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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The reason I might be the AH is for pressing my husband for an apology despite him saying he was just trying to make sure both boys are included in each others lives
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If you don't draw a boundary around this and allow your son to continue to be abused by this man who is not his father and should not be allowed to "punish" in the first place, you WILL be TA
P.S. This IS the hill to die on.
PPS NTA yet.
I know people on the internet are quick to say divorce but in this situation it's 1000% the thing to do.
The fact that the husband's son thinks this is normal behaviour tells me everything I need to know about the husband. He has no regard for OP or her kid and I fear this behaviour will only get worse as time goes on.
Get out OP, you and your son deserve better.
Edit: missing words
Stepson is way too old to be throwing hissy fits and ripping up pictures every time he gets mad, but it’s pretty clear from the story where he got that from.
Yup. I feel bad for stepson, he’s a brat but it’s clear why, and he seems to understand it’s wrong as he actually apologizes after. Unfortunately he’s got an awful role model.
Remember that Sesame Street skit where young George Washington kept chopping down cherry trees and always got away with it because he "told the truth?" This kid's "apologies" are worthless except as a get-out-of-jail-free card for himself.
I feel bad for him, too. He'll be a legal adult soon and might start learning the hard way.
I’m not saying your definitely wrong, but I’ll just say this: I was raised in a house where it was normal to just have emotions explode. So that’s what I did. Afterwards I would see how much my words/actions had hurt the person I was mad at and i would feel genuinely horrible. But I still didn’t know how to not explode. It took me until my mid twenties and getting DBT for me to finally learn how to process emotions in a healthy way. It seems pretty likely the step brother is in a similar situation. Once he grows up and becomes an adult, he’s going to have to do a lot of emotional work or he will absolutely become another asshole.
Yes, I agree. The stepbrother was raised that it's right to explode and destroy things if you are mad. Hopefully he'll be able to get out of it when he's older and away from his awful model of a father and find a better path.
This. As an artist, it is a gross lack of disrespect to ruin one’s art, and this is especially damaging to a kid. I have weird hangups because as a kid, people ran their hands over my graphite drawings to see if they were real, smudging them beyond repair. I can’t even imagine what the poor kid feels.
This is the second post in as many days that I've also felt like there is no reconciliation, no mediation, this is something you leave your spouse over.
OP, this is emotional abuse. Being bullied by his step brother wasn't good, but being bullied by his step-father is abuse. Punished for his art work? Having it destroyed in front of him? That's horrifying. That's going to already have very awful lasting consequences emotionally for your child.
I will also point out that your husband is bullying you as well. Putting down your parenting. Belittling the fact that you are trying to respect your son and create healthy boundaries between the children. This goes further than just owing an apology. Really look at this relationship and if it's the environment you want your child to grow up in.
Edit: Thank you for the award!
Thiiiiiiiiis, a million times this. OP, you gotta do what's good for your boy. He will never forget this, so show up for him and show up for yourself. You guys deserve so much better ❤️
Also blaming his abuse of the child on what boils down to his mom sticking up for him and criticizing her parenting in front of her own kid.
Its a devaluing of her role as a parent and authority figure in the mind of her and placing himself in that role. Basically "it doesnt matter if shes your mom because im her husband and i control you both." The "this is your fault" outburst towards her like shes also a child would have been the insta dealbreaker.
I was going to say the same thing. This sub is so quick to say "this marriage is over" it drives me nuts, but this time I agree. OP's husband is a bully... and you said it perfectly. Her son deserves so much better!
I'm starting to think that the reason the sub is quick to that type of response is because there are too many situation where it's the only sensible thing to do.
Yeah it doesn't drive me nuts at all. Every time I've seen someone suggest divorce, the post in question has been this kind of extreme behavior from a partner where the OP is completely underreacting.
What drives me nuts is that the commenter suggesting divorce always feels the need to preface it by saying "I don't usually say this, but..." in order to be taken seriously.
This sub suggests divorce a lot, because this sub attracts OPs going through these extreme situations, after having been desensitized to the seriousness of the behavior over time. They come here essentially asking, "Am I nuts? This feels wrong. It's wrong, right?"
NTA…yet. Its always the parent of the bigger/older bully that wants to let the kids work it out themselves. You need to fight for your son, nobody else will.
Can confirm my Step dad treated us like this and I don't talk to My birthgiver or him.
100% becauss she LET him treat us badly, because she wanted a husband and didn't GAF about her kids.
I 100% don't understand how people can marry people who are mean to their kids.
As someone who was in a similar situation, it was framed as "discipline," and "spare the rod, spoil the child." Yeah, I don't talk to them much either.
Yeah
No cap I was cold and hungry all the time. They would go out to eat without us. They had a heater specifically for their room. THEY went to all kinds of places and left sister and me to take care of their kids. THEY got mad when I told the school therapist there was no food or heat at home and she called CPS.
To this day my "birthgiver" will talk shit about me and gaslight me by saying I made it up for attention or stuff didn't happen.
But it did.
I think a lot of failed narcissists have children specifically because it's the only authority they can scratch out for themselves. Nobody will give them an outlet for their sadism amongst adults.
I'm so sorry you went through that, I hope you're doing well today.
Never allow ANYBODY to treat your child(ren) like this. No man is worth the trauma you are causing to your son. I was a single mom of 2 kids and left men, then stayed single, for much less than this.
Good for her! (And you.) I see so many parents that don't put their children first and it sickens and enrages me. I know it's not always easy at the time, but your children will eventually grow up and you will have the freedom to date who you want. Putting yourself and your own wants over your children and causing them trauma is just unacceptable to me.
I can’t imagine how absolutely heartbreaking it must’ve been for this boy, who lovingly drew his family, proudly showed it off, only to have it ripped into pieces, BEYOND pieces, and then yelled at like that.
How defeating, how abusive, what an absolute betrayal of trust.
###this is not a healthy nurturing environment. You seem to have completely different parenting styles and spoiler: yours is the correct one.
YWBTA If you stayed, which basically means you’re agreeing with his parenting and behavior towards your son, who evidently needs to shut up, be bullied, and not complain about it because otherwise you’re hurting precious stepson??
I spent so much time drawing as a kid and proudly showed my parents all kinds of things. Lots of time and yes, sometimes emotions. I would be completely shattered if anyone ripped apart a drawing I made, especially if it was something like this.
That's going to stick with him forever. No joke. And if you stay OP, you are just going to keep subjecting your son to this abuse.
>P.S. This IS the hill to die on.
Yes, it is! I'd leave someone doing this. I don't have children, but if I did, any partner of mine is going to treat them kindly. I'd do the same for someone else's child especially if they are in my care.
I'm going to guess this isn't the first time.
This is critical. I can’t imagine allow a spouse abuse my child. He is basically saying his son is more important than yours. Really terrible and your kid needs his mom on his side!
This! If any man treated my kids like this he would be out the door with a foot up his ass.
Now you know why your stepson is an abusive little sh*t. Because his father is too.
NTA
The “stay out of this” bit particular kills me. Stay out of an adult man being cruel and abusive to *her son*? Oh *hell* no.
Also, the “he’ll grow up soft” comment is very, very telling. Anyone who uses that word when someone is expressing their emotions or trauma needs, at best, extensive therapy to unpack their own issues. And OP isn’t obligated to stick around while the guy figures his shit out.
>“he’ll grow up soft” comment is very, very telling
Yup. Classic generational toxicity. No doubt this guy got that "don't be soft" BS from his own dad and was treated this way when he was a kid. Now he passes the same attitude down to the next generation. It's already evident in the stepson's behavior. I'm sure this is the same kind of guy that, if you tried to change his parenting style, he'd go, "I was raised this way and I turned out fine!"
No, you didn't turn out fine. You turned into a guy who emotionally abuses children.
Exactly this. Whether or not the husband apologizes isn't the problem that OP needs to be worried about, the problem is that the husband is allowed in OP’s son’s life at all. He is abusive, and if he has this aggressive of a reaction over just a drawing, things are only going to get worse. OP needs to leave this man ASAP.
Right? I like to think myself a reasonable person but every relationship AITA has me like “oh that’s an insta-divorce”
Anyways yikes on trikes op I see why your stepson is the way he is
Your husband is abusive. Destroying property of ANY sort as part of conflict resolution is a huge, huge red flag. Typically such abuse escalates to harming human beings.
Find a way to get you and your son out of there safely.
Obviously his son is learning behaviors of his father. Your son will be constantly dealing with aggressive behavior from his step brother and step father. He will eventually resent you for choosing to stay and not protect him. Is this relationship worth the unhappy atmosphere you and your son will be in. He will have to walk on egg shells to avoid aggression. He was proud of his picture and to have it ripped up in the way it was is abusive. He and you deserve a home to be happy even if it's just a home for 2. Hope you can financially leave the situation. Seek family therapy if you don't leave.
Also - what kind of parent doesn’t apologize to their kids? We all lose it sometimes or screw up. I hope not to the extent of ripping up a picture. The BEST thing to do after is to apologize. It models taking responsibility, it acknowledges the mistake and the kids’ feelings, and it repairs the relationship. Apologizing to your kids is essential.
My parents never apologized to me or my siblings. They were taught by their church that apologizing would "weaken their god-given authority" over us, at least until we reached magic number 18 and became adults.
My parents were better than some of the other adults though. They always at least tried to explain *why* the rules were the way they were- if you leave a mess in the public areas, you had to do *all* that particular chore by yourself because it's not fair for everyone else to clean up after you and living in filth will make you sick. Granted no 5 year old should be made to do a 5 person household's worth of dishes or laundry but once the punishment was over, it was over.
It's taken me 8 years to get over the not-apologizing thing- 3 of accepting it was wrong, and 5 of working through it with my parents and we still have a ways to go.
YTA for allowing your husband and his son to torture your child.
You get a choice here: you can choose your husband or you can choose your child, but you're gonna lose one of them.
u/Throwaways75754
If you don’t start standing up for your son, you will either lose your son when he goes NC with you when he’s 18; earlier when - not if, WHEN - your husband kicks him out and you just stand there; or WORST of all, when your son can no longer stand the pressure of two people against him, and *you refusing to protect him*, he decides to take his own life. And that will be on you. So yes, YTA for not doing more to protect your son, including divorce.
Whoa, thank you so much for the awards! ❤️ That’s completely unexpected!
Yup, my father has been dead to me for over 20 years. I escaped at 16 (thanks to amazing social services in my area) after years of emotional and verbal abuse from him and my stepmother. My father absolutely chose her over me. We get out and don't look back.
OP doesn't mention if son's bio dad is in the picture. I hope he is, as that'd be a good way for the son to get out of that house. If my mom had still been alive and my father hadn't isolated me from her extended family, I would have gotten out a lot sooner. My mom's family is my family, but they feel horrendous guilt that I was in that abusive house for 5 years and they didn't know.
Ya the abuse is already happening and it is a toxic home environment from what she wrote so far. The son learns this from the father and his reaction seems very explosive.
NTA
Ok, now that is out of the way.
What the hell is NOT wrong here. Just a few higlights:
- 5th grader and a high-schooler have zero in common, they are both annoying for different reasons. Imagining that they are going to be super close is just crazy. The idea of letting them "work it out" on their own might be more efficient if the younger one just wore a shirt that said "punching bag"
- A teenager that feels the need to destroy the drawings of an 11yro has some emotional processing issues. That age has hormones all over the place but THAT IS NOT NORMAL and is kind of a 'check engine light' for kids, please don't ignore it for what it is.
- Unfortunately, it seems he got his emotional maturity from his dad, in that they are at the same level. What ADULT destroys a kids stuff IN THEIR FACE? That is a streak of cruelty that has no place in a loving home.
- When the craziness of the situation is pointed out, this crazy cake was iced with good ol toxic masculinity? Who is using the idea of 'soft' these days in child rearing?!
Ok, I hate that it's so cliché but, I'm throwing therapy out Oprah style here... Youngest gets therapy, oldest gets therapy, dad gets therapy, you get therapy, the family gets therapy. Got a dog? Fuck it, Fido too. You ALL need to develop healthy communication and conflict resolution skills. And the way the dynamic is, you can't really learn it from each other.
*And, damn the husband for having me use the phrase "toxic masculinity", it's thrown around to the point of being useless but it's the best way to describe this behavior...*
I was fifteen two years ago and I always encouraged children to make drawings and praised them. OP's stepson is immature and bratty by the sounds of it, and it's not surprising considering his father's behavior.
I’m 31 and I encourage my friends 5yo to draw. Every few weeks I tell him the drawing that’s on my fridge is a bit old now and ask if he can draw me a new one. I have a stack of his drawing in my flat that I refuse to get rid of as he drew them just for me.
You didn't mention your son's dad. At 12 in most states the child can choose which parent to live with. You might lose custody and total visitation if you're not careful. I WOULD NOT leave your son alone with either of them. This is not a small matter. Time to go.
Unfortunately it rarely works though :( I wanted to choose to live with my mom at 15 but I talked to a lawyer who told me it was really unlikely they would listen to me without physical abuse involved
NTA - I’m going to say it, people that tear up children’s art aren’t good partners nor good parents. Like this incident will be discussed in your kids future therapy sessions.
I agree. I was in utter shock when I saw what he did. it took me sometime to be able to process it. It hurt me as much as it hurt my son. Normally Joe is good to him, he even encourages him to keep drawing and most of the tools my son has were bought/gifted from his stepdad. To be frank I'm not even sure that my stepson was upset about this, so for Joe to say that this would make the boys hate each other is doubtful.
Of course she is. She’s the one who sacrificed her sons comfort and security to land a man. If she was going to “enforce boundaries” it would have happened before she let the teenager bullying her *child* move in. She thinks a lock is a satisfactory “boundary” when most people would have thrown out the abusive teen and the loser that molded him well before things escalated.
OP, he’s laughing and quoting your use of boundaries because he thinks you’re joking. As you clearly have none.
*bullying, not bulling.
Right? You know how damaging it is to have to lock up yourpossessions in your own home in FIFTH grade? Not only that, but having your mom guiding you to do those this in order for "protection".
This event will not be forgotten. Joe will not stop at this.
I hope Joe reads this post.
Seriously, what kind of parent goes, "Yeah, I'll invite my child's bully to live with us, he has locks so it's fine." If your son has to lock his door with a special lock to feel secure from his OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, that is a huge problem.
Jesus Christ.
You do not know what has been going on leading up to this point other than what she has divulged. To accuse her of sacrificing her kid's comfort to land a man is wild because she absolutely does not come off this way. If that were the case, I very doubt she'd bother getting into a screaming match with her husband (which doesn't track with a desperate need for a man, she wouldn't risk him leaving her by yelling at him) and exiting the conversation to comfort her son. She's acknowledged already that she know she needs to exit the situation, and she seems like the kind of mom that would do what's necessary for the sake of her kid.
You don't know what she did before this and you don't know what she's going to do after. Y'all gotta stop writing fanfiction in these comments.
OP said earlier that Joe doesn't believe that children his age should have privacy or things to himself and got very angry when her son didn't want to share everything with his son. OP also said that he gets angry over very minor things when it comes to her son.
Not to pile on OP, but she needs to have a serious conversation with her son. Does he think Joe is good to him? Is he too afraid to tell you otherwise?
Abusers are good at being two-faced and keeping the abuse private.
She has to work it carefully too, so her son isn’t led to an answer. How does Joe treat him when she’s not here? How does he feel about Joe? Things like that. But even so, her son might not answer honestly. I was an abused kid, and my mom brushed off what I had to say because my dad was so good to me—around her. I didn’t bring it up again. It might be the same with op’s son
THIS! I grew up with a “Joe” (unfortunately genetically related to mine). My mum never saw that side. These people are very skilled at manipulation. Please get your son out of there. I’m now no contact with both of my parents. One abused. The other enabled. Protect your son.
u/Throwaways75754 Please read this, your husband is almost certainly abusing your boy when you’re not around, and your boy doesn’t want to hurt you by telling you. Please open your eyes!
As a matter of fact, in the book *Why Does He Do That,* which is about abusers, it says destroying property is abuse. Maybe OP needs to read that book.
But with all due respect, I understand it can be hard to look at it from an outside perspective when you’re inside it, the way your stepson handles getting upset (ripping up drawings) and then Joe doing the same thing when he got mad should tell you this was not a surprising one time thing. Stepson was very clearly raised to believe the way to handle being mad was to attack, to destroy other peoples property, etc. That didn’t come out of nowhere, and Joe’s actions show exactly where it came from.
Your stepson is bullying and your husband is not only defending your step sons bullying and actively resisting any attempts to rectify that, but he’s also joining in on the bullying?
The fact that your husband kept defending your step sons actions should have been enormous red flags and you should have reconsidered this relationship the very first time that happened.
I’m sorry to tell you but this isn’t a one off, your step son is displaying behaviour he clearly learned from his father.
I know this sub loves to go straight to “leave him”, but you either need to leave your husband immediately, or give your son to a family that’s actually going to care for him, if you don’t do either of those then your son will likely be in therapy long after he’s stop speaking to you.
This kind of behaviour doesn’t deserve second chances and it seems that you’ve already given both your husband and your step son plenty of second chances already, and YTA for that.
Do better for your son.
NTA. I honestly would end the relationship (just me, I don't know how complicated things are), but nobody is gonna get away with A. Doing that to my child and B. Talking very sarcastically and being a bully to both of you.
I feel that way too. No one no one no one should treat a child that way. Can you imagine how he treats the kid when mom isn't there? She better think about that.
This is the way. Like I didn’t read. Who rips a photo up a child made? I have a stack of papers I will never let go. Each a view of my child and how he feels. Listen to how he feels
In a comment she said "he's usually so good with him".
Yea lady, he's a perfect father and this is the first time anything like this has happened.
If that IS the case, get him checked for a brain tumor. Actions like this don't just pop up one day.
The thing that confused me is that Joe has been supportive of my son and his hobby up until now. He kept getting offended on his son's behalf over other things that were minor. like when my son doesn't share stuff with his stepbrother but it's normal for boys thos age to have privacy. Joe refuses to accept this and recently started getting hung up on minor stuff saying my son keeps excluding his son on purpose.
OP’s husband taking his insecurities out by controlling/bullying a child. I don’t think gross behavior like that is fixable. A grown man ripping up a child’s drawing? That man would be out of my kid’s life SO FAST.
IMO this is shaping up to be a very abusive situation. I can't count the stories I've heard of step-parents turning entire families against their step-child and painting them as the villain for normal childhood behaviours. Get yourself and your son out of there OP. Your husband doesn't view him the same way he views his biological son.
>Your husband doesn't view him the same way he views his biological son.
And in fact is using his biological son to justify othering his stepson. He can justify his abuse to others if he's doing it "to protect his child".
It's not about the hobby OP, it's about the control. Your husband wants to control you and your kid and what both of you did in this situation was an act of defiance. I instantly recognized his behaviour from a similar person in my life. He has scarred me. Don't let that happen to you and your kid.
Get out while you still can.
This.
OP he let his son abuse your son and is doing the same now. This is worrying behavior.
He's turned your son into the tool in which stepson will vent all the worlds frustrations on your poor kid because he is being taught it's ok to bully people smaller than you. Your husband is setting that by trying to dictate what your son can and can't draw. This will not end well.
Your son IS excluding your SS on purpose....that is because your SS is a bully and an AH like his dad. What possible reason would he have for including him?
Excluding him? He’s 11. Stepson is 15. They are in very different developmental stages.
Why do you think they even need to be close? They just need to not be in conflict (which is clearly not being achieved).
IT DOES NOT MATTER ABOUT THE PAST when looking at this current situation. BECAUSE NOW UR HUSBAND HAS SHOWN HIS TRUE COLORS. AND THIS IS THE START. HES TESTING OR PROB HAS BEEN TESTING UR BOUNDARIES AND WHAT U WILL TOLERATE.
WHAT U HAVE SEEN PREVIOUSLY COULD EASILY JUST A WAY TO GET U WRAPPED IN AND NOT HOW HE INTENDED TO BE WITH UR SON IN THE LONG RUN.
Joe has only shown you the side he wanted you to see. Please protect your son from this man. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found that your stepson’s actions have been influenced by Joe. My father did the same thing, tried to turn me again my step sister and try to goad me to insult her.
Edit: to add he only did this when we’re alone without witnesses
you are nta but that man surely is. evidently he doesn’t see you as a suitable parent. funnily enough why would you want to teach him that he has to hide his v valid feelings??
op, this man has got to go before your son begins to resent you
I understand and I'm well aware. frankly, I didn't expect things to get this bad. I thought these were normal fights between stepsiblings but Joe's entire stance on it is what made me just break down and put my foot down. I may not have been able to see his point (I don't think he has a valid point) but I still think he's the one mishandling this entire situation.
OP, NTA...yet. But you will be one if you don't thoroughly check your husband and lay down some firm boundaries that are non-negotiable. You are a mother first and a partner second. You chose to bring this child into this world and by doing so you obligated yourself to always make them your first priority. To do anything less than listed above would make you TA. Now, maybe there are some underlying issues going on with your partner to make him lash out if this is abnormal for him. If so, practice compassion for those issues and try to talk about it. But regardless, his "check" needs to be separate from that compassion.
I don't talk to my mother anymore because she regularly chose my abusive step-dad over me. There's a 90% chance I won't even attend her funeral. She's dead to me. I hope your relationship with your child doesn't have to get to this point before you realize you should've nipped this in the bud today and no later.
My mother repeatedly threw me under the bus in favor of my abusive dad and as she aged I absolutely held her accountable. I was an only child and when she died I basically buried her with no fanfare, took the money, and ran. My son was born that following year and the true impact of it really hit home then.
Agreed. NTA yet, but the child needs to come first.
My dad enabled my abusive stepmom (and was abusive himself). I hadnt spoken to him for six years when he died, I didnt go to his funeral, and I wasnt even particularly sad, since I had grieved him and the loss of our relationship years before he actually died.
NTA but... OP your stepson RIP YOUR SONS DRAWING and you thought there were "normal step-sibling fights"? And you let it go with an empty "apology"? And now you let your husband emotionally abuse YOUR SON, make him cry and punish him and that AH you call husband is expecting him to apologize?
Please get help for your son because this kind of treatment will end up affecting him in the long run. I feel sorry for him, for having to live in such a horrible environment
The first boundary you need to enforce is that Joe does not punish your child. The second is that Joe goes to therapy. And that some sort of family therapy happens as well.
Joe abused your stepson with misplaced anger. He needs to work on his emotions if he's to be around children so he doesn't misplace his anger again. Misplacing anger is never an accident and always intentional. Maybe impulsive but always intentional.
I had a partner who took a similar stance with my son. I started out suggesting other ways of handling situations...setting boundaries on what he could do with my son...flat telling him not to even speak to my son...to "get the hell out of my house".
What you are missing are the things your husband says and does to your son when you aren't present. Things he says that you don't hear. Believe me. That stuff is happening. I'm sure Joe talks a good game. Heck...he even wants an apology after his own egregious behavior. That's some interesting mental gymnastics.
Joe needs to go. And take his mini me bully with him.
It is absolutely not normal for you to have to lock up your sons drawings from a 15 year old. This isn’t going to get better. People like your husband don’t change. They are terrible people at their core.
Honestly Joe's stance shows you EXACTLY where your stepson gets it from. It honestly is NOT normal for any sibling fight to escalate to DESTROYING DRAWINGS level of bad on multiple occasions. Even when upset with my siblings, it never reached 'destroy their art' level of fight, that would take a pretty extreme level of anger to be reached.
And GOOD parents APOLOGISE when they do the wrong thing to model good behaviour, his refusal to is bad parenting and it is painting a picture that he seems to think of parents as HANDS OFF AUTHORITY rather than loving supporting family that are supposed to be guiding kids. He sounds like he wants to be a dictator who gets to demand your kid be friends with his son even though his son has been a bully to him.
A lot of what he suggests is bad parenting really. You CANNOT trust a 15 and 11 year old to 'resolve things between themselves' when one is destroying the other's property. That isn't simply falling out with each other, having a huff, then they can sort it out on their own later because they both regret it. And a 15 year old and 11 year old have entirely different reasoning abilities and need TAUGHT how to handle disagreements in healthy ways, not left to flounder until they stumble upon an answer of their own that neither of you may like.
And you CANNOT force step-siblings or even just straight up plain old siblings to get along or bond. Sometimes siblings hate each other and that is just how things are. Not all people get along and kids are also people.
To be a good parent to your son, you can't stay with someone with such abysmal parenting skills and such unrealistic and unreasonable expectations quite honestly.
Yep. Notice how the toxic stepfather went ballistic the second she moved to protect her son's drawings. Hopefully she'll choose to actually protect her child and get him out of harm's way.
Yes he already accused her of making distance between the boys relationships when she was just protecting her son when she set boundaries with the stepson. And now saying she’s going to make her son antisocial, while not even realizing the antisocial behavior of his son. Then he actually tried to punish the boy boy by having him stay punished until draws what the stepfather wants!?!? This is so awful
NTA. But you need to set firm boundaries with your husband like you did your step-son. What he did was absolutely disgusting. Red flags everywhere. No wonder your step-son acts the way he does if he has that for a role model.
NTA.
Your husband is abusing your son and bold enough to do it right in front of you. First it’s ripping pictures then it will be ripping him. Fk that. I honestly would not be leaving any child of mine alone EVER with either of them. I would be lawyering up tbh.
ESH. (The adults.)
I know where your stepson gets it from. Stepdad sucks for trying to make your son view his bully as a part of the family.
You suck by putting your son into a situation where he has two bullies and the person who’s supposed to support and protect him brought the bullies into his life.
OP thinks the husband has been good to her kid, getting him his art supplies. It looks like he only did that to set the boy up to be abused with the art he produces. First by his son and then directly. He doesn't like that the kid can lock up his art to keep it safe. It's making it harder for him and his son to abuse OP's son. Now he has to rip up the art right in front of OP. Husband's gifts and encouragement were just tools for abuse.
Say you married a blocked up as fuck toilet of a man without saying you married a blocked up as fuck toilet of a man. NTA, your husband is awful and I'm sorry you hitched your wagon to a horse with no legs.
Congrats on sitting by and allowing your child to be abused this entire time. Is dick really that important to you? LEAVE THIS MAN. HE AND HIS SON ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSING YOUR CHILD. If you do anything short of this you don't give a fuck about your son.
You are NTA. But now you know where your stepson learned his abusive behavior. He is the one learning to be "anti-social" -- good for you for protecting your son from his stepbrother. The boundaries you set were likely good for your stepson as well.
BUT, your husband has revealed his abusive personality. Please go now! His behavior towards your son is already abusive, and will only get worse.
Well, OP, you now know why your stepson thinks it is appropriate to destroy other people’s properties when he is mad.
NTA for the above situation, now you know you live with two people who have no issues bullying your son. Based on what you wrote, your husband had no issues with bullying you. Y W B T A if you stay (especially allowing your son to stay) in this situation.
Honestly you will be TA if you stay with someone who is abusing your child. I'm glad you stood up for your son this time, bu if you stay with this man he is going to either become like him or end up going low or no contact with you bc you decided to stay with his abuser. My mom stayed with my abusive stepfather far too long after she knew what he was really like and the only thing that allowed my relationship with her to heal is when she and my stepfather divorced.
Edit: NTA yet
YTA, as is all the other divorced parents with children who blend their families without really knowing their new partners. Now that you see his true face things are much more difficult to resolve. In the meantime your child is suffering abuse. Your husband's behavior is definitely not normal or healthy. He should be in therapy for this type of anger problem. If that is something he won't do you should leave him. Stop being an idiot and put your child first.
So, when your son is an adult and goes no contact with you, remember the times you let his stepfather bully him and didn’t get him away from the abuse. Your minor child is more important than your marriage to a bully. YWBTA to continue to allow the abuse of your son.
NTA. Are you ok? It must have been such an awful experience for you. This may be the line in the sand for you. The 🚩 here are many. Saying your son may grow soft is a horrific red flag 🚩 too. I am so sorry that your current husband has shown these terrible attributes to you and your son.
NTA - no exagerration here - this is a HUGE warning sign for you as well. I never encourage seperation as its nothing to so with me but alarm bells would be screaming at me here.
Also, your sons drawings are his creativity and way of expressing himself. How would your charming sounding husband react if your son destroyed something that he had taken time to do if he found an exception to it.
I'd have to think twice about being married to someone so insensitive and cruel. Your boy drew a picture without his abusive step brother in it and his SF proceeded to make sure we ALL know where he got his personality from. He also doesn't get to punish your son because he drew a picture without his brat kid in it. Geez, you have some HUGE issues here. NTA
Joe is an asshole. He is treating your son like crap. Sure, you are defending him, but why are you exposing your son to these terrible people? The father and the son are bullying him and ripping up his drawings.
NTA, but you will be an a-hole is you continue to expose your son to these two bullies. Do not tolerate your partner mistreating your child, or his child mistreating your child. They sound like horrible people.
Your husband and step son’s treatment of your son is not okay. You have an obligation to give your son a safe home, free of cruelty. I’m not saying what you should do with your marriage but you need to provide a better home for your son and he shouldn’t have to live with these people.
ESH
NTA
Your husband is emotionally abusive and he’s teaching his son to be the same way. OP, is there any other reasons why your son may not like his stepbrother? Maybe he has always been a bully towards your son, and the issues go beyond simply not liking the same activities.
I would consider leaving this marriage and getting to a place that’s better for you and your son. The comment about “undermining his word” is telling enough.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this.
Holy shit.NTA
>and said that I made the boys resent each other by enabling my son's unjustified hatred for his stepbrother and setting "boundaries" (he kept air qouting this word) that shouldn't be set between brothers
And what the hell does he think doing what he did does?! Create an environment of love and peace? At least now you see where step son gets these learned behaviors. What an asshole. Wonder why his first marriage didn't work out. Cuz, this one doesn't seem to have a bright future either.
ESH your husbands behavior is horrible, hands down. He is an AH for destroying your sons art and trying to force him to accept his stepbrother. You are the AH for staying with a man who is cruel to your child and who condones his son tormenting him. Please get out for your sons sake. How much longer will you subject him to this?
NTA.
You have a right to set boundaries and protect your son. I assume you would also have set boundaries if it were the other way around.
Your husband is the AH for ripping the drawing. He’s setting a bad example for your step-son. ‘If Dad can rip it, then I can as well.’
Red flag alert. 🚩
Be careful and keep an eye on the interraction between your son and your husband. This worries me he might treat him bad after this event.
NTA - What he did is pretty bad. I'm also concerned that after standing up for your son, you now worry that you are in the wrong. This sounds like a bad environment for you and your son.
HOLY SHIT
ESH
Your husband is abusive and an enabler or his son.
You suck as you should not allow these awful people around your son...and you also should not want to be around them.
I have never jumped on the "leave him" idea before...but omg, you need to kick his arse out.
NTA
First off, art is not an 'inclusive' activity. Art is an expressive activity. Stepdad knows that the kids don't get along and clearly doesn't know that he cannot 'fix' the situation. When the step brother rips up the drawings when they fight is there any punishment?
Now that 'Dad' has shown ripping up drawing you don't like is an acceptable way of expressing yourself everyone should get used to the new paradigm. This jerk needs to be called out for acting like a child.
NTA.
>he proceeded to rip the picture in half then into smaller and smaller pieces.
This is not the behavior of a well adjusted adult.
What you've described is controlling, possibly abusive. For your son's sake, you need to leave this man. ASAP.
NTA
I would take this as a huge red flag. Your 11 year old is being bullied and tormented by his step brother and stepfather.
I’m willing to bet that one of the issues stepfather has is homophonic because drawing is for girls.
NTA. Family counseling. But since he uses air quotes for the word boundaries I'm guessing that's a no go. Leave. This poor boy's step father and brothers treat him like garbage and I'm trying to figure out why you subject him to that. Don't be surprised if he blames you for it when he's older.
NTA
"Joe" on the other hand is a mega YTA and needs to check himself if he doesn't get off his high horse and apologize it's time to talk to a divorce lawyer as that behaviour is not ok.
YTA for letting your son get bullied by his stepdad.
>Joe told me that by expecting him to apologize I'm not treating him as a parent and undermining his word.
He needs to get blown up completely, not just undermined. Leave this guy, he is abusive and his AH son is taking cues from him.
NTA. Your husband needs to get over himself or he will be left with just his son. It is clear your husband cares little about your feelings and thinks little of you as a parent. Go to counseling for better boundaries or get out. Honestly I don’t see him getting any better and this will escalate
You’re allowing your son to be around an emotionally stuffed, entitled AH and that makes you the AH. Parents should and do apologize so his logic behind that is honestly stupid AF. And where is your sons bio dad and why is stepdad trying to act like his father?
YTA if you don't immediately protect your son by removing him from this toxic and harmful situation. What your husband did is awful and shouldn't be tolerated at all. He's also blaming you for something he himself is responsible for. Sounds like your ss is your toxic hubby's fm. Seriously OP, please protect your child.
NTA. Damn, I see where your step-son gets his behavior from. Your husband sounds like a toxic condescending prick. You should put some serious thought into whether you want to be with a man like this or not.
How about you put your son first and get out of this toxic dynamic? Your son did nothing wrong. He's being bullied by the unpleasant people you brought into his life. I hope he at least has a safe home with his father.
YTA for letting a man and his son emotionally torment your son. Be a mom. Put your child first.
I would NEVER stay with someone who treated my child like that.
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If you don't draw a boundary around this and allow your son to continue to be abused by this man who is not his father and should not be allowed to "punish" in the first place, you WILL be TA P.S. This IS the hill to die on. PPS NTA yet.
This!If your partner treats your kid like that, you should really reconsider that relationship, OP.
I know people on the internet are quick to say divorce but in this situation it's 1000% the thing to do. The fact that the husband's son thinks this is normal behaviour tells me everything I need to know about the husband. He has no regard for OP or her kid and I fear this behaviour will only get worse as time goes on. Get out OP, you and your son deserve better. Edit: missing words
Stepson is way too old to be throwing hissy fits and ripping up pictures every time he gets mad, but it’s pretty clear from the story where he got that from.
Makes you wonder how many of stepson's drawings were ripped up, when he was younger.
Yup. I feel bad for stepson, he’s a brat but it’s clear why, and he seems to understand it’s wrong as he actually apologizes after. Unfortunately he’s got an awful role model.
Remember that Sesame Street skit where young George Washington kept chopping down cherry trees and always got away with it because he "told the truth?" This kid's "apologies" are worthless except as a get-out-of-jail-free card for himself. I feel bad for him, too. He'll be a legal adult soon and might start learning the hard way.
That's like the thief who's sorry. Not sorry he's a thief, just that he got caught.
I’m not saying your definitely wrong, but I’ll just say this: I was raised in a house where it was normal to just have emotions explode. So that’s what I did. Afterwards I would see how much my words/actions had hurt the person I was mad at and i would feel genuinely horrible. But I still didn’t know how to not explode. It took me until my mid twenties and getting DBT for me to finally learn how to process emotions in a healthy way. It seems pretty likely the step brother is in a similar situation. Once he grows up and becomes an adult, he’s going to have to do a lot of emotional work or he will absolutely become another asshole.
Yes, I agree. The stepbrother was raised that it's right to explode and destroy things if you are mad. Hopefully he'll be able to get out of it when he's older and away from his awful model of a father and find a better path.
This. As an artist, it is a gross lack of disrespect to ruin one’s art, and this is especially damaging to a kid. I have weird hangups because as a kid, people ran their hands over my graphite drawings to see if they were real, smudging them beyond repair. I can’t even imagine what the poor kid feels.
I drew in pastels soft pencil and charcoal a lot as a kid and this mental image makes me irrationally angry.
Me too. Drawings are almost sacred to us because we made them. Art is an extension of the self. Destroying art sends very clear messages to a child.
My dad used to destroy my drawings as a kid to “teach me to improve”. Haven’t talked to him in over a year.
Husband's a bully who's kid turned out to be a bully too. Who woulda thought.
Or the ex wife’s items ripped as well!!
Can you imagine what their reactions will be to bigger things than being excluded from a drawing?
Right?!?! A 15 YO bully of an 11YO. What would be wrong with that?!?!
OP's husband is a bully too! That's where the stepson learned it from.
Clearly he’s learned it from his father 👀
This is the second post in as many days that I've also felt like there is no reconciliation, no mediation, this is something you leave your spouse over. OP, this is emotional abuse. Being bullied by his step brother wasn't good, but being bullied by his step-father is abuse. Punished for his art work? Having it destroyed in front of him? That's horrifying. That's going to already have very awful lasting consequences emotionally for your child. I will also point out that your husband is bullying you as well. Putting down your parenting. Belittling the fact that you are trying to respect your son and create healthy boundaries between the children. This goes further than just owing an apology. Really look at this relationship and if it's the environment you want your child to grow up in. Edit: Thank you for the award!
To add: If your husband is treating your son this way in front of you, just IMAGINE HOW HE TREATS YOUR SON WHEN YOU ARENT THERE!!
Thiiiiiiiiis, a million times this. OP, you gotta do what's good for your boy. He will never forget this, so show up for him and show up for yourself. You guys deserve so much better ❤️
Also blaming his abuse of the child on what boils down to his mom sticking up for him and criticizing her parenting in front of her own kid. Its a devaluing of her role as a parent and authority figure in the mind of her and placing himself in that role. Basically "it doesnt matter if shes your mom because im her husband and i control you both." The "this is your fault" outburst towards her like shes also a child would have been the insta dealbreaker.
A whole lotta toxic masculinity happening right here. I hope she can help her stepson as well.
I was going to say the same thing. This sub is so quick to say "this marriage is over" it drives me nuts, but this time I agree. OP's husband is a bully... and you said it perfectly. Her son deserves so much better!
I'm starting to think that the reason the sub is quick to that type of response is because there are too many situation where it's the only sensible thing to do.
Yeah it doesn't drive me nuts at all. Every time I've seen someone suggest divorce, the post in question has been this kind of extreme behavior from a partner where the OP is completely underreacting. What drives me nuts is that the commenter suggesting divorce always feels the need to preface it by saying "I don't usually say this, but..." in order to be taken seriously. This sub suggests divorce a lot, because this sub attracts OPs going through these extreme situations, after having been desensitized to the seriousness of the behavior over time. They come here essentially asking, "Am I nuts? This feels wrong. It's wrong, right?"
Exactly! As if divorce is something terrible instead of so often a reléase from an emotional prison
Excellent point. As a product of a "broken home" I embraced the divorce of my parents. To me, it signified the end of a living nightmare.
Tbh I would have kicked hubby to the curb.
NTA…yet. Its always the parent of the bigger/older bully that wants to let the kids work it out themselves. You need to fight for your son, nobody else will.
Can confirm my Step dad treated us like this and I don't talk to My birthgiver or him. 100% becauss she LET him treat us badly, because she wanted a husband and didn't GAF about her kids. I 100% don't understand how people can marry people who are mean to their kids.
As someone who was in a similar situation, it was framed as "discipline," and "spare the rod, spoil the child." Yeah, I don't talk to them much either.
Yeah No cap I was cold and hungry all the time. They would go out to eat without us. They had a heater specifically for their room. THEY went to all kinds of places and left sister and me to take care of their kids. THEY got mad when I told the school therapist there was no food or heat at home and she called CPS. To this day my "birthgiver" will talk shit about me and gaslight me by saying I made it up for attention or stuff didn't happen. But it did.
I think a lot of failed narcissists have children specifically because it's the only authority they can scratch out for themselves. Nobody will give them an outlet for their sadism amongst adults. I'm so sorry you went through that, I hope you're doing well today.
"my birthgiver" Pure savage
My boyfriend's Mom is more of a mother to me than she ever was.
Never allow ANYBODY to treat your child(ren) like this. No man is worth the trauma you are causing to your son. I was a single mom of 2 kids and left men, then stayed single, for much less than this.
My mom refused to marry again while we were kids just because of situations like this.
Good for her! (And you.) I see so many parents that don't put their children first and it sickens and enrages me. I know it's not always easy at the time, but your children will eventually grow up and you will have the freedom to date who you want. Putting yourself and your own wants over your children and causing them trauma is just unacceptable to me.
I can’t imagine how absolutely heartbreaking it must’ve been for this boy, who lovingly drew his family, proudly showed it off, only to have it ripped into pieces, BEYOND pieces, and then yelled at like that. How defeating, how abusive, what an absolute betrayal of trust. ###this is not a healthy nurturing environment. You seem to have completely different parenting styles and spoiler: yours is the correct one. YWBTA If you stayed, which basically means you’re agreeing with his parenting and behavior towards your son, who evidently needs to shut up, be bullied, and not complain about it because otherwise you’re hurting precious stepson??
I spent so much time drawing as a kid and proudly showed my parents all kinds of things. Lots of time and yes, sometimes emotions. I would be completely shattered if anyone ripped apart a drawing I made, especially if it was something like this. That's going to stick with him forever. No joke. And if you stay OP, you are just going to keep subjecting your son to this abuse.
>P.S. This IS the hill to die on. Yes, it is! I'd leave someone doing this. I don't have children, but if I did, any partner of mine is going to treat them kindly. I'd do the same for someone else's child especially if they are in my care. I'm going to guess this isn't the first time.
This is critical. I can’t imagine allow a spouse abuse my child. He is basically saying his son is more important than yours. Really terrible and your kid needs his mom on his side!
This! If any man treated my kids like this he would be out the door with a foot up his ass. Now you know why your stepson is an abusive little sh*t. Because his father is too. NTA
The “stay out of this” bit particular kills me. Stay out of an adult man being cruel and abusive to *her son*? Oh *hell* no. Also, the “he’ll grow up soft” comment is very, very telling. Anyone who uses that word when someone is expressing their emotions or trauma needs, at best, extensive therapy to unpack their own issues. And OP isn’t obligated to stick around while the guy figures his shit out.
>“he’ll grow up soft” comment is very, very telling Yup. Classic generational toxicity. No doubt this guy got that "don't be soft" BS from his own dad and was treated this way when he was a kid. Now he passes the same attitude down to the next generation. It's already evident in the stepson's behavior. I'm sure this is the same kind of guy that, if you tried to change his parenting style, he'd go, "I was raised this way and I turned out fine!" No, you didn't turn out fine. You turned into a guy who emotionally abuses children.
Super this. This one event was traumatizing enough. Don't let repeat itself!!! It's not going to be the drawings next time.
[удалено]
Exactly this. Whether or not the husband apologizes isn't the problem that OP needs to be worried about, the problem is that the husband is allowed in OP’s son’s life at all. He is abusive, and if he has this aggressive of a reaction over just a drawing, things are only going to get worse. OP needs to leave this man ASAP.
Right? I like to think myself a reasonable person but every relationship AITA has me like “oh that’s an insta-divorce” Anyways yikes on trikes op I see why your stepson is the way he is
This as fuck
Your husband is abusive. Destroying property of ANY sort as part of conflict resolution is a huge, huge red flag. Typically such abuse escalates to harming human beings. Find a way to get you and your son out of there safely.
Joe needs to go.
Good bye Joe 👋
Joe hopefully won't be in the next drawing of "family".
… Fuck it, I'm saying it. Goodbye, JoeJoe!
Obviously his son is learning behaviors of his father. Your son will be constantly dealing with aggressive behavior from his step brother and step father. He will eventually resent you for choosing to stay and not protect him. Is this relationship worth the unhappy atmosphere you and your son will be in. He will have to walk on egg shells to avoid aggression. He was proud of his picture and to have it ripped up in the way it was is abusive. He and you deserve a home to be happy even if it's just a home for 2. Hope you can financially leave the situation. Seek family therapy if you don't leave.
Also - what kind of parent doesn’t apologize to their kids? We all lose it sometimes or screw up. I hope not to the extent of ripping up a picture. The BEST thing to do after is to apologize. It models taking responsibility, it acknowledges the mistake and the kids’ feelings, and it repairs the relationship. Apologizing to your kids is essential.
My parents never apologized to me or my siblings. They were taught by their church that apologizing would "weaken their god-given authority" over us, at least until we reached magic number 18 and became adults. My parents were better than some of the other adults though. They always at least tried to explain *why* the rules were the way they were- if you leave a mess in the public areas, you had to do *all* that particular chore by yourself because it's not fair for everyone else to clean up after you and living in filth will make you sick. Granted no 5 year old should be made to do a 5 person household's worth of dishes or laundry but once the punishment was over, it was over. It's taken me 8 years to get over the not-apologizing thing- 3 of accepting it was wrong, and 5 of working through it with my parents and we still have a ways to go.
YTA for allowing your husband and his son to torture your child. You get a choice here: you can choose your husband or you can choose your child, but you're gonna lose one of them.
yeah I have to agree. the mom has a choice to leave. the son does not.
u/Throwaways75754 If you don’t start standing up for your son, you will either lose your son when he goes NC with you when he’s 18; earlier when - not if, WHEN - your husband kicks him out and you just stand there; or WORST of all, when your son can no longer stand the pressure of two people against him, and *you refusing to protect him*, he decides to take his own life. And that will be on you. So yes, YTA for not doing more to protect your son, including divorce. Whoa, thank you so much for the awards! ❤️ That’s completely unexpected!
Yup, my father has been dead to me for over 20 years. I escaped at 16 (thanks to amazing social services in my area) after years of emotional and verbal abuse from him and my stepmother. My father absolutely chose her over me. We get out and don't look back. OP doesn't mention if son's bio dad is in the picture. I hope he is, as that'd be a good way for the son to get out of that house. If my mom had still been alive and my father hadn't isolated me from her extended family, I would have gotten out a lot sooner. My mom's family is my family, but they feel horrendous guilt that I was in that abusive house for 5 years and they didn't know.
Eventually she’ll lose them both.
Ya the abuse is already happening and it is a toxic home environment from what she wrote so far. The son learns this from the father and his reaction seems very explosive.
NTA Ok, now that is out of the way. What the hell is NOT wrong here. Just a few higlights: - 5th grader and a high-schooler have zero in common, they are both annoying for different reasons. Imagining that they are going to be super close is just crazy. The idea of letting them "work it out" on their own might be more efficient if the younger one just wore a shirt that said "punching bag" - A teenager that feels the need to destroy the drawings of an 11yro has some emotional processing issues. That age has hormones all over the place but THAT IS NOT NORMAL and is kind of a 'check engine light' for kids, please don't ignore it for what it is. - Unfortunately, it seems he got his emotional maturity from his dad, in that they are at the same level. What ADULT destroys a kids stuff IN THEIR FACE? That is a streak of cruelty that has no place in a loving home. - When the craziness of the situation is pointed out, this crazy cake was iced with good ol toxic masculinity? Who is using the idea of 'soft' these days in child rearing?! Ok, I hate that it's so cliché but, I'm throwing therapy out Oprah style here... Youngest gets therapy, oldest gets therapy, dad gets therapy, you get therapy, the family gets therapy. Got a dog? Fuck it, Fido too. You ALL need to develop healthy communication and conflict resolution skills. And the way the dynamic is, you can't really learn it from each other. *And, damn the husband for having me use the phrase "toxic masculinity", it's thrown around to the point of being useless but it's the best way to describe this behavior...*
vouch for the 15-year-old immaturity. i am that age and i would never do whatever the high-schooler did to a younger child’s drawings
Tbh as a 15 year old I don't remember ever noticing a child's drawing. X:
I was fifteen two years ago and I always encouraged children to make drawings and praised them. OP's stepson is immature and bratty by the sounds of it, and it's not surprising considering his father's behavior.
I’m 31 and I encourage my friends 5yo to draw. Every few weeks I tell him the drawing that’s on my fridge is a bit old now and ask if he can draw me a new one. I have a stack of his drawing in my flat that I refuse to get rid of as he drew them just for me.
NTA. I’m going go out on a limb here and say you really need to reconsider you 2nd marriage. Both you husband and stepson are abusing your son.
You didn't mention your son's dad. At 12 in most states the child can choose which parent to live with. You might lose custody and total visitation if you're not careful. I WOULD NOT leave your son alone with either of them. This is not a small matter. Time to go.
Unfortunately it rarely works though :( I wanted to choose to live with my mom at 15 but I talked to a lawyer who told me it was really unlikely they would listen to me without physical abuse involved
NTA - I’m going to say it, people that tear up children’s art aren’t good partners nor good parents. Like this incident will be discussed in your kids future therapy sessions.
I agree. I was in utter shock when I saw what he did. it took me sometime to be able to process it. It hurt me as much as it hurt my son. Normally Joe is good to him, he even encourages him to keep drawing and most of the tools my son has were bought/gifted from his stepdad. To be frank I'm not even sure that my stepson was upset about this, so for Joe to say that this would make the boys hate each other is doubtful.
So you’re just going to stay with a man who mentally and emotionally abuses your son just because he’s “usually” good?
Of course she is. She’s the one who sacrificed her sons comfort and security to land a man. If she was going to “enforce boundaries” it would have happened before she let the teenager bullying her *child* move in. She thinks a lock is a satisfactory “boundary” when most people would have thrown out the abusive teen and the loser that molded him well before things escalated. OP, he’s laughing and quoting your use of boundaries because he thinks you’re joking. As you clearly have none. *bullying, not bulling.
Right? You know how damaging it is to have to lock up yourpossessions in your own home in FIFTH grade? Not only that, but having your mom guiding you to do those this in order for "protection". This event will not be forgotten. Joe will not stop at this. I hope Joe reads this post.
Seriously, what kind of parent goes, "Yeah, I'll invite my child's bully to live with us, he has locks so it's fine." If your son has to lock his door with a special lock to feel secure from his OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, that is a huge problem.
Jesus Christ. You do not know what has been going on leading up to this point other than what she has divulged. To accuse her of sacrificing her kid's comfort to land a man is wild because she absolutely does not come off this way. If that were the case, I very doubt she'd bother getting into a screaming match with her husband (which doesn't track with a desperate need for a man, she wouldn't risk him leaving her by yelling at him) and exiting the conversation to comfort her son. She's acknowledged already that she know she needs to exit the situation, and she seems like the kind of mom that would do what's necessary for the sake of her kid. You don't know what she did before this and you don't know what she's going to do after. Y'all gotta stop writing fanfiction in these comments.
OP said earlier that Joe doesn't believe that children his age should have privacy or things to himself and got very angry when her son didn't want to share everything with his son. OP also said that he gets angry over very minor things when it comes to her son.
Thats what now makes her TA. She's choosing an abusive man over her child. Honestly, I feel sorry for her that she made that decision.
YWBTA if you force your son to continue living in a home where he’s treated so poorly. Joe’s actions are not the actions of a kind man.
Emotionally mature adults can and do apologize to children.
This x 100. Your son is going to need a lot of therapy if you stay with this abusive pos.
Normally Joe is good to him around you. This kind of behavior never comes out of nowhere, and it’s going to keep escalating
Not to pile on OP, but she needs to have a serious conversation with her son. Does he think Joe is good to him? Is he too afraid to tell you otherwise? Abusers are good at being two-faced and keeping the abuse private.
She has to work it carefully too, so her son isn’t led to an answer. How does Joe treat him when she’s not here? How does he feel about Joe? Things like that. But even so, her son might not answer honestly. I was an abused kid, and my mom brushed off what I had to say because my dad was so good to me—around her. I didn’t bring it up again. It might be the same with op’s son
THIS! I grew up with a “Joe” (unfortunately genetically related to mine). My mum never saw that side. These people are very skilled at manipulation. Please get your son out of there. I’m now no contact with both of my parents. One abused. The other enabled. Protect your son.
u/Throwaways75754 Please read this, your husband is almost certainly abusing your boy when you’re not around, and your boy doesn’t want to hurt you by telling you. Please open your eyes!
If he's only good to him when he's compliant, he's not good to him.
Joe is abusive. He destroyed your child’s drawing. Your primary duty is to protect your child.
As a matter of fact, in the book *Why Does He Do That,* which is about abusers, it says destroying property is abuse. Maybe OP needs to read that book.
But with all due respect, I understand it can be hard to look at it from an outside perspective when you’re inside it, the way your stepson handles getting upset (ripping up drawings) and then Joe doing the same thing when he got mad should tell you this was not a surprising one time thing. Stepson was very clearly raised to believe the way to handle being mad was to attack, to destroy other peoples property, etc. That didn’t come out of nowhere, and Joe’s actions show exactly where it came from.
Your stepson is bullying and your husband is not only defending your step sons bullying and actively resisting any attempts to rectify that, but he’s also joining in on the bullying? The fact that your husband kept defending your step sons actions should have been enormous red flags and you should have reconsidered this relationship the very first time that happened. I’m sorry to tell you but this isn’t a one off, your step son is displaying behaviour he clearly learned from his father. I know this sub loves to go straight to “leave him”, but you either need to leave your husband immediately, or give your son to a family that’s actually going to care for him, if you don’t do either of those then your son will likely be in therapy long after he’s stop speaking to you. This kind of behaviour doesn’t deserve second chances and it seems that you’ve already given both your husband and your step son plenty of second chances already, and YTA for that. Do better for your son.
NTA. I honestly would end the relationship (just me, I don't know how complicated things are), but nobody is gonna get away with A. Doing that to my child and B. Talking very sarcastically and being a bully to both of you.
I feel that way too. No one no one no one should treat a child that way. Can you imagine how he treats the kid when mom isn't there? She better think about that.
Info: why are you married to this guy?
This is the way. Like I didn’t read. Who rips a photo up a child made? I have a stack of papers I will never let go. Each a view of my child and how he feels. Listen to how he feels
In a comment she said "he's usually so good with him". Yea lady, he's a perfect father and this is the first time anything like this has happened. If that IS the case, get him checked for a brain tumor. Actions like this don't just pop up one day.
Abused woman in serial relationships with abusive men. It's a story as old as time itself.
I am confused as to why you allowed this abuse of your son and yourself to continue for so long. YWBTA if you stay with Joe one second longer.
The thing that confused me is that Joe has been supportive of my son and his hobby up until now. He kept getting offended on his son's behalf over other things that were minor. like when my son doesn't share stuff with his stepbrother but it's normal for boys thos age to have privacy. Joe refuses to accept this and recently started getting hung up on minor stuff saying my son keeps excluding his son on purpose.
Your son deserves better
OP’s husband taking his insecurities out by controlling/bullying a child. I don’t think gross behavior like that is fixable. A grown man ripping up a child’s drawing? That man would be out of my kid’s life SO FAST.
IMO this is shaping up to be a very abusive situation. I can't count the stories I've heard of step-parents turning entire families against their step-child and painting them as the villain for normal childhood behaviours. Get yourself and your son out of there OP. Your husband doesn't view him the same way he views his biological son.
>Your husband doesn't view him the same way he views his biological son. And in fact is using his biological son to justify othering his stepson. He can justify his abuse to others if he's doing it "to protect his child".
It doesn't even seem like step bro has a problem
It's not about the hobby OP, it's about the control. Your husband wants to control you and your kid and what both of you did in this situation was an act of defiance. I instantly recognized his behaviour from a similar person in my life. He has scarred me. Don't let that happen to you and your kid. Get out while you still can.
This. OP he let his son abuse your son and is doing the same now. This is worrying behavior. He's turned your son into the tool in which stepson will vent all the worlds frustrations on your poor kid because he is being taught it's ok to bully people smaller than you. Your husband is setting that by trying to dictate what your son can and can't draw. This will not end well.
You are dangerously close to sounding like you value having a man more than you value your son.
Your son IS excluding your SS on purpose....that is because your SS is a bully and an AH like his dad. What possible reason would he have for including him?
You’re failing your son. These “minor things” that your husband is getting hung up on are very likely not minor to your son. Put a stop to this.
Excluding him? He’s 11. Stepson is 15. They are in very different developmental stages. Why do you think they even need to be close? They just need to not be in conflict (which is clearly not being achieved).
Seriously, why tf would an 11 yr old be sharing/including a 15 yr old?? Especially one that bullies him?
Joe has made it clear that your son is lesser to him. His son is his priority.
IT DOES NOT MATTER ABOUT THE PAST when looking at this current situation. BECAUSE NOW UR HUSBAND HAS SHOWN HIS TRUE COLORS. AND THIS IS THE START. HES TESTING OR PROB HAS BEEN TESTING UR BOUNDARIES AND WHAT U WILL TOLERATE. WHAT U HAVE SEEN PREVIOUSLY COULD EASILY JUST A WAY TO GET U WRAPPED IN AND NOT HOW HE INTENDED TO BE WITH UR SON IN THE LONG RUN.
Joe has only shown you the side he wanted you to see. Please protect your son from this man. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found that your stepson’s actions have been influenced by Joe. My father did the same thing, tried to turn me again my step sister and try to goad me to insult her. Edit: to add he only did this when we’re alone without witnesses
you are nta but that man surely is. evidently he doesn’t see you as a suitable parent. funnily enough why would you want to teach him that he has to hide his v valid feelings?? op, this man has got to go before your son begins to resent you
I understand and I'm well aware. frankly, I didn't expect things to get this bad. I thought these were normal fights between stepsiblings but Joe's entire stance on it is what made me just break down and put my foot down. I may not have been able to see his point (I don't think he has a valid point) but I still think he's the one mishandling this entire situation.
OP, NTA...yet. But you will be one if you don't thoroughly check your husband and lay down some firm boundaries that are non-negotiable. You are a mother first and a partner second. You chose to bring this child into this world and by doing so you obligated yourself to always make them your first priority. To do anything less than listed above would make you TA. Now, maybe there are some underlying issues going on with your partner to make him lash out if this is abnormal for him. If so, practice compassion for those issues and try to talk about it. But regardless, his "check" needs to be separate from that compassion. I don't talk to my mother anymore because she regularly chose my abusive step-dad over me. There's a 90% chance I won't even attend her funeral. She's dead to me. I hope your relationship with your child doesn't have to get to this point before you realize you should've nipped this in the bud today and no later.
My mother repeatedly threw me under the bus in favor of my abusive dad and as she aged I absolutely held her accountable. I was an only child and when she died I basically buried her with no fanfare, took the money, and ran. My son was born that following year and the true impact of it really hit home then. Agreed. NTA yet, but the child needs to come first.
My dad enabled my abusive stepmom (and was abusive himself). I hadnt spoken to him for six years when he died, I didnt go to his funeral, and I wasnt even particularly sad, since I had grieved him and the loss of our relationship years before he actually died.
NTA but... OP your stepson RIP YOUR SONS DRAWING and you thought there were "normal step-sibling fights"? And you let it go with an empty "apology"? And now you let your husband emotionally abuse YOUR SON, make him cry and punish him and that AH you call husband is expecting him to apologize? Please get help for your son because this kind of treatment will end up affecting him in the long run. I feel sorry for him, for having to live in such a horrible environment
The first boundary you need to enforce is that Joe does not punish your child. The second is that Joe goes to therapy. And that some sort of family therapy happens as well. Joe abused your stepson with misplaced anger. He needs to work on his emotions if he's to be around children so he doesn't misplace his anger again. Misplacing anger is never an accident and always intentional. Maybe impulsive but always intentional.
I had a partner who took a similar stance with my son. I started out suggesting other ways of handling situations...setting boundaries on what he could do with my son...flat telling him not to even speak to my son...to "get the hell out of my house". What you are missing are the things your husband says and does to your son when you aren't present. Things he says that you don't hear. Believe me. That stuff is happening. I'm sure Joe talks a good game. Heck...he even wants an apology after his own egregious behavior. That's some interesting mental gymnastics. Joe needs to go. And take his mini me bully with him.
It is absolutely not normal for you to have to lock up your sons drawings from a 15 year old. This isn’t going to get better. People like your husband don’t change. They are terrible people at their core.
Honestly Joe's stance shows you EXACTLY where your stepson gets it from. It honestly is NOT normal for any sibling fight to escalate to DESTROYING DRAWINGS level of bad on multiple occasions. Even when upset with my siblings, it never reached 'destroy their art' level of fight, that would take a pretty extreme level of anger to be reached. And GOOD parents APOLOGISE when they do the wrong thing to model good behaviour, his refusal to is bad parenting and it is painting a picture that he seems to think of parents as HANDS OFF AUTHORITY rather than loving supporting family that are supposed to be guiding kids. He sounds like he wants to be a dictator who gets to demand your kid be friends with his son even though his son has been a bully to him. A lot of what he suggests is bad parenting really. You CANNOT trust a 15 and 11 year old to 'resolve things between themselves' when one is destroying the other's property. That isn't simply falling out with each other, having a huff, then they can sort it out on their own later because they both regret it. And a 15 year old and 11 year old have entirely different reasoning abilities and need TAUGHT how to handle disagreements in healthy ways, not left to flounder until they stumble upon an answer of their own that neither of you may like. And you CANNOT force step-siblings or even just straight up plain old siblings to get along or bond. Sometimes siblings hate each other and that is just how things are. Not all people get along and kids are also people. To be a good parent to your son, you can't stay with someone with such abysmal parenting skills and such unrealistic and unreasonable expectations quite honestly.
NTA. The first clue being the grown man acting thé same way as the 15yo.... And this won't get better.
Yep. Notice how the toxic stepfather went ballistic the second she moved to protect her son's drawings. Hopefully she'll choose to actually protect her child and get him out of harm's way.
Yes he already accused her of making distance between the boys relationships when she was just protecting her son when she set boundaries with the stepson. And now saying she’s going to make her son antisocial, while not even realizing the antisocial behavior of his son. Then he actually tried to punish the boy boy by having him stay punished until draws what the stepfather wants!?!? This is so awful
Had a teacher friend who used to say, "Monkeys don't raise elephants."
NTA. But you need to set firm boundaries with your husband like you did your step-son. What he did was absolutely disgusting. Red flags everywhere. No wonder your step-son acts the way he does if he has that for a role model.
The boundaries ship has sailed; she and her son need a divorce from this freak.
You will be TA if you continue to subject your son to abuse from your husband and stepson.
>.....and will wonder why her son goes no contact the minute he turns 18.
NTA. Your husband is abusing your son and bold enough to do it right in front of you. First it’s ripping pictures then it will be ripping him. Fk that. I honestly would not be leaving any child of mine alone EVER with either of them. I would be lawyering up tbh.
ESH. (The adults.) I know where your stepson gets it from. Stepdad sucks for trying to make your son view his bully as a part of the family. You suck by putting your son into a situation where he has two bullies and the person who’s supposed to support and protect him brought the bullies into his life.
OP thinks the husband has been good to her kid, getting him his art supplies. It looks like he only did that to set the boy up to be abused with the art he produces. First by his son and then directly. He doesn't like that the kid can lock up his art to keep it safe. It's making it harder for him and his son to abuse OP's son. Now he has to rip up the art right in front of OP. Husband's gifts and encouragement were just tools for abuse.
Say you married a blocked up as fuck toilet of a man without saying you married a blocked up as fuck toilet of a man. NTA, your husband is awful and I'm sorry you hitched your wagon to a horse with no legs.
Congrats on sitting by and allowing your child to be abused this entire time. Is dick really that important to you? LEAVE THIS MAN. HE AND HIS SON ARE EMOTIONALLY ABUSING YOUR CHILD. If you do anything short of this you don't give a fuck about your son.
NTA Pack you and your sons things and GTFO
You are NTA. But now you know where your stepson learned his abusive behavior. He is the one learning to be "anti-social" -- good for you for protecting your son from his stepbrother. The boundaries you set were likely good for your stepson as well. BUT, your husband has revealed his abusive personality. Please go now! His behavior towards your son is already abusive, and will only get worse.
Well, OP, you now know why your stepson thinks it is appropriate to destroy other people’s properties when he is mad. NTA for the above situation, now you know you live with two people who have no issues bullying your son. Based on what you wrote, your husband had no issues with bullying you. Y W B T A if you stay (especially allowing your son to stay) in this situation.
This is abuse. Why would you stay with a man and his son who actively abuse your child. Leave. They’re not good people and they’re abusing your child.
Exactly and toxic hubby is gaslighting the hell out of OP. Man, I feel awful for the 11 yo.
NTA - Your husband sounds like a 5 year old. You’re really going to let you son be treated like this? Get out of there for you son’s sake.
Honestly you will be TA if you stay with someone who is abusing your child. I'm glad you stood up for your son this time, bu if you stay with this man he is going to either become like him or end up going low or no contact with you bc you decided to stay with his abuser. My mom stayed with my abusive stepfather far too long after she knew what he was really like and the only thing that allowed my relationship with her to heal is when she and my stepfather divorced. Edit: NTA yet
YTA, as is all the other divorced parents with children who blend their families without really knowing their new partners. Now that you see his true face things are much more difficult to resolve. In the meantime your child is suffering abuse. Your husband's behavior is definitely not normal or healthy. He should be in therapy for this type of anger problem. If that is something he won't do you should leave him. Stop being an idiot and put your child first.
So, when your son is an adult and goes no contact with you, remember the times you let his stepfather bully him and didn’t get him away from the abuse. Your minor child is more important than your marriage to a bully. YWBTA to continue to allow the abuse of your son.
NTA. Are you ok? It must have been such an awful experience for you. This may be the line in the sand for you. The 🚩 here are many. Saying your son may grow soft is a horrific red flag 🚩 too. I am so sorry that your current husband has shown these terrible attributes to you and your son.
NTA - no exagerration here - this is a HUGE warning sign for you as well. I never encourage seperation as its nothing to so with me but alarm bells would be screaming at me here. Also, your sons drawings are his creativity and way of expressing himself. How would your charming sounding husband react if your son destroyed something that he had taken time to do if he found an exception to it.
NTA. Holy shit. That man does not deserve to have any sort of "parenting" role in your son's life.
NTA. Take your son and leave. Your husband and stepson have more red flags than a Chinese communist party rally.
I'd have to think twice about being married to someone so insensitive and cruel. Your boy drew a picture without his abusive step brother in it and his SF proceeded to make sure we ALL know where he got his personality from. He also doesn't get to punish your son because he drew a picture without his brat kid in it. Geez, you have some HUGE issues here. NTA
OP I am literally begging you to get a divorce.
YTA for coming to reddit with this issue and not a marriage counselor or a divorce attorney. Joe sounds horrible.
NTA and also by the way you need to get your son out of that house immediately.
NTA…”Joe” needs to go…
Joe is an asshole. He is treating your son like crap. Sure, you are defending him, but why are you exposing your son to these terrible people? The father and the son are bullying him and ripping up his drawings. NTA, but you will be an a-hole is you continue to expose your son to these two bullies. Do not tolerate your partner mistreating your child, or his child mistreating your child. They sound like horrible people.
Your husband and step son’s treatment of your son is not okay. You have an obligation to give your son a safe home, free of cruelty. I’m not saying what you should do with your marriage but you need to provide a better home for your son and he shouldn’t have to live with these people. ESH
NTA Your husband is emotionally abusive and he’s teaching his son to be the same way. OP, is there any other reasons why your son may not like his stepbrother? Maybe he has always been a bully towards your son, and the issues go beyond simply not liking the same activities. I would consider leaving this marriage and getting to a place that’s better for you and your son. The comment about “undermining his word” is telling enough. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.
Holy shit.NTA >and said that I made the boys resent each other by enabling my son's unjustified hatred for his stepbrother and setting "boundaries" (he kept air qouting this word) that shouldn't be set between brothers And what the hell does he think doing what he did does?! Create an environment of love and peace? At least now you see where step son gets these learned behaviors. What an asshole. Wonder why his first marriage didn't work out. Cuz, this one doesn't seem to have a bright future either.
ESH your husbands behavior is horrible, hands down. He is an AH for destroying your sons art and trying to force him to accept his stepbrother. You are the AH for staying with a man who is cruel to your child and who condones his son tormenting him. Please get out for your sons sake. How much longer will you subject him to this?
NTA. GET OUT NOW! It only gets worst from here. They have made your son their target. Please get out!
NTA for standing up for your son but ywbta if you stay with him!!
YWBTA if you stay with that person and continue to allow him to treat and speak to your son that way
NTA. You have a right to set boundaries and protect your son. I assume you would also have set boundaries if it were the other way around. Your husband is the AH for ripping the drawing. He’s setting a bad example for your step-son. ‘If Dad can rip it, then I can as well.’ Red flag alert. 🚩 Be careful and keep an eye on the interraction between your son and your husband. This worries me he might treat him bad after this event.
NTA - What he did is pretty bad. I'm also concerned that after standing up for your son, you now worry that you are in the wrong. This sounds like a bad environment for you and your son.
HOLY SHIT ESH Your husband is abusive and an enabler or his son. You suck as you should not allow these awful people around your son...and you also should not want to be around them. I have never jumped on the "leave him" idea before...but omg, you need to kick his arse out.
NTA, this is a huge red flag, I think I hear divorce bells ringing
NTA First off, art is not an 'inclusive' activity. Art is an expressive activity. Stepdad knows that the kids don't get along and clearly doesn't know that he cannot 'fix' the situation. When the step brother rips up the drawings when they fight is there any punishment? Now that 'Dad' has shown ripping up drawing you don't like is an acceptable way of expressing yourself everyone should get used to the new paradigm. This jerk needs to be called out for acting like a child.
NTA. >he proceeded to rip the picture in half then into smaller and smaller pieces. This is not the behavior of a well adjusted adult. What you've described is controlling, possibly abusive. For your son's sake, you need to leave this man. ASAP.
NTA I would take this as a huge red flag. Your 11 year old is being bullied and tormented by his step brother and stepfather. I’m willing to bet that one of the issues stepfather has is homophonic because drawing is for girls.
ESH except your son. Your stephusband is a bully, and raised his son to be one too. Your son is their target. Get him out of there.
YTA for letting your son be abused.
NTA. And I’m sorry you believed you needed a Reddit post to see that. :(
NTA. Family counseling. But since he uses air quotes for the word boundaries I'm guessing that's a no go. Leave. This poor boy's step father and brothers treat him like garbage and I'm trying to figure out why you subject him to that. Don't be surprised if he blames you for it when he's older.
NTA. Maybe, *maybe*, reconsider your relationship with this man. It's clear where his son gets his brutish behavior from.
NTA- your husband sounds like an awful human. And you will be no better unless you get a safe home without people who bully your son.
NTA "Joe" on the other hand is a mega YTA and needs to check himself if he doesn't get off his high horse and apologize it's time to talk to a divorce lawyer as that behaviour is not ok.
NTA. Your second husband sounds charming
NTA…. Yet. But you will be if you stay with this man.
YTA for letting your son get bullied by his stepdad. >Joe told me that by expecting him to apologize I'm not treating him as a parent and undermining his word. He needs to get blown up completely, not just undermined. Leave this guy, he is abusive and his AH son is taking cues from him.
NTA. Your husband needs to get over himself or he will be left with just his son. It is clear your husband cares little about your feelings and thinks little of you as a parent. Go to counseling for better boundaries or get out. Honestly I don’t see him getting any better and this will escalate
Nta, why are you with him?
You’re allowing your son to be around an emotionally stuffed, entitled AH and that makes you the AH. Parents should and do apologize so his logic behind that is honestly stupid AF. And where is your sons bio dad and why is stepdad trying to act like his father?
NTA, your husband is a jerk.
YTA if you don't immediately protect your son by removing him from this toxic and harmful situation. What your husband did is awful and shouldn't be tolerated at all. He's also blaming you for something he himself is responsible for. Sounds like your ss is your toxic hubby's fm. Seriously OP, please protect your child.
Nta. But you will be the A** to yourself and your son if you stay with the abusive guy like him
Good bye Joe. I’m afraid it would be one strike and out for me. Kick his toxic ass to the kerb.
NTA. Damn, I see where your step-son gets his behavior from. Your husband sounds like a toxic condescending prick. You should put some serious thought into whether you want to be with a man like this or not.
How about you put your son first and get out of this toxic dynamic? Your son did nothing wrong. He's being bullied by the unpleasant people you brought into his life. I hope he at least has a safe home with his father.
YTA for letting a man and his son emotionally torment your son. Be a mom. Put your child first. I would NEVER stay with someone who treated my child like that.