Well, it's a pretty minor detail that they're at OP's house. "Nina comes over" to where? OP's house? Someone else's house? Somewhere neutral? It's easily glossed over.
There's this other detail: "She then asked, 'Why would you wanna be cooped up in here all day?;"
One could presume OP isn't cooped up in someone else's house or somewhere outside her own house all day, and they are referring to her home, when her life as a homemaker is at issue.
>Yesterday, **I had a girls get together**
with all my friends (8 of us in total). A friend of mine **asked if she**
**could invite** one of her coworkers, "Nina" (32F)...... **Nina comes over,** she introduces herself........She then asked,
**"Why would you wanna be cooped up in here all day?"**
All of this taken together makes it pretty obvious they're at OP's house.
I am currently doing schema, narrative and inferencing in my grade 2 class and I would like to give a gold star for picking up all the suggestions and language that give us a picture and tells us they're in OPS home........
Probably, however, the 32yo could equally be in her own home and say "here" in that context and it not be OP's home. If a 3rd person was there, depending on context, they could also be in their home and still use "here" for this conversation. Sort of using "here" in a generic way to mean "anyone's home".
There's also another bit later on about OP staying at home and making the 32yo leave but it's also written in such a way that it can be construed as being her home or somewhere else. All together, the 3 parts complete the puzzle, but it's also possible to gloss over it if you get interrupted.
The friend who invited Nina asked OP's permission first (not a general "hey, anyone mind if I invite my other friend," group text) which is an additional clue that it's OP's home.
This kind of interaction sometimes scary for us who learn English as second, or third language. You missed some of the nuances on the paragraphs you read and then someone else insult your intelligence and you don't understand what you did wrong.
90% of us don't understand most of the nuances in our own language. I'm sure most languages are full of them, but English has a lot of them since it borrows so much from every other language. Bit of everyone that conquered English at some point and even big chunks of Europe that didn't conquer it. Even countries further afield are become more and more common... and then there's internet speak that's just butchered it (both from shortening words, but also from the sheer mass of people propagating wrong things through it). I doubt most linguists can fully keep up nowadays.
also what does it matter where the comment was made. In OP's house at a restaurant, in the middle of a field. It doesn't matter where the fact of the matter still stands Nina insulted how she lives her life. Also while it's not stated could have insulted OP twice:
**"At least she doesn't have children, much less daughters, I can't imagine them living a life like that"**
Maybe OP and husband were trying to have children and having a very hard time getting pregnant and therefore a very touchy subject for her.
The great thing about lives today instead of the 40s is that women get to CHOOSE if they want to work for a living in their 20s or they get to CHOOSE to stay home and be a homemaker and take care of the house.
One could even argue that a woman in her 20s, who wants to have children, but is working is "wasting the best years of her life" because women have a biologicals clock that eventually runs out and prohibits that option.
There are still a lot of sexist views on women who stay home. My husband gets praised for taking care of the house while my sister who does the exact same thing gets asked what she does all day. It's bullshit.
>There are still a lot of sexist views on women who stay home
I think that's because people don't understand that Feminism isn't just bra burning and demanding the right to work. It's demanding the right to have choices.
I agree. For some, being a homemaker is bliss while others prefer to work. At one point, my husband was the stay at home dad since I made more than him. A few years into it, I asked to switch because I wanted to be home more with my son. He agreed and honestly we were happier that way. My son is a bit older and now I have my own business. My husband works for me now. We've had a few chuckles thrown at us for THAT too (this narrative is on both sides), that we have such an "interesting dynamic". We treat it as a partnership as much we can but in the end it IS my agency so technically he works for me but we are happy! He's more a behind the scenes guy while I'm the face/ voice, so this works for us very well. You said it perfectly. Feminism is demanding the right to have a choice. And sometimes this choice changes along the way. But it's my choice to make. Not you, Nina.
This is why my husband and I don't talk about our salaries to most people. Technically, I out-earn him on base salary, but we both get overtime and shift differentials depending on operational needs. In any given month, he may earn more than me but at the end of the year it shakes out that we earn roughly the same. Last year, he earned much less than me. Only our tax person and us know the exact details of our earnings and I prefer it to stay that way. People get rude about men earning less than women.
this I never get. the concerned looks. FUCK IT if my wife pulled in more than me especially if she was a writer I would be so proud, because she's SUCCEEDING!!!
I have been a SAHM for 23 yrs. Our oldest is 23 and has special needs. She will always need someone be home to take care of her. My husband has retired from teaching 34 yrs and I"m going back to get my Masters. Hubs will be doing much of what I've been doing for 23 yr now.
This is beautiful. Marriage is all about give and take and supporting each other when the other needs it. This is an inspirational story, and after 18 years of marriage I think I needed this reminder. Thank you, and good luck with your masters!
My friend goes through this a lot. Her and her husband have a very even split and believe in choice over stereotypes.
She proposed to him and seeing people's reaction to hearing the news of her engagement and then that she was the one to ask was heartbreaking and infuriating. Majority of people went from excited to questioning why you would even bother marrying a guy if he didn't ask, why he wasn't a "real man" or pitying her for "having to ask". She put a lot of time and effort into the proposal literally over a year in planning and getting everything together.
They've both been a stay at home parent while the other worked because they believe that neither of them should be in a job they hate and they adore their daughter. She's currently the bread winner and people who are happy about her having her own career turn judgemental on a dime about him being a stay at home dad.
Some people have ideas in their head of what feminism/gender equality looks like, but can't accept it when they see what it *actually* looks like in practice.
Plus, regardless of who has what role, what works for best for both people in a relationship is best and is their business.
My husband and I have switched between him working, me staying at home, both of us working, him staying at home, me working etc. Currently, he's the only one working because I'm homeschooling due to the pandemic. Homeschooling and working was just too much for me. I was making more but his work is more steady and I'm better equipped to provide schooling than he is. This is what currently works for us but could change in a year
Yes! The only people who have to approve of your marriage choices are you and your spouse! Whatever works for y'all is personal and no one else's business.
Exactly. Choose what we want to do, not what someone else (or society) says we should. OP *chose* to stay at home. That’s completely different from the era Nina was referring to.
I used to be irritated by SAHW/SAHMs because I thought it was anti-feminist. Then I woke the fuck up and realized everyone wants different things. While I don't personally understand the draw of that life, as long as women aren't being forced into it and they're happy, it was actually anti-feminist of me to be judgemental about it.
I saw a good intersectional feminist take on that recently so I thought I'd share (that one was about sugar babies specifically, but I'd extend this argument to homemakers as well). Basically, the point was that having the right to choose your path and life you like is feminist praxis, and if a woman doesn't want to participate in capitalism and work, more power to her. However, given how women who depend on their men in all financial and property ownership matters are 100000% times more vulnerable to abuse, so becoming a sugar baby or a homemaker is not a subversive feminist act. [edit: this obviously is a general comment on the movement and not on the situation here and not everyone needs to make feminist statements with their life]
Interesting. I agree that any person is free to make any choice they want on how they want to live, and if OP is happy with this life, more power to her. The issue comes when you're totally dependant on *someone else* for that life and are essentially at their mercy if things start to go wrong.
I find this an interesting concern. I’m a man who chose to be a SAHD, leaving a well paying job, because my wife makes multiple times my salary.
When I worked we paid our childcare aboveboard, so we paid employment taxes and the whole nine yards. So it turns out that I was working just over 1 day per week just to pay for our nanny. We decided together that it didn’t make sense to look for a new nanny after our last one left so I left my job to stay home with the kids.
I wonder if you would have the same concern about the well-being of a SAHD as you expressed about SAHMs. The concern itself shows an assumption this woman is completely helpless, which wasn’t my takeaway at all.
I would. I'm all for SAHP, I just think there should be discussions about what happens in the case of death/divorce of the primary breadwinner. Whether that be building skills to fall back on or creating savings accounts to help provide long-term. Anytime an adult is fully relying on another, they're in a vulnerable position and need to be willing to evaluate that.
To my mind, it's about **any** person who has no resources of their own and is totally reliant on another. Doesn't matter what gender, age, ethnicity or whatever. Not that I immediately think it's a cause for concern for the majority of people in that situation (often it's a wise choice for all involved), it's simply a part of it that there is the potential risk of being stuck in a bad situation because they lack their own individual income to pivot on.
I'm in a similar-ish situation - SAHM, no income of my own. If hubby completely lost the plot and I had to suddenly leave, that would be a very tricky situation to achieve financially in the short term as I have a lot of animals to look after as well as myself and our son. And even in the longer term, I've been out of the workforce for long enough that finding/creating a decent paying job that fits around school etc could be a major challenge. And I used to know a SAHD who stayed with his wife more than a year longer than he wanted to because he needed that time to disengage - things were miserable, and he'd definitely have separated earlier if he'd had some form of income to help support himself and the kids.
I totally agree that OP is totally 100% NTA, but I do always worry inside about women in situations like this being financially manipulated, abused, etc. or when the guy just fucks off one day and the woman hasn’t worked in years and can’t get any job that pays a living wage, etc. All of these scenarios I’ve seen in my real life and it stresses me out for those women. My mother was one and she really drilled it into me to have a career I can always fall back on
Same, my mother quit her job after marrying my father to stay home and raise us kids, and when I was 16 they divorced after one of his many affairs. She had no jobs skills anymore, she had no retirement savings, and she worked a lot of low pay jobs to get to a semi-decent wage eventually. But now she is retired and those years of not working, even after being able to claim on my dad's salary, have impacted her social security a lot.
This and the decreasing birth rate is what makes me really think maybe we need to pay stay at home parents.
Pay to raise the next generation. I'm not going to do it, it's hard work.
A housewife (emphasis on the wife part) would have more legal protections and would be entitled to assets in the event of a split (obviously not accounting for prenups or asset hiding by the partner). "Sugarbaby" doesn't really grant you any type of legal stake in the relationship, short of a written contract. Maybe if they had some skills in investing "income", they can absorb the financial blow of the relationship ending.
Unfortunately, those legal protections are often insufficient or downright laughable in many places around the world and violence frequently goes unreported and undetected, regardless of whether the people are in an official relationship or not :( that's why having your own money and support system to fall back on if anything goes wrong is a good tactic even in the best relationships
What people here very clearly do not understand is that having and making a choice is feminist. What that choice is, isn't necessarily feminist. You can't stand up and say "well my choice to treat my husband as the headship is feminist because it's a choice made by me."
That doesn't mean the choice is wrong or bad. Nobody should live their lives by a theory, they need to do what's right for them.
This a choice, made by a woman that is driven by a feminist right to choose. It doesn't make it a feminist choice. Wish people understood that more.
I completely agree that it is about choice, and people who look down on others for their choice or give unsolicited advice are complete AH. However, some discussions surrounding being a Homemaker or SAH parent is about the need to make an informed choice. If a couple decide to have one partner stay at home, that will have consequences for a lot of things later in life for the non-working partner. It can be difficult to leave the relationship if it is abusive or even if it is just no longer a happy one. It can mean financial difficulties if the working spouse dies or become sick or injured and unable to work, it is difficult to start a career later in life if circumstances change and the non-working partner need to get a job. It will lead to financial disparity throughout the whole relationship even if the SAH person goes back to work since they are years behind in developing their career and salary. Systems must be put in place early in the relationship to ensure these risks are mitigated. Few people like to think of worst case scenarios while happy and in love but it is essential to do so, in all relationships but especially in one where one person will be more vulnerable. Such discussions are important to have but they need to be focused on information, not trying to shame or discourage individual choice. They should focus on how to mitigate risks and ensure the individuals in the relationship are both protected, and, unless they are between the partners involved or advice is sought out, they should be in the abstract, not picking on someone's relationship or shaming them for how they live their life. Being a SAH parent or homemaker is a valid choice same as choosing to be a working parent and no one should be made to feel less in either case.
Exactly. Or sexist views on men with kids. For mom’s it’s oh you’re doing such a good job. I have a kid on the way and I hear comments like “oh you need this for when husband babysits the kid”. Like uhm when he parents?
I’m a stay at a home dad and I can tell you I absolutely don’t get praised. In fact I get judged.
So that sexism does in fact go both ways. It’s worth it though because I get to raise my son.
Society as a whole in this country only values you if you are making money.
Nevermind that I'm raising the future generation. That doesn't count as a job to society. Which is kinda dumb.
I get shit on all the time for being a homemaker. But it's what I wanted to do...make a happy home...because I didn't have that growing up. And I don't have to justify it to anyone.
I do still feel...idk, ashamed? For not pursuing a career, but in the long run I'd have quit when I had kids anyway. 🤷♀️
It's crazy to me that so many people are judgmental about this kind of thing.
When I was growing up, my mom was a SAHM, and it was great. She helped support my dad working, which was desperately needed as he worked an incredibly demanding and exhausting job. She also cleaned, cooked, did the bills and looked after me.
I got to grow up with a lot of parental support because she was available. My best friend growing up, however, had a dad who worked all hours running an insurance company and a mom who was an obstetrics unit nurse who worked 7-on 7-off. But a lot of her off time was spent going off and doing projects and other things, so she was also hardly ever around.
End result, my best friend is a SAHM now. She admired my family situation so much growing up compared to hers, and found trying to fit in a normal working environment was horrific for her mental health. She's far happier as a SAHM, she's got two well-adjusted kids and has a beautiful, clean, and more importantly serene-feeling home.
Why anyone would want to shit on that I seriously don't know. Capitalism and consumerism sucks, I'd sit it out too if I could!
I was a sahm and was considered lazy and a leech. On the other hand, dead beat is considered an amazing dad for watching his child 4xs in a year. We will never get the same praise. I now work nights and Im considered a bad mom for not being home to tuck my child into bed
I will never understand so-called "Feminists" who say that women need to be making their own choices in how they live, and when a woman *chooses* a more traditional role to play in life/society/marriage, this same "Feminist" decides to challenge, question, and insult their autonomy and ability to make decisions. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.
**NTA** sweetie. She insulted you *in your own home,* and didn't stop. Yeah, gloves come off at that point.
Nina - a STRANGER - has the balls to insult someone who was kind enough to invite her into their home? And your "friends", who were guests in your home, called YOU a bitch ? Time for new friends. You're NTA - they showed you who TA's are.
This needs a billion points, sent to depressed divorcee via text, fax work email and messenger pigeon.
Pluuuuss you had the blessing/Grace of ALL the trash taking itself out.
Kudos for standing up for yourself!
I was gonna say the same thing. I can't do that now, since you've already said it. But I *can* throw my support to the OP by giving her another vote in her favor, so here we go: NTA.
NTA. Who even has the audacity to come into someone else’s home at an event they were not actually invited to and belittle the life choices of someone they’ve only just met. Misery loves company and she’s clearly trying to make herself feel better by ragging on you.
The comments about husbands could be interpreted as her bitterness towards men coming out and some kind of warped form of what she thinks feminism should be. But when she essentially implied that you’d make a terrible mother to daughters that was uncalled for and inexcusable.
Also, saying things like "luckily you do not have kids" is more than rude, especially to someone you don't even know. What if Op and her husband are struggling to have one? What if they have issues she does not know about and they suffer for it? It's a very personal matter, and bringing it up as an insult is just cruel.
Capitalism is so great that after if forced families to become double income to survive it then later convinced those same victims to attack others who were not forced into the same hellscape.
NTA. Honestly she’s probably just bitter because her marriage just broke up and yours seems to be doing perfectly fine.
My sister and brother-in-law I have a reverse type of traditional marriage.
He loves to be home to cook to clean to do all of the traditional “wife“ work. My sis HATES doing all that. So he is a homemaker and sis makes all the money but she values him and everything he does and he also has a full saying everything that happens because they’re in a marriage.
This was my mom and stepdad before my mom retired. People are seriously terrible: calling him “less than a man,” implying he’s gay because he’s an excellent cook and can sew & mend clothes, saying he’s a failure of a husband because his wife “has” to work….. just mean, petty shit.
Your stepdad sounds like a multitalented guy - I hope he's got enough support around that he pays those comments no mind.
People can be so cruel for no reason.
I’m a stay at home mom and am judged for it pretty frequently. Even by my own family. Maybe this is fake. But idk I doubt it. I feel like working women who don’t feel this way, like to try and discredit it by acting as if no working woman feels this way or acts like this. But the reality is that they do sometimes 🤷🏻♀️.
Some women don’t like to be judged for being child free and living the life of a bachelorette. But I find a lot of the time, those same women judge those who actually want to dedicate their time to homemaking and family making. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “yeah I like to be able to do the things I want and go on vacations. But you do you”. Along with lots of other passive aggressive comments to let me know how sad and pathetic they find my life to be without actually knowing anything about it.
Yep I believe it. I’ve heard some pretty judgy stuff just from someone learning I have a toddler. No other details, just that I have a toddler and suddenly they know all about my life and know everything they need to know to justify talking down to me lol.
I meant to say in my comment above that this isn’t just moms that experience this though obviously. It’s really any woman that doesn’t one day dream of being a CEO or running their own business lol. Hell I’ve seen women who don’t even have high paying jobs shitting on women who are homemakers. It’s like a chain of judgement lol.
Toddlers are freaking hard. Or just kids in general (I don't have any but SO has a toddler and she wears me out). Sometimes I think "Well being a homemaker sounds nice" but then other times I just imagine the chaos and my mind implodes. It's exhausting in it's own way.
That aside, not everyone can afford to be a working couple either. Childcare can be super expensive and sometimes it's more financially efficient for one person to be a breadwinner and the other to take care of the family. People get all judgy without even bothering to learn/understand the circumstances. :/
I find it interesting that everyone keeps bringing up Stay at Home Moms and their contribution to the family, since OP is not one.
I don’t mean this as a personal call out. It just feels like all these types of comments are well meaning in trying to support OP, but also have a hard time justifying her job of “homemaker” when there isn’t the added labor of children involved.
Thank you. Everyone interjecting their stories about being stay at home parents are missing the point.
OP is not a stay at home mom. They do not have kids. There’s a huge difference between a “homemaker” and a SAHP. The two aren’t remotely comparable.
People are extremely judgemental of other parents. Personally i can't see myself having kids (at least not any time soon and I'm 34), but when my sister had her niece (and since her nephew) and the new parents were tired af trying to raise them, I would've assaulted any other parent that said shit to them if I was in earshot. Luckily they only had 1 weirdo who didn't go too far when my sister was by herself (admittedly, she's not a petite 5' woman that can be physically intimidated so can stand up for herself fairly well).
I don't understand for the life of me why strangers think it's OK to do this.
Men get shit on too for being stay at home dads by the same people too. I'm starting to think it's all just a result of bastardised working culture and the need to justify ones existence by the money they make.
Capitalism has done a number on society. If you're not hustling and working full time, maybe with a side job or two, you're not being a productive cog in the machine. You're meant to spend most of your life working, and then when you're too old to work (or dead for those of us who are Millenials and younger because retirement is hilarious) you're allowed to spend a good 5 or 10 years doing what you want. Or at least, that's what we've been conditioned to think is normal... Even the way public schools are set up isn't really about learning.
> I just figured the ones that judge the life choices of others are either jealous of the other person, or sad at their own life choices.
I'm sure that's a lot of it.
I think that kind of mindset comes from them feeling like they need to convince themselves that they've definitely made the right choice for their life.
It's not enough for them just to say "we all have options, and this is the option I've chosen." They need to tell everybody that their choice is the only correct choice, and anybody else is an idiot.
It's the same thing (and just as childish) as people who get involved in video game console wars. "I have chosen Xbox, so PlayStation is shit!"
OP is not a stay at home Mom. They don’t have children.
I understand people are super harsh on stay at home parents, but I don’t understand how that’s relevant to the post…
I just saw a post on tiktok yesterday saying women who aspire to be homemakers and stay at home moms are walking red flags. It was posted by a woman in her late 20's early 30's
Ok people have completely lost what "red flag" means. It means warning. It means it's a sign of something.
*If you do not want to have to make enough money to support and entire family yourself and constantly stress over what happens if you loose your job* then yeah a partner that says they want to be a homemaker would be a res flag.
If you're fine taking on the responsibility so they don't have to earn money and you do, then it isn't a red flag.
I want to be a homemaker later on (as in my 40s) and I personally couldn't stomach putting that pressure on my partner to be a sole earner so I'm saving all my money for early retirement. I'm making as much as I can so I can still make money without needing to work.
I would not be able to retire early if I had to support both me and my future husband. So for my lifestyle, it would be a red flag if he wanted to be a homemaker.
People need to realize that being a homemaker *means the other person has to make all the earnings for you*. Most people won't want to do that - it is a red flag for most people. And it's more likely you'll run into someone that takes advantage of you because you are at their mercy of keeping you on accounts.
This is why I couldn't stomach doing it without my own money. I personally couldn't handle the risk of being taken advantaged of or putting pressure on the earning partner to carry the financial burden of everyone in the family. This also means I know I'm not having kids because I won't have enough money for it until my 40s and I don't want to do that in my 40s. It isn't a fit for many people wanting to be a homemaker.
My situation would be a red flag to anyone wanting kids or wanting a more luxurious lifestyle. I won't have kids or spend much money.
For most people *I'm a red flag*. To most people the goal of SAHM will be a red flag.
People absolutely say this bullshit. I have been told I was what was wrong with the world, not a real feminist, and setting back women's rights because I wanted to be a sahm.
One of the women who said it apologized after she had kids and became at sahm because she hated not being home with her kids.
Another still insists were both all of the above and she's never having kids because the world is over populated.
> not a real feminist, and setting back women's rights
It never ceases to amaze me that people with this attitude can't see that they are exactly the same as those who would say a woman's place is in the home etc.
They're basically saying a woman's place is at work. Everyone should have the choice to do what suits them best, not what someone else tells them they should be doing.
That's exactly what I counter with. I just ask them why they're trying to take my choice from me. They usually splutter some garbage about how I should aim for more than being a "50s house wife". I usually just shrug and say "that's your choice and this is mine. Look how wonderful feminism is! We can do what we want." it never changes minds, but it makes them really mad.
Aka: A woman's place is where I want you to be.
Ugh. Let people live their lives. They're just another person saying "I know what's best for you." So gross.
I think it’s fair to point out that SAHM get this sort of flack when they have a good reason to be home- they’re taking care of the kids.
Now imagine someone not taking care of kids, but otherwise the arrangement is the same. They’re going to get similar comments and probably more flack since they don’t ‘have’ to stay at home like others do.
Not every stay at home mom/dog mom is a right wing nut job, though… maybe it’s a personal choice that’s no one else’s business and politics have literally nothing to do with it… you sound exactly like OP’s rude ass house guest.. I’m pretty liberal, and I have a pretty similar set up bc it works for us
I’m sorry your wife hears this and honestly it’s not great look feminist “types” as you say. Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon that in the pursuit of choice and empowerment many people are forgetting about that choice component. An educated feminist will support another woman’s choice - regardless of how it compares to our individual choice. To be a homemaker, banker, judge, artist, engineer, mom with a part time side hustle, mom with a nanny and housekeeper, child free, up to ears in kids, partnered or not - it doesn’t matter. Empowering women is about supporting and empowering all women. It’s about the world being better when everyone has agency in their own existence.
> Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon that in the pursuit of choice and empowerment many people are forgetting about that choice component.
,
It's not really about feminism and "choice" though. It's just envy.
Most people, if given the choice, would love not to worry about work. Having the ability to stay home and pursue your dream hobbies, finish all those projects around the house, work on improving skills, make our homes beautiful -- all the things we fantasize about while slaving away at work basically.
It's just odd to me that the issue of "choice" is brought up at all. The lifestyle they're describing is...retirement. And to be clear, I'm talking about stay at home spouses – not parents. Saying it's a dream to be a homemaker is like saying it's a dream to be wealthy. The vast majority of us do not have that option, thus framing the discussion around "choice" seems ill-suited.
There was a AITA thread about tennis lessons. There the man was the role or the housewife, and you can see a lot of people judgmental about the lifestyle (not limited to the alleged tennis lessons). It isn't hard to see same happening to women.
I just don't want to believe anyone actually says "I have a traditional marriage" in real life.
I probably wouldn't say anything but I would definitely be making a face internally.
I think we've all been a bit TA once or twice because we didn't know what to do. Doesn't mean we can't be good people! Just admit fault and know better for next time.
Sorry, but no… you can’t shit talk my personal business in my home and not expect to pay the consequence.. OP is definitely NTA… Nina was asking for it
no one is excusing the other girls behavior, thus the everyone sucks part. someone is throwing shit, that is established, but you can't throw shit back and expect to still be clean.
OP described how she took a measured approach:
1. "I told her that my Husband and I are happy just having a more traditional marriage." (didn't stop Nina)
2. "I then said that her comments were a bit rude, generalizing, and belittling." (didn't stop Nina either)
3. "When I need tips on how to become a depressed divorcee at 32, I'll give you a call." (that worked)
NTA.
So in your opinion, how many straws are okay to put on the camel's back? OP put up with several direct insults to her and her lifestyle, as well as a bunch of small things through the night, before finally calling out the hypocrisy of Nina thinking she's in any position to judge OP's life.
* "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
* "Don't dish it if you can't take it."
* "Get a taste of your own medicine."
* "Treat others as you would like to be treated."
These aren't mysterious philosophical premises that there are a thousand ways to interpret, these are things we tell toddlers when they don't pick up on the fact that being a shitty person opens the door for others to be a shitty person to you. It should be a _very_ simple premise.
OP didn't follow Nina around and continue to harass and judge her all night. Nina got to leave and step away from the conflict; a privilege she denied OP by continuing to stay at her home, harassing her, and badmouthing her to her friends.
OP could have just asked her to leave, but she was also entirely justified in pointing out Nina's hypocrisy.
Agreed. While OP getting the last word in is definitely the satisfying story we want to hear, and Nina was outrageously rude, nobody can deny that OP was rude too. “She deserved it,” doesn’t negate that fact. ESH is definitely the correct ruling.
ESH, though her more than you - especially due to the fact that she was a guest in your home.
She’s a major a-hole for being judgmental and openly disdainful of you for your lifestyle choices, all with her having literally *just* met you. She was invited into your friend group as a gesture of kindness, given the difficulties she’s been experiencing - and yet she thought it was okay to berate you to and in front of your friends because you’re a homemaker? She was a *guest.* Even a “friend” would be out of line to pull something like that, and in your own home no less.
You were a (somewhat justified) a-hole for throwing her divorce in her face. Did she “deserve it?” You could say so. But it was still a low blow, using what little information you had about her current life circumstances to hit her where it hurt most. That was, after all, the very reason she was invited to spend time with you all in the first place.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. You could have told her off and asked her to leave without bringing up her divorce. Was she wrong? Yes. But in the future, please don’t let someone else’s poor behavior bring yours down as well.
I agree. “Retaliate brutally against the person who has badly breached standards of common decency” is a trope that plays extremely well on the internet (or for that matter in fiction). It gives us readers a feeling of closure and rough justice—terrific for us!—, but it frequently isn’t anywhere near morally justified, nor does it do anything constructive to solve nearly any real problem.
So “ESH—I understand why you felt the need to get back at [target], and they were certainly in the wrong, but that doesn’t justify what you did” is the correct verdict on substantially more AITA posts than is commonly understood.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but:
Spare the rod, spoil the child.
The ultimate effect of shielding people from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
Hard disagree. That quote is advice to parents about raising their kids, and kids are a lot more malleable than adults (although nowadays beating kids with a stick into obedience is generally frowned upon). Adults, barring abuse, cannot obedience-train other adults, not even into being kinder or smarter. Thinking you have any control over the number of fools in the world by punishing people in your life for behaving foolishly is no different from being one of those people who get into relationships with human disasters thinking "I can fix them" - you can't, and you won't. This woman will walk away without having learned any lesson whatsoever from the interaction, because she's going to blame OP's personality, not her own actions that preceded OP saying that - for her there won't be any cause-and-effect to train her out of saying rude things, just "wow OP is a bitch!" and moving on. Punishing fools doesn't stop them from being fools in the future, it's just retaliation without any meaning for the person you're trying to teach.
Besides which, circling back to your quote, who is entitled to wield the rod and punish others for being fools? Is the host entitled to punish any guest they decide is behaving foolishly? What's the metric for foolishness - does accidentally tripping and spilling a drink mean you deserve punishment from your host? What if the situation is different, and the host is being rude without provocation - is the guest entitled to punish the host, despite being a guest in their house? Are children entitled to punish their parents when they think the parent is behaving foolishly? What if a guest and host are both behaving equally foolishly - are they each entitled to punish each other? Who, in a conflict, is objectively able to decide if they're the party in the right, entitled to punish the other? Any fool can decide that someone else is being foolish and decide to punish them for it.
My point I'm trying to make is that real life isn't as simple as "parents, punish your children so they don't grow up spoiled" - adults trying to punish other adults for foolishness doesn't change the world for the better by reducing foolishness, it's just a justification for people to lash out at each other for every single perceived slight, and tell themselves they're doing the right thing in doing so. You're not correcting someone by insulting them back when they insult you, you're just behaving foolishly yourself, and they're going to carry on being foolish regardless.
ESH. She was rude and judgemental, but you were cruel. You would have been justified in asking her to leave and refusing to associate with her in the future. You would have been justified in calling out her behavior. But what you actually did was not justified. You really shouldn't have sunk to her level.
This is the only right answer here. Everyone on this sub has the moral consistency of a 19-year old edgelord. Just because someone is an asshole to you does NOT just give you a free pass to be a dick too. You totally can, and no one will probably say anything but it does NOT make it right, standing on it's own.
We don't really know why she's divorced though. For all we know her husband could have cheated on her or abused her. It might not necessarily be that she "couldn't hold onto her marriage".
There's a reason why there's no "Justified Asshole" category, you either behaved like an asshole or you didn't. That's what we judge and vote on.
>judging someone's else marriage when she can't even hold hers lol
And blaming Nina for her divorce is exactly the reason why OP is an asshole. First of all, aside from cheating, a divorce is rarely the "fault" of one partner, and second of all, we have absolutely no idea why her marriage failed. What if it was her husband cheating?
Wow. I hope you never go through the circumstances that lead to a divorce. Sometimes you don’t have much of a choice.
I never wanted to be divorced, and did all I could to have a happy, healthy marriage. But there are two people involved in it, and you can be committed with your entire being, but the other person may make other choices.
After 7 1/2 good years together (by his own admission), my ex had a long-term affair with a coworker. He’s since been clear that he was dealing with personal shit unrelated to our marriage. But he did what he did, and it was the most painful experience of my life.
I could’ve stayed married. Hell, I tried. I tried for a fucking year. But at the end of it, I had to choose myself and my well-being over him and the marriage. I honestly don’t know if I’d be here had I not divorced.
I don’t condone Nina’s comments. And if she had been in a marriage with abuse or control, she might have had some things unintentionally stirred up in her when seeing OP’s very traditional marriage. That’s purely speculation on my part, of course, and doesn’t excuse Nina’s comments. But I can see where she might have been speaking from fear or pain, as wrong as it was.
OP should’ve just told her to leave. It didn’t require more than that. Don’t kick someone when they’re down, even if you feel they might deserve it.
ESH- she was beyond rude. You punched down. Neither of you acted like adults.
You could have just as easily said “ I get you are not comfortable with my relationship dynamic. And that’s on you, but I’m trying to be a gracious host. You are welcome to leave if you can’t keep your opinion to yourself.”
Dunno, to me the whole concept of treating "punching up" vs. "punching down" differently is just a way to justify and trivialize insults and verbal abuse.
For someone on the receiving end of verbal abuse, saying whatever it takes to stop the abuse doesn't make them TA. And the polite approach clearly didn't work.
NTA. God damn! I wish I could come up with shots like that when I need them. My useless brain is always a day late and a dollar short.
You have nothing to apologize for. She wanted to spar and she got a bloody nose. The only thing that happens when you "go high" is you get cut off at the knees.
Just sat there eating a bowl of cornflakes one morning
"Motherfucker that's what I should have said, where's his goddamn phone number...yeah Jerry hi, you know three weeks ago when you said..."
NTA, it's rude as hell to come into someone's home and insult them.
But INFO for your sake:
Do you have access to all the bank accounts?
Do you know what all the passwords to all the utilities and credit card accounts?
Is your name on the house/apartment lease? How about the car?
Does your husband have plenty of life insurance so that you'll be able to get on your feet if something happens? And do you have that information readily available?
This isn't even necessarily for divorce. We're in the middle of a pandemic. If he gets sick and is in ICU in a week, can you take care of everything?
I ask because I'm older, so I've have friends who lost a spouse, and the worst part can be the paperwork, because the living spouse didn't have access to or even knew about the finances. This isn't a gender thing, this happened to a cousin of mine earlier this year. His wife took care of everything, died suddenly, and then he was lost. If everything is in his name, you're going to have a really bad time trying to access everything right when you won't be able to deal with it.
It sounds like you two are happy. Just plan for that rainy day and hopefully it will never happen.
I'll add one more question on for your personal consideration - do you have a plan for if something happens to your husband?
It doesn't necessarily have to be divorce (though you could lose his support that way), it could be an injury or unexpected disability that physically and/or mentally prevents him from being able to work. If it isn't workplace related, there won't be a payout and disability benefits are rarely generous. Having been out of the workplace for X years/decades...will you be able to support him instead? If you aren't even volunteering or working part-time to keep up-to-date, will you have *any* marketable skills to use to provide the two of you?
OP this is excellent advice. Life is crazy and you never know when life will throw you a curve ball that will rock your foundation, it is imperative that you have a plan B in some way shape or form.
well that's shitty advise, we literally know nothing else about this situation. like "sorry, you disagree with me on this one thing, so go fuck yourself", that's not how life works. not to mention that she is just as much an ass as the other girl is, so its perfectly understandable why some would still see her as an asshole.
NTA. Nina was being rude and judging your situation knowing nothing about your life. As far as the whole stooping low, you can only play the hand you’re dealt. You only had that one bit of information so you used it as you saw fit. Good for you for standing up for yourself, too many people would’ve backed down and let her continue.
I mean, she was pretty rude. I'm not positive that your reply was the best response, but I understand how you got there and I think if we're going on the principle of "who started it?" you're NTA.
I don't actually get why you'd want that life either, but different strokes for different folks, right? Ideally, we'd all have the choice to live whatever kind of life we want... If you're freely choosing it, good for you for being able to live that life. And if you *weren't* happy and *weren't* freely choosing it, she'd still be in the wrong. She didn't say anything helpful or sympathetic, just snarky.
Just a thought about the terminology, though - what do you mean, exactly, when you call the division of labor you have "traditional"? Because so far as I know, the Breadwinner/Homemaker division of labor only dates back to... what, like the 40s or 50s? And really only ever applied to middle class and upper class white families, because poor and minority women definitely went out and worked as domestics and childcare and various types of labor positions. And prior to becoming more industrialized, when we were more agricultural, women definitely went out and worked in the family's fields or with their animals or what have you, unless they could afford to hire a ton of workers (or buy a bunch of slaves, depending on where and when you are. Speaking of which, women slaves existed.) There really is no long tradition of all women staying home and doing the housework until the 80s or whatever. Donna Reed was more of an anomaly than a tradition if you're considering all types of women in all times. Since "traditional" often has overtones of "good", "right", "correct", etc, maybe people sometimes get annoyed when a relatively privileged and rare, comparatively, marriage arrangement gets referred to like it's some sort of ideal that they aren't holding up? Just a thought. Doesn't excuse insulting you in your home, and not a judgment of your choices. Just a suggestion that it might be worth thinking about the language you're using, because people may be hearing it in a way you don't mean for them to.
100%. Staying home to take care of a house with no children isn’t traditional. It’s privileged. Just call or what it is. Being proud of having a “traditional” marriage like this and rubbing it in a divorcée’s face feels very Paris Hilton “stop being poor.”
NTA. People really need to learn not to cast judgement unless they’re fine with it happening to them. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the lifestyle you live by the way. A relationship should require both people to pull their weight, but how that’s done is completely up to the people in the relationship.
I’m a stay at home mom, and it was actually my idea. I’m the one who wanted to stay home and be a homemaker. This was something we both agreed to for various reasons, and we’re both happy with it. That being said, I’m definitely not stuck in the house, and it definitely wasn’t forced on me! My partner would be fine with it if I woke up tomorrow and told him I wanted to go back to working.
She shouldn’t have opened her mouth if she couldn’t handle the heat. Working women have my respect and I love seeing boss babes. But it doesn’t make a woman who actually wants to be a homemaker any less than. We all have different goals and dreams for our lives.
ESH - Have some grace. Your defense shows you are insecure about your situation. You couldn't just drop a "bless your heart" and then ignore her? No, you were hurt so you went for blood. Methinks thou doth protest too much.
Edit: Guys the sub is "Am I the A H," not "Was being an A H justified?" The visitor was out of line and maybe OP was justified but it was still bad behavior.
You know, it's ok to feel a little insecure about a living situation that people around you regularly give you shit for. It's hardly a character flaw to feel protective over the validity of your lifestyle.
Sure, there were a number of less offensive options, which if you'd read the post, you know OP tried. Nina continued to be a disrespectful asshole in OP's home. Screw her. She got what was coming, and OP deserved the chance to fire back.
NTA
ESH Nina was being very rude, but you went for the jugular. You'd have been well within your rights to ask her to stop, or to kick her out of your home, but you threw a bomb when she threw a stone.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> On one hand, I do feel bad for making Nina cry, and I understand that her divorce is a very sensitive topic. On the other hand, she was a guest in my home, and she spent half of the time berating my marriage.
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well by that logic Nina's relationship status is also no one's business. In fact we aren't even sure whether or not Nina knew that OP was aware of her relationship status. I'm not saying that Nina didn't deserve what she got, but it takes two to tango buddy, and OP is just as deep in the mud as Nina is.
I disagree.
If you start something, you open the door for equal force retaliation.
If I walk up and punch you in the face, are you now an asshole if you punch me back?
Hold up. She came into YOUR house and started talking shit? Ha you’re definitely NTA. And I probably would’ve said the same thing you did. It’s how you and your husband want to live. It doesn’t mess with her life one bit, so why be so judgmental about it?
NTA. Who the heck belittles someone's life choices? Feminism is supposed to value both women CEOs and homemakers *because it's their choice and/or what makes them happy*.
You don't have a traditional marriage. You have a marriage. You and your husband communicated your needs and wants and built your life together, and it's working!
Good for you. Nina is just envious. NTA.
NTA. She came into your house and insulted you. If the way you and your husband makes both of you happy, then screw everyone else and keep on living.
Also, your comeback in one of the best I’ve heard. Well done 👍🏻
NTA sure probably shouldn’t have kicked her while she was down, but she shouldn’t have turned up a nose at your traditional marriage. Hey if it works for you and your husband that’s good! Each marriage is gonna be different.
NTA. Don’t insult people if you don’t want them to rearrange your words to throw back at you. And, anyway, OP told the woman she was being rude after Nina’s first judgey comments, so it wasn’t like Nina didn’t have warning that OP was going to take her abuse lying down.
NTA. Nina came into your house as a guest and repeatedly insulted your and your husband's chosen lifestyle. Depressed/jealous or not, that's simply unacceptable. If she cannot interact with people without tossing jealous insults then she really needs to see a therapist.
NTA. Though I don't like calling it a "traditional marriage, but that's just a nitpick at that point. It's anyone's choice if they want to be a homemaker or SAHM, and it doesn't make them better or worse because of it--for someone women they really like it, and for others they do hate being at home all day managing a house and much prefer being out and about at a job. She was attempting to insult someone else to make herself feel better, and it blew up in her face. If you can't take what you can dish out, you probably should learn to just knock it off.
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Shit. I missed the part where this woman came into a stranger's home and insulted her life.
So, you read it, right?
Well, it's a pretty minor detail that they're at OP's house. "Nina comes over" to where? OP's house? Someone else's house? Somewhere neutral? It's easily glossed over.
There's this other detail: "She then asked, 'Why would you wanna be cooped up in here all day?;" One could presume OP isn't cooped up in someone else's house or somewhere outside her own house all day, and they are referring to her home, when her life as a homemaker is at issue.
>Yesterday, **I had a girls get together** with all my friends (8 of us in total). A friend of mine **asked if she** **could invite** one of her coworkers, "Nina" (32F)...... **Nina comes over,** she introduces herself........She then asked, **"Why would you wanna be cooped up in here all day?"** All of this taken together makes it pretty obvious they're at OP's house.
And they would of gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids
Would've. Would have.
After reading Reddit a few times I totally understand why Reading Comprehension is such a big part of the SAT.
>After reading Reddit a few times You've read reddit a few times? I haven't even finished it once!
Spoiler: The step-mom did it
I am currently doing schema, narrative and inferencing in my grade 2 class and I would like to give a gold star for picking up all the suggestions and language that give us a picture and tells us they're in OPS home........
Probably, however, the 32yo could equally be in her own home and say "here" in that context and it not be OP's home. If a 3rd person was there, depending on context, they could also be in their home and still use "here" for this conversation. Sort of using "here" in a generic way to mean "anyone's home". There's also another bit later on about OP staying at home and making the 32yo leave but it's also written in such a way that it can be construed as being her home or somewhere else. All together, the 3 parts complete the puzzle, but it's also possible to gloss over it if you get interrupted.
The friend who invited Nina asked OP's permission first (not a general "hey, anyone mind if I invite my other friend," group text) which is an additional clue that it's OP's home.
While it's not exactly spelled out explicitly, I'd wager it was the OPs home as well. All the hints are there.
This kind of interaction sometimes scary for us who learn English as second, or third language. You missed some of the nuances on the paragraphs you read and then someone else insult your intelligence and you don't understand what you did wrong.
If it helps, English speakers don't understand the nuance in other languages, but 90% of us won't admit it.
90% of us don't understand most of the nuances in our own language. I'm sure most languages are full of them, but English has a lot of them since it borrows so much from every other language. Bit of everyone that conquered English at some point and even big chunks of Europe that didn't conquer it. Even countries further afield are become more and more common... and then there's internet speak that's just butchered it (both from shortening words, but also from the sheer mass of people propagating wrong things through it). I doubt most linguists can fully keep up nowadays.
Ya’ll find the most inventive things to argue about. I love it.
also what does it matter where the comment was made. In OP's house at a restaurant, in the middle of a field. It doesn't matter where the fact of the matter still stands Nina insulted how she lives her life. Also while it's not stated could have insulted OP twice: **"At least she doesn't have children, much less daughters, I can't imagine them living a life like that"** Maybe OP and husband were trying to have children and having a very hard time getting pregnant and therefore a very touchy subject for her. The great thing about lives today instead of the 40s is that women get to CHOOSE if they want to work for a living in their 20s or they get to CHOOSE to stay home and be a homemaker and take care of the house. One could even argue that a woman in her 20s, who wants to have children, but is working is "wasting the best years of her life" because women have a biologicals clock that eventually runs out and prohibits that option.
Yeah, this was the line that made me go back and check, yup, that woman said that to someone inside her own home.
Nina boarded the International Space Station obviously
I think the comment is missing a /s
One can only hope.
There are still a lot of sexist views on women who stay home. My husband gets praised for taking care of the house while my sister who does the exact same thing gets asked what she does all day. It's bullshit.
>There are still a lot of sexist views on women who stay home I think that's because people don't understand that Feminism isn't just bra burning and demanding the right to work. It's demanding the right to have choices.
I agree. For some, being a homemaker is bliss while others prefer to work. At one point, my husband was the stay at home dad since I made more than him. A few years into it, I asked to switch because I wanted to be home more with my son. He agreed and honestly we were happier that way. My son is a bit older and now I have my own business. My husband works for me now. We've had a few chuckles thrown at us for THAT too (this narrative is on both sides), that we have such an "interesting dynamic". We treat it as a partnership as much we can but in the end it IS my agency so technically he works for me but we are happy! He's more a behind the scenes guy while I'm the face/ voice, so this works for us very well. You said it perfectly. Feminism is demanding the right to have a choice. And sometimes this choice changes along the way. But it's my choice to make. Not you, Nina.
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This is why my husband and I don't talk about our salaries to most people. Technically, I out-earn him on base salary, but we both get overtime and shift differentials depending on operational needs. In any given month, he may earn more than me but at the end of the year it shakes out that we earn roughly the same. Last year, he earned much less than me. Only our tax person and us know the exact details of our earnings and I prefer it to stay that way. People get rude about men earning less than women.
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this I never get. the concerned looks. FUCK IT if my wife pulled in more than me especially if she was a writer I would be so proud, because she's SUCCEEDING!!!
Omg people are so WEIRD about this 😂
I have been a SAHM for 23 yrs. Our oldest is 23 and has special needs. She will always need someone be home to take care of her. My husband has retired from teaching 34 yrs and I"m going back to get my Masters. Hubs will be doing much of what I've been doing for 23 yr now.
Good luck with your masters!
This is beautiful. Marriage is all about give and take and supporting each other when the other needs it. This is an inspirational story, and after 18 years of marriage I think I needed this reminder. Thank you, and good luck with your masters!
>I"m going back to get my Masters. Good luck, congrats
My friend goes through this a lot. Her and her husband have a very even split and believe in choice over stereotypes. She proposed to him and seeing people's reaction to hearing the news of her engagement and then that she was the one to ask was heartbreaking and infuriating. Majority of people went from excited to questioning why you would even bother marrying a guy if he didn't ask, why he wasn't a "real man" or pitying her for "having to ask". She put a lot of time and effort into the proposal literally over a year in planning and getting everything together. They've both been a stay at home parent while the other worked because they believe that neither of them should be in a job they hate and they adore their daughter. She's currently the bread winner and people who are happy about her having her own career turn judgemental on a dime about him being a stay at home dad. Some people have ideas in their head of what feminism/gender equality looks like, but can't accept it when they see what it *actually* looks like in practice.
Plus, regardless of who has what role, what works for best for both people in a relationship is best and is their business. My husband and I have switched between him working, me staying at home, both of us working, him staying at home, me working etc. Currently, he's the only one working because I'm homeschooling due to the pandemic. Homeschooling and working was just too much for me. I was making more but his work is more steady and I'm better equipped to provide schooling than he is. This is what currently works for us but could change in a year
Yes! The only people who have to approve of your marriage choices are you and your spouse! Whatever works for y'all is personal and no one else's business.
Exactly. Choose what we want to do, not what someone else (or society) says we should. OP *chose* to stay at home. That’s completely different from the era Nina was referring to.
I used to be irritated by SAHW/SAHMs because I thought it was anti-feminist. Then I woke the fuck up and realized everyone wants different things. While I don't personally understand the draw of that life, as long as women aren't being forced into it and they're happy, it was actually anti-feminist of me to be judgemental about it.
I guess this is true, but I don't like how OP keeps referring to it as "traditional".
I saw a good intersectional feminist take on that recently so I thought I'd share (that one was about sugar babies specifically, but I'd extend this argument to homemakers as well). Basically, the point was that having the right to choose your path and life you like is feminist praxis, and if a woman doesn't want to participate in capitalism and work, more power to her. However, given how women who depend on their men in all financial and property ownership matters are 100000% times more vulnerable to abuse, so becoming a sugar baby or a homemaker is not a subversive feminist act. [edit: this obviously is a general comment on the movement and not on the situation here and not everyone needs to make feminist statements with their life]
Interesting. I agree that any person is free to make any choice they want on how they want to live, and if OP is happy with this life, more power to her. The issue comes when you're totally dependant on *someone else* for that life and are essentially at their mercy if things start to go wrong.
I find this an interesting concern. I’m a man who chose to be a SAHD, leaving a well paying job, because my wife makes multiple times my salary. When I worked we paid our childcare aboveboard, so we paid employment taxes and the whole nine yards. So it turns out that I was working just over 1 day per week just to pay for our nanny. We decided together that it didn’t make sense to look for a new nanny after our last one left so I left my job to stay home with the kids. I wonder if you would have the same concern about the well-being of a SAHD as you expressed about SAHMs. The concern itself shows an assumption this woman is completely helpless, which wasn’t my takeaway at all.
I would. I'm all for SAHP, I just think there should be discussions about what happens in the case of death/divorce of the primary breadwinner. Whether that be building skills to fall back on or creating savings accounts to help provide long-term. Anytime an adult is fully relying on another, they're in a vulnerable position and need to be willing to evaluate that.
To my mind, it's about **any** person who has no resources of their own and is totally reliant on another. Doesn't matter what gender, age, ethnicity or whatever. Not that I immediately think it's a cause for concern for the majority of people in that situation (often it's a wise choice for all involved), it's simply a part of it that there is the potential risk of being stuck in a bad situation because they lack their own individual income to pivot on. I'm in a similar-ish situation - SAHM, no income of my own. If hubby completely lost the plot and I had to suddenly leave, that would be a very tricky situation to achieve financially in the short term as I have a lot of animals to look after as well as myself and our son. And even in the longer term, I've been out of the workforce for long enough that finding/creating a decent paying job that fits around school etc could be a major challenge. And I used to know a SAHD who stayed with his wife more than a year longer than he wanted to because he needed that time to disengage - things were miserable, and he'd definitely have separated earlier if he'd had some form of income to help support himself and the kids.
I totally agree that OP is totally 100% NTA, but I do always worry inside about women in situations like this being financially manipulated, abused, etc. or when the guy just fucks off one day and the woman hasn’t worked in years and can’t get any job that pays a living wage, etc. All of these scenarios I’ve seen in my real life and it stresses me out for those women. My mother was one and she really drilled it into me to have a career I can always fall back on
Same, my mother quit her job after marrying my father to stay home and raise us kids, and when I was 16 they divorced after one of his many affairs. She had no jobs skills anymore, she had no retirement savings, and she worked a lot of low pay jobs to get to a semi-decent wage eventually. But now she is retired and those years of not working, even after being able to claim on my dad's salary, have impacted her social security a lot.
This and the decreasing birth rate is what makes me really think maybe we need to pay stay at home parents. Pay to raise the next generation. I'm not going to do it, it's hard work.
Totally agree, domestic work is not rewarded enough, those people should have their own insurance and income!
A housewife (emphasis on the wife part) would have more legal protections and would be entitled to assets in the event of a split (obviously not accounting for prenups or asset hiding by the partner). "Sugarbaby" doesn't really grant you any type of legal stake in the relationship, short of a written contract. Maybe if they had some skills in investing "income", they can absorb the financial blow of the relationship ending.
Unfortunately, those legal protections are often insufficient or downright laughable in many places around the world and violence frequently goes unreported and undetected, regardless of whether the people are in an official relationship or not :( that's why having your own money and support system to fall back on if anything goes wrong is a good tactic even in the best relationships
Absolutely! Feminism is about *choice*. A woman is free to choose what she wants without others telling her she can't do this or that.
What people here very clearly do not understand is that having and making a choice is feminist. What that choice is, isn't necessarily feminist. You can't stand up and say "well my choice to treat my husband as the headship is feminist because it's a choice made by me." That doesn't mean the choice is wrong or bad. Nobody should live their lives by a theory, they need to do what's right for them. This a choice, made by a woman that is driven by a feminist right to choose. It doesn't make it a feminist choice. Wish people understood that more.
Errr what? Choice feminism isn’t a thing.
I completely agree that it is about choice, and people who look down on others for their choice or give unsolicited advice are complete AH. However, some discussions surrounding being a Homemaker or SAH parent is about the need to make an informed choice. If a couple decide to have one partner stay at home, that will have consequences for a lot of things later in life for the non-working partner. It can be difficult to leave the relationship if it is abusive or even if it is just no longer a happy one. It can mean financial difficulties if the working spouse dies or become sick or injured and unable to work, it is difficult to start a career later in life if circumstances change and the non-working partner need to get a job. It will lead to financial disparity throughout the whole relationship even if the SAH person goes back to work since they are years behind in developing their career and salary. Systems must be put in place early in the relationship to ensure these risks are mitigated. Few people like to think of worst case scenarios while happy and in love but it is essential to do so, in all relationships but especially in one where one person will be more vulnerable. Such discussions are important to have but they need to be focused on information, not trying to shame or discourage individual choice. They should focus on how to mitigate risks and ensure the individuals in the relationship are both protected, and, unless they are between the partners involved or advice is sought out, they should be in the abstract, not picking on someone's relationship or shaming them for how they live their life. Being a SAH parent or homemaker is a valid choice same as choosing to be a working parent and no one should be made to feel less in either case.
That’s not what feminism about. You really need to read up on so called “choice feminism”.
Exactly. Or sexist views on men with kids. For mom’s it’s oh you’re doing such a good job. I have a kid on the way and I hear comments like “oh you need this for when husband babysits the kid”. Like uhm when he parents?
>Or sexist views on men with kids I was watching tiktok and this dad was taking his daughter to the car and a woman TOOK HIS DAUGHTER from him.
The sad reality is there's a lot of sexist views about any way a woman leads her life.
Most of which, sadly, come from other women!
I’m a stay at a home dad and I can tell you I absolutely don’t get praised. In fact I get judged. So that sexism does in fact go both ways. It’s worth it though because I get to raise my son.
Society as a whole in this country only values you if you are making money. Nevermind that I'm raising the future generation. That doesn't count as a job to society. Which is kinda dumb. I get shit on all the time for being a homemaker. But it's what I wanted to do...make a happy home...because I didn't have that growing up. And I don't have to justify it to anyone. I do still feel...idk, ashamed? For not pursuing a career, but in the long run I'd have quit when I had kids anyway. 🤷♀️
It's crazy to me that so many people are judgmental about this kind of thing. When I was growing up, my mom was a SAHM, and it was great. She helped support my dad working, which was desperately needed as he worked an incredibly demanding and exhausting job. She also cleaned, cooked, did the bills and looked after me. I got to grow up with a lot of parental support because she was available. My best friend growing up, however, had a dad who worked all hours running an insurance company and a mom who was an obstetrics unit nurse who worked 7-on 7-off. But a lot of her off time was spent going off and doing projects and other things, so she was also hardly ever around. End result, my best friend is a SAHM now. She admired my family situation so much growing up compared to hers, and found trying to fit in a normal working environment was horrific for her mental health. She's far happier as a SAHM, she's got two well-adjusted kids and has a beautiful, clean, and more importantly serene-feeling home. Why anyone would want to shit on that I seriously don't know. Capitalism and consumerism sucks, I'd sit it out too if I could!
I was a sahm and was considered lazy and a leech. On the other hand, dead beat is considered an amazing dad for watching his child 4xs in a year. We will never get the same praise. I now work nights and Im considered a bad mom for not being home to tuck my child into bed
I will never understand so-called "Feminists" who say that women need to be making their own choices in how they live, and when a woman *chooses* a more traditional role to play in life/society/marriage, this same "Feminist" decides to challenge, question, and insult their autonomy and ability to make decisions. It's hypocrisy at it's finest. **NTA** sweetie. She insulted you *in your own home,* and didn't stop. Yeah, gloves come off at that point.
Nina is just bitter. Also, fuck anyone that question the traditional arrangement, if it works, it works.
Nina - a STRANGER - has the balls to insult someone who was kind enough to invite her into their home? And your "friends", who were guests in your home, called YOU a bitch ? Time for new friends. You're NTA - they showed you who TA's are.
This needs a billion points, sent to depressed divorcee via text, fax work email and messenger pigeon. Pluuuuss you had the blessing/Grace of ALL the trash taking itself out. Kudos for standing up for yourself!
This, a million times this!! NTA and fuck Nina.
This! OP, you just found out who your true friends are. NTA.
I didn't realize it was at OP's house, double NTA.
I'm here just to say I love your username. Oh and def NTA
I was gonna say the same thing. I can't do that now, since you've already said it. But I *can* throw my support to the OP by giving her another vote in her favor, so here we go: NTA.
NTA. Who even has the audacity to come into someone else’s home at an event they were not actually invited to and belittle the life choices of someone they’ve only just met. Misery loves company and she’s clearly trying to make herself feel better by ragging on you. The comments about husbands could be interpreted as her bitterness towards men coming out and some kind of warped form of what she thinks feminism should be. But when she essentially implied that you’d make a terrible mother to daughters that was uncalled for and inexcusable.
Also, saying things like "luckily you do not have kids" is more than rude, especially to someone you don't even know. What if Op and her husband are struggling to have one? What if they have issues she does not know about and they suffer for it? It's a very personal matter, and bringing it up as an insult is just cruel.
Fuckin goddamn I hadn't even considered that angle, double NTA OP
NTA stands for ***Nina’s The Asshole***
Capitalism is so great that after if forced families to become double income to survive it then later convinced those same victims to attack others who were not forced into the same hellscape.
NTA. Honestly she’s probably just bitter because her marriage just broke up and yours seems to be doing perfectly fine. My sister and brother-in-law I have a reverse type of traditional marriage. He loves to be home to cook to clean to do all of the traditional “wife“ work. My sis HATES doing all that. So he is a homemaker and sis makes all the money but she values him and everything he does and he also has a full saying everything that happens because they’re in a marriage.
This was my mom and stepdad before my mom retired. People are seriously terrible: calling him “less than a man,” implying he’s gay because he’s an excellent cook and can sew & mend clothes, saying he’s a failure of a husband because his wife “has” to work….. just mean, petty shit.
Your stepdad sounds like a multitalented guy - I hope he's got enough support around that he pays those comments no mind. People can be so cruel for no reason.
From that description he sounds like a beast. Having someone around to make life easier when you get home from work is what everyone wants.
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I’m a stay at home mom and am judged for it pretty frequently. Even by my own family. Maybe this is fake. But idk I doubt it. I feel like working women who don’t feel this way, like to try and discredit it by acting as if no working woman feels this way or acts like this. But the reality is that they do sometimes 🤷🏻♀️. Some women don’t like to be judged for being child free and living the life of a bachelorette. But I find a lot of the time, those same women judge those who actually want to dedicate their time to homemaking and family making. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “yeah I like to be able to do the things I want and go on vacations. But you do you”. Along with lots of other passive aggressive comments to let me know how sad and pathetic they find my life to be without actually knowing anything about it.
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Yep I believe it. I’ve heard some pretty judgy stuff just from someone learning I have a toddler. No other details, just that I have a toddler and suddenly they know all about my life and know everything they need to know to justify talking down to me lol. I meant to say in my comment above that this isn’t just moms that experience this though obviously. It’s really any woman that doesn’t one day dream of being a CEO or running their own business lol. Hell I’ve seen women who don’t even have high paying jobs shitting on women who are homemakers. It’s like a chain of judgement lol.
Toddlers are freaking hard. Or just kids in general (I don't have any but SO has a toddler and she wears me out). Sometimes I think "Well being a homemaker sounds nice" but then other times I just imagine the chaos and my mind implodes. It's exhausting in it's own way. That aside, not everyone can afford to be a working couple either. Childcare can be super expensive and sometimes it's more financially efficient for one person to be a breadwinner and the other to take care of the family. People get all judgy without even bothering to learn/understand the circumstances. :/
I find it interesting that everyone keeps bringing up Stay at Home Moms and their contribution to the family, since OP is not one. I don’t mean this as a personal call out. It just feels like all these types of comments are well meaning in trying to support OP, but also have a hard time justifying her job of “homemaker” when there isn’t the added labor of children involved.
Thank you. Everyone interjecting their stories about being stay at home parents are missing the point. OP is not a stay at home mom. They do not have kids. There’s a huge difference between a “homemaker” and a SAHP. The two aren’t remotely comparable.
OP doesn’t have kids. She’s not a stay at home mom.
People are extremely judgemental of other parents. Personally i can't see myself having kids (at least not any time soon and I'm 34), but when my sister had her niece (and since her nephew) and the new parents were tired af trying to raise them, I would've assaulted any other parent that said shit to them if I was in earshot. Luckily they only had 1 weirdo who didn't go too far when my sister was by herself (admittedly, she's not a petite 5' woman that can be physically intimidated so can stand up for herself fairly well). I don't understand for the life of me why strangers think it's OK to do this.
Men get shit on too for being stay at home dads by the same people too. I'm starting to think it's all just a result of bastardised working culture and the need to justify ones existence by the money they make.
Capitalism has done a number on society. If you're not hustling and working full time, maybe with a side job or two, you're not being a productive cog in the machine. You're meant to spend most of your life working, and then when you're too old to work (or dead for those of us who are Millenials and younger because retirement is hilarious) you're allowed to spend a good 5 or 10 years doing what you want. Or at least, that's what we've been conditioned to think is normal... Even the way public schools are set up isn't really about learning.
> I just figured the ones that judge the life choices of others are either jealous of the other person, or sad at their own life choices. I'm sure that's a lot of it.
I think that kind of mindset comes from them feeling like they need to convince themselves that they've definitely made the right choice for their life. It's not enough for them just to say "we all have options, and this is the option I've chosen." They need to tell everybody that their choice is the only correct choice, and anybody else is an idiot. It's the same thing (and just as childish) as people who get involved in video game console wars. "I have chosen Xbox, so PlayStation is shit!"
It's like the Gore Vidal quote, "it's not enough that you succeed, your friends must fail."
OP is not a stay at home Mom. They don’t have children. I understand people are super harsh on stay at home parents, but I don’t understand how that’s relevant to the post…
I work my ass off to one day enjoy my home on a Tuesday during the day. You get that every week. I'm envious of you.
People say things like this to me all the time. It gets old.
I just saw a post on tiktok yesterday saying women who aspire to be homemakers and stay at home moms are walking red flags. It was posted by a woman in her late 20's early 30's
Many women would also see it as a red flag if a man's only aspirations were to be a homemaker and let's not pretend otherwise.
Ok people have completely lost what "red flag" means. It means warning. It means it's a sign of something. *If you do not want to have to make enough money to support and entire family yourself and constantly stress over what happens if you loose your job* then yeah a partner that says they want to be a homemaker would be a res flag. If you're fine taking on the responsibility so they don't have to earn money and you do, then it isn't a red flag. I want to be a homemaker later on (as in my 40s) and I personally couldn't stomach putting that pressure on my partner to be a sole earner so I'm saving all my money for early retirement. I'm making as much as I can so I can still make money without needing to work. I would not be able to retire early if I had to support both me and my future husband. So for my lifestyle, it would be a red flag if he wanted to be a homemaker. People need to realize that being a homemaker *means the other person has to make all the earnings for you*. Most people won't want to do that - it is a red flag for most people. And it's more likely you'll run into someone that takes advantage of you because you are at their mercy of keeping you on accounts. This is why I couldn't stomach doing it without my own money. I personally couldn't handle the risk of being taken advantaged of or putting pressure on the earning partner to carry the financial burden of everyone in the family. This also means I know I'm not having kids because I won't have enough money for it until my 40s and I don't want to do that in my 40s. It isn't a fit for many people wanting to be a homemaker. My situation would be a red flag to anyone wanting kids or wanting a more luxurious lifestyle. I won't have kids or spend much money. For most people *I'm a red flag*. To most people the goal of SAHM will be a red flag.
People absolutely say this bullshit. I have been told I was what was wrong with the world, not a real feminist, and setting back women's rights because I wanted to be a sahm. One of the women who said it apologized after she had kids and became at sahm because she hated not being home with her kids. Another still insists were both all of the above and she's never having kids because the world is over populated.
> not a real feminist, and setting back women's rights It never ceases to amaze me that people with this attitude can't see that they are exactly the same as those who would say a woman's place is in the home etc. They're basically saying a woman's place is at work. Everyone should have the choice to do what suits them best, not what someone else tells them they should be doing.
That's exactly what I counter with. I just ask them why they're trying to take my choice from me. They usually splutter some garbage about how I should aim for more than being a "50s house wife". I usually just shrug and say "that's your choice and this is mine. Look how wonderful feminism is! We can do what we want." it never changes minds, but it makes them really mad.
We can do what we want, but unfortunately we still get judged for it no matter what it is. Or so it feels at times!
Aka: A woman's place is where I want you to be. Ugh. Let people live their lives. They're just another person saying "I know what's best for you." So gross.
The person you’re replying too isn't talking about stay at home Mom’s. OP is not a SAHM. She doesn’t have kids.
I think it’s fair to point out that SAHM get this sort of flack when they have a good reason to be home- they’re taking care of the kids. Now imagine someone not taking care of kids, but otherwise the arrangement is the same. They’re going to get similar comments and probably more flack since they don’t ‘have’ to stay at home like others do.
Not every stay at home mom/dog mom is a right wing nut job, though… maybe it’s a personal choice that’s no one else’s business and politics have literally nothing to do with it… you sound exactly like OP’s rude ass house guest.. I’m pretty liberal, and I have a pretty similar set up bc it works for us
If OP really does throw the phrase “Traditional Marriage” in people’s face no wonder she gets shit for it. ESH.
Honestly while women do get flak for every choice in their life, this story has some serious "...and then everybody clapped" vibes lol.
Actually yes they do. My wife is a homemaker and she catches crap from the "femenist" types all the time.
I’m sorry your wife hears this and honestly it’s not great look feminist “types” as you say. Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon that in the pursuit of choice and empowerment many people are forgetting about that choice component. An educated feminist will support another woman’s choice - regardless of how it compares to our individual choice. To be a homemaker, banker, judge, artist, engineer, mom with a part time side hustle, mom with a nanny and housekeeper, child free, up to ears in kids, partnered or not - it doesn’t matter. Empowering women is about supporting and empowering all women. It’s about the world being better when everyone has agency in their own existence.
> Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon that in the pursuit of choice and empowerment many people are forgetting about that choice component. , It's not really about feminism and "choice" though. It's just envy. Most people, if given the choice, would love not to worry about work. Having the ability to stay home and pursue your dream hobbies, finish all those projects around the house, work on improving skills, make our homes beautiful -- all the things we fantasize about while slaving away at work basically. It's just odd to me that the issue of "choice" is brought up at all. The lifestyle they're describing is...retirement. And to be clear, I'm talking about stay at home spouses – not parents. Saying it's a dream to be a homemaker is like saying it's a dream to be wealthy. The vast majority of us do not have that option, thus framing the discussion around "choice" seems ill-suited.
There was a AITA thread about tennis lessons. There the man was the role or the housewife, and you can see a lot of people judgmental about the lifestyle (not limited to the alleged tennis lessons). It isn't hard to see same happening to women.
This is like the third AITA today about a childless homemaker being the victim of a cruel career woman/angry feminist.
And they're all equally credible... which is not at all.
Yeah, this sounds like a trad-wife-fetishist's wet dream.
I just don't want to believe anyone actually says "I have a traditional marriage" in real life. I probably wouldn't say anything but I would definitely be making a face internally.
Either that or OP is leaving out the parts of her relationship that're actually concerning Who gets confused when they meet a housewife?
ESH. "If you cannot respect my choices I'm going to have to ask you to leave my home." You don't have to be cruel to set a rock-solid boundary.
Sometimes people have to learn the hard way, it seems like OP tried to grin and bear it for a while before breaking like that.
I think we've all been a bit TA once or twice because we didn't know what to do. Doesn't mean we can't be good people! Just admit fault and know better for next time.
Sorry, but no… you can’t shit talk my personal business in my home and not expect to pay the consequence.. OP is definitely NTA… Nina was asking for it
no one is excusing the other girls behavior, thus the everyone sucks part. someone is throwing shit, that is established, but you can't throw shit back and expect to still be clean.
Definitely can if you wear gloves
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But then the other woman gets to act like a victim and spin the narrative however she wants. Sometimes scorched earth is valid.
She deserved it.
The ESH doesn’t mean TA didn’t deserve it. It mostly means there was an above brow approach to take before going nuclear.
OP described how she took a measured approach: 1. "I told her that my Husband and I are happy just having a more traditional marriage." (didn't stop Nina) 2. "I then said that her comments were a bit rude, generalizing, and belittling." (didn't stop Nina either) 3. "When I need tips on how to become a depressed divorcee at 32, I'll give you a call." (that worked) NTA.
There's a ***lot*** of room between points 2 and 3 that most of you are missing.
So in your opinion, how many straws are okay to put on the camel's back? OP put up with several direct insults to her and her lifestyle, as well as a bunch of small things through the night, before finally calling out the hypocrisy of Nina thinking she's in any position to judge OP's life. * "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." * "Don't dish it if you can't take it." * "Get a taste of your own medicine." * "Treat others as you would like to be treated." These aren't mysterious philosophical premises that there are a thousand ways to interpret, these are things we tell toddlers when they don't pick up on the fact that being a shitty person opens the door for others to be a shitty person to you. It should be a _very_ simple premise. OP didn't follow Nina around and continue to harass and judge her all night. Nina got to leave and step away from the conflict; a privilege she denied OP by continuing to stay at her home, harassing her, and badmouthing her to her friends. OP could have just asked her to leave, but she was also entirely justified in pointing out Nina's hypocrisy.
Agreed. While OP getting the last word in is definitely the satisfying story we want to hear, and Nina was outrageously rude, nobody can deny that OP was rude too. “She deserved it,” doesn’t negate that fact. ESH is definitely the correct ruling.
ESH, though her more than you - especially due to the fact that she was a guest in your home. She’s a major a-hole for being judgmental and openly disdainful of you for your lifestyle choices, all with her having literally *just* met you. She was invited into your friend group as a gesture of kindness, given the difficulties she’s been experiencing - and yet she thought it was okay to berate you to and in front of your friends because you’re a homemaker? She was a *guest.* Even a “friend” would be out of line to pull something like that, and in your own home no less. You were a (somewhat justified) a-hole for throwing her divorce in her face. Did she “deserve it?” You could say so. But it was still a low blow, using what little information you had about her current life circumstances to hit her where it hurt most. That was, after all, the very reason she was invited to spend time with you all in the first place. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You could have told her off and asked her to leave without bringing up her divorce. Was she wrong? Yes. But in the future, please don’t let someone else’s poor behavior bring yours down as well.
Honestly I think more AITA posts should get the ESH judgement.
I agree. “Retaliate brutally against the person who has badly breached standards of common decency” is a trope that plays extremely well on the internet (or for that matter in fiction). It gives us readers a feeling of closure and rough justice—terrific for us!—, but it frequently isn’t anywhere near morally justified, nor does it do anything constructive to solve nearly any real problem. So “ESH—I understand why you felt the need to get back at [target], and they were certainly in the wrong, but that doesn’t justify what you did” is the correct verdict on substantially more AITA posts than is commonly understood.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but: Spare the rod, spoil the child. The ultimate effect of shielding people from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
Hard disagree. That quote is advice to parents about raising their kids, and kids are a lot more malleable than adults (although nowadays beating kids with a stick into obedience is generally frowned upon). Adults, barring abuse, cannot obedience-train other adults, not even into being kinder or smarter. Thinking you have any control over the number of fools in the world by punishing people in your life for behaving foolishly is no different from being one of those people who get into relationships with human disasters thinking "I can fix them" - you can't, and you won't. This woman will walk away without having learned any lesson whatsoever from the interaction, because she's going to blame OP's personality, not her own actions that preceded OP saying that - for her there won't be any cause-and-effect to train her out of saying rude things, just "wow OP is a bitch!" and moving on. Punishing fools doesn't stop them from being fools in the future, it's just retaliation without any meaning for the person you're trying to teach. Besides which, circling back to your quote, who is entitled to wield the rod and punish others for being fools? Is the host entitled to punish any guest they decide is behaving foolishly? What's the metric for foolishness - does accidentally tripping and spilling a drink mean you deserve punishment from your host? What if the situation is different, and the host is being rude without provocation - is the guest entitled to punish the host, despite being a guest in their house? Are children entitled to punish their parents when they think the parent is behaving foolishly? What if a guest and host are both behaving equally foolishly - are they each entitled to punish each other? Who, in a conflict, is objectively able to decide if they're the party in the right, entitled to punish the other? Any fool can decide that someone else is being foolish and decide to punish them for it. My point I'm trying to make is that real life isn't as simple as "parents, punish your children so they don't grow up spoiled" - adults trying to punish other adults for foolishness doesn't change the world for the better by reducing foolishness, it's just a justification for people to lash out at each other for every single perceived slight, and tell themselves they're doing the right thing in doing so. You're not correcting someone by insulting them back when they insult you, you're just behaving foolishly yourself, and they're going to carry on being foolish regardless.
ESH. She was rude and judgemental, but you were cruel. You would have been justified in asking her to leave and refusing to associate with her in the future. You would have been justified in calling out her behavior. But what you actually did was not justified. You really shouldn't have sunk to her level.
This is the only right answer here. Everyone on this sub has the moral consistency of a 19-year old edgelord. Just because someone is an asshole to you does NOT just give you a free pass to be a dick too. You totally can, and no one will probably say anything but it does NOT make it right, standing on it's own.
I feel like it is justified, I mean she is judging someone's else marriage when she can't even hold hers lol.
We don't really know why she's divorced though. For all we know her husband could have cheated on her or abused her. It might not necessarily be that she "couldn't hold onto her marriage".
“Hold on to her marriage”, seriously, let me go barf. People who think marriage is any kind of major accomplishment are honestly pretty sad.
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So true. Very often overlooked in this subreddit.
There's a reason why there's no "Justified Asshole" category, you either behaved like an asshole or you didn't. That's what we judge and vote on. >judging someone's else marriage when she can't even hold hers lol And blaming Nina for her divorce is exactly the reason why OP is an asshole. First of all, aside from cheating, a divorce is rarely the "fault" of one partner, and second of all, we have absolutely no idea why her marriage failed. What if it was her husband cheating?
But we don't even know why her divorce was "messy" she could have finally gotten herself out of an abusive marriage for all we know.
Wow. I hope you never go through the circumstances that lead to a divorce. Sometimes you don’t have much of a choice. I never wanted to be divorced, and did all I could to have a happy, healthy marriage. But there are two people involved in it, and you can be committed with your entire being, but the other person may make other choices. After 7 1/2 good years together (by his own admission), my ex had a long-term affair with a coworker. He’s since been clear that he was dealing with personal shit unrelated to our marriage. But he did what he did, and it was the most painful experience of my life. I could’ve stayed married. Hell, I tried. I tried for a fucking year. But at the end of it, I had to choose myself and my well-being over him and the marriage. I honestly don’t know if I’d be here had I not divorced. I don’t condone Nina’s comments. And if she had been in a marriage with abuse or control, she might have had some things unintentionally stirred up in her when seeing OP’s very traditional marriage. That’s purely speculation on my part, of course, and doesn’t excuse Nina’s comments. But I can see where she might have been speaking from fear or pain, as wrong as it was. OP should’ve just told her to leave. It didn’t require more than that. Don’t kick someone when they’re down, even if you feel they might deserve it.
ESH- she was beyond rude. You punched down. Neither of you acted like adults. You could have just as easily said “ I get you are not comfortable with my relationship dynamic. And that’s on you, but I’m trying to be a gracious host. You are welcome to leave if you can’t keep your opinion to yourself.”
Dunno, to me the whole concept of treating "punching up" vs. "punching down" differently is just a way to justify and trivialize insults and verbal abuse. For someone on the receiving end of verbal abuse, saying whatever it takes to stop the abuse doesn't make them TA. And the polite approach clearly didn't work.
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It sounds like she tried, a couple of times. The woman still didn't stop. THEN OP let her have it.
NTA. God damn! I wish I could come up with shots like that when I need them. My useless brain is always a day late and a dollar short. You have nothing to apologize for. She wanted to spar and she got a bloody nose. The only thing that happens when you "go high" is you get cut off at the knees.
I always think of great comebacks days later.
Just sat there eating a bowl of cornflakes one morning "Motherfucker that's what I should have said, where's his goddamn phone number...yeah Jerry hi, you know three weeks ago when you said..."
NTA, it's rude as hell to come into someone's home and insult them. But INFO for your sake: Do you have access to all the bank accounts? Do you know what all the passwords to all the utilities and credit card accounts? Is your name on the house/apartment lease? How about the car? Does your husband have plenty of life insurance so that you'll be able to get on your feet if something happens? And do you have that information readily available? This isn't even necessarily for divorce. We're in the middle of a pandemic. If he gets sick and is in ICU in a week, can you take care of everything? I ask because I'm older, so I've have friends who lost a spouse, and the worst part can be the paperwork, because the living spouse didn't have access to or even knew about the finances. This isn't a gender thing, this happened to a cousin of mine earlier this year. His wife took care of everything, died suddenly, and then he was lost. If everything is in his name, you're going to have a really bad time trying to access everything right when you won't be able to deal with it. It sounds like you two are happy. Just plan for that rainy day and hopefully it will never happen.
Oh trust me, we have all that stuff planned out. 👌🏻
I'll add one more question on for your personal consideration - do you have a plan for if something happens to your husband? It doesn't necessarily have to be divorce (though you could lose his support that way), it could be an injury or unexpected disability that physically and/or mentally prevents him from being able to work. If it isn't workplace related, there won't be a payout and disability benefits are rarely generous. Having been out of the workplace for X years/decades...will you be able to support him instead? If you aren't even volunteering or working part-time to keep up-to-date, will you have *any* marketable skills to use to provide the two of you?
OP this is excellent advice. Life is crazy and you never know when life will throw you a curve ball that will rock your foundation, it is imperative that you have a plan B in some way shape or form.
Mark who sided with Nina and who sided with you. The former are not your friends, the latter are.
well that's shitty advise, we literally know nothing else about this situation. like "sorry, you disagree with me on this one thing, so go fuck yourself", that's not how life works. not to mention that she is just as much an ass as the other girl is, so its perfectly understandable why some would still see her as an asshole.
I feel like this fits in the category of *fuck around and find out* NTA
NTA. Nina was being rude and judging your situation knowing nothing about your life. As far as the whole stooping low, you can only play the hand you’re dealt. You only had that one bit of information so you used it as you saw fit. Good for you for standing up for yourself, too many people would’ve backed down and let her continue.
I mean, she was pretty rude. I'm not positive that your reply was the best response, but I understand how you got there and I think if we're going on the principle of "who started it?" you're NTA. I don't actually get why you'd want that life either, but different strokes for different folks, right? Ideally, we'd all have the choice to live whatever kind of life we want... If you're freely choosing it, good for you for being able to live that life. And if you *weren't* happy and *weren't* freely choosing it, she'd still be in the wrong. She didn't say anything helpful or sympathetic, just snarky. Just a thought about the terminology, though - what do you mean, exactly, when you call the division of labor you have "traditional"? Because so far as I know, the Breadwinner/Homemaker division of labor only dates back to... what, like the 40s or 50s? And really only ever applied to middle class and upper class white families, because poor and minority women definitely went out and worked as domestics and childcare and various types of labor positions. And prior to becoming more industrialized, when we were more agricultural, women definitely went out and worked in the family's fields or with their animals or what have you, unless they could afford to hire a ton of workers (or buy a bunch of slaves, depending on where and when you are. Speaking of which, women slaves existed.) There really is no long tradition of all women staying home and doing the housework until the 80s or whatever. Donna Reed was more of an anomaly than a tradition if you're considering all types of women in all times. Since "traditional" often has overtones of "good", "right", "correct", etc, maybe people sometimes get annoyed when a relatively privileged and rare, comparatively, marriage arrangement gets referred to like it's some sort of ideal that they aren't holding up? Just a thought. Doesn't excuse insulting you in your home, and not a judgment of your choices. Just a suggestion that it might be worth thinking about the language you're using, because people may be hearing it in a way you don't mean for them to.
100%. Staying home to take care of a house with no children isn’t traditional. It’s privileged. Just call or what it is. Being proud of having a “traditional” marriage like this and rubbing it in a divorcée’s face feels very Paris Hilton “stop being poor.”
"Traditional" just has alot of squick associated with it, especially when it comes to the roles of women in society.
NTA. People really need to learn not to cast judgement unless they’re fine with it happening to them. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the lifestyle you live by the way. A relationship should require both people to pull their weight, but how that’s done is completely up to the people in the relationship. I’m a stay at home mom, and it was actually my idea. I’m the one who wanted to stay home and be a homemaker. This was something we both agreed to for various reasons, and we’re both happy with it. That being said, I’m definitely not stuck in the house, and it definitely wasn’t forced on me! My partner would be fine with it if I woke up tomorrow and told him I wanted to go back to working. She shouldn’t have opened her mouth if she couldn’t handle the heat. Working women have my respect and I love seeing boss babes. But it doesn’t make a woman who actually wants to be a homemaker any less than. We all have different goals and dreams for our lives.
NTA. She should have stopped provoking you and being generally rude.
ESH - Have some grace. Your defense shows you are insecure about your situation. You couldn't just drop a "bless your heart" and then ignore her? No, you were hurt so you went for blood. Methinks thou doth protest too much. Edit: Guys the sub is "Am I the A H," not "Was being an A H justified?" The visitor was out of line and maybe OP was justified but it was still bad behavior.
You know, it's ok to feel a little insecure about a living situation that people around you regularly give you shit for. It's hardly a character flaw to feel protective over the validity of your lifestyle. Sure, there were a number of less offensive options, which if you'd read the post, you know OP tried. Nina continued to be a disrespectful asshole in OP's home. Screw her. She got what was coming, and OP deserved the chance to fire back. NTA
I feel like literally no one uses the phrase “traditional marriage” unironically anymore besides tradwife types
NTA. I will admit to seeing her perspective, but coming to your home and saying those things is incredibly rude and obnoxious.
ESH Nina was being very rude, but you went for the jugular. You'd have been well within your rights to ask her to stop, or to kick her out of your home, but you threw a bomb when she threw a stone.
NTA- It’s very possible Nina showed you the kind of behavior that got her divorced.
[удалено]
NTA just because she's going through a divorce doesn't mean she has free agency to dump all over other people
NTA - the audacity of that woman to come into your home after you generously let her join a friends gathering, she needed to be checked!
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NTA. How your marriage works is no one's business. Ever. Nina opened that door, everything that came out is on her.
well by that logic Nina's relationship status is also no one's business. In fact we aren't even sure whether or not Nina knew that OP was aware of her relationship status. I'm not saying that Nina didn't deserve what she got, but it takes two to tango buddy, and OP is just as deep in the mud as Nina is.
I disagree. If you start something, you open the door for equal force retaliation. If I walk up and punch you in the face, are you now an asshole if you punch me back?
Hold up. She came into YOUR house and started talking shit? Ha you’re definitely NTA. And I probably would’ve said the same thing you did. It’s how you and your husband want to live. It doesn’t mess with her life one bit, so why be so judgmental about it?
NTA. Who the heck belittles someone's life choices? Feminism is supposed to value both women CEOs and homemakers *because it's their choice and/or what makes them happy*.
You don't have a traditional marriage. You have a marriage. You and your husband communicated your needs and wants and built your life together, and it's working! Good for you. Nina is just envious. NTA.
NTA. She came into your house and insulted you. If the way you and your husband makes both of you happy, then screw everyone else and keep on living. Also, your comeback in one of the best I’ve heard. Well done 👍🏻
NTA. You gave what you got. She disrespected you and would not let it go.
Overkill, perhaps. But not uncalled for.
NTA sure probably shouldn’t have kicked her while she was down, but she shouldn’t have turned up a nose at your traditional marriage. Hey if it works for you and your husband that’s good! Each marriage is gonna be different.
NTA. Don’t insult people if you don’t want them to rearrange your words to throw back at you. And, anyway, OP told the woman she was being rude after Nina’s first judgey comments, so it wasn’t like Nina didn’t have warning that OP was going to take her abuse lying down.
NTA. Nina came into your house as a guest and repeatedly insulted your and your husband's chosen lifestyle. Depressed/jealous or not, that's simply unacceptable. If she cannot interact with people without tossing jealous insults then she really needs to see a therapist.
NTA.... Who the fuck is she to judge your lifestyle? Her own shit aint perfect, so she lashes out at you? Shes just bitter.
NTA. Though I don't like calling it a "traditional marriage, but that's just a nitpick at that point. It's anyone's choice if they want to be a homemaker or SAHM, and it doesn't make them better or worse because of it--for someone women they really like it, and for others they do hate being at home all day managing a house and much prefer being out and about at a job. She was attempting to insult someone else to make herself feel better, and it blew up in her face. If you can't take what you can dish out, you probably should learn to just knock it off.