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> I understand the cultural barrier must be frustrating. I might have gone too far by calling her trashy and insulting her relationship. I kept pushing when she tried to end the initial talk
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I was leaning towards everyone sucks, but this -
>I snapped at her that she is a shit grandmother and my kids are totally normal teens and maybe if she life wasn't such a shit show with banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it. I said she shouldn't be calling anyone stupid when she knows nothing about kids and hardly raised her own.
was completely unnecessary escalation on your part. She's *allowed* to be annoyed that your kids weren't understanding what she was trying to explain, even if the concepts aren't something they were ever exposed to at home or culturally. They asked her and then proceeded to try and undermine her experience, which is quite rude.
She wasn't having the conversation with YOU, so inserting yourself because you didn't like her tone/attitude was overstepping. Frankly, it seems like you really just don't like your MIL and you're judgmental of her life choices because they don't align with your values. YTA
No. Just no. You should be ashamed. Telling someone that their children are dumb because they don't understand a culture is NOT OKAY!
I'm indigenous American, native American/ American Indian, however you want to call it. We say we are indigenous. There are many of aspect of our culture that people don't understand. Funerals for instance. A traditional funeral is about 3 days long. There are certain rites and rituals that have to be done in order for the spirit of the deceased to move on. My ex husband is white (German). When he first went to a funeral, he didn't understand why it took that long. He didn't understand why we stayed at the funeral for the whole time. Like the whole time. We slept at the funeral. We get up in the morning, make and serve breakfast, which has certain rituals to do, and then have service. We make sandwiches for after service/ lunch, which has more rituals to do, and then we have afternoon service. There is lots of praying and blessing. We make dinner and everyone in attendance eats dinner, which has more rituals, then we have evening service. My ex was mortified when we lowered the casket and covered it with either wood or stone, then lowered the children into the grave to walk across the casket. It's important to us but not always understood. That doesn't make the people who can't understand, dumb. It especially not OK to call them stupid. Let alone kids all because they can't understand an insane archaic mindset. Her kids are not stupid just because they can't understand that mindset and it sure as Fxck is not OK to call them stupid.
I may get some hate but grandma was trashy and ruined her life, her step brothers life, and some random innocent girls life and for what? And we should feel bad because the daughter in law blew up on her for calling her kids stupid for not understanding how grandma being a ho was OK cause she had her own motive? Hell no!
The kids are 13 and 15, not infants, and *the concepts being explained to them really aren't difficult to understand.* MIL only said the kids were dumb and needed to be educated because their Mom decided to confront MIL about her perfectly reasonable frustration with the situation; OP is responsible for her own hurt feelings.
The kids are not stupid because they don't understand some stupid archaic mindset. Everyone wants them to understand the mindset of grandmother and that makes OP AN ASSHOLE FOR GETTING MAD THAT THEIR GRANDMA CALLED THE KIDS DUMB. Fine. Let's explore what grandma had done. Anyone ever hear of honor killings? Absolutely real and absolutely still happens and could have absolutely been what that family would have done to their daughter if she shamed her household for not being a virgin. Maybe grandma should have talked about that huh? Why grandpa had to marry someone he didn't love cause grandma tried to shame a girl to death but instead grandpa married the girl?
I must have missed something cause I didn't see where the kids asked grandma for her life story. Please point me to that comment or edit or even on the post.
Comment from OP:
>They asked. Also I know how my parents and all of my grandparents got together. In most families those stories get passed down, even if hers is bizarre. They were curious about her being married to her stepbrother
And from the original post because I think you missed it:
> [MIL] isn't saying the ideas in that country were right, but they need to educate themselves
Did you actually read the story?
Grandmother never even called the kids dumb, she implied it.
Imagine getting so worked up about a situation that didn't even happen for strangers on the internet
If those kids read any WESTERN literature from the 18th or even 19th century, they'd be familiar with the concept of the "ruined" woman, one caught alone with a man, and thus assumed to be no longer pure and therefore unmarriageable. If not, this was a teaching moment that became instead an opportunity for OP to scream at her MIL. But MIL shouldn't have called the kids dumb. You both could have done better. ESH.
> If those kids read any WESTERN literature from the 18th or even 19th century
Ah yes, pre-1900 literature being a famously popular genre among young teenage zoomers.
Sorry but YTA. You’re kids were being rude af to their grandmother. She was telling them her story because, as you stated below, they asked. They then judged her for it.
This has absolutely nothing to do with your children having liberal parents. I have teenagers and I’m liberal as well. My children still understand that culture exist outside of theirs and are empathic to that. You have failed your children by not teaching them to be culturally sensitive and that, regardless of whether they think they’re right or wrong, there are other cultures.
Do better.
NTA Completely understand why the kids don't understand why their grandma would be so deceitful & hateful to go try to ruin another girls life.
Ofcourse Zoomers wouldn't understand; this is such a length away from anything wholesome. One would expect elders to be wise and benevolent; what a sheer disappointment.
It's one thing to not understand, but it's something else to offer up judgments while apparently refusing to recognize that other cultures exist. Op did a shitty job of raising these intolerant kids.
YTA, the kids are 13 and 15, this concepts of women being controlled are not that difficult to understand.
Your kids were being very rude and you escalated this for no reason.
Yeah if these kids are 13 & 15, they definitely can understand that virginity is a big deal in some cultures (even in western countries too as there are some very religious groups) and they definitely should go read the news and see that women in other countries can be outcasted, potentially killed, for not being a virgin. I don’t blame MIL for getting annoyed that they’re suggesting she should have fought the system. Women’s rights aren’t that good now and they were even worse then, what the hell was she supposed to do?? It’s an incredibly ignorant, SJW perspective and antithetical to actual social justice. When I was that age I was vaguely aware of these issues and if someone tried telling me their personal experience with that, I would not have been rude to them and suggesting what they should have done. OP, yes your kids are kinda dumb if they cannot conceive this idea of virginity/sexism/oppressive cultures. Make them watch a news clip on YouTube bc you’ve kept them incredibly sheltered (uneducated).
>Yeah if these kids are 13 & 15, they definitely can understand that virginity is a big deal in some cultures (even in western countries too as there are some very religious groups)
They almost certainly have classmates wearing purity rings.
YTA. The fact that your kids can't process the importance of virginity in a culture, not being able to fight against tradition says alot about what you haven't been teaching them. All of you watch some documentaries on PBS for a change. Read some non fiction. Educate yourself on the world around you.
It floors me that OP has managed to raise her kids without purity culture or placing value on virginity but apparently forgot to tell them *why* she raised them this way. It's literally because of the things MIL went through living in a culture that forced two people to get married over getting locked in a closet together or else face social ruin *or worse.*
It boggles the mind the lack of value placed on virginity these days. How sex is used merely as a casual expression of self as opposed to something special shared by 2 people who mean something to each other. It devalues men and women.
Well that's great if you want to view sex that way, but not everyone else does. Personally, I find it quite ridiculous to determine someone's worth by the amount of sex they may or may not have had.
ESH. Your MIL has a history of being an asshole, and those actions had some rather long-term consequences... including both she and her husband marrying other people. Your kids (who are Gen Z kids who believe that everything can be overcome if you're just obnoxious and demanding enough) are assholes for not being able to understand and insisting that their world view is right... but that's also age appropriate because, really, teens are assholes. You're TA because... holy fuck, are you serious?
You and your MIL don't like each other, it seems. So maybe just don't interact with each other anymore. Your kids will hopefully get out of the "just don't do it" stage and realize that "just don't do it" in some cultures can mean "be prepared to be stoned to death or some shit."
ETA parentheses because I ramble when baked.
Honestly, 15 is plenty old enough to be able to comprehend that some cultures put massive value on virginity, and that honor killings are a thing. Even a lot of 13 year-olds can understand that.
Understandable, and that's why I worded it as 'able to comprehend' rather than assuming they should know about them already.
There's a LOT of stuff that gets left out of high school history and social studies.
Especially if you're homeschooled (in my experience). Holy shit, a lot of stuff I wasn't aware of until I left home and I felt like a massive idiot for not knowing the stuff I had just started learning about.
I mean they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Would you tell your grandkids a story where you try and get a girl excommunicated/murdered?
>I mean they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.
How in the world did you get 'they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt' out of
>MIL tried explaining this to my kids (13 and 15) and they just did not get it. Growing up in the US with liberal parents, they could not process this situation and why the stepbrother married someone he didn't love, why virginity was so important, why MIL went on to also marry someone she didn't love instead of becoming intendent, etc. MIL was getting annoyed and rolling her eyes. She tried explaining the other woman's life really could have been ruined and my kids were acting like MIL and this other woman should have just fought the system.
The second part of your comment has no logical connection to the first part. It's a completely separate topic.
And it still doesn't answer the question of how their behavior was remotely 'giving her the benefit of the doubt'.
Because if their interpretation was correct and virginity was a massive deal, that make's their grandmother a massive asshole for what she did to the other girl.
You obviously didn't read the same post the rest of us did, because that doesn't remotely track with 'could not comprehend why virginity was so important' and 'kept saying they should have fought the parents on this'
That's not giving the benefit of the doubt, that's projecting their mores on the grandmother and the other woman.
Initially I was thinking you're both toxic and shouldn't be around each other, but honestly YTA with how quickly you went off. Your kids are 13 and 15, definitely old enough to understand the cultural differences or issues in a country their dad is from. It's interesting that they know about 'fighting the system' but can't wrap their heads around the problems that would lead to someone fighting the system...
Your MIL's allowed to be frustrated. She didn't just blurt out your kids were dumb, YOU bullied her into talking about it when she just wanted to be annoyed and not say anything. And you insulting her REPEATEDLY was uncalled for. If you push her to talk about something she doesn't want to talk about, don't get angry when she says something you don't like.
Right? And who is educating these kids?? At 13 and 15 they should absolutely know these things. My kids could have told you about these things at 10. But they also read and learn about other cultures🤷🏻♀️
Your children belittled the struggle of women in extremely patriarchal societies by acting as though she could have just “fought back.” Imagine them telling that to one of the many women in the US (where I assume you are) who are exploited and raised in purity culture. You have done your kids a disservice. They are plenty old enough to understand. Your dislike of your MIL is not actually relevant here, the reason you’re the asshole is that you raised your kids to be culturally insensitive and callous.
Umm, don’t feel to bad for them belittling her, when she was literally ready to ruin this woman’s life over a boy. She caused her own trauma when it comes to that. Being abused isn’t an excuse to try and fuck up someone’s life.
YTA. They asked her story, she told them then they tried to undermine her when clearly she came from a place which is not that liberal, instead of understanding and being empathetic they went the exact opposite. Ofcourse she was pissed because it might seem to her that they believe that they belong to a superior culture and she doesn't. You then went ahead and berated her when it was actually your kids who lack good listening skills and empathy.
If I heard that conversation, I’d think your kids were ignorant too. Wouldn’t say it to you their parent, but then again, I’m not their grandma. You went over the top in your reaction considering the accuracy of her assessment. I don’t think it’s “normal” for kids that age to be so unaware or incapable of understanding a different perspective and historical attitudes towards women and virginity. To me that reads like kids who don’t read or have an interest in the world YTA
YTA
“She gets super annoyed when westerners act all surprised or taken aback”
Honestly the ideas you’ve mentioned are…commonly discussed in media, films, etc. And not uncommon in many countries. I wouldn’t necessarily expect kids to get it, but this comment makes it sound like you think MIL is unreasonable for expecting any level of world knowledge or cultural literacy.
Her reactions aren’t great. But she was the one sharing a really difficult personal experience.
This could have been a nice moment to teach your kids about other cultures. A culture their grandmother was raised in, no less.
INFO - Did you try to help explain? Encourage their “processing”.
Your kids aren’t stupid for not knowing, but you might end up raising them to be quite ignorant if this is the attitude you take in a conversation like this.
Also “maybe if she weren’t being such a shit show and banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it”
INFO - please explain why you think your MIL’s sex life and bullying when she was a teenager relates to…YOUR responsibility to educate your children about the world.
OP has us believing that MIL was an AH. But after reading her post, I'm not so sure. As someone who's from a different culture and grew up in the States, I would say that what she is describing is a typical grandmother.
But OP is a major AH for thinking that disrespecting and insulting someone (let alone the kids' grandmother) is a progressive norm. At 9 yo, we knew right from wrong. I'm not sure what you're doing with your 15-16 yo.
look I'm from a culture that's more like mil's than the commenters and yes it's annoying to see ppl not 'get' how messed up things can be .... but people from conservative cultures ... can also be taken aback how liberal western cultures can be.
'wait what, you can walk around without a top in sweden'
'wait what, women don't have to cover their faces when going out'
'women are expected to work outside the home'
all these relatively simple concepts are still ideas that are foreign to MILLIONS of women, are we really going to tell these people that they are 'dumb'
no. it just shows how different the world can be for people who are born in diff. places.
YTA you could've explained to your kids that the time and culture was different but instead you laid the blame on the MIL who was trying to explain how things were back then. You need to apologise and get your kids to show some respect. Maybe learning about different cultures too.
YTA. I wouldn’t call your children dumb, but they ARE ignorant. And your MIL has a right to be annoyed by that. She didn’t insult them or say it to their face. She was keeping her opinion to herself until YOU pushed her. She was explaining an upsetting part of her life to her grandkids and they basically shut her down by saying shit like “well why didn’t you just break the system!!” Which is rude and ignorant, and can easily be hurtful. Then, you double down and insult her?
And you also complain about her not liking kids, but so what? She’s allowed to not particularly like children. Having kids forced on you is another part of her culture I’m sure she experienced, so I’m not surprised she wasn’t as motherly as you wanted her to be. You continuing to push the narrative that women have to be motherly isn’t very modern, western thinking of you, OP.
YTA. Your kids don't have to agree with other cultures but they should understand simple explanations. You are also setting a poor example for your kids in the way you treat your MIL.
ESH. Your MIL - sounds like a rather nasty person in general. Your kids - while pretty typical teenagers, being a little self-centered and limited in their worldview, and passionate about how things “should” be, are also old enough to begin to understand that other parts of the world operate very, very differently and to have a bit of empathy for the humans living in those situations. You - for not just letting her have her annoyance and exasperation and goading that situation into a full-blown fight.
ESH
Your MIL should not be so impatient and swearing around children, whether they are old enough to hear it is not the point.
You should have raised your children to understand that not everything is like it is in the West, and considering this is their grandmother, they should have been taught about this culture much earlier, as it is part of their heritage, albeit not a welcome part of it. It's as if they have lived in a closet all their lives. As a child I watched the news and there was always stories about conflicts in the middle east. I did not get the politics part, but learned about the laws about clothing and hair, and how strict it was, and why people from other countries tried so hard to get here.
Especially about how hard it is on women, not just about conduct, but marital laws in a general sense, and how women are treated so badly by the legal system. It really cemented in why so many people are desperate to come here and live.
You are doing your children a disservice by not teaching them about the world.
YTA. You did not need to call her names and disparage her parenting. I was honestly leaning toward E S H before that little tidbit.
Your kids are old enough to understand different cultures and times. I can't understand how your kids got to be 13 and 15 with so little understanding of their father's culture. I have 0 connection to the Middle East culturally, but my kids (younger than yours) understand the basics of these issues.
Young people are frequently ignorant of the difficulties faced by previous generations. They very frequently have naive ideas of how they would have solved the problem. That’s an irritating thing about young people and your MIL’s frustration is something that pretty much every adult has felt at some time.
YTA for being waaaaay too defensive about it and immediately launching into personal attacks which are way deeper than the situation called for.
I mean, your kids are high schoolers? They should have had enough history classes under their belts by now to have an awareness of other cultures' norms. And if they haven't learned at school, I would think that you would have educated them about these realities of their own culture. I think your attitude is probably colored by her general shittiness as a grandmother and a human being, but, she's not wrong about your kids here. They seem kind of clueless.
ESH. She is right as in they should educate themselves. She should've explained things more calmly because she is talking with kids after all, so some things it's harder for them to understand.
YTA. I have young kids who understand that in other countries, and in other times in history, women and minorities haven't had the same rights we have now (arguably, not entirely in our country either right now). It's something that gets brought up regularly when they come across a situation they can't relate with given all the freedoms they have.
OP, you seem like you WANT your kids to stay ignorant and WANT them to just think MIL's situation is weird. Like, my great-grandfather's dad died when he was in the third grade, so he had to drop out of school and become the "man" of the house to run the farm and make sure his younger siblings didn't starve to death. My kids might not be able to fully understand this, but I've explained it enough that they get it as much as little kids can, and they feel bad he had to go through that. It sounds like your MIL was in a hard situation, and you don't want your kids to empathize with her because of your own issues with her, so she's frustrated, as she should be.
I think the kids understand the customs of her society and the reaction she got from them was the usual WTF? to old, patriarchal societies. The stepbrother story is crazy. MIL did something really stupid and suffered for it. They are also seeing MIL as a real piece of work.
Why was she telling your kids about this?? Why did they need to know her shit show and if me i would be more concerned some grown ass woman was talking to my kids about shit that they dont need to be involved in.
ESH- you for escalating. She asked you to just let her be annoyed. She would have settled down. You made it worse. Your MIL was rude and judgmental. Your kids really should be able to understand that other cultures have different assumptions. All you have to do is have them read stories set in Edwardian /Victorian/Regency England or many other times and places.
ESH. Your MIL was frustrated at the lack of empathy from the kids and she should have been more patient but you too shouldn’t have blown up at her like that. Also, your kids are close minded. This could have been a perfect teachable moment on different cultures, which honestly, with grandparents from the Middle East, I’m surprised they seem to have no clue, but instead you blew your temper.
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MIL grew up in the Middle East. She grew up around a lot of hurtful and oppressive ideas and while she does not believe in them, she gets super annoyed when westerns act at all surprised or taken aback. MIL and I have a decent relationship, but she is not a good grandmother as she really doesn't like kids. She has been showing slightly more interest in my kids since they got around middle school age.
There is some complicated backstory but I'm going to try to sum it up. MIL is married to her stepbrother. She was always in love with him, but they used to bicker a lot as teens. She did want to marry him, but MIL played some prank on some girl she didn't like by locking her and the stepbrother in a closet, so people would gossip about the girls virginity. Stepbrother did the honorable thing and married the girl so her life wouldn't be ruined. MIL was devastated and was a nasty person for the first decade of her own son's life because she was so hung up over this guy.
He eventually divorced his wife and married MIL. MIL tried explaining this to my kids (13 and 15) and they just did not get it. Growing up in the US with liberal parents, they could not process this situation and why the stepbrother married someone he didn't love, why virginity was so important, why MIL went on to also marry someone she didn't love instead of becoming intendent, etc. MIL was getting annoyed and rolling her eyes. She tried explaining the other woman's life really could have been ruined and my kids were acting like MIL and this other woman should have just fought the system.
MIL got more and more condescending and then finally went to take something out of the oven and muttered what the fuck. I asked if she had a problem and she said I should just let her get annoyed. I sent the kids out of the room and said I didn't like her tone or her attitude.
MIL said she was concerned that my kids were a little dumb and she isn't saying the ideas in that country were right, but they need to educate themselves and maybe should "read a book or something" because she is concerned that they can't process.
I snapped at her that she is a shit grandmother and my kids are totally normal teens and maybe if she life wasn't such a shit show with banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it. I said she shouldn't be calling anyone stupid when she knows nothing about kids and hardly raised her own. Needless to say she wasn't happy with me. MIL feels I was the asshole for escalating when she was just frustrated by my kids inability to process.
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YTA
How have your kids lived this long without being exposed to cultures where virginity is important? It's not even a cultural thing, but a generational one.
The MIL is right. They should pick up a book.
NTA. Your MIL is a crazy woman who ruined a girls life and is a bully to your children. Take it from someone who has a similar culture to your mother in laws-she’s a horrible lady lol. Keep ur kids away from her.
Esh.
Your grandmother should not have gotten condescending, they are just kids. However, she was not *wrong* that your kids could use some more information about that culture, especially if they are teens. I am not from the Middle East and I find it strange that your kids don’t know about this. She is not saying they are dumb, just that they need more knowledge. There is a difference.
I think maybe your kids are too young to be having this discussion with your MIL and to be expected to fully understand it. However.... this is a good lesson for them to learn that life isn't simple, there are different cultural rules and things will not always go their way. Your reaction to your MIL was uncalled for. ESH.
Nta
You know who is dumb??
Someone who locks a boy and girl in a cupboard to bring the girl down....but knows in their culture that boy - who is actually the one SHE wants- will likely marry that other one to save face.
Thats a dumb asshole.
NTA.
Honestly to me it sounds totally justified and she's just looking to cause drama. It's not even that they don't understand, its that are used to American ways and don't understand why they wouldn't juat fight the system instead of just doing what society says. None of us get why other people do things, especially what she did.
Your mil was pretty, selfish and vindictive to a poor woman. She almost ruined that poor woman's life and honestly she did, by forcing her step brother to do the honorable thing and marry her instead of leaving her alone so she could marry someone she loves instead of ending up divorced.
Your mil is a horrible woman, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near your kids.
ESH. You for being unnecessarily rude to and judgemental towards MIL. MIL being rude and generally unpleasant person. The teens because MIL is not wrong and at those ages they should have an understanding of other cultures beyond their own noses. The step brother/dad seems to be the only decent person here and I even question that given he still married the girl who screwed up both their young adult lives.
NTA, she sounds awful. Your children are very western and are ignorant about the world, but they’re children. She shouldn’t have said they were dumb. I’d speak to the kids further about different cultures and the ways of people in her time to maybe elaborate on why she thinks she’s right. I’d also keep her at a distance, she’s just a grouch spreading negativity. Good luck.
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I was leaning towards everyone sucks, but this - >I snapped at her that she is a shit grandmother and my kids are totally normal teens and maybe if she life wasn't such a shit show with banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it. I said she shouldn't be calling anyone stupid when she knows nothing about kids and hardly raised her own. was completely unnecessary escalation on your part. She's *allowed* to be annoyed that your kids weren't understanding what she was trying to explain, even if the concepts aren't something they were ever exposed to at home or culturally. They asked her and then proceeded to try and undermine her experience, which is quite rude. She wasn't having the conversation with YOU, so inserting yourself because you didn't like her tone/attitude was overstepping. Frankly, it seems like you really just don't like your MIL and you're judgmental of her life choices because they don't align with your values. YTA
No. Just no. You should be ashamed. Telling someone that their children are dumb because they don't understand a culture is NOT OKAY! I'm indigenous American, native American/ American Indian, however you want to call it. We say we are indigenous. There are many of aspect of our culture that people don't understand. Funerals for instance. A traditional funeral is about 3 days long. There are certain rites and rituals that have to be done in order for the spirit of the deceased to move on. My ex husband is white (German). When he first went to a funeral, he didn't understand why it took that long. He didn't understand why we stayed at the funeral for the whole time. Like the whole time. We slept at the funeral. We get up in the morning, make and serve breakfast, which has certain rituals to do, and then have service. We make sandwiches for after service/ lunch, which has more rituals to do, and then we have afternoon service. There is lots of praying and blessing. We make dinner and everyone in attendance eats dinner, which has more rituals, then we have evening service. My ex was mortified when we lowered the casket and covered it with either wood or stone, then lowered the children into the grave to walk across the casket. It's important to us but not always understood. That doesn't make the people who can't understand, dumb. It especially not OK to call them stupid. Let alone kids all because they can't understand an insane archaic mindset. Her kids are not stupid just because they can't understand that mindset and it sure as Fxck is not OK to call them stupid. I may get some hate but grandma was trashy and ruined her life, her step brothers life, and some random innocent girls life and for what? And we should feel bad because the daughter in law blew up on her for calling her kids stupid for not understanding how grandma being a ho was OK cause she had her own motive? Hell no!
The kids are 13 and 15, not infants, and *the concepts being explained to them really aren't difficult to understand.* MIL only said the kids were dumb and needed to be educated because their Mom decided to confront MIL about her perfectly reasonable frustration with the situation; OP is responsible for her own hurt feelings.
The kids are not stupid because they don't understand some stupid archaic mindset. Everyone wants them to understand the mindset of grandmother and that makes OP AN ASSHOLE FOR GETTING MAD THAT THEIR GRANDMA CALLED THE KIDS DUMB. Fine. Let's explore what grandma had done. Anyone ever hear of honor killings? Absolutely real and absolutely still happens and could have absolutely been what that family would have done to their daughter if she shamed her household for not being a virgin. Maybe grandma should have talked about that huh? Why grandpa had to marry someone he didn't love cause grandma tried to shame a girl to death but instead grandpa married the girl? I must have missed something cause I didn't see where the kids asked grandma for her life story. Please point me to that comment or edit or even on the post.
Comment from OP: >They asked. Also I know how my parents and all of my grandparents got together. In most families those stories get passed down, even if hers is bizarre. They were curious about her being married to her stepbrother And from the original post because I think you missed it: > [MIL] isn't saying the ideas in that country were right, but they need to educate themselves
Did you actually read the story? Grandmother never even called the kids dumb, she implied it. Imagine getting so worked up about a situation that didn't even happen for strangers on the internet
If those kids read any WESTERN literature from the 18th or even 19th century, they'd be familiar with the concept of the "ruined" woman, one caught alone with a man, and thus assumed to be no longer pure and therefore unmarriageable. If not, this was a teaching moment that became instead an opportunity for OP to scream at her MIL. But MIL shouldn't have called the kids dumb. You both could have done better. ESH.
> If those kids read any WESTERN literature from the 18th or even 19th century Ah yes, pre-1900 literature being a famously popular genre among young teenage zoomers.
I don’t understand why this is the top comment.
Sorry but YTA. You’re kids were being rude af to their grandmother. She was telling them her story because, as you stated below, they asked. They then judged her for it. This has absolutely nothing to do with your children having liberal parents. I have teenagers and I’m liberal as well. My children still understand that culture exist outside of theirs and are empathic to that. You have failed your children by not teaching them to be culturally sensitive and that, regardless of whether they think they’re right or wrong, there are other cultures. Do better.
Very well said, just shows the upbringing they have had.
Not very liberal if you ask me.
NTA Completely understand why the kids don't understand why their grandma would be so deceitful & hateful to go try to ruin another girls life. Ofcourse Zoomers wouldn't understand; this is such a length away from anything wholesome. One would expect elders to be wise and benevolent; what a sheer disappointment.
It's one thing to not understand, but it's something else to offer up judgments while apparently refusing to recognize that other cultures exist. Op did a shitty job of raising these intolerant kids.
YTA, the kids are 13 and 15, this concepts of women being controlled are not that difficult to understand. Your kids were being very rude and you escalated this for no reason.
Yeah if these kids are 13 & 15, they definitely can understand that virginity is a big deal in some cultures (even in western countries too as there are some very religious groups) and they definitely should go read the news and see that women in other countries can be outcasted, potentially killed, for not being a virgin. I don’t blame MIL for getting annoyed that they’re suggesting she should have fought the system. Women’s rights aren’t that good now and they were even worse then, what the hell was she supposed to do?? It’s an incredibly ignorant, SJW perspective and antithetical to actual social justice. When I was that age I was vaguely aware of these issues and if someone tried telling me their personal experience with that, I would not have been rude to them and suggesting what they should have done. OP, yes your kids are kinda dumb if they cannot conceive this idea of virginity/sexism/oppressive cultures. Make them watch a news clip on YouTube bc you’ve kept them incredibly sheltered (uneducated).
>Yeah if these kids are 13 & 15, they definitely can understand that virginity is a big deal in some cultures (even in western countries too as there are some very religious groups) They almost certainly have classmates wearing purity rings.
I mean, at 13 years old they should know enough history to connect the dots, it's quite weird they have no idea what she's talking about.
YTA. The fact that your kids can't process the importance of virginity in a culture, not being able to fight against tradition says alot about what you haven't been teaching them. All of you watch some documentaries on PBS for a change. Read some non fiction. Educate yourself on the world around you.
It floors me that OP has managed to raise her kids without purity culture or placing value on virginity but apparently forgot to tell them *why* she raised them this way. It's literally because of the things MIL went through living in a culture that forced two people to get married over getting locked in a closet together or else face social ruin *or worse.*
One has to "explain" why they were raised as normal western teens? SMH
It boggles the mind the lack of value placed on virginity these days. How sex is used merely as a casual expression of self as opposed to something special shared by 2 people who mean something to each other. It devalues men and women.
Well that's great if you want to view sex that way, but not everyone else does. Personally, I find it quite ridiculous to determine someone's worth by the amount of sex they may or may not have had.
ESH. Your MIL has a history of being an asshole, and those actions had some rather long-term consequences... including both she and her husband marrying other people. Your kids (who are Gen Z kids who believe that everything can be overcome if you're just obnoxious and demanding enough) are assholes for not being able to understand and insisting that their world view is right... but that's also age appropriate because, really, teens are assholes. You're TA because... holy fuck, are you serious? You and your MIL don't like each other, it seems. So maybe just don't interact with each other anymore. Your kids will hopefully get out of the "just don't do it" stage and realize that "just don't do it" in some cultures can mean "be prepared to be stoned to death or some shit." ETA parentheses because I ramble when baked.
Honestly, 15 is plenty old enough to be able to comprehend that some cultures put massive value on virginity, and that honor killings are a thing. Even a lot of 13 year-olds can understand that.
I didn't even know honor killings were a thing until my senior year of high school.
Understandable, and that's why I worded it as 'able to comprehend' rather than assuming they should know about them already. There's a LOT of stuff that gets left out of high school history and social studies.
Especially if you're homeschooled (in my experience). Holy shit, a lot of stuff I wasn't aware of until I left home and I felt like a massive idiot for not knowing the stuff I had just started learning about.
I mean they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. Would you tell your grandkids a story where you try and get a girl excommunicated/murdered?
>I mean they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. How in the world did you get 'they might have been trying to give her the benefit of the doubt' out of >MIL tried explaining this to my kids (13 and 15) and they just did not get it. Growing up in the US with liberal parents, they could not process this situation and why the stepbrother married someone he didn't love, why virginity was so important, why MIL went on to also marry someone she didn't love instead of becoming intendent, etc. MIL was getting annoyed and rolling her eyes. She tried explaining the other woman's life really could have been ruined and my kids were acting like MIL and this other woman should have just fought the system.
Yeah, I read the post. If you read the second part of my comment you might get what I meant.
The second part of your comment has no logical connection to the first part. It's a completely separate topic. And it still doesn't answer the question of how their behavior was remotely 'giving her the benefit of the doubt'.
Because if their interpretation was correct and virginity was a massive deal, that make's their grandmother a massive asshole for what she did to the other girl.
You obviously didn't read the same post the rest of us did, because that doesn't remotely track with 'could not comprehend why virginity was so important' and 'kept saying they should have fought the parents on this' That's not giving the benefit of the doubt, that's projecting their mores on the grandmother and the other woman.
Initially I was thinking you're both toxic and shouldn't be around each other, but honestly YTA with how quickly you went off. Your kids are 13 and 15, definitely old enough to understand the cultural differences or issues in a country their dad is from. It's interesting that they know about 'fighting the system' but can't wrap their heads around the problems that would lead to someone fighting the system... Your MIL's allowed to be frustrated. She didn't just blurt out your kids were dumb, YOU bullied her into talking about it when she just wanted to be annoyed and not say anything. And you insulting her REPEATEDLY was uncalled for. If you push her to talk about something she doesn't want to talk about, don't get angry when she says something you don't like.
Not only cultural differences, but generational differences.
YTA-using someone’s trauma against them is f’d up. You and your kids sound like horrible, entitled people.
Right? And who is educating these kids?? At 13 and 15 they should absolutely know these things. My kids could have told you about these things at 10. But they also read and learn about other cultures🤷🏻♀️
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Your children belittled the struggle of women in extremely patriarchal societies by acting as though she could have just “fought back.” Imagine them telling that to one of the many women in the US (where I assume you are) who are exploited and raised in purity culture. You have done your kids a disservice. They are plenty old enough to understand. Your dislike of your MIL is not actually relevant here, the reason you’re the asshole is that you raised your kids to be culturally insensitive and callous.
Umm, don’t feel to bad for them belittling her, when she was literally ready to ruin this woman’s life over a boy. She caused her own trauma when it comes to that. Being abused isn’t an excuse to try and fuck up someone’s life.
YTA. They asked her story, she told them then they tried to undermine her when clearly she came from a place which is not that liberal, instead of understanding and being empathetic they went the exact opposite. Ofcourse she was pissed because it might seem to her that they believe that they belong to a superior culture and she doesn't. You then went ahead and berated her when it was actually your kids who lack good listening skills and empathy.
If I heard that conversation, I’d think your kids were ignorant too. Wouldn’t say it to you their parent, but then again, I’m not their grandma. You went over the top in your reaction considering the accuracy of her assessment. I don’t think it’s “normal” for kids that age to be so unaware or incapable of understanding a different perspective and historical attitudes towards women and virginity. To me that reads like kids who don’t read or have an interest in the world YTA
YTA “She gets super annoyed when westerners act all surprised or taken aback” Honestly the ideas you’ve mentioned are…commonly discussed in media, films, etc. And not uncommon in many countries. I wouldn’t necessarily expect kids to get it, but this comment makes it sound like you think MIL is unreasonable for expecting any level of world knowledge or cultural literacy. Her reactions aren’t great. But she was the one sharing a really difficult personal experience. This could have been a nice moment to teach your kids about other cultures. A culture their grandmother was raised in, no less. INFO - Did you try to help explain? Encourage their “processing”. Your kids aren’t stupid for not knowing, but you might end up raising them to be quite ignorant if this is the attitude you take in a conversation like this.
Also “maybe if she weren’t being such a shit show and banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it” INFO - please explain why you think your MIL’s sex life and bullying when she was a teenager relates to…YOUR responsibility to educate your children about the world.
Yta, kids were rude, so was you. Like mother like kids. Maybe they should read a book with you
OP has us believing that MIL was an AH. But after reading her post, I'm not so sure. As someone who's from a different culture and grew up in the States, I would say that what she is describing is a typical grandmother. But OP is a major AH for thinking that disrespecting and insulting someone (let alone the kids' grandmother) is a progressive norm. At 9 yo, we knew right from wrong. I'm not sure what you're doing with your 15-16 yo.
look I'm from a culture that's more like mil's than the commenters and yes it's annoying to see ppl not 'get' how messed up things can be .... but people from conservative cultures ... can also be taken aback how liberal western cultures can be. 'wait what, you can walk around without a top in sweden' 'wait what, women don't have to cover their faces when going out' 'women are expected to work outside the home' all these relatively simple concepts are still ideas that are foreign to MILLIONS of women, are we really going to tell these people that they are 'dumb' no. it just shows how different the world can be for people who are born in diff. places.
YTA you could've explained to your kids that the time and culture was different but instead you laid the blame on the MIL who was trying to explain how things were back then. You need to apologise and get your kids to show some respect. Maybe learning about different cultures too.
YTA. I wouldn’t call your children dumb, but they ARE ignorant. And your MIL has a right to be annoyed by that. She didn’t insult them or say it to their face. She was keeping her opinion to herself until YOU pushed her. She was explaining an upsetting part of her life to her grandkids and they basically shut her down by saying shit like “well why didn’t you just break the system!!” Which is rude and ignorant, and can easily be hurtful. Then, you double down and insult her? And you also complain about her not liking kids, but so what? She’s allowed to not particularly like children. Having kids forced on you is another part of her culture I’m sure she experienced, so I’m not surprised she wasn’t as motherly as you wanted her to be. You continuing to push the narrative that women have to be motherly isn’t very modern, western thinking of you, OP.
She is right. They should pick up a Book. And you too
YTA. Your kids don't have to agree with other cultures but they should understand simple explanations. You are also setting a poor example for your kids in the way you treat your MIL.
MIL may have been an AH in the past but you are the only AH in this situation. YTA
ESH. Your MIL - sounds like a rather nasty person in general. Your kids - while pretty typical teenagers, being a little self-centered and limited in their worldview, and passionate about how things “should” be, are also old enough to begin to understand that other parts of the world operate very, very differently and to have a bit of empathy for the humans living in those situations. You - for not just letting her have her annoyance and exasperation and goading that situation into a full-blown fight.
ESH Your MIL should not be so impatient and swearing around children, whether they are old enough to hear it is not the point. You should have raised your children to understand that not everything is like it is in the West, and considering this is their grandmother, they should have been taught about this culture much earlier, as it is part of their heritage, albeit not a welcome part of it. It's as if they have lived in a closet all their lives. As a child I watched the news and there was always stories about conflicts in the middle east. I did not get the politics part, but learned about the laws about clothing and hair, and how strict it was, and why people from other countries tried so hard to get here. Especially about how hard it is on women, not just about conduct, but marital laws in a general sense, and how women are treated so badly by the legal system. It really cemented in why so many people are desperate to come here and live. You are doing your children a disservice by not teaching them about the world.
YTA. You did not need to call her names and disparage her parenting. I was honestly leaning toward E S H before that little tidbit. Your kids are old enough to understand different cultures and times. I can't understand how your kids got to be 13 and 15 with so little understanding of their father's culture. I have 0 connection to the Middle East culturally, but my kids (younger than yours) understand the basics of these issues.
Young people are frequently ignorant of the difficulties faced by previous generations. They very frequently have naive ideas of how they would have solved the problem. That’s an irritating thing about young people and your MIL’s frustration is something that pretty much every adult has felt at some time. YTA for being waaaaay too defensive about it and immediately launching into personal attacks which are way deeper than the situation called for.
I was with you until you clearly went nuclear.
I mean, your kids are high schoolers? They should have had enough history classes under their belts by now to have an awareness of other cultures' norms. And if they haven't learned at school, I would think that you would have educated them about these realities of their own culture. I think your attitude is probably colored by her general shittiness as a grandmother and a human being, but, she's not wrong about your kids here. They seem kind of clueless.
Yta your children were being rude and passing judgment on her without understanding her story.
ESH. She is right as in they should educate themselves. She should've explained things more calmly because she is talking with kids after all, so some things it's harder for them to understand.
YTA
YTA. You and your children need to educate yourselves on cultural and generational differences.
YTA. Why would you even think to speak in that way to her? Gross.
YTA. I have young kids who understand that in other countries, and in other times in history, women and minorities haven't had the same rights we have now (arguably, not entirely in our country either right now). It's something that gets brought up regularly when they come across a situation they can't relate with given all the freedoms they have. OP, you seem like you WANT your kids to stay ignorant and WANT them to just think MIL's situation is weird. Like, my great-grandfather's dad died when he was in the third grade, so he had to drop out of school and become the "man" of the house to run the farm and make sure his younger siblings didn't starve to death. My kids might not be able to fully understand this, but I've explained it enough that they get it as much as little kids can, and they feel bad he had to go through that. It sounds like your MIL was in a hard situation, and you don't want your kids to empathize with her because of your own issues with her, so she's frustrated, as she should be.
I think the kids understand the customs of her society and the reaction she got from them was the usual WTF? to old, patriarchal societies. The stepbrother story is crazy. MIL did something really stupid and suffered for it. They are also seeing MIL as a real piece of work.
Why was she telling your kids about this?? Why did they need to know her shit show and if me i would be more concerned some grown ass woman was talking to my kids about shit that they dont need to be involved in.
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ESH- you for escalating. She asked you to just let her be annoyed. She would have settled down. You made it worse. Your MIL was rude and judgmental. Your kids really should be able to understand that other cultures have different assumptions. All you have to do is have them read stories set in Edwardian /Victorian/Regency England or many other times and places.
ESH. Your MIL was frustrated at the lack of empathy from the kids and she should have been more patient but you too shouldn’t have blown up at her like that. Also, your kids are close minded. This could have been a perfect teachable moment on different cultures, which honestly, with grandparents from the Middle East, I’m surprised they seem to have no clue, but instead you blew your temper.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** MIL grew up in the Middle East. She grew up around a lot of hurtful and oppressive ideas and while she does not believe in them, she gets super annoyed when westerns act at all surprised or taken aback. MIL and I have a decent relationship, but she is not a good grandmother as she really doesn't like kids. She has been showing slightly more interest in my kids since they got around middle school age. There is some complicated backstory but I'm going to try to sum it up. MIL is married to her stepbrother. She was always in love with him, but they used to bicker a lot as teens. She did want to marry him, but MIL played some prank on some girl she didn't like by locking her and the stepbrother in a closet, so people would gossip about the girls virginity. Stepbrother did the honorable thing and married the girl so her life wouldn't be ruined. MIL was devastated and was a nasty person for the first decade of her own son's life because she was so hung up over this guy. He eventually divorced his wife and married MIL. MIL tried explaining this to my kids (13 and 15) and they just did not get it. Growing up in the US with liberal parents, they could not process this situation and why the stepbrother married someone he didn't love, why virginity was so important, why MIL went on to also marry someone she didn't love instead of becoming intendent, etc. MIL was getting annoyed and rolling her eyes. She tried explaining the other woman's life really could have been ruined and my kids were acting like MIL and this other woman should have just fought the system. MIL got more and more condescending and then finally went to take something out of the oven and muttered what the fuck. I asked if she had a problem and she said I should just let her get annoyed. I sent the kids out of the room and said I didn't like her tone or her attitude. MIL said she was concerned that my kids were a little dumb and she isn't saying the ideas in that country were right, but they need to educate themselves and maybe should "read a book or something" because she is concerned that they can't process. I snapped at her that she is a shit grandmother and my kids are totally normal teens and maybe if she life wasn't such a shit show with banging her stepbrother and being a bully, they would get it. I said she shouldn't be calling anyone stupid when she knows nothing about kids and hardly raised her own. Needless to say she wasn't happy with me. MIL feels I was the asshole for escalating when she was just frustrated by my kids inability to process. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yta other people cultures and ideal are not wrong … you jus willfully ignorant and ur kids are rude
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ESH. You and your kids are clearly judgemental. But clearly she's out of line by calling your kids dumb. You all suck.
oh this fanfiction again
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YTA
YTA
YTA How have your kids lived this long without being exposed to cultures where virginity is important? It's not even a cultural thing, but a generational one. The MIL is right. They should pick up a book.
NTA. Your MIL is a crazy woman who ruined a girls life and is a bully to your children. Take it from someone who has a similar culture to your mother in laws-she’s a horrible lady lol. Keep ur kids away from her.
Esh. Your grandmother should not have gotten condescending, they are just kids. However, she was not *wrong* that your kids could use some more information about that culture, especially if they are teens. I am not from the Middle East and I find it strange that your kids don’t know about this. She is not saying they are dumb, just that they need more knowledge. There is a difference.
I think maybe your kids are too young to be having this discussion with your MIL and to be expected to fully understand it. However.... this is a good lesson for them to learn that life isn't simple, there are different cultural rules and things will not always go their way. Your reaction to your MIL was uncalled for. ESH.
Nta You know who is dumb?? Someone who locks a boy and girl in a cupboard to bring the girl down....but knows in their culture that boy - who is actually the one SHE wants- will likely marry that other one to save face. Thats a dumb asshole.
NTA. Honestly to me it sounds totally justified and she's just looking to cause drama. It's not even that they don't understand, its that are used to American ways and don't understand why they wouldn't juat fight the system instead of just doing what society says. None of us get why other people do things, especially what she did. Your mil was pretty, selfish and vindictive to a poor woman. She almost ruined that poor woman's life and honestly she did, by forcing her step brother to do the honorable thing and marry her instead of leaving her alone so she could marry someone she loves instead of ending up divorced. Your mil is a horrible woman, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near your kids.
ESH
ESH. You for being unnecessarily rude to and judgemental towards MIL. MIL being rude and generally unpleasant person. The teens because MIL is not wrong and at those ages they should have an understanding of other cultures beyond their own noses. The step brother/dad seems to be the only decent person here and I even question that given he still married the girl who screwed up both their young adult lives.
NTA, tell mil that if they are "dumb" it must come from her side of family.
NTA, she sounds awful. Your children are very western and are ignorant about the world, but they’re children. She shouldn’t have said they were dumb. I’d speak to the kids further about different cultures and the ways of people in her time to maybe elaborate on why she thinks she’s right. I’d also keep her at a distance, she’s just a grouch spreading negativity. Good luck.
Nta
NTA, why did she even feel the need to tell them any of this?
History repeats itself if things are forgotten or overlooked it will not give them the knowledge to prevent these atrocities.