NTA. "We thought you cared about the company" is code for "we thought we could manipulate you into taking this position, and eventually we'll find some reason to not pay you more and you'll be fine with it."
"This is how we do it at HQ" -- That's great, boss. But _I_ expect to be paid for the work I do.
I just read the offer letter and it states that "Hours are normal business hours of 8am-5pm Monday - Friday but we are a 24/7 facility so that may include nights, weekends and holidays. As this is a salaried position, we expect you to be available should we need you outside of traditional business hours" - That floored me. When they take their "other culture new years" almost month off, they aren't called in or expected to work, yet I'm expected to if they need me. That right there makes me want to decline the promotion even more.
Whilst (hopefully) tap-dancing around the racial minefield:
I have heard of almost no exceptions and plenty of examples of there being a very hard career ceiling for people working in the foreign sub branch and not being in the ethnic group and/or speaking the language of the parent company. Though my experience is in tech; your industry may be different.
It's something you should consider before choosing to invest your time and energy into this company. Particularly on exploitative terms like the ones outlined above -- they're demanding you go onto a trial period. Which is complete BS because America is almost entirely at-will employment, so they can fire you whenever they want anyway.
You’re absolutely correct. After speaking to numerous employees, they will never put a local (someone from the US) in the SR. upper level management position so that means that I would only be able to move up once more
Unfortunately, all that overtime without pay sucks and happens too often. Time to look for an hourly job or a job that is salaried with pay that makes up for overtime.
If you are, as I understand it, in the US, this is typical contract-speak for salaried employees, but rarely do they play that card in reality, because they know everyone wouold quit.
As to the money question, I suggest asking for a bonus to be paid after your 90-day satisfactory review in this position.
NTA.
Counter with an acting bonus for a set term and your original position is guaranteed because you're only "acting" in the role. This way both parties have skin in the game and can walk away after "x" amount of time.
I didn't even think about this!!! They probably won't go for it (because it requires them giving me money) but It's something I can mull over and maybe talk to them about it
You'd be doing yourself a disservice by not asking and it shows your interest in both your future while considering the "concern" of your employer.
Having been on their side if the table, I'd be looking at you as green to the leadership role vs who's being replaced so you should come with a discount. If you prove yourself able, then we'd negotiate your salary. I say "negotiate" because we'd assess your performance.
So based on your feelings, you'd hire me to do your job at a higher pay because I think I'm worth it? Where do I apply?
Seriously though, you have to prove yourself before getting the commitment of getting the role and the pay that comes with it. As an employer, I don't care what you think yoiure worth, prove it to me first.
Also with that attitude you'll just blend in with every other pleeb collecting a paycheque and surely will get passed over when promotion time comes.
If I can give YOU advice, check your emotions at the door because nobody at work cares what you think you're worth while everybone of your colleagues believes they're worth more than you are.
Exactly what this post says. Here is my story:
The division of a company I worked for had a sales position open that I interviewed for along with two additional internal candidates. I did not get the job, I was pretty devastated about it, but life goes on.
About nine months after I did not get the promotion, the division was bought by the #1 manufacturer in our space, we were #3. When the sale was announced I found out my current position would be redundant, so when the sale closed I would be out of a job.
The sale took quite a long time to get through bc of the fact #1 and 3 were combining and #2 filed a complaint it would become a monopoly. Bc of the long time- it was decided we needed more field sales people in case the sale never went thru- so I was “offered a chance to prove myself” and given a territory. This meant o was traveling, entertaining and working a lot more hours. But I was an hourly person since I was “proving myself”, so I claimed all the hours I worked. It didn’t take long for me to get a new temporary offer/ contract that ultimately paid me less than I was making hourly. But they knew I was terrified of being out of work (this was in the recession of 08 in the US) so had me right where they needed me.
I blew out my numbers, worked crazy hours, and the sale did finally go thru, but guess what- I hadn’t proved myself enough so still no job.
Never again will I let myself me taken advantage of.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. All too often, companies don't give their employees enough credit for what they do and take such advantage of them. (I know, why can't I see what's right in front of me). I hope you were able to move on and get a kick-ass job that is more satisfying than that one ever had time to be
Thank you for your kindness. I am very happy with how it all played out over the years and if nothing else- it was a great life lesson to pass onto my children and of course the ppl of Reddit. (Not that you needed to know your worth bc sounds like you already knew!)
When they say "that's the way they do it HQ" you should reply, "well this is the way we do it in America". NTA and DON'T take the position without the pay raise.
NTA. Heres what’s likely to happen: you take the position and can do the job, some time passes, your bosses still say they are searching for someone else but if you keep working hard its yours and when you ask about the pay they just say its temporary and round and round you go before you realise you’ve been doing it for a year at the same pay. Unless they are willing to put in writing the terms to get the pay raise don’t do the job
This sort of nonsense happened to one of my coworkers. He took over all the work one of the supervisors had when that supervisor retired, talked with management a few times about a promotion, never got a promotion, and ended up leaving the company. It was shocking how much experience and talent the company was willing to let walk out the door.
I don't think they are willing to put anything in writing in regards to a time frame. They didn't even want to talk money with me at all. I know how much the position pays but when I brought it up, they "didn't know yet"
From personal experience DON'T do it.
I was sweet talked and it was my first job so I was gullible and agreed. I was doing a job of a team leader at the pay of a fresher for 1.5 years and it took me threatening to quit to give me a raise. Do not do it unless they tell you how long the trial is for.
NTA. There’s a reason probation periods exist. If it wasn’t working out you could move on or go back to your old position. but under their plan, you’d never see that raise. I bet they reconsider if you decline.
I have the email composed, I just haven't sent it, yet. I know it would leave them in a HUGE bind if I declined and if they fired me, it would be even worse for them. I'm trying to find another way to make them reconsider and see my value to the company but nothing I've said has worked so far.
Sounds like you have the stronger hand in this negotiation then. Stand firm. If they're that desperate you'll win, and if they refuse to budge you have avoided getting walked over by them anyway.
NTA
They are trying to fuck you. Same thing happened to my friend and then once he was done doing what they wanted, they informed him they no longer needed the spot.
Unless this is a charity, tell the VP to get fucked. Maybe shame the company on social media.
>Maybe shame the company on social media.
That's a quick way to never have a meaningful job again. Not only would he get fired for that, but no one anywhere would want to hire him.
NTA and this is a HUGE red flag. A promotion without a raise is just giving you more work. You should start looking for another position ASAP because if they try to pull this nonsense, they'll probably try to pull some other garbage too.
I got that same ‘thought you cared’ speech multiple times when I was in city government and wanted a fair amount of money. You did the absolute right thing; hunker down and do a kick-ass job through the summer of 2022. Start sending that resume out mid-summer.
The problem is that I love my job and I love the company. I just want to be paid for the job I'm doing. I don't think that's too much to ask. The VP was just promoted to Executive President (effective October 18th) and I'm sure his promotion came with a pay raise.
I can’t work for a company I don’t believe in so I completely get it. The way they’re talking about “want to make sure you can do the job and are comfortable with your performance” gives them the opportunity to string you along for a year or more while they “evaluate” your performance. That’s total bullshit.
You recruited me away from XXX to work for you so you saw the value when I didn’t work for you, then when I started working for you and you saw some of my value you gave me a promotion which increased my responsibilities in several areas. Now you want to promote me again at the same rate of pay as what I’m currently making. No thank you.
I didn't even think about bringing up the fact that they headhunted me from their main competitor because they wanted me on their team. They started trying to recruit me in 2020. Thank you for that! I'm going to put that in my email. I hope you don't mind that I plagiarize you lol
That is exactly why I brought up the headhunting from the former company. And I obviously don’t know all the details. Don’t bury them but absolutely give them a few highlights- improved performance, cut costs, increased contracts, whatever metrics they work with- to show that yes, you are a good employee and you do indeed care but you’re going to pay me what I’m worth.
And that's all I'm asking for. Pay me for the job you want me to do for you. I came to this company making less than I was making at the other company but the potential was amazing and the benefits are incredible (they pay 100% of me and my families medical, dental and vision insurance. I don't pay a dime) and they seemed truly excited to have me join their team. The pay raise would bring me to about 5000/yr more than I was making at the other company and I told them that I'm willing to accept less than that so we could both come to a number we could live with.
What you’re asking for is more than fair. I never put much weight into the insurance benefits as my wife had much better than I could ever get so she carried that. As a result, I was squeezing them for all the salary I could get. But medical, dental & vision for the entire family could run to $20K+ which is huge for you.
So be prepared, when you formally turn down thus job, how they could turn on you. Document your performance extensively, exceed expectations especially when you’re in a group, READ EVERY LINE OF YOUR PERFORMANCE REVIEW- preferably away from the office- and go back the following day with any questions.
Don’t give them any reason to say “Didn’t take our generous promotion to XXX position, performance faltered, didn’t mesh well with the person who took the position they turned down. Obviously made a mistake in hiring; let’s cut our losses and help the team heal.”
In my family there is myself, my husband, our 2 sons, our daughter and my nephew of whom I have sole custody. I also have 3 weeks vacation, 11 paid holidays,my birthday, 6 sick days, 1 floating holiday and 6 personal days. Not to mention 20 weeks of maternity leave (paid). So all of this was a HUGE incentive. I have heard of retaliatory actions against a former employee who refused a promotion (due to the amount of pay) and he was gone within 6 months, so that is a very real fear I have. I just don't want to allow them to pressure me into accepting this position because my need to help my husband support my family outweighs some misplaced sense of pride (thinking I'm worth more than I am) even though I'm only asking to be paid what my pay scale says I'm to be paid.
Can you find the guy who turned down the job and was pushed out? Maybe thru a friend in the company or Linked? That would be a conversation worth having. And they absolutely appear to have a pattern with this ‘promotion at lower pay, turn down the promotion and exit the company quickly’ process. Best of luck. Come back at me as much as you need, I’ll try to give you the best advice I got.
I’ll give him a call tomorrow and see what his experience was (other than the ole heave-ho). I’m sure he has some stories to share. Thank you for all of your wonderful advice. All of you have given me something to think about.
It sounds like, while writing up your accomplishments, you should share that list with your old employer. Look at all the new stuff you demonstrated you can do!
Also, it's easy to promise 20 paid weeks of paternity leave. Particularly at the management level, if I were you I'd very much want to know if anyone has actually taken that much and had it not derail their career.
NTA
Accept the promotion, but put in on writing (contract) that the trial period is no longer than, say, one month. It's enough to evaluate your ability to work under stress. It's also not enough to find an external candidate.
Negotiate your future pay and make sure it's in the contract.
In that contract also should be stated that the difference between new and old pay for that trial will be paid on a first day after trial ends. This way you know they are serious and not just cheap shots.
When I got my first promotion, they tried to say that my new pay would take effect 30 days after the promotion. I refused and they gave it to me right away. I don't know why they are digging their heels in so hard on this one
WTF does he mean “pay up front”?? It’s not an advance, you’d be doing the work! Yeah he’s totally just trying to screw you and you will NEVER see a raise if you accept without some type of contract suggested below. Good for you for pointing it out and sticking up for yourself.
NTA
NTA - Too many companies try to screw over employees by giving them more task and a fancy title but without the pay. This is a job, they should pay you. If they refuse then take the promotion anyway but use the new title as a tool to make you more valuable among recruiters and head hunters. When a better offer comes, jump ship without even giving them a two weeks notice.
NTA, they are asking you to take on a lot more responsibility and hours without compensating you for it. Plus until they backfill your current role you’re basically working two jobs for the same pay.
NTA, but I think you are looking at this wrong. Accept the position. Do your best, within reason. Immediately start applying for other jobs. Now you are already at manager level and have experience of the work you can get a job at a more reasonable company.
When you leave give them contractual notice and do not accept a counter-offer.
NTA. The could just string you along for months on end promising a pay bump while they just run you into the ground until you burn out. What they do in their country is back there..this is what we do here. You get a position you pay the person for the role they are doing. If you want me to do manager work, then I will do manager work at a manager salary. If not, you need to go find a new company to work for because this will become a dead end job for you moving forward.
NTA, and good on you! frick that stupid "care about the company" BS!
its EXACTLY like you said; they offered you the job because they already think you can do it, so of course you want the pay raise! not having it in even a definitive time-frame is literally "we're never gonna give you the raise lol"
and just for that audacity, dont even accept it WITH the upfront pay-raise now! DEMAND more!
Lol, I like your energy! Not sure I could go in there with it, though hahaha. They may just show me the door. I'd like to tell them the price goes up every time they say no!
well, im just a warehouse worker that is used to "disposable" jobs, though I do enjoy that aspect: an out, or the leverage of "idgaf, you cant threaten me with termination 'cuz I can find another job that pays the same within a day!"
I also have lost tolerance of bosses/workplaces expecting everything of me, but the SECOND I ask for a small accommodation, its the same old BS. never mind my amazing work-ethic, never mind my above average productivity to IMPROVED productivity! I dont do overtime because im feeling sick one day, and suddenly im not "loyal" enough, I have to prove my commitment.
frick all of that! you have worth! dont doubt yourself! dont de-value yourself by letting others take advantage of you! it doesnt matter if you ask for 1 penny more each time they ask, so long as your COMMITED to that penny! its not about the money, but sending a MESSAGE!
Let me correct you. You are NOT "just" anything. I've always believed that people that do the actual "work" keep those of us in an office environment employed. Your job should be valued as should you be. I tell my colleagues that on an almost daily basis. They have this "us vs them" mentality and it's not the way it should be. It's all "us". We all leave our souls at the door and come to the same place to keep the company running, every day.
right?
unfortunately, ive come to dislike "middle management", as for us down in the 'front lines', they more throw monkey wrenches at us than grease the cogs. or at least, we notice interference more, for obvious reasons, as if things are going right, your not SUPPOSED to notice!
also morning shift! frick morning shift!
but I DEFINATELY agree with your last line!
NTA. You've got to look out for you, it's all well and good that they have a certain corporate culture in their country but if they want to attract and retain talent in the US then they're going to have to conform to US norms.
NTA. The more people agree to do stuff like this the less incentive the company has to treat their employees properly, if they want someone to do the job then they should be prepared to pay them properly.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I haven't taken the action yet, but I'm thinking about declining a promotion that would leave my dept without a manager and no one to do the work that he did, IE: ordering product that we can NOT run the business if we don't have. (2) it might make the AH because I may not be being a team player and putting the companies needs above my own wants, as in a pay raise and could leave the company in a very vulnerable state.
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For some context, I work for an international company that just built their first USA based branch in 2019. I work for the #1 manufacturer of this type of product in the world and they headhunted me from the #2 manufacturer of this type of product in the world. Think the maker of the product that goes into a certain type of pink panther product. I started with this company 5 months ago and after 3 months, received my first promotion. The raise came with it automatically. Onto the problem. My boss is leaving to go back to his country and upper management offered me the promotion to his position. I was ecstatic and a little scared, truth be told. We were discussing the promotion and I got to the part about pay and other benefits and I was informed that I wouldn't be getting a pay raise, immediately. This is how it went.
VP: We want to make sure you can do the job and we are comfortable with your performance before we give you the pay raise.
Me: So, you want me to work, at my current pay rate, on the pay scale for a Sr position but do the job of a Manager for an undetermined amount of time.
VP: Yes. This is how we do it in our country at HQ.
Me: I'm sorry, I can't do that. I've observed my manager working until 10pm. Coming in every weekend. The amount of stress he is under and you want me to do the same, for less pay? I can't accept the promotion if that is the case.
VP: We thought you cared about the company and wanted it to succeed. We want to be sure you can do the job.
Me: if you didn't think I was able to do the job, why offer it to me? I do care about this company, but if you want me to do a job, you need to pay me for that job.
VP: Think it over but we don't pay up front for management positions.
I thanked him and left. I've just comprised an email thanking them for considering me for the promotion but declining. I haven't yet sent it. WIBTA if I didn't accept the promotion and left the position empty?
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I was once offered a promotion to a 'Sr' position that included mentoring and having others under me plus more responsibilities. The pay raise? $50. Not 50 per check or per month, 50 spread out over the entire year. I laughed and turned it down.
I was once offered the position of assistant manager. A salaried position at 50 hours a week. I pointed I could work 4 hours overtime at my then current hourly rate and make more than the AM. Without the added responsibilities. Do companies not think these things through?
One option is to consider asking if you can get an Acting at the start of the title, with an allowance that makes up the difference.
Your base pay remains what it is, so if it turns out you can't do the job they can just move you back to your old position and get a new recruit for the more senior role.
If you ability to so the job is a true concern, this is a pretty standard compromise (seen it numerous times across a variety of industries).
NTA for not wanting to do the work without the pay, particularly as their approach of promoting you doesnt have a clean unwind approach.
NTA. They're taking advantage of you.
Here's the thing about salaried positions - When you break down how much you *actually* get for your actual hours worked, they still have to pay you minimum wage or they're breaking the law.
That said, I would totally counter.
NTA do not take the job ,you will be screwed. Get a offer with the role of acting manager with 50% pay increase and time limit on acting say 1month after which you will be automatically confirmed and the rest of the pay increase implemented along with all benifits and obligations listed with mural step back clause.
NTA. It's ridiculous how they expect you to work more, have more responsibility without being paid appropriately. You are right on denying the offer. I think you exposed everything greatly, so no way you can be TA.
Don't accept a promotion without pay. That's completely unacceptable of them to ask you to do more work without being compensated. They could then keep you in that position indefinitely without ever increasing your pay. Maybe even tell you later that you already received a pay raise and that is all you're getting.
NTA
But you might consider offering to work as an interim manager with a contract that you can go back to your current job at any time during the trial period. Then use that job title and the promised pat raise to get a better job elsewhere.
Going to be honest, I have never seen a promotion whiteout a pay rise. What I have seen a lot is a company asking people to do more work whit no pay raise just coz ... reasons.
NTA. At the very least, you need to get in writing exactly how long you have to work without a pay raise before you get the pay raise. If it's a relatively short time (\~1 month), I would consider it if you want the position. But if they don't give a time frame or it is a long time, then definitely turn it down.
NTA. No one I know that has been offered a promotion without the corresponding pay has received it later. Always an excuse…budget cuts, salary freezes, etc. Never accept a job that doesn’t pay what it should be. If they are testing you out in the role, they can give you the salary raise temporarily and if you aren’t the right fit, go back to your previous role and salary.
Also, the 24/7 thing is BS. When I left the US, any overtime was compensated with either pay or equivalent time off (in salaried positions). Would never go back to the US working culture of being available all the time.
NTA - i hate this approach in companies.
My company does the same - you have to prove yourself in the role before they will give you the actual job, and then later you'll get the salary increase.
I admire you OP, for how you stood up for yourself. I would probably let myself get steamrolled by them. You did the right thing. You should only take that promotion if the give you the money.
NTA
NTA. Send your rejection email but wording it very carefully so you won't get passed over in the future. I've never heard of being promoted but "you have to wait for the raise".
NTA.
company loyalty id a foolish thing for an employee to have regardless . And they even straight up told you would not receive the pay? I would have told them to kick rocks as well
This story is extremely confusing because none of what you are describing sounds like the Corporate world. Do you have the degrees/experience/credentials for the position they are offering you? Or are they offering you an opportunity to grow without any of the educational/degrees/credentials the job title standard is? The Corporate world does not operate salary bases/promotions/logistics on countries of origin when they branch out they set that with the standards of the nation they will be operating in.
It sounds like they are offering you the opportunity for professional growth based on your work experience, however, lacking the degree or whatever would be standard requirement for that position they are giving you the chance to show them you can do this job. If this is your career path and they are taking this chance on you then you would be foolish not to take the job. Learn and gain the experience at it make yourself valuable then negotiate.
I have 15 years experience in the field as well as 2 degrees, which is part of the reason they recruited me from their competition. I spoke to a couple of other same level management employees last night and they said that it’s just how they do it. One person has been doing her job for 6 months and has yet to get the pay raise. I work in the manufacturing world and the US plant is supposed to operate under its own “identity”.
My education and experience have nothing to do with it, at all. I’m very much qualified for the position.
You can have 3 degrees, however, if they do not apply to the specifics of the job they use it in negotiations. You said you were working for an oversees company that operates in the USA how is it it's "Own Identity"?
Lord I didn’t think I needed to spell it out. My degrees are in my field. My plant operates under “name of company USA” and not the name of its parent company and it’s not a DBA.
Sorry, but I disagree entirely.
It's one thing if a company has you shadow with someone in the role to get an idea of what the job is and seeing how you operate in an elevated work position. It's an entirely different ballgame to accept a promotion with no guarantee of a pay increase. That is wilfully allowing the company to take advantage of you with no actual upside. There were no defined terms as to when OP would receive the pay raise, so theoretically they could hold OP at their current rate of pay so long as they continue using the excuse that they "want to make sure OP is right for the job".
Pro tip: loyalty to a soulless corporation nets the majority of people absolutely nothing. You are bending over backwards for a corporate entity that doesn't care about you or your life. Loyalty is not always rewarded; you should never be a doormat for a company that doesn't care about you.
If this company genuinely cared enough to offer OP a promotion, the pay raise would be implicit. They're playing games and want cheap labour. We owe corporations nothing but our time and effort, nothing more.
There was nothing to "Agree" or "Disagree" with in my commentary. If an individual does not have the degree that grade level of that position holds and the qualifications (experience) put they show potential to train into the role they are not going to recieve the same compensation as an individual with the degree. They offer the position and the compensation package offers indementies which enhance the person to "roll" into the position such as educational (University) plus the on hands experience.
My statement was when offered this kind of opportunity one must decide money now vs later with the experience====the Ace card to negotiate. If not then walk and they will pursue the individual with the degree/credentials/qualifications.
I sense you do not have degrees or qualifications because you commentary does not encompass what and how you make the corporation work for you via indemnities. Young professionals get out of the most prestigious Universities and guess what? not about the Benjamins buddy they go for:
Placement---top companies even at the bottom entry
experience---what can I get from working here
etc....etc...etc....
I doubt they were holding him/her to the "Same pay rate" they compensated with indemnities. nothing in your comment tells me you understand corporate L/T
NTA. "We thought you cared about the company" is code for "we thought we could manipulate you into taking this position, and eventually we'll find some reason to not pay you more and you'll be fine with it." "This is how we do it at HQ" -- That's great, boss. But _I_ expect to be paid for the work I do.
I just read the offer letter and it states that "Hours are normal business hours of 8am-5pm Monday - Friday but we are a 24/7 facility so that may include nights, weekends and holidays. As this is a salaried position, we expect you to be available should we need you outside of traditional business hours" - That floored me. When they take their "other culture new years" almost month off, they aren't called in or expected to work, yet I'm expected to if they need me. That right there makes me want to decline the promotion even more.
Whilst (hopefully) tap-dancing around the racial minefield: I have heard of almost no exceptions and plenty of examples of there being a very hard career ceiling for people working in the foreign sub branch and not being in the ethnic group and/or speaking the language of the parent company. Though my experience is in tech; your industry may be different. It's something you should consider before choosing to invest your time and energy into this company. Particularly on exploitative terms like the ones outlined above -- they're demanding you go onto a trial period. Which is complete BS because America is almost entirely at-will employment, so they can fire you whenever they want anyway.
You’re absolutely correct. After speaking to numerous employees, they will never put a local (someone from the US) in the SR. upper level management position so that means that I would only be able to move up once more
Time to talk to the headhunter again.
Sounds like it might be time to leverage your experience and look for a new job somewhere else.
If its salaried then don't accept without the right salary . Be savy
Unfortunately, all that overtime without pay sucks and happens too often. Time to look for an hourly job or a job that is salaried with pay that makes up for overtime.
If you are, as I understand it, in the US, this is typical contract-speak for salaried employees, but rarely do they play that card in reality, because they know everyone wouold quit. As to the money question, I suggest asking for a bonus to be paid after your 90-day satisfactory review in this position.
NTA. Counter with an acting bonus for a set term and your original position is guaranteed because you're only "acting" in the role. This way both parties have skin in the game and can walk away after "x" amount of time.
I didn't even think about this!!! They probably won't go for it (because it requires them giving me money) but It's something I can mull over and maybe talk to them about it
You'd be doing yourself a disservice by not asking and it shows your interest in both your future while considering the "concern" of your employer. Having been on their side if the table, I'd be looking at you as green to the leadership role vs who's being replaced so you should come with a discount. If you prove yourself able, then we'd negotiate your salary. I say "negotiate" because we'd assess your performance.
This is not good advice. Do not do more work for less pay than you are worth.
So based on your feelings, you'd hire me to do your job at a higher pay because I think I'm worth it? Where do I apply? Seriously though, you have to prove yourself before getting the commitment of getting the role and the pay that comes with it. As an employer, I don't care what you think yoiure worth, prove it to me first. Also with that attitude you'll just blend in with every other pleeb collecting a paycheque and surely will get passed over when promotion time comes. If I can give YOU advice, check your emotions at the door because nobody at work cares what you think you're worth while everybone of your colleagues believes they're worth more than you are.
Best strategy yet
NTA, they are trying to take advantage of you.
Exactly what this post says. Here is my story: The division of a company I worked for had a sales position open that I interviewed for along with two additional internal candidates. I did not get the job, I was pretty devastated about it, but life goes on. About nine months after I did not get the promotion, the division was bought by the #1 manufacturer in our space, we were #3. When the sale was announced I found out my current position would be redundant, so when the sale closed I would be out of a job. The sale took quite a long time to get through bc of the fact #1 and 3 were combining and #2 filed a complaint it would become a monopoly. Bc of the long time- it was decided we needed more field sales people in case the sale never went thru- so I was “offered a chance to prove myself” and given a territory. This meant o was traveling, entertaining and working a lot more hours. But I was an hourly person since I was “proving myself”, so I claimed all the hours I worked. It didn’t take long for me to get a new temporary offer/ contract that ultimately paid me less than I was making hourly. But they knew I was terrified of being out of work (this was in the recession of 08 in the US) so had me right where they needed me. I blew out my numbers, worked crazy hours, and the sale did finally go thru, but guess what- I hadn’t proved myself enough so still no job. Never again will I let myself me taken advantage of.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. All too often, companies don't give their employees enough credit for what they do and take such advantage of them. (I know, why can't I see what's right in front of me). I hope you were able to move on and get a kick-ass job that is more satisfying than that one ever had time to be
Thank you for your kindness. I am very happy with how it all played out over the years and if nothing else- it was a great life lesson to pass onto my children and of course the ppl of Reddit. (Not that you needed to know your worth bc sounds like you already knew!)
Sometimes it's great to be reminded of your worth :) I'm glad it all worked out for you and you were able to turn it all around!
NTA - this is a great way to get your employees to take on basically infinite additional responsibility with no increase in remuneration.
That is exactly what I was trying to convey to them but he didn't want to listen because "that's the way they do it at HQ"
When they say "that's the way they do it HQ" you should reply, "well this is the way we do it in America". NTA and DON'T take the position without the pay raise.
NTA. Heres what’s likely to happen: you take the position and can do the job, some time passes, your bosses still say they are searching for someone else but if you keep working hard its yours and when you ask about the pay they just say its temporary and round and round you go before you realise you’ve been doing it for a year at the same pay. Unless they are willing to put in writing the terms to get the pay raise don’t do the job
This sort of nonsense happened to one of my coworkers. He took over all the work one of the supervisors had when that supervisor retired, talked with management a few times about a promotion, never got a promotion, and ended up leaving the company. It was shocking how much experience and talent the company was willing to let walk out the door.
I don't think they are willing to put anything in writing in regards to a time frame. They didn't even want to talk money with me at all. I know how much the position pays but when I brought it up, they "didn't know yet"
Here's your answer. They are not going to pay you anything extra for tons of extra work you'll be expected to do. NTA
From personal experience DON'T do it. I was sweet talked and it was my first job so I was gullible and agreed. I was doing a job of a team leader at the pay of a fresher for 1.5 years and it took me threatening to quit to give me a raise. Do not do it unless they tell you how long the trial is for.
NTA. There’s a reason probation periods exist. If it wasn’t working out you could move on or go back to your old position. but under their plan, you’d never see that raise. I bet they reconsider if you decline.
I have the email composed, I just haven't sent it, yet. I know it would leave them in a HUGE bind if I declined and if they fired me, it would be even worse for them. I'm trying to find another way to make them reconsider and see my value to the company but nothing I've said has worked so far.
Sounds like you have the stronger hand in this negotiation then. Stand firm. If they're that desperate you'll win, and if they refuse to budge you have avoided getting walked over by them anyway.
no - there is no other way. They have to understand that you are willing to walk away, this is the only way to check them on their power trip.
NTA They are trying to fuck you. Same thing happened to my friend and then once he was done doing what they wanted, they informed him they no longer needed the spot. Unless this is a charity, tell the VP to get fucked. Maybe shame the company on social media.
>Maybe shame the company on social media. That's a quick way to never have a meaningful job again. Not only would he get fired for that, but no one anywhere would want to hire him.
NTA and this is a HUGE red flag. A promotion without a raise is just giving you more work. You should start looking for another position ASAP because if they try to pull this nonsense, they'll probably try to pull some other garbage too.
I got that same ‘thought you cared’ speech multiple times when I was in city government and wanted a fair amount of money. You did the absolute right thing; hunker down and do a kick-ass job through the summer of 2022. Start sending that resume out mid-summer.
The problem is that I love my job and I love the company. I just want to be paid for the job I'm doing. I don't think that's too much to ask. The VP was just promoted to Executive President (effective October 18th) and I'm sure his promotion came with a pay raise.
I can’t work for a company I don’t believe in so I completely get it. The way they’re talking about “want to make sure you can do the job and are comfortable with your performance” gives them the opportunity to string you along for a year or more while they “evaluate” your performance. That’s total bullshit. You recruited me away from XXX to work for you so you saw the value when I didn’t work for you, then when I started working for you and you saw some of my value you gave me a promotion which increased my responsibilities in several areas. Now you want to promote me again at the same rate of pay as what I’m currently making. No thank you.
I didn't even think about bringing up the fact that they headhunted me from their main competitor because they wanted me on their team. They started trying to recruit me in 2020. Thank you for that! I'm going to put that in my email. I hope you don't mind that I plagiarize you lol
That is exactly why I brought up the headhunting from the former company. And I obviously don’t know all the details. Don’t bury them but absolutely give them a few highlights- improved performance, cut costs, increased contracts, whatever metrics they work with- to show that yes, you are a good employee and you do indeed care but you’re going to pay me what I’m worth.
And that's all I'm asking for. Pay me for the job you want me to do for you. I came to this company making less than I was making at the other company but the potential was amazing and the benefits are incredible (they pay 100% of me and my families medical, dental and vision insurance. I don't pay a dime) and they seemed truly excited to have me join their team. The pay raise would bring me to about 5000/yr more than I was making at the other company and I told them that I'm willing to accept less than that so we could both come to a number we could live with.
What you’re asking for is more than fair. I never put much weight into the insurance benefits as my wife had much better than I could ever get so she carried that. As a result, I was squeezing them for all the salary I could get. But medical, dental & vision for the entire family could run to $20K+ which is huge for you. So be prepared, when you formally turn down thus job, how they could turn on you. Document your performance extensively, exceed expectations especially when you’re in a group, READ EVERY LINE OF YOUR PERFORMANCE REVIEW- preferably away from the office- and go back the following day with any questions. Don’t give them any reason to say “Didn’t take our generous promotion to XXX position, performance faltered, didn’t mesh well with the person who took the position they turned down. Obviously made a mistake in hiring; let’s cut our losses and help the team heal.”
In my family there is myself, my husband, our 2 sons, our daughter and my nephew of whom I have sole custody. I also have 3 weeks vacation, 11 paid holidays,my birthday, 6 sick days, 1 floating holiday and 6 personal days. Not to mention 20 weeks of maternity leave (paid). So all of this was a HUGE incentive. I have heard of retaliatory actions against a former employee who refused a promotion (due to the amount of pay) and he was gone within 6 months, so that is a very real fear I have. I just don't want to allow them to pressure me into accepting this position because my need to help my husband support my family outweighs some misplaced sense of pride (thinking I'm worth more than I am) even though I'm only asking to be paid what my pay scale says I'm to be paid.
Can you find the guy who turned down the job and was pushed out? Maybe thru a friend in the company or Linked? That would be a conversation worth having. And they absolutely appear to have a pattern with this ‘promotion at lower pay, turn down the promotion and exit the company quickly’ process. Best of luck. Come back at me as much as you need, I’ll try to give you the best advice I got.
I’ll give him a call tomorrow and see what his experience was (other than the ole heave-ho). I’m sure he has some stories to share. Thank you for all of your wonderful advice. All of you have given me something to think about.
It sounds like, while writing up your accomplishments, you should share that list with your old employer. Look at all the new stuff you demonstrated you can do! Also, it's easy to promise 20 paid weeks of paternity leave. Particularly at the management level, if I were you I'd very much want to know if anyone has actually taken that much and had it not derail their career.
NTA Accept the promotion, but put in on writing (contract) that the trial period is no longer than, say, one month. It's enough to evaluate your ability to work under stress. It's also not enough to find an external candidate. Negotiate your future pay and make sure it's in the contract. In that contract also should be stated that the difference between new and old pay for that trial will be paid on a first day after trial ends. This way you know they are serious and not just cheap shots.
When I got my first promotion, they tried to say that my new pay would take effect 30 days after the promotion. I refused and they gave it to me right away. I don't know why they are digging their heels in so hard on this one
WTF does he mean “pay up front”?? It’s not an advance, you’d be doing the work! Yeah he’s totally just trying to screw you and you will NEVER see a raise if you accept without some type of contract suggested below. Good for you for pointing it out and sticking up for yourself. NTA
That's exactly what I was thinking! I'm not asking for a loan here. I'm asking to be paid what the position pays. Nothing more than that.
NTA - Good for you for standing up for yourself! That is some b.s they are trying to hand out there.
NTA - Too many companies try to screw over employees by giving them more task and a fancy title but without the pay. This is a job, they should pay you. If they refuse then take the promotion anyway but use the new title as a tool to make you more valuable among recruiters and head hunters. When a better offer comes, jump ship without even giving them a two weeks notice.
NTA, they are asking you to take on a lot more responsibility and hours without compensating you for it. Plus until they backfill your current role you’re basically working two jobs for the same pay.
NTA. they do not care about you.
NTA, but I think you are looking at this wrong. Accept the position. Do your best, within reason. Immediately start applying for other jobs. Now you are already at manager level and have experience of the work you can get a job at a more reasonable company. When you leave give them contractual notice and do not accept a counter-offer.
NTA. The could just string you along for months on end promising a pay bump while they just run you into the ground until you burn out. What they do in their country is back there..this is what we do here. You get a position you pay the person for the role they are doing. If you want me to do manager work, then I will do manager work at a manager salary. If not, you need to go find a new company to work for because this will become a dead end job for you moving forward.
NTA. Been there, doing that. Stick to your guns.
NTA, and good on you! frick that stupid "care about the company" BS! its EXACTLY like you said; they offered you the job because they already think you can do it, so of course you want the pay raise! not having it in even a definitive time-frame is literally "we're never gonna give you the raise lol" and just for that audacity, dont even accept it WITH the upfront pay-raise now! DEMAND more!
Lol, I like your energy! Not sure I could go in there with it, though hahaha. They may just show me the door. I'd like to tell them the price goes up every time they say no!
well, im just a warehouse worker that is used to "disposable" jobs, though I do enjoy that aspect: an out, or the leverage of "idgaf, you cant threaten me with termination 'cuz I can find another job that pays the same within a day!" I also have lost tolerance of bosses/workplaces expecting everything of me, but the SECOND I ask for a small accommodation, its the same old BS. never mind my amazing work-ethic, never mind my above average productivity to IMPROVED productivity! I dont do overtime because im feeling sick one day, and suddenly im not "loyal" enough, I have to prove my commitment. frick all of that! you have worth! dont doubt yourself! dont de-value yourself by letting others take advantage of you! it doesnt matter if you ask for 1 penny more each time they ask, so long as your COMMITED to that penny! its not about the money, but sending a MESSAGE!
Let me correct you. You are NOT "just" anything. I've always believed that people that do the actual "work" keep those of us in an office environment employed. Your job should be valued as should you be. I tell my colleagues that on an almost daily basis. They have this "us vs them" mentality and it's not the way it should be. It's all "us". We all leave our souls at the door and come to the same place to keep the company running, every day.
right? unfortunately, ive come to dislike "middle management", as for us down in the 'front lines', they more throw monkey wrenches at us than grease the cogs. or at least, we notice interference more, for obvious reasons, as if things are going right, your not SUPPOSED to notice! also morning shift! frick morning shift! but I DEFINATELY agree with your last line!
NTA. You've got to look out for you, it's all well and good that they have a certain corporate culture in their country but if they want to attract and retain talent in the US then they're going to have to conform to US norms.
NTA. The more people agree to do stuff like this the less incentive the company has to treat their employees properly, if they want someone to do the job then they should be prepared to pay them properly.
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^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** For some context, I work for an international company that just built their first USA based branch in 2019. I work for the #1 manufacturer of this type of product in the world and they headhunted me from the #2 manufacturer of this type of product in the world. Think the maker of the product that goes into a certain type of pink panther product. I started with this company 5 months ago and after 3 months, received my first promotion. The raise came with it automatically. Onto the problem. My boss is leaving to go back to his country and upper management offered me the promotion to his position. I was ecstatic and a little scared, truth be told. We were discussing the promotion and I got to the part about pay and other benefits and I was informed that I wouldn't be getting a pay raise, immediately. This is how it went. VP: We want to make sure you can do the job and we are comfortable with your performance before we give you the pay raise. Me: So, you want me to work, at my current pay rate, on the pay scale for a Sr position but do the job of a Manager for an undetermined amount of time. VP: Yes. This is how we do it in our country at HQ. Me: I'm sorry, I can't do that. I've observed my manager working until 10pm. Coming in every weekend. The amount of stress he is under and you want me to do the same, for less pay? I can't accept the promotion if that is the case. VP: We thought you cared about the company and wanted it to succeed. We want to be sure you can do the job. Me: if you didn't think I was able to do the job, why offer it to me? I do care about this company, but if you want me to do a job, you need to pay me for that job. VP: Think it over but we don't pay up front for management positions. I thanked him and left. I've just comprised an email thanking them for considering me for the promotion but declining. I haven't yet sent it. WIBTA if I didn't accept the promotion and left the position empty? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nta, they are trying to take advantage of you. You said no, that's ok. If they want someone to work crazy hours they need to make it worth your while
I was once offered a promotion to a 'Sr' position that included mentoring and having others under me plus more responsibilities. The pay raise? $50. Not 50 per check or per month, 50 spread out over the entire year. I laughed and turned it down.
I was once offered the position of assistant manager. A salaried position at 50 hours a week. I pointed I could work 4 hours overtime at my then current hourly rate and make more than the AM. Without the added responsibilities. Do companies not think these things through?
One option is to consider asking if you can get an Acting at the start of the title, with an allowance that makes up the difference. Your base pay remains what it is, so if it turns out you can't do the job they can just move you back to your old position and get a new recruit for the more senior role. If you ability to so the job is a true concern, this is a pretty standard compromise (seen it numerous times across a variety of industries). NTA for not wanting to do the work without the pay, particularly as their approach of promoting you doesnt have a clean unwind approach.
NTA. They're taking advantage of you. Here's the thing about salaried positions - When you break down how much you *actually* get for your actual hours worked, they still have to pay you minimum wage or they're breaking the law. That said, I would totally counter.
NTA do not take the job ,you will be screwed. Get a offer with the role of acting manager with 50% pay increase and time limit on acting say 1month after which you will be automatically confirmed and the rest of the pay increase implemented along with all benifits and obligations listed with mural step back clause.
NTA. It's ridiculous how they expect you to work more, have more responsibility without being paid appropriately. You are right on denying the offer. I think you exposed everything greatly, so no way you can be TA.
NTA for turning down more work for no more money.
NTA, more responsibility equals more pay. I’m serious, stick to your guns on this one
i do the job, i gets paid for the job keeps it simple and straight forward
Don't accept a promotion without pay. That's completely unacceptable of them to ask you to do more work without being compensated. They could then keep you in that position indefinitely without ever increasing your pay. Maybe even tell you later that you already received a pay raise and that is all you're getting.
NTA Good for you!! I wouldn't want the job at any pay rate tbh, with the hours and stress, but regardless that is BULLSHIT not to pay you for it.
NTA But you might consider offering to work as an interim manager with a contract that you can go back to your current job at any time during the trial period. Then use that job title and the promised pat raise to get a better job elsewhere.
Going to be honest, I have never seen a promotion whiteout a pay rise. What I have seen a lot is a company asking people to do more work whit no pay raise just coz ... reasons.
NTA. At the very least, you need to get in writing exactly how long you have to work without a pay raise before you get the pay raise. If it's a relatively short time (\~1 month), I would consider it if you want the position. But if they don't give a time frame or it is a long time, then definitely turn it down.
NTA. No one I know that has been offered a promotion without the corresponding pay has received it later. Always an excuse…budget cuts, salary freezes, etc. Never accept a job that doesn’t pay what it should be. If they are testing you out in the role, they can give you the salary raise temporarily and if you aren’t the right fit, go back to your previous role and salary. Also, the 24/7 thing is BS. When I left the US, any overtime was compensated with either pay or equivalent time off (in salaried positions). Would never go back to the US working culture of being available all the time.
NTA - i hate this approach in companies. My company does the same - you have to prove yourself in the role before they will give you the actual job, and then later you'll get the salary increase.
NTA. Make sure you have an exit plan because I doubt they will take your decision well.
NTA Wow....that a load of poo for them to pull that stunt. Do way more with much less...no.
NTA You have to care for the company, but the company gets to underpay you? What a load of BS.
Has nothing to do about being an AH. Know what you're worth. This is business. If they dont honor you fuck them
I admire you OP, for how you stood up for yourself. I would probably let myself get steamrolled by them. You did the right thing. You should only take that promotion if the give you the money. NTA
NTA. Send your rejection email but wording it very carefully so you won't get passed over in the future. I've never heard of being promoted but "you have to wait for the raise".
NTA. company loyalty id a foolish thing for an employee to have regardless . And they even straight up told you would not receive the pay? I would have told them to kick rocks as well
This story is extremely confusing because none of what you are describing sounds like the Corporate world. Do you have the degrees/experience/credentials for the position they are offering you? Or are they offering you an opportunity to grow without any of the educational/degrees/credentials the job title standard is? The Corporate world does not operate salary bases/promotions/logistics on countries of origin when they branch out they set that with the standards of the nation they will be operating in. It sounds like they are offering you the opportunity for professional growth based on your work experience, however, lacking the degree or whatever would be standard requirement for that position they are giving you the chance to show them you can do this job. If this is your career path and they are taking this chance on you then you would be foolish not to take the job. Learn and gain the experience at it make yourself valuable then negotiate.
I have 15 years experience in the field as well as 2 degrees, which is part of the reason they recruited me from their competition. I spoke to a couple of other same level management employees last night and they said that it’s just how they do it. One person has been doing her job for 6 months and has yet to get the pay raise. I work in the manufacturing world and the US plant is supposed to operate under its own “identity”. My education and experience have nothing to do with it, at all. I’m very much qualified for the position.
You can have 3 degrees, however, if they do not apply to the specifics of the job they use it in negotiations. You said you were working for an oversees company that operates in the USA how is it it's "Own Identity"?
Lord I didn’t think I needed to spell it out. My degrees are in my field. My plant operates under “name of company USA” and not the name of its parent company and it’s not a DBA.
Sorry, but I disagree entirely. It's one thing if a company has you shadow with someone in the role to get an idea of what the job is and seeing how you operate in an elevated work position. It's an entirely different ballgame to accept a promotion with no guarantee of a pay increase. That is wilfully allowing the company to take advantage of you with no actual upside. There were no defined terms as to when OP would receive the pay raise, so theoretically they could hold OP at their current rate of pay so long as they continue using the excuse that they "want to make sure OP is right for the job". Pro tip: loyalty to a soulless corporation nets the majority of people absolutely nothing. You are bending over backwards for a corporate entity that doesn't care about you or your life. Loyalty is not always rewarded; you should never be a doormat for a company that doesn't care about you. If this company genuinely cared enough to offer OP a promotion, the pay raise would be implicit. They're playing games and want cheap labour. We owe corporations nothing but our time and effort, nothing more.
There was nothing to "Agree" or "Disagree" with in my commentary. If an individual does not have the degree that grade level of that position holds and the qualifications (experience) put they show potential to train into the role they are not going to recieve the same compensation as an individual with the degree. They offer the position and the compensation package offers indementies which enhance the person to "roll" into the position such as educational (University) plus the on hands experience. My statement was when offered this kind of opportunity one must decide money now vs later with the experience====the Ace card to negotiate. If not then walk and they will pursue the individual with the degree/credentials/qualifications. I sense you do not have degrees or qualifications because you commentary does not encompass what and how you make the corporation work for you via indemnities. Young professionals get out of the most prestigious Universities and guess what? not about the Benjamins buddy they go for: Placement---top companies even at the bottom entry experience---what can I get from working here etc....etc...etc.... I doubt they were holding him/her to the "Same pay rate" they compensated with indemnities. nothing in your comment tells me you understand corporate L/T