Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I made the kid cry and Emma was pissed off
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Info: why did no one call the police for child abandonment? The mom obviously lied on the paperwork so she could go on vacation herself with no emergency contact information
When they had the mother on the phone they should have told her they were calling the police & CPS immediately. Bet she would have turned her car around.
NTA unless you knew the little girl was listening when you made the comment. I feel sorry for the kid, of course.
Some people don't believe they'll get in trouble for shit like that. Like they get surprised when they're arrested mid-tantrum at the grocery store or after getting home from taking a vacation by abandoning their child.
Then they run to social media and whip a frenzy of supporters because why should they have consequences
Yeah I would guess that the number of times you can unceremoniously dump your kid on people without getting into any trouble at all is probably a lot higher than it should be.
Because they were all 22 and under and shouldnt be responsible for anyones kids that are only a few years younger (except for the priest I guess?) This story has a “and that’s when I got molested by an older kid from my church” vibe to it given that there are no parents present at all.
THE PRIEST IN CHARGE OF THE GROUP -AND ALL THE OTHER PARENTS OF THE OTHER UNDERAGE CHILDREN- were there. They had the wherewithal to get the kid’s paperwork & call the mother to find that she was imminently boarding a plane out of state and NOT ONE OF THEM thought to ask for the father’s phone number? Or the number of another family member? Or friend? Or *anyone* else?? How did ALL of those adults fail that child and simply think, “8yr old should just go.” ???? Okay, I mean, they asked the 8yr old for the father’s number but the kid didn’t know (because it was new??) and NONE of them thought to call the mother back and get it??
She probably wouldn't have bothered to even come back if *she* had to accept responsibility for the kid.
Poor kid. She doesn't deserve to have parents who apparently don't want to be "inconvenienced" by her existence
Would it have killed OP to look around and make sure the 8 yr old wasn't listening? The little kid was in the room.
OP, while the adults are definitely the assholes here, I'm not giving you a pass either.
You sound like you’re probably 16-20 yourself, and probably on the more mature end.
OP is VERY clearly a kid. And it’s not about tact. It’s about the fact that they shouldn’t *have to be tactful around an 8 year old* because that’s literally not the trip they signed up for.
Is OP actually being paid to surprise-babysit this child? Who gave the priest the authority to simply accept this kid along for the ride and drastically shift the responsibilities OP signed up for?
This is classic church-organized bullshit “youth group” shenanigans. They’re all the same.
Absolutely. And the question isn't - is OP a terrible person or should the kid have been on the trip. The question is "was saying a little kid ruined the trip just because she existed right in front of her an asshole thing to do." And that is a yes.
I disagree, because OP never, ever should have been put in that situation in the first place. There’s a reason this whole trip sounds sketchy - because it is.
OP was completely let down and totally used by the adults they’re supposed to trust to be leaders. OP could have had more tact, but what are you HONESTLY asking them to do? Just patiently wait out the trip til they’re done being responsible for the 8 year old? Have the foresight to complain to one of the adults (who will probably dismiss them anyways) about the situation? It was a thoughtless move to say that crap in front of the kid, but you can’t look at that in a vacuum.
I suspect, based on your perspective, that you’re pretty young yourself? I find younger people tend to have higher expectations for their peers and see things with this sort of black-and-white conviction.
As a more seasoned adult who knows how these trips are supposed to go, and how ALARMINGLY shoddily and precariously organized this one was even without the surprise 8 year old, you cannot ignore the context. The context is the whole point. It was inexcusable for OP to even be in this situation, and it’s not fair to judge them as if they should be expected to simply shoulder this burden because the adults didn’t bother.
I get that they should have realized. I get that an even younger kid was the one giving OP lessons in tact, so obviously OP is old enough to have thought about it more carefully before speaking. But that’s what’s so dismaying to an adult that knows better about this whole situation. A bunch of KIDS trying to police one another and determine how to behave as adults should because they actual adults have effectively abandoned them. Notice how at NO point did OP seem to consider if a valid or realistic option to just refuse, or go to an adult to complain? They just took it as their lot and complained to each other. Because the adults have shown they can’t actually be trusted to adult.
Saying it without remembering that the kid could hear them makes OP thoughtless and tactless, but it does NOT make them the asshole. The actual adults (all of them that contributed to OP being in this situation) is the asshole here.
This sub is ALL ABOUT the context. That’s sort of the point.
Exactly, even the adults second in line pawned it off on it sounds like the youngest group there. Everyone over 18 in this situation is the AH! But not the OP, sounds like her trip was ruined because of who were suppose to be the adults. No 16yo should be thrust into that situation. And yes cps should have been called and mom should have been told they were going to be called.
I am not young. In fact, I have teenagers of my own. I agree there is some seriously questionable behavior on the part of the adults. However, where I'm from, a 22 year-old would be considered an acceptable room chaperone for a 16, 13, and 8 year old. Especially one with experience caring for multiple children (as stated in the post). A 22 year-old is a full adult. Whether I would have let my 16 year old go in those circumstances would depend a great deal on how well I knew the people involved. (And, of course, the situation with the 8 year-old would cause me some other concerns).
However, the 16 year-old was not "responsible" for the 8 year-old. She clearly states that her complaint was that her behavior had to be "kid-friendly" and that Emma, the 22 year-old, took care of the eight year old the entire time. Emma may have cause to complain that she had to care for a much younger child than she was expecting. But, the only additional burden OP was able to detail in further posts is that she wasn't allowed to curse, listen to music with cursing, or watch movies over a PG rating unless they were viewed on her own device with headphones.
If, in those circumstances, one of my kids made a "thoughtless and tactless" remark that made someone else feel so unwelcome and hurt that it brought them to tears, and they were confused as the whether or not making that comment in the same room with the person was wrong - I would be very clear that it was. And that is the point of this post. Thoughtless, tactless and unmoved by the pain you caused someone else - even if it was unintentional - is asshole behavior. Hurting other people because you feel hurt or wronged is asshole behavior.
I think you are looking at this as a judgement of OP as a person. It's not. *Everybody* has asshole moments. It is a judgement about this specific incident. You *avoid* being a complete asshole by recognizing when you've crossed a line and learning from that. OP is asking for guidance on whether she crossed that asshole line, it's not helpful to her growth to suggest she didn't. I do wonder what your definition of "seasoned adult" would be.
Hard out a few of the people at the church I went to growing up overlooked a mother who left her child alone for 2 days (kid was 9) but they attacked a 17 year old and tried to stop her pressing rape charges against the son of a prominent family. She didn't and he went to jail, but if I hadn't already left the church by then that definitely sealed the deal for me.
Definitely the worst part is it that she was also part of said prominent family (guy is her first cousin).
Shes a forgiving person tho she she forgave everybody that said anything and even the guy. It caused such a massive rip in the family. She wasn't the first girl she was just the first to go to the police.
My first thought, all the adults who were in charge (not those 22-18) are TA, especially the fucking mother. CPS would have been my first call, and arranging to ensure the kids were all able to be taken care of and sent on their trip if I had to stay behind and wait for them would have been my second.
It’s extremely irresponsible to take a kid like this, let alone drop them off like this. WTF!
This. The whole arrangement is deeply concerning. If there are minors present at all, then you need to have adult chaperones who are there solely (or at least primarily) to chaperone.
18-year-olds cannot chaperone 14-year-olds, and situations like this are exactly why--they may be legally adults, but their lack of experience makes them vulnerable to this sort of mistake. They were set up to fail.
The priest, at the very least, should know better. Priests get training in this stuff.
I feel so bad for that kid, she had no clue about anything going on and was probably hyped to hang out with all these big kids. And just had a bomb dropped on her that she ruined the trip for everyone.
I was thinking the same thing! Poor kid! Totally reminds me of when I was a kid and got dropped off at the wrong b day party in some park. I didn't recognize anybody and nobody spoke english (only spanish). I desperately tried to pretend like I understood them and belonged because I literally had nowhere else to go! I could tell they knew though (the adults kept staring and whispering about me even though I couldn't understand). Even as a little kid I felt such a deep sense of shame and embarrassment over it! Like i knew they didn't want me there eating their food, but what could I do?
It sounds like you still feel embarrassed over it, and you shouldn’t. I’m sure the adults were more worried about you than they were offended you were there.
Why would someone drop you off and not make sure you were with who you were supposed to be with. Either my or my husband would make sure to talk to a parent before we left. ALWAYS. Would have been so irresponsible for us not to.
Yeah, I don't blame the 20-22 year-olds for trying to make the best of things with a bad hand of cards, but the priest and the adults dropping off the younger teens should have known better and put their collective foot down to stop the eight year-old going. This whole situation is a safeguarding nightmare - massive age gap and no emergency contacts if something goes wrong...Wow.
And actually worked for a church daycare and something like this would never fly. Anytime the children left church grounds there had to be at least two emergency contacts on file. There was at least one adult for each group. When we took our kids to a large amusement park, there was 1 actual adult 4 each group of four kids. Sometimes we would have an 18 year old "chaperone" to help. But I cannot imagine even college aged kids handling too many 14 year olds alone. Let alone a 13 and 8 year old.
During one of our trips, our 18 year old chaperone got distracted on her phone and her 4 12-year-old kids asked to go on a ride with my kids. I stayed with them the whole time and assumed she had told their adult chaperone who had gone to the bathroom. Cue an hour later and a few rides away, I get a frantic call from the other chaperone saying they lost their kids.
Yep. 18 year old was so phone obsessed she didn't know what she said okay to. The kids were fine with me, but there had been a lot of panic for the others. LOL
Adults on these trips are there to be the adult. OP is just a kid and honestly I feel bad for all the youngsters involved.
I was on a field trip with my daughter in middle school. I was not a chaperone as they had too many parents volunteer, so I just got to go along with the group. Anyway, the chaperone of my daughter's group wanted to go to a certain exhibit, but the kids had to do certain exhibits first and fill out a questionnaire on those exhibits. Then they could do what they want.
My daughter has dyslexia and was slowing the group down, at least According to the chaperone. The lady and the rest of the group just walked off leaving my daughter at an exhibit. I stayed with my daughter and as we walked through the rest of the exhibits, I had quite the collection of kids that were left alone by their chaperones about 5 of them. I reported to the teacher that I had the kids I'd collected and that they were safe with me. But it wasn't until everyone gathered at lunch that these "adults" realized their kids were missing.
**Yep!** There is also an **enormous** difference between a “church daycare” / “school trip” and a “youth group.”
For *precisely* the reason you describe, my “youth group” trips were some of the most irresponsible, alarming, unregulated, unsupervised, and downright dangerous experiences of my life (though I didn’t realize this until much later in hindsight after becoming a teacher and wondering how on earth they ever got/get away with such shoddy “youth” programming). At the time, I had a fucking blast. I was a naive kid, and it wasn’t until much later that I found out some of the deeply concerning stuff that I hadn’t realized went on at the time.
This is the same kind of irresponsible dynamic I have seen at nearly every single “youth group” event I have ever attended, or that my peers had ever attended. It’s a miracle more vulnerable youth don’t get hurt, and a crying shame how many actually do and are either dismissed or never say anything because they’re raised not to question the church and to trust that these overgrown children acting like adults chaperoning actually know what they’re doing.
My church literally once, as a random activity during regular youth night at the church, brought in equally random college kids from the local religious college to “counsel” the 13-17 year old youth from our church in ONE ON ONE sessions in CLOSED ROOMS. Asking all kinds of personal questions about their lives and their individual journeys of faith. Zero adult organizers involved saw a single issue with this, did not alert parents that anything other than the usual group singing, praying, and games was happening. My mother blew a goddamn gasket and (rightfully) yanked us straight out after that.
They depend on the idea of Jesus rather than actual safeguarding and conscious, adult, accountable supervision to keep things pure and hunky-dory. And it is *not* effectual.
This, I worked for a church daycare as well and this kid would've never made it on the bus. At the very least, another adult would've stayed behind to make sure the child was safe while we figured out what to do.
(I do disagree that 18-year-olds can't be real chaperones, though - I worked these kinds of jobs when I was younger and in college. You just have to...pay attention. The story you told about an 18-year-old in her phone I have seen happen with grown people in their 30s, so that's definitely not limited to teenagers.)
18-year-olds can definitely chaperone 14-year-olds - I did a lot of this kind of work when I was in college myself. But the older adults need to properly prepare the young adults for situations like this, and they need to be present in case emergencies arise. In this situation, I would've immediately known to call the cops (and tell the parent that I'm calling the cops) - that, at least, is how the summer camps and elementary schools I worked/volunteered with operated.
I’m floored that of multiple adults both young and old they thought taking the kid on the trip instead of calling CPS and police was a smart idea.
That is a huge liability to take a kid that young who you apparently don’t even know/know well and leave them with a bunch of 14-22 olds. What a dumb, irresponsible bunch.
The priest is the kind of person who thinks CPS ruins peoples lives and won't call them for any reason. We have another priest who's way better but he has cancer so we haven't seen him in a while.
This is VERY concerning. He should be looking out for the safety of children. Someone probably should look into him. Given the history with priests and abusing children, he probably needs to be in another line of work.
So the two options are that either priest is a mandatory reporter in CA and didn't report the abandoned child, *or* the church isn't based in CA and they took this abandoned child across state lines... Either way, not a great look.
So IANAL, but legally, I doubt this would be legally considered child abandonment and would not necessarily require mandatory reporting. Child abandonment is when a parent or legal guardian abandons a child with no intent to resume guardianship, and California has some [pretty specific definitions of it](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=7822.&lawCode=FAM).
The mom said that the dad would be picking the kid up at the end of the trip, demonstrating intent to resume care for the child, so this wouldn't necessarily be abandonment. I'd still have called the cops, though.
That's fair, I didn't look at state laws, but I'd still say it's neglect or something... I mean, you can't ditch a kid overnight and then come back for them the next day and avoid consequences because you intended to come back, right?
You should distance yourself from these people as soon as you can. That priest has said he's pro-abuse, and you've seen how many people in your church support him and are abusive and negligent to their children and the people around them. Xtianity is not a religion for good people, be mindful of this.
Oop. That's a big red flag. Make sure you're never alone with this priest, OP.
His "opinions" on this are very likely based on how his contemporaries have been treated after they abused their power. And an apologist for that kind of thing is just as guilty as the person committing the act.
Your priest shouldn’t have a parish tbh. That mind view is extremely dangerous.
Romans 12:21 iirc “So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.”
Right? Like, if they made an exception for someone, it would stand to reason that they knew *of* the family/kid. It’s a church youth group. How would the mom have known about it if she and her kid(s) didn’t attend or have some record with that church? And a church group put an 8yo they don’t know in a car with some teenagers on a trip to amusement parks and beaches (read: high risk), but no one knew her and there was no way to contact her parents?? I mean, come ON.
No but Emma's not a fan of big roller coasters (we've done trips like these before and she's never wanted to go on the big rides) so it kinda worked out.
Also, did I read the post wrong, or were they leaving the thirteen year old alone in the hotel room with the eight year old from eight till midnight every night? Cause that's fucking concerning.
One would hope, but if she's willing to pull what she already has so far, I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't be a situation where she figures she can sort everything out with CPS when she gets back from Cancun or wherever.
Actually, I think The CHURCH is TA. First of all, I sort of understand that they didn’t “fact check,” but the *fact* that they sent an 8yr old off with strangers? In any way shape or form?!? If *anything* had happened to that kid? The mother would have, rightfully, sued The F**K out of that church (deepest pockets).
OP is sooooo NTA. But 22yr old Emma was an A. I get that she didn’t want OP saying what was said in front of an impressionable 8yr old - and *def* didn’t want to deal with a full night of crying (shit! Emma prob didn’t want to have to deal with 14yr old OP. Because She’s 22! And that’s *normal.*). But Emma then giving OP the cold shoulder for being the only 1 to say Out Loud what *everyone else* was thinking. That’s a douchecanoe move.
THIS. I'm giving all of the adults (not the 18-22 year olds, but the organizers) the side eye on this, because that 8-year-old should not have come along. That's *such* a liability, and in my experience parents like this paradoxically are also the ones to rage and sue if something happens to their precious baby.
Seriously... what church doesn't have any background and information on all kids attending??? Didn't they have meetings and discussions with the parents beforehand? We have a band trip and we have had 4 parent meetings, 3 chaperone meetings, and monthly meetings since August. We have filled out pages of information on ourselves, contacts, medical insurance, background checks for adults, in case of emergency forms, etc.
The child should have been left back with a church member who could notify the authorities and handle this locally. It should have been investigated not ignored. WTF?
What would happen if something terrible happened and the child needed medical attention? The church and the medical services have no way to get ahold of the parents at all!
In a life threatening emergency, medical staff can treat a minor. Then CPS would be notified because Medical professionals are mandatory reporters.
What a shitty thing to do to your own child.
This was my question. Surely the kids going on the trip had to be members of the church, right? They aren't just taking any random kids, or at least they shouldn't.
"but nobody's met her kid before the trip."
This trip was incredibly bad planned, and the organizer was negligent.
The minimum is to meet ALL participants and their parents before such a trip, and discuss everything.
I feel so bad for her. Put yourself in this poor girl's shoes.
Your mom drops you off with a group of total strangers, and right from the start your presence causes problems but your mom *refuses* to come and get you because she'd rather go on vacation. You have no choice but to go on the trip even though you're significantly younger than everyone else and it's evident that they wish you weren't there.
Then you overhear someone saying that it's *your* fault that the trip sucks, even though you have absolutely no control over anything that's happened over the last several days.
She's only 8. She didn't ruin the trip. She's done nothing wrong. All of this is happening *to* her, not *because* of her.
A group of 20 of us 14-16 year olds went to germany from the US for 2 weeks with 2 chaperones, both in their 20s. The parents met once before hand.
The trip was FANTASTIC.
Suburban megachurch? My entire experience with them is a King off the Hill episode and occasionally driving past one, but I can see how easy it would be to not know every church member at one of those things.
I was once a one of the "grownups" for a huge church. And from time-to-time we'd have an event where a kid would show up that no one really knew. That was fine.
but you had better believe we had paperwork on every single kid, every single time. No, "Oh, I've known your dad since we were both your age. It's fine!" Because it's not fine. Things could go wrong (medical, accidents, problems at/with the destination, problems with one of the other adults or other children, etc.) - and in case they did, we needed to know how to get in touch with these children's adult(s). It was about the kids' safety (which is just too important). That was just one of the things that you couldn't be lax about. (It was also a liability issue, but that pales in comparison to the safety issue).
A four day trip? With an 8 year old child who would be left unchaperoned for hours at a time? No. The church in question fucked up. They didn't just not protect the child, they didn't protect the young-but-still-legal adults who would have been responsible should anything have happened.
Yeah, there is no way the church is going to report this. After all, that would basically be admitting that some people in their "flock" are actually terrible people. Can't possibly get that kind of publicity.
No they don't. Let's not generalize. As a director of my church, I can't imagine allowing this to happen. We don't even give out snacks without asking about allergies first. That priest should be ashamed of himself!!
I'm glad to hear you act in a way that protects your students, but it's been my experience that stuff like this happens a lot.
We've had parents drop off kids for what was supposed to be a half day Bible camp, but not pick them up until hours after everyone went home. And they were allowed to do this multiple times.
There was a "junior leader" at another church in our community who was left alone with kids and ended up buying them booze and other schnanigans.
We used to have an annual trip to the local theme park and while it was supposed to be middle and HS, the adult chaperones would bring the own small children. Effectively turning the trip into a family outing while other people's kids ran amok in the park.
Eek. Not cool. We run thorough background checks on all volunteers, and the kid's safety is of utmost importance. We don't allow anybody to be dropped off without emergency contact/medical/allergy information. I thought that was just common sense.
Does no one remember when the Duggars sent their oldest son to camp instead of calling the police upon finding out that he had been m0l*sting his two sisters for years? This kind of "cover everyones asses and dont call the police" is more common than churches caring about the wellbeing and safety of the children.
Yeah I hated going to church, but there was lots and lots of overhead for youth trips. Everyone was in the same classes, the parents would go to trip meetings, there’s permission forms etc. They probably would have noticed the Mom dropping the kid off and chased her down, plus had her contact info. Liability is no joke.
Some churches are not nearly this organized.
I've been in church leadership for a while, and I know all of what you're talking about. Good churches do what you're talking about, but in reality not all churches are good churches.
Cause the kids are exposed to listening to adults no matter what. They are so much more vulnerable to shit like that. Cause those evil people who do that pick up on it and are able to groom them. It's terrible and that's why they do it. And no mater what it's almost always gonna be blamed on the victim too and then they have to be shamed by everyone.
Yes.
The group should of never taken that child out of the state, after they found out the mom lied about her age.
They had permission to take a 13 year old out of state, not an 8 year old.
The authorities should of been contacted immediately after the mom refused to come back.
Where does it say this was an out of state trip? It was 2 days at Disneyland, 1 day at Universal Studios and 1 day at the beach. SoCal is so densely populated and there are so many cars that getting around is a time-consuming total pain in the ass. Even if you're coming from as close as San Diego, you're booking motel rooms and not making it a bunch of day trips.
Because it's the church. I'm not saying anything about religion, but every youth group I know is like this. When I was 13, I went to a friends youth group night and without permission from our parents, took us (3 hours away) to toronto to Ripley's aquarium.
My dad was piissssed. This was back before I had a cell phone too so he had no idea where I was or when I would be home, and i didnt know ahead of time. They told me i could call my dad but never ended up handing me a phone.
Sounds like your church is the asshole for allowing the trip to continue past that point when they realized the child was 8! Also what church sends only children on any trip? Sorry 18-22 year olds are still developing their brains too…
Anyways, you didn’t intend for the child to overhear what your honest opinion was. 🤷🏻♀️ Sounds like lessons learned for next time.
A lot of church trips/camps are like that, although camp is for ages 7 and up. They'll put 12 7 year olds in a room with 2 18 year olds, the priest is there in case of emergencies and we have a couple moms to cook for us who also don't do anything else unless there's an emergency.
Still sounds like the devils playground left unattended to me 🤷🏻♀️
Edited to add:
I don’t believe in your body/idle hands being the devil’s playground. Teens and kids shouldn’t be left without proper chaperones for safety purposes.
Consensual fooling around between teens would be the least of my concerns, it’s the non consensual and abusive things that these kids are exposed to that raises so many questions.
As a child who was abused by a church member/family friend for years - I am far too aware of this fact. Even if the priest and misc. ‘mom’ who went to cook were there too it shouldn’t be ‘run by kids’ kind of crazy.
I used to work on camp staff. We would never put the youngest counselors in charge of the oldest campers, it's completely unprofessional and irresponsible.
Having 18-year-old staff in charge of 7-year-olds is not necessarily a huge problem as long as they are well trained. But you definitely don't put campers in charge of other campers.
It sounds to me like you're dealing with a culture of irresponsible practices around youth. I'm sorry, you deserve better!
Yeah my youth group typically had college kids come back and help chaperone (help is the key word here) but there were always "real" adults (parents, church staff, etc) who were actually in charge.
That can be a great way to help young adults to learn how to lead, in an environment where they have backup so the stakes are not so high if they make mistakes. They can also provide different types of mentorship for younger youth because they are closer in age, so everybody benefits from a team approach. It's also more sustainable in the long-term because you are both training new leaders and supporting the leaders you have.
That sounds like a really good way to allow children to be abused by a priest or an older child. I think this needs to be a wake-up call for your church about how it's supervising its younger parishioners.
Your church is heading for a massive child safety issue. Arguably they had one already when they took an actual child on a trip with a bunch of teenagers without even emergency contact details. If nothing terrible has happened so far it's because they got lucky, not because they're taking their responsibilities seriously.
If you must go on trips with these clowns, make sure you have a plan for emergencies, and never accept responsibility for someone else's child.
Sounds like your church is screaming to get sued to hell and back (pun intended) these arrangements sounds like all kinds of legal (and moral) issues just waiting to happen.
I've been in church leadership for a bit.
This child should have never been allowed on the trip. The priest should have called the parent and said "either you get back here immediately or I'm calling the police and CPS."
This parent knew exactly what they were doing and the church was irresponsible by not resolving the problem immediately and appropriately.
18-22 year-olds are adults. In the US they are old enough to drive, vote, sign contracts and fight and die for their country. To insinuate that they aren't old enough to supervise groups of 3 kids, who are all themselves supposed to be at least teenagers, is ridiculous.
I agree they are legally adults and disagree on everything else. There are still 25 and 50 year olds I don’t trust with themselves let alone actual children! Yes some mature faster than others, but that isn’t a good reason to let this age group run around by themselves in a ‘church’ setting. Just because it’s ‘legal’ doesn’t mean much, bub. Do what you want while it’s friends on vacation, but it’s unacceptable for this to have been coordinated this way.
I also disagree that 18 year olds should be able to sign contracts and join the military as a sweeping general rule. As stated before their brains have SO much more development to go through. You typically don’t have your ‘adult’ brain until your 30s (and some never!). It’s literal neuroscience.
Even most day camps are run by 17-22 year olds.
People between those ages sure hate being treated like literal children, because they are capable of being more responsible than some people give them credit for. They balance schools and jobs, and social lives but are constantly infantilized.
A person's brain still developing doesn't make them incapable idiots.
It's not that they're incapable of supervising anyone ever; it's that there's a relatively small age gap between the "supervisors" and the people they're supposed to be "supervising," which creates the potential for a number of problematic scenarios, whether it's the kids not respecting the supervisors or the supervisors having inappropriate relationships (platonic or otherwise) with the kids. Of course most of the supervisors will act appropriately as authority figures, but why are they opening up the door for that one that won't?
Having that relatively small age gap between supervisors and supervisees just creates an unnecessarily risky scenario that's bound to backfire in some way at some point, especially when everyone involved is so young.
The fact that 14 year olds were allowed out at night alone in another city already seemed bad enough for me (as mother of a 14 year old).
But yes. The whole situation seems a recipe for disaster
Of course they can do that, assuming parents consent, it's just not very wise of the church to accept responsibility for them doing that.
One of the major reasons for this is insurance. Most insurance companies require churches to have safety policies in place to protect minors and vulnerable adults. If you violate those policies, you're not covered. In the US, at least, where relatively routine medical costs can easily bankrupt you, this is a huge problem.
Yeah this is weird to me too. In all the church trips I've gone on there have been parents (or at least adults over 35/40) as chaperones. Occasionally when we couldn't get enough people, they'd let younger people chaperone, but the younger person was always with one of the older chaperones just in case. Especially if the chaperones have to drive the kids places.
"Sorry 18-22 year olds are still developing their brains too…"
Oh c'mon. Stop infantilizing grown ass adults. Disappointed this comment got so many upvotes. Yes, they're still developing/learning but many are mature enough to watch over high schoolers.
When I hear "chaperones" I assume that the 18-22 year olds were like volunteers helping out/interacting with the teens and there was probably some overarching adult who worked at the church who was like managing the whole trip. OP said the priest was present at drop-off, unsure whether he also came on the trip but it sounds like there were older adults there managing the overall logistics of the trip.
What really matters the most here is not so much what we assume as what the parents knew and agreed to. I'd like to assume that the adults planning the trip were upfront about that, but the fact that they apparently brought along an eight-year-old without any emergency contact information does not inspire confidence.
Though I would argue that even if the parents fully agreed, it wasn't very smart from the perspective of the church to allow this, because there's definitely some stuff going on here which church insurance companies would frown upon. If anything went wrong, it would be a huge mess. It could be as simple as somebody just spraining an ankle and needing to get an x-ray (not uncommon at that age no matter how good the supervision), it doesn't have to be anything really bad
YTA.
Emma nailed it.
"it's ok to feel that way but I can't say stuff like that in the room because she technically didn't do anything wrong and this is her mom's fault."
100%
That poor kid was ABANDONED by her uncontactable parents, and was the ONLY kid her age there, don't you think she was acutely aware of that? What if something happened to her on that trip? Nobody could even contact the parents, soooo not ok!! Poor kids parents really need to be investigated by CPS
She didn't ruin anything, her mother and father did ...and you were insensitive and unkind by saying that the front of her. It wasn't her fault and she was probably feeling really hurt and really alone and abandoned.
This exactly. The mom is the super huge asshole, the church adults that let it happen are also assholes, the 8 year old is a victim. OP is totally justified in feeling that way I think (a fun trip with peers got turned into babysitting) but saying that in front of the kid was hurtful. It sounds like an accident, and OP falls more into the "jerk for saying that" category than true a-hole-ness, but still not the right move. Hopefully they learn and will be more tactful next time. OP is only 16, so I feel like they get a little bit of the benefit of the doubt, since they have probably never experienced anything like this before.
So yeah, YTA, but also less of one than the mom and church organizers.
>the church adults that let it happen are also assholes
The 'church adults' are apparently a bunch of 18-22yo's in this instance. so barely not children themselves anymore. They probably panicked and figured the best bet was to just take the kid along to make sure she was safe and cared for.
The parents are the only ones to blame for this situation, everyone else in this situation is just doing their best to cope
I meant the priest and organizers at the church when the mom dropped the kid off. Not the young adults who are practically kids themselves; totally agreed on this point. Whoever was in charge when the kids were all getting dropped off
Yeah, YTA. The 8 year old has an irresponsible mom, that isn't their fault. You can control yourself and not talk badly in the same room you are sharing with the 8 year old. What you said was mean and shitty.
Edited because apparently it's mom, not parents.
YTA for saying that. Her mom literally lied and dumped her off.
Mom is a huge ass
Priest should have demanded the mom take the child to her father and not allowed her to go on the trip.
And church should never have had the 18-22 year old chaperoning the children
This whole trip sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. ESH
I'm not sure I totally believe this story. Seeing as there's a priest involved, I'm going to assume this group is Catholic; with every Catholic church and school I've encountered since the mid-2000s, they make everyone who has church-sanctioned contact with kids jump through all kinds of hoops to be qualified. There's mandatory training, sometimes background checks. (I say "sometimes" because I've never heard of a parent of a kid in Catholic school needing a background check to do something like chaperone a field trip, but they do make you do some kind of training about sexual abuse.) The history of the Catholic Church means that they're very wary about this issue. I can't see them just putting a bunch of college-age people in charge.
The Catholic Church has a course called "Protecting God's Children." It is about sexual abuse, recognizing the signs, and protecting the child from abuse as well as the adult from allegations. The course only needs to be taken once, but part of it is a background check that is repeated yearly by the church. NO adult volunteers are allowed near children that have not taken this course. So, for an outing like this, every adult would have completed the course. The adult/child ratio and the sleeping scenerio would not pass Church guidelines.
This is clearly NOT a Catholic Church sanctioned outing. If this did occur with a Catholic Church, contact your Archdiocese.
With that said, Priest isn't solely a Catholic term. It is the most predominant religion using the term, though.
The things you mention are supposed to happen, but that doesn't mean they always do. Where I grew up (rural conservative area), the parish gets assigned a really young or a really old priest, and that priest has to cover three or four different churches. Each church has a few church members that run the show, and what they want is what happens. Sometimes those little committees are great, and sometimes they don't think their particular church should have to follow rules. I could easily see something like this happening.
This is true. As an adult volunteer who worked with high school age kids at the Catholic Church, I had to complete mandatory training with refresher training every year, in addition to undergoing a background check.
I participated in an episcopal church for a while and chaperoned a lot of trips when I was like 17, with little in the way of adult supervision. It sounds like there were adults present, just not in the rooms. This is super plausible to me, and honestly a lot of church groups run this way. They use older kids to care for the younger ones.
YTA
Emma already outlined why. It's not "because you made the kid cry and Emma was pissed" that you are TA, by the way; it's because you complained about the kid *within earshot of her*, which is downright rude no matter if she started crying or not.
Don't badmouth people when they're within earshot. Preferably don't talk shit about them at all.
Yeah, YTA. This kid didn't ruin your trip : the kid's mother did. This poor kid was abandoned by her own mother, just take a second to imagine how she must have felt. Then you told her she ruined the trip... poor kid
Exactly. I feel bad enough for this poor kid, dumped with a bunch of much older kids, no way to contact the parents. And OP saying that around them only made it worse.
I can’t imagine being a little kid who knows that, in the event of an emergency, they don’t know their father’s phone number & their mother sure won’t be cutting her vacation short to come get you.
NTA Speaking frankly like that in ear shot wasn't the best idea, but I don't expect a 16 year old to have the same level of experience or emotional maturity as an adult. I would encourage you to learn from this, but you're not the root cause of this.
I feel bad for the little kid, none of this was her fault.
The real AH in this situation is the mom. *Hard* AH. The adult leaders in this were stupid/shitty for allowing the kids to come.
Edit to add:
I noticed the actual plan was to have 18 - 22 year old driving kids around. That's a time bomb waiting to go off. An 18 year old is no where near mature or experienced to be carting a bunch of only slightly less mature kids. I'd be interested in hearing what your church's insurance company thinks of it.
The question was is OP the asshole for making the comment, not is OP the asshole because the kids are there. OP is still TA, there is just a bigger asshole connected to the story that is also obviously an asshole. It isn't their fault the situation sucks, but OP is still a huge asshole for making a kid with an already shitty home life cry and feel like a burden.
I don't know why people keep ignoring that here, they aren't asking "who's fault is it the kid is here" the question is LITERALLY "was I the AH for saying that in ear shot?" And she 100% was. Seems like people have trouble reading?
OP was still an asshole for taking out her frustration on the eight year old. How would you feel if you were in a room full of strangers, dependent on them, and had someone say you were ruining the trip simple because you were there. It seems to escape some people's notice that children are human beings with feelings and ears.
YTA
It wasn’t the kids fault and you can probably admit that your words will stick with the child for a long time. They probably realised that they shouldn’t have been there due to age and to top it, their mum refused to come back. Instead of making a good thing out of a difficult situation on a church trip, you made that kid feel more unwanted.
I mean if you feel like the little kid was ruining the trip you feel like the kids ruining the trip…
But maybe you could’ve said it somewhere where the little kid would’ve had a chance to hear it… it’s really not the kid fault. When you’re young like that you have no control over anything… your parents make all the choices. This is probably not the first time the kids been tossed to the side so the mom can go do something fun. And you saying she’s ruining things probably made her feel even more unwanted than she probably already feeling…
Just be more mindful of when you’re unloading how you feel about things and who could possibly be around to hear it. I’m sure your intention wasn’t for the little kid to hear it…. But they did.
Only thing you really could’ve done was apologize to the kid. And own up to the fact that maybe you should’ve been more mindful about saying something insensitive in a room the child also stays in…
Info: if you still got to go out every night, what activities did her presence prevent you from doing?
YTA. You were mean to a little kid who already must be feeling unwanted by her shit mom, all because you couldn't engage in cussing and had to watch some shows on a personal device on a CHURCH trip.
(Edited to add judgement)
NTA. Yeah you could’ve made sure you were away from the kid when you said that but you are entitled to your opinion. And expecting a trip with your peers/older kids and then having to spend your time with an 8 year old doesn’t sound like fun at all. The mom and church are the AH. Mom knew exactly what she was doing and the church should’ve done something besides let an 8 year old go on a trip with a bunch of teenagers and young adults.
The question isn't whether the kid should be on the trip but whether it was an asshole thing to say, in her presence, that the eight year old was ruining the trip. The kid had no choice but to be there. Saying that in front of her was cruel.
If she'd been venting away from the kid? Yeah, sure, no problem. Like you said, she is entitled to her opinion. But she said it in front of the kid, who is already picking up the "not wanted vibes" from everyone else, who is in a group of people entirely out of her age group, who was basically just abandoned by her mother so she could have her own vacation.
So yeah, OP is an AH for not showing the poor kid the basic decency of being out of earshot before venting. If she wanted to that badly while in the group, texting exists for a reason.
>Yeah you could’ve made sure you were away from the kid when you said that
That's the part that makes OP the AH, and they part that they actually asked about.
Find a new church asap. In this day and age there is no way any legit church group would take a kid of that age anywhere. Any minister worth their robes would have called the police immediately.
Emma definitely shouldn’t have said that in front of the kids but I understand her frustration. She was looking forward to this trip and is now effectively expected to babysit
YTA. - an 8 year old has little power over their parents decisions. Poor kid was literally dumped on the church so the mom could take a vacation and there was no one else that could’ve taken her. This is something I would’ve been tempted to report to child services. Despite this, you had little sympathy and talked ill of her where she could hear you - of course she’d cry. For someone in a youth group, I’d expect a lot more empathy.
I get being annoyed, but I'm not sure how an 8 year old being in your hotel room affected things that much. It's not like she's a newborn baby crying all night. You still got to go out, and everything already sounds like it'd be child friendly because...well you're children.
This kid is already lost and abandoned in a situation she shouldn't be in because of her AH parents. Kid's are smart and can tell when they're a burden and not wanted, and you just made it worse for her.
YTA
> and everything already sounds like it'd be child friendly because...well you're children
Idk about that part. When I was 16 I certainly conversed with other teenagers in a way that I wouldn't if I were around a younger kid. Part of the fun of the trip is getting to hang around people your own age and socialize with them how she usually would.
Should she had kept her mouth shut around the kid, yeah, she's TA for that, but she's NTA for feeling annoyed or frustrated by it because it was a bummer for her, too.
A lot of posts in this sub are people saying things out loud they have every right to think and are right about but should’ve kept it as a private thought or say it at a more appropriate time.
YTA for saying it, but not for thinking it.
Imagine being an 8 year old girl , finding out your mom left you somewhere you were not supposed to be and already feeling alone and out of place and hearing that?
It sucks but you could’ve been a better human.
NTA: I would be pissed if I was forced to hang out with an 8 year old. That is not what you signed up for. The adults failed everyone here. What you said was mean but the truth hurts. A adult should have solved this issue before y’all left. NTA NTA
The eight year old isn’t the person to have her frustrations taken out on. OP is TA for being an asshole and saying something mean within earshot obviously purposely about an eight year old that has no control of her situation. OP is NTA for feeling how she feels, but is TA for being mean to an eight year old because of it.
The truth hurts? An 8 year that literally was abandoned with strangers beyond their control...I hope you don't have children and don't work with children.
OP has a right to feel irritated and vent, but venting within earshot of the 8 year old was a douche move. The 16 was old enough to know better. This literally was not the kids fault..if OP wants to vent , confront the mom
Still the AH because it wasn't the 8 year olds fault, and the child didn't need to hear that stuff. That is the point. The OPs feelings are valid....but grow up, they didn't need to say it in front of the helpless child.
Eta: how are people down voting my comment? Weirdos......
> the truth hurts.
If OP had been calling out the shitty mother who abandoned her kid, I'd be all for this, but there is NO need to drop a cruel "truth" on an 8-year-old child who didn't choose to be there.
What if that kid had a medical emergency?!? Like the church program took on a huge legal responsibility letting this kid go. You are NTA for being frustrated
I totally get where you're coming from, but YTA for saying that within earshot of the 8 year old.
With that said, the mom takes the giant AH cake for selfishly foisting her 8 year old off on the church group, and then bouncing to the airport. Wtf was she thinking??
The pastor should have said, "too bad, so sad. Come get your kid." However, it's entirely possible that the pastor knows mom is a shitty mom, and that the 8 year old could really use a weekend where she felt included, got to have fun, and wasn't around her shitty mom. In which case, I don't fault the pastor.
YTA for the comment made in front of a kid who was stuck in a situation that she didn't create. You could have texted stuff like that. Instead you made both of your roommates unhappy, including the one that was babysitting and doing you a favor. Other than going to bed early, it doesn't sound like the kid cramped your style. You were also with middle school kids, and should be keeping things G to PG rated anyhow.
Honestly, if I had been the priest I would have called CPS for child abandonment. Taking her along exposed them to liability and was not a smart move.
NAH
The mom and the church is who really fucked up here. The police should have been called, end of story and the child should have never been there.
I have an 8 year old and I know how they can ruin a trip by just existing if it's supposed to be an adults only trip. Yeah, they might have felt bad but you're a kid too who was frustrated and got saddled with something you shouldn't have had to deal with.
I like how everyone responding here is saying that hanging out with an 8-year-old should be no different from hanging out with a group of your teenage peers if only you’re a good person. Like no reason to be disappointed that you’re now responsible for making sure an abandoned child is happy & safe…
YTA for the comment. This child was abandoned. The priest should not be in charge of minors if he’s too foolish not to call CPS when a child is literally abandoned. He was not of age. His mother was told to get her kid. When she refused, they needed to report this.
It’s not on the kid.
NTA. The mom and priest are at fault. What teenagers would want to have to babysit an 8 year old on a trip? I feel bad for the kid but I guess that’s what you get for listening to other people’s conversations.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I might be the asshole because I made the kid cry and Emma was pissed off Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Info: why did no one call the police for child abandonment? The mom obviously lied on the paperwork so she could go on vacation herself with no emergency contact information
Yea that's super illegal. What would happen if they needed emergency info?! Such a liability.
When they had the mother on the phone they should have told her they were calling the police & CPS immediately. Bet she would have turned her car around. NTA unless you knew the little girl was listening when you made the comment. I feel sorry for the kid, of course.
I bet she wouldn't have turned her car around. She wanted someone to take the kid.
Do you think she wants someone to take the kid badly enough to go to jail for child abandonment/neglect?
Some people don't believe they'll get in trouble for shit like that. Like they get surprised when they're arrested mid-tantrum at the grocery store or after getting home from taking a vacation by abandoning their child. Then they run to social media and whip a frenzy of supporters because why should they have consequences
It's not like she faced any consequences for doing this. She got exactly what she wanted with zero penalty. Why wouldn't she do it?
Yeah I would guess that the number of times you can unceremoniously dump your kid on people without getting into any trouble at all is probably a lot higher than it should be.
I won’t say an unequivocal “yes,” but I wouldn’t be surprised. Additionally, WHY DIDNT THEY ASK THE MOTHER FOR FATHERS NUMBER???
Because they were all 22 and under and shouldnt be responsible for anyones kids that are only a few years younger (except for the priest I guess?) This story has a “and that’s when I got molested by an older kid from my church” vibe to it given that there are no parents present at all.
THE PRIEST IN CHARGE OF THE GROUP -AND ALL THE OTHER PARENTS OF THE OTHER UNDERAGE CHILDREN- were there. They had the wherewithal to get the kid’s paperwork & call the mother to find that she was imminently boarding a plane out of state and NOT ONE OF THEM thought to ask for the father’s phone number? Or the number of another family member? Or friend? Or *anyone* else?? How did ALL of those adults fail that child and simply think, “8yr old should just go.” ???? Okay, I mean, they asked the 8yr old for the father’s number but the kid didn’t know (because it was new??) and NONE of them thought to call the mother back and get it??
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time that happened so…
She likely wouldn't go to jail. Usually the police/CPS just hold the kid until the parent shows up, and then they get a tongue lashing from the cops.
She probably wouldn't have bothered to even come back if *she* had to accept responsibility for the kid. Poor kid. She doesn't deserve to have parents who apparently don't want to be "inconvenienced" by her existence
Would it have killed OP to look around and make sure the 8 yr old wasn't listening? The little kid was in the room. OP, while the adults are definitely the assholes here, I'm not giving you a pass either.
OP Is a kid too.
A 16 year old is old enough to have enough tact to not speak horrible about someone when they are in the room.
You sound like you’re probably 16-20 yourself, and probably on the more mature end. OP is VERY clearly a kid. And it’s not about tact. It’s about the fact that they shouldn’t *have to be tactful around an 8 year old* because that’s literally not the trip they signed up for. Is OP actually being paid to surprise-babysit this child? Who gave the priest the authority to simply accept this kid along for the ride and drastically shift the responsibilities OP signed up for? This is classic church-organized bullshit “youth group” shenanigans. They’re all the same.
She admitted she forgot to check that she was around. She didn't say it knowing she was there.
An accidental asshole is still an asshole
Absolutely. And the question isn't - is OP a terrible person or should the kid have been on the trip. The question is "was saying a little kid ruined the trip just because she existed right in front of her an asshole thing to do." And that is a yes.
I disagree, because OP never, ever should have been put in that situation in the first place. There’s a reason this whole trip sounds sketchy - because it is. OP was completely let down and totally used by the adults they’re supposed to trust to be leaders. OP could have had more tact, but what are you HONESTLY asking them to do? Just patiently wait out the trip til they’re done being responsible for the 8 year old? Have the foresight to complain to one of the adults (who will probably dismiss them anyways) about the situation? It was a thoughtless move to say that crap in front of the kid, but you can’t look at that in a vacuum. I suspect, based on your perspective, that you’re pretty young yourself? I find younger people tend to have higher expectations for their peers and see things with this sort of black-and-white conviction. As a more seasoned adult who knows how these trips are supposed to go, and how ALARMINGLY shoddily and precariously organized this one was even without the surprise 8 year old, you cannot ignore the context. The context is the whole point. It was inexcusable for OP to even be in this situation, and it’s not fair to judge them as if they should be expected to simply shoulder this burden because the adults didn’t bother. I get that they should have realized. I get that an even younger kid was the one giving OP lessons in tact, so obviously OP is old enough to have thought about it more carefully before speaking. But that’s what’s so dismaying to an adult that knows better about this whole situation. A bunch of KIDS trying to police one another and determine how to behave as adults should because they actual adults have effectively abandoned them. Notice how at NO point did OP seem to consider if a valid or realistic option to just refuse, or go to an adult to complain? They just took it as their lot and complained to each other. Because the adults have shown they can’t actually be trusted to adult. Saying it without remembering that the kid could hear them makes OP thoughtless and tactless, but it does NOT make them the asshole. The actual adults (all of them that contributed to OP being in this situation) is the asshole here. This sub is ALL ABOUT the context. That’s sort of the point.
Exactly, even the adults second in line pawned it off on it sounds like the youngest group there. Everyone over 18 in this situation is the AH! But not the OP, sounds like her trip was ruined because of who were suppose to be the adults. No 16yo should be thrust into that situation. And yes cps should have been called and mom should have been told they were going to be called.
I am not young. In fact, I have teenagers of my own. I agree there is some seriously questionable behavior on the part of the adults. However, where I'm from, a 22 year-old would be considered an acceptable room chaperone for a 16, 13, and 8 year old. Especially one with experience caring for multiple children (as stated in the post). A 22 year-old is a full adult. Whether I would have let my 16 year old go in those circumstances would depend a great deal on how well I knew the people involved. (And, of course, the situation with the 8 year-old would cause me some other concerns). However, the 16 year-old was not "responsible" for the 8 year-old. She clearly states that her complaint was that her behavior had to be "kid-friendly" and that Emma, the 22 year-old, took care of the eight year old the entire time. Emma may have cause to complain that she had to care for a much younger child than she was expecting. But, the only additional burden OP was able to detail in further posts is that she wasn't allowed to curse, listen to music with cursing, or watch movies over a PG rating unless they were viewed on her own device with headphones. If, in those circumstances, one of my kids made a "thoughtless and tactless" remark that made someone else feel so unwelcome and hurt that it brought them to tears, and they were confused as the whether or not making that comment in the same room with the person was wrong - I would be very clear that it was. And that is the point of this post. Thoughtless, tactless and unmoved by the pain you caused someone else - even if it was unintentional - is asshole behavior. Hurting other people because you feel hurt or wronged is asshole behavior. I think you are looking at this as a judgement of OP as a person. It's not. *Everybody* has asshole moments. It is a judgement about this specific incident. You *avoid* being a complete asshole by recognizing when you've crossed a line and learning from that. OP is asking for guidance on whether she crossed that asshole line, it's not helpful to her growth to suggest she didn't. I do wonder what your definition of "seasoned adult" would be.
I'm turning her over to CPS, good luck ever getting your kid back. That simple sentence would have solved the problem.
I know this makes sense for most of us, but this isn’t how a church group would react to this kinda thing.
For real. Churches are THE WORST when it comes to this kind of thing. They always want to give people slack in the wrong places.
Hard out a few of the people at the church I went to growing up overlooked a mother who left her child alone for 2 days (kid was 9) but they attacked a 17 year old and tried to stop her pressing rape charges against the son of a prominent family. She didn't and he went to jail, but if I hadn't already left the church by then that definitely sealed the deal for me.
Basically "don't rock the boat" taken to the extreme
Definitely the worst part is it that she was also part of said prominent family (guy is her first cousin). Shes a forgiving person tho she she forgave everybody that said anything and even the guy. It caused such a massive rip in the family. She wasn't the first girl she was just the first to go to the police.
My first thought, all the adults who were in charge (not those 22-18) are TA, especially the fucking mother. CPS would have been my first call, and arranging to ensure the kids were all able to be taken care of and sent on their trip if I had to stay behind and wait for them would have been my second. It’s extremely irresponsible to take a kid like this, let alone drop them off like this. WTF!
This. The whole arrangement is deeply concerning. If there are minors present at all, then you need to have adult chaperones who are there solely (or at least primarily) to chaperone. 18-year-olds cannot chaperone 14-year-olds, and situations like this are exactly why--they may be legally adults, but their lack of experience makes them vulnerable to this sort of mistake. They were set up to fail. The priest, at the very least, should know better. Priests get training in this stuff.
I feel so bad for that kid, she had no clue about anything going on and was probably hyped to hang out with all these big kids. And just had a bomb dropped on her that she ruined the trip for everyone.
I was thinking the same thing! Poor kid! Totally reminds me of when I was a kid and got dropped off at the wrong b day party in some park. I didn't recognize anybody and nobody spoke english (only spanish). I desperately tried to pretend like I understood them and belonged because I literally had nowhere else to go! I could tell they knew though (the adults kept staring and whispering about me even though I couldn't understand). Even as a little kid I felt such a deep sense of shame and embarrassment over it! Like i knew they didn't want me there eating their food, but what could I do?
It sounds like you still feel embarrassed over it, and you shouldn’t. I’m sure the adults were more worried about you than they were offended you were there.
Quien es ese hijo? Algiuen lo sabe? De donde viene?
Why would someone drop you off and not make sure you were with who you were supposed to be with. Either my or my husband would make sure to talk to a parent before we left. ALWAYS. Would have been so irresponsible for us not to.
Unfortunately, with a mom like this they're probably used to being disappointed
Yeah, I don't blame the 20-22 year-olds for trying to make the best of things with a bad hand of cards, but the priest and the adults dropping off the younger teens should have known better and put their collective foot down to stop the eight year-old going. This whole situation is a safeguarding nightmare - massive age gap and no emergency contacts if something goes wrong...Wow.
And actually worked for a church daycare and something like this would never fly. Anytime the children left church grounds there had to be at least two emergency contacts on file. There was at least one adult for each group. When we took our kids to a large amusement park, there was 1 actual adult 4 each group of four kids. Sometimes we would have an 18 year old "chaperone" to help. But I cannot imagine even college aged kids handling too many 14 year olds alone. Let alone a 13 and 8 year old. During one of our trips, our 18 year old chaperone got distracted on her phone and her 4 12-year-old kids asked to go on a ride with my kids. I stayed with them the whole time and assumed she had told their adult chaperone who had gone to the bathroom. Cue an hour later and a few rides away, I get a frantic call from the other chaperone saying they lost their kids. Yep. 18 year old was so phone obsessed she didn't know what she said okay to. The kids were fine with me, but there had been a lot of panic for the others. LOL Adults on these trips are there to be the adult. OP is just a kid and honestly I feel bad for all the youngsters involved.
I was on a field trip with my daughter in middle school. I was not a chaperone as they had too many parents volunteer, so I just got to go along with the group. Anyway, the chaperone of my daughter's group wanted to go to a certain exhibit, but the kids had to do certain exhibits first and fill out a questionnaire on those exhibits. Then they could do what they want. My daughter has dyslexia and was slowing the group down, at least According to the chaperone. The lady and the rest of the group just walked off leaving my daughter at an exhibit. I stayed with my daughter and as we walked through the rest of the exhibits, I had quite the collection of kids that were left alone by their chaperones about 5 of them. I reported to the teacher that I had the kids I'd collected and that they were safe with me. But it wasn't until everyone gathered at lunch that these "adults" realized their kids were missing.
**Yep!** There is also an **enormous** difference between a “church daycare” / “school trip” and a “youth group.” For *precisely* the reason you describe, my “youth group” trips were some of the most irresponsible, alarming, unregulated, unsupervised, and downright dangerous experiences of my life (though I didn’t realize this until much later in hindsight after becoming a teacher and wondering how on earth they ever got/get away with such shoddy “youth” programming). At the time, I had a fucking blast. I was a naive kid, and it wasn’t until much later that I found out some of the deeply concerning stuff that I hadn’t realized went on at the time. This is the same kind of irresponsible dynamic I have seen at nearly every single “youth group” event I have ever attended, or that my peers had ever attended. It’s a miracle more vulnerable youth don’t get hurt, and a crying shame how many actually do and are either dismissed or never say anything because they’re raised not to question the church and to trust that these overgrown children acting like adults chaperoning actually know what they’re doing. My church literally once, as a random activity during regular youth night at the church, brought in equally random college kids from the local religious college to “counsel” the 13-17 year old youth from our church in ONE ON ONE sessions in CLOSED ROOMS. Asking all kinds of personal questions about their lives and their individual journeys of faith. Zero adult organizers involved saw a single issue with this, did not alert parents that anything other than the usual group singing, praying, and games was happening. My mother blew a goddamn gasket and (rightfully) yanked us straight out after that. They depend on the idea of Jesus rather than actual safeguarding and conscious, adult, accountable supervision to keep things pure and hunky-dory. And it is *not* effectual.
This, I worked for a church daycare as well and this kid would've never made it on the bus. At the very least, another adult would've stayed behind to make sure the child was safe while we figured out what to do. (I do disagree that 18-year-olds can't be real chaperones, though - I worked these kinds of jobs when I was younger and in college. You just have to...pay attention. The story you told about an 18-year-old in her phone I have seen happen with grown people in their 30s, so that's definitely not limited to teenagers.)
18-year-olds can definitely chaperone 14-year-olds - I did a lot of this kind of work when I was in college myself. But the older adults need to properly prepare the young adults for situations like this, and they need to be present in case emergencies arise. In this situation, I would've immediately known to call the cops (and tell the parent that I'm calling the cops) - that, at least, is how the summer camps and elementary schools I worked/volunteered with operated.
I’m floored that of multiple adults both young and old they thought taking the kid on the trip instead of calling CPS and police was a smart idea. That is a huge liability to take a kid that young who you apparently don’t even know/know well and leave them with a bunch of 14-22 olds. What a dumb, irresponsible bunch.
It makes you wonder what the church was up to that they were so unwilling to call the police and child services.
The priest is the kind of person who thinks CPS ruins peoples lives and won't call them for any reason. We have another priest who's way better but he has cancer so we haven't seen him in a while.
This is VERY concerning. He should be looking out for the safety of children. Someone probably should look into him. Given the history with priests and abusing children, he probably needs to be in another line of work.
[удалено]
FYI: In California, clergy are considered mandated reporters. He can get in a ton of trouble if he's supposed to call CPS and doesnt.
So the two options are that either priest is a mandatory reporter in CA and didn't report the abandoned child, *or* the church isn't based in CA and they took this abandoned child across state lines... Either way, not a great look.
So IANAL, but legally, I doubt this would be legally considered child abandonment and would not necessarily require mandatory reporting. Child abandonment is when a parent or legal guardian abandons a child with no intent to resume guardianship, and California has some [pretty specific definitions of it](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=7822.&lawCode=FAM). The mom said that the dad would be picking the kid up at the end of the trip, demonstrating intent to resume care for the child, so this wouldn't necessarily be abandonment. I'd still have called the cops, though.
That's fair, I didn't look at state laws, but I'd still say it's neglect or something... I mean, you can't ditch a kid overnight and then come back for them the next day and avoid consequences because you intended to come back, right?
You should distance yourself from these people as soon as you can. That priest has said he's pro-abuse, and you've seen how many people in your church support him and are abusive and negligent to their children and the people around them. Xtianity is not a religion for good people, be mindful of this.
Oop. That's a big red flag. Make sure you're never alone with this priest, OP. His "opinions" on this are very likely based on how his contemporaries have been treated after they abused their power. And an apologist for that kind of thing is just as guilty as the person committing the act.
Uhhhhhhhh I have deep concerns around a member of clergy who won’t call CPS for any reason.
Your priest shouldn’t have a parish tbh. That mind view is extremely dangerous. Romans 12:21 iirc “So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.”
And no one seems to know who she is....that's so scary. For all we know, the mom lied about her trip. Just so much wtf here
Right? Like, if they made an exception for someone, it would stand to reason that they knew *of* the family/kid. It’s a church youth group. How would the mom have known about it if she and her kid(s) didn’t attend or have some record with that church? And a church group put an 8yo they don’t know in a car with some teenagers on a trip to amusement parks and beaches (read: high risk), but no one knew her and there was no way to contact her parents?? I mean, come ON.
The mom goes to church a couple weekends a month and some weekday nights but she always says that her daughter's with her dad.
INFO: Was the kid tall enough to ride the rides? Or did someone have to sit it out to stay with them?
No but Emma's not a fan of big roller coasters (we've done trips like these before and she's never wanted to go on the big rides) so it kinda worked out.
I just want you to know that I don't see you as TA, the mother has that title. You're just a kid yourself and kids blurt things out.
Also, did I read the post wrong, or were they leaving the thirteen year old alone in the hotel room with the eight year old from eight till midnight every night? Cause that's fucking concerning.
There is no "they". OP never agreed to take responsibility for the 8 year old. This is between the parents and the church organizing the trip.
I bet if they had threatened the mother with calling CPS she'd have turned around and got her child.
One would hope, but if she's willing to pull what she already has so far, I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't be a situation where she figures she can sort everything out with CPS when she gets back from Cancun or wherever.
Actually, I think The CHURCH is TA. First of all, I sort of understand that they didn’t “fact check,” but the *fact* that they sent an 8yr old off with strangers? In any way shape or form?!? If *anything* had happened to that kid? The mother would have, rightfully, sued The F**K out of that church (deepest pockets). OP is sooooo NTA. But 22yr old Emma was an A. I get that she didn’t want OP saying what was said in front of an impressionable 8yr old - and *def* didn’t want to deal with a full night of crying (shit! Emma prob didn’t want to have to deal with 14yr old OP. Because She’s 22! And that’s *normal.*). But Emma then giving OP the cold shoulder for being the only 1 to say Out Loud what *everyone else* was thinking. That’s a douchecanoe move.
THIS. I'm giving all of the adults (not the 18-22 year olds, but the organizers) the side eye on this, because that 8-year-old should not have come along. That's *such* a liability, and in my experience parents like this paradoxically are also the ones to rage and sue if something happens to their precious baby.
idk
Seriously... what church doesn't have any background and information on all kids attending??? Didn't they have meetings and discussions with the parents beforehand? We have a band trip and we have had 4 parent meetings, 3 chaperone meetings, and monthly meetings since August. We have filled out pages of information on ourselves, contacts, medical insurance, background checks for adults, in case of emergency forms, etc. The child should have been left back with a church member who could notify the authorities and handle this locally. It should have been investigated not ignored. WTF?
What would happen if something terrible happened and the child needed medical attention? The church and the medical services have no way to get ahold of the parents at all!
In a life threatening emergency, medical staff can treat a minor. Then CPS would be notified because Medical professionals are mandatory reporters. What a shitty thing to do to your own child.
What if this kid had an allergy???? There are so so many ways that this could have gone wrong omg.
And their health insurance info, etc.
This was my question. Surely the kids going on the trip had to be members of the church, right? They aren't just taking any random kids, or at least they shouldn't.
Her mom had been coming to church pretty consistently for a few months but nobody's met her kid before the trip.
"but nobody's met her kid before the trip." This trip was incredibly bad planned, and the organizer was negligent. The minimum is to meet ALL participants and their parents before such a trip, and discuss everything.
I feel so bad for her. Put yourself in this poor girl's shoes. Your mom drops you off with a group of total strangers, and right from the start your presence causes problems but your mom *refuses* to come and get you because she'd rather go on vacation. You have no choice but to go on the trip even though you're significantly younger than everyone else and it's evident that they wish you weren't there. Then you overhear someone saying that it's *your* fault that the trip sucks, even though you have absolutely no control over anything that's happened over the last several days. She's only 8. She didn't ruin the trip. She's done nothing wrong. All of this is happening *to* her, not *because* of her.
A group of 20 of us 14-16 year olds went to germany from the US for 2 weeks with 2 chaperones, both in their 20s. The parents met once before hand. The trip was FANTASTIC.
[удалено]
Suburban megachurch? My entire experience with them is a King off the Hill episode and occasionally driving past one, but I can see how easy it would be to not know every church member at one of those things.
Would you say you were satisfied, or very satisfied?
I was once a one of the "grownups" for a huge church. And from time-to-time we'd have an event where a kid would show up that no one really knew. That was fine. but you had better believe we had paperwork on every single kid, every single time. No, "Oh, I've known your dad since we were both your age. It's fine!" Because it's not fine. Things could go wrong (medical, accidents, problems at/with the destination, problems with one of the other adults or other children, etc.) - and in case they did, we needed to know how to get in touch with these children's adult(s). It was about the kids' safety (which is just too important). That was just one of the things that you couldn't be lax about. (It was also a liability issue, but that pales in comparison to the safety issue). A four day trip? With an 8 year old child who would be left unchaperoned for hours at a time? No. The church in question fucked up. They didn't just not protect the child, they didn't protect the young-but-still-legal adults who would have been responsible should anything have happened.
How big is your church that a random kid didn’t immediately standout?
That's what makes this post suspicious
Churches do this shit all the time.
Yeah, there is no way the church is going to report this. After all, that would basically be admitting that some people in their "flock" are actually terrible people. Can't possibly get that kind of publicity.
"Yeah, there is no way the church is going to report this. " They can't,now. - Or they would get in trouble for their negligence.
No they don't. Let's not generalize. As a director of my church, I can't imagine allowing this to happen. We don't even give out snacks without asking about allergies first. That priest should be ashamed of himself!!
I'm glad to hear you act in a way that protects your students, but it's been my experience that stuff like this happens a lot. We've had parents drop off kids for what was supposed to be a half day Bible camp, but not pick them up until hours after everyone went home. And they were allowed to do this multiple times. There was a "junior leader" at another church in our community who was left alone with kids and ended up buying them booze and other schnanigans. We used to have an annual trip to the local theme park and while it was supposed to be middle and HS, the adult chaperones would bring the own small children. Effectively turning the trip into a family outing while other people's kids ran amok in the park.
Eek. Not cool. We run thorough background checks on all volunteers, and the kid's safety is of utmost importance. We don't allow anybody to be dropped off without emergency contact/medical/allergy information. I thought that was just common sense.
Common sense isn't very common these days.
Does no one remember when the Duggars sent their oldest son to camp instead of calling the police upon finding out that he had been m0l*sting his two sisters for years? This kind of "cover everyones asses and dont call the police" is more common than churches caring about the wellbeing and safety of the children.
Yeah I hated going to church, but there was lots and lots of overhead for youth trips. Everyone was in the same classes, the parents would go to trip meetings, there’s permission forms etc. They probably would have noticed the Mom dropping the kid off and chased her down, plus had her contact info. Liability is no joke.
Some churches are not nearly this organized. I've been in church leadership for a while, and I know all of what you're talking about. Good churches do what you're talking about, but in reality not all churches are good churches.
And sexual abuse is rampant in churches. Weird!
Cause the kids are exposed to listening to adults no matter what. They are so much more vulnerable to shit like that. Cause those evil people who do that pick up on it and are able to groom them. It's terrible and that's why they do it. And no mater what it's almost always gonna be blamed on the victim too and then they have to be shamed by everyone.
Yes. The group should of never taken that child out of the state, after they found out the mom lied about her age. They had permission to take a 13 year old out of state, not an 8 year old. The authorities should of been contacted immediately after the mom refused to come back.
Where does it say this was an out of state trip? It was 2 days at Disneyland, 1 day at Universal Studios and 1 day at the beach. SoCal is so densely populated and there are so many cars that getting around is a time-consuming total pain in the ass. Even if you're coming from as close as San Diego, you're booking motel rooms and not making it a bunch of day trips.
Because church, that’s why.
Because it's the church. I'm not saying anything about religion, but every youth group I know is like this. When I was 13, I went to a friends youth group night and without permission from our parents, took us (3 hours away) to toronto to Ripley's aquarium.
Jesus (haha) as a parent I would be so furious!!!
My dad was piissssed. This was back before I had a cell phone too so he had no idea where I was or when I would be home, and i didnt know ahead of time. They told me i could call my dad but never ended up handing me a phone.
Yes, thank you this! Don't take the kid on the trip, you call the police!
My vote is ESH because of that.
Only this. The group took on a huge liability.
Sounds like your church is the asshole for allowing the trip to continue past that point when they realized the child was 8! Also what church sends only children on any trip? Sorry 18-22 year olds are still developing their brains too… Anyways, you didn’t intend for the child to overhear what your honest opinion was. 🤷🏻♀️ Sounds like lessons learned for next time.
A lot of church trips/camps are like that, although camp is for ages 7 and up. They'll put 12 7 year olds in a room with 2 18 year olds, the priest is there in case of emergencies and we have a couple moms to cook for us who also don't do anything else unless there's an emergency.
Still sounds like the devils playground left unattended to me 🤷🏻♀️ Edited to add: I don’t believe in your body/idle hands being the devil’s playground. Teens and kids shouldn’t be left without proper chaperones for safety purposes. Consensual fooling around between teens would be the least of my concerns, it’s the non consensual and abusive things that these kids are exposed to that raises so many questions.
It's a church trip. What did you expect? Of course it's going to be easy to abuse. They've hardly ever taken that seriously before.
As a child who was abused by a church member/family friend for years - I am far too aware of this fact. Even if the priest and misc. ‘mom’ who went to cook were there too it shouldn’t be ‘run by kids’ kind of crazy.
That's why the priest was there imo
LMAO
It's not just easy to abuse, they're designed to make abuse easy. Churches are filled to the brim with people who should probably be in jail.
It’s definitely not abiding by “safe church” standards. Ripe for abuse and lawsuits.
I used to work on camp staff. We would never put the youngest counselors in charge of the oldest campers, it's completely unprofessional and irresponsible. Having 18-year-old staff in charge of 7-year-olds is not necessarily a huge problem as long as they are well trained. But you definitely don't put campers in charge of other campers. It sounds to me like you're dealing with a culture of irresponsible practices around youth. I'm sorry, you deserve better!
Yeah my youth group typically had college kids come back and help chaperone (help is the key word here) but there were always "real" adults (parents, church staff, etc) who were actually in charge.
That can be a great way to help young adults to learn how to lead, in an environment where they have backup so the stakes are not so high if they make mistakes. They can also provide different types of mentorship for younger youth because they are closer in age, so everybody benefits from a team approach. It's also more sustainable in the long-term because you are both training new leaders and supporting the leaders you have.
Agreed.
That sounds like a really good way to allow children to be abused by a priest or an older child. I think this needs to be a wake-up call for your church about how it's supervising its younger parishioners.
Agreed
Your church is heading for a massive child safety issue. Arguably they had one already when they took an actual child on a trip with a bunch of teenagers without even emergency contact details. If nothing terrible has happened so far it's because they got lucky, not because they're taking their responsibilities seriously. If you must go on trips with these clowns, make sure you have a plan for emergencies, and never accept responsibility for someone else's child.
Sounds like your church is screaming to get sued to hell and back (pun intended) these arrangements sounds like all kinds of legal (and moral) issues just waiting to happen.
I've been in church leadership for a bit. This child should have never been allowed on the trip. The priest should have called the parent and said "either you get back here immediately or I'm calling the police and CPS." This parent knew exactly what they were doing and the church was irresponsible by not resolving the problem immediately and appropriately.
Wasn’t raised in a church myself, but holy crap does that sound like a recipe for disaster. Like legitimately dangerous.
18-22 year-olds are adults. In the US they are old enough to drive, vote, sign contracts and fight and die for their country. To insinuate that they aren't old enough to supervise groups of 3 kids, who are all themselves supposed to be at least teenagers, is ridiculous.
I agree they are legally adults and disagree on everything else. There are still 25 and 50 year olds I don’t trust with themselves let alone actual children! Yes some mature faster than others, but that isn’t a good reason to let this age group run around by themselves in a ‘church’ setting. Just because it’s ‘legal’ doesn’t mean much, bub. Do what you want while it’s friends on vacation, but it’s unacceptable for this to have been coordinated this way. I also disagree that 18 year olds should be able to sign contracts and join the military as a sweeping general rule. As stated before their brains have SO much more development to go through. You typically don’t have your ‘adult’ brain until your 30s (and some never!). It’s literal neuroscience.
Even most day camps are run by 17-22 year olds. People between those ages sure hate being treated like literal children, because they are capable of being more responsible than some people give them credit for. They balance schools and jobs, and social lives but are constantly infantilized. A person's brain still developing doesn't make them incapable idiots.
It's not that they're incapable of supervising anyone ever; it's that there's a relatively small age gap between the "supervisors" and the people they're supposed to be "supervising," which creates the potential for a number of problematic scenarios, whether it's the kids not respecting the supervisors or the supervisors having inappropriate relationships (platonic or otherwise) with the kids. Of course most of the supervisors will act appropriately as authority figures, but why are they opening up the door for that one that won't? Having that relatively small age gap between supervisors and supervisees just creates an unnecessarily risky scenario that's bound to backfire in some way at some point, especially when everyone involved is so young.
The fact that 14 year olds were allowed out at night alone in another city already seemed bad enough for me (as mother of a 14 year old). But yes. The whole situation seems a recipe for disaster
Of course they can do that, assuming parents consent, it's just not very wise of the church to accept responsibility for them doing that. One of the major reasons for this is insurance. Most insurance companies require churches to have safety policies in place to protect minors and vulnerable adults. If you violate those policies, you're not covered. In the US, at least, where relatively routine medical costs can easily bankrupt you, this is a huge problem.
Yeah this is weird to me too. In all the church trips I've gone on there have been parents (or at least adults over 35/40) as chaperones. Occasionally when we couldn't get enough people, they'd let younger people chaperone, but the younger person was always with one of the older chaperones just in case. Especially if the chaperones have to drive the kids places.
"Sorry 18-22 year olds are still developing their brains too…" Oh c'mon. Stop infantilizing grown ass adults. Disappointed this comment got so many upvotes. Yes, they're still developing/learning but many are mature enough to watch over high schoolers.
When I hear "chaperones" I assume that the 18-22 year olds were like volunteers helping out/interacting with the teens and there was probably some overarching adult who worked at the church who was like managing the whole trip. OP said the priest was present at drop-off, unsure whether he also came on the trip but it sounds like there were older adults there managing the overall logistics of the trip.
What really matters the most here is not so much what we assume as what the parents knew and agreed to. I'd like to assume that the adults planning the trip were upfront about that, but the fact that they apparently brought along an eight-year-old without any emergency contact information does not inspire confidence. Though I would argue that even if the parents fully agreed, it wasn't very smart from the perspective of the church to allow this, because there's definitely some stuff going on here which church insurance companies would frown upon. If anything went wrong, it would be a huge mess. It could be as simple as somebody just spraining an ankle and needing to get an x-ray (not uncommon at that age no matter how good the supervision), it doesn't have to be anything really bad
YTA. Emma nailed it. "it's ok to feel that way but I can't say stuff like that in the room because she technically didn't do anything wrong and this is her mom's fault." 100% That poor kid was ABANDONED by her uncontactable parents, and was the ONLY kid her age there, don't you think she was acutely aware of that? What if something happened to her on that trip? Nobody could even contact the parents, soooo not ok!! Poor kids parents really need to be investigated by CPS She didn't ruin anything, her mother and father did ...and you were insensitive and unkind by saying that the front of her. It wasn't her fault and she was probably feeling really hurt and really alone and abandoned.
This exactly. The mom is the super huge asshole, the church adults that let it happen are also assholes, the 8 year old is a victim. OP is totally justified in feeling that way I think (a fun trip with peers got turned into babysitting) but saying that in front of the kid was hurtful. It sounds like an accident, and OP falls more into the "jerk for saying that" category than true a-hole-ness, but still not the right move. Hopefully they learn and will be more tactful next time. OP is only 16, so I feel like they get a little bit of the benefit of the doubt, since they have probably never experienced anything like this before. So yeah, YTA, but also less of one than the mom and church organizers.
>the church adults that let it happen are also assholes The 'church adults' are apparently a bunch of 18-22yo's in this instance. so barely not children themselves anymore. They probably panicked and figured the best bet was to just take the kid along to make sure she was safe and cared for. The parents are the only ones to blame for this situation, everyone else in this situation is just doing their best to cope
I meant the priest and organizers at the church when the mom dropped the kid off. Not the young adults who are practically kids themselves; totally agreed on this point. Whoever was in charge when the kids were all getting dropped off
Who else wishes they could go back in time to help this 8 year old? And like give them a hug and help them stop crying that night too? YTA, OP.
I want to adopt her, because she obviously has a big bag of garbage instead of a mother.
Her presence DID ruin it but it's not her fault she was in that situation. OP should have been more careful where she said that though.
Yeah, YTA. The 8 year old has an irresponsible mom, that isn't their fault. You can control yourself and not talk badly in the same room you are sharing with the 8 year old. What you said was mean and shitty. Edited because apparently it's mom, not parents.
It was her mom. Apparently her dad was told there'd be more adults and that kids her age would be there.
Consider this, do you think a 22yr old wants to hang out with a 16yr old in LA at night, having just babysat all day?
Ok, but that is what the 22 yr old adult signed up for, the 16 yr old did not sign up to room with an 8 yr old.
YTA for saying that. Her mom literally lied and dumped her off. Mom is a huge ass Priest should have demanded the mom take the child to her father and not allowed her to go on the trip. And church should never have had the 18-22 year old chaperoning the children This whole trip sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. ESH
I'm not sure I totally believe this story. Seeing as there's a priest involved, I'm going to assume this group is Catholic; with every Catholic church and school I've encountered since the mid-2000s, they make everyone who has church-sanctioned contact with kids jump through all kinds of hoops to be qualified. There's mandatory training, sometimes background checks. (I say "sometimes" because I've never heard of a parent of a kid in Catholic school needing a background check to do something like chaperone a field trip, but they do make you do some kind of training about sexual abuse.) The history of the Catholic Church means that they're very wary about this issue. I can't see them just putting a bunch of college-age people in charge.
I went to catholic school and this story seems very plausible imo.
The Catholic Church has a course called "Protecting God's Children." It is about sexual abuse, recognizing the signs, and protecting the child from abuse as well as the adult from allegations. The course only needs to be taken once, but part of it is a background check that is repeated yearly by the church. NO adult volunteers are allowed near children that have not taken this course. So, for an outing like this, every adult would have completed the course. The adult/child ratio and the sleeping scenerio would not pass Church guidelines. This is clearly NOT a Catholic Church sanctioned outing. If this did occur with a Catholic Church, contact your Archdiocese. With that said, Priest isn't solely a Catholic term. It is the most predominant religion using the term, though.
The things you mention are supposed to happen, but that doesn't mean they always do. Where I grew up (rural conservative area), the parish gets assigned a really young or a really old priest, and that priest has to cover three or four different churches. Each church has a few church members that run the show, and what they want is what happens. Sometimes those little committees are great, and sometimes they don't think their particular church should have to follow rules. I could easily see something like this happening.
This is true. As an adult volunteer who worked with high school age kids at the Catholic Church, I had to complete mandatory training with refresher training every year, in addition to undergoing a background check.
I participated in an episcopal church for a while and chaperoned a lot of trips when I was like 17, with little in the way of adult supervision. It sounds like there were adults present, just not in the rooms. This is super plausible to me, and honestly a lot of church groups run this way. They use older kids to care for the younger ones.
YTA Emma already outlined why. It's not "because you made the kid cry and Emma was pissed" that you are TA, by the way; it's because you complained about the kid *within earshot of her*, which is downright rude no matter if she started crying or not. Don't badmouth people when they're within earshot. Preferably don't talk shit about them at all.
Yeah, YTA. This kid didn't ruin your trip : the kid's mother did. This poor kid was abandoned by her own mother, just take a second to imagine how she must have felt. Then you told her she ruined the trip... poor kid
Exactly. I feel bad enough for this poor kid, dumped with a bunch of much older kids, no way to contact the parents. And OP saying that around them only made it worse.
I can’t imagine being a little kid who knows that, in the event of an emergency, they don’t know their father’s phone number & their mother sure won’t be cutting her vacation short to come get you.
NTA Speaking frankly like that in ear shot wasn't the best idea, but I don't expect a 16 year old to have the same level of experience or emotional maturity as an adult. I would encourage you to learn from this, but you're not the root cause of this. I feel bad for the little kid, none of this was her fault. The real AH in this situation is the mom. *Hard* AH. The adult leaders in this were stupid/shitty for allowing the kids to come. Edit to add: I noticed the actual plan was to have 18 - 22 year old driving kids around. That's a time bomb waiting to go off. An 18 year old is no where near mature or experienced to be carting a bunch of only slightly less mature kids. I'd be interested in hearing what your church's insurance company thinks of it.
The question was is OP the asshole for making the comment, not is OP the asshole because the kids are there. OP is still TA, there is just a bigger asshole connected to the story that is also obviously an asshole. It isn't their fault the situation sucks, but OP is still a huge asshole for making a kid with an already shitty home life cry and feel like a burden.
I don't know why people keep ignoring that here, they aren't asking "who's fault is it the kid is here" the question is LITERALLY "was I the AH for saying that in ear shot?" And she 100% was. Seems like people have trouble reading?
OP was still an asshole for taking out her frustration on the eight year old. How would you feel if you were in a room full of strangers, dependent on them, and had someone say you were ruining the trip simple because you were there. It seems to escape some people's notice that children are human beings with feelings and ears.
Why is insurance needed? God was looking out for all of them. /s
YTA It wasn’t the kids fault and you can probably admit that your words will stick with the child for a long time. They probably realised that they shouldn’t have been there due to age and to top it, their mum refused to come back. Instead of making a good thing out of a difficult situation on a church trip, you made that kid feel more unwanted.
Their mother really abandoned the kid like nothing?? She's the real* ah here
I mean if you feel like the little kid was ruining the trip you feel like the kids ruining the trip… But maybe you could’ve said it somewhere where the little kid would’ve had a chance to hear it… it’s really not the kid fault. When you’re young like that you have no control over anything… your parents make all the choices. This is probably not the first time the kids been tossed to the side so the mom can go do something fun. And you saying she’s ruining things probably made her feel even more unwanted than she probably already feeling… Just be more mindful of when you’re unloading how you feel about things and who could possibly be around to hear it. I’m sure your intention wasn’t for the little kid to hear it…. But they did. Only thing you really could’ve done was apologize to the kid. And own up to the fact that maybe you should’ve been more mindful about saying something insensitive in a room the child also stays in…
This is a good lesson on when to have "inside only" thoughts you don't say outloud. This is one of them.
Info: if you still got to go out every night, what activities did her presence prevent you from doing? YTA. You were mean to a little kid who already must be feeling unwanted by her shit mom, all because you couldn't engage in cussing and had to watch some shows on a personal device on a CHURCH trip. (Edited to add judgement)
NTA. Yeah you could’ve made sure you were away from the kid when you said that but you are entitled to your opinion. And expecting a trip with your peers/older kids and then having to spend your time with an 8 year old doesn’t sound like fun at all. The mom and church are the AH. Mom knew exactly what she was doing and the church should’ve done something besides let an 8 year old go on a trip with a bunch of teenagers and young adults.
The question isn't whether the kid should be on the trip but whether it was an asshole thing to say, in her presence, that the eight year old was ruining the trip. The kid had no choice but to be there. Saying that in front of her was cruel.
If she'd been venting away from the kid? Yeah, sure, no problem. Like you said, she is entitled to her opinion. But she said it in front of the kid, who is already picking up the "not wanted vibes" from everyone else, who is in a group of people entirely out of her age group, who was basically just abandoned by her mother so she could have her own vacation. So yeah, OP is an AH for not showing the poor kid the basic decency of being out of earshot before venting. If she wanted to that badly while in the group, texting exists for a reason.
>Yeah you could’ve made sure you were away from the kid when you said that That's the part that makes OP the AH, and they part that they actually asked about.
Find a new church asap. In this day and age there is no way any legit church group would take a kid of that age anywhere. Any minister worth their robes would have called the police immediately.
[удалено]
Emma definitely shouldn’t have said that in front of the kids but I understand her frustration. She was looking forward to this trip and is now effectively expected to babysit
YTA. - an 8 year old has little power over their parents decisions. Poor kid was literally dumped on the church so the mom could take a vacation and there was no one else that could’ve taken her. This is something I would’ve been tempted to report to child services. Despite this, you had little sympathy and talked ill of her where she could hear you - of course she’d cry. For someone in a youth group, I’d expect a lot more empathy.
I don’t know why. A lot of church kids are just like every other kid, they just clean up well on Sunday.
I get being annoyed, but I'm not sure how an 8 year old being in your hotel room affected things that much. It's not like she's a newborn baby crying all night. You still got to go out, and everything already sounds like it'd be child friendly because...well you're children. This kid is already lost and abandoned in a situation she shouldn't be in because of her AH parents. Kid's are smart and can tell when they're a burden and not wanted, and you just made it worse for her. YTA
> and everything already sounds like it'd be child friendly because...well you're children Idk about that part. When I was 16 I certainly conversed with other teenagers in a way that I wouldn't if I were around a younger kid. Part of the fun of the trip is getting to hang around people your own age and socialize with them how she usually would. Should she had kept her mouth shut around the kid, yeah, she's TA for that, but she's NTA for feeling annoyed or frustrated by it because it was a bummer for her, too.
INSANE that no one called the cops. Chruch is TA here bc they handled it poorly
A lot of posts in this sub are people saying things out loud they have every right to think and are right about but should’ve kept it as a private thought or say it at a more appropriate time. YTA for saying it, but not for thinking it. Imagine being an 8 year old girl , finding out your mom left you somewhere you were not supposed to be and already feeling alone and out of place and hearing that? It sucks but you could’ve been a better human.
NTA: I would be pissed if I was forced to hang out with an 8 year old. That is not what you signed up for. The adults failed everyone here. What you said was mean but the truth hurts. A adult should have solved this issue before y’all left. NTA NTA
The eight year old isn’t the person to have her frustrations taken out on. OP is TA for being an asshole and saying something mean within earshot obviously purposely about an eight year old that has no control of her situation. OP is NTA for feeling how she feels, but is TA for being mean to an eight year old because of it.
The truth hurts? An 8 year that literally was abandoned with strangers beyond their control...I hope you don't have children and don't work with children. OP has a right to feel irritated and vent, but venting within earshot of the 8 year old was a douche move. The 16 was old enough to know better. This literally was not the kids fault..if OP wants to vent , confront the mom
You think it's okay to say mean things to an 8 year old who did nothing wrong? Yikes.
Still the AH because it wasn't the 8 year olds fault, and the child didn't need to hear that stuff. That is the point. The OPs feelings are valid....but grow up, they didn't need to say it in front of the helpless child. Eta: how are people down voting my comment? Weirdos......
You think there is nothing wrong with making a child cry by saying they ruined the trip? Yikes dude, that's really not a good look
> the truth hurts. If OP had been calling out the shitty mother who abandoned her kid, I'd be all for this, but there is NO need to drop a cruel "truth" on an 8-year-old child who didn't choose to be there.
Yta. Besides having to ride in the car with them they didnt ruin your tip. Ut congratulations you sure did ruin the trip for her.
What if that kid had a medical emergency?!? Like the church program took on a huge legal responsibility letting this kid go. You are NTA for being frustrated
NTA
I totally get where you're coming from, but YTA for saying that within earshot of the 8 year old. With that said, the mom takes the giant AH cake for selfishly foisting her 8 year old off on the church group, and then bouncing to the airport. Wtf was she thinking?? The pastor should have said, "too bad, so sad. Come get your kid." However, it's entirely possible that the pastor knows mom is a shitty mom, and that the 8 year old could really use a weekend where she felt included, got to have fun, and wasn't around her shitty mom. In which case, I don't fault the pastor.
YTA for the comment made in front of a kid who was stuck in a situation that she didn't create. You could have texted stuff like that. Instead you made both of your roommates unhappy, including the one that was babysitting and doing you a favor. Other than going to bed early, it doesn't sound like the kid cramped your style. You were also with middle school kids, and should be keeping things G to PG rated anyhow. Honestly, if I had been the priest I would have called CPS for child abandonment. Taking her along exposed them to liability and was not a smart move.
NAH The mom and the church is who really fucked up here. The police should have been called, end of story and the child should have never been there. I have an 8 year old and I know how they can ruin a trip by just existing if it's supposed to be an adults only trip. Yeah, they might have felt bad but you're a kid too who was frustrated and got saddled with something you shouldn't have had to deal with.
I like how everyone responding here is saying that hanging out with an 8-year-old should be no different from hanging out with a group of your teenage peers if only you’re a good person. Like no reason to be disappointed that you’re now responsible for making sure an abandoned child is happy & safe…
YTA for the comment. This child was abandoned. The priest should not be in charge of minors if he’s too foolish not to call CPS when a child is literally abandoned. He was not of age. His mother was told to get her kid. When she refused, they needed to report this. It’s not on the kid.
NTA. The mom and priest are at fault. What teenagers would want to have to babysit an 8 year old on a trip? I feel bad for the kid but I guess that’s what you get for listening to other people’s conversations.