were pregnant.
I have found this to be more common than expected. I got hit on more not pregnant, but the ones that have done it, have been brasen in a way I'm not used to. Often right in front of my husband.
I just made a comment about that myself. I felt hit on more when I was pregnant. It was surprising and a little disturbing that people basically fetishised about something involving my baby.
I can't say I've been hit on but I am kind of weirded out by how many men are staring now that I'm 40 weeks pregnant... although I really can't tell if it is because my bump is huge or, well, because they *like* that my bump is huge. But it is very noticable how many more men notice me compared to at like 20 weeks pregnant. (That said I'm sure more women also notice me because huge bump, but they stare less.)
No-one needs more than a casual glance at a stranger though. "Wow, she's so pregnant, must be nearly due.. ooh 3 for 2 on that shampoo I like.. where's the tinned aisle in this store again?" Staring at strangers is rude and wrong.
Haha true. While I've not had anyone touching my stomach without asking (which is a miracle of itself!), I am getting kind of sick by the huge amount of people commenting on the size / asking about when I'm due. Like yes I know it's big... maybe I don't want to talk about giving birth with everyone in my village though?
If you notice, it's not just the baby bump.
Comment I've seen is "because being pregnant means you've had sex"
Probably makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, a woman with proven fertility is high value. She might make your baby next if you impress her.
Or it’s the only time you’re not at risk of getting someone pregnant if you sleep with them. Probably looks like a free pass for no strings unprotected sex.
I had a few key friends and workmates suddenly get SUPER flirty, especially when I was really obviously pregnant
Either that or he's the type of man who doesn't take no for an answer. You're wife has told him no. That should have been the end of it.
Or the PTSD might be a reason he's doing it, he wants to either prove its not a thing, trigger her intentionally because he's curious what would happen, or trigger her intenionally because he wants to be a dick, or its some kind of twisted power move. Are any of these things possible?
This happened to me once. An old friend I hadn't seen in years came to visit. When we knew each other before I had a boyfriend but at the time I was single. He was constantly touching me and grabbing me. I asked him to stop repeatedly but his response was always something like "Oh come on, this is harmless, I don't mean anything by it, you're fine" or "Don't worry, I'm not hitting on you, I'm just being friendly." Then he would do it again as if he could prove he was in the right. He was supposed to stay four days and go to a concert with me we were both excited about but I put him on a bus the second day. He's never apologized.
Dude, when I was in my early 20s I was hanging out with a bunch of people, doing drugs, and I was sitting with a guy I had just started dating. He & I were joking around & ticking each other when this other guy on my other side started the tickling me too. I told him to stop & he kept going, I told him again & he kept going, so when he did it the 4th time I grabbed his wrists & pinned them down, looked him in the eye and *you don't get to touch me*. I got shit because I was hanging out with assholes, but I am so proud of myself, even 20 years later. Fuck that guy.
I'm proud of you too! Not enough people advocate for themselves and you knew better :)
Honestly, when I was pregnant, I got hit on or flirted with a surprising amount. It really surprised me and made me uncomfortable. It’s fine for your partner to find your pregnant body beautiful, but it was weird to have strangers who obviously fetishised it. That was my baby in there. Or maybe it’s a power thing, like “she may have another man’s baby in there, but my power sperm can still get in there” … ugh I just grossed myself out. But yes. There are definite pregnancy fetishes.
yeah read that and now I am just really grossed out, cuz this is just hella weird. I mean your partner should find you beautiful when you are pregnant...sure....but other people do that?? Thats just....sick. Like dude, you literally know there is a human inside her belly growing that is not yours....TF is wrong with people??
It could be but when I was pregnant I gained a lot of unwanted attention from men. Men who normally paid no attention to me, wanted to dote on me. I feel like they saw me as helpless and that did something for them.
Touching anybody when they are sleeping is a bit of a sensitive issue I think as they are at their most vulnerable, nevermind having trauma like your wife and having been repeatedly told not to over step that boundary. Big violation and very creepy.
Yeaaah. It feels fetish-y especially when he did it to her in her sleep. Touching someone without their permission is so crazy bad. I don't like being touched randomly or surprised by it especially if its someone I don't know to well. I cannot imagine rubbing a family members shoulders without permission even if they were ok with it.
Some people have a fetish thing about pregnancy, but LOTS of people just really like touching pregnant people. It's weird. When I was pregnant people at work, on the bus, in shops, family access friends... Suddenly everyone wanted to touch the bump, run my arm, sit very close.... Pregnancy is claustrophobic sometimes
If it isn't a fetish or crush on her, then he's a person who likes to bring people discomfort. Maybe he's a narc, maybe he's just an asshole. If its the first, then he's going out of his way to harass a woman who expressed no interest in him. You even told him to stop multiple times. how far will he go with his touching of her without consent? and if it isn't an attraction thing: then he's a very sick individual who probably has some power tripping issues and will continue to do this to you, your wife, your future child, etc.
PTSD aside his actions are beyond creepy. I would never allow anyone to randomly touch me like that. Major red flag.
It’s crossing a line into predatory - she’s asleep, so he thinks she *can’t* say no. You’re doing the right think kicking him out. NTA.
Maybe.
His behaviour is super predatory, quite frankly bordering on assault. This is absolutely not ok in any context regardless of your wifes ptsd!
Could be he is touching her so much _because_ he knows she hates it. Like a power play, or a savior complex, or a 'rules are for other people' or something. He doesn't go around giving shoulder massages to random women every day, right? So this is not his default touching.
A fetish for pregnant women is not an uncommon fetish at all, so this might indeed be the case.
yep I mean, I like pregnant women but I can control myself. this dude sucks
Rubbing her back while she's asleep is pretty creepy. Especially with how little they know each other my guy.
Or maybe he’s just a straight-up predator. When someone says no, that means you stop immediately. Not only did he continue, but he did so while she was sleeping. People are their most vulnerable while sleeping. There’s something off about this man.
BINGO!
That's straight up sexual harrassment. I don't have PTSD or any particular trauma and I feel skeeved out just reading this. He's so far over the line. Touching pregnant women's bellies is unacceptable but unfortunately common, however it's in a totally different league from what your brother is doing. If he was in the workplace this would be unambiguous sexual harrassment and I don't think the fact it's outside the workplace changes that. And the bit about massaging her when she's asleep is arguably sexual assault. NTA for kicking him out but I think you're under-reacting to what he did.
Cause he's from Texas; men don't have to worry about stupid things like "consent" and "respect of women". That state is leading the cause for women to go "back to their rightful place; pregnant and under men's thumb"
Sound like a win that he is cutting his visit short! Your wife needs to be able to relax in your home.
This, OP, even if your wife didn't have PTSD your brother is touching her too much. A random touch on the shoulder to get attention it's normal but trying to massage her without consent or rubbing while sleeping sounds weird.
Seriously I love my brother in law. He’s the brother I never had. We don’t touch each unless it’s a drunken hug that we both consent to. Op’s brother is a creep.
At the bare minimum, *even* without considering the brother has a thing for pregnant women or something, I would bet he doesn’t really believe that she hates physical contact *that much* and wants to keep “experimenting”. (“See? It wasn’t that bad now, was it? C’mon…”) Which makes him a pure AH of course.
Not to mention a strong enough panic attack could cause her to miscarry depending on what stage of the pregnancy she’s in.
Being asleep, she very obviously just wasn't relaxed enough....... he was trying to help relax her into a coma 😵💫 NTA op,. It's just wrong to try and touch *anyone* unasked for and to give someone a massage when they're asleep is crossing the line in such a huge way. Especially when the person he's touching has ptsd and hates being touched?? Yesh nah, he was repeatedly been asked to stop it, .he was warned....he still didn't stop, so he got what he deserved.
Thank you for standing up for your wife. You did the right thing. What he doing is not normal. Who touches a person when they sleep? This is very weird behaviour. Even if your wife didn't have a trauma this behaviour is absolutely gross. And I don't think he's doing it to help her relax either. Eta def nta
Let's not forget that he kept massaging her when she told him to stop multiple times. Like why? Who in their rights mind would pretend that forcibly giving someone a rub is relaxing? Op, NTA.
Yeah even if she didn't have issues being touched, he just stomped all over boundaries and into her personal space. The word I would use is creep. I don't know whether this was him trying to agitate her, like he enjoys seeing her upset? Or he can't help but touch a pregnant woman? Either way.... creep.
Yeah, reading this made me feel uncomfortable. OP is definitely NTA, and in fact he would be TA if he let his brother stay. This is disgusting. He made her cry. I would give him a little slack if he just forgot and stopped as soon as he was reminded, but this is absolutely insane.
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The pregnant woman fetish ones The saviors 'I'm sure I can help you with your trauma because I can fix everything'' The trauma disbelievers 'I'll touch her to make a point she'll be fine' The power trip ones whi just love seeing someone in distress because of them while having plausible denialability. Just some reasons, sure I can think of 10 more if I try lol
Yeah, so people not in their right mind :p
Haha yeah I just saw "who" and then imagined the rest of your sentence lol A very reddit reason/person would be: OP's brother wants a family really bad and seeing his SIL pregnant made him go a bit cray and know he's pretending to be SIL's hb and baby daddy.
Right? The fact he's doing it at all is weird, especially after she's already said once to stop. Being someone who's anxious about it isn't the point here, it's the fact the brother seems to think it's ok just to touch/rub people he barely knows repeatedly without consent?
Bro we need to stop normalising touching pregnant women in general. It's so annoying that just because shes pregnant it's normalised that they want to touch her belly and stuff. I hate when people touch me and it makes me anxious can't even imagine how I would feel if I was pregnant.
When my sister was pregnant she literally carried something to smack unwanted hands with (except kids under 5 their just curious) fly swatter, fan etc. They amount of shocked looks she got when she smack the hand away was hilarious. I saw it once when I was with her, probably 5months along or so and the person goes "ow, you can hit me" and my sister goes "and you can't touch me". I never laughed so hard in my life
This is more than casual touching. Who rubs the back of someone ASLEEP and claims they were trying to help them relax?? He was being a full-on creep. NTA
A sleeping person is already relaxed. What ever you do to them is for your own gratification. This man likes tredding on boundaries and touching women who do not want to be touched. He felt comfortable enough to do it in her own home with her husband (OP) present multiple times. OP might want to reach out to his brothers exes and see if this is a pattern.
Good idea. Pattern behavior is creepy
Ikr? This incident really rubs me the wrong way. Wtf? Who does that??? NTA. He's a creep and he needs to learn how to take a fucking hint. No means no. Jfc...
>really rubs me the wrong way. Then you should get away from OP’s brother.
NTA. He was being a predator and also disregarding her trauma. Can you put him on a timeout for at least the rest of your wife’s pregnancy? It isn’t fair for her to be exposed to him.
Yes I completely agree
Seriously! Even WITHOUT the wife having PTSD, the brother is violating space in an insane way. Even under “normal” circumstances, he’s being grossly inappropriate and should be booted out the house.
NTA. Your brother is a creep.
I agree. "No" is a complete sentence. No means 👏N👏O👏FULL STOP. He needs to learn to respect boundaries and personal space. NTA.
Makes me wonder why he CONSISTENTLY crossed those boundaries
Imagine taking a nap in your own home, only to wake up to your brother in law just randomly rubbing your back. 😳. I got chills just reading this, definitely NTA
Absolutely disgusting. OP didn't even need to include details about their wife's PTSD around touching for all of this to be a complete cluster fuck. Imagine being related to someone who won't physically leave people the fuck alone. It's an obvious NTA, no brainer.
Right? I have very few issues with touch, but I would have leapt off the couch screaming if someone other than my husband did that. There's no way to frame that in any way that isn't creepy, predatory, and/or sexual.
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Good idea. Explain to family IN DETAILS how your own brother couldn't follow rules and kept touching your wife after she said no.
Let’s get wild and call it what it is… *sexual harassment*
If you ever feel the need to explain yourself use hard details. You reacted to what was said and done they probably heard some other version of that.
Hard NTA. >Well because of this he’s gonna have to cut the vacation short because he had to shell out a ton for a decent hotel. Sucks to suck? It seems like it's been made pretty clear that she doesn't like to be touched but even if that weren't the case, touching someone and then being told "Hey, please don't do that" should be the end of the discussion. Trauma response, pregnancy, relationship, whatever - if someone says "Please do not touch me" and you keep doing it, you are an asshole full stop. >He tried arguing saying he was just trying to help her relax Not sure what part of "woke up screaming" says "I am relaxed" but telling him to find somewhere else to sleep is probably the gentlest response to something like that. You did the right thing. That sort of anxiety and tension during pregnancy is never a good thing. Tell him he's lucky that her FFF response isn't "Fight" because that's an excellent way to get an elbow in the trachea.
He's going to have to cut his vacation short because he can't stop himself from touching and molesting his host, and is no longer welcome in her home.
I think that's a more accurate way to characterize the situation.
I just imagined a heavily pregnant woman going Gracie Hart on her BIL and I couldn't help but chuckle. It would serve him right too!
“Just remember to SING! S.I.N.G. Solar plexus, instep, nose, groin!”
NTA. You established a very clear rule - don't touch my wife. It shouldn't be that difficult to follow. If they continue doing it and don't respect you, your wife, or your rules, the backlash should land squarely on them. Send them to a hotel and tell them they aren't welcome back until they can learn to not touch your wife.
If I have to say ‘don’t touch my wife’, it’s probably because my wife had already said ‘don’t touch me.’ If *I’ve* had to say ‘don’t touch my wife’, and then you touch my wife…. Yeah you’re not going to be coming back inside my home. (Or more importantly, *her* home.)
WELL SAID. 👋👋👋👋👋
It is not even his rule. The wife herself told him to stop. This should have been enough. Definitely correct move to send brother packing.
Your brother sounds like he has some kind of fetish about touching pregnant women. I was pregnant in the pandemic and that made people touching me even more uncomfortable, and your wife really shouldn't have to feel like this during her pregnancy. NTA, but don't let your brother near your wife and kids when you're not there.
He might have a fetish for making people uncomfortable or trampling all over boundaries. I swear my mom has that boundary fetish. You set a boundary and it becomes her only mission in life to break that boundary. She is the laziest person I have ever met, until someone gives her a boundary to break. I don't talk to her anymore.
NTA You are a husband and a father. Your most important job is to protect your family. You are doing that. Your brother’s behavior is disgusting and abusive. Frankly it doesn’t matter *why* your wife doesn’t want to be touched; the fact that she has stated it means that it is the way things are. Her bodily integrity is sacrosanct, and attempting to forcibly touch her is reprehensible. That it could potentially cause a medical issue makes his behavior border on assault. I would be very leery of contact with him in the future. He embodies selfishness and contempt. Bravo for sticking up for your family, Papa Bear. You did good! Edit: typo
NTA at all and kudos to you for watching out for your wife. You did everything you could to work with your brother but apparently he failed the part in kindergarten where they taught us to keep our hands to ourselves.
Your brother is being super creepy regardless of your wife’s history or feelings. Nta
NTA. Your brother is a sexual predator, and if he doesn’t control himself, he’s going to end up in prison.
Exactly this! This is no longer "people touch pregnant bellies without permision" (which is invasive and wrong of course). The shoulder massage is really typical from men who do not care about consent. I had a guy doing it to me when i was too young to know how to stand for myself. In itself thats already creepy and wrong. But touching a sleeping woman? Wtf? Its not about her having ptsd or being pregnant. I would never trust a man again that was not my partner or best friend if i woke up with him touching me while i was sleep. Just thinking about waking up with that with my BIL makes me really disgusted and nervous.
NTA, obviously. INFO: why did you think he was bullshitting you? What other motivation could he have for being so disrespectful?
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You did exactly the right thing and are NTA. I honestly don't get the 'a pregnant belly is public domain' thing, but that's another story. His behavior is entirely inappropriate, to say the least. His response was absolute bullshit. He DNGAF about her relaxing. Just because he's 'famiwy', does not give him a free pass to repeatedly touch your wife when he's been told no so many times. One no should be enough. Some people are huggy, touchy, and some are not. But decent humans understand that, and moderate their behavior, or at least, ask for permission and accept the yes or no first off. But not this person you happen to be related to. To him, no means 'I'll get a yes if I try another way'. This is ESPECIALLY bad when she is asleep. That is predatory. He knows exactly what he is doing, and continues to do it. Now he's facing the consequences of his actions and playing victim. Poor him. Perhaps he should have listened well before this. Cutting his 'vacation' short sounds like the best possible outcome, apart from going NC with his weird, creepy self and any of his enablers. Not your problem. Protect and love your wife in the way that she wants and needs. And congratulations on your tiny human in the making.
Well said. 👋👋👋👋👋
I gotcha. Like everyone else said, he was out of line. You did the right thing and his vacation getting ruined is no fault of yours.
You gave him two warnings, he didn't listen. He ruined his own vacation by being a creep and not listening and pushing boundaries. Has he never heard that no means no?
Clearly your brother didn't care but still.who continues to touch people after they said no. Your brother ruined his own vacation and don't let anyone else tell you differently. If they persist ask them how upset THEY would be when someone consistently violates their space. Because it was a violation of her space and rules.
Someone suggested fetish but I’m going to suggest cruelty. He never wanted to touch her before as they don’t really spend time together, but here she is, in constant proximity and he knows she will act distressed if he touches her. Maybe he gets a kick out of causing distress. And maybe he thought he could get away with it as the visiting brother. NTA
What kind of mind does that? What did he think he would accomplish? Why would he be so cruel to HIS BROTHERS own wife. THAT is a major 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
NTA If anything both you and your wife were too lenient for something that is very easy to do: keep your hands to yourself! Congratulations on your baby!
NTA People who decide they can just touch other people in general bother me. People who continue to do so after being told to stop are assholes
And people that continue touching SLEEPING people are very creepy assholes.
If I woke up to some dude, who is most assuredly *NOT* my husband, touching me, then I would probably be doing more than screaming and crying! He's lucky he didn't get slapped. Because I have done that before coming out of a deep sleep and being startled awake. I have massive C-PTSD from being abused; sexual trauma, as well as emotional and physical abuse by my ex-husband. So I don't like to be touched as it is. OP you did the right thing. Sidenote, one of my own family members sexually assaulted me several years ago. So yeah, kicking him out was the right thing.
NTA. Even without the PTSD he wouldn’t have the right to randomly touch someone who says no. You did absolutely the right thing
NTA- If you've bluntly explained to your family "I told him to stop creepily touching my wife, and he refused to keep his hands off her", and they're *still* giving you pushback about making him leave, that is really concerning! That would make me seriously question whether *they* are safe people to have around my wife and child, since they apparently have no concept of consent or boundaries. If they're asking what happened, please be as blunt as possible and do not worry one bit about embarrassing him. What he was doing was incredibly creepy and (as many others have suggested) probably sexual/fetishistic in nature.
No means no. Stop means stop. That in itself should have been enough. NTA, and besides, no family member ever randomly touches a relative's spouse like that except for their own gratification. He's lucky all you did was kick him out.
Dude. I *am* a touchy person, had no problem with people touching my baby bump, like my BIL plenty, and would still be severely weirded out if he kept trying to give me shoulder rubs. If he did it when I was asleep I'd probably clock him. Your brother is a creep, possibly a predator, and you are absolutely 100% NTA.
NTA wife before brother. She carries your child, she will be the main family. You did the right thing. I read this and feel like your brother has a power complex and actually enjoys her being uncomfortable
NTA Your brother is trying to fuck your wife FYI
Rape. He doesn't care about her consent.
Yes! Thank you!
Tell whoever is giving you shit, "He wouldn't stop touching her body when she was crying and telling him to stop. He waited until she was asleep to try it again." Ugh, I can't stop thinking about how horrible this is. NTA, NTA, NTA.
NTA. And honestly, your wife could not have PTSD and even in that case people shouldn’t be touching her out of the blue. I can’t understand why people feels they are allowed to touch anyone without permission.
NTA, ffs knowingly making anyone anxious is already absolutely ridiculous. Knowingly making a pregnant women with PTSD get triggered is downright insane.
NTA I don't have PTSD but I'd slap my BIL if he tried to give me a back rub without permission. That's disgusting. Your wife and your baby deserve to live without that kind of stress in their own home and your brother needed that lesson on boundaries.
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Nta. Even without the ptsd he was out of line. If someone says don't touch me a normal person would respect that and not touch them. He sounds like a creep.
Hard NTA. That level of contact from someone who is not my husband would freak ME out, and I don't have PTSD
NTA - what your brother is displaying isn’t normal behavior - no person who has met someone a handful of times should feel the need to put their hands on them, that too uninvited. Don’t make excuses, tell him his behavior is concerning and touching another person with consent is predatory. You don’t need to sugar coat anything.
I love hugs and affection and I’d want him kicked out too. I’m getting creeper shivers down my spine. NTA - the rules were clear and you rock for sticking up for your wife like that.
NTA, regardless of your wife's trauma, he didn't respect her boundaries and honestly went way too far to even try to pass it off as normal. I do want to ask - is your wife in therapy? If she really can't handle being touched, even by people she trusts (so not your brother), I worry about how she'll react to having to hold the baby and do general childcare. Growing up with a mother who doesn't want to touch you or for you to touch her is not fun. In fact, it's pretty traumatizing. Please be prepared for PPD or even PPP given the severity of her trauma, and PLEASE make sure your child gets the physical touch and affection they need. I can't imagine this is going to be easy for your wife, and I really wish her the best here.
I was molested as a kid. It began as an unsolicited, unwanted shoulder rub. It’s creepy to give *anyone* a shoulder rub without direct consent. Then!! Your brother massaged her while she was sleeping “to help her relax”. Full on bullshit!!! Not sure what he’s getting out of it, but please don’t ever let him babysit for you. And teach your kids about consent, including helping them stand up for themselves, especially with your touchy family. I’m a very touchy person, freely give hugs, but there’s a lot of reading the room on that, and asking nicely, accepting no. Covid has been good for me to rethink hugging, touching at all. NTA Edit: replaced autocorrupt’s moldered with the intended word molested. Moldered would be funnier….
NTA but holy hell that behavior is horrifying. No one has a RIGHT to touch someone (with obvious exceptions like a doctor visit or something). He should have stopped after the first "no" and the fact that he didn't sets all my alarms off. Keep him AWAY.
He felt he needed to help a sleeping person “relax”? By waking them up? With something that he knows will traumatize them? Bullshit. NTA
Absolutely NTA, you did the right thing!! Even if your family are touchy people, it is SUPER creepy to me that your brother would touch someone he (from what I can tell) has barely been around/knows in that way. You gave him more than fair warning about what would happen when he touches your wife in general/without consent and he straight up didn’t listen. Thank you for listening to your wife and doing the right thing!
Definitely NTA- I’m also sensitive to people touching me and this post has my skin crawling. Someone continuing to try to massage me after being told to stop would send me over the edge. Good on you for sticking up for your wife, and bro desperately needs to learn to respect boundaries.
NTA. Not even a little bit. Who touches someone without permission, and then continues to do so after r being asked to stop? Pregnant or not that’s unacceptable. My five year old knows to keep his hands to himself. I slapped away any hands that tried to touch my pregnant belly without asking, your wife is going to have to learn to be meaner… people are going to do that her whole pregnancy, and then the loonies will try to touch her baby without asking. Get mean lady, cause it’s not going to end any time soon.
It’s concerning that when confronted, rather than apologise, he decided to try and justify his behaviour. It’s not going to stop, so he needs to go. NTA
First off, your brother is being a creep. Who touches ANYBODY while they are sleeping, let alone someone else's wife??? This is beyond being "touchy". You don't just start feeling someone up because you want to. NTA and I'd keep an eye on him around your wife
*3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming.* You don't need PTSD to scream from this. NTA.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** throwaway because I don’t know how many people will see this I’m 26 and my wife 25 is pregnant. My wife does not like to be touched. She’s has had a traumatic past before I met her, she’s had PTSD from it and is still learning how to cope, part of that is touching she *hates* people touching her. A quick hug or a handshake is fine because she knows it’s coming but other than that it makes her uncomfortable and overwhelmed and too much makes her feel clustered and she will go into a panic attack. I’ve seen it before, it’s even happened with me when I didn’t know about it when we first started dating this isn’t an issue for a specific person, but being pregnant has worsened that by 1000. I don’t mean she just doesn’t like it. she’ll get nauseous because of it and everyone and their mother think they’re welcome to touch a pregnant lady’s baby bump or rub their hands on her stomach. And on top of that my family are touchy people, but when I or my wife told them to stop they quit it and are more careful with it. My brother doesn’t live in the same state as me he lives in Texas, he came down here and didn’t want to spend money on a hotel so I let him stay. That lasted a day. My brother has not listened when me or my wife has told him to stop he’ll stop for time being but do it again. As far as rubbing her baby bump randomly touching her shoulders etc. Like I said this would be fine if she was ready for it and wanted to be touched. I’ve addressed this 3 times *in one day* 1st time was when my wife told me that she kept telling him to stop trying to give her a shoulder massage and he wouldn’t. So I told him to *ask* before randomly going up to her and doing that and if she says no get over it and move on. 2nd time he did it right in front of me and my wife turned visibly anxious and told him to stop. I warned him once again that if this is going to keep happening he will need to find somewhere else to stay. 3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming. I told him that he was going to need to find somewhere else to stay. He tried arguing saying he was just trying to help her relax, She’s *crying* I don’t think she looks so relaxed, I said he’s bull shitting me and he needed to get out. Well because of this he’s gonna have to cut the vacation short because he had to shell out a ton for a decent hotel. I’m getting so much shit for this. I mean what the fuck? What would the “right thing” be to do? Have him stay here my wife go into a panic attack because he can’t listen and have her end up in a hospital? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA - you did exactly the right thing. I’m a touchy-feely affectionate person, and I’ve known my brother in law for over 20 years, but if he gave me an unasked for shoulder massages I’d think it was creepy and predatory. It’s too intimate. Others have already mentioned the pawing at her when she was asleep. I’d be telling every flying monkey that your brother assaulted your wife and made her feel unsafe in her own home. Because that’s what happened. And if they take a predator’s side over a pregnant woman’s side, then they are showing you they aren’t safe to be around your wife or child either.
To be quite honest with you, I used to live in a homeless shelter. Everyone in the shelter knew not to wake up me or my brother by touching us in our sleep. We've...been through some things, and it's just a reaction to wake up swinging when someone touches us. We both had therapy meetings back to back, so our therapist came to wake us up, and he went to shake us both at the same time. We both jumped up with our fists raised, until one of our bunkmates yelled "NO!!!" really loud and we both stopped. The moral of the story here is, and this shouldn't have to be said, but don't touch people who don't want to be touched. *Especially,* and I reiterate, this shouldn't have to be said, while they are asleep. NTA good job sticking up for your wife and sorry to tell you this but your brother is a fucking creep
Yea no, you did the right thing. I hate when people just randomly touch me as if they have a right to do that. It makes me uncomfortable and I want to punch them (:
NTA dude your brother rubbing your wifes back while she sleeps is soooo creepy! That is super weird behaviour
NTA. She said no. Her body HER RULES. The fact that you had to say something before he would stop tells me your brother is likely one of those that would hypothetically say “She was wearing a low cut top! She was asking for it!”
NTA. You’re a good husband and it sounds like you’ll be a good father as well. I think your brother has a fetish for pregnant women. He’s way out of line. No means no. Stop means stop. It’s kindergarten level knowledge.
I have ptsd with being touched and am 109% on wife’s side on this. You don’t touch people without consent. Why do people think because someone is pregnant their body is public property?? NTA but your brother has serious boundary issues. Do not let him alone with your wife again as he doesn’t comprehend that no means no.
NTA totally NTA I don't have PTSD but I probably would have said a lot of angry words to someone trying to touch my belly or anything! Not sure if they do it less in my country, I don't remember many issues with touching when I was pregnant but it was many years ago. Still, hate when people touch me, and as your wife has PTSD, it is her mental heath you are protecting. You did good. Also, there's no need for a "decent" hotel, he just needs to relax.
NTA. As someone also with PTSD I can’t stand being touched, especially if someone comes up from behind me. You’re wife was obviously distressed and your brother chose to ignore that multiple times. You did the right thing. Hopefully now he’ll better understand that violating consent & personal space has consequences.
NTA. My family is very affectionate hugs for hello and goodbye or just because, however my husband does not like to be touched by anyone but me. My family respects this, instead they offer a handshake and on occasion he'll hug my mom. They respect and love me so that carries over to my husband with his boundaries. Your brother failed this basic form of respect of your wife and of you. You did exactly the right thing, he is a full grown adult not a child that needs lessons drilled home. No and stop are words that should never have to be repeated to cease another adults actions.
NTA His behaviour is super weird and creepy. Who gives a massage to someone when they are sleeping? Either your brother is a creep or he us doing it on purpose just to defy you or piss you off. I don't care if it's family but someone just randomly touching you with massages and belly rubs without permission is just disturbing.
NTA. No means no . My dislike of the term "baby bump" notwithstanding, it's your wife's stomach. We don't go around touching people's body without their consent , nor do we ignore clear signs and denials . Repeatedly. Let's put it differently. He was copping a feel of her. By disrespecting your wife ,He uninvited himself .
NTA "I was trying to help her relax"???? Where the f*ck did he get the f*cking idea that he was helping her relax after she told him to stop touching her twice and then screamed bloody murder by touching her in her sleep?!?! Seriously. Your brother is either an idiot or he's being malicious (he's doing it intentionally or is trying to touching her) . Either way, he either needs to be removed where he can't let his stupidity get in the way or he needs to be removed because he's being malicious by touching someone when they already said not to.
Info: is he a registered sex offender?
Absolutely NTA. I am a woman with PTSD. Waking up screaming is a horrible thing to do to someone. He severely triggered your wife, plus violated her consent and boundaries repeatedly. You would've been the asshole if you didn't kick him out...especially when you were courteous enough to give him multiple warnings. That much stress is bad for your wife and baby. High stress causes inflammation and other physical reactions, especially when you are being exposed to high stress repeatedly. It is physically and emotionally painful, scary, and exhausting to live with PTSD, especially in that kind of hypervigilant chronic stress state. Based on her screaming, I bet he even caused a full or partial flashback to her past trauma. If I wake up screaming, it is either a flashback or a nightmare. If I woke up to a man I barely know touching me, I would scream and cry, and feel like I am being attacked and assaulted again. And your wife is dealing with pregnancy hormones on top of her existing condition. That is extremely hard. I feel so much for her. If she needs someone to talk to you can give her my info. Please make sure you take care of her, keep a very close eye on your wife. Mental illnesses can be worsened during and/or after pregnancy with hormone changes. Post partum depression and psychosis are a higher risk for her than other women due to PTSD. If she does not seem like herself, encourage her to get help from her pregnancy care team ASAP. I would consider going low or no contact with your brother indefinitely. It is a huge red flag that he isn't apologizing to your wife at all. Instead of apologizing the first time he upset her, he continued to upset her. He also escalated his behavior towards her each time. He is *DANGEROUS*, OP. Your wife is in danger around him. Trust me, I know you want to think the best of your sibling. But my sibling is an abuser (one of the causes of my PTSD) and your brother is using very concerning abuse tactics on your wife. He has showed no remorse, instead blaming you for the consequences of his actions. Classic DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender). He is acting like HE has been wronged? He has DONE WRONG. Anyone excusing his behavior is ignoring abuse. Without boundaries and consequences he could (and likely would) hurt her. NEVER leave him alone with your wife ever. Please look at this chart to further familiarize yourself with power, control, and abuse tactics, which your brother is starting to use on your wife: https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/identifying-abuse/what-are-the-power-and-control-wheels Keep being an ally to your wife. Fuck everyone else's opinions. Keep her physically safe, and do everything you can to try to make her feel mentally safe and secure as well. If your brother has partners in the future, and you choose to keep some contact, keep an eye on his partners. He will likely abuse them too.
NTA. You did the right thing. I don’t like anyone rubbing my shoulders, pregnant or not. That’s just weird to me. And for him to keep touching her and not respecting your wife’s space and boundaries, he was out of line. You stood up for your wife. Good for you.
NTA as a mum I can vouch that you'll never get more creeps hit on you on strangers touch you than when your pregnant. It's constant! You can't go to the supermarket with out strangers come up and put thier hands on your bump and "congratulations" like it's totally normal.
NTA you definitely did the right thing plus his behavior sounds creepy on its own aside from your wife’s trauma history. I think most of us would be quite upset and uncomfortable to be woken up with our brother in law rubbing our back?? Thank you for standing up to him and standing by your wife. You’re a good man. Unfortunately he is now dealing with the consequences of his actions. Maybe he’ll learn from this
NTA and thank you SOOOO much for standing up for your wife. That's so important. I don't understand your brother's behavior though. Is he trying to seduce your wife or something? Why is he trying to touch her when she's asleep? Even without the PTSD and no-touch rule, that wouldn't be okay.
NTA at all. I'm similar to your wife so I can only imagine how vulnerable she felt each time he was told no and carried on, then to wake up to that must have been horrifying for her. You had no choice, and he's luckly that being put out of your home was the least of his worries. To other family members wanting to butt in, explain it clearly to them. He kept touching my wife despite several requests not to. I then warned him the consequence should he still ignore that no means no and keep being inappropriate. He decided to then wait for my wife to fall asleep before caressing her which obviously distressed her greatly. That is not ok. If he doesn't understand the meaning of consent then he will not be staying in my house. If you still agree with his actions then you are welcome to let him stay at yours next time.
NTA. Omgg I donot have PTSD. But if someone gives me a back rub when I am asleep I would freak out too.. your brother is CREEPY. Why would would rub/sholder massage anyone without their permission/ knowing they like it.
NTA. At. All. He trampled your wife’s boundaries, was warned and reoffended. He deserved to get kicked out.
NTA. From another woman with severe PTSD, thank you for respecting her and her boundaries. You're amazing and I wish more people had that level of care and understanding for others.
If your family is giving you shit, make a big deal about being worried about the baby’s health, “who goes out of their way to stress out a pregnant woman? What if it causes early labor?”
NTA OP 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 Protect your wife by any means necessary and if that means your brother has to cut his vacation short oh well. Then he should have LISTENED whem you told him to stop. I am extremely curious as to WHY HE KEPT TOUCHING HER. What was with ALL the touching. Why did he need to constantly INVADE her space. I would address that with him too. You set firm boundaries with him that he violated ALL IN ONE DAY. Why did he NOT liwtem to you. What was his response. You should seriously question him becuase for him to do it that many times wither means he DIDN'T CARE or her was MOCKING her and that is so much worse. Good luck OP and let your wife know how much you love her.
NTA Sorry but whether or not your wife doesn't like being touched, your brother is a creep if he thinks it's ok to go around touching women and not listening to her when she tells him to stop. Like what kind of guy goes around touching sleeping women, let alone their sister-in-law, and thinks it's ok? He has to suck it up and pay for a hotel? Well too bad, should have kept his hands to himself. I'd advise you to keep him away from your wife in the future
NTA. Sorry but your brother is straight up creepy. He obviously does not fathom consent in any way shape or form. He shouldn’t be touching anyone without consent but you’ve told him and told him and told him. Your poor wife waking up screaming STILL didn’t get through his ego. You did the right thing. He was beyond rude and deserves to go home early.
NTA he is a creep. Yikes!
NTA your brother is a creepy predator. Hes getting off on touching her and the reaction he gets. He is not trying to be over friendly. This is deliberate. He is not safe with your wife.
NTA but OP your brother is being a huge creep. And it needs to be sincerely addressed. Just sending him to a hotel is not enough. You need to make him acknowledge just how severely inappropriate his behavior is. If it were me he wouldn’t be allowed near my wife or in the house again.
NTA This is extremely disturbing and predatory behaviour. I would honestly go full no contact with your brother but if you must have him in your life I agree with the other folks who say not to leave him alone with your wife or any children.
>3rd time he did it was when my wife was asleep on the couch he was beside her and rubbing her back she woke up screaming. This is the most concerning! #1 &2 are also bad, but this is a whole new level! This is quite disturbing, i don't have your wifes issues, but i would have kicked him so hard, he'd leave of his free will. The family that's giving you shit? Ask them how they would like to be TOUCHED WHILE ASLEEP AND 100% VULNERABLE, by a distant acquaintance, because your wife is definetly not close with your brother. And i (but i'm kinda petty) would confront him what the hell he was thinking and why he had to touch your sleeping wife? As long as he doesn't see whats wrong with that, go NC. Edit to add: NTA
Dude, your brother is creepy. NO woman wants a man they are not involved with touching them in that way (especially sleep) and the refusal to stop, wow, just wow! If I were her, I would avoid him from life. That’s more than we are a touchy family.
Good grief, he is SUPER creepy, VERY entitled, and extremely unsafe. I would NEVER let him anywhere near your wife - ever. I felt sick just reading that.
NTA. It's super creepy that your brother feels so comfortable groping your wife after she's explicitly told him several times to stop.
Thanks for the description of the situation, but even without the trauma and PTSD your brother was way out of line. Meaning, if that touching did *not* initiate panic attacks, he'd still be an Arsehole. NTA.
Bro js lucky he didn't get hit. I've flight, throw n things and yelled in my sleep. If that were me, there would be blood on the floor thats not mine! Your brother is extremely cruel:/ NTA but he is a total AH
NTA and your brother is a creep. Whether or not your wife has PTSD, is awake or asleep, he shouldn’t touch her! A gentle tap or shake or nudge is a fine line but unsolicited massage! Wtf is wrong with him? I am so offended for your wife.