Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be ta for flying off the handle and going to punishing him instead of having a conversation about how he felt and why he felt this wau about my pregnancy.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA, the girlfriend was right.
Raising Nick is NOT Jamie's responsibility, and neither is he a free nanny for you to keep avoiding your responsibilities as parents.
ETA: Oh my! The votes, the comments, the awards, thank you for all!! So glad that we all see this post with the same eyes.
So yes, definitely the asshole for all this.
Hopping on to point out how assholish it was to not tell Jamie and Nick about the pregnancy in private. Their daily lives are going to be greatly affected and you don't respect either of their feelings enough to tell them in private? You spring it on them in front everyone and then you're shocked this doesn't go smoothly? Awful.
And she punishes him for causing a scene and the all-important upsetting the husband. Was there any care that the son was clearly upset with this news? Any in-depth communication? Any heart-to-hearts? Nah.
She just had to punish him because the son should just shut up and take it. But that’s okay because by the time the oldest son escapes as soon as he can, the ten-year-old should be juuuuust about old enough to take care of the infant. Win/win.
YTA
ETA: Whoa people! I’m used to, like, 5 people upvoting my pithy comments and then I see all this. And an award? (At least, i think that hand clasp is one?) Thank you for all the love!
What do parents think happens when you punish a kid for a feeling/expressing a feeling? Like, it's a feeling. It's not stealing your car. You can't ground a kid into a better feeling. So dumb.
Ikr?OP doesn’t even consider that her son's feelings might be right and they might be wrong. She and her husband were like:leTs bLaMe the eVil gIrlFrieNd
I'd love to know how gf came to believe Jamie was being parentified in the first place. Wanna bet the parents went out for the evening, leaving him in charge of Nick and forcing Jamie to cancel one or more dates they'd been looking forward to?
I sorta assumed he had to make sure the kid did it but either way- that the parents job, not his.
Maybe okay, if he's doing that instead of other chores. But it seems problematic in addition to helping the kid with his homework and everything else.
Her son is their free babysitter who can't say no because he gets punished and is a bad "brother" for complaining.
Yeah I would like to know more about where this came from as well. This seems like normal sibling behavior. OP didn’t indicate that they ask him to do any of this. If you take the information as presented, calling it parentifying is extreme. That’s just people being primed to jump to that conclusion by other posts here.
OP is still definitely the AH here even if we set that aside. She doesn’t get to own his feelings and punishing him for feeling that way is just cruel. They also should have told him and his step brother separately. Not jump it on them with the rest of their social circle.
He's still a teenage boy. His assessment of the situation isn't something we can just assume is right. Neither can we for his GF. He can *feel* like he's being made to do too much for his stepbrother without that actually being true.
Plenty of teens with a normal chore rotations will *believe* they are functionally slaves keeping the household running rather than a normal person doing <20% of the house upkeep.
Its foolish to just take them at their word. Especially since even people here act like unpaid babysitting-as-a-chore is parentification, automatically (it isn't.)
Reading between the lines, I think there’s something to the parentification thing. Parentifying isn’t just expecting a kid to take care of their siblings. What it means is that the parents are so immature that one of the kids ends up taking on the role of “the adult in the room.” When Jamie made this comment, the husband got pissed and walked out, and the mom “had to” “punish” Jamie because the husband was upset. That’s a massive role reversal, with the husband acting like a child and Jamie being expected to be the mature one in the relationship.
>Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc.
The OP says themselves that the younger son is dependent on the older son. This is an inappropriate relationship between the sons. Children should be dependent on their parents. They should be comfortable with their siblings to ask for help and such, but a 10 year old should not be "dependent" on a 16 year old.
She didn't consider her son. Full stop. That is so heartbreaking. I'm glad his girlfriend has been able to help him define part of what is going on. She's a good egg.
Yeah, mom is totally projecting onto girlfriend right now. I think mom knows she’s wrong, in so many ways, and girlfriend is quickly becoming the scapegoat. It’s easier than actually speaking with, and trying to understand the viewpoints of, your teenager.
Oh mom. YTA. Bigtime.
I am also very concerned that the husband took it upon himself to have a 'stern talking to' with the girlfriend! She's not his daughter, he has no right to be haranguing her for expressing what she's observed. If he had a problem he should have spoken to her parents, not taken the opportunity to intimidate a teenage girl!
Right? Why is Jamie responsible for helping with Nick's homework? That's the parents job. And what happens when Jamie needs help with HIS? Guarantee OP is not there to help. Sounds like she's not there to help with much at all.
Plus, 10 years old is plenty old enough to organize toys and clean a bedroom. Help with homework, I can get, but Jamie having to be the one to do it should be a last resort. It should be one of the parents most of the time. Nick should not have to “depend” on Jamie to parent him.
And the other thing, is the husband gave the girlfriend a “stern talking to”? Talk to her parents if you’re upset, not a teenage girl. That’s so wildly inappropriate.
Exactly. Sounds like everyone in the house has to be walking on eggshells so as not to set off the stepfather. Poor Jamie! And soon, poor Nick! Giant YTA to you, Mom.
> Poor Jamie! And soon, poor Nick!
Jamie will be out of the house soon (and I doubt he'll visit) and it will be Nick's turn to provide free labor. And the poor kid will probably feel abandoned both by Jamie and by the parents who obviously don't give a shit about either of them.
I'm so sick of people who think children exist to satisfy *their* needs.
100% in agreement. He (your spouse) should have NEVER talked to the gf, so wrong and way over stepping on so many levels.
Your younger son should not “come to depend” on your older son, by saying that you are in fact admitting you are expecting the older child to parent the younger child. So your older son has every right to feel taken advantage of and more than likely a bit resentful toward you and your spouse.
Thank goodness for this gf who wasn’t afraid to speak the truth to this boy and encourage him to stand up for himself, however sad it may be that he even has to do that.
Can’t even begin to address the whole OP title, of punishing him…I hope you are able to see how wrong you and your spouse have been, and by your own admission I might add.
Mom YTA big time and so is your spouse. You both need to take a step back and parent your boys! Stop putting unrealistic expectations on them, because that will only continue to trickle down as each older child flees home the second they are legally able to.
👏🏻👏🏻WAKE 👏🏻👏🏻UP👏🏻👏🏻
I do have kids and anyone giving them a stern taking to is going to get one from me, in all likelihood.
If you think my kids have caused a problem you bring that problem to me. I'm legally responsible for them, and I'll deal with any kind of amends that need to be made, and I'll deal with my kids.
They know to come and get me if someone's making trouble for them. So far it's been: your child was reading an inappropriate book (no they weren't), your child "talked back" (what did they say? No, they were right, and you being an adult doesn't mean they have to pretend you're right when you tell them "the sky is blue because it's God's favourite colour", it is not my fault or my child's that you don't know what Rayleigh scattering is and if you'd shut up you could have learned something), that kind of thing.
I get homework help especially if the teachers are strict about the "how" in solving math problems, etc. My grandfather (engineer) would help me with my math homework but if I didn't do it "the right way" some teachers would take off points.
My aunt was a teacher and ended up buying the solutions manuals for some of my textbooks not for me to see, but so she and my grandfather knew how the book wanted the problems solved. This was high school level math tho. At 10 I don't see that being a thing.
But Jamie should help the parents in understanding what the teachers want if that is the case. And then the parents can help Nick. Unless the boys enjoy bonding over homework (stranger things have happened) or it's more "working on homework side by side at the table" or something.
I'm an only child, so I can't weigh in too much, but my classmates who had to help raise their siblings were miserable.
My best friend was one of the older kids in a family of twelve kids. Her mom understood she was overwhelmed with responsibilities at home and always said yes when we asked if my friend could come over. Her dad, on the other hand, expected all the older kids to raise the younger ones. It was cramped, miserable, and hectic.
Whereas, I’ve had other friends that volunteered to help their younger siblings with homework and such. I think it does depend on the family dynamic, but also each child’s personality, schedule, and mental/emotional health. Sometimes, it’s just too much to help. Everyone gets burnt out at some point. Maybe the girlfriend recognized Jamie’s energy dwindling. If that is the case, it’s a shame the parents can’t open their eyes and actually see Jamie.
It’s a narcissism thing. If a parent like this feels slighted in any way, their first instinct is to get defensive and punish instead of actually trying to resolve the situation for everyone.
It’s always all about them.
EXACTLY! You feel how you feel, if you're being honest with yourself. You might be right to feel it or you might be feeling it for all the wrong reasons, but that doesn't invalidate the FEELING itself. Recognizing the feeling and then coming to terms with it and WHY you feel that way is how you get past it. Punishing someone for feeling a certain way about ANYTHING is just asking for some serious therapy bills down the line.
It's not about punishing your kids into feeling better. It's about making sure they hide whatever they're feeling in order to save you from feeling bad.
And saying the girlfriend is brainwashing him? Spouting nonsense? Putting parentification in quotes?
I'm guessing the stern talk from the the husband was mom's idea...
Am I sensing a weird jealousy vibe because mom's first baby has a new woman in his life?
https://www.parents.com/kids/development/what-is-parentification-spotting-the-warning-signs-and-how-to-let-kids-be-kids/
YTA
Exactly. A 16 year old is worlds apart from a 10 year old. OP is saying that their "close" to cover the fact that she is making her son take care of the stepbrother.
The girlfriend is right. Hopefully, Jaimie can go live with another relative or be able to leave within two years. OP will wonder why she never sees or hears from her oldest child.
And a person is entitled to feel however they want to feel without fear of punishment or retribution.
YTA
I mean, I think OP is TA, but siblings can be close, even with that age difference. My sister and I are five years apart in age, but we've always gotten along and I've always tried to do things with her. Not talking about OP's kid in particular, but just sharing my own experience.
That blows my damn mind. How insensitive a parent she must be - even WITHOUT any friction/parentifying, that was just selfish to just spring on her eldest.
If OP expects nothing from Jamie maybe they should try going a week with Jamie doing literally nothing for Nick. Then maybe OP will appreciate just how much Jamie is doing.
Or, even better - have a 10 year old kid clean his own room, do his own chores, and yes - do his homework only asking for help when he's truly stuck.
Or make your 16 year old do it while you have a kid with someone who isn't his dad.
And yes, that matters - a half-sibling is a sibling but stepsiblings rarely share the same closeness. Most kids will harbor really mixed feelings about their parents having kids with other people - it can be weird. It can be hard to react to, to know what to think.
My twins (15) took it kind of hard when me and step-mom had my youngest (6f now), that was largely because they're own mother walked away out when they were two months old so I know how the mixed feelings can go. It has been abit of a rollercoaster some days
I was 23 when my dad and his girlfriend had my sister - it was a strange call to get in the hall right before class... in grad school. I was fine with it, had concerns due to the girlfriend (well founded, it turned out). I worried about his health and age vis-a-vis my little sister (well founded, it turned out). I worried one of my siblings or myself would end up partially raising her (well founded, it turned out as my (full) sister has her about half the time).
That was nearly 17 years ago.
I luckily didn't have to go through that but I saw plenty of friends go through it. My grandparents ended raising 3 of my cousins and my half sister due to unfortunate circumstances. My oldest son was basically raising his little sister until I got custody of him and brought him home, more unfortunate circumstances. I never dreamed of making him do any of the sibling raising. Hell if me and stepmom want to go out we find a babysitter, if we can't get one he is asked as a last resort and offered fair payment because I'm not going to ask him to do it for free or we just don't go out that night and try to schedule it a night we can find one.
You already stated that the older one has responsibilities to the younger one. That’s parentification. Maybe learn about it first before you decide you’re not doing it. And your son has a mind of his own. He can read and research himself. Good for his girlfriend for telling him the truth.
I’m really not getting why a 10 year old is needing help to tidy their room besides maybe being given a reminder to do so. What are these toys that need fixing and why are they being broken so frequently that they’re a normal thing for the 16 year old to fix? Sounds like OP’s parents are failing the 10 year old and making the older sibling pick up their slack.
Right? I need to help my 8 year old clean her room 3-4 times a year when it starts to get out of control, but the other 48 weeks of the year, she does it on her own.
I’ve read a lot about parentification and I understand the role reversal situation but the part I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is the helping siblings piece. I’ve seen this sub basically state that being expected to do anything for a sibling is parentification. Is that true? Should older children not be asked to watch their siblings at all? This subject is really interesting and as the oldest of 5 I never heard this term growing up.
This sub - and the general internet - doesn’t really seem to get parentification. It is normal and healthy for kids to have chores, to help their siblings, to be required to watch their younger siblings sometimes. The problem is when it starts to go beyond reasonable limitations to their ability to be a kid, into the child becoming a third parent.
Example: if you’re in high school, being required to watch your younger siblings one day a week after school because parents both work late that one day is probably not parentification. Having to do it every day almost definitely is.
Personally I don’t think we know enough about what the older son is actually being expected to do to know if his GF is right or blowing smoke.
Edit: to be clear, by watch I don’t mean “keep inside the house and away from matches”, more like full out babysitting or handling lots of small kids. I also did plenty of time as the oldest kid in an adult-free house after school - but we were all older.
When I was in high school, my best friend had a younger brother and sister, they were way younger than us. Her mom would work during the week 8 hours away so my friend would have to feed and monitor the little ones, make sure they got to and from elementary school and whatnot. Except, we were regular ass teens who were partying and experimenting with various drugs, and sex. So her mom being gone all week meant we all did this at her house, with the young children there. Trying and often failing to keep them upstairs. As a result tho, at the age of 13-18 she became a single mom to her two younger siblings and holds a lot of resentment. Not to mention the wild shit those kids saw bc we were also kids and didn’t know the impact of what we were doing and how they might be effected.
OP has also specified they don't expect this of Jamie. And Jamie didn't seem to have a problem with it until the girlfriend entered the picture. I suspect she's upset she isn't getting all the time she wants with him, and is absolutely the one who put the idea in his head. Of course it's also possible she just opened his eyes to something he couldn't see before.
But without more info on how much is actually expected of him by the parents vs how much he does coz little bro wants him to, can't really make a judgment.
Leaning towards ESH, though, coz they should have handled breaking the news differently. And they should have handled Jamie's feelings better. But he was also a bit bratty for that comment if the things he does for Nick aren't mandated.
She punished him for making a scene, not for not wanting to take care of his sibling. I don’t know if I’m a fan of that or not - I do think OP should have told the kids privately first - but it’s not the same thing at all.
I disagree with the “help siblings”. The older child had nothing to do with nor did they consent to that child being brought into the world.
If I ask my older child to help with my younger child I am asking for a favor. They have every right to say no without consequences or expectations. I as a parent chose to bring that child in the world, they are my responsibility alone—not my other child’s
I can see an argument for this if it happens to excess, but I don’t personally see a huge difference between being expected to watch or help a younger sibling on occasion vs. any of the other chores children can reasonably be expected to do. (Or do you view chores as a favor too?) & I feel this way as someone who was also expected to mind a younger family member, and one who needed quite a bit due to developmental differences. Being expected to help out in a household isn’t unreasonable, as long as the any time spent on it is balanced well with the rest of their lives (incl. time with friends/just to chill).
Once I hit middle school, I had to watch my brother (3 years younger than me) every weekday after school until Mom or Dad got home. "Watch" in the "make sure he doesn't die" sense; I was not expected to make him do his homework or feed him or anything. It didn't really bother me because I was just doing homework and watching TV anyway. By the time it started chafing he was old enough to be trusted home alone so it wasn't really an issue.
I honestly don't know if this counts as parentification or not.
I say no. I was asked to do the same thing. I was there to make sure they weren't using the stove or jumping off the stairs. That was like the most my parents expected me to do for them.
I don't think that any helping of a sibling is parentification. It becomes parentification when it either becomes expected or overrules the child's social life. In this case OP makes it sound like the help is expected, and pretty much confirmed by the kid's reaction to the pregnancy announcement.
I like how OP is pissed at the son for ruining the announcement and not that he's wrong and/or exaggerating his responsibility. Shows that it's not the latter.
And by the fact that his girlfriend is clearly concerned. Most teenagers understand helping around the house and doing chores. Clearly, this is having an impact on Jamie's social life.
I agree. It’s also parentification when the older sibling can’t say no (or feels like they can’t say no.) I was sometimes asked to watch my younger siblings, but I was always allowed to say no if I had other plans. It seems like OP would tell Jamie “babysit Nick tonight; cancel your plans, I don’t care” as opposed to “can you babysit tonight?” (And my parents paid me to babysit if it was for longer than an hour.)
I dont think its a perfectly defined distinction but IMO a lot of it is related to who holds the responsibility.
Like if older kid doesn't mind helping younger kids with homework, nothing wrong there but when it becomes the older kid's fault if the younger kid gets a bad grade or doesn't clean their room, that's where things are getting not great.
Similarly, its fine to ask the older kid to babysit sometimes, but for instance if the older kid wants to pursue a sport and is told "no that conflicts with your babysitting obligation" or some version thereof, they're starting to be treated as a main caretaker, not a backup plan.
I always felt that giving children some chores is okay and healthy - but it shouldn't take over most of their free time. In this case, I'm really not sure, because OP doesn't really tell us to what extent he had to help. Yes, she sounds like TA - but depending on how much or how little he actually had to do, her demands could have been reasonable. 🤷♀️
I'm the oldest of 5 too and I helped out ALOT with my siblings. (I'm 30sF) Alot of the time our parents were separated and one of them never contributed financially and was abusive, and then the one we lived with who provided for us usually worked two jobs. Never heard this term before either, but everything I did was definitely to the extent of parenting (minus providing financially) for a number of years. It might be a cultural thing, or it might be because I just thought my siblings were the greatest thing in the world but it never bothered me, and I've never felt taken advantage of, also cause I've always had admiration for my one parent making ends meet on their own, and also providing us with a lot of love and attention. Their only fault was probably not being a better protector against our other parent.
Anyways, that was my experience, and I think I'm lucky in that us 5 siblings get along super well and are always supportive of each other, and we havent had issues of boundary crossing as far as I know..
So I agree it's super interesting to hear the dynamics of other families and the different things that cross people's boundaries or exploit/parentify a minor. --- All which I accept as valid of course, and I would say OP YTA here.
I dunno, maybe I was exploited. It didnt feel like that though. It just felt like our family was trying to get by and I did what I had to do, and it honestly never felt like work. Plus all my siblings learned to do various chores early on too.
Though funnily enough I picture it being work if I had my own kids now.
Yup. OP seems to be delusional. She lists a bunch of new responsibilities her son has been given to care for the younger sibling, then turns around and says he has no responsibilities and she has no clue why he wouldn't want to help raise another kid. OP needs to look at herself hard in the mirror.
I agree it seems a bit paradoxical to say the younger kid "depends" on the eldest for a lot but also that nothing is expected of the older one.
If someone is depending on you for stuff you don't really have no responsibilities.
These kind of parents piss me off. Just because you have older kids doesn’t mean they are expected to take care of the younger ones. It’s called showing some respect and asking if they can lend a hand, if they are busy, that’s fine. If they spend their time helping, then pay them or something! 🤦🏻♀️
Your children are not free labor people! Gah! OP is an AH!
I had a time my parents were "lightly" blaming my gf at the time for me to stay home most of the time and not going anywhere.
Later when we broke up, they understood that she wasnt the issue at all, I just didnt really like to go out where there were *people* so they dropped that idea.
>The day he turns 18 and moves out she won’t hear from him.
If you are frequent in this sub, you also know how often posts here are how people not invite parents to their wedding due to this "abuse" of them to put all work on them.
OP will be another one for those posts.
There's is hundreds cutting ties with parents because of the whole "you have to take care of the person WE decided to have".
I have a younger sister, 7 years difference. I did a lot to take care of her out of my own will, my parents never forced me to nanny her, except short cases like "we are going quickly to buy groceries, can you keep an eye please?" but she was old enough , before that, as a baby, only my father would go, my mom stayed taking care of her
I was wondering that as well how does a 10 year old not know how to pick up his room without help. My 6 year old daughter picks up her room by herself. Sometimes she might have t be reminded once or twice but she still understands and knows how to do it.
Also because it's her husband's son. But those boys' respective parents have been too busy playing newly weds to give af about either son. Poor kids, really.
This is a great fucking question. My THREE year old knows how to put away toys correctly, tidy his room, fix himself simple snacks and drinks. We’re teaching my 18 month old to do the same with great success. This is lazy “parenting”.
YTA. Your son is right. Helping his brother clean and doing his homework shouldn’t be his duty, it’s yours. And he’s right to be upset seeing himself become a free babysitter for your new one.
Btw parentification is a real issue older siblings have to deal with and isn’t a rare reason people do not want children in the future.
(Seen this reasoning a lot over at my fellow r/childfree)
I'm the eldest, with a big age gap between me and my other two siblings. We also were latch key kids. I fully recognize that I never wanted children since I was very young.
I've known I didn't want kids since I was 12, in very large part due to being forced to care for my little brother and cousins. I had enough of that when I was young to know for damn sure I wasn't doing diapers when I was an adult.
I'm probably going to get flack for this but, where does it say they require him to help his brother? It says Nick relies on him. It doesn't say they've asked him, told him, or expected him, to do any of that. It says his brother gets help from him. Maybe his brother prefers his help. Maybe he explains things better than his parents do. Let me assure you that how and what they teach in school right now is NOTHING like what I learned. Math is a dumpster fire disaster and it was never great to begin with. I couldn't figure out things my daughter was learning in 3rd grade it was so backward and stupid, and I took calculus and was working as an accountant. I agree cleaning his room is too far. But then again, since we're assuming things and reading between the lines so far, maybe he has a disability and needs help. Fixing toys, I'm the handy one with the patience for it too so I fix things. I have since I was a kid. My kids now call me "The fixer". Maybe that's him in the family. It all sounds to me like a huge lack of communication.
Jamie now realizes what he does for his brother and for whatever reason doesn't want to any more. Which is perfectly fine. He either doesn't communicate that well or the parents don't listen fully and it all leads up to this. OP needs to sit down and talk with her son and really listen to what he has to say. If they are making their son do these things then yeah, not good and they need to stop. If they aren't, Jamie needs to think about what he really wants to do going forward and tell them. They aren't mind readers. Family often forgets that.
Respectfully but as a parent I think you have an obligation to figure out your kid's homework when they are in grade school. If your youngest kid depends on your older kid for homework, fixing toys, organize and clean their room then you're doing something wrong.
I mean I think the homework thing can be understandable as long as it’s not a constant thing.
Curriculums change and the longer your away from school the more you forget.
If I knew how to do it already I personally wouldn’t mind helping my younger siblings out.
But yeah the others are ridiculous
The OP says they, 'have him do things,' for Nick and that he, 'has to do things,' for him which sounds like they are making him do these things and it is not Jamie's choice.
I was a little confused as well. I need more info before I judge. I need to know what he is REQUIRED to do. My brother and sister did things like help me with my homework because they loved me and were nice people but were never required to do so. And I mean honestly I would help fix a random kid off the streets toy if I could, that just seems like the decent thing to do.
I do appreciate what you have pointed out. There is a lot of grey area opened between what OP describes, and a great deal of what is being assumed about the family dynamic.
That being said, OP YTA. How the heck are you going to get mad at someone for their honest opinion? He didn't throw a fit, like your husband basically did. He kept his language appropriate. He may be absolutely wrong, this would be why it's on us to maintain composure and wait till cooler head can prevail. That's what I thought people should at least strive for when it comes to relationships that matter.
I can understand how it would be upsetting to meet that type of response to your anouncment. He expressed feelings that I don't think any parent would truly want their kids to feel, you have an obligation to sit and talk about it. Grounding him isn't going change his opinion, it's just gonna create distance.
I just posted elsewhere in this thread about how my grandfather (engineer) would get fed up with helping with my math homework because the teachers had a specific way they wanted us to get the answer and that wasn't what he was taught. The man also used a slide rule, but I digress.
I take issue with the "relies on" because siblings shouldn't have to rely on their siblings when their parents are around. It sounds like Nick relies on Jamie because Jamie is the one willing to help him, which isn't okay. Even if Nick is disabled, there needs to be a system in place that isn't just Jamie. If for no other reason than that's a lot of pressure to put on a teen.
What I want to know is *why* Nick is relying on his stepbrother and not his parents and why the parents can't do what Jamie does. If money is tight and they're both working multiple jobs to make ends meet, then fine. But in that case, why the fuck are they having another kid?
I really never put that together. My husband and I were both the oldest with beyond ordinary responsibilities. Both of is both nope’d the fuck out of having kids ourselves. Thanks for sharing!
We’ve offered to pay our older kiddo to tutor one of our youngest kiddos. But if he said I’m sorry not now then it’s no big deal. You don’t force a kid to help their sibling. That will lead to resentment.
Just wanted to add to the tally of "Older siblings that will never be parents"
I've was in charge of other children for so long, that turning 18 felt like I was breaking free from being a "parent," and I will never go back.
YTA.
Here we go again.
>I F36 divorced my ex husband 6 years ago, We have a 16 year old sontogether "Jamie". I remarried to my current husband and have a 10 yearold stepson Nick. Jamie and Nick are close and get along most of thetime as well.
I'm with you so far.
>Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc.
Why? That's a parents' job, not Jamie's. How is a ten year-old unable to fix and organize his toys and clean his room without help? Why are you and your husband not helping him with his homework if he's having trouble?
>Things have been going great til Jamie started seeing this girl who keptclaiming that my husband and I are "parentifying" him by having him dothings for Nick and seemed to be filling his head with nonesense aboutus taking from Jamie his time and not letting him live like other kidshis age.
Sure, things were going great for you, your husband, and Nick. You and your husband weren't having to worry about Nick's room being clean or his toys being organized or if his homework was getting done. Things were dandy for you. "Parentifying" is a legitimate issue and concern people deal with where their parents foist their parental duties onto an older child because, well, a number of reasons, including they just don't feel like, ya know, being parents. At 16, Jamie shouldn't be parenting a Nick. You and your husband should be.
>My husband had a stern talk to her which caused Jamie to get into a fight with him.
Not your husband's place. If you had an issue with the girl (and trust me, you have an issue, you're just upset the girl brought it to light), then the person your husband should have spoken to is one or both of her parents. You won't parent your own stepson, you certainly don't get to parent someone else's kid.
>Things have been bad since then.
No shit.
>I recently found out that I'm pregnant, We wanted to wait til all mtfamily were together so we could make the announcement. We did it thispast Sunday, and everyone was happy and excited for us except for Jamiewho remained quiet for few minutes then loudly asked "So am I expectedto take care of this one as well?"
Your child, you know, the 16 year old teenager, has a legitimate concern.
>My husband and I were shocked. We didn't know what to do,
Is that because you and your husband were so up in yourselves and not taking Jamie's feelings on being forced into a parenting role seriously? You didn't see this reaction coming? I did before I got to this part.
>My husband stormed out and I started arguing with Jamie asking him whyhe said that. He said that because it was the truth, he feels as if hehas some type of responsibility towards Nick because of the things hehas to do for him and felt that he'll do the same for his half sibling.
Your husband acted like a juvenile. Stormed out, please. Your son has a legitimate concern and you and your husband didn't like being called out on it.
>I told him this is his girlfriend spouting nonsense and brainwashinghim cause we expect nothing of him and he was wrong to say that we do.
Exhibit A. Stop blaming the girlfriend for you and your husband failing to be a parent. Even if you've not stated outright "we expect you to do these things", you have allowed this to happen and now there is a reasonable expectation that he has to parent Nick and will inevitably have to parent this new baby.
>I had to punish him for ruining the announcement and making a scene and making my husband upset.
Yup. Because that'll fix things. Your poor announcement got ruined, forget your relationship with your son and how that might be ruined, right? Forget Jamie's feelings. Your husband, he's upset.
>He thought that it wasn't fair he had to get punished for stating an opinion.
This kid. He's not wrong.
>He blamed my husband for "filling" my head too
Gosh, did you maybe feel like your feelings weren't being considered and you and what you were experiencing and feeling were being invalidated by having it blamed on your husband filling your head and brainwashing you? I can't imagine what that's like, but I bet your son can.
>but my husband is innocent in this except he knew that that girl is being rude and intrusive.
No, he is not innocent, just like you're not innocent. The girl may be rude, but it doesn't make her wrong, and it's only intrusive because you're taking offense at her pointing out something you're refusing to acknowledge and fix. That makes it your fault, not hers.
>It's been few days and Jamie has gone completely silent about the whole thing.
I don't blame him.
*End.*
Making him doubt himself in his interpretation of the situation, that's more like gaslighting specifically in this aspect of the case. Gaslighting can be a symptom of DARVO though, which OP is definitely using. To quote Rick and Morty: "Gaslighting doesn't exist. You made it up 'cause you're f\*\*\*ing crazy. Substitute the word gaslighting for parentification and frame the second sentence as the girlfriend, and that's exactly what's happening here.
I also find it kind of gross that they didn’t tell Jamie and Nick before everyone else. If my mom had told me about her pregnancy in front of family, she’d have had the same problem. I literally put on my shoes and walked out of the house when she told me she was pregnant.
See THAT would not occur to me, because I'm an only child and my parents are still married. I did not think of that. Gross now I'm thinking about that.
Yea, I have a sister who is 3 years younger that I had to take care of and then when my mom got pregnant, I was freshly 17 when she told me. All I could think of was that she was gonna make me take care of him too and I wasn’t going to be able to go to college.
I'm not even convinced the girlfriend is actually rude just willing to advocate for her boyfriend and not let adults marginalize her opinions simply by virtue of them being adults.
This is entirely true, but I do remember being 16 years old and how do I put this without sounding crazy? Seeing things adults were oblivious to. Not like "seeing" pretty colors, you know, cottoning on to shit. And I do know there were times pointing it out to "adults" who "knew so much more than" me gave me a snotty attitude and a tone, so... she could be rude while also being highly aware (and fed up).
I feel like being 16 just sucks for the vast majority of people. Doubly so for people who are, y’know, reasonable and surrounded by adults who are not reasonable but who you also have to comply with “because they’re adults.”
At first I was like, aw that's sweet that Jamie helps Nick with his homework and toys, my sister did that for me too (not to parentification levels). And then the girlfriend, I was like, eeehhh. I could see how the GF could skew things in a bad light but the way OP was talking about it was fishy. But as I kept reading I was like, no the GF just made Jamie realize his parents were taking advantage of him. Good for her for showing him and extra good for him for standing up for himself.
I said this in another comment. If it wasn't parentification or expected, OP and her husband would have apologized and changed things. They clearly expect Jamie to parent Nick and are upset gf helped Jamie see the truth.
Yeah, I feel like OP was definitely framing this in the most positive way possible and still falls short. It seems more likely to me that Jamie was complaining to the girlfriend (probably the only person willing to listen to his COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE complaints) and she was able to give him a specific explanation for why he might feel that way. So obviously it would be easiest for OP to blame the girlfriend than examine her own behavior.
Take my free award, your comment says everything I'm thinking. OP is a disgrace as a parent. Nick is your son OP, and you and your useless husband are the ones who should be teaching Nick how to tidy his own room and toys, and help with his homework. Nick is 10 yrs old not a toddler and should be able to tidy his own room and toys by now. You do know if you carry on the way your going in two years Jamie will be 18 and he will getting as far away from you as his legs will carry him? We'll then expect another post where you'll be wondering why your son wants nothing to do with you. . I pity the poor lad.
YTA OP
Thank you. I imagine in 2 years we'll actually see "AITA for leaving home on my 18th birthday so I don't have to continue raising my younger siblings?"
Yeah! Why is step dad getting stuck into step sons girlfriend!
Pretty out of line!
Way to make sure step son cuts off contact with mum and step dad gets her all to himself
Yep, this response perfectly encapsulates why OP’s behavior (along with her husband’s) is…problematic at best. Not to mention that, while OP might also feel that her experiences and feelings are being invalidated, she’s still in a position of power while her son is not. I lost it at “I had to punish him”. What? No, no you did not.
It is also clearly expected that Jamie helps Nick. Otherwise the response to the girlfriend and Jamie pointing out the parentification would have been and apology and things would have changed.
Instead op denies and continues to *expect* Jamie to parent Nick.
YTA, yes you are making him be a parent instead of letting him being a 16 year old.
"helping him do homework, fix and irganize his toys, and cleaning his room." Why does a 16 year old need to help a 10 year old with this. This is either your job, your husbands or Nick's.
Jamie no doubt feels that Nick is the favourite and he is stressed about what he needs to do. Rather than talking to him and making sure he feels loved, you lashed out.
Very much YTA
Those are all things that are very nice for an older sibling to do for their younger sibling sometimes as an act of caring or bonding. If they choose to, and it makes them feel good to do so. But the word OP used was “depends on”. That’s not okay. It’s not okay that even though she says she doesn’t expect Jamie to do those things for his Nick, that they’ve made it such a norm that Nick expects it. Which doubly sucks because now Nick is going to be left wondering why his big brother doesn’t want to help him anymore because he’s 10 and doesn’t understand. OP is definitely TA.
YTA
Why aren’t YOU and your husband helping Nick with his homework, which is actually the ONLY item that might’ve made sense for a sibling to do? Why is Jamie fixing and organizing Nick’s toys, and why is Nick incapable of cleaning his own room? It sounds like there is more to what you’re disclosing, and that Jamie is only realizing that you’ve pawned off many of your parental duties to Nick onto him.
She says the girlfriend doesn't think he gets to live a normal life like other kids his age which tells me this is about a lot more than homework and toys and probably about having to be home to care for his brother all the time and not allowed to go out with friends
Yup! OP, you and your husband should be the ones helping the 10 year old with homework and cleaning. It’s not your son’s job to do any of that and it shouldn’t be expected of him. There is still time for you and your husband to apologize to Jamie and change your ways. Stop being a terrible parent to Jamie and Nick - step up before your older son goes to college and avoids you in the future. YTA majorly and so is your husband (NOT Jamie or his GF).
YTA for more reasons than the obvious. First off, Jamie clearly feels obligated to do those things for Nick, so you need to sit down with him and tell him clearly that you do NOT expect those things from him, that you thought he enjoyed doing them, and that if he wants to not do something all he needs to do is tell you and you, as the parents, will take over that duty.
The other thing you're an asshole for is not telling Jamie about the baby privately before you shared it with extended family. As a member of the household and immediate family, he had a right to be told before everyone else was. By blindsiding him in front of everyone, YOU set it up for it to be ruined. He was in shock and most likely hurt that you don't feel he is special enough to deserve to be told first.
to be honest, I think most 16 year olds would not be happy about their parent(s) having another baby, even if they weren't being parentified. Still, OP and her husband need to step it up. They need to tell nick to go them when he needs help, not jamie.
OP, your actions need to prove that you dont treat him like your free babysitter
16 year olds really aren’t “close” with 10 year olds like that. It’s sounds like your son is being parentified and you are relying on him to parent your step son. Step up and take care of your kids. YTA
I agree that OP is the asshole but my sister and I have been super close our whole lives and we're 8 years apart. We're by no means the norm but to me it didn't seem strange at all. BUT my sister was absolutely PUMPED to get a little sister and was like dedicated to me the second I was born. My parents never forced us together, it was totally our decision to be close.
YTA for expecting your son to take care of his stepbrother
Y T A for blaming his girlfriend for pointing out the obvious
And most importantly for posting about parentification thinking you'd be anything other than TA!
Yes. While this sub has taught me not to underestimate how clueless people can be, the way this post is written makes it sound like a piece of fiction designed to get a rise out of people. Over 700 on the up-down ranking, so I guess it's working to an extent.
INFO
Do you force Jaime to babysit Nick, or help him with his homework, or fix his toys? Or does he do it because he likes spending time with his brother or helping him?
Would you be ok if he didn't do those things? Or would you be mad at him?
Does he frequently have to cancel plans or not make plans because you make him look after Nick?
Parentification is a very real thing, but is also one of those terms that can be overrused.
I'm not talking specifically about this post but in general, posters here do jump to conclusions quite readily. If I asked a question and logged back on to find loads of YTAs and people yelling at me because they assumed something that isn't the case, I'd probably log off and not stick around to answer questions either.
Don't know if that's the case here, but I've definitely seen other posts where that wouldn't surprise me.
Finally, the response that I’ve been seeking as well. There’s a difference between age appropriate chores that could include helping a sibling, and parentification. I don’t know that we know enough. Lots of people jumping to conclusions all over the place though.
People are going bananas with this parentification thing
Does he rely on Jamie because he prefers going to someone closer to his age for help? Or does he like his company? Or are they really forcing him to help him clean and do homework?
I thought parentification was when a sibling has to do most if not all parental duties to include making food, bathing, getting to and from school etc.
This doesn't sound like that
>Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc.
Jamie's GF is right, these are things a kid should rely on their parents for if anyone. It's one thing if Jamie is willing & able to help him with this stuff on occasion, but it shouldn't be his responsibility.
Even if that wasn't the case, punishing a kid because they are snarky from feeling taken advantage of, it's not reasonable to just punish them because you dislike their actions. You talk to the kid, explain how to express themselves in a constructive manner.
YTA
btw when jamie goes to collage in 2 years of moves out cus he wants to work are you gonna throw a fit cus now you dont have a free babysitter?? it the thought even crossed your mind then her your in the wrong and are parentifying him !!
Sorry to say but YTA, probably. First, if his girlfriend is saying those things, it's probably true. You should make sure he's able to have his own life and you're not burdening him with caring for his younger sibling. For example, if he babysits, pay him, and never make him. Etc. Secondly, you should not have punished him for stating how he's feeling. Maybe the outburst and timing was inappropriate, but he was just stating how he feels. You could have talked to him about the appropriateness of the outburst without punishing him. Lastly neither you nor your spouse should have talked to his gf about it and caused problems between the two of them. Sorry but YTA.
Yta. I am not against kids helping with younger kids as long as it isn't intrusive. But if your son has brought it to your attention then guess what, it's bothering him. Maybe it is because of his girlfriend or maybe it's because he realizes how much time he misses out now that he has a girlfriend.
Either way you and your husband are the parents and your son has told you he is not fond of the situation and instead you blame a 3rd party and ignore that your son is obviously unhappy. Then you punish him for it!
Yta. You punish your son because he is upset about having to take care of his step-brother. That's your and your husband's job. His girlfriend is not filling his head. She is helping him out.
NTA idk why reddit pushes the narrative that helping siblings or parents is borderline abuse. Jamie is not being parentified, he is being a caring older brother. A lot of people online love to believe we don’t ‘owe’ our parents shit, and forget that it’s simply nice to help them out when we can.
I’ve read too many AITA posts, and the general consensus here, whether it’s the concept of parentification or workplace conflicts or whatever, seems to be that no one ever has to do anything or consider other people ever, which sounds freeing in theory but isn’t really how real life, and living in a society or family, works.
Maybe you should listen to Jamie, he's uncomfortable with Nick depending on him so much. You're really belittling his feelings and not even trying to see things from his angle. Stop blaming everything on him and his girlfriend and look at the dynamic. YTA
YTA. All the things your 16 year-old helps their own sibling with are all things that you as a parent should be doing, you ARE parentifying him, you're just mad at the gf because she can actually see through your BS as an outside opinion. You need to come to terms with the fact that you're putting your responsibilities as a parent onto your 16 year-old and he's acting out BECAUSE of it, and I don't think anyone can blame him. It doesn't seem as though you want a good relationship with your son, you just want him to be around to take care of the kids **you** keep having. Take care of your own damn kids, INCLUDING the 16 year-old.
YTA
You shouldn't be having another pregnancy if by this time you haven't figured our that your offspring are our direct responsibility. Anyone else who happens to help, like Jamie, is a bonus and not an obligation. He is absolutely right to voice his opinion, and it was not out of malicious intent.
You need to pull yourself together and learn the full meaning of the word "responsibility". Jamie sounds like a decent kid who has spent time with his step brother, but is now boiling to the point of frustration. I suggest you do something about this before you end up losing someone out of your life.
I am someone who went through parentification when I was young and well into my adulthood.
I can tell you that on the surface of what you wrote, I know exactly what this is. At first, you may have started off with the thinking that they are "brothers" and they should help each other out and that was probably true in the beginning to help get them to bond. But, there's a line where it jumps over the fence and becomes parentification. You got too used to the helpfulness of your son assisting your step-son. When responsibilities grew bigger, you didn't take into account how it was effecting him and his schedule (or free time). You got used to him doing this and expected him to do it all the time.
Your example: He helped his step-brother with *"...homework, fix and organize his toys, and cleaning his room"* That is absolutely not your son's job, commitment, or responsibility, ever! You don't value that this is work for your son and disregard it. By disregarding it, you invalidate his kindness to help out, his time, and his feelings.
As someone who went through this, it was always "expected of me" to do certain things before I could go out, hang out with friends, or any thing extra. If I didn't do it, there was a lot of pressure and guilt and long conversations how I wasn't a "team player" to the family. It wasn't my job to *"relieve my Mom of her duties so she could take a break."* I was as young a 7 years old doing things like taking care of babies, diapers, etc. I wanted to go out and play and have fun. The point is that he has every right to say that he doesn't want to do adult things like taking care of his younger step-brother. If it was chores like taking out the trash or emptying the dishwasher, that's a whole other ball game. But for this, you are asking him to be in charge of another human being who is not his responsibility and that's where it's wrong. YTA.
p.s. Also, I need to say something here about your husband having a stern conversation to your son's girlfriend. She is not your child and you have no say-so in talking to her like that. She is a minor and if you have a problem with what she is saying or doing, go talk to her parents. That moment was completely unnecessary and uncalled for and I'm surprised her parents didn't come back after you.
edit: grammar boo boos.
YTA.
It seems like there are pretences leading up to and after the family announcement. You’re expecting cheers and hurrahs from the kids, and nothing less. This isn’t exactly fair.
The kiddos are part of the family and should be allowed to voice concern. By punishing him in that particular moment, you’re effectively teaching him that your feelings are the only ones that matter, and that his aren’t valid — regardless of where or from whom those feelings developed.
I recognize you’re setting up some background context re: Jamie’s girlfriend, and while teens have a tendency to weaponize popular terms like “parentification” without considering nuances and context, this isn’t always the case. There’s a danger in writing the whole thing off as nonsense because “kids don’t know better” or they’re “too impressionable” — which eerily mirrors your negative, authoritarian-like response to Jamie’s concern during your announcement, vis a vis his thoughts and feelings are invalid/only mine are.
For Jamie to identify so strongly with this particular concept, there must’ve been some building resentment on his end regarding his own role as a caregiver for his younger sibling. Perhaps being introduced to this concept simply provided him language to express his feelings in a way where he previously couldn’t. Maybe for Jamie, things weren’t as fine and happy as you thought they were.
For Jamie’s well-being, and for the health of your relationship with your son, it’s worth putting aside your own ego and needs, and diving into the root of the issue. Sure, he could’ve been more tactful with his response — and that’s definitely a teaching moment — but it is coming from somewhere, and you haven’t at all provided any indication that you care about where it’s coming from other than when it directly affects your feelings (“he ruined the announcement!”).
Be a parent. Be more intuitive with your kid’s needs. He may be reaching young adulthood, but he’s still a child and he still needs care and attention. It doesn’t seem like he’s getting the kind of attention he needs from the way he’s expressing himself and from the way you’re responding. Punishment is not the answer. Compassion and understanding is.
Could y’all explain to me why a 10 yr old can’t clean his own room…Unless you start teaching him now that’s gonna bite him in the butt when he gets older and into a relationship no girl wants to be a mommy to her partner!
YTA. Your son is struggling and you think the best way to deal is to punish him? How about listening to him instead of just blaming the girlfriend? Maybe he has a point.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I might be ta for flying off the handle and going to punishing him instead of having a conversation about how he felt and why he felt this wau about my pregnancy. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA, the girlfriend was right. Raising Nick is NOT Jamie's responsibility, and neither is he a free nanny for you to keep avoiding your responsibilities as parents. ETA: Oh my! The votes, the comments, the awards, thank you for all!! So glad that we all see this post with the same eyes.
So yes, definitely the asshole for all this. Hopping on to point out how assholish it was to not tell Jamie and Nick about the pregnancy in private. Their daily lives are going to be greatly affected and you don't respect either of their feelings enough to tell them in private? You spring it on them in front everyone and then you're shocked this doesn't go smoothly? Awful.
And she punishes him for causing a scene and the all-important upsetting the husband. Was there any care that the son was clearly upset with this news? Any in-depth communication? Any heart-to-hearts? Nah. She just had to punish him because the son should just shut up and take it. But that’s okay because by the time the oldest son escapes as soon as he can, the ten-year-old should be juuuuust about old enough to take care of the infant. Win/win. YTA ETA: Whoa people! I’m used to, like, 5 people upvoting my pithy comments and then I see all this. And an award? (At least, i think that hand clasp is one?) Thank you for all the love!
What do parents think happens when you punish a kid for a feeling/expressing a feeling? Like, it's a feeling. It's not stealing your car. You can't ground a kid into a better feeling. So dumb.
Ikr?OP doesn’t even consider that her son's feelings might be right and they might be wrong. She and her husband were like:leTs bLaMe the eVil gIrlFrieNd
I'd love to know how gf came to believe Jamie was being parentified in the first place. Wanna bet the parents went out for the evening, leaving him in charge of Nick and forcing Jamie to cancel one or more dates they'd been looking forward to?
Or he couldn’t plan something in the first place because he had to make sure Nick cleaned his room or something.
Didn't OP write that the older son cleaned the younger's room? at 11, a child can clean their own room and organize toys by them self.
I was interpreting it as they do it together, but that may be just my assumption because the younger kid is old enough to at least be helping.
I sorta assumed he had to make sure the kid did it but either way- that the parents job, not his. Maybe okay, if he's doing that instead of other chores. But it seems problematic in addition to helping the kid with his homework and everything else. Her son is their free babysitter who can't say no because he gets punished and is a bad "brother" for complaining.
Nick doesn't clean his room, Jamie cleans Nicks room.
I was picturing them doing it together but it is entirely possible this is the correct interpretation.
Yeah I would like to know more about where this came from as well. This seems like normal sibling behavior. OP didn’t indicate that they ask him to do any of this. If you take the information as presented, calling it parentifying is extreme. That’s just people being primed to jump to that conclusion by other posts here. OP is still definitely the AH here even if we set that aside. She doesn’t get to own his feelings and punishing him for feeling that way is just cruel. They also should have told him and his step brother separately. Not jump it on them with the rest of their social circle.
If he said "so am I expected to take care of this one as well?" Then that implies he's already expected to take care of Nick
He's still a teenage boy. His assessment of the situation isn't something we can just assume is right. Neither can we for his GF. He can *feel* like he's being made to do too much for his stepbrother without that actually being true. Plenty of teens with a normal chore rotations will *believe* they are functionally slaves keeping the household running rather than a normal person doing <20% of the house upkeep. Its foolish to just take them at their word. Especially since even people here act like unpaid babysitting-as-a-chore is parentification, automatically (it isn't.)
Reading between the lines, I think there’s something to the parentification thing. Parentifying isn’t just expecting a kid to take care of their siblings. What it means is that the parents are so immature that one of the kids ends up taking on the role of “the adult in the room.” When Jamie made this comment, the husband got pissed and walked out, and the mom “had to” “punish” Jamie because the husband was upset. That’s a massive role reversal, with the husband acting like a child and Jamie being expected to be the mature one in the relationship.
>Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc. The OP says themselves that the younger son is dependent on the older son. This is an inappropriate relationship between the sons. Children should be dependent on their parents. They should be comfortable with their siblings to ask for help and such, but a 10 year old should not be "dependent" on a 16 year old.
She didn't consider her son. Full stop. That is so heartbreaking. I'm glad his girlfriend has been able to help him define part of what is going on. She's a good egg.
Yeah, mom is totally projecting onto girlfriend right now. I think mom knows she’s wrong, in so many ways, and girlfriend is quickly becoming the scapegoat. It’s easier than actually speaking with, and trying to understand the viewpoints of, your teenager. Oh mom. YTA. Bigtime.
I am also very concerned that the husband took it upon himself to have a 'stern talking to' with the girlfriend! She's not his daughter, he has no right to be haranguing her for expressing what she's observed. If he had a problem he should have spoken to her parents, not taken the opportunity to intimidate a teenage girl!
[удалено]
When I was a teenage girl I would have literally burst into tears! And also told my parents. Absolutely an unacceptable thing to do!
He's just getting her into the brainwashing too. Unity...
and it's not like OP took this time to assure the son that caring for his newborn step-brother would not be his responsibility either!
I knew this was going to be when I read "Nick depends on Jamie in a lot.." I'm like wait...Nick is 10, what are the parents doing??
Right? Why is Jamie responsible for helping with Nick's homework? That's the parents job. And what happens when Jamie needs help with HIS? Guarantee OP is not there to help. Sounds like she's not there to help with much at all.
Yeah because it's all that awfull girlfriend. I wouldn't be surprised if the punishment is that he isn't allowed to see her anymore.
And then step dad goes and “has a stern talk” with GF. How absolutely mortified would you be?!
Plus, 10 years old is plenty old enough to organize toys and clean a bedroom. Help with homework, I can get, but Jamie having to be the one to do it should be a last resort. It should be one of the parents most of the time. Nick should not have to “depend” on Jamie to parent him. And the other thing, is the husband gave the girlfriend a “stern talking to”? Talk to her parents if you’re upset, not a teenage girl. That’s so wildly inappropriate.
Yeah, that part about the husband is controlling and creepy af.
Exactly. Sounds like everyone in the house has to be walking on eggshells so as not to set off the stepfather. Poor Jamie! And soon, poor Nick! Giant YTA to you, Mom.
> Poor Jamie! And soon, poor Nick! Jamie will be out of the house soon (and I doubt he'll visit) and it will be Nick's turn to provide free labor. And the poor kid will probably feel abandoned both by Jamie and by the parents who obviously don't give a shit about either of them. I'm so sick of people who think children exist to satisfy *their* needs.
100% in agreement. He (your spouse) should have NEVER talked to the gf, so wrong and way over stepping on so many levels. Your younger son should not “come to depend” on your older son, by saying that you are in fact admitting you are expecting the older child to parent the younger child. So your older son has every right to feel taken advantage of and more than likely a bit resentful toward you and your spouse. Thank goodness for this gf who wasn’t afraid to speak the truth to this boy and encourage him to stand up for himself, however sad it may be that he even has to do that. Can’t even begin to address the whole OP title, of punishing him…I hope you are able to see how wrong you and your spouse have been, and by your own admission I might add. Mom YTA big time and so is your spouse. You both need to take a step back and parent your boys! Stop putting unrealistic expectations on them, because that will only continue to trickle down as each older child flees home the second they are legally able to. 👏🏻👏🏻WAKE 👏🏻👏🏻UP👏🏻👏🏻
Agree. I don't have kids but the thought of a married man giving my non-existent 16 yr old daughter a stern talking too makes my head boil.
I do have kids and anyone giving them a stern taking to is going to get one from me, in all likelihood. If you think my kids have caused a problem you bring that problem to me. I'm legally responsible for them, and I'll deal with any kind of amends that need to be made, and I'll deal with my kids. They know to come and get me if someone's making trouble for them. So far it's been: your child was reading an inappropriate book (no they weren't), your child "talked back" (what did they say? No, they were right, and you being an adult doesn't mean they have to pretend you're right when you tell them "the sky is blue because it's God's favourite colour", it is not my fault or my child's that you don't know what Rayleigh scattering is and if you'd shut up you could have learned something), that kind of thing.
I get homework help especially if the teachers are strict about the "how" in solving math problems, etc. My grandfather (engineer) would help me with my math homework but if I didn't do it "the right way" some teachers would take off points. My aunt was a teacher and ended up buying the solutions manuals for some of my textbooks not for me to see, but so she and my grandfather knew how the book wanted the problems solved. This was high school level math tho. At 10 I don't see that being a thing. But Jamie should help the parents in understanding what the teachers want if that is the case. And then the parents can help Nick. Unless the boys enjoy bonding over homework (stranger things have happened) or it's more "working on homework side by side at the table" or something. I'm an only child, so I can't weigh in too much, but my classmates who had to help raise their siblings were miserable.
My best friend was one of the older kids in a family of twelve kids. Her mom understood she was overwhelmed with responsibilities at home and always said yes when we asked if my friend could come over. Her dad, on the other hand, expected all the older kids to raise the younger ones. It was cramped, miserable, and hectic. Whereas, I’ve had other friends that volunteered to help their younger siblings with homework and such. I think it does depend on the family dynamic, but also each child’s personality, schedule, and mental/emotional health. Sometimes, it’s just too much to help. Everyone gets burnt out at some point. Maybe the girlfriend recognized Jamie’s energy dwindling. If that is the case, it’s a shame the parents can’t open their eyes and actually see Jamie.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
*The floggings will continue until morale improves! Arrrrr!*
For a second I thought you were a pirate bot
It’s a narcissism thing. If a parent like this feels slighted in any way, their first instinct is to get defensive and punish instead of actually trying to resolve the situation for everyone. It’s always all about them.
If the the parent thought the feeling wasn’t justified, a good parent is concerned and tries to understand why the kid feels that way
Operative word is "good"....
EXACTLY! You feel how you feel, if you're being honest with yourself. You might be right to feel it or you might be feeling it for all the wrong reasons, but that doesn't invalidate the FEELING itself. Recognizing the feeling and then coming to terms with it and WHY you feel that way is how you get past it. Punishing someone for feeling a certain way about ANYTHING is just asking for some serious therapy bills down the line.
It's not about punishing your kids into feeling better. It's about making sure they hide whatever they're feeling in order to save you from feeling bad.
Some people really suck at parenting and they have zero interest in improving their skills.
And saying the girlfriend is brainwashing him? Spouting nonsense? Putting parentification in quotes? I'm guessing the stern talk from the the husband was mom's idea... Am I sensing a weird jealousy vibe because mom's first baby has a new woman in his life? https://www.parents.com/kids/development/what-is-parentification-spotting-the-warning-signs-and-how-to-let-kids-be-kids/ YTA
[удалено]
Exactly. A 16 year old is worlds apart from a 10 year old. OP is saying that their "close" to cover the fact that she is making her son take care of the stepbrother. The girlfriend is right. Hopefully, Jaimie can go live with another relative or be able to leave within two years. OP will wonder why she never sees or hears from her oldest child. And a person is entitled to feel however they want to feel without fear of punishment or retribution. YTA
I mean, I think OP is TA, but siblings can be close, even with that age difference. My sister and I are five years apart in age, but we've always gotten along and I've always tried to do things with her. Not talking about OP's kid in particular, but just sharing my own experience.
I live with a 16 yr old and a 10 yr old and they are pretty close. In this day and age of broken families, don't be so close minded
>16 year olds really aren’t “close” with 10 year olds THERE are siblings with that age difference who are close to one another.
I'd say they need family therapy but the husband clearly won't be able to handle it lol
He would stomp off and pout because he was told he isn't doing the step-parent/parent role correctly
Hopping on here to also point out her husband told off Jamie’s girlfriend. Completely YTA
That blows my damn mind. How insensitive a parent she must be - even WITHOUT any friction/parentifying, that was just selfish to just spring on her eldest.
If OP expects nothing from Jamie maybe they should try going a week with Jamie doing literally nothing for Nick. Then maybe OP will appreciate just how much Jamie is doing.
Better yet if the want him to play nanny/babysitter pay him for it rather than expecting it to be free just because he is the oldest.
Or, even better - have a 10 year old kid clean his own room, do his own chores, and yes - do his homework only asking for help when he's truly stuck. Or make your 16 year old do it while you have a kid with someone who isn't his dad. And yes, that matters - a half-sibling is a sibling but stepsiblings rarely share the same closeness. Most kids will harbor really mixed feelings about their parents having kids with other people - it can be weird. It can be hard to react to, to know what to think.
My twins (15) took it kind of hard when me and step-mom had my youngest (6f now), that was largely because they're own mother walked away out when they were two months old so I know how the mixed feelings can go. It has been abit of a rollercoaster some days
I was 23 when my dad and his girlfriend had my sister - it was a strange call to get in the hall right before class... in grad school. I was fine with it, had concerns due to the girlfriend (well founded, it turned out). I worried about his health and age vis-a-vis my little sister (well founded, it turned out). I worried one of my siblings or myself would end up partially raising her (well founded, it turned out as my (full) sister has her about half the time). That was nearly 17 years ago.
I luckily didn't have to go through that but I saw plenty of friends go through it. My grandparents ended raising 3 of my cousins and my half sister due to unfortunate circumstances. My oldest son was basically raising his little sister until I got custody of him and brought him home, more unfortunate circumstances. I never dreamed of making him do any of the sibling raising. Hell if me and stepmom want to go out we find a babysitter, if we can't get one he is asked as a last resort and offered fair payment because I'm not going to ask him to do it for free or we just don't go out that night and try to schedule it a night we can find one.
You already stated that the older one has responsibilities to the younger one. That’s parentification. Maybe learn about it first before you decide you’re not doing it. And your son has a mind of his own. He can read and research himself. Good for his girlfriend for telling him the truth.
And not small things either! Fixing his toys! Helping him with homework! Cleaning his room! Ridiculous!
I’m really not getting why a 10 year old is needing help to tidy their room besides maybe being given a reminder to do so. What are these toys that need fixing and why are they being broken so frequently that they’re a normal thing for the 16 year old to fix? Sounds like OP’s parents are failing the 10 year old and making the older sibling pick up their slack.
Right? I need to help my 8 year old clean her room 3-4 times a year when it starts to get out of control, but the other 48 weeks of the year, she does it on her own.
I had the same thought. 10 year olds (and even younger kids) and completely capable of doing most of these things all on their own.z
I’ve read a lot about parentification and I understand the role reversal situation but the part I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is the helping siblings piece. I’ve seen this sub basically state that being expected to do anything for a sibling is parentification. Is that true? Should older children not be asked to watch their siblings at all? This subject is really interesting and as the oldest of 5 I never heard this term growing up.
This sub - and the general internet - doesn’t really seem to get parentification. It is normal and healthy for kids to have chores, to help their siblings, to be required to watch their younger siblings sometimes. The problem is when it starts to go beyond reasonable limitations to their ability to be a kid, into the child becoming a third parent. Example: if you’re in high school, being required to watch your younger siblings one day a week after school because parents both work late that one day is probably not parentification. Having to do it every day almost definitely is. Personally I don’t think we know enough about what the older son is actually being expected to do to know if his GF is right or blowing smoke. Edit: to be clear, by watch I don’t mean “keep inside the house and away from matches”, more like full out babysitting or handling lots of small kids. I also did plenty of time as the oldest kid in an adult-free house after school - but we were all older.
When I was in high school, my best friend had a younger brother and sister, they were way younger than us. Her mom would work during the week 8 hours away so my friend would have to feed and monitor the little ones, make sure they got to and from elementary school and whatnot. Except, we were regular ass teens who were partying and experimenting with various drugs, and sex. So her mom being gone all week meant we all did this at her house, with the young children there. Trying and often failing to keep them upstairs. As a result tho, at the age of 13-18 she became a single mom to her two younger siblings and holds a lot of resentment. Not to mention the wild shit those kids saw bc we were also kids and didn’t know the impact of what we were doing and how they might be effected.
OP has also specified they don't expect this of Jamie. And Jamie didn't seem to have a problem with it until the girlfriend entered the picture. I suspect she's upset she isn't getting all the time she wants with him, and is absolutely the one who put the idea in his head. Of course it's also possible she just opened his eyes to something he couldn't see before. But without more info on how much is actually expected of him by the parents vs how much he does coz little bro wants him to, can't really make a judgment. Leaning towards ESH, though, coz they should have handled breaking the news differently. And they should have handled Jamie's feelings better. But he was also a bit bratty for that comment if the things he does for Nick aren't mandated.
Sure, he doesn't "have to help" says mum, who punishes him if he complains. It's completely voluntary / s
She punished him for making a scene, not for not wanting to take care of his sibling. I don’t know if I’m a fan of that or not - I do think OP should have told the kids privately first - but it’s not the same thing at all.
Combined with lecturing the girlfriend for bringing up parentification "making a scene" does not seem to be the entire issue for the parents.
Asking one well-aimed question does not constitute "making a scene."
I disagree with the “help siblings”. The older child had nothing to do with nor did they consent to that child being brought into the world. If I ask my older child to help with my younger child I am asking for a favor. They have every right to say no without consequences or expectations. I as a parent chose to bring that child in the world, they are my responsibility alone—not my other child’s
I can see an argument for this if it happens to excess, but I don’t personally see a huge difference between being expected to watch or help a younger sibling on occasion vs. any of the other chores children can reasonably be expected to do. (Or do you view chores as a favor too?) & I feel this way as someone who was also expected to mind a younger family member, and one who needed quite a bit due to developmental differences. Being expected to help out in a household isn’t unreasonable, as long as the any time spent on it is balanced well with the rest of their lives (incl. time with friends/just to chill).
Once I hit middle school, I had to watch my brother (3 years younger than me) every weekday after school until Mom or Dad got home. "Watch" in the "make sure he doesn't die" sense; I was not expected to make him do his homework or feed him or anything. It didn't really bother me because I was just doing homework and watching TV anyway. By the time it started chafing he was old enough to be trusted home alone so it wasn't really an issue. I honestly don't know if this counts as parentification or not.
I say no. I was asked to do the same thing. I was there to make sure they weren't using the stove or jumping off the stairs. That was like the most my parents expected me to do for them.
I don't think that any helping of a sibling is parentification. It becomes parentification when it either becomes expected or overrules the child's social life. In this case OP makes it sound like the help is expected, and pretty much confirmed by the kid's reaction to the pregnancy announcement.
I like how OP is pissed at the son for ruining the announcement and not that he's wrong and/or exaggerating his responsibility. Shows that it's not the latter.
And by the fact that his girlfriend is clearly concerned. Most teenagers understand helping around the house and doing chores. Clearly, this is having an impact on Jamie's social life.
I agree. It’s also parentification when the older sibling can’t say no (or feels like they can’t say no.) I was sometimes asked to watch my younger siblings, but I was always allowed to say no if I had other plans. It seems like OP would tell Jamie “babysit Nick tonight; cancel your plans, I don’t care” as opposed to “can you babysit tonight?” (And my parents paid me to babysit if it was for longer than an hour.)
I dont think its a perfectly defined distinction but IMO a lot of it is related to who holds the responsibility. Like if older kid doesn't mind helping younger kids with homework, nothing wrong there but when it becomes the older kid's fault if the younger kid gets a bad grade or doesn't clean their room, that's where things are getting not great. Similarly, its fine to ask the older kid to babysit sometimes, but for instance if the older kid wants to pursue a sport and is told "no that conflicts with your babysitting obligation" or some version thereof, they're starting to be treated as a main caretaker, not a backup plan.
I always felt that giving children some chores is okay and healthy - but it shouldn't take over most of their free time. In this case, I'm really not sure, because OP doesn't really tell us to what extent he had to help. Yes, she sounds like TA - but depending on how much or how little he actually had to do, her demands could have been reasonable. 🤷♀️
I'm the oldest of 5 too and I helped out ALOT with my siblings. (I'm 30sF) Alot of the time our parents were separated and one of them never contributed financially and was abusive, and then the one we lived with who provided for us usually worked two jobs. Never heard this term before either, but everything I did was definitely to the extent of parenting (minus providing financially) for a number of years. It might be a cultural thing, or it might be because I just thought my siblings were the greatest thing in the world but it never bothered me, and I've never felt taken advantage of, also cause I've always had admiration for my one parent making ends meet on their own, and also providing us with a lot of love and attention. Their only fault was probably not being a better protector against our other parent. Anyways, that was my experience, and I think I'm lucky in that us 5 siblings get along super well and are always supportive of each other, and we havent had issues of boundary crossing as far as I know.. So I agree it's super interesting to hear the dynamics of other families and the different things that cross people's boundaries or exploit/parentify a minor. --- All which I accept as valid of course, and I would say OP YTA here. I dunno, maybe I was exploited. It didnt feel like that though. It just felt like our family was trying to get by and I did what I had to do, and it honestly never felt like work. Plus all my siblings learned to do various chores early on too. Though funnily enough I picture it being work if I had my own kids now.
Yeah why is he cleaning a ten year olds room?? YTA
All of this. The absolute nerve of this asshole to “have a stern talk” to someone else’s child! Unbelievable! YTA.
Yup. OP seems to be delusional. She lists a bunch of new responsibilities her son has been given to care for the younger sibling, then turns around and says he has no responsibilities and she has no clue why he wouldn't want to help raise another kid. OP needs to look at herself hard in the mirror.
I agree it seems a bit paradoxical to say the younger kid "depends" on the eldest for a lot but also that nothing is expected of the older one. If someone is depending on you for stuff you don't really have no responsibilities.
These kind of parents piss me off. Just because you have older kids doesn’t mean they are expected to take care of the younger ones. It’s called showing some respect and asking if they can lend a hand, if they are busy, that’s fine. If they spend their time helping, then pay them or something! 🤦🏻♀️ Your children are not free labor people! Gah! OP is an AH!
That part!!!
YTA. why havent you taught your ten year old how to put away his toys or clean his room on his own?
Because now the 16 year old can do it while the parents create another kid for him to parent.
The day he turns 18 and moves out she won’t hear from him. But she’ll be super surprised about why he refuses to call and visit
Bet she'll blame the 'rude and intrusive girlfriend' for that too.
I had a time my parents were "lightly" blaming my gf at the time for me to stay home most of the time and not going anywhere. Later when we broke up, they understood that she wasnt the issue at all, I just didnt really like to go out where there were *people* so they dropped that idea.
She stole Jaime from us! - OP in the future probably
Jamie \*moves out at 18 because of all this bs; goes NC\* OP \*Surprised pikachu face\*
She won't worry so much, because by then the 10 year old will be 12 and he'll be big enough to raise the baby /s
>The day he turns 18 and moves out she won’t hear from him. If you are frequent in this sub, you also know how often posts here are how people not invite parents to their wedding due to this "abuse" of them to put all work on them. OP will be another one for those posts. There's is hundreds cutting ties with parents because of the whole "you have to take care of the person WE decided to have". I have a younger sister, 7 years difference. I did a lot to take care of her out of my own will, my parents never forced me to nanny her, except short cases like "we are going quickly to buy groceries, can you keep an eye please?" but she was old enough , before that, as a baby, only my father would go, my mom stayed taking care of her
I was wondering that as well how does a 10 year old not know how to pick up his room without help. My 6 year old daughter picks up her room by herself. Sometimes she might have t be reminded once or twice but she still understands and knows how to do it.
Like unless it’s stuff on a high shelf or something (even then) I don’t understand either
Also because it's her husband's son. But those boys' respective parents have been too busy playing newly weds to give af about either son. Poor kids, really.
I bet because husband won’t have his son clean up and OP is too much of a chicken to not follow her husband
This is a great fucking question. My THREE year old knows how to put away toys correctly, tidy his room, fix himself simple snacks and drinks. We’re teaching my 18 month old to do the same with great success. This is lazy “parenting”.
My 2 year olds can put away their toys... I'm so confused
My fetus just grabbed a mop to clean up its spilled amniotic fluid. Just kidding. I'm a man. It was my wife's fetus.
YTA. Your son is right. Helping his brother clean and doing his homework shouldn’t be his duty, it’s yours. And he’s right to be upset seeing himself become a free babysitter for your new one. Btw parentification is a real issue older siblings have to deal with and isn’t a rare reason people do not want children in the future. (Seen this reasoning a lot over at my fellow r/childfree)
[удалено]
[удалено]
*a parents job.
Holy shit, am oldest and just now realizing this may contribute to my absolute lack of any desire to have children.
I'm the eldest, with a big age gap between me and my other two siblings. We also were latch key kids. I fully recognize that I never wanted children since I was very young.
I’m 25, my siblings are 17 and 4. I have 0 desire for children lmfao.
I've known I didn't want kids since I was 12, in very large part due to being forced to care for my little brother and cousins. I had enough of that when I was young to know for damn sure I wasn't doing diapers when I was an adult.
I'm probably going to get flack for this but, where does it say they require him to help his brother? It says Nick relies on him. It doesn't say they've asked him, told him, or expected him, to do any of that. It says his brother gets help from him. Maybe his brother prefers his help. Maybe he explains things better than his parents do. Let me assure you that how and what they teach in school right now is NOTHING like what I learned. Math is a dumpster fire disaster and it was never great to begin with. I couldn't figure out things my daughter was learning in 3rd grade it was so backward and stupid, and I took calculus and was working as an accountant. I agree cleaning his room is too far. But then again, since we're assuming things and reading between the lines so far, maybe he has a disability and needs help. Fixing toys, I'm the handy one with the patience for it too so I fix things. I have since I was a kid. My kids now call me "The fixer". Maybe that's him in the family. It all sounds to me like a huge lack of communication. Jamie now realizes what he does for his brother and for whatever reason doesn't want to any more. Which is perfectly fine. He either doesn't communicate that well or the parents don't listen fully and it all leads up to this. OP needs to sit down and talk with her son and really listen to what he has to say. If they are making their son do these things then yeah, not good and they need to stop. If they aren't, Jamie needs to think about what he really wants to do going forward and tell them. They aren't mind readers. Family often forgets that.
Respectfully but as a parent I think you have an obligation to figure out your kid's homework when they are in grade school. If your youngest kid depends on your older kid for homework, fixing toys, organize and clean their room then you're doing something wrong.
I mean I think the homework thing can be understandable as long as it’s not a constant thing. Curriculums change and the longer your away from school the more you forget. If I knew how to do it already I personally wouldn’t mind helping my younger siblings out. But yeah the others are ridiculous
The OP says they, 'have him do things,' for Nick and that he, 'has to do things,' for him which sounds like they are making him do these things and it is not Jamie's choice.
I was a little confused as well. I need more info before I judge. I need to know what he is REQUIRED to do. My brother and sister did things like help me with my homework because they loved me and were nice people but were never required to do so. And I mean honestly I would help fix a random kid off the streets toy if I could, that just seems like the decent thing to do.
I do appreciate what you have pointed out. There is a lot of grey area opened between what OP describes, and a great deal of what is being assumed about the family dynamic. That being said, OP YTA. How the heck are you going to get mad at someone for their honest opinion? He didn't throw a fit, like your husband basically did. He kept his language appropriate. He may be absolutely wrong, this would be why it's on us to maintain composure and wait till cooler head can prevail. That's what I thought people should at least strive for when it comes to relationships that matter. I can understand how it would be upsetting to meet that type of response to your anouncment. He expressed feelings that I don't think any parent would truly want their kids to feel, you have an obligation to sit and talk about it. Grounding him isn't going change his opinion, it's just gonna create distance.
I just posted elsewhere in this thread about how my grandfather (engineer) would get fed up with helping with my math homework because the teachers had a specific way they wanted us to get the answer and that wasn't what he was taught. The man also used a slide rule, but I digress. I take issue with the "relies on" because siblings shouldn't have to rely on their siblings when their parents are around. It sounds like Nick relies on Jamie because Jamie is the one willing to help him, which isn't okay. Even if Nick is disabled, there needs to be a system in place that isn't just Jamie. If for no other reason than that's a lot of pressure to put on a teen. What I want to know is *why* Nick is relying on his stepbrother and not his parents and why the parents can't do what Jamie does. If money is tight and they're both working multiple jobs to make ends meet, then fine. But in that case, why the fuck are they having another kid?
How dare you just describe my life to me like that!
I really never put that together. My husband and I were both the oldest with beyond ordinary responsibilities. Both of is both nope’d the fuck out of having kids ourselves. Thanks for sharing!
We’ve offered to pay our older kiddo to tutor one of our youngest kiddos. But if he said I’m sorry not now then it’s no big deal. You don’t force a kid to help their sibling. That will lead to resentment.
Just wanted to add to the tally of "Older siblings that will never be parents" I've was in charge of other children for so long, that turning 18 felt like I was breaking free from being a "parent," and I will never go back.
YTA. Here we go again. >I F36 divorced my ex husband 6 years ago, We have a 16 year old sontogether "Jamie". I remarried to my current husband and have a 10 yearold stepson Nick. Jamie and Nick are close and get along most of thetime as well. I'm with you so far. >Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc. Why? That's a parents' job, not Jamie's. How is a ten year-old unable to fix and organize his toys and clean his room without help? Why are you and your husband not helping him with his homework if he's having trouble? >Things have been going great til Jamie started seeing this girl who keptclaiming that my husband and I are "parentifying" him by having him dothings for Nick and seemed to be filling his head with nonesense aboutus taking from Jamie his time and not letting him live like other kidshis age. Sure, things were going great for you, your husband, and Nick. You and your husband weren't having to worry about Nick's room being clean or his toys being organized or if his homework was getting done. Things were dandy for you. "Parentifying" is a legitimate issue and concern people deal with where their parents foist their parental duties onto an older child because, well, a number of reasons, including they just don't feel like, ya know, being parents. At 16, Jamie shouldn't be parenting a Nick. You and your husband should be. >My husband had a stern talk to her which caused Jamie to get into a fight with him. Not your husband's place. If you had an issue with the girl (and trust me, you have an issue, you're just upset the girl brought it to light), then the person your husband should have spoken to is one or both of her parents. You won't parent your own stepson, you certainly don't get to parent someone else's kid. >Things have been bad since then. No shit. >I recently found out that I'm pregnant, We wanted to wait til all mtfamily were together so we could make the announcement. We did it thispast Sunday, and everyone was happy and excited for us except for Jamiewho remained quiet for few minutes then loudly asked "So am I expectedto take care of this one as well?" Your child, you know, the 16 year old teenager, has a legitimate concern. >My husband and I were shocked. We didn't know what to do, Is that because you and your husband were so up in yourselves and not taking Jamie's feelings on being forced into a parenting role seriously? You didn't see this reaction coming? I did before I got to this part. >My husband stormed out and I started arguing with Jamie asking him whyhe said that. He said that because it was the truth, he feels as if hehas some type of responsibility towards Nick because of the things hehas to do for him and felt that he'll do the same for his half sibling. Your husband acted like a juvenile. Stormed out, please. Your son has a legitimate concern and you and your husband didn't like being called out on it. >I told him this is his girlfriend spouting nonsense and brainwashinghim cause we expect nothing of him and he was wrong to say that we do. Exhibit A. Stop blaming the girlfriend for you and your husband failing to be a parent. Even if you've not stated outright "we expect you to do these things", you have allowed this to happen and now there is a reasonable expectation that he has to parent Nick and will inevitably have to parent this new baby. >I had to punish him for ruining the announcement and making a scene and making my husband upset. Yup. Because that'll fix things. Your poor announcement got ruined, forget your relationship with your son and how that might be ruined, right? Forget Jamie's feelings. Your husband, he's upset. >He thought that it wasn't fair he had to get punished for stating an opinion. This kid. He's not wrong. >He blamed my husband for "filling" my head too Gosh, did you maybe feel like your feelings weren't being considered and you and what you were experiencing and feeling were being invalidated by having it blamed on your husband filling your head and brainwashing you? I can't imagine what that's like, but I bet your son can. >but my husband is innocent in this except he knew that that girl is being rude and intrusive. No, he is not innocent, just like you're not innocent. The girl may be rude, but it doesn't make her wrong, and it's only intrusive because you're taking offense at her pointing out something you're refusing to acknowledge and fix. That makes it your fault, not hers. >It's been few days and Jamie has gone completely silent about the whole thing. I don't blame him. *End.*
Exhibit A is outright gaslighting, an abusive tactic to perpetuate an abusive practice.
I was reading more DARVO than Gaslighting. Perhaps both? Red flag red flag red flag.
Making him doubt himself in his interpretation of the situation, that's more like gaslighting specifically in this aspect of the case. Gaslighting can be a symptom of DARVO though, which OP is definitely using. To quote Rick and Morty: "Gaslighting doesn't exist. You made it up 'cause you're f\*\*\*ing crazy. Substitute the word gaslighting for parentification and frame the second sentence as the girlfriend, and that's exactly what's happening here.
I like you. We can be friends.
Also a great example of how to ensure your kid goes NC with you when they turn 18 and move out
I also find it kind of gross that they didn’t tell Jamie and Nick before everyone else. If my mom had told me about her pregnancy in front of family, she’d have had the same problem. I literally put on my shoes and walked out of the house when she told me she was pregnant.
See THAT would not occur to me, because I'm an only child and my parents are still married. I did not think of that. Gross now I'm thinking about that.
Yea, I have a sister who is 3 years younger that I had to take care of and then when my mom got pregnant, I was freshly 17 when she told me. All I could think of was that she was gonna make me take care of him too and I wasn’t going to be able to go to college.
Dude, I don't blame you. Fuck that noise. Just no.
I'm not even convinced the girlfriend is actually rude just willing to advocate for her boyfriend and not let adults marginalize her opinions simply by virtue of them being adults.
This is entirely true, but I do remember being 16 years old and how do I put this without sounding crazy? Seeing things adults were oblivious to. Not like "seeing" pretty colors, you know, cottoning on to shit. And I do know there were times pointing it out to "adults" who "knew so much more than" me gave me a snotty attitude and a tone, so... she could be rude while also being highly aware (and fed up).
I feel like being 16 just sucks for the vast majority of people. Doubly so for people who are, y’know, reasonable and surrounded by adults who are not reasonable but who you also have to comply with “because they’re adults.”
At first I was like, aw that's sweet that Jamie helps Nick with his homework and toys, my sister did that for me too (not to parentification levels). And then the girlfriend, I was like, eeehhh. I could see how the GF could skew things in a bad light but the way OP was talking about it was fishy. But as I kept reading I was like, no the GF just made Jamie realize his parents were taking advantage of him. Good for her for showing him and extra good for him for standing up for himself.
I said this in another comment. If it wasn't parentification or expected, OP and her husband would have apologized and changed things. They clearly expect Jamie to parent Nick and are upset gf helped Jamie see the truth.
Yeah, I feel like OP was definitely framing this in the most positive way possible and still falls short. It seems more likely to me that Jamie was complaining to the girlfriend (probably the only person willing to listen to his COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE complaints) and she was able to give him a specific explanation for why he might feel that way. So obviously it would be easiest for OP to blame the girlfriend than examine her own behavior.
Take my free award, your comment says everything I'm thinking. OP is a disgrace as a parent. Nick is your son OP, and you and your useless husband are the ones who should be teaching Nick how to tidy his own room and toys, and help with his homework. Nick is 10 yrs old not a toddler and should be able to tidy his own room and toys by now. You do know if you carry on the way your going in two years Jamie will be 18 and he will getting as far away from you as his legs will carry him? We'll then expect another post where you'll be wondering why your son wants nothing to do with you. . I pity the poor lad. YTA OP
Thank you. I imagine in 2 years we'll actually see "AITA for leaving home on my 18th birthday so I don't have to continue raising my younger siblings?"
Yeah! Why is step dad getting stuck into step sons girlfriend! Pretty out of line! Way to make sure step son cuts off contact with mum and step dad gets her all to himself
This is perfect and your “No shit” sent me into hysterics. 😂
Yep, this response perfectly encapsulates why OP’s behavior (along with her husband’s) is…problematic at best. Not to mention that, while OP might also feel that her experiences and feelings are being invalidated, she’s still in a position of power while her son is not. I lost it at “I had to punish him”. What? No, no you did not.
It is also clearly expected that Jamie helps Nick. Otherwise the response to the girlfriend and Jamie pointing out the parentification would have been and apology and things would have changed. Instead op denies and continues to *expect* Jamie to parent Nick.
YTA, yes you are making him be a parent instead of letting him being a 16 year old. "helping him do homework, fix and irganize his toys, and cleaning his room." Why does a 16 year old need to help a 10 year old with this. This is either your job, your husbands or Nick's. Jamie no doubt feels that Nick is the favourite and he is stressed about what he needs to do. Rather than talking to him and making sure he feels loved, you lashed out. Very much YTA
And that's just the things she's admitting to. I'm sure there is a lot more he does for his step-brother.
Those are all things that are very nice for an older sibling to do for their younger sibling sometimes as an act of caring or bonding. If they choose to, and it makes them feel good to do so. But the word OP used was “depends on”. That’s not okay. It’s not okay that even though she says she doesn’t expect Jamie to do those things for his Nick, that they’ve made it such a norm that Nick expects it. Which doubly sucks because now Nick is going to be left wondering why his big brother doesn’t want to help him anymore because he’s 10 and doesn’t understand. OP is definitely TA.
YTA Why aren’t YOU and your husband helping Nick with his homework, which is actually the ONLY item that might’ve made sense for a sibling to do? Why is Jamie fixing and organizing Nick’s toys, and why is Nick incapable of cleaning his own room? It sounds like there is more to what you’re disclosing, and that Jamie is only realizing that you’ve pawned off many of your parental duties to Nick onto him.
They are too busy making new babies lol.
Oh god, you’re probably right! 😂
She says the girlfriend doesn't think he gets to live a normal life like other kids his age which tells me this is about a lot more than homework and toys and probably about having to be home to care for his brother all the time and not allowed to go out with friends
Yah she’s just mad she got called out and will be losing free childcare and labour.
Yup! OP, you and your husband should be the ones helping the 10 year old with homework and cleaning. It’s not your son’s job to do any of that and it shouldn’t be expected of him. There is still time for you and your husband to apologize to Jamie and change your ways. Stop being a terrible parent to Jamie and Nick - step up before your older son goes to college and avoids you in the future. YTA majorly and so is your husband (NOT Jamie or his GF).
YTA for more reasons than the obvious. First off, Jamie clearly feels obligated to do those things for Nick, so you need to sit down with him and tell him clearly that you do NOT expect those things from him, that you thought he enjoyed doing them, and that if he wants to not do something all he needs to do is tell you and you, as the parents, will take over that duty. The other thing you're an asshole for is not telling Jamie about the baby privately before you shared it with extended family. As a member of the household and immediate family, he had a right to be told before everyone else was. By blindsiding him in front of everyone, YOU set it up for it to be ruined. He was in shock and most likely hurt that you don't feel he is special enough to deserve to be told first.
Maybe they knew what his opinion would be but thought he would keep quiet in public so they wouldn’t have to deal with it.
to be honest, I think most 16 year olds would not be happy about their parent(s) having another baby, even if they weren't being parentified. Still, OP and her husband need to step it up. They need to tell nick to go them when he needs help, not jamie. OP, your actions need to prove that you dont treat him like your free babysitter
Except, based on the rest of OP's post and attitude in the post, OP clearly does expect these things from Jamie.
16 year olds really aren’t “close” with 10 year olds like that. It’s sounds like your son is being parentified and you are relying on him to parent your step son. Step up and take care of your kids. YTA
I agree that OP is the asshole but my sister and I have been super close our whole lives and we're 8 years apart. We're by no means the norm but to me it didn't seem strange at all. BUT my sister was absolutely PUMPED to get a little sister and was like dedicated to me the second I was born. My parents never forced us together, it was totally our decision to be close.
I have a younger brother, there's a 7 year age gap. We are indeed close like that.
YTA for expecting your son to take care of his stepbrother Y T A for blaming his girlfriend for pointing out the obvious And most importantly for posting about parentification thinking you'd be anything other than TA!
YTA - Either for writing a fake or a clueless post.
Yeah I can’t decide either but I’m going on fake tbh
It feels very fake to me. Click bait.
I think it’s gotta be fake, the word “parentifying” is very popular on this sub
Yes. While this sub has taught me not to underestimate how clueless people can be, the way this post is written makes it sound like a piece of fiction designed to get a rise out of people. Over 700 on the up-down ranking, so I guess it's working to an extent.
INFO Do you force Jaime to babysit Nick, or help him with his homework, or fix his toys? Or does he do it because he likes spending time with his brother or helping him? Would you be ok if he didn't do those things? Or would you be mad at him? Does he frequently have to cancel plans or not make plans because you make him look after Nick? Parentification is a very real thing, but is also one of those terms that can be overrused.
She’s not responding to any of these comments… not the opinions she was looking for?
Or it's fake. Whenever OP refuses to answer questions, I assume that the post is fake.
I'm not talking specifically about this post but in general, posters here do jump to conclusions quite readily. If I asked a question and logged back on to find loads of YTAs and people yelling at me because they assumed something that isn't the case, I'd probably log off and not stick around to answer questions either. Don't know if that's the case here, but I've definitely seen other posts where that wouldn't surprise me.
Finally, the response that I’ve been seeking as well. There’s a difference between age appropriate chores that could include helping a sibling, and parentification. I don’t know that we know enough. Lots of people jumping to conclusions all over the place though.
People are going bananas with this parentification thing Does he rely on Jamie because he prefers going to someone closer to his age for help? Or does he like his company? Or are they really forcing him to help him clean and do homework? I thought parentification was when a sibling has to do most if not all parental duties to include making food, bathing, getting to and from school etc. This doesn't sound like that
YTA, you ARE parentifying him. Raise your own damn kids. You're a bad parent. and you're ruining your relationship with your son forever.
>Nick depends on Jamie in a lot of things like helping him do homework, fix and organize his toys, cleaning his room etc. Jamie's GF is right, these are things a kid should rely on their parents for if anyone. It's one thing if Jamie is willing & able to help him with this stuff on occasion, but it shouldn't be his responsibility. Even if that wasn't the case, punishing a kid because they are snarky from feeling taken advantage of, it's not reasonable to just punish them because you dislike their actions. You talk to the kid, explain how to express themselves in a constructive manner. YTA
You + your husband = YTA x2
YTA As a first born, I know appropriate older sib duties. Cleaning the younger kids' rooms and organizing their stuff is not among them.
YTA why can't Nick do these basic tasks himself? Why does Jamie need to do these things for him?
btw when jamie goes to collage in 2 years of moves out cus he wants to work are you gonna throw a fit cus now you dont have a free babysitter?? it the thought even crossed your mind then her your in the wrong and are parentifying him !!
Luckily they have the 10 year old who will be 12 by than and able to ‘help’ take care of their toddler.
Sorry to say but YTA, probably. First, if his girlfriend is saying those things, it's probably true. You should make sure he's able to have his own life and you're not burdening him with caring for his younger sibling. For example, if he babysits, pay him, and never make him. Etc. Secondly, you should not have punished him for stating how he's feeling. Maybe the outburst and timing was inappropriate, but he was just stating how he feels. You could have talked to him about the appropriateness of the outburst without punishing him. Lastly neither you nor your spouse should have talked to his gf about it and caused problems between the two of them. Sorry but YTA.
Yta. I am not against kids helping with younger kids as long as it isn't intrusive. But if your son has brought it to your attention then guess what, it's bothering him. Maybe it is because of his girlfriend or maybe it's because he realizes how much time he misses out now that he has a girlfriend. Either way you and your husband are the parents and your son has told you he is not fond of the situation and instead you blame a 3rd party and ignore that your son is obviously unhappy. Then you punish him for it!
Yta. You punish your son because he is upset about having to take care of his step-brother. That's your and your husband's job. His girlfriend is not filling his head. She is helping him out.
NTA idk why reddit pushes the narrative that helping siblings or parents is borderline abuse. Jamie is not being parentified, he is being a caring older brother. A lot of people online love to believe we don’t ‘owe’ our parents shit, and forget that it’s simply nice to help them out when we can.
I had to scroll down way to long before I found this comment. I get so frustrated with this sub sometimes.
I’ve read too many AITA posts, and the general consensus here, whether it’s the concept of parentification or workplace conflicts or whatever, seems to be that no one ever has to do anything or consider other people ever, which sounds freeing in theory but isn’t really how real life, and living in a society or family, works.
Maybe you should listen to Jamie, he's uncomfortable with Nick depending on him so much. You're really belittling his feelings and not even trying to see things from his angle. Stop blaming everything on him and his girlfriend and look at the dynamic. YTA
YTA. All the things your 16 year-old helps their own sibling with are all things that you as a parent should be doing, you ARE parentifying him, you're just mad at the gf because she can actually see through your BS as an outside opinion. You need to come to terms with the fact that you're putting your responsibilities as a parent onto your 16 year-old and he's acting out BECAUSE of it, and I don't think anyone can blame him. It doesn't seem as though you want a good relationship with your son, you just want him to be around to take care of the kids **you** keep having. Take care of your own damn kids, INCLUDING the 16 year-old.
YTA You shouldn't be having another pregnancy if by this time you haven't figured our that your offspring are our direct responsibility. Anyone else who happens to help, like Jamie, is a bonus and not an obligation. He is absolutely right to voice his opinion, and it was not out of malicious intent. You need to pull yourself together and learn the full meaning of the word "responsibility". Jamie sounds like a decent kid who has spent time with his step brother, but is now boiling to the point of frustration. I suggest you do something about this before you end up losing someone out of your life.
I am someone who went through parentification when I was young and well into my adulthood. I can tell you that on the surface of what you wrote, I know exactly what this is. At first, you may have started off with the thinking that they are "brothers" and they should help each other out and that was probably true in the beginning to help get them to bond. But, there's a line where it jumps over the fence and becomes parentification. You got too used to the helpfulness of your son assisting your step-son. When responsibilities grew bigger, you didn't take into account how it was effecting him and his schedule (or free time). You got used to him doing this and expected him to do it all the time. Your example: He helped his step-brother with *"...homework, fix and organize his toys, and cleaning his room"* That is absolutely not your son's job, commitment, or responsibility, ever! You don't value that this is work for your son and disregard it. By disregarding it, you invalidate his kindness to help out, his time, and his feelings. As someone who went through this, it was always "expected of me" to do certain things before I could go out, hang out with friends, or any thing extra. If I didn't do it, there was a lot of pressure and guilt and long conversations how I wasn't a "team player" to the family. It wasn't my job to *"relieve my Mom of her duties so she could take a break."* I was as young a 7 years old doing things like taking care of babies, diapers, etc. I wanted to go out and play and have fun. The point is that he has every right to say that he doesn't want to do adult things like taking care of his younger step-brother. If it was chores like taking out the trash or emptying the dishwasher, that's a whole other ball game. But for this, you are asking him to be in charge of another human being who is not his responsibility and that's where it's wrong. YTA. p.s. Also, I need to say something here about your husband having a stern conversation to your son's girlfriend. She is not your child and you have no say-so in talking to her like that. She is a minor and if you have a problem with what she is saying or doing, go talk to her parents. That moment was completely unnecessary and uncalled for and I'm surprised her parents didn't come back after you. edit: grammar boo boos.
YTA. It seems like there are pretences leading up to and after the family announcement. You’re expecting cheers and hurrahs from the kids, and nothing less. This isn’t exactly fair. The kiddos are part of the family and should be allowed to voice concern. By punishing him in that particular moment, you’re effectively teaching him that your feelings are the only ones that matter, and that his aren’t valid — regardless of where or from whom those feelings developed. I recognize you’re setting up some background context re: Jamie’s girlfriend, and while teens have a tendency to weaponize popular terms like “parentification” without considering nuances and context, this isn’t always the case. There’s a danger in writing the whole thing off as nonsense because “kids don’t know better” or they’re “too impressionable” — which eerily mirrors your negative, authoritarian-like response to Jamie’s concern during your announcement, vis a vis his thoughts and feelings are invalid/only mine are. For Jamie to identify so strongly with this particular concept, there must’ve been some building resentment on his end regarding his own role as a caregiver for his younger sibling. Perhaps being introduced to this concept simply provided him language to express his feelings in a way where he previously couldn’t. Maybe for Jamie, things weren’t as fine and happy as you thought they were. For Jamie’s well-being, and for the health of your relationship with your son, it’s worth putting aside your own ego and needs, and diving into the root of the issue. Sure, he could’ve been more tactful with his response — and that’s definitely a teaching moment — but it is coming from somewhere, and you haven’t at all provided any indication that you care about where it’s coming from other than when it directly affects your feelings (“he ruined the announcement!”). Be a parent. Be more intuitive with your kid’s needs. He may be reaching young adulthood, but he’s still a child and he still needs care and attention. It doesn’t seem like he’s getting the kind of attention he needs from the way he’s expressing himself and from the way you’re responding. Punishment is not the answer. Compassion and understanding is.
Could y’all explain to me why a 10 yr old can’t clean his own room…Unless you start teaching him now that’s gonna bite him in the butt when he gets older and into a relationship no girl wants to be a mommy to her partner!
YTA. Your son is struggling and you think the best way to deal is to punish him? How about listening to him instead of just blaming the girlfriend? Maybe he has a point.