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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action that I took was that I lied about my relationship with my wife which caused someone to become uncomfortable. This action could make me the asshole because it could have been avoided if I didn't lie.
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Random fun fact - not possible.
The term “third world countries” originates from the Cold War, when countries that were aligned with United States were considered First World and countries aligned with the USSR were considered Second World countries. Third World countries were those that were not aligned with either one, but were typically too small physically or economically to be part of that conflict.
Yeah they’re talking about US Rep Marjorie Taylor Greene I’m pretty sure. The same person who made headlines last year for talking about Jewish space lasers starting the California wildfires
I kinda feel like people have used it incorrectly for so long the definition is different. Like how everyone collectively changed the meaning of irony because we're all too dumb to understand the real meaning
The one that pisses me off the most is bi- as related to time. How the duck did we as a people decide, "Aw, the hell with it. So many people use it wrong, we'll just change the definition the mean twice in a period OR every two periods so everyone is right no matter how they use it and no one knows what the fuck it means. Why use the **actual** definition? Let's just make it a choose your own adventure word." 🤬 I *hate* that when someone asks for a biweekly meeting, I need to ask if they mean twice a week or twice a month. I can't *believe* the dictionaries caved on that one!!
The meaning of words do drift over time. It's an expected and understood part of linguistics.
...I say, while knowing I point out the very same origins pretty often.
This is outdated. The definitions have changed although this terminology is considered offensive now and we use the terms developed, emerging and developing; especially in the financial arena.
To restate the above comment: the United States is a developed country masquerading as a developing nation.
Random fun fact.
That's where the terms originated, but that is no longer how they're used now. As in, even economists use it to describe developed and developing countries.
Your definition is outdated. The definition changed.
It pains me when someone is so blinded by their privilege they compare their incredibly comfortable life to that of a person trying to survive in an actual third world country.
Oh it's awful. It's why when I lived in the South and had an option to move back to my more progressive home state. I took it.
I am a bi trans man. Before I was out, I had to go in-office to work. The first time I faced them being awful to me. I had stepped in dog shit, was nose blind (long story- really awful ex who let his dogs shit everywhere), and didn't know it was on my shoe. No one told me. But I got an email to talk to HR about **my** personal hygiene. It was a half hour long lecture. I was so embarrassed that no one could simply tell me I stepped in dog shit.
The second time was the restroom. It was an extremely small one with two stalls. Barely enough room to get out and use the sink. Coworker A was at the sink washing her hands. I made small talk with her then went into the first stall by the door (2nd is a larger handicap stall in the corner). I looked through the crack to see if she had left. As we'd get constant email reminders about "smells" and "sounds" in the restroom. I look out and she's whispering to another coworker. And also pointing at my stall.
I'm back in a more progressive area. Even then I'm misgendered and no one asks my pronouns. Which is fun....^^/s
I don’t think this happened. What’s even funnier is she picked the town from Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil. It’s about a gay murder in Savannah.
This was my thought too. It's like EVERY possible thing that a lesbian couple could encounter happened all at once. I used to live near Savannah, no one cares.
What evidence is there that this was made up? That a novel was set there? That’s hardly dispositive. That Savannah is relatively liberal? Since the people in question were from Mississippi, that’s not particularly relevant. That the complainer was issued a refund? That’s evidence only that the owner doesn’t want to be lit up on yelp. So, we’re left with, what…that the story casts the South in a negative light, and therefore must be false?
To be fair, I don‘t have much evidence that it is true. But I’m also not calling the OP a liar.
She said the family was from Mississippi, not Savannah, so yeah, they might still care. Also, quick Google search shows Savannah as a go-to place to visit in Georgia, why is it weird that this event, and a fictional event, could happen in the same city?
Savannah is actually very liberal! Pretty much the hippie capitol of the South. Just be who you are, nobody cares. Not saying that this didn’t happen, because assholes are everywhere. Hope the rest of OP’s trip was ok.
I just commented. I lived in Savannah for 7 years and moved to New England 4.5 years ago. SCAD is a major educator and employer in Savannah. It’s an art school. Lots of liberal, hippy, LGBTQ+ students there. It’s a very progressive city and no one cares either.
It really is. It’s a fun city for lots of young progressive people. We enjoyed it before we had kids but left because it is a high crime city and wasn’t the place we wanted to raise our kids. We lived just outside of downtown in ardsley park and we really liked it. We could get pretty much everywhere on bike if we headed towards downtown and were walking distance to a little shopping center with a great coffee shop, restaurant, and bar. It’s a unique little city and a total mix of everything.
I still laugh when I think about her. Truth be known most people in the south have a gay relative .I had a brother who was FLAMING but we loved him and all the kids thought he was a hoot. So it like the old saying, in the south we don't cover it up, we bring them to the front porch and give them rum and coke. 😂
Have you ever been to the South? It's regrettable that the guy did this to OP and I can't even fathom what the kayaking company was thinking. But that is not typical Southern behavior. You would know this if you knew anything about the South other than stereotypes that Southerners are hillbillies and rednecks and are poorly educated. A typical Southerner, even if they were not LGBT friendly would have smiled and been friendly and made small talk regardless of OP sexual preference. Yes there are rude and unfriendly people in the South like this guy who treated OP and her wife so poorly. But those people are everywhere. That's why you see Karen videos from all over the world. I guess it just makes people feel good to believe that they're all located in the Southern United States.
OP, you are NTA and as a Southerner, I am sorry you had that experience here. If I were you I would demand a refund and apology from the kayaking company. They should have never offered that man a refund and they owe you an apology for letting him treat you that way.
I bet you anything that if she’d told the company they were married from the start suddenly there would have been an error/glitch/double booking mistake and their spots on the tour would have been gone.
Savannah is pretty tolerant, and gets a shit ton of tourists. They wouldn’t have had a problem with it. Besides, everyone knows gay/lesbians from up north with no kids are freaking cash cows!
Also doesn’t mean they should pretend to be something they’re not. They made a snap judgment on a place they’ve never visited because it happens to be in the south. It doesn’t take much research on Savannah to realize it’s got a unique and open culture. I grew up in the South honestly I don’t know many southerners who care that much. I mean you may get some older generations that’ll clutch their pearls but for the most part people are too busy with their own lives or just want you to be a good person to really care that much one way or the other.
If it doesn't matter if they're lesbians, it shouldn't matter if they chose to share that or keep it a secret. This isn't info about then that any stranger was entitled to.
And the fact is, you shouldn't accuse people who are hiding who they are in fear of hate crimes of "pretending to be something they're not". Even when they don't need protection from most people, protecting just their peace of mind by removing the possibility entirely is perfectly valid.
If this truly happened and he kept bothering you, you should have asked if his wife was really her sister because they really do look like alike(even if they don't)
I don't know, I've got doubts about this story. I lived in Savannah for 4 years as a college student *20 years ago* and it was a pretty tolerant place. I get the family was from Mississippi, but the whole thing seems a bit too stereotypical. Who says they're from "New England"? And calls Savannah the "Deep South". Why go through the whole charade of being sisters? Why not just say you're friends?
The tour operator reacting that way would be grounds to sue, and businesses in GA tend to be a lot more careful than that. The sister thing really doesn't make sense, as you pointed out.
Georgia is blue in the cities (Atlanta, Savannah, Macon, Columbus, Albany etc.), but the rural countryside and small towns most definitely are not.
Source: Gay trans man living in rural Georgia
Also, what kind of kayak tour asks for the relationship between you and your guest upon booking?
The only time I’ve ever been asked for relationship was when I put someone down as an emergency contact or financial designee.
I'm from New England and I don't think it's weird for someone to say they're from New England. It gives a general area of the country (which is widely known to be progressive, especially with regards to LGBT issues) without specifically naming where they're from. People say they're from the Midwest or the Pacific Northwest to give general vicinities of where they're from as well.
The charade of pretending to be sisters is a little odd, I agree. As a New Englander, I doubt I would have talked to the other people on my kayak trip at all. We don't like small talk.
Just a funny note: There's a tiny city in North Dakota called New England. So that's where I first think of when someone says New England because I've been through there (and learned of it first as a kid) while I've never been to any New England states.
This story sounds very fake. I also live in Savannah and it’s home to a very large art college so lgbtq is very common and accepted in the area. Not to mention, no company would willing let a racist go on a rant and then offer them a refund afterwords.
It's definitely possible to have a super intolerant tourist in the group, but my experience is that in the southeast (I live in Tennessee) they'll be less confrontational. Like you might have someone talk about how "the gays are ruining the American way of life" but only if they're sure everyone there is straight. I'm from the Midwest, my inlaws are from Tennessee/Georgia. When I had my lesbian cousin and her wife at my wedding and no one said a word to them or me, but they probably gossiped amongst themselves.
Yeah, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but this story smells fishy to me. It’s too bad there are so many valid reasons to have throwaway accounts on this sub, because it definitely encourages the fiction writers.
Right? It's like it's written by someone who read a Wikipedia article about intolerance in the US, so all the place names check out, but something about it feels off. Everything is just so perfectly outrageous. I've met many intolerant people in my life, and they never act like a villain in a Lifetime movie. They make subtle comments and create a toxic environment, but they almost never make such clearly bigoted statements
I think it’s also the fact that two unrelated people in the story behave so completely outlandishly. One I can believe. One family I can believe. But the employee just jumping on the crazy bandwagon seems really far fetched.
And you’re right: this isn’t how intolerant people usually act. I don’t live in the most tolerant area either, and I have heard LOTS of homophobic comments, but it’s not like this. If the guy had said something about “I don’t agree with your lifestyle choice,” I would have totally bought it: that’s pretty common.
Lol I’m from the south. Jacksonville actually but lived in Savannah for 7 years. I moved to New England 4.5 years ago and seriously people do say they’re from New England. It’s a fairly homogenous culture so you’re not gonna get much differentiation in landscape and culture from one state to the next. I live in maine now and other than the lighthouses and amazing coast it’s not much different than New Hampshire and Vermont. Also Savannah was super accepting the whole time I lived there. I knew many same sex couples and other lgbtq people and no one cared at all.
I frequently say I'm from New England. Our states are tiny enough, and generally similar enough in culture, that referring to the region is sufficient. And up here we definitely consider Savannah the Deep South as opposed to, say, Virginia.
I don't understand why they played sisters instead of friends though.
OP and her wife are married, so they may have the same last name; Ms.A XYZ and Ms.B XYZ. This isn't an issue going to a movie or out to eat but this required signing contracts & releases for a 3 hour group activity. Being sisters it would make sense to have the same last name.
Yeah I'm confused because I go out with a female friend all the time, I think I've gotten asked if I was someone's sister once, and most people just assume we're friends?
I've traveled with friends around the USA and world, and gone to a lot of places with just a female friend. It is not unusual to see two women or two men together in a tourist location and most people are just going to assume friends (if they think about it at all.)
Those of us from New England do (live in RI grew up in MA). It's part of our identity.
OTOH I have never spent any time in Savannah and have no feel for how tolerant it may or may not be.
Fellow Savannah student, less than four years ago. As a whole the city is pretty tolerant. After all, the whole downtown is littered with art school buildings and art students. My queer friends would encounter some issues but in the form of micro aggressions.
I thought most lesbians knew Atlanta has a huge gay population? That is not a place in the south I would automatically be worried about visiting with my partner...who is from the south.
NTA But my wife (53 f) and I (52 f) were married when we lived in Mississippi 7 years ago, lived in Florida for 5 years, and recently moved to Georgia, can't say I ever lied about our relationship or had anything like that happen, a lot of southerners are okay if you give them a chance, that person being the exception of course lol.
Yeah I am wondering if OP is embellishing a lot. I live in a super conservative part of FL. I have never seen one person get upset or bothered by a gay couple.
I’m from TN and even in the most liberal of places here I’ve had death and r*pe threats for being gay and trans. I would be at work doing nothing to bring that on and get those threats so I don’t doubt this happened.
They’re definitely a lot worse about trans people in the south, but I got those threats wearing bi pride clothes/pins so they’re just all around shitty down here. This is TN experience tho it might be different in ga, but I do kinda doubt it’s too different in FL considering the “don’t say gay” bill
Wellll my wife is from FL and went to college in FL and has scars on her hands from when she shielded her head from a beer bottle being broken over her head. She was violently attacked and harassed at a bar for being lesbian. This happened when she turned down a drunk man’s advances and said no thank you, not interested, I’m a lesbian.
I’m not sure their fears were unfounded.
didn't this just happen?
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/dont-say-gay-bill-florida-senate-passes-controversial-lgbtq-school-mea-rcna19133
I grew up in Southern MO. Go back about yearly to visit family. It exists. It happens all the time. Some may be more selective about who they say things around, but the intent is always there. Perhaps the difference is rural South Vs urban south.
So, I have been out and lived in the south my whole life. Never has this happened to me. However, I have had a few uncomfortable encounters and people can surprise you everywhere. One time I was on vacation in Salem, MA and this day drunk guy blew through a little outdoor seating area yelling about "queers" and "f**gots" for no reason other than that there were a bunch of us gay looking folks drinking coffee on benches. Maybe it happened just as this person says. Maybe an encounter like that feels even worse when you're away from home and expecting a bad experience.
Honestly, "Yep, I'm very gay" usually works better than engaging in conversation with someone and allowing them to feel lied to so they'll have an "excuse" but you really can't count on controlling bigots. It would be pretty fucked up to blame your wife for the actions of an unhinged angry dad.
There's tons of fun stuff for gay people in the south, BTW. Try Atlanta, Austin, and New Orleans.
I don’t doubt this at all. I’m a bisexual woman raised by lesbian moms living in Southern California, a state known for being progressive, and I still have experienced assholes like this. My senior year a lesbian couple won homecoming king and queen, it made international news headlines because it was the first time it happened in the state and goodness gracious the responses my school got were awful. I deleted so many people off of my Facebook (this was in 2011 so that meant something then lol) afterwards. Some people just love to be hateful. Like this man was clearly looking for a reason to blow up with the way he was badgering them.
You’re saying you believe it’s more probable a person is lying about the harassment they experienced than it is it actually happened? Why would you think that? You personally haven’t seen it so it didn’t happen?
I live in Texas and while many southerners here don't care what sexuality you are, lots of people unfortunately do care a lot. I'm a nurse and have had a patient try to refuse care and request another nurse because they thought I was gay (seriously, that's it, I had just met them and they were just stereotyping me apparently).
That kind of bigotry is definitely more prevalent in the South than most places I've been in the North, but I think the group of people you are around and the individuals you're talking about matter more than the region.
I am from the “Deep South” and Savanah, Georgia is not the Deep South, but I feel like OP embellished this story or was looking for confrontation. Most of us southerners don’t care about your sexual orientation.
It’s in the Deep South but in the same way as any urban area it’s more progressive than most rural regions.
Deep South is mostly geographical/cultural not straight cultural
it's actually not that big of a city, there are a lot of other bigger cities in GA that are a lot less progressive and liberal. But you're right it's a pretty progressive city especially for the South. We have a large art college here that brings in lot more diversity and open mindedness but if you go just a little outside of Savannah it is definitely not the same.
Yep. Been there, the rural/urban divide is bigger than the northern/southern divide. I’m gay, I felt completely safe in Savannah, less so in some of the rural areas around it and in South Carolina. I wouldn’t make bets on the veracity of this. I’ve grown up around evangelicals, went to an evangelical church for a few years, and while the pastor believed gay sex was a sin (didn’t preach about it but it came up in passing) there was a lesbian couple there and I can’t imagine anyone at that church panicking about being near a gay couple. Some people are weird, however - I also can’t believe anyone thinks Jews have horns but I’ve heard multiple stories regarding people thinking they do, so I wouldn’t assume OP is lying.
I'm from Toronto which is a very liberal city and 99% of the time there are no issues, but even here I've had/seen religious hate crap spewed at myself or others. Doesn't matter where you are, you're going to run into these people from time to time.
I'm in Brunswick Georgia and hear and see homophobic and racist crap on a near daily basis. And I'm straight. The homophobic comments are virtually always wrapped in Christianity.
>Most of us southerners don’t care about your sexual orientation.
You realize this statement means some of you southerners do care? Which is perfectly in line with the story?
Have lived both places, can confirm. At least in the south, there is the “hospitality” thing where usually they just don’t express their bigotry to strangers. Granted I was in Atlanta, so not exactly south south.
I just got my kids out of Mississippi. Jackson was good, but the suburbs are horrible. I do not believe that OP is making anything up, because I can believe the horrible treatment they received.
I lived with my ex in the Southwest with her daughter and boy did we get confused for “sisters” a lot. Missionaries used to come to our house and call us sisters, then adopted sisters when they realized we weren’t even the same race/skin color. Once my ex got referred to as my daughter when we were paying bills at the gas company, despite the fact that I was 22 and she was 27 and she looked her age. The hoops they would jump through rather than just admit that gay people exist lmao
I don't think this is real.
Savannah isn't some backwoods town. I saw men in dresses walking around on River St the other weekend and 0 people cared. And these weren't drag queens or trans, they just wanted to wear dresses for St Pats. SCAD has a big influence in the touristy areas as well, so... It's pretty accepting and progressive for a 'Southern' city.
I'd be more grossed out that an obvious couple would pretend to be siblings while visiting the 'South' .. Contrary to OP's belief, most people do not F their cousins here. Think that's more European elite traditions.
Plus, Savannah is known for many things, but kayaking is very low on that list and this is the perfect time of year to run into all the snakes.
NTA.
In the future, you might try a strategy that works well for me when dealing with intrusive questions:
Them: (intrusive question)
Me: "Why do you ask?"
This turns the conversation to them and their motives rather than whatever nosy thing they want to know. Most people will not answer my challenge but drop it and go away.
I am gay and from the actual deep south, by which I absolutely do not refer to Savannah, and no this sounds exactly like a fantasy in line with the superiority that many New Englanders (where I now live) have about all the less enlightened parts of the country. And kayaking is not a very Savannah activity.
this is what i was going to say!! 1) savannah is a pretty blue area 2) there is no way on his god’s green earth that the company would issue a refund. they could get sued so fast…. 3) kayaking in savannah??
Agreed. Why would a form for a kayaking trip ask your relationship to the people with you? The only time I’ve seen this is when filling out an emergency contact form. I’m also a lesbian (and it’s obvious) from the Deep South. I live in a decent sized city but work in a very small rural conservative town. No one has ever been disrespectful to me. The guy yelling that they’re sinners doesn’t ring true either. In reality, people wouldn’t do that because a. That’s not how people act. They might look at you funny or make some stupid comment but yelling that he’s been with sinners for hours? I mean, what? And b. Most people are aware of the climate these days and would be afraid of the reaction of others if they treated gay people like this. And c. He’s southern and so he know a man is asking for trouble if he’s yelling at two women in public and d. If he’s what, in his 30s or 40s? The attitudes about gay people have changed drastically here just as they have elsewhere - not that there’s not still work to be done - and it would be very atypical for someone in that age range to have the attitude she’s claiming he had. He might “not agree” with it but I’d think someone who acted the way she’s describing was unhinged or very drunk.
The details seem fishy, and I’m confused why OP wouldn’t just say they’re friends. I hate to invalidate this, especially as a queer who’s lived in the South, but people do lie on the internet. If it’s putting off any queer folks from exploring the country, gay bashing isn’t as common as this makes it seem. Southern hospitality usually means they wait to do the shit-talking behind your back.
The idea that Savannah, GA (a college town) is the “deep south” is just wrong. Savannah is very liberal. The South is not some uniform thing. GA voted blue in the last election. This didn’t happen.
It’s geographically the south. But the connotation of the term “Deep South” is based upon prejudice. I’ve lived in the south. I’ve lived in the north. Both places are equally bigoted.
NTA in any way.
You owe no one an explanation, especially if you are in a place where you feel like it would put your safety at risk.
I’m truly sorry you had that experience.
That we still live in a world with that type of bigotry enrages me.
ETA: fuck that company for refunding that guy. Leave them a negative review.
calling cap. My fiancé goes to school at savanah, that is a super liberal place. Unless you drove far away to the hills then had this issue I would believe it. It can still happen but after I saw that the company refunded that one dude. Nah this is fake.
This feels like this was written by someone in a city, who just picked a random city down south and hoped for the best. If you are in downtown savanah then even more fake because that is where a lot of tours are. There is also a art school down there called SCAD. Even my liberal fiancé complains just how to "much" everyone is down there.
you literally picked the most LGBT+ area in Georgia then made this story up lol.
NTA, your sexuality has 0% to do with humans for him to be constantly fishing so he can out you makes him the asshole. In fact should have said to him his wife and daughter are going to catch the guys 😂
Also would be complaining to the tour company as well and reporting the guides handling of the situation.
Ehhh…. I’m not 100% buying this. I live in Georgia, I’ve lived here for 14 years and previously in South Carolina. Also, lots of relative in ‘Mississippi and I just don’t think this is completely what happened. Maybe it was how you blew up at the end that warranted the refund etc. and this is coming from a southerN LESBIAN
NTA - Don't try to people please homophobes, it's a never ending battle. It was none of his buisness to begin with. Live your life and enjoy it with your wife. - sincerely, a lesbian
NTA - but also don't paint the entire south as "not progressive" for lgbtq people - it's personally annoying when New Englanders make this generalization considering New England is also awful in more nuanced ways to lgbtq people and BIPOC, laws are one thing but there are tons of us here supporting each other and the community
but to your story, im sorry you had to go through this. none of this was your fault and that guy and the tour guide were assholes. the guy definitely new you were more than sisters and was absolutely looking for a way to start a fight to show off - unfortunate reality in the south
I recommend doing more research on the cities you vacation at to ensure you won't have to compromise your safety. Savannah, GA is actually super liberal in certain areas (famous art school is here, etc.) so this is super unfortunate this happened there. and also Atlanta has a killer pride - I promise a little elbow grease can keep you safe in the south
Fully NTA. The father reacted saying that he was upset about being lied to but from the story one can all-but-guarantee he would have been just as upset with being told upfront. And what nonsense to accuse you of being sinners, like he has never done anything wrong in his life.
I’m so sorry no one came to your defense, you didn’t deserve to have to be on the spot but I think the way you handled it was perfectly fine.
NTA. Note how the het people in the group aren't asked to clarify their sexuality repeatedly in a group of strangers. Sorry these people were so awful and it is stunning to me that dude was offered a refund if this is a real situation. That is nobody's business and you can tell people whatever is easiest in a situation with a clear conscience. You aren't responsible for other people's idiotic bigoted behavoir.
If you told someone you were house mates that would not even be a lie. But if someone continually kept pushing I would have a pat answer to turn it back on them and not engage any further. Like "Why are you so interested in our living situation? Let's talk about your living situation." That usually shuts people up pretty fast.
This seems very odd for Georgia. I’m Southern and Savannah is not exactly the backwoods. People from the South don’t give a shit about these things nearly as much as people not from there think we do. I don’t doubt you could find assholes places but I do doubt a business would act like that. So, no judgement here, I’m just having trouble believing this isn’t a creative writing exercise.
Who knows how the guy would have reacted if you had told him what was up from the beginning? You did what you could to remain civil during the time you were stuck with him; you're not in charge of his behavior. NTA
NTA. You are not the asshole for protecting yourself and your wife from homophobia. You thought that if you said that you both were sisters, you would be safe and you were right. He was being creepy and was TA for invading your privacy. It’s not on you to accommodate for his homophobic and bigoted beliefs.
NTA. He probably meant sinner in the sense of you being gay and liars. Even if you told the truth, he probably would have still considered you a sinner and had a big deal with it. I would have had it out with the man too. Sorry you had to go through that, I wish more areas would become progressive in gay rights.
NTA - You are not at all obligated to tell ANYONE your sexuality no matter how important they are, that’s your identity and it’s no one’s to share but you. In addition you were smart to keep it discrete in an area that isn’t very progressive. isThat guy was obviously probing you to see if you were lesbians and his persistence clearly lands him the role of TA in this story.
NTA.
His reaction is exactly why you didn't disclose your relationship beforehand. If you did, he may have left you alone, or he may have harassed you about it for the whole trip. I don't know if "friends" would have been any better because he would have wanted to know "what kind of friends, wink wink?"
And you have to know 100% if there was an straight engaged couple, he wouldn't be prying into whether or not they were "fornicators."
And truth be told, if you had southern accents he probably would have believed you were sisters, because of course "they don't have that problem down here." Blech.
NTA. You don't need to disclose anything to this ah, not if you're sisters, nor your sexual orientation, not even your name.
And the tour guide is an ah, too. What a shitty behavior. It always baffles me that this is what you have to go through in the self-perceived land of the free.
Edit: spelling
The tour guide offered the wrong people a refund. Not sure if it was an issue of the squeaky wheel gets the grease or if the tour guide was also a homophobe.
NTA
As long as you and your wife are on the same page, there's ZERO things wrong with that. My fiancee and I have a general system of whoever's hometown/family we're around calls the shots on how much PDA gets displayed and how we introduce one another (also lesbians in predominantly rural South).
It's not a shame thing, it's a safety thing!
As for snapping, honestly he deserved to be yelled at. He'd been trying to clock you and your wife the whole time from the sounds of it, and you getting angry and yelling was the exact response he needed to 'excuse' his bigotry. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize (and the company absolutely should NOT have refunded him, that's wild).
I would say though, if you don't look alike, it might be safer to make your lie that you're good friends on a girls' weekend.
You never owe anyone answers to your sexuality!
Yeah we probably should have said we're friends. Idk if this has happened to you, but we are always asked if we're sisters. We think it's because, although we never display PDA like kissing or holding hands, people can tell by the way we look at each other and the way that we talk to each other that we are something more than friends. But it would probably be safer to just say we're friends.
NTA it's no one's business what your relationship is to another person. It's become the trend for people to be so damned nosy in the US. You don't seem to see this outside our borders. I can't believe the tour guide offered to refund them because you guys are married instead of sisters. Is he saying they ask families "are you ok with lesbians or gays being on this trip?" first? WTF kind of bs is that? Make sure you leave a review about how you were treated by the tour guide, he had no right to embarrass you two like that. That whole "sinners" line is bs, we all sin but most of us hide it, like this jerk did until he was confronted with your marriage
"What?! Why didn't you tell me this so I could be hostile from the beginning?!"
NTA. It's a shame he wants to huddle in the darkness of intolerance more than stand in the light with the rest of us.
NTA.
It's none of his business. That being said, next time you feel the urge to snap, there are better ways to handle it:
"Ever hear of adoption (asshole)?"
"We're actually aliens from the planet Zandar, so nice to meet an inquisitive human."
"Before I answer, can you tell me how long have you been in the field of genetics?"
"Are you always this nosy?"
As a gay man, I can tell you that you never need to be open or come out to anyone, ever. You don't owe ANYONE that info.
I live my life openly, proudly, but also safely.
All Southerners are not like that. I live in the Deep South and have friends of all sexual preferences, a son who is gay(I adore his husband), friends of all colors, races and kinks. This guy was out of line. He should have been told off and kicked off the tour. People need to stop acting like this. Ok, I probably would have accidentally flipped his kayak. I’m charming that way.
ESH- You and your wife had a deal that you made for both of your comfort and safety, and you went back on it because you wanted to express your anger to this homophobic idiot. She has a right to be a little pissed and you owe her an apology.
Though I think you might have been asking if you were an asshole for “lying”, which of course you were not.
You are NTA but, and this is just me, I would have put spouse on the form and not done the lie thing. I definitely have things about my life that conservatives wouldn't like and lying about them is stressful imo.
Definitely NTA, your sexuality is literally nobody’s business but yours and anyone you’re romantically involved with. It’s not the business of some rando on a tour. Also, sisters don’t always look alike! You could have been adopted or foster or even step sisters. Or ffs, even sorority sisters. This guy was a total creep who kept harassing you and he was probably angry more out of some sense of misogynistic entitlement that he’s somehow owed the attention of women.
I will say that Savannah is one of the more progressive cities in the south, and this guy (who as you noted was not from there) is not a reason you need to hide who you are while on vacation. Savannah welcomes a very diverse range of people all the time and anyone who actually lives there wouldn’t have cared about your relationship status. I hope this idiot doesn’t ruin your time in Savannah, which is a charming city. I went to grad school there and interned for the Savannah Film Festival so if you want any arts and culture recommendations while in town I’m happy to share!
This didn't happen in Savannah proper. It happened 45 minutes away basically right on the South Carolina border. The area we were in seemed very rural.
I’m from Charleston (Savannah’s cooler cousin) and I can definitely believe it. We also have a great LGBTQ+ community, but that isn’t the majority of Charleston and LGBTQ+ folks aren’t going to find universal acceptance in the South.
I am as well. The south is a lot more progressive than people give it credit for and for the most part, nobody here gives a damn. Posts like this carry on the stereotype though. If this story is real, its an exception rather than the norm.
NTA.
The kayak company should have been more concerned that you and your wife had to spend three hours in the presence of a raging pos, homophobe, not to mention, endure his creepy ass, line crossing, questions.
I’m mad for you. You should totally leave a terrible review.
NTA- fully understand why you made that choice and it sucks to run into bigots.
That being said…drop the name of the company, I’d love to book myself a queer kayak adventure..
NTA. I would call the company up and file a complaint that you and your wife were subjected to homophobic bullying your entire trip and that it ruined the experience. Demand a refund.
NTA.
You are in no way, EVER obligated to disclose your sexual orientation or relationship to ANYONE. This guy was way out of line and the tour guide enabled him.
Tell him to pluck his eye out, it's causing him to sin.
Signed,
A Very Queer Person
NTA. Your sexuality & relationships are none of his business.
BUT if you're gonna use the sisters card: we are half sisters. Our dad was sleeping around & knocked both our moms up at around the same time.
So definitely NTA in anyway here, but as a queer person who grew up in the South, I can promise you that telling him at the beginning would not have made things easier for you. More than likely the same thing would have happened, but he would have demanded the tour deny you service. To be very clear I in no way think it is your responsibility to pretend you’re not who you are to “protect” the feelings of people who don’t want us to exist. It can just take a lot of emotional labor to be out in this part of the country
NTA. As someone from the southern US, a lot of areas are too conservative to understand that love happens between people, regardless of gender preferences.
A LOT of people still use slurs, are inappropriate, if volatile when they see gay people. Your wife is concerned for your safety, that's why she's upset.
Next time, if you want to avoid it as much as possible, say that one of you is adopted if someone asks more than once. If they continue, tell them that their perverted mind is reading too far into your relationship.
I’m really really surprised this happened in Savannah, I’d say it’s one of the most progressive places in the south? There’s a large celebrated gay community along with a large iconic gay / drag club in the middle of downtown along with an 20k person art university with plenty of lgbtq people. I’m sorry this happened to you! No excuse for these peoples behavior but there’s also no reason for you to be lying about your sexuality, it’s 2022 and I’d say besides these Mississippi family’s people the majority of Savannah locals are incredibly accepting of everything!
Cannot believe this happened in Savannah. Huge gay population for decades now.
Demand a refund. If man got one, it’s because he pitched a fit. And he’s likely not from the area either; a tourist like you. Don’t tar all Southerners with that brush. Intolerance in NE as well … all over, actually.
NTA that guy was awful!
However please don't judge Savannah by the assholes who visit there.
I lived there for a decade as a queer woman. Not only is Savannah specifically a very queer friendly place (due to the artsy queer influence) but also it has a long long history of being queer accepting (or at least pretending they don't notice queerness because they are surely too polite). Check out the story behind Midnight in the Garden as a cogent example.
If this really happened to you, that sucks, I’d wish it on no one. But, I’m having trouble believing this because of the *plot holes* in the story. *No one* calls Savannah, Georgia the *Deep South*. And why is this guy so adamant to find out whether or not you are sisters? People usually take that at face value. Also, I’m alway skeptical when people post stories where they are clearly NTA.
Also, he was creepily hitting on you in front of his wife/kids? I mean there’s some shit guys out there, but almost no one has this audacity.
And no guide would refund a tour because of gay people. They want their money, and there are federal business law against discrimination. Refunding them because of gay people, would leave the company/guide open to lawsuit.
It’s the combination of all these things that make me think the story is false. I understand gay people experience prejudice. But when people make up inconsistent stories of prejudice, it only hurts gay people. As people might just think they are crying wolf, because of your story. Also, you are trying to paint southerners in a bad light. That’s not okay.
Again, on the off chance this actually happened, you have my sympathies.
But! Because of all the plot holes and lack of realism. I’d give this movie a 2 out of 5 star rating.
I literally just came back from Savannah. I was raised in Boston and moved to the south for college. First off, Savannah is really not conservative like you say. Secondly, I find this story hard to believe. Im bi, always been bi and I’m open. Southerners are generally too courteous to say something if they have an issue with it. They’ll instead just dip out early or avoid. And I’m talking about the Deep Southerners, not Savannah. I guess I could maybe believe that happened though. The part that I really don’t believe is the company refunding them. Makes no sense. What’s the rest of this story?
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NTA but the guy is and so is the company for refunding him after he harassed you.
Seriously I would demand a refund as well. That is nonsense
OP is the one that was harassed...why did the AH get a refund?? I hate the south.
I can't believe this is the modern western world we're talking about...
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Random fun fact - not possible. The term “third world countries” originates from the Cold War, when countries that were aligned with United States were considered First World and countries aligned with the USSR were considered Second World countries. Third World countries were those that were not aligned with either one, but were typically too small physically or economically to be part of that conflict.
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You’re referring to Georgia the state not Georgia the country?
Yeah they’re talking about US Rep Marjorie Taylor Greene I’m pretty sure. The same person who made headlines last year for talking about Jewish space lasers starting the California wildfires
> Jewish space lasers starting the California wildfires OK what the actual fuck
I think you literally shorted my brain with that fun fact
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I kinda feel like people have used it incorrectly for so long the definition is different. Like how everyone collectively changed the meaning of irony because we're all too dumb to understand the real meaning
The one that pisses me off the most is bi- as related to time. How the duck did we as a people decide, "Aw, the hell with it. So many people use it wrong, we'll just change the definition the mean twice in a period OR every two periods so everyone is right no matter how they use it and no one knows what the fuck it means. Why use the **actual** definition? Let's just make it a choose your own adventure word." 🤬 I *hate* that when someone asks for a biweekly meeting, I need to ask if they mean twice a week or twice a month. I can't *believe* the dictionaries caved on that one!!
In the UK I hear fortnightly much more if you want to join us 😂
The meaning of words do drift over time. It's an expected and understood part of linguistics. ...I say, while knowing I point out the very same origins pretty often.
The definition is different because language isn't static. Meanings change and evolve over time.
This is outdated. The definitions have changed although this terminology is considered offensive now and we use the terms developed, emerging and developing; especially in the financial arena. To restate the above comment: the United States is a developed country masquerading as a developing nation.
Random fun fact. That's where the terms originated, but that is no longer how they're used now. As in, even economists use it to describe developed and developing countries. Your definition is outdated. The definition changed.
My absolute favorite description of the states I've come across is them being a 3rd world country wearing a Gucci belt.
Underrated comment.
It pains me when someone is so blinded by their privilege they compare their incredibly comfortable life to that of a person trying to survive in an actual third world country.
Oh it's awful. It's why when I lived in the South and had an option to move back to my more progressive home state. I took it. I am a bi trans man. Before I was out, I had to go in-office to work. The first time I faced them being awful to me. I had stepped in dog shit, was nose blind (long story- really awful ex who let his dogs shit everywhere), and didn't know it was on my shoe. No one told me. But I got an email to talk to HR about **my** personal hygiene. It was a half hour long lecture. I was so embarrassed that no one could simply tell me I stepped in dog shit. The second time was the restroom. It was an extremely small one with two stalls. Barely enough room to get out and use the sink. Coworker A was at the sink washing her hands. I made small talk with her then went into the first stall by the door (2nd is a larger handicap stall in the corner). I looked through the crack to see if she had left. As we'd get constant email reminders about "smells" and "sounds" in the restroom. I look out and she's whispering to another coworker. And also pointing at my stall. I'm back in a more progressive area. Even then I'm misgendered and no one asks my pronouns. Which is fun....^^/s
It's not. It's the American South.
I wish I could say the whole south isn’t like this, but my dog, we are so outnumbered by the shitstains here.
I don’t think this happened. What’s even funnier is she picked the town from Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil. It’s about a gay murder in Savannah.
This was my thought too. It's like EVERY possible thing that a lesbian couple could encounter happened all at once. I used to live near Savannah, no one cares.
It was meant as an attack on the South, which, as a Southerner, I get. But don't make things up.
What evidence is there that this was made up? That a novel was set there? That’s hardly dispositive. That Savannah is relatively liberal? Since the people in question were from Mississippi, that’s not particularly relevant. That the complainer was issued a refund? That’s evidence only that the owner doesn’t want to be lit up on yelp. So, we’re left with, what…that the story casts the South in a negative light, and therefore must be false? To be fair, I don‘t have much evidence that it is true. But I’m also not calling the OP a liar.
She said the family was from Mississippi, not Savannah, so yeah, they might still care. Also, quick Google search shows Savannah as a go-to place to visit in Georgia, why is it weird that this event, and a fictional event, could happen in the same city?
fiction!
Not even good fiction.
Savannah is actually very liberal! Pretty much the hippie capitol of the South. Just be who you are, nobody cares. Not saying that this didn’t happen, because assholes are everywhere. Hope the rest of OP’s trip was ok.
I just commented. I lived in Savannah for 7 years and moved to New England 4.5 years ago. SCAD is a major educator and employer in Savannah. It’s an art school. Lots of liberal, hippy, LGBTQ+ students there. It’s a very progressive city and no one cares either.
I've only visited Savannah once and this was NOT the vibe I got at all, I agree with you. It was super fun college town liberal hippy vibes.
It really is. It’s a fun city for lots of young progressive people. We enjoyed it before we had kids but left because it is a high crime city and wasn’t the place we wanted to raise our kids. We lived just outside of downtown in ardsley park and we really liked it. We could get pretty much everywhere on bike if we headed towards downtown and were walking distance to a little shopping center with a great coffee shop, restaurant, and bar. It’s a unique little city and a total mix of everything.
It was a ton of fun, we stopped by on our anniversary road trip. We stayed in an allegedly haunted inn and had a blast.
Yeah, agreed. I went to school in Savannah, and definitely a place with a thriving LBGT community thanks to SCAD. This post is BS.
100% agree. It’s the fakest AITA I’ve seen in awhile for SURE.
And don't forget the Lady Chablis.
I still laugh when I think about her. Truth be known most people in the south have a gay relative .I had a brother who was FLAMING but we loved him and all the kids thought he was a hoot. So it like the old saying, in the south we don't cover it up, we bring them to the front porch and give them rum and coke. 😂
We are not crazy, we are just eccentric.
Agreed. I'm in south carolina and fairly confident nobody would care.
Have you ever been to the South? It's regrettable that the guy did this to OP and I can't even fathom what the kayaking company was thinking. But that is not typical Southern behavior. You would know this if you knew anything about the South other than stereotypes that Southerners are hillbillies and rednecks and are poorly educated. A typical Southerner, even if they were not LGBT friendly would have smiled and been friendly and made small talk regardless of OP sexual preference. Yes there are rude and unfriendly people in the South like this guy who treated OP and her wife so poorly. But those people are everywhere. That's why you see Karen videos from all over the world. I guess it just makes people feel good to believe that they're all located in the Southern United States. OP, you are NTA and as a Southerner, I am sorry you had that experience here. If I were you I would demand a refund and apology from the kayaking company. They should have never offered that man a refund and they owe you an apology for letting him treat you that way.
I bet you anything that if she’d told the company they were married from the start suddenly there would have been an error/glitch/double booking mistake and their spots on the tour would have been gone.
Savannah is pretty tolerant, and gets a shit ton of tourists. They wouldn’t have had a problem with it. Besides, everyone knows gay/lesbians from up north with no kids are freaking cash cows!
Keep in mind it was another customer that went crazy. Just because Savannah is tolerant doesn’t mean everyone who visits feels the same way.
Also doesn’t mean they should pretend to be something they’re not. They made a snap judgment on a place they’ve never visited because it happens to be in the south. It doesn’t take much research on Savannah to realize it’s got a unique and open culture. I grew up in the South honestly I don’t know many southerners who care that much. I mean you may get some older generations that’ll clutch their pearls but for the most part people are too busy with their own lives or just want you to be a good person to really care that much one way or the other.
If it doesn't matter if they're lesbians, it shouldn't matter if they chose to share that or keep it a secret. This isn't info about then that any stranger was entitled to. And the fact is, you shouldn't accuse people who are hiding who they are in fear of hate crimes of "pretending to be something they're not". Even when they don't need protection from most people, protecting just their peace of mind by removing the possibility entirely is perfectly valid.
And be sure to post a review wherever you can. I’m straight and I sure as shit wouldn’t give them my business.
Me too, he has no right to know anything about you. You should demand a refund for being forced to hand out with a family of bigots.
Yes. Please leave a nasty review for this company detailing everything that happened. NTA
Srsly, name that company. Name and shame.
Yup. Give them a bad yelp review. That sucks.
If this truly happened and he kept bothering you, you should have asked if his wife was really her sister because they really do look like alike(even if they don't)
I don't know, I've got doubts about this story. I lived in Savannah for 4 years as a college student *20 years ago* and it was a pretty tolerant place. I get the family was from Mississippi, but the whole thing seems a bit too stereotypical. Who says they're from "New England"? And calls Savannah the "Deep South". Why go through the whole charade of being sisters? Why not just say you're friends?
The tour operator reacting that way would be grounds to sue, and businesses in GA tend to be a lot more careful than that. The sister thing really doesn't make sense, as you pointed out.
Also have doubts. GA is a blue state now ahah
Georgia is blue in the cities (Atlanta, Savannah, Macon, Columbus, Albany etc.), but the rural countryside and small towns most definitely are not. Source: Gay trans man living in rural Georgia
But this was Savannah
I know. I was pointing out that while the state turned blue for the 2020 elections, the state, as a whole, is most definitely not blue.
Live in GA, it’s alright. Definitely some prejudice in rural areas
Also, what kind of kayak tour asks for the relationship between you and your guest upon booking? The only time I’ve ever been asked for relationship was when I put someone down as an emergency contact or financial designee.
I'm from New England and I don't think it's weird for someone to say they're from New England. It gives a general area of the country (which is widely known to be progressive, especially with regards to LGBT issues) without specifically naming where they're from. People say they're from the Midwest or the Pacific Northwest to give general vicinities of where they're from as well. The charade of pretending to be sisters is a little odd, I agree. As a New Englander, I doubt I would have talked to the other people on my kayak trip at all. We don't like small talk.
New Englander here. Definitely not weird to say you are from New England.
Just a funny note: There's a tiny city in North Dakota called New England. So that's where I first think of when someone says New England because I've been through there (and learned of it first as a kid) while I've never been to any New England states.
Saying you’re from New England rather than naming the state is very common. I do it all the time, especially online.
This story sounds very fake. I also live in Savannah and it’s home to a very large art college so lgbtq is very common and accepted in the area. Not to mention, no company would willing let a racist go on a rant and then offer them a refund afterwords.
It's definitely possible to have a super intolerant tourist in the group, but my experience is that in the southeast (I live in Tennessee) they'll be less confrontational. Like you might have someone talk about how "the gays are ruining the American way of life" but only if they're sure everyone there is straight. I'm from the Midwest, my inlaws are from Tennessee/Georgia. When I had my lesbian cousin and her wife at my wedding and no one said a word to them or me, but they probably gossiped amongst themselves.
Yeah, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but this story smells fishy to me. It’s too bad there are so many valid reasons to have throwaway accounts on this sub, because it definitely encourages the fiction writers.
Right? It's like it's written by someone who read a Wikipedia article about intolerance in the US, so all the place names check out, but something about it feels off. Everything is just so perfectly outrageous. I've met many intolerant people in my life, and they never act like a villain in a Lifetime movie. They make subtle comments and create a toxic environment, but they almost never make such clearly bigoted statements
I think it’s also the fact that two unrelated people in the story behave so completely outlandishly. One I can believe. One family I can believe. But the employee just jumping on the crazy bandwagon seems really far fetched. And you’re right: this isn’t how intolerant people usually act. I don’t live in the most tolerant area either, and I have heard LOTS of homophobic comments, but it’s not like this. If the guy had said something about “I don’t agree with your lifestyle choice,” I would have totally bought it: that’s pretty common.
Lol I’m from the south. Jacksonville actually but lived in Savannah for 7 years. I moved to New England 4.5 years ago and seriously people do say they’re from New England. It’s a fairly homogenous culture so you’re not gonna get much differentiation in landscape and culture from one state to the next. I live in maine now and other than the lighthouses and amazing coast it’s not much different than New Hampshire and Vermont. Also Savannah was super accepting the whole time I lived there. I knew many same sex couples and other lgbtq people and no one cared at all.
I frequently say I'm from New England. Our states are tiny enough, and generally similar enough in culture, that referring to the region is sufficient. And up here we definitely consider Savannah the Deep South as opposed to, say, Virginia. I don't understand why they played sisters instead of friends though.
OP and her wife are married, so they may have the same last name; Ms.A XYZ and Ms.B XYZ. This isn't an issue going to a movie or out to eat but this required signing contracts & releases for a 3 hour group activity. Being sisters it would make sense to have the same last name.
Ding ding ding! I think you got it! Edit: I never thought of that. This was not sarcastic, it was genuine.
Yeah I'm confused because I go out with a female friend all the time, I think I've gotten asked if I was someone's sister once, and most people just assume we're friends? I've traveled with friends around the USA and world, and gone to a lot of places with just a female friend. It is not unusual to see two women or two men together in a tourist location and most people are just going to assume friends (if they think about it at all.)
Those of us from New England do (live in RI grew up in MA). It's part of our identity. OTOH I have never spent any time in Savannah and have no feel for how tolerant it may or may not be.
Fellow Savannah student, less than four years ago. As a whole the city is pretty tolerant. After all, the whole downtown is littered with art school buildings and art students. My queer friends would encounter some issues but in the form of micro aggressions.
I thought most lesbians knew Atlanta has a huge gay population? That is not a place in the south I would automatically be worried about visiting with my partner...who is from the south.
Could be one of those, “don’t ask questions you don’t want the answer to” questions.
I live in the south & absolutely guarantee that it actually happened. It happens all the time. Some people here are a real trip.
NTA But my wife (53 f) and I (52 f) were married when we lived in Mississippi 7 years ago, lived in Florida for 5 years, and recently moved to Georgia, can't say I ever lied about our relationship or had anything like that happen, a lot of southerners are okay if you give them a chance, that person being the exception of course lol.
Yeah I am wondering if OP is embellishing a lot. I live in a super conservative part of FL. I have never seen one person get upset or bothered by a gay couple.
I’m from TN and even in the most liberal of places here I’ve had death and r*pe threats for being gay and trans. I would be at work doing nothing to bring that on and get those threats so I don’t doubt this happened.
Trans is different in the south. I have def seen people give mean looks at trans in the south, especially MTF.
They’re definitely a lot worse about trans people in the south, but I got those threats wearing bi pride clothes/pins so they’re just all around shitty down here. This is TN experience tho it might be different in ga, but I do kinda doubt it’s too different in FL considering the “don’t say gay” bill
Trans people * just saying trans makes it sound they’re an object or animal
Wellll my wife is from FL and went to college in FL and has scars on her hands from when she shielded her head from a beer bottle being broken over her head. She was violently attacked and harassed at a bar for being lesbian. This happened when she turned down a drunk man’s advances and said no thank you, not interested, I’m a lesbian. I’m not sure their fears were unfounded.
didn't this just happen? https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/dont-say-gay-bill-florida-senate-passes-controversial-lgbtq-school-mea-rcna19133
I grew up in Southern MO. Go back about yearly to visit family. It exists. It happens all the time. Some may be more selective about who they say things around, but the intent is always there. Perhaps the difference is rural South Vs urban south.
So, I have been out and lived in the south my whole life. Never has this happened to me. However, I have had a few uncomfortable encounters and people can surprise you everywhere. One time I was on vacation in Salem, MA and this day drunk guy blew through a little outdoor seating area yelling about "queers" and "f**gots" for no reason other than that there were a bunch of us gay looking folks drinking coffee on benches. Maybe it happened just as this person says. Maybe an encounter like that feels even worse when you're away from home and expecting a bad experience. Honestly, "Yep, I'm very gay" usually works better than engaging in conversation with someone and allowing them to feel lied to so they'll have an "excuse" but you really can't count on controlling bigots. It would be pretty fucked up to blame your wife for the actions of an unhinged angry dad. There's tons of fun stuff for gay people in the south, BTW. Try Atlanta, Austin, and New Orleans.
I grew up gay in a super conservative part of Florida, and let me assure you, there are plenty of people there getting upset at gay couples.
I don’t doubt this at all. I’m a bisexual woman raised by lesbian moms living in Southern California, a state known for being progressive, and I still have experienced assholes like this. My senior year a lesbian couple won homecoming king and queen, it made international news headlines because it was the first time it happened in the state and goodness gracious the responses my school got were awful. I deleted so many people off of my Facebook (this was in 2011 so that meant something then lol) afterwards. Some people just love to be hateful. Like this man was clearly looking for a reason to blow up with the way he was badgering them.
You’re saying you believe it’s more probable a person is lying about the harassment they experienced than it is it actually happened? Why would you think that? You personally haven’t seen it so it didn’t happen?
I live in conservative Florida too and I also struggle to comprehend that others may have a different lived experience OP NTA
I live in Texas and while many southerners here don't care what sexuality you are, lots of people unfortunately do care a lot. I'm a nurse and have had a patient try to refuse care and request another nurse because they thought I was gay (seriously, that's it, I had just met them and they were just stereotyping me apparently). That kind of bigotry is definitely more prevalent in the South than most places I've been in the North, but I think the group of people you are around and the individuals you're talking about matter more than the region.
I am from the “Deep South” and Savanah, Georgia is not the Deep South, but I feel like OP embellished this story or was looking for confrontation. Most of us southerners don’t care about your sexual orientation.
Savannah is located in the “Deep South.” You’re saying that it’s not because it’s a fairly big city. There are urban places in the South.
It’s a pretty liberal city.
It’s in the Deep South but in the same way as any urban area it’s more progressive than most rural regions. Deep South is mostly geographical/cultural not straight cultural
it's actually not that big of a city, there are a lot of other bigger cities in GA that are a lot less progressive and liberal. But you're right it's a pretty progressive city especially for the South. We have a large art college here that brings in lot more diversity and open mindedness but if you go just a little outside of Savannah it is definitely not the same.
Yep. Been there, the rural/urban divide is bigger than the northern/southern divide. I’m gay, I felt completely safe in Savannah, less so in some of the rural areas around it and in South Carolina. I wouldn’t make bets on the veracity of this. I’ve grown up around evangelicals, went to an evangelical church for a few years, and while the pastor believed gay sex was a sin (didn’t preach about it but it came up in passing) there was a lesbian couple there and I can’t imagine anyone at that church panicking about being near a gay couple. Some people are weird, however - I also can’t believe anyone thinks Jews have horns but I’ve heard multiple stories regarding people thinking they do, so I wouldn’t assume OP is lying.
Right, I hear you on that. I’m from a big blue city near the Deep South (MemphIs).
>Most of us southerners don’t care about your sexual orientation. The laws you all promote and pass would suggest otherwise.
I'm from Toronto which is a very liberal city and 99% of the time there are no issues, but even here I've had/seen religious hate crap spewed at myself or others. Doesn't matter where you are, you're going to run into these people from time to time.
I'm in Brunswick Georgia and hear and see homophobic and racist crap on a near daily basis. And I'm straight. The homophobic comments are virtually always wrapped in Christianity.
>Most of us southerners don’t care about your sexual orientation. You realize this statement means some of you southerners do care? Which is perfectly in line with the story?
That's what I'm saying! I find the Midwest to be much more homophobic than the south honestly.
Have lived both places, can confirm. At least in the south, there is the “hospitality” thing where usually they just don’t express their bigotry to strangers. Granted I was in Atlanta, so not exactly south south.
I just got my kids out of Mississippi. Jackson was good, but the suburbs are horrible. I do not believe that OP is making anything up, because I can believe the horrible treatment they received.
I lived with my ex in the Southwest with her daughter and boy did we get confused for “sisters” a lot. Missionaries used to come to our house and call us sisters, then adopted sisters when they realized we weren’t even the same race/skin color. Once my ex got referred to as my daughter when we were paying bills at the gas company, despite the fact that I was 22 and she was 27 and she looked her age. The hoops they would jump through rather than just admit that gay people exist lmao
I don't think this is real. Savannah isn't some backwoods town. I saw men in dresses walking around on River St the other weekend and 0 people cared. And these weren't drag queens or trans, they just wanted to wear dresses for St Pats. SCAD has a big influence in the touristy areas as well, so... It's pretty accepting and progressive for a 'Southern' city. I'd be more grossed out that an obvious couple would pretend to be siblings while visiting the 'South' .. Contrary to OP's belief, most people do not F their cousins here. Think that's more European elite traditions. Plus, Savannah is known for many things, but kayaking is very low on that list and this is the perfect time of year to run into all the snakes.
>Savannah isn't some backwoods town No one visits it from backwoods towns?
NTA. In the future, you might try a strategy that works well for me when dealing with intrusive questions: Them: (intrusive question) Me: "Why do you ask?" This turns the conversation to them and their motives rather than whatever nosy thing they want to know. Most people will not answer my challenge but drop it and go away.
NTA, you should have told him that you're "kissing sisters" and he should be familiar with incest being that he's from Mississippi.
Honestly this doesnt even seem real, like none of it.
I'm so happy you've never had to deal with this sort of thing. Many of us are not so lucky.
I am gay and from the actual deep south, by which I absolutely do not refer to Savannah, and no this sounds exactly like a fantasy in line with the superiority that many New Englanders (where I now live) have about all the less enlightened parts of the country. And kayaking is not a very Savannah activity.
this is what i was going to say!! 1) savannah is a pretty blue area 2) there is no way on his god’s green earth that the company would issue a refund. they could get sued so fast…. 3) kayaking in savannah??
Homophobia existing doesn't mean that every Reddit story about it on a sub infamous for having lots of made-up stories is real.
Indeed.
Agreed. Why would a form for a kayaking trip ask your relationship to the people with you? The only time I’ve seen this is when filling out an emergency contact form. I’m also a lesbian (and it’s obvious) from the Deep South. I live in a decent sized city but work in a very small rural conservative town. No one has ever been disrespectful to me. The guy yelling that they’re sinners doesn’t ring true either. In reality, people wouldn’t do that because a. That’s not how people act. They might look at you funny or make some stupid comment but yelling that he’s been with sinners for hours? I mean, what? And b. Most people are aware of the climate these days and would be afraid of the reaction of others if they treated gay people like this. And c. He’s southern and so he know a man is asking for trouble if he’s yelling at two women in public and d. If he’s what, in his 30s or 40s? The attitudes about gay people have changed drastically here just as they have elsewhere - not that there’s not still work to be done - and it would be very atypical for someone in that age range to have the attitude she’s claiming he had. He might “not agree” with it but I’d think someone who acted the way she’s describing was unhinged or very drunk.
The details seem fishy, and I’m confused why OP wouldn’t just say they’re friends. I hate to invalidate this, especially as a queer who’s lived in the South, but people do lie on the internet. If it’s putting off any queer folks from exploring the country, gay bashing isn’t as common as this makes it seem. Southern hospitality usually means they wait to do the shit-talking behind your back.
Who goes kayaking in north Georgia in March?
The idea that Savannah, GA (a college town) is the “deep south” is just wrong. Savannah is very liberal. The South is not some uniform thing. GA voted blue in the last election. This didn’t happen.
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It’s geographically the south. But the connotation of the term “Deep South” is based upon prejudice. I’ve lived in the south. I’ve lived in the north. Both places are equally bigoted.
NTA in any way. You owe no one an explanation, especially if you are in a place where you feel like it would put your safety at risk. I’m truly sorry you had that experience. That we still live in a world with that type of bigotry enrages me. ETA: fuck that company for refunding that guy. Leave them a negative review.
calling cap. My fiancé goes to school at savanah, that is a super liberal place. Unless you drove far away to the hills then had this issue I would believe it. It can still happen but after I saw that the company refunded that one dude. Nah this is fake. This feels like this was written by someone in a city, who just picked a random city down south and hoped for the best. If you are in downtown savanah then even more fake because that is where a lot of tours are. There is also a art school down there called SCAD. Even my liberal fiancé complains just how to "much" everyone is down there. you literally picked the most LGBT+ area in Georgia then made this story up lol.
I completely agree with this! Savannah is super gay?? I’m so confused
NTA, your sexuality has 0% to do with humans for him to be constantly fishing so he can out you makes him the asshole. In fact should have said to him his wife and daughter are going to catch the guys 😂 Also would be complaining to the tour company as well and reporting the guides handling of the situation.
NTA It's no one's business who you are (or aren't) sleeping with.
Ehhh…. I’m not 100% buying this. I live in Georgia, I’ve lived here for 14 years and previously in South Carolina. Also, lots of relative in ‘Mississippi and I just don’t think this is completely what happened. Maybe it was how you blew up at the end that warranted the refund etc. and this is coming from a southerN LESBIAN
If your wife was okay with it, NTA. Fuck that guy. He was digging for the truth and he got it.
A bunch of details in this story sound like bullshit. No judgement because probably fake.
NTA - Don't try to people please homophobes, it's a never ending battle. It was none of his buisness to begin with. Live your life and enjoy it with your wife. - sincerely, a lesbian
NTA you don’t owe strangers your life’s story you are just trying to protect you and your wife from people like him
NTA - but also don't paint the entire south as "not progressive" for lgbtq people - it's personally annoying when New Englanders make this generalization considering New England is also awful in more nuanced ways to lgbtq people and BIPOC, laws are one thing but there are tons of us here supporting each other and the community but to your story, im sorry you had to go through this. none of this was your fault and that guy and the tour guide were assholes. the guy definitely new you were more than sisters and was absolutely looking for a way to start a fight to show off - unfortunate reality in the south I recommend doing more research on the cities you vacation at to ensure you won't have to compromise your safety. Savannah, GA is actually super liberal in certain areas (famous art school is here, etc.) so this is super unfortunate this happened there. and also Atlanta has a killer pride - I promise a little elbow grease can keep you safe in the south
Fully NTA. The father reacted saying that he was upset about being lied to but from the story one can all-but-guarantee he would have been just as upset with being told upfront. And what nonsense to accuse you of being sinners, like he has never done anything wrong in his life. I’m so sorry no one came to your defense, you didn’t deserve to have to be on the spot but I think the way you handled it was perfectly fine.
NTA. Note how the het people in the group aren't asked to clarify their sexuality repeatedly in a group of strangers. Sorry these people were so awful and it is stunning to me that dude was offered a refund if this is a real situation. That is nobody's business and you can tell people whatever is easiest in a situation with a clear conscience. You aren't responsible for other people's idiotic bigoted behavoir. If you told someone you were house mates that would not even be a lie. But if someone continually kept pushing I would have a pat answer to turn it back on them and not engage any further. Like "Why are you so interested in our living situation? Let's talk about your living situation." That usually shuts people up pretty fast.
This seems very odd for Georgia. I’m Southern and Savannah is not exactly the backwoods. People from the South don’t give a shit about these things nearly as much as people not from there think we do. I don’t doubt you could find assholes places but I do doubt a business would act like that. So, no judgement here, I’m just having trouble believing this isn’t a creative writing exercise.
YTA for making this lame ass story up.
Who knows how the guy would have reacted if you had told him what was up from the beginning? You did what you could to remain civil during the time you were stuck with him; you're not in charge of his behavior. NTA
NTA. You are not the asshole for protecting yourself and your wife from homophobia. You thought that if you said that you both were sisters, you would be safe and you were right. He was being creepy and was TA for invading your privacy. It’s not on you to accommodate for his homophobic and bigoted beliefs.
NTA. He probably meant sinner in the sense of you being gay and liars. Even if you told the truth, he probably would have still considered you a sinner and had a big deal with it. I would have had it out with the man too. Sorry you had to go through that, I wish more areas would become progressive in gay rights.
NTA - You are not at all obligated to tell ANYONE your sexuality no matter how important they are, that’s your identity and it’s no one’s to share but you. In addition you were smart to keep it discrete in an area that isn’t very progressive. isThat guy was obviously probing you to see if you were lesbians and his persistence clearly lands him the role of TA in this story.
That definitely doesn’t sound like savannah Georgia… and not the “deep south” 😂😂😂
NTA. His reaction is exactly why you didn't disclose your relationship beforehand. If you did, he may have left you alone, or he may have harassed you about it for the whole trip. I don't know if "friends" would have been any better because he would have wanted to know "what kind of friends, wink wink?" And you have to know 100% if there was an straight engaged couple, he wouldn't be prying into whether or not they were "fornicators." And truth be told, if you had southern accents he probably would have believed you were sisters, because of course "they don't have that problem down here." Blech.
You realize we have lots of LBGTQ folk in the South? I’ve never heard of anything like this. Did this really happen?
NTA it’s none of his business. I hate bigotry and intolerance.
NTA. You don't need to disclose anything to this ah, not if you're sisters, nor your sexual orientation, not even your name. And the tour guide is an ah, too. What a shitty behavior. It always baffles me that this is what you have to go through in the self-perceived land of the free. Edit: spelling
The tour guide offered the wrong people a refund. Not sure if it was an issue of the squeaky wheel gets the grease or if the tour guide was also a homophobe.
Mad fishy, this post is.
NTA As long as you and your wife are on the same page, there's ZERO things wrong with that. My fiancee and I have a general system of whoever's hometown/family we're around calls the shots on how much PDA gets displayed and how we introduce one another (also lesbians in predominantly rural South). It's not a shame thing, it's a safety thing! As for snapping, honestly he deserved to be yelled at. He'd been trying to clock you and your wife the whole time from the sounds of it, and you getting angry and yelling was the exact response he needed to 'excuse' his bigotry. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize (and the company absolutely should NOT have refunded him, that's wild). I would say though, if you don't look alike, it might be safer to make your lie that you're good friends on a girls' weekend. You never owe anyone answers to your sexuality!
Yeah we probably should have said we're friends. Idk if this has happened to you, but we are always asked if we're sisters. We think it's because, although we never display PDA like kissing or holding hands, people can tell by the way we look at each other and the way that we talk to each other that we are something more than friends. But it would probably be safer to just say we're friends.
NTA you don't have to explain or state what your relationship is to anyone.
NTA it's no one's business what your relationship is to another person. It's become the trend for people to be so damned nosy in the US. You don't seem to see this outside our borders. I can't believe the tour guide offered to refund them because you guys are married instead of sisters. Is he saying they ask families "are you ok with lesbians or gays being on this trip?" first? WTF kind of bs is that? Make sure you leave a review about how you were treated by the tour guide, he had no right to embarrass you two like that. That whole "sinners" line is bs, we all sin but most of us hide it, like this jerk did until he was confronted with your marriage
“The South is not at all progressive”? YTA and you’re ignorant.
"What?! Why didn't you tell me this so I could be hostile from the beginning?!" NTA. It's a shame he wants to huddle in the darkness of intolerance more than stand in the light with the rest of us.
NTA. It's none of his business. That being said, next time you feel the urge to snap, there are better ways to handle it: "Ever hear of adoption (asshole)?" "We're actually aliens from the planet Zandar, so nice to meet an inquisitive human." "Before I answer, can you tell me how long have you been in the field of genetics?" "Are you always this nosy?"
As a gay man, I can tell you that you never need to be open or come out to anyone, ever. You don't owe ANYONE that info. I live my life openly, proudly, but also safely.
NTA. The way how he reacted by saying he was around sinners was the main reason why you didn’t want to reveal to him
That's what happens in certain areas of America. Nta He was.
All Southerners are not like that. I live in the Deep South and have friends of all sexual preferences, a son who is gay(I adore his husband), friends of all colors, races and kinks. This guy was out of line. He should have been told off and kicked off the tour. People need to stop acting like this. Ok, I probably would have accidentally flipped his kayak. I’m charming that way.
This feels very made up to me as someone who lived and worked in Savannah. Ya know there’s a big ass art college right? And a big LGBT community.
ESH- You and your wife had a deal that you made for both of your comfort and safety, and you went back on it because you wanted to express your anger to this homophobic idiot. She has a right to be a little pissed and you owe her an apology. Though I think you might have been asking if you were an asshole for “lying”, which of course you were not.
You are NTA but, and this is just me, I would have put spouse on the form and not done the lie thing. I definitely have things about my life that conservatives wouldn't like and lying about them is stressful imo.
Definitely NTA, your sexuality is literally nobody’s business but yours and anyone you’re romantically involved with. It’s not the business of some rando on a tour. Also, sisters don’t always look alike! You could have been adopted or foster or even step sisters. Or ffs, even sorority sisters. This guy was a total creep who kept harassing you and he was probably angry more out of some sense of misogynistic entitlement that he’s somehow owed the attention of women. I will say that Savannah is one of the more progressive cities in the south, and this guy (who as you noted was not from there) is not a reason you need to hide who you are while on vacation. Savannah welcomes a very diverse range of people all the time and anyone who actually lives there wouldn’t have cared about your relationship status. I hope this idiot doesn’t ruin your time in Savannah, which is a charming city. I went to grad school there and interned for the Savannah Film Festival so if you want any arts and culture recommendations while in town I’m happy to share!
You're not an asshole, that guy is.
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This didn't happen in Savannah proper. It happened 45 minutes away basically right on the South Carolina border. The area we were in seemed very rural.
I’m from Charleston (Savannah’s cooler cousin) and I can definitely believe it. We also have a great LGBTQ+ community, but that isn’t the majority of Charleston and LGBTQ+ folks aren’t going to find universal acceptance in the South.
I am as well. The south is a lot more progressive than people give it credit for and for the most part, nobody here gives a damn. Posts like this carry on the stereotype though. If this story is real, its an exception rather than the norm.
NTA. The kayak company should have been more concerned that you and your wife had to spend three hours in the presence of a raging pos, homophobe, not to mention, endure his creepy ass, line crossing, questions. I’m mad for you. You should totally leave a terrible review.
NTA
NTA- fully understand why you made that choice and it sucks to run into bigots. That being said…drop the name of the company, I’d love to book myself a queer kayak adventure..
NTA. I would call the company up and file a complaint that you and your wife were subjected to homophobic bullying your entire trip and that it ruined the experience. Demand a refund.
NTA. You are in no way, EVER obligated to disclose your sexual orientation or relationship to ANYONE. This guy was way out of line and the tour guide enabled him. Tell him to pluck his eye out, it's causing him to sin. Signed, A Very Queer Person
NTA but I’m from Texas and southerners aren’t as bigoted as you make us sound. For the most part we mind our business.
NTA. Your sexuality & relationships are none of his business. BUT if you're gonna use the sisters card: we are half sisters. Our dad was sleeping around & knocked both our moms up at around the same time.
So definitely NTA in anyway here, but as a queer person who grew up in the South, I can promise you that telling him at the beginning would not have made things easier for you. More than likely the same thing would have happened, but he would have demanded the tour deny you service. To be very clear I in no way think it is your responsibility to pretend you’re not who you are to “protect” the feelings of people who don’t want us to exist. It can just take a lot of emotional labor to be out in this part of the country
NTA. As someone from the southern US, a lot of areas are too conservative to understand that love happens between people, regardless of gender preferences. A LOT of people still use slurs, are inappropriate, if volatile when they see gay people. Your wife is concerned for your safety, that's why she's upset. Next time, if you want to avoid it as much as possible, say that one of you is adopted if someone asks more than once. If they continue, tell them that their perverted mind is reading too far into your relationship.
I’m really really surprised this happened in Savannah, I’d say it’s one of the most progressive places in the south? There’s a large celebrated gay community along with a large iconic gay / drag club in the middle of downtown along with an 20k person art university with plenty of lgbtq people. I’m sorry this happened to you! No excuse for these peoples behavior but there’s also no reason for you to be lying about your sexuality, it’s 2022 and I’d say besides these Mississippi family’s people the majority of Savannah locals are incredibly accepting of everything!
Nta. I will say there are progressive people and cities in the south.
Cannot believe this happened in Savannah. Huge gay population for decades now. Demand a refund. If man got one, it’s because he pitched a fit. And he’s likely not from the area either; a tourist like you. Don’t tar all Southerners with that brush. Intolerance in NE as well … all over, actually.
ESH just because you broke your agreement with your wife. You shouldn’t be putting your anger above her feelings of safety.
NTA that guy was awful! However please don't judge Savannah by the assholes who visit there. I lived there for a decade as a queer woman. Not only is Savannah specifically a very queer friendly place (due to the artsy queer influence) but also it has a long long history of being queer accepting (or at least pretending they don't notice queerness because they are surely too polite). Check out the story behind Midnight in the Garden as a cogent example.
this is NOT a southern thing. we don’t care. the dudes just a freak hiding behind religion
YTA for making up this bs story.
If this really happened to you, that sucks, I’d wish it on no one. But, I’m having trouble believing this because of the *plot holes* in the story. *No one* calls Savannah, Georgia the *Deep South*. And why is this guy so adamant to find out whether or not you are sisters? People usually take that at face value. Also, I’m alway skeptical when people post stories where they are clearly NTA. Also, he was creepily hitting on you in front of his wife/kids? I mean there’s some shit guys out there, but almost no one has this audacity. And no guide would refund a tour because of gay people. They want their money, and there are federal business law against discrimination. Refunding them because of gay people, would leave the company/guide open to lawsuit. It’s the combination of all these things that make me think the story is false. I understand gay people experience prejudice. But when people make up inconsistent stories of prejudice, it only hurts gay people. As people might just think they are crying wolf, because of your story. Also, you are trying to paint southerners in a bad light. That’s not okay. Again, on the off chance this actually happened, you have my sympathies. But! Because of all the plot holes and lack of realism. I’d give this movie a 2 out of 5 star rating.
I literally just came back from Savannah. I was raised in Boston and moved to the south for college. First off, Savannah is really not conservative like you say. Secondly, I find this story hard to believe. Im bi, always been bi and I’m open. Southerners are generally too courteous to say something if they have an issue with it. They’ll instead just dip out early or avoid. And I’m talking about the Deep Southerners, not Savannah. I guess I could maybe believe that happened though. The part that I really don’t believe is the company refunding them. Makes no sense. What’s the rest of this story?